So you want to move to Europe: a reality check

[mm1970]

If northern latitudes are a problem, you can always set up shop in one of the overseas regions and still be in Europe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union

Options include atolls in the Pacific, a bunch of Caribbean islands, other rocks in the Atlantic and Indian oceans. And none of them have kelp like Santa Barbara.

Kelp and tar!

[Hula Hoop]

Just go someplace if it interests you. But: learn the language! Even 10 words. Be polite. Without that . . . .you're just being rude.
And pay attention to what you really find, not to your expectations.
It's really fascinating to see different ways to live, speak, eat, and so on. Vive la différence!

This reminded me of my pet peeve: it is important to adapt your politeness to the local customs. In large parts of Northern Europe this means: don't bother people. Do not talk to strangers. Be quiet in public. When seated at a meal; reach over and get your own salt instead of asking other people to pass it to you (or live without the salt). If people offer you something (coffee, dinner, a service); decline at least twice before accepting, and make sure to say "I'm sorry to be such a bother" or "I don't want to be a bother". When talking: keep short and precise, and do not add unnecessary filler words like "please" and "thank you". If you want to offer your seat at the bus to a pregnant woman or other person who looks like they need it, don't embarrass them by pointing this out loudly. Just get out of the seat and let them have it, maybe with some slight body language like raising your eyebrows or clearing your throat.

Behaving like this in rural UK, on the other hand... not a good idea.

Lol, I'm from a Danish family and thought I was a total weirdo until I started learning about my own cultural background and realized that almost all of my strangeness is just that I have a lot of Scandinavian behaviours, which can be very out of place in Canada where "polite" has a very, very different meaning.

On the flip side, I'm way too Canadian to fit in with Scandinavians. My Finish friends just roll their eyes and mutter "talking..." whenever I say more than two or three sentences within a 20 minute period. I adore Finish humour.

This is strange to me as one of my parents is a Scandinavian immigrant and always taught me to say "please" and "thank you" and "can you please pass the salt?"  Also loves to talk.  Maybe been in the US too long?  I remember some weird table manners as a kid like having to wait until everyone was seated before even raising a fork and an obsession with not putting elbows on the table.

[Christof]

I remember some weird table manners as a kid like having to wait until everyone was seated before even raising a fork and an obsession with not putting elbows on the table.

Actually, that is still good manners here and is what we teach kids. You don't start eating (which includes picking up your fork), before everyone else is ready and your elbow doesn't have to rest on a table. But you can eat as quickly as you want. In other countries you should only finish after the elderly finished. Different countries, different rules. Northern Germany here, which is closer to Scandinavian countries than to Bavaria.

[Metalcat]

Just go someplace if it interests you. But: learn the language! Even 10 words. Be polite. Without that . . . .you're just being rude.
And pay attention to what you really find, not to your expectations.
It's really fascinating to see different ways to live, speak, eat, and so on. Vive la différence!

This reminded me of my pet peeve: it is important to adapt your politeness to the local customs. In large parts of Northern Europe this means: don't bother people. Do not talk to strangers. Be quiet in public. When seated at a meal; reach over and get your own salt instead of asking other people to pass it to you (or live without the salt). If people offer you something (coffee, dinner, a service); decline at least twice before accepting, and make sure to say "I'm sorry to be such a bother" or "I don't want to be a bother". When talking: keep short and precise, and do not add unnecessary filler words like "please" and "thank you". If you want to offer your seat at the bus to a pregnant woman or other person who looks like they need it, don't embarrass them by pointing this out loudly. Just get out of the seat and let them have it, maybe with some slight body language like raising your eyebrows or clearing your throat.

Behaving like this in rural UK, on the other hand... not a good idea.

Lol, I'm from a Danish family and thought I was a total weirdo until I started learning about my own cultural background and realized that almost all of my strangeness is just that I have a lot of Scandinavian behaviours, which can be very out of place in Canada where "polite" has a very, very different meaning.

On the flip side, I'm way too Canadian to fit in with Scandinavians. My Finish friends just roll their eyes and mutter "talking..." whenever I say more than two or three sentences within a 20 minute period. I adore Finish humour.

This is strange to me as one of my parents is a Scandinavian immigrant and always taught me to say "please" and "thank you" and "can you please pass the salt?"  Also loves to talk.  Maybe been in the US too long?  I remember some weird table manners as a kid like having to wait until everyone was seated before even raising a fork and an obsession with not putting elbows on the table.

My point was not that Scandinavians aren't polite, but that what's considered polite by one culture can be very different from another. Danes have all sorts of politeness rules that are easy to mess up as a foreigner, but they do not have a word for "please".

As for the talking thing, not all Nordic cultures are the same, the Danes are much more chatty than the Finns on average. I mean...everyone is.

ETA: I also want to clarify what I meant by saying that my Danish upbringing makes me rather off putting in Canada. It's not a lack of manners, it's because Danish humour involves openly laughing at others when they do something embarrassing. It's not mean, it's part of not taking yourself seriously, but it can be received as cruel and rude here.

I just tell people I'm this way because I have 4 brothers and they let it slide, but really, it's because I have a distinctly Danish sense of humour.

[Imma]

Just go someplace if it interests you. But: learn the language! Even 10 words. Be polite. Without that . . . .you're just being rude.
And pay attention to what you really find, not to your expectations.
It's really fascinating to see different ways to live, speak, eat, and so on. Vive la différence!

This reminded me of my pet peeve: it is important to adapt your politeness to the local customs. In large parts of Northern Europe this means: don't bother people. Do not talk to strangers. Be quiet in public. When seated at a meal; reach over and get your own salt instead of asking other people to pass it to you (or live without the salt). If people offer you something (coffee, dinner, a service); decline at least twice before accepting, and make sure to say "I'm sorry to be such a bother" or "I don't want to be a bother". When talking: keep short and precise, and do not add unnecessary filler words like "please" and "thank you". If you want to offer your seat at the bus to a pregnant woman or other person who looks like they need it, don't embarrass them by pointing this out loudly. Just get out of the seat and let them have it, maybe with some slight body language like raising your eyebrows or clearing your throat.

Behaving like this in rural UK, on the other hand... not a good idea.

Lol, I'm from a Danish family and thought I was a total weirdo until I started learning about my own cultural background and realized that almost all of my strangeness is just that I have a lot of Scandinavian behaviours, which can be very out of place in Canada where "polite" has a very, very different meaning.

On the flip side, I'm way too Canadian to fit in with Scandinavians. My Finish friends just roll their eyes and mutter "talking..." whenever I say more than two or three sentences within a 20 minute period. I adore Finish humour.

This is strange to me as one of my parents is a Scandinavian immigrant and always taught me to say "please" and "thank you" and "can you please pass the salt?"  Also loves to talk.  Maybe been in the US too long?  I remember some weird table manners as a kid like having to wait until everyone was seated before even raising a fork and an obsession with not putting elbows on the table.

I studied in Finland and many people talked way more than the stereotype. A lot of them were very happy about meeting a visitor to their country because it's not a typical tourist destination. Young people generally speak English very well. But they don't do small talk and they speak slow and with intent. They are really, really proud of their country and they love to talk about that.  liked that Finns have the same weird humour as Dutch people. Very dark and sarcastic. And they don't take themselves that seriously.

I was taught the same table manners as you, growing up in the Netherlands, to me they don't sound weird. Hands always on the table, elbows off. Didn't know that wasn't universal.

I remember my fellow student Giovanni from Italy hated it there.  He thought everyone was rude and cold and all the food was disgusting. Giovanni was the first Italian I got to know well and he definitely fit the stereotype. It was interesting to see those cultures clash. The natural behaviour of an Italian is just so different from that of a Finn. Physically, they get much closer to you, the voice is louder, they use a lot more words.

[norajean]

In terms of latitude northern Alaska is roughly where europe ends to the (northern Norway) at roughly the 71 degree parallell.

The southernmost point in Alaska is south of where I live in Southern England. The southern edge of Hudson Bay in Canada is slightly to the South of London.  Western Europe would be a very different place without the Gulf Stream.

Northernmost Norway is about 80 deg north, not 71.

Alaska extends from 71N to about 50N in the south.  50N in Europe would run through Luxembourg and Prague.

Alaska runs from about 130W to 172E longitude, about 58 deg longitude.   That would get you from the western tip of Europe in Lisbon all the way across Europe and the Black Sea to Baku in the Caspian.

If you really want to escape reality, Alaska may be a better choice than Europe. The number of freaks up there attests to this, as demonstrated in dozens of reality shows, the most of any state.

