So Millenials now outnumber Boomers...

[mandy_2002]

I am wondering when they will start voting more in their own interests?

...  I think it would be nice if we had a penalty for not voting.  After all, how can we have representative government if only a small portion of the population votes?

I believe the penalty for not voting is that the group that doesn't vote isn't completely satisfied with the results.  However, as many have told me (after I say that, yes, I did vote), "You can't complain about the government if you don't vote."

[TheLazyMan]

It's not important that the Trust Fund is full of IOUs, the government can just borrow money from other places (China, Bonds, etc.) to pay for that debt, which they will do when the money is needed.

That's just a talking point people like to throw out to complain about something, when in reality the Trust Fund is going to run out by 2030 (or so) regardless at which point payments will be dropped to 73% (or so).

You're so obsessed with the mechanism.  The fact is the millenials and gen X will likely pay in as much if not more than the boomers and get less in return. 

If the fund is going to run out of money in 2030 (or 2033), why wait until 2033 and only cut benefits for people at that time?  Cut it a little bit for everyone today so you don't have to cut it a lot for the younger generation.

Not only that, but when the fund stops loaning money to the federal government interest rates will likely increase so other taxes will have to increase to pay for that.

[forummm]

Maybe when Treasury interest rates increase, the SS Trust Fund will grow enough to stay fully solvent for a few more years.

[nobodyspecial]

That's why you port in the L Funds (or all the TSP funds if you want).  Low Expense Ratios so you don't have corporations stealing money from retirees.

Then you end up with a two-tier system.
People with high incomes and large funds are "accredited savers" and can put the money where they want.
If banks are forced to offer retirement saving plans to poor people and the people are forced to open them -  they are going to see a way to make a profit dealing with customers that have no other choice.

The UK put a cap on fees (1% or 1.5% ?) on what they called a basic pension plan, but the banks weren't interested in offering this to low level savers and it wasn't compulsory, so they only benefited high rate taxpayers.

   

[EricP]

It's not important that the Trust Fund is full of IOUs, the government can just borrow money from other places (China, Bonds, etc.) to pay for that debt, which they will do when the money is needed.

That's just a talking point people like to throw out to complain about something, when in reality the Trust Fund is going to run out by 2030 (or so) regardless at which point payments will be dropped to 73% (or so).

You're so obsessed with the mechanism.  The fact is the millenials and gen X will likely pay in as much if not more than the boomers and get less in return. 

If the fund is going to run out of money in 2030 (or 2033), why wait until 2033 and only cut benefits for people at that time?  Cut it a little bit for everyone today so you don't have to cut it a lot for the younger generation.

Not only that, but when the fund stops loaning money to the federal government interest rates will likely increase so other taxes will have to increase to pay for that.

I'm obsessed with the mechanism?  I don't even know what that means.  I just called you out for a lie (that Boomers constantly decreased taxes when in reality SS tax has only gone up).  As for who's paid more, every generation has had to pay more than the previous generation, so I don't really know why you're getting all butthurt at the Baby Boomers when BBs had to pay more than the Silent Generation who had to pay more than The Greatest Generation who had to pay for the Lost Generation that barely paid into the system.

Millenials and Gen Xers love to blame Baby Boomers for all their problems, but all I see is people want at 20 what their parents had at 40.

[EricP]

That's why you port in the L Funds (or all the TSP funds if you want).  Low Expense Ratios so you don't have corporations stealing money from retirees.

Then you end up with a two-tier system.
People with high incomes and large funds are "accredited savers" and can put the money where they want.
If banks are forced to offer retirement saving plans to poor people and the people are forced to open them -  they are going to see a way to make a profit dealing with customers that have no other choice.

The UK put a cap on fees (1% or 1.5% ?) on what they called a basic pension plan, but the banks weren't interested in offering this to low level savers and it wasn't compulsory, so they only benefited high rate taxpayers.

 

I think you're missing that the funds will be run by the government, not by the banks.  Am I wrong to assume you know what the TSP is?

[nobodyspecial]

I think you're missing that the funds will be run by the government, not by the banks.  Am I wrong to assume you know what the TSP is?

Yep no idea what a TSP is.  I was responding to the original idea of "abolish SS, force people to save privately, let the banks handle it" as perhaps not the rosy low-cost future of market optimization that an economist might predict.

[EricP]

I think you're missing that the funds will be run by the government, not by the banks.  Am I wrong to assume you know what the TSP is?

Yep no idea what a TSP is.  I was responding to the original idea of "abolish SS, force people to save privately, let the banks handle it" as perhaps not the rosy low-cost future of market optimization that an economist might predict.

TSP is the Thrift Savings Plan, it's the 401k equivalent for federal government workers.  So, when I say "Private SS" I mean each person has their own private account they can look at and own and see how much is in it, but it would still be in government managed funds.  It works well for federal workers, so no reason it wouldn't work for everyone.  The "Let the banks handle it" was never part of my original idea and something you added in probably because you didn't know what a TSP was.

[TheLazyMan]

It's not important that the Trust Fund is full of IOUs, the government can just borrow money from other places (China, Bonds, etc.) to pay for that debt, which they will do when the money is needed.

That's just a talking point people like to throw out to complain about something, when in reality the Trust Fund is going to run out by 2030 (or so) regardless at which point payments will be dropped to 73% (or so).

You're so obsessed with the mechanism.  The fact is the millenials and gen X will likely pay in as much if not more than the boomers and get less in return. 

If the fund is going to run out of money in 2030 (or 2033), why wait until 2033 and only cut benefits for people at that time?  Cut it a little bit for everyone today so you don't have to cut it a lot for the younger generation.

Not only that, but when the fund stops loaning money to the federal government interest rates will likely increase so other taxes will have to increase to pay for that.

I'm obsessed with the mechanism?  I don't even know what that means.  I just called you out for a lie (that Boomers constantly decreased taxes when in reality SS tax has only gone up).  As for who's paid more, every generation has had to pay more than the previous generation, so I don't really know why you're getting all butthurt at the Baby Boomers when BBs had to pay more than the Silent Generation who had to pay more than The Greatest Generation who had to pay for the Lost Generation that barely paid into the system.

Millenials and Gen Xers love to blame Baby Boomers for all their problems, but all I see is people want at 20 what their parents had at 40.

SS tax has not gone up in the past 35 years, and I never said it was decreased  Other taxes have decreased.  I have not lied about a thing.  You'd obviously rather lower your own taxes so your kids can pay for the next 20 years what you want to buy today.

Anyway the point isn't that millenials and gen x-ers are paying more just as those before them did.  It's that they're paying more and getting less in return by your own admission.  That's not too hard to understand is it?

By the way I could quit working today, never get a dime of SS and be just fine.  I'm not blaming anyone else for my "problems".  If SS went bankrupt tomorrow I wouldn't have a problem.  The fact is the baby boomers have always felt entitled because as the largest generation until now society has catered to their every whim.

[RangerOne]

At the extremes of the millennial generation the 15 and 35 year olds may have little in common. Teenagers are kind of their own special group. I am 30 now and most of my friends are 29-33 so I am among the oldest millennials. But if you strip away the maturity that comes with transitioning from living with your parents as a teenager for being out of college and dealing with starting a family, loans and financial issues I think there are some similarities worthy of bunching us all up in one generation.

- We have all had similar access to high speed internet with a rich sea of websites and resources.
-. We have seen similar kinds of new media focused more heavily on sensationalism and entertainment than news.
- In early high school 2001 we saw 9-11 and the beginning of the war on terror along with a major market crash. The war on terror has 
  persisted and we are likely to experience another large market swing.
- Everyone is this generation was the first to go to school and work with social media. Facebook launched my first year of college, slightly older people had myspace.

Our voting impact was certainly blamed in part for Obama's second term. We are more racially diverse than the boomer generation with apparently 42 percent identifying as not white. 61% our generation versus 41% in the boomer generation have attended college.

But this generation is still too young to be in any real position of power. We have outliers like Mark Zuckerberg, our first millennial CEO, but the truth is big business and politics is still mostly in the hands of Boomers and soon the apparently forgotten generation X. About 45-65 seem to be the golden years for reaching the top of the ladder and lets face it most of the politicians they influence are old. The average age of our law makers is 57-62 years...

If you look at the trends since the baby-boomer generation, we are becoming more secular and more tolerant as we move forward. In fairness those numbers may change as I think some people find religion in their older years for comfort. Also most becomes a little more adverse to change as they age.

It would probably be more interesting to see how our generations ideas compared to the past generations when they were our age.

[MoneyCat]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

[TheLazyMan]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

Sounds like how the baby boomer's parents described them.

[MoneyCat]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

Sounds like how the baby boomer's parents described them.

Yeah, and look at how that turned out.  Financial disaster, SS going bankrupt, the worst financial inequality since the 1920s, free trade destroying US manufacturing, the AIDS crisis, etc.

[TheLazyMan]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

Sounds like how the baby boomer's parents described them.

Yeah, and look at how that turned out.  Financial disaster, SS going bankrupt, the worst financial inequality since the 1920s, free trade destroying US manufacturing, the AIDS crisis, etc.

Come on, every generation complains about the younger generation's lack of ambition and lack of reverence to institutions.  My point was it's no different than any previous generation.

[Philociraptor]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

Sounds like how the baby boomer's parents described them.

Yeah, and look at how that turned out.  Financial disaster, SS going bankrupt, the worst financial inequality since the 1920s, free trade destroying US manufacturing, the AIDS crisis, etc.

Come on, every generation complains about the younger generation's lack of ambition and lack of reverence to institutions.  My point was it's no different than any previous generation.

This. As each generation grows older, they tend to look back into history and look out into the larger world around them more. Nearsightedness is a symptom of youth, not being part of a singular generation. Each generation decides on and keeps what they think works and leaves the rest.

[Tyson]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

Sounds like how the baby boomer's parents described them.

Yeah, and look at how that turned out.  Financial disaster, SS going bankrupt, the worst financial inequality since the 1920s, free trade destroying US manufacturing, the AIDS crisis, etc.

Come on, every generation complains about the younger generation's lack of ambition and lack of reverence to institutions.  My point was it's no different than any previous generation.

[EricP]

SS tax has not gone up in the past 35 years, and I never said it was decreased  Other taxes have decreased.  I have not lied about a thing.  You'd obviously rather lower your own taxes so your kids can pay for the next 20 years what you want to buy today.

Anyway the point isn't that millenials and gen x-ers are paying more just as those before them did.  It's that they're paying more and getting less in return by your own admission.  That's not too hard to understand is it?

By the way I could quit working today, never get a dime of SS and be just fine.  I'm not blaming anyone else for my "problems".  If SS went bankrupt tomorrow I wouldn't have a problem.  The fact is the baby boomers have always felt entitled because as the largest generation until now society has catered to their every whim.

In your initial quote you said "Baby Boomers" have been voting to decrease taxes their whole life and now SS is going to go bankrupt.  You were being incredibly disingenuous by framing the sentence like that, implying that decreases in taxes in other places have any impact.  As for having "your kids pay for it in 20 years" like I said every generation has paid more into SS than others.  This is just classic bitch about Boomers crap.  Like they're the only ones who can vote.  At this point it's not the Boomers voting for this stuff, it's the two generations that outnumber them that are voting for this stuff.  You've got two generations of people who are going to get less from SS and yet no changes are made to the program.

And you talk about entitlement?  Really?  Gen X and Millenials are much more entitled than any other generation before them.  And I'm saying this as a Millenial.  They want at 23 what their parents had at 45, and don't realize that this is the reason why they are screwed.  They live large in college and then bitch about their student loans when they took 5 years to get through and used their student loans to drink beer.

[SisterX]

I've noticed that most Millennials seem to like change for change's sake.  They tend to reject anything traditional as old and meaningless, so they aren't terribly interested in history and see older generations as completely out-of-touch.  Some of this is due to the fact that Millennials are young and young people tend to be a bit myopic, but it does seem that the generational trend leans toward dismissiveness of anything established as irrelevant and obsolete.

Again, this is just thinking generally.  There are quite a few Millennials who defy this stereotype.

And yet, Millenials tend to be the ones driving the push toward things like canning and gardening and DIY type stuff, SAHM parenting.  That's...the essence of tradition.  Have you missed all of the baffled articles by boomers regarding the fact that us young'uns more closely resemble their grandparents than we do them? 
Just because we've seen how the previous generations did things and rejected it doesn't mean that it's "change for change's sake".  We're also the ones who are going to be dealing with the reality of things like climate change, less oil, possibly not having social security (as others have pointed out), and a whole host of other things which the older generations, with the exception of GenX, never had to or don't really have to deal with.  To say that we're all just rejecting out of hand what generations before us have built is to ignore the fact that this generation has unique problems facing it, as have the generations before.  We don't really have to deal with DDT and gas rationing and Vietnam like boomers did, or the Great Depression and WWII and rationing ALL the things like my grandparents did, nor the AIDS crisis and the Cold War like GenX.  Every generation has unique challenges facing them and unique world events which shape their point of view.  And every generation deals with those challenges in ways which make sense TO THEM.  Don't go around dismissing an entire generation simply because you don't understand the problems they face from their perspective.

FWIW, I'm in my early 30s so I'm part of the oldest group of Millenials.  I agree that there are many things I don't have in common with 15 year olds, but it's a safe bet that I have more in common with those young whippersnappers than I do with most of my parents' generation.  The Boomers ARE out of touch.  When's the last time you knew a Boomer who was really, truly on the forefront of technology, or any other trend?  I'm not talking about knowing celebrity gossip or being among the first to get a new gadget.  They can afford the gadgets, they just don't know how to use them, so they'll go home and have their kids show them how to use it, or not ask for help and have their kids later say, "Dear God, let me show you how to fix that in your settings.  Don't you know how to use your own phone?"  Face it, the Boomers are out of touch.  I fully expect that my generation will be out of touch one day too, and I'm fine with that.

Frankly, aside from their apparent love of Justin Bieber (WHY?!), I'm pretty proud of most of the young Millenials.  They're more tolerant and have more of a sense of the interconnectedness of people than even my cohort does.  (And yes, I do know quite a few kids who are still in high school.)  They get a bad rap through the media, but most kids I've met really want to WORK to make the world better, not just see it passing by and be mediocre and do what their parents did.  Are you saying that's a bad thing?

So, yes.  We're willing to challenge the status quo and change things.  Frankly, it's because the status quo doesn't work, not because we're rejecting things out of hand.  At least we're willing to try new things, and to change!  I love that people throw change out there as if it's a dirty word.  "Ewww, the Millennials want to CHANGE things!"  Yep, because it's better than being stuck in our current shitty-ass system and telling ourselves that we're the greatest fucking country ever while simultaneously complaining about how horrible things are like the Boomers do, or taking the defeatist route and saying that nothing ever changes while never lifting a finger to create change like GenX has apparently done.  Go ahead and tell yourself that it's just because we're dismissive of what the older generations have accomplished, but that's a horribly myopic worldview.

[MDM]

Millenials will vote more as they age and engage in their communities as stakeholders.  Boomers used to have an abysmal voting record until they had kids, bought houses and had careers rather than just jobs.

This. And in 40 years, Millenials will be yelling at whatever the next generation is called to get off their lawns. History repeats itself with shocking regularity.

Come on, every generation complains about the younger generation's lack of ambition and lack of reverence to institutions.  My point was it's no different than any previous generation.

This. As each generation grows older, they tend to look back into history and look out into the larger world around them more. Nearsightedness is a symptom of youth, not being part of a singular generation. Each generation decides on and keeps what they think works and leaves the rest.

+1 to all the above.

Aka plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[deborah]

And yet, Millenials tend to be the ones driving the push toward things like canning and gardening and DIY type stuff, ....

The Boomers