Author Topic: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...  (Read 24595 times)

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2015, 01:57:48 PM »
I just mentioned your story to a co-worker because it made my laugh out loud. Our family sounds just like yours. And his response was "well, maybe they should start living like a normal family so they don't get taken for poor people".

I just don't get so-called "normal" people who think it's better to waste money and resources just to keep up appearances. Keep doing you :)

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2015, 02:01:56 PM »
Ha!  I understand where the worry comes from, given the story.  And we definitely /do/ have stuff we wear in the house that has holes, is faded, etc., but we do distinguish between "outside" and "inside" clothes.  The painters would have seen all our clothes hanging on the line in back, which includes a higher percentage of very tattered things we wear casually around the house, because we aren't needing to wash work clothes right now.  They might also have seen us in properly tattered things when we were doing messy work in the yard or headed out for a run (do people dress up for that? aren't tattered, faded clothes the right thing to wear?). 

But this has never been a general problem - I've never had a shopkeeper follow me around, worried I'm a derelict or anything, and I do appropriate business dress for work when it's needed (as an academic, in Australia, the dress code is pretty casual for most purposes, but some of my work means playing well with commercial funders, where a higher standard is required: I maintain that whenever it's needed). 

So I don't think there's a general problem.  That said, since these are people working around where we live, unpredictably (the landlord is nice, and we get along just fine, but he's not exactly a stickler for the rules about notifying us when works are taking place): there's no way I'm going to "dress up" in my own house, in the odd chance the painters or other work crews show up, and are less than impressed with my lounge-around-the-lounge clothes...

Why should you have to change yourself just to fit into other people's conceptions of how people should look? Everyone should be treated with dignity, regardless of dress.

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2015, 02:08:13 PM »
Yeah, I agree on the CPS thing :-(

To be clear on food, though, lest we seem weirder than we are: we always have milk, always have oats, always have bread, always even have a stock of huge boxes of Cheerios for the little one, always have beans and rice (which our kids do actually like, and which is a regular food in the household, not just emergency rations), and always have pasta and a vast array of spices.  It's unusual for us not to have some varieties of canned vegetables, eggs, some stray random longer-lasting but not immediately perishable foodstuffs.  On all but a couple of days each month, we're either overflowing with fresh ingredients waiting for a bulk cooking spree, or we have masses of pre-cooked frozen things ready to thaw for that day's lunches and dinners.  Someone could potentially catch us without fruit, but only because our toddler will eat every. single. piece. if she can see it, and she's pretty good at working out where we hide it as well.  This is not because we are buying too little fruit.  She is just capable of eating an astonishing amount of it, and will eat it to the exclusion of more substantial things if we let her...

So I absolutely don't want CPS to show up /at all/ - I understand the risks of that, and don't want to play around with it.  At the same time, we are an actually /well-off/ household.  As in, we aren't 1%ers or anything - our household income is a bit above median for our household size for Australia.  But we aren't struggling in any sense.  We have plenty of food, everyone is clothed, the house is kept (probably over-)warm in winter, the kids have /too many/ toys, and the whole household has more IT equipment and books than it knows what to do with.  So this aspect - having to worry about CPS because some painters jumped to conclusions while eavesdropping on private conversations - sort of moves this out of funny.

To be clear, though, I'm not being critical of all who have raised this issue on this thread: my husband and I were already talking about this before I posted.  So I absolutely get why you're worried: we are too.  It just feels very weird to me, since I've spent time /genuinely/ poor, so this is baffling...

We're tired of our kids throwing their yogurt, cheese and crackers, and granola bars into the garbage rather than eating their lunches (so they can rush to play with their friends instead of eating), so this week they're just getting sandwiches in their school lunch. I'm sure we'll get calls about it but people will just have to understand. I hate this new attitude that food needs to be available for kids 24/7. When I was a kid it was three meals a day, and no snacking, and we turned out ok.

russianswinga

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2015, 04:06:39 PM »
I second baking them something, and giving them a card with it that: 1) thanks them greatly for their consideration, 2) tells them you donated double (yes, I'd double it!) the amount of the food, because 3) you are both on newborn leave from your professional jobs and have been relaxing casually at home, which may have given them the wrong impression, and 4) you'd like to assure them that your daughter is well fed nutritionally, you just don't shop for fresh vegetables until all perishables are used and you are attempting to teach her that she needs to eat what she's been given before getting more.  (You could joke that you are also trying to wean your husband off junk food by not keeping it in the house.)  And then thank them again, because it really was something nice to do for a couple they thought in difficulty.

And I'd do it in a letter so neither needs to feel awkward.

I'd do it in case they escalate it to CPS and because they could have another job in your area.

THIS.

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2015, 04:29:56 PM »
My family was once investigated by CPS a few years ago due to a complaint someone must have made about my husband. After the investigation the social worker told me that it was such a delight to her to have found us to be such a caring family, and that my husband was an unusually involved and loving father. She said sadly that isn't the case for most of her investigations.

edit: spelling

I guess my point is, misunderstandings do happen sometimes, but getting to meet a nice social worker in your community doesn't have to be as scary as it sounds. My husband jokes that he has been officially certified as a great dad by an expert in the field.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 04:33:07 PM by Redstone5 »

Kepler

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2015, 09:31:28 PM »
My family was once investigated by CPS a few years ago due to a complaint someone must have made about my husband. After the investigation the social worker told me that it was such a delight to her to have found us to be such a caring family, and that my husband was an unusually involved and loving father. She said sadly that isn't the case for most of her investigations.

edit: spelling

I guess my point is, misunderstandings do happen sometimes, but getting to meet a nice social worker in your community doesn't have to be as scary as it sounds. My husband jokes that he has been officially certified as a great dad by an expert in the field.

I'm sure if this happens, we'll get through it fine - although it would potentially be scarier if we were, for example, in the same situation and not entirely fluent in English, or with other markers of difference - or, for that matter, if we were actually low on income (but not low enough that our comments about "no food in the house" were still exaggerations). 

Now, to be fair to the painters, certainly no one has come knocking on the door yet, so I have no reason to assume they did anything other than provide some food.  They also seem to have done it on their final day here, so I'm not sure how to action the cookies and letter...  Will keep an eye out in case they rotate back through.

On why we assume they are critical: this isn't leaping to conclusions - it relates to what they said to my husband when they dropped the food off and, in retrospect, to some pointed questions they had actually been asking me for some days about the new baby, which I didn't think anything of at the time (he's in hand-me-down clothes from sister because... why not? But again, this was taken as another marker of our "poverty"...).  This doesn't change that it was a nice gesture, given they thought we literally had no food - in some ways, it could be harder to give something if you think the people you're giving it to are irresponsible.  Easier to call CPS and let them deal with it...  So they did a nice thing in trying to help us themselves without, as far as I know, doing something that could cause practical problems for us.

On the question of why we (sometimes) change how we dress: I absolutely agree that people should be treated the same way regardless of how they look, and I'm probably at a certain extreme for my gender, in that I don't do any makeup, cut my own hair with a shaver, am always the shortest person in the room because I don't mask it with heels, etc. 

But still, since I actually do have the means to wear clothing without holes, etc., when I go to the shops, it doesn't create huge expense to do this, I know it can distress people in various ways if I don't, and I'm not /seeking/ to create a reaction around how I'm dressed, it's easy enough to do.  At work, I am paid to represent the interests of other people who don't share my values around this - I regard it as "part of the deal" to maintain professional standards of dress, in the same way that it's "part of the deal" to show up at the same time each day, even though I have a very freeform, flexible schedule when I'm off work.  I'm lucky enough to have a job where, most of these time, the dress standards are pretty relaxed - and, to be honest, the schedule is as well when I'm not teaching.  So it's about as good a match as I think I could get in my field - it's then on me to get myself FI if I want to live by my preferences all the time...

I've given a donation to the Salvation Army - cash, as I didn't want to worry anyone about what might have happened to the food in the box: someone around here will no doubt eat what's in it then next time there's "no food in the house"...

Kepler

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2015, 09:37:08 PM »

deborah

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2015, 09:42:33 PM »
You could always give the biscuits and the letter to the landlord for when he pays the painters - just say you wanted to thank the painters for what they had done.

paddedhat

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2015, 11:15:00 PM »
While there, you might see if $5-$10 spent on a couple pieces of clothing might make you look a bit more groomed when going out in public.
My former boss, founder/owner of a couple of oil patch companies and worth a few $100M used to dress in overalls.
He was once thrown out of a Jaguar dealership when he went in to buy a car - which turned out to be very profitable for Lexus over the years.

Hint to luxury car dealerships in oil towns, if the customer's name matches the company name painted on the side of the truck - at least say hello.

  An older, very wealthy friend of ours was famous for some of the rags he wore. He had scheduled a landscaping job worth tens of thousands, with a local nursery. He stopped by their retail store to do a bit of business before the job started, and got treated like a homeless guy by the staff. He walked into the owner's office, explained that his staff treated him like dog shit stuck to their shoes. He made it clear that judging a book by it's cover can be a costly mistake, as he told the owner that he had no interest in doing business with anybody who treats him like that.

Kepler

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2015, 12:18:20 AM »
You could always give the biscuits and the letter to the landlord for when he pays the painters - just say you wanted to thank the painters for what they had done.

That's a good idea - would also give us a chance to make sure our landlord hasn't been given the impression we're in financial strife...

nonsequitur

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2015, 12:19:36 AM »
This thread suddenly reminded me of the "Professor or Hobo?" quiz.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.html

deborah

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2015, 12:42:26 AM »
I got 8/10 - prof - smiles, hobo - doesn't!

RetiredAt63

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2015, 06:53:58 AM »
7/10 - the panda bear threw me.  I have worked with people who looked scruffier, especially after field courses.

Total side note - where were the women?

I got 8/10 - prof - smiles, hobo - doesn't!

benjenn

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2015, 06:59:28 AM »
Honestly, it's refreshing to me that they perceived that good people were in need and they actually did something about it instead of just thinking it was sad and doing nothing. 

How awesome would it be if everyone made an effort like this and actually did something whenever we saw someone we thought was in need -- whether they are or not isn't the point... it's really that there are still good people in the world who want to help others.  I love that.

benjenn

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2015, 07:07:06 AM »
An older, very wealthy friend of ours was famous for some of the rags he wore. He had scheduled a landscaping job worth tens of thousands, with a local nursery. He stopped by their retail store to do a bit of business before the job started, and got treated like a homeless guy by the staff. He walked into the owner's office, explained that his staff treated him like dog shit stuck to their shoes. He made it clear that judging a book by it's cover can be a costly mistake, as he told the owner that he had no interest in doing business with anybody who treats him like that.

When I was 18-21 I worked in a jewelry store.  One day a man came in wearing dirty overalls, a dirty cap and was pretty scruffy.  He told me it was his anniversary and he wanted to look at a necklace for his wife. I showed him several -- including one that was $10,000.  I didn't think he could afford something like that but it never hurts to look at pretty jewelry I figured.

He asked me if he could speak to the manager or owner of the store and I was suddenly afraid I'd done something wrong.  I got the owner and brought him over, really worried about what was about to happen. 

The man told the store owner that he had been to three other jewelry stores and they all treated him like crap.  He told him I was the first person to be nice and helpful to him and he wanted him (the owner) to know what a good employee he had in me.

The he took a giant wad of cash out of his pocket and purchased the $10,000 necklace I had shown him.  :)  Turns out he was a very wealthy farmer who had been out working in his fields when he suddenly remembered it was his anniversary and had to get something fast -- before he had time to clean up.

I was sure glad I hadn't judged a book by it's cover that day!  :)  Too bad I didn't get commission.  LOL.

Candace

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2015, 07:44:18 AM »
I used to have a summer job as a security guard in a casino. We routinely had high rollers who dressed like vagrants. Some of them did it to avoid being labeled targets. Some did it to generally fly under the radar and not be set upon by people wanting to attach themselves to money.

My grandmother drilled into us kids the idea that we were always representing our family, and so it was important to always look presentable and not like slobs. As I've gotten older and more cranky, I have taken on a little more of this point of view. However, I remember my days from the casino and try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

To the OP: good on you for raising your kids in a loving environment with boundaries and not too much "stuff", and holding the line on not eating crap. Sounds like the painters could have just heard some things that they misinterpreted.

scrubbyfish

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2015, 07:55:41 AM »
This thread suddenly reminded me of the "Professor or Hobo?" quiz.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.html

Funny, I found myself guessing (rightly or wrongly) based on happiness in their eyes. I'm used to more hobos than professors having a happy, relaxed countenance with a twinkle in their eye!

Honestly, it's refreshing to me that they perceived that good people were in need and they actually did something about it instead of just thinking it was sad and doing nothing.

I think most or all of us find their direct effort refreshing and positive.

The "book cover" issue, poor communication (poor listening), and concern re: a second direct action (call to CPS) were the only concerns I noted in the thread. (Many people feel they're doing a kindness when they "do something about" a misinterpretation or poor judgement in calling CPS, too, when what they're often doing is messing up an innocent family for a long time. It's a serious concern for families today.)

CommonCents

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2015, 08:33:00 AM »
This thread suddenly reminded me of the "Professor or Hobo?" quiz.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.html

Funny, I found myself guessing (rightly or wrongly) based on happiness in their eyes. I'm used to more hobos than professors having a happy, relaxed countenance with a twinkle in their eye!


I got 10/10!
I guessed based on the unkemptness of their beards (and when doubt, whether they looked like life had wrung them out).
I have also learned that hobos and professors apparently both have beards.

grantmeaname

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2015, 08:58:12 AM »
The best way to figure it out is to look for the recumbent bicycle in the background.

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2015, 09:51:09 AM »
7/10 - the panda bear threw me.  I have worked with people who looked scruffier, especially after field courses.

Total side note - where were the women?

I got 8/10 - prof - smiles, hobo - doesn't!

I only got 5/10, so you can see why I'm terrible at guessing a person's identity only through dress. I assume everyone is a prof (but of course, I do work at a university).

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2015, 09:57:41 AM »
I used to have a summer job as a security guard in a casino. We routinely had high rollers who dressed like vagrants. Some of them did it to avoid being labeled targets. Some did it to generally fly under the radar and not be set upon by people wanting to attach themselves to money.

My grandmother drilled into us kids the idea that we were always representing our family, and so it was important to always look presentable and not like slobs. As I've gotten older and more cranky, I have taken on a little more of this point of view. However, I remember my days from the casino and try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

To the OP: good on you for raising your kids in a loving environment with boundaries and not too much "stuff", and holding the line on not eating crap. Sounds like the painters could have just heard some things that they misinterpreted.

I think it's a cultural thing too. We have family in East Africa, and there it's a big thing to always look neat and tidy. Even maids dress in their best to take the bus and then change into their work clothes when they arrive at the house, and even if you have only one shirt, you wash it out and iron it every night. There are shoe cleaners and polishers on every corner too.

I live in a HCOL city, but people are very west coast/laid back about dress. It's not that weird to have professors making 100k a year to wear sandals and track pants at my work. In fact, sometimes you're considered "stuck up" if you dress too well, or wear a tie. 

okits

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2015, 11:36:39 PM »
This thread suddenly reminded me of the "Professor or Hobo?" quiz.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.html

8/10!  LOL.

OP, how did the cookies and note go?

The Money Monk

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2015, 11:52:53 PM »
I wouldn't feel too bad, I recently posted about how somebody left a "Junk car removal service" business card on my van lol

Rural

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2015, 07:17:00 AM »
7/10 - the panda bear threw me.  I have worked with people who looked scruffier, especially after field courses.

Total side note - where were the women?

I got 8/10 - prof - smiles, hobo - doesn't!


As a prof who is female: profs who are female don't have the latitude to dress like a hobo, even with tenure.

nobodyspecial

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2015, 09:22:14 AM »
As a prof who is female: profs who are female don't have the latitude to dress like a hobo, even with tenure.
It was 20years a go when I was in academia but; pick the science dept of a top ivy league institution and the |bag lady : nobel prize| correlation is still quite high.

Kepler

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2015, 09:24:34 PM »
As a prof who is female: profs who are female don't have the latitude to dress like a hobo, even with tenure.
It was 20years a go when I was in academia but; pick the science dept of a top ivy league institution and the |bag lady : nobel prize| correlation is still quite high.

Yeah, when I was in the US, I felt there were more constraints.  In Australia, there are comparatively few.  Even outside academia, things are more casual as a rule here, but I have even more latitude in my academic workplace, if I'm just interacting with other staff. 

We've had a gradual trend toward marginally more "professional" dress in the workplace - my theory is that the current head of school wears suits, whereas the previous one was strictly business casual, and this has trickled down to eliminate the most casual forms of dress - e.g., I haven't seen jogging shorts in the office in a while, whereas they used to be pretty common...  Although one of the other female academic staff did come in to a mid-summer meeting, when classes weren't in session, in hot pink short-short-shorts, a few months back.  I don't think I'd be confused for a hobo /at/ work, but obviously I'm rocking the look at home...

On the cookies: have to wait until the next time the landlord is on site, which will be next week, since the painters haven't been back...  I likely won't know their reaction.  Landlord might well eat the cookies himself :-)

scrubbyfish

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2015, 09:30:11 PM »
Landlord might well eat the cookies himself :-)

If he does, be sure to get him a Salvation Army food parcel, as this behaviour will clearly indicate unaddressed hunger!

Redstone5

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2015, 09:17:54 AM »
Landlord might well eat the cookies himself :-)

If he does, be sure to get him a Salvation Army food parcel, as this behaviour will clearly indicate unaddressed hunger!

LOL!

Rural

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2015, 12:47:39 PM »
As a prof who is female: profs who are female don't have the latitude to dress like a hobo, even with tenure.
It was 20years a go when I was in academia but; pick the science dept of a top ivy league institution and the |bag lady : nobel prize| correlation is still quite high.


Oh, no argument that Nobel trumps.

KBecks2

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2015, 07:45:26 AM »
Be careful with these things.  You should be dammed glad that they did not call CPS. 

I have a friend who is going through this with her special needs son and it is terrible!

Sorry it happened, sometimes the appearances matter. 

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2015, 08:52:55 PM »
7/10 - the panda bear threw me.  I have worked with people who looked scruffier, especially after field courses.

Total side note - where were the women?

I got 8/10 - prof - smiles, hobo - doesn't!
I'm attending a lecture on Hubble telescope this week and when I saw the reminder with a picture of the lecturer, I thought I recognized him from the quiz.  Nope, but he wouldn't be too out of place in that lineup.

okonumiyaki

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2015, 10:16:35 PM »
I'm originally from the UK, where "old money" deliberately dresses down/ has old cars/ uses inherited furniture (famous put down of a Tory politician "He bought his own furniture")

One of my sister's friends came from money.  Alot of money.  The father unfortunately was manic-depressive, (and ended up killing himself).  He was working at a petrol station, to have something to do.  The owner saw his tax code, and realised just how rich he was.  So he fired him, on the basis that he didn't need the job.  The father bought the closest competing petrol station, and sold petrol at a loss until he had bankrupted the owner.


Boganvillia

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2015, 08:35:32 PM »
A confronting reminder of how topsy turvy mainstream values start to seem after prolonged frugality.

I am at the point where I might see someone with freshly streaked, salon blow-dried har, and assume, 'Poor duck. You'll be working that off for weeks.'

MoonShadow

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Re: So someone brought us a Salvation Army food parcel...
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2015, 09:42:37 PM »
I'm going to disagree with most of the posters here. I do not think that such a donation from the painters, "for the children" was given with the best of intentions.  I think that they gave it because they may think it was of the best of intentions, but is more indicative of a thought process that often results in good people caught up into child protective services' net; because on some level, these painters have come to believe that you are not quite capable of maintaining a household with children on your own, and that is equivalent to bad parenting.

I was, not so long ago, an agent of the state in similar contexts.  Not as a social worker, but as a "resource parenting household".  Basically, foster care.  We have since adopted three children, and are no longer eligible to house wards of the state, because the rules of the state of Kentucky put the maximum at 5 children total per household, and we still have two natural teenagers.  During our "training", we were given several scenarios and asked to decide if the parents were neglectful.  Many included the 'poor' and 'appear poor' households.  Every single one of them were actual cases that were, eventually, ruled to be not neglect by a court somewhere; but only after some unfortunate family was pulled through the ringer.  One that sticks in my mind was a, actually poor, family that had almost no food in the house except dry cereal.  The small children were taken into state care, placed with foster families that had no details of the alleged crimes, and could only visit with their parents one hour per week while under the "supervision" of the foster care family.  This went on until the first court hearing, many weeks later, wherein the judge; almost immediately asked, "how much cereal was in the house?"  and  then asked the CPS lawyer "Is dry cereal an inappropriate meal for a child?"  (Answers were "several boxes of various dry cereals" and "Yes, cereal is typically a well balanced meal nutritionally")  Upon inquiry, the original CPS agent admitted that she removed the children based upon the admission from the mother that the kids have often been fed cereal for dinner.  The judge dismissed the case pretty much immediately, and scolded the CPS agent for imposing her "perspectives" about what qualifies as an appropriate meal nutritionally.  Later details included the additional facts that the father worked, but not a lot due to chronic health issues; the mother was disabled for work prospects (epileptic, IIRC), and the family was on SNAP (government food aid in the States, for those not familiar), and the mother had found a particularly good deal on cereal, and had decided to use up her SNAP funds buying all she could.  The result being that, they had plenty of food, but not much variety, during the month of that CPS visit.

Also, since not all cereal qualifies under SNAP rules, (not the candy cereals like Fruit Loops) we can also infer that these boxes of cereal were the kind that can be lived off of quite well; such as Cherrios, Shredded Wheat, etc.

My belief is that the painters need to be scolded for jumping to conclusions about another household, the box returned to them, and a notice that their attempt to interfere in the raising of children (who are not fat) is offensive and wrong.  This kind of 'Clover' attitude should be opposed, and stamped out of civil societies.