[PDXTabs]

Yup. The way I typically think about it is that the northernmost point in the USA is Northwest Angle Inlet in Lake of the Woods, Minnesota 49°23′04.1″N 95°9′12.2″W. The southernmost point in Scotland is Mull of Galloway, Wigtownshire at 54°38′N 4°52′W.

[RetiredAt63]

Yup. The way I typically think about it is that the northernmost point in the USA is Northwest Angle Inlet in Lake of the Woods, Minnesota 49°23′04.1″N 95°9′12.2″W. The southernmost point in Scotland is Mull of Galloway, Wigtownshire at 54°38′N 4°52′W.

I'm at 45.42^oN, you are making me feel quite tropical.  No frost forecast for the next week!

[habanero]

Northernmost Norway is about 80 deg north, not 71.

Yes, if you include Svalbard, an archipelago way up north. For all practical purposes you can't just move to Svalbard, however, so does not really count in this context;) Mainland stops around 71.

[Hula Hoop]

I remember my fellow student Giovanni from Italy hated it there.  He thought everyone was rude and cold and all the food was disgusting. Giovanni was the first Italian I got to know well and he definitely fit the stereotype. It was interesting to see those cultures clash. The natural behaviour of an Italian is just so different from that of a Finn. Physically, they get much closer to you, the voice is louder, they use a lot more words.

Yeah, there are a lot of things that are considered really rude and uncouth here in Italy that are totally fine in Scandinavia and other parts of Europe.  For example, getting tipsy or drunk is absolutely beyond the pale here.  Whereas when I've travelled in northern Europe (Finland is an example - the drinking is scary there) and also in my parent's home country of Sweden getting quite tipsy is normal (if you can afford it).  There are even "booze cruises" full of Swedes and Finns in the Baltic sea. 

Obviously, there are alcoholics here in Italy like anywhere else - but for a "normal" person to drink more than 1-2 glasses of wine at one time is considered really shocking.  But northern European tourists drink like fish here as the wine is so cheap.  Meanwhile, they don't realize how disapproving all the Italians are as Italians are usually really polite and being direct is also considered rude.

I can imagine an Italian not liking Finland.  I spent a week in Helsinki and wasn't a fan.  Apart from the scary drinking, the food was crazy expensive and kind of blah although the fish seemed quite nice though (being a half Swede I love all things fishy).  But I was travelling by myself and people weren't friendly and one bus driver was really rude to me.  Maybe I just had bad luck.  I enjoyed the sauna though.

[habanero]

The differences between northern and southern Europe are pretty big in many ways. And this runs pretty deep and goes way back, one of the main divides in Europe is between the mainly catholic south and the mainly protestant north. Obviously the differences are getting eroded, but they do run pretty deep. One of the places it shows is how important family is considered for example. Multi-generational homes are pretty common in southern Europe, up here in the north it barely exists.

The gender employment gap is another. In Italy it's around 20 percentage points, the EU average is around 12 (same as Spain), in Sweden and Finland it's 4.

[Hula Hoop]

The differences between northern and southern Europe are pretty big in many ways. And this runs pretty deep and goes way back, one of the main divides in Europe is between the mainly catholic south and the mainly protestant north. Obviously the differences are getting eroded, but they do run pretty deep. One of the places it shows is how important family is considered for example. Multi-generational homes are pretty common in southern Europe, up here in the north it barely exists.

The gender employment gap is another. In Italy it's around 20 percentage points, the EU average is around 12 (same as Spain), in Sweden and Finland it's 4.

On the other hand, the gender wage gap in Italy, where i live, is much smaller than in many Northern European countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where part time work for women is the norm so women tend to get stuck in low paid "mommy track" jobs.  https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/gender-equality/equal-pay/gender-pay-gap-situation-eu_en

Anecdotally, as a full time working mother and bread winner, no one has ever commented negatively or given me any kind of flack for this here in Italy.  When I have visited friends and family in northern Europe, however, I've had people act shocked that I've always worked full time (apart from my maternity leaves) and that our children have always been in full time childcare with my husband usually being the 'on call' parent as his work was more flexible and I'm the higher earner.  This is not noteworthy here. 

[norajean]

Northernmost Norway is about 80 deg north, not 71.

Yes, if you include Svalbard, an archipelago way up north. For all practical purposes you can't just move to Svalbard, however, so does not really count in this context;) Mainland stops around 71.

Au contraire, it is easier to move to Svalbard than Europe for Americans.  The US signed the Svalbard Treaty which means any American is free to move there. The Norwegians request you be self-supporting, but if you are FIRE that is no issue.  It's not that different to Alaska as a place to live, so if we include Alaska we include Svalbard.

[habanero]

Au contraire, it is easier to move to Svalbard than Europe for Americans.  The US signed the Svalbard Treaty which means any American is free to move there. The Norwegians request you be self-supporting, but if you are FIRE that is no issue.  It's not that different to Alaska as a place to live, so if we include Alaska we include Svalbard.

Svalbard is a community not really supporting the full life-cycle. Its a place you move to work and when your work is done you leave pretty much. Pregnant women tend to travel to the mainland when due date is near as there is only sort of a hospital at Svalbard, A lot of the housing is company-owned so it can be very, very hard to find a place to live. The housing shortage is so severe even people with jobs have to move back to the mainland because they cannot find a place to live.

I'd bet its way, way easier to move to (and live in) Alaska than Svalbard.

[Christof]

On the other hand, the gender wage gap in Italy, where i live, is much smaller than in many Northern European countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where part time work for women is the norm so women tend to get stuck in low paid "mommy track" jobs. 

In Germany it depends on where you live. The Eastern states have high female employment and full time daycare for up to 98% of all kids. In the Western states part time or SAHMs are way more common with the worst actually being the Southern states like Bavaria where in some areas you only get day care for four hours a day and mothers are expected to stay at home.

[Shane]

As an immigrant to the US, I find that I can totally assimilate in the US. Friends of mine who have migrated elsewhere in Europe and Australia, that is not the case. My friend in Germany has married a German and is still considered a foreigner.

The melting pot in the US is still very active and my kids are very American. They are considered by their peers as American, albeit a brown skinned American of Indian origin. Prime example is Kamala Harris, child of an Indian mother and Jamaican father who is the VP candidate from the Democratic party.

@CowboyAndIndian Just curious. How do you think assimilation might work in the reverse? If my wife and I, as White Americans, were to move to India and raise our White children there, would our children be able to assimilate to Indian society? Would they be "considered by their peers as" Indian?

[Hula Hoop]

On the other hand, the gender wage gap in Italy, where i live, is much smaller than in many Northern European countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where part time work for women is the norm so women tend to get stuck in low paid "mommy track" jobs. 

In Germany it depends on where you live. The Eastern states have high female employment and full time daycare for up to 98% of all kids. In the Western states part time or SAHMs are way more common with the worst actually being the Southern states like Bavaria where in some areas you only get day care for four hours a day and mothers are expected to stay at home.

That makes sense as I was on vacation a couple of years ago in Bavaria (Nuremberg) and I was amazed at the ingrained gender roles there compared to where I live here in Italy. It was similar when we visited friends (with kids) who live in the Netherlands. near Amsterdam Almost all the mothers seemed to work part time but not the dads. With the expected effect on their earnings. 

[ctuser1]

As an immigrant to the US, I find that I can totally assimilate in the US. Friends of mine who have migrated elsewhere in Europe and Australia, that is not the case. My friend in Germany has married a German and is still considered a foreigner.

The melting pot in the US is still very active and my kids are very American. They are considered by their peers as American, albeit a brown skinned American of Indian origin. Prime example is Kamala Harris, child of an Indian mother and Jamaican father who is the VP candidate from the Democratic party.

@CowboyAndIndian Just curious. How do you think assimilation might work in the reverse? If my wife and I, as White Americans, were to move to India and raise our White children there, would our children be able to assimilate to Indian society? Would they be "considered by their peers as" Indian?

You will face "reverse" racism.

You (and most probably your kids) will be treated more deferentially as a "guest" most of the time.

[Shane]

There is also this weird perception that the poor are helped and live generally dignified lives. To this I say: bwahahaha! The poor live in shit neighborhoods, have shit neighbors, and generally hobble through life just the same, rather shittily.

I am in the demographic where it is better for me to live in the USA. But I would remind you that people in the USA with no children get ~$0 of welfare per year. Additionally, there are still 14 US states where poor people do not have guaranteed access to health care. As a US/UK dual national, I know exactly where I would live if I were poor, and it isn't the USA. That isn't even counting access to higher education or gun violence which is remarkably better in the vast majority of Europe.

Well, unless you take a very narrow view of what constitutes welfare, the first part is simply not true. Plenty of anti-poverty programs have eligibility requirements that don't require having children. In the UK the universal credit is around £600, not exactly generous. And ironically enough, nearly all European countries rely to a much greater extent on VAT, so in practice US taxation is a lot more progressive.

But to your broader point about where life is better if you're poor, that used to be my position too, the Rawls veil of ignorance and all that. Now, I'm not so sure. Is the life of your median poor person in the UK marginally better than that of your median poor American? I'm leaning yes, but it's not clear cut. Yes, US healthcare is a dumpster fire and yes some people go bankrupt because of it. But between the charity writeoffs, free clinics, and simply not paying your bills, I'm not sure the day to day lived experience is that different.

So yeah, if I knew at birth that I'd be poor and could choose which country to experience that in, I'm really not sure which one I'd choose. It's a lot more nuanced and highly specific on the reasons why someone finds themselves in poverty. In either case, it fucking blows. I've witnessed pretty abject misery in the UK when I lived there, and I've noticed pretty abject misery in the US too. I do think the US welfare system is exceptionally difficult to navigate though. It's really weird trying to come up with a misery index to determine who has it the worst.

On my list of "what not to be born as", I think Romanian Roma is probably bottom of the list. Statistically, for a Roma to be able to get out of poverty is extremely difficult. They are EU citizens, but the walls between "them" and "us" are tall. The racism against travelling people in Europe is horrible, and has been so forever, but I feel most people in Europe are much less willing to address this type of racism than the type we see on TV from the US. We are really good at hating our neighbors in Europe. Some of it is for fun, like the jokes Swedes and Norwegians tell about each other. But give us a good reason to go to war, and it isn't funny any more. And then there is the racism you can't see unless you grew up in the area. Most people can't tell a Finn from a Swede by looks alone, but if you are from the Nordics you very much know who to look down on, and who to hate. The same goes for Faroese and Danes, or indigenous people like the Sami. We learn in school about the African colonies and the atrocities committed there, and sometimes we even learn about what our own countrymen did back then. But the atrocities committed closer to home, like the Danish treatment of their colonies in the North Atlantic, are not talked about. And now there is woke talk about "whitewashing", with some claiming on social media that Frozen is whitewashed because Elsa (with Sami heritage) is white and blond. Those types of simplifications can make it difficult to address the piles of racism white skinned blond Sami people have to wade through on a regular basis.

One extreme example of prejudice/racism which can't be connected to anything visible, is the Cagots of Spain and France. Nobody has any idea why they were so hated. They just were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagot
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-last-untouchable-in-europe-878705.html

For some reason, I can still clearly recall the words, and especially the condescending tone, that my German instructor in college used when referring to people from the southern German state of Bavaria. Our instructor was a grad student, originally from the northern city of Braunschweig, where, he proudly told us, "real, pure, High German" was spoken. When I made the mistake of telling my instructor that I was planning on taking a trip to Bavaria, during summer vacation, he told me, "Ahhh, Bayern is furchtbar! Bei uns sagt man, 'Der Bayer ist ein Mittelding zwischen einem Österreicher und einem Menschen!'" I ended up really liking the people and life in Bavaria and Austria. To this day, when I hear Germans speaking what sounds to me like Northern German dialects, what the Southerners call Preußisch, it kind of grates on my nerves, a little bit. I think it's because it reminds me of that German instructor I had in college and his hochnäsige (stuck up) attitude towards southerners.

[Shane]

The wine is cheaper though so that's a plus!

Let's be serious: the above is the only thing that matters. EU for the win!

Beers are amazing too! In Paris, we were able to buy 750ml bottles of Belgian-style ales for something like 2,50€. When you can find it, the same bottle of beer in the US would go for around US$20, sometimes more.

[ctuser1]

Immigrant countries (e.g. US, Canada, and most probably also Australia/NZ - although I've never been there) operate very differently from non-immigrant countries. The degree of acceptance of immigrants, who may even look different from you, is generally much lower in non-immigrant countries.

e.g. if you live in Tokyo and have half Japanese kids, they will still likely not be fully accepted as Japanese. Substitute any other Asian country and the story stays same or similar. I guess if you are a white American, and you have kids grow up with native fluency in some EU country, things will be different for them. But acceptance for immigrants with a funny accent? I doubt that is as likely as it will be in the immigrant countries like US/Canada/Australia.

My impression is that only UK has managed to be sort of an exception. It has integrated even non-white immigrants fairly well (at least better than it's other EU peers) while maintaining a strong native culture.

Of course, there are no absolutes!!

I, personally, am happy as a clam in CT and probably not going to move anywhere anytime soon. But, if full "Handmaid's Tale" came about in the US and the "coastal liberals" (like yours truly) got kicked out, then I'll probably make a beeline for Canada.

-- my 2 cents purely based on limited personal experience

[SotI]

Immigrant countries (e.g. US, Canada, and most probably also Australia/NZ - although I've never been there) operate very differently from non-immigrant countries. The degree of acceptance of immigrants, who may even look different from you, is generally much lower in non-immigrant countries.

My impression is that only UK has managed to be sort of an exception. It has integrated even non-white immigrants fairly well (at least better than it's other EU peers) while maintaining a strong native culture.

There are plenty of Australians on this board to give first hand experience, ofc, however, going by my Australian born and bred husband, he found AUS pretty racist. And he grew up in Sydney, not some backwater rural areas. But you are probably right this gets lost after one generation.

Europe, probably like Asia or Africa, is imo much more "tribal". Talking about "the UK", for example, seems a bit misleading. There are pretty strong tribal undercurrents between different regions. Scots, Welsh, Cornish (not to forget the Irish) bring a lot of deliberate groupism with them. Not to mention the English divide between the Northerners and the Southerners.

On the surface, they may all seem one, especially if there is an external foe (e.g. Hitler-Germany)  but under pressure, imo the "tribal" cracks tend to show.
In this it sounds similar to what some poster described about Germany.

People often forget that millenia of regional warfare have shaped Europeans. This is what makes the European Union (which has a lot of weaknesses and need for reforms) still a massive achievement. However, if you are migrating, be prepared to remain an "outsider" for life (lingering into the next gen).

Having said that, my husband pretty much feels he is extra welcome and has way more leverage by playing on this "outsider" role than the locals. Which is why he is pretty happy to stay. So, being from abroad is not necessarily a disadvantage. 😉

edit: oopsie - typos

     

[deborah]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

[Imma]

On the other hand, the gender wage gap in Italy, where i live, is much smaller than in many Northern European countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where part time work for women is the norm so women tend to get stuck in low paid "mommy track" jobs. 

In Germany it depends on where you live. The Eastern states have high female employment and full time daycare for up to 98% of all kids. In the Western states part time or SAHMs are way more common with the worst actually being the Southern states like Bavaria where in some areas you only get day care for four hours a day and mothers are expected to stay at home.

That makes sense as I was on vacation a couple of years ago in Bavaria (Nuremberg) and I was amazed at the ingrained gender roles there compared to where I live here in Italy. It was similar when we visited friends (with kids) who live in the Netherlands. near Amsterdam Almost all the mothers seemed to work part time but not the dads. With the expected effect on their earnings.

There's two sides to this story. Yes, we are a country with strong traditional Calvinist values even though most people don't actually go to church anymore. We feel belong mothers belong with their children, we value frugality, we hate people who are extravagant or very focused in their career. We believe working hard is a duty but American-style "ambition" is a bad thing, especially for women.

The upside of mothers working parttime is that mothers don't drop out of the labour market during the years their kids are young and they continue to have their own income & pension (saving for retirement is mandatory in most jobs in here). When the kids are older many women will increase their hours again. I hear a lot of stories of parttime workers being discriminated against on this forum. That's not legal in my country - you have the right to work parttime and you still have all the benefits a fulltime worker has.

It's slowly becoming more acceptable for men to work parttime too. My partner and I both work parttime (4 days/week) and we don't even have a family. I would never want to work fulltime unless it was financially necessary.  It doesn't help that childcare is pretty expensive in here, and most grandparents still work when the grandkids are young (retirement age is 66,5) so they often can't provide childcare.

It's true that we have less multigenerational households in the northern parts of Europe, but I'm not sure that means families are less close. We have a good pension system which means the elderly have a good income. They can afford to live independently and tax-wise it's smarter to live alone too. But in my country it's pretty common for people to live in a duplex with their parents or to live on the same street. Most people stay in the same town for their whole lives, we are less mobile than Americans seem to be.

[ctuser1]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

I would take that map with a truckload of salt. The approach they used is very simplistic and probably leads to misleading results.

e.g. They marked India as very intolerant (>40%) and Pakistan as very tolerant (<10%) by asking around if they would want "people of another race" as neighbors. Well, if I was to speculate, this is driven likely by dietary preferences. A third (just going off memory - don't have official stats) of Indians are strict vegetarians and generally live in vegetarian enclaves. For most of them, it is a big step to even sit on the same table with others while they are consuming non-vegetarian food. This question, I'd presume, will automatically draw a "no" answer from them. A similar (and probably stronger) taboo against beef consumption exists and will drive further "no" answers from even the non-vegetarian two-thirds of the country.

So the answer to this question is more likely driven by "moral" considerations over there, and not racial ones! Consider this as akin to asking a very observant Christian if they would want an abortion provider to set up shop next to their house.

If they probed deeper, I think the result would look very different for much of the world. Whether you (funny looking and silly talking) or your kids (funny looking but talking like a native) will be accepted as a full citizens of the country will probably not correlate with this map all that much.

[Kwill]

I've been lurking a bit here, so I thought I'd say hello. I sort of accidentally immigrated to the UK a few years ago from the US. I'd been looking for an academic or academic-related position in a niche field, so I was applying to almost everything in the world that seemed a potential fit. Even coming here with a job, there has been a lot of paperwork to keep track of. Lots of rules and fees and forms. I have to report every day I am absent from work for any reason. I have to take my passport to stay in a hotel. I can apply for settlement after five years, and citizenship one year after settlement is granted.

One thing that has really struck me this year was how much I counted on being able to quickly and easily travel back to the US. It had been comforting to know that if anything happened with my parents or relatives back home, I could be on a plane and home with them within 24 hours or less. I didn't end up making those kinds of emergency trips, but I've gone back for Christmas each year, and I've travelled for weddings and reunions. I think it would be much harder to make the decision to move far away post-covid. This year, I've missed a friend's wedding, and I'll miss Christmas as well. My parents were going to visit in May, and that didn't happen either. My grandmother is in the hospital now, and I don't know if I'll ever see her again. This year is such a mess that it might have been the same if I'd lived in the same country a few hours' drive away, but thinking now about reality checks before moving to Europe, it's worth really considering how you would feel about staying in Europe through lockdowns, quarantines, or border closures. If all this had happened when I'd first moved here, I think it would have been really hard.

[Imma]

@ctuser1 I also expect that some people who are asked this question would actually mind having neighbours from a different race, but would never say that out loud. I think these kind of surveys show how "accepted" it is in a country to be openly racist. That's not at all accepted in the UK but a bit more in France. But I don't actually believe British people are less racist than others (in my experience, it's probably actually the contrary).

@Kwill I'm sorry to hear about that. It's hard to be far away from family during these times. But these times are so crazy that living close to someone doesn't even guarantee anything  My own grandmother died in a hospital half an hour away from here and I couldn't say goodbye or give her a real funeral. It's a crazy time.

[Kwill]

@ctuser1 I also expect that some people who are asked this question would actually mind having neighbours from a different race, but would never say that out loud. I think these kind of surveys show how "accepted" it is in a country to be openly racist. That's not at all accepted in the UK but a bit more in France. But I don't actually believe British people are less racist than others (in my experience, it's probably actually the contrary).

@Kwill I'm sorry to hear about that. It's hard to be far away from family during these times. But these times are so crazy that living close to someone doesn't even guarantee anything  My own grandmother died in a hospital half an hour away from here and I couldn't say goodbye or give her a real funeral. It's a crazy time.

Thank you, Imma. I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother. That must have been hard.

I was thinking that about the survey, too. What people are willing to say in response to a survey and what they might think in the actual situation could be different. Also, it might depend on whether they are thinking of someone of a different race but the same culture and language or a different culture. In some neighbourhoods, they might be more concerned with how nice the front lawn and cars looked.

[CowboyAndIndian]

As an immigrant to the US, I find that I can totally assimilate in the US. Friends of mine who have migrated elsewhere in Europe and Australia, that is not the case. My friend in Germany has married a German and is still considered a foreigner.

The melting pot in the US is still very active and my kids are very American. They are considered by their peers as American, albeit a brown skinned American of Indian origin. Prime example is Kamala Harris, child of an Indian mother and Jamaican father who is the VP candidate from the Democratic party.

@CowboyAndIndian Just curious. How do you think assimilation might work in the reverse? If my wife and I, as White Americans, were to move to India and raise our White children there, would our children be able to assimilate to Indian society? Would they be "considered by their peers as" Indian?

As white Americans, you would have the cake and eat it too. After 150+ years of colonialism when the British beat it into our head that white people are superior, you would do very well.

As there is not much formal immigration, you would have a harder time to get papers etc.. This is more a function of not having much legal immigration than the fact that you are Americans.

India has always been very welcoming to immigrants. Some examples

• The Parsis, inhabitants of Persia were driven out by the Islamic invaders have been living in India for more than 1200 years. They keep their religion and culture and have been a great addition to India. For example, the Tata's (huge conglomerate), Field Marshal Sam Maneckshaw etc.
• The Jews had a couple of enclaves in India, in Maharashtra (state where Mumbai/Bombay is) as well as Kerala for about a long, long time. The ones in Maharashtra took local last names. There was never a pogrom against them. Unfortunately, not many are left since most immigrated to Israel in the past 30-40 years.

[Shane]

In the US, now, there's a lot of talk about white nationalism, which is pretty universally considered to be abhorrent. In 2020, any white person who dared to say out loud that he/she would prefer that the US remain majority white and Christian would be considered a bigot, at best.

Having spent two years living and working in rural Japan in the early 90s and, then, another 10+ years working with Japanese nationals in Hawaii, I'm pretty confident saying that the VAST MAJORITY of Japanese (95%+) would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS voluntarily agree to allow their country to become majority non-Japanese. Even Koreans who have lived in Japan for 4, 5, 6 generations are STILL considered foreigners, even though they've never set foot in Korea in their lives, don't speak any Korean, have zero connections to their ancestors' homeland, and are indistinguishable in appearance from Japanese to most Westerners, and even most Japanese. A White family living and working in Japan would be treated fairly well, but they would NEVER, EVER be considered Japanese, even if they and their descendants lived in Japan for 100+ years.

Personally, I LOVE diversity: ethnic, cultural, religious, racial, linguistic, etc. I have chosen for my entire adult life to live in places where I was a minority. I have voluntarily and enthusiastically chosen to live, for years sometimes, in places where I was literally the only White person in the entire area. I feel, though, that my ability to be comfortable with diversity is based on a lot of privilege. When I meet rural White people in the US who are still uncomfortable with the inevitable fact that the our country will, in our lifetimes, become majority non-White, rather than look down on them or feel hatred towards them because they're racists or bigots or whatever, I try to have compassion. I have a friend who wears a t-shirt that says, "Make Racists Afraid Again." While I can understand that way of thinking, I believe it's counterproductive. I feel like more needs to be done to help people who aren't yet on board with multiculturalism to feel more comfortable with the idea, because whether they like it or not, it's going to happen. Hating them isn't going to make things better, imho.

When I've talked about this with people irl, almost everyone I know agrees that White Nationalists are really bad, and we need to, basically, lock them up or wipe them out or, somehow, get rid of them from our country. But, when I bring up the example of Japan, usually my friends in the SJW crowd fall strangely silent. They are reluctant to condemn anyone who is not White for not fully embracing immigration and allowing their country to become majority non-Japanese. It just seems inconsistent to me. If Americans and Brits who don't want their countries to become majority non-white and majority non-Christian are really fucking bad people who we need to deplatform and doxx to get fired from their jobs, kicked out school and shunned from polite society, why is it, then, that Japanese people who don't want their country to become majority White or Black or Muslim or Hindu or Christian, why aren't they bigots, as well? I don't have any personal experience living in Muslim-majority countries, but I've spent a total of about 6 months traveling in Turkey, Pakistan and Malaysia, and my guess is the same thing would apply there, as well. If we were to poll Muslims in Saudi Arabia or Syria or Egypt, and ask them what they thought about opening up immigration to their countries with the goal of eventually making Muslims into a minority, I'm pretty sure most Muslims would be opposed to that. Surprising, huh? Wonder why the double standard?

Sorry if this it off topic. I realize my rant isn't specifically about Europe, but it is about immigration and the ethics of moving from one country to another, whether for work or retirement, or whatever. Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

[CowboyAndIndian]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

I would take that map with a truckload of salt. The approach they used is very simplistic and probably leads to misleading results.

e.g. They marked India as very intolerant (>40%) and Pakistan as very tolerant (<10%) by asking around if they would want "people of another race" as neighbors. Well, if I was to speculate, this is driven likely by dietary preferences. A third (just going off memory - don't have official stats) of Indians are strict vegetarians and generally live in vegetarian enclaves. For most of them, it is a big step to even sit on the same table with others while they are consuming non-vegetarian food. This question, I'd presume, will automatically draw a "no" answer from them. A similar (and probably stronger) taboo against beef consumption exists and will drive further "no" answers from even the non-vegetarian two-thirds of the country.

So the answer to this question is more likely driven by "moral" considerations over there, and not racial ones! Consider this as akin to asking a very observant Christian if they would want an abortion provider to set up shop next to their house.

If they probed deeper, I think the result would look very different for much of the world. Whether you (funny looking and silly talking) or your kids (funny looking but talking like a native) will be accepted as a full citizens of the country will probably not correlate with this map all that much.

Absolutely right about India. It is not about your race, language or origin, but what you eat.

Here is the list from most to least strict on food restrictions. Food restrictions are usually religion based.

• Jains: They are totally vegetarian and do not even eat any plant that grows underground as it might have some insect in it. The do use milk, but do not use leather or anything where an animal was harmed in its making
• Vegetarian Hindus: Will use milk and leather products.
• Non-Vegetarian Hindus: Very similar to vegetarian Hindus, but will have a small chicken/mutton dish once a week. Meat is not a part of everyday food. They will also eat eggs, but beef is a big no-no.
• Sikhs: Very similar to non-vegetarian Hindus. Meat has to be ritually killed (called Jhatka).
• Muslims: All kinds of meat except for Pork. Meat has to be ritually killed (called Halal). Will eat beef.
• Christians: They eat everything.

So, with these restrictions, you can imagine Jains and vegetarian Hindus (~40% of the population) who do not want to live next to meat eating neighbors. The neighbor might slaughter their meat next door and that is unacceptable. The non-vegetarian Hindus/Sikhs do not want to live next to a beef eating neighbor.

Also, this is a much more orthodox society, where an an unmarried couple living together would not be able to find a house to rent.

[CowboyAndIndian]

...
Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

Yes! In fact, they would not be equal but actually would have an advantage over other (brown skinned) Indians. So, as @ctuser1 said, reverse-racism.

India is not a homogeneous society, but is very diverse. There are Kashmiris who are as fair as any northern European (some even with blue eyes). In the North East, you cannot distinguish the Indians there from the Thai or Burmese. North Indians are fairer than South Indians and every state has a different language. I believe that there are 22 official languages in India and with a couple of hundred dialects. These languages are mostly derived from Sanskrit (one of Indo-European languages) but so long back that knowing one does not mean you can read or understand the other. Everyone knows multiple languages.

So, a white American would not be very different. I see a large number of Americans and Europeans in Mysore (close to Bangalore) where they come to learn yoga. They do not have any issues in living there. You would be able to communicate in English (more in the South than the North).

The point I guess I was making is that the culture is more important. If you assimilate with the culture, I do not expect you to have any issues.

[Hula Hoop]

On the other hand, the gender wage gap in Italy, where i live, is much smaller than in many Northern European countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where part time work for women is the norm so women tend to get stuck in low paid "mommy track" jobs. 

In Germany it depends on where you live. The Eastern states have high female employment and full time daycare for up to 98% of all kids. In the Western states part time or SAHMs are way more common with the worst actually being the Southern states like Bavaria where in some areas you only get day care for four hours a day and mothers are expected to stay at home.

That makes sense as I was on vacation a couple of years ago in Bavaria (Nuremberg) and I was amazed at the ingrained gender roles there compared to where I live here in Italy. It was similar when we visited friends (with kids) who live in the Netherlands. near Amsterdam Almost all the mothers seemed to work part time but not the dads. With the expected effect on their earnings.

There's two sides to this story. Yes, we are a country with strong traditional Calvinist values even though most people don't actually go to church anymore. We feel belong mothers belong with their children, we value frugality, we hate people who are extravagant or very focused in their career. We believe working hard is a duty but American-style "ambition" is a bad thing, especially for women.

The upside of mothers working parttime is that mothers don't drop out of the labour market during the years their kids are young and they continue to have their own income & pension (saving for retirement is mandatory in most jobs in here). When the kids are older many women will increase their hours again. I hear a lot of stories of parttime workers being discriminated against on this forum. That's not legal in my country - you have the right to work parttime and you still have all the benefits a fulltime worker has.

It's slowly becoming more acceptable for men to work parttime too. My partner and I both work parttime (4 days/week) and we don't even have a family. I would never want to work fulltime unless it was financially necessary.  It doesn't help that childcare is pretty expensive in here, and most grandparents still work when the grandkids are young (retirement age is 66,5) so they often can't provide childcare.

It's true that we have less multigenerational households in the northern parts of Europe, but I'm not sure that means families are less close. We have a good pension system which means the elderly have a good income. They can afford to live independently and tax-wise it's smarter to live alone too. But in my country it's pretty common for people to live in a duplex with their parents or to live on the same street. Most people stay in the same town for their whole lives, we are less mobile than Americans seem to be.

Italians are also generally very frugal.  We have to be as salaries are low.  Multigenerational households are part of that frugality as is the still pretty widespread home cooking, canning and eating seasonally.

Anyway, the reason I posted about the gender wage gap in Northern Europe is that someone above (not sure if it was you) posted that Southern Europeans, specifically Italians, have a wider gender gap in employment.  I just wanted to point out that this does not tell the full story as, in many ways Italy at least (not sure about other Southern European countries) has less rigid gender norms than in the many parts of Northern Europe, where, as you say people believe "mothers belong with their children", ie. mothers, and not fathers, are still expected by the culture to do the majority of childcare and housework so they ended up in low paid part time work. 

[Linea_Norway]

Just go someplace if it interests you. But: learn the language! Even 10 words. Be polite. Without that . . . .you're just being rude.
And pay attention to what you really find, not to your expectations.
It's really fascinating to see different ways to live, speak, eat, and so on. Vive la différence!

This reminded me of my pet peeve: it is important to adapt your politeness to the local customs. In large parts of Northern Europe this means: don't bother people. Do not talk to strangers. Be quiet in public. When seated at a meal; reach over and get your own salt instead of asking other people to pass it to you (or live without the salt). If people offer you something (coffee, dinner, a service); decline at least twice before accepting, and make sure to say "I'm sorry to be such a bother" or "I don't want to be a bother". When talking: keep short and precise, and do not add unnecessary filler words like "please" and "thank you". If you want to offer your seat at the bus to a pregnant woman or other person who looks like they need it, don't embarrass them by pointing this out loudly. Just get out of the seat and let them have it, maybe with some slight body language like raising your eyebrows or clearing your throat.

Behaving like this in rural UK, on the other hand... not a good idea.

Lol, I'm from a Danish family and thought I was a total weirdo until I started learning about my own cultural background and realized that almost all of my strangeness is just that I have a lot of Scandinavian behaviours, which can be very out of place in Canada where "polite" has a very, very different meaning.

On the flip side, I'm way too Canadian to fit in with Scandinavians. My Finish friends just roll their eyes and mutter "talking..." whenever I say more than two or three sentences within a 20 minute period. I adore Finish humour.

This is strange to me as one of my parents is a Scandinavian immigrant and always taught me to say "please" and "thank you" and "can you please pass the salt?"  Also loves to talk.  Maybe been in the US too long?  I remember some weird table manners as a kid like having to wait until everyone was seated before even raising a fork and an obsession with not putting elbows on the table.

As a Dutch child I learned to wait eating until everyone was served. And indeed not eating with elbows on the table. But in Norway, people are always telling me to start eating a warm meal when I am served first. Or they start first themselves, telling the others that they must start, otherwise it will get cold. For me that is still extremely uncomfortable and unpolite. I rather let my food get cold than eating alone while the others are waiting.

In Norway it is very common to say thank you. A strange example for me was "Takk for sist", which means Thanks for last time we met, which could be last week or last year.

[ctuser1]

Having spent two years living and working in rural Japan in the early 90s and, then, another 10+ years working with Japanese nationals in Hawaii, I'm pretty confident saying that the VAST MAJORITY of Japanese (95%+) would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS voluntarily agree to allow their country to become majority non-Japanese. Even Koreans who have lived in Japan for 4, 5, 6 generations are STILL considered foreigners, even though they've never set foot in Korea in their lives, don't speak any Korean, have zero connections to their ancestors' homeland, and are indistinguishable in appearance from Japanese to most Westerners, and even most Japanese. A White family living and working in Japan would be treated fairly well, but they would NEVER, EVER be considered Japanese, even if they and their descendants lived in Japan for 100+ years.

True. Substitute Japan with any other white European country, add in a tiny bit of different racial difference, and you can say the same thing about almost any other "non-immigrant" country. There are uncomfortably situated Muslim enclaves in many European countries to bear witness to this. Even UK, with all it's effort, has only attained spotty success (e.g. the Bangladeshi enclaves).

But, when I bring up the example of Japan, usually my friends in the SJW crowd fall strangely silent. They are reluctant to condemn anyone who is not White for not fully embracing immigration and allowing their country to become majority non-Japanese. It just seems inconsistent to me. If Americans and Brits who don't want their countries to become majority non-white and majority non-Christian are really fucking bad people who we need to deplatform and doxx to get fired from their jobs, kicked out school and shunned from polite society, why is it, then, that Japanese people who don't want their country to become majority White or Black or Muslim or Hindu or Christian, why aren't they bigots, as well?

Look at it from an immigrant/non-immigrant country axis and things may make more sense.
How many of the Manhattan project scientists were immigrants? Would you rather have them go somewhere else and make that country stronger?? If Japan or Germany happened to develop has an "immigrant" country, I strongly suspect that you or I would not have liked the results much.

Whether you look at it via race/religion (white Christian vs others) axis or culture (immigrant vs. non-immigrant country) axis is a choice that you are making.

Sorry if this it off topic. I realize my rant isn't specifically about Europe, but it is about immigration and the ethics of moving from one country to another, whether for work or retirement, or whatever. Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

India is not an immigrant country in the same way as US/Canada/Australia/NZ is.

Will a rural, conservative Indian be happy if his/her son/daughter wanted to marry your daughter/son? Probably no!! But then I knew someone in real life who made this work and got accepted. There is even a youtube guy (I don't know him in real life) who has vlogged about his experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KClygx7TAsM.

In the US, people will be accepted in the "in-group" faster irrespective of their skin color because it is an immigrant country. Acceptance into the "in-group" is likely not going to be as automatic or as quick in India. Historically, India has been quite open to immigrants. e.g. The Tata's (they own the Jaguar/Land Rover brand) are Parsi's, i.e. immigrants who fled Iran after Muslim invasion of Iran. As far as I gather, they are very much accepted as Indians. But that process works on a different timescale compared to an immigrant country like US.

[Shane]

...
Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

Yes! In fact, they would not be equal but actually would have an advantage over other (brown skinned) Indians. So, as @ctuser1 said, reverse-racism.

India is not a homogeneous society, but is very diverse. There are Kashmiris who are as fair as any northern European (some even with blue eyes). In the North East, you cannot distinguish the Indians there from the Thai or Burmese. North Indians are fairer than South Indians and every state has a different language. I believe that there are 22 official languages in India and with a couple of hundred dialects. These languages are mostly derived from Sanskrit (one of Indo-European languages) but so long back that knowing one does not mean you can read or understand the other. Everyone knows multiple languages.

So, a white American would not be very different. I see a large number of Americans and Europeans in Mysore (close to Bangalore) where they come to learn yoga. They do not have any issues in living there. You would be able to communicate in English (more in the South than the North).

The point I guess I was making is that the culture is more important. If you assimilate with the culture, I do not expect you to have any issues.

That's interesting! I look forward to visiting India some day. I've always wanted to go there, but not made it yet. Thank you for sharing perspective, @CowboyAndIndian .

[lutorm]

In the US, now, there's a lot of talk about white nationalism, which is pretty universally considered to be abhorrent. In 2020, any white person who dared to say out loud that he/she would prefer that the US remain majority white and Christian would be considered a bigot, at best.

I'm sorry, it would be nice if this was true but I think the past 4 years have shown conclusively that it is not the case. They may not come out and say it directly, but it's clear that there is a substantial fraction of the US population that, at the very least tacitly, supports the idea that the US should remain majority white and Christian.

[Shane]

Just go someplace if it interests you. But: learn the language! Even 10 words. Be polite. Without that . . . .you're just being rude.
And pay attention to what you really find, not to your expectations.
It's really fascinating to see different ways to live, speak, eat, and so on. Vive la différence!

This reminded me of my pet peeve: it is important to adapt your politeness to the local customs. In large parts of Northern Europe this means: don't bother people. Do not talk to strangers. Be quiet in public. When seated at a meal; reach over and get your own salt instead of asking other people to pass it to you (or live without the salt). If people offer you something (coffee, dinner, a service); decline at least twice before accepting, and make sure to say "I'm sorry to be such a bother" or "I don't want to be a bother". When talking: keep short and precise, and do not add unnecessary filler words like "please" and "thank you". If you want to offer your seat at the bus to a pregnant woman or other person who looks like they need it, don't embarrass them by pointing this out loudly. Just get out of the seat and let them have it, maybe with some slight body language like raising your eyebrows or clearing your throat.

Behaving like this in rural UK, on the other hand... not a good idea.

Lol, I'm from a Danish family and thought I was a total weirdo until I started learning about my own cultural background and realized that almost all of my strangeness is just that I have a lot of Scandinavian behaviours, which can be very out of place in Canada where "polite" has a very, very different meaning.

On the flip side, I'm way too Canadian to fit in with Scandinavians. My Finish friends just roll their eyes and mutter "talking..." whenever I say more than two or three sentences within a 20 minute period. I adore Finish humour.

This is strange to me as one of my parents is a Scandinavian immigrant and always taught me to say "please" and "thank you" and "can you please pass the salt?"  Also loves to talk.  Maybe been in the US too long?  I remember some weird table manners as a kid like having to wait until everyone was seated before even raising a fork and an obsession with not putting elbows on the table.

As a Dutch child I learned to wait eating until everyone was served. And indeed not eating with elbows on the table. But in Norway, people are always telling me to start eating a warm meal when I am served first. Or they start first themselves, telling the others that they must start, otherwise it will get cold. For me that is still extremely uncomfortable and unpolite. I rather let my food get cold than eating alone while the others are waiting.

In Norway it is very common to say thank you. A strange example for me was "Takk for sist", which means Thanks for last time we met, which could be last week or last year.

Given that Norway can get pretty cold, it's not hard to imagine that a custom of encouraging people to start eating as soon as they are served makes a lot of sense, given that waiting, even just a few minutes, until everyone is served might mean that the food would get cold.

[Shane]

Having spent two years living and working in rural Japan in the early 90s and, then, another 10+ years working with Japanese nationals in Hawaii, I'm pretty confident saying that the VAST MAJORITY of Japanese (95%+) would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS voluntarily agree to allow their country to become majority non-Japanese. Even Koreans who have lived in Japan for 4, 5, 6 generations are STILL considered foreigners, even though they've never set foot in Korea in their lives, don't speak any Korean, have zero connections to their ancestors' homeland, and are indistinguishable in appearance from Japanese to most Westerners, and even most Japanese. A White family living and working in Japan would be treated fairly well, but they would NEVER, EVER be considered Japanese, even if they and their descendants lived in Japan for 100+ years.

True. Substitute Japan with any other white European country, add in a tiny bit of different racial difference, and you can say the same thing about almost any other "non-immigrant" country. There are uncomfortably situated Muslim enclaves in many European countries to bear witness to this. Even UK, with all it's effort, has only attained spotty success (e.g. the Bangladeshi enclaves).

In 2018, my family and I spent about 6 months traveling around Europe. Many middle class White Europeans we talked with at length expressed, not necessarily disagreement, but, I'd say, some concern about what seemed to them to be a LOT of immigrants/refugees that their politicians had chosen to let into their countries, within a relatively short period of time. We heard basically the same concerns from French, German and Swiss people we talked with. In Norway, people seemed generally more positive about immigration. In Kirkenes we got to have an interesting conversation with a father and son who came to Norway in the 90s as refugees from the Balkan wars. They seemed to be doing quite well in Norway. The son, especially, was taking advantage of the excellent Norwegian university system in order to get advanced degrees, which should qualify him for a good job and a really decent life in Norway. It seemed like their experience as refugees in Norway was pretty much a complete success, and they seemed really grateful for the opportunity Norway had given them to start a new life there.

But, when I bring up the example of Japan, usually my friends in the SJW crowd fall strangely silent. They are reluctant to condemn anyone who is not White for not fully embracing immigration and allowing their country to become majority non-Japanese. It just seems inconsistent to me. If Americans and Brits who don't want their countries to become majority non-white and majority non-Christian are really fucking bad people who we need to deplatform and doxx to get fired from their jobs, kicked out school and shunned from polite society, why is it, then, that Japanese people who don't want their country to become majority White or Black or Muslim or Hindu or Christian, why aren't they bigots, as well?

Look at it from an immigrant/non-immigrant country axis and things may make more sense.
How many of the Manhattan project scientists were immigrants? Would you rather have them go somewhere else and make that country stronger?? If Japan or Germany happened to develop has an "immigrant" country, I strongly suspect that you or I would not have liked the results much.

Whether you look at it via race/religion (white Christian vs others) axis or culture (immigrant vs. non-immigrant country) axis is a choice that you are making.

Personally, I'm super grateful for immigrants in the US. I think the success of our country has been almost completely because of our historic openness to immigrants and refugees. I think the best thing we could do is to greatly increase the numbers of immigrants we grant visas to to allow many more people to legally come to our country to live and work. It just has to be predictable and organized, and businesses will snatch those workers up and really make America great again.

Sorry if this it off topic. I realize my rant isn't specifically about Europe, but it is about immigration and the ethics of moving from one country to another, whether for work or retirement, or whatever. Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

India is not an immigrant country in the same way as US/Canada/Australia/NZ is.

Will a rural, conservative Indian be happy if his/her son/daughter wanted to marry your daughter/son? Probably no!! But then I knew someone in real life who made this work and got accepted. There is even a youtube guy (I don't know him in real life) who has vlogged about his experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KClygx7TAsM.

In the US, people will be accepted in the "in-group" faster irrespective of their skin color because it is an immigrant country. Acceptance into the "in-group" is likely not going to be as automatic or as quick in India. Historically, India has been quite open to immigrants. e.g. The Tata's (they own the Jaguar/Land Rover brand) are Parsi's, i.e. immigrants who fled Iran after Muslim invasion of Iran. As far as I gather, they are very much accepted as Indians. But that process works on a different timescale compared to an immigrant country like US.

As I told CowboyandIndian above, India has always sounded like a really fascinating country to me. I'm definitely looking forward to vising there some day. A good Japanese friend of ours has taken two months-long trips to India, twice in the past two years. Seeing all of the photos our friend has posted to social media has made me even more interested in visiting India myself some day! Have you been there, @ctuser1 ? If so, what did you think?

[Shane]

In the US, now, there's a lot of talk about white nationalism, which is pretty universally considered to be abhorrent. In 2020, any white person who dared to say out loud that he/she would prefer that the US remain majority white and Christian would be considered a bigot, at best.

I'm sorry, it would be nice if this was true but I think the past 4 years have shown conclusively that it is not the case. They may not come out and say it directly, but it's clear that there is a substantial fraction of the US population that, at the very least tacitly, supports the idea that the US should remain majority white and Christian.

Are things different on the "large island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean" where you live?

[ctuser1]

Sorry if this it off topic. I realize my rant isn't specifically about Europe, but it is about immigration and the ethics of moving from one country to another, whether for work or retirement, or whatever. Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

India is not an immigrant country in the same way as US/Canada/Australia/NZ is.

Will a rural, conservative Indian be happy if his/her son/daughter wanted to marry your daughter/son? Probably no!! But then I knew someone in real life who made this work and got accepted. There is even a youtube guy (I don't know him in real life) who has vlogged about his experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KClygx7TAsM.

In the US, people will be accepted in the "in-group" faster irrespective of their skin color because it is an immigrant country. Acceptance into the "in-group" is likely not going to be as automatic or as quick in India. Historically, India has been quite open to immigrants. e.g. The Tata's (they own the Jaguar/Land Rover brand) are Parsi's, i.e. immigrants who fled Iran after Muslim invasion of Iran. As far as I gather, they are very much accepted as Indians. But that process works on a different timescale compared to an immigrant country like US.

As I told CowboyandIndian above, India has always sounded like a really fascinating country to me. I'm definitely looking forward to vising there some day. A good Japanese friend of ours has taken two months-long trips to India, twice in the past two years. Seeing all of the photos our friend has posted to social media has made me even more interested in visiting India myself some day! Have you been there, @ctuser1 ? If so, what did you think?

I worked in Delhi for 2+ years.

I can guarantee that your reaction won't be "meh! another country checked off!!" if you go there. You will either love it or hate it, with a passion!!

For all it's IT success, India is still a poor country of 1.4 billion people. Half of it's population still survive by doing subsistence farming. It'll make you question some basic assumptions about life.

I'd just suggest that either reaction (love it or hate it) is perfectly fine and normal.

[monarda]

What difficulties for EU citizens do you anticipate? That's the whole point of freedom of movement, the registration is a mere formality. Just call yourself self-employed if you really have to, the permits are valid into perpetuity.

The right to freedom of movement within the EU is tied to work: you need to be a worker, a pensioner or a student to qualify.  There has been a tendency in the past to apply this requirement loosely but I wouldn't bet on that continuing into the future as a permanent feature: the trends for it are not looking good.

That's not true.

For an EU person, you need to be: Employed, a Student, or of Sufficient Means to Support Yourself (including retired with pension).

The latter is strictly not allowed to be given a specific number but must be reasonable given circumstances. It may be that you have to take out private health insurance for the first five years. After five years you will and must be treated exactly the same as a national; you cannot be asked to leave. If you lose all your money at the casino you will be eligible for the same support as a national.

If you are relying on "sufficient means to support yourself" then you don't have the benefits, including health care, which are one of the draws for relocating to the EU.

Also, at the basis of the EU is that freedom of movement is freedom to move for work.  While that has been expanded over the years, both in legislation and by the European Court of Justice, current trends are moving against it.  Over several decades of early retirement it's no longer a sure thing.  Citizenship of the country you live in is the only irreversible right.

What? Depends on the country. And private insurance costs are very very different between, say, France and the US. In France, you can start a 'micro-entreprise' and earn a couple of hundred Euros now and again and be in the French healthcare system, which means the state will pay a percentage and then you only need to get 'top-up' which is not expensive.

If you're retired (and an EU citizen), the country you last worked in will pay your healthcare 'subscription' and again, you'll be in the local system.

Again, once you have been somewhere 5 years you are treated the same as a local. If the EU collapses... well. Even then, I doubt they'd kick out current residents. Generally people are FIREing to places that want people to come. With Brex-shit there have been all sorts of messages put out by the popular Spanish, French regions saying "this is your home, yes we still want you" to the Brits - and that whole thing has been pretty acrimonious.

Yes, as I said, and as you point out, you need to be, or have been, a worker in an EU country to claim EU rights.  If all your work was in the USA, you retire and then come to a country in which you are an EU citizen your rights to retire to another EU country may be limited by that.

hmmm. I'm currently applying for an Austrian passport. I might want to work a little in the EU after I retire. But from what you're saying, to get EU rights I must work? Does it need to be full time work?

[Shane]

Sorry if this it off topic. I realize my rant isn't specifically about Europe, but it is about immigration and the ethics of moving from one country to another, whether for work or retirement, or whatever. Just noticed that @CowboyAndIndian posted, as I was typing this. Thanks for your response, but I'm still curious whether, or not, a White immigrant to India would be, as you said you felt your children were in the US, "considered by their peers as" Indian? Is it possible for a White person to become Indian in the same way that it is possible for an Indian couple's children to become American in the US?

India is not an immigrant country in the same way as US/Canada/Australia/NZ is.

Will a rural, conservative Indian be happy if his/her son/daughter wanted to marry your daughter/son? Probably no!! But then I knew someone in real life who made this work and got accepted. There is even a youtube guy (I don't know him in real life) who has vlogged about his experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KClygx7TAsM.

In the US, people will be accepted in the "in-group" faster irrespective of their skin color because it is an immigrant country. Acceptance into the "in-group" is likely not going to be as automatic or as quick in India. Historically, India has been quite open to immigrants. e.g. The Tata's (they own the Jaguar/Land Rover brand) are Parsi's, i.e. immigrants who fled Iran after Muslim invasion of Iran. As far as I gather, they are very much accepted as Indians. But that process works on a different timescale compared to an immigrant country like US.

As I told CowboyandIndian above, India has always sounded like a really fascinating country to me. I'm definitely looking forward to vising there some day. A good Japanese friend of ours has taken two months-long trips to India, twice in the past two years. Seeing all of the photos our friend has posted to social media has made me even more interested in visiting India myself some day! Have you been there, @ctuser1 ? If so, what did you think?

I worked in Delhi for 2+ years.

I can guarantee that your reaction won't be "meh! another country checked off!!" if you go there. You will either love it or hate it, with a passion!!

For all it's IT success, India is still a poor country of 1.4 billion people. Half of it's population still survive by doing subsistence farming. It'll make you question some basic assumptions about life.

I'd just suggest that either reaction (love it or hate it) is perfectly fine and normal.

Have heard similar things about India from others, as well. Some people I know have had intensely negative experiences in India. Others, love India and go back, again and again. Some of the nicest and smartest people I've known in my life have been from India. Also, we fell in love with Indian food, during 3 months spent in Malaysia in 2017. Looking forward to covid, hopefully ending, so we can travel again, someday...

[lutorm]

Given that Norway can get pretty cold, it's not hard to imagine that a custom of encouraging people to start eating as soon as they are served makes a lot of sense, given that waiting, even just a few minutes, until everyone is served might mean that the food would get cold.

Sweden also has the same custom of waiting until everyone is served, though.

[lutorm]

In the US, now, there's a lot of talk about white nationalism, which is pretty universally considered to be abhorrent. In 2020, any white person who dared to say out loud that he/she would prefer that the US remain majority white and Christian would be considered a bigot, at best.

I'm sorry, it would be nice if this was true but I think the past 4 years have shown conclusively that it is not the case. They may not come out and say it directly, but it's clear that there is a substantial fraction of the US population that, at the very least tacitly, supports the idea that the US should remain majority white and Christian.

Are things different on the "large island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean" where you live?

Maybe? I'm just judging this from the fact that 60 million people voted for Trump and roughly the same number still seems ready to vote for him again, even after there can no longer be any illusions about the "very fine people" he associate with. I don't see how anyone who thinks white supremacy is "abhorrent" can vote for him regardless of how much they agree with conservative politics.

[former player]

hmmm. I'm currently applying for an Austrian passport. I might want to work a little in the EU after I retire. But from what you're saying, to get EU rights I must work? Does it need to be full time work?

I think so, yes.  "Work" probably means something that pays into the local social security system: that will provide proof of work in Austria which will be accepted throughout the EU.  The exception is if you can prove that you are self-sufficient and have health insurance.

Here is a good starting point -

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers

[Hula Hoop]

hmmm. I'm currently applying for an Austrian passport. I might want to work a little in the EU after I retire. But from what you're saying, to get EU rights I must work? Does it need to be full time work?

I think so, yes.  "Work" probably means something that pays into the local social security system: that will provide proof of work in Austria which will be accepted throughout the EU.  The exception is if you can prove that you are self-sufficient and have health insurance.

Here is a good starting point -

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers

If s/he becomes an Austrian citizen, can't s/he just move there?  If s/he's retiring to Austria, then s/he would by definition have to be self sufficient financially. Here in Italy, we get lots of Italian-Americans, Italian-Australians etc who apply for the Italian passport and then retire here.  The only issue that they have is healthcare - but they can pay into the Italian system to get that.  It's not that expensive - a few hundred per year.

One piece of advice I'd give you is to examine your potential tax situation very carefully before moving.

[Imma]

@Shane I have some family members who never used to say racist things but have started that over the last couple of years. In my country of course a group of people are very angry about refugees entering this country (I'm sure those groups exist in all countries) but refugees are a small group. Most people don't meet refugees in their real life.

What my relatives are concerned about, which I understand even though I don't agree with their racism, that in a short period of time, my country town has become an English speaking expat hub. I'm 30 and when I was a kid, only tourists and American soldiers stationed here would speak English. Now English is the main language spoken in all of the big cities and at universities too. If you are eating in a restaurant in a big city, chances are the person serving you doesn't even speak Dutch. I speak English, so it's not an issue for me. But I understand that my elderly relatives are struggling because of this change in the dominant language. One of them is almost housebound and used to have all these neighbours who would drop in to visit her. Now she can't even communicate with anyone living on her floor. A few have learned a few words of textbook Dutch but they still don't understand the local dialect. As most immigrants are Asian, I hear a lot of racist stuff about Asians now. My relative was never a racist and is very well travelled for someone of that generation. It's just loneliness and desperation.

@Hula Hoop it wasn't me who brought up the gender pay gap, but it's indeed very low in Italy. Much lower than in NL. Looks like we are at 15% which is just about average. Looks like Estonia is doing very badly, and other countries not doing well are mainly the middle European countries: Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia. I noticed that our neighbour Belgium is also doing well on closing the gender pay gap, but I also know a lot less women work there. But when they do it's usually fulltime.

One surprising statistic I heard recently is that Dutch women earn more per hour after taxes than Dutch men, due to our progressive income tax and because women are on average better educated than men. While women on average work only 25 hours a week (compared to 33 for men)  they're not doing low-paid jobs.

How does childcare work in Italy? Is it affordable/easy to get a place for your child? Or do grandparents help out? Because I know several women who'd like to work more than they do but it's just almost impossible to find childcare. I know childcare is very cheap in Belgium, maybe that's why women there work more hours.

[Hula Hoop]

How does childcare work in Italy? Is it affordable/easy to get a place for your child? Or do grandparents help out? Because I know several women who'd like to work more than they do but it's just almost impossible to find childcare. I know childcare is very cheap in Belgium, maybe that's why women there work more hours.

Childcare here in Italy is very cheap.  From age 5 months to 3 years there is full time public daycare on a sliding scale according to income.  The prices are very low (the top rate is, I think, a few hundred per month).  The catch is that you generally both have to work full time to qualify for public daycare, at least in the city where I live but everyone I know sent their kids to public daycare and both our kids went to public daycare and it was excellent.   There are private daycares for those with money or people who can't get their kids into the public system.  From age 3 onwards, public school starts so childcare/school is free from age 3 onwards.  Grandparents help out a lot here but we don't have grandparent help and we've been ok.  My husband has always had flexible hours though. 

IMO one of the reasons the daycare works well here (although Italians love to complain, which I find hilarious) is that it's the norm, these days, for women to work full time so the voters demand inexpensive and accessible daycare.  In many northern European countries there seems to be a cultural assumption that mothers are always available to provide unpaid childcare and housework. In the city where we live, daycare is 8 hours a day, so is nursery school (age 3-6) and primary school.  The kids get a hot, 3 course lunch cooked on site at school.  I kind of bristle at the stereotypes about Italian society that I sometimes hear from Northern Europeans based on outdated ideas about Italy.  In the south where there are very few jobs it's true that a lot of mothers end up staying home with their children either because they can't find a job or by preference.  But where I live virtually all mothers work full time and it is considered normal that a woman both has a serious career and children.

Regarding English speaking expats.  I'm really surprised that they don't learn Dutch - especially if living in a smaller village.  I know lots of English speaking expats in my Italian city and all of them speak Italian.  Actually I do know one person who doesn't speak Italian but she is severaly limited by this - can't deal with her child's school, can't watch the news, doesn't have any local friends, can't go to the doctor without her husband, can't get a drivers' license etc.  Everyone I know who has been here more than a year or two speaks decent Italian as otherwise it would be impossible to function in daily life.  But I also find it quite disrespectful not to learn the local language of the place where you live.  Italian is a very easy language to learn though.  Maybe Dutch is a bit harder to learn?

[former player]

hmmm. I'm currently applying for an Austrian passport. I might want to work a little in the EU after I retire. But from what you're saying, to get EU rights I must work? Does it need to be full time work?

I think so, yes.  "Work" probably means something that pays into the local social security system: that will provide proof of work in Austria which will be accepted throughout the EU.  The exception is if you can prove that you are self-sufficient and have health insurance.

Here is a good starting point -

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers

If s/he becomes an Austrian citizen, can't s/he just move there?  If s/he's retiring to Austria, then s/he would by definition have to be self sufficient financially. Here in Italy, we get lots of Italian-Americans, Italian-Australians etc who apply for the Italian passport and then retire here.  The only issue that they have is healthcare - but they can pay into the Italian system to get that.  It's not that expensive - a few hundred per year.

One piece of advice I'd give you is to examine your potential tax situation very carefully before moving.

By being an Austrian citizen monarda gets the right to live in Austria.  That's Austrian citizenship rights.  "EU rights" is something different: it's the rights (gained through being an Austrian citizen) to work and do business in all the other EU states.  But that right doesn't exist just because you are an Austrian citizen, it exists because you are an Austrian citizen worker/business person.

Being financially self-sufficient is enough to allow a citizen of one EU state to live in another EU state.  But it doesn't come with the benefits of "worker" status, such as the right to social security and health care which are some of the major benefits of living in the EU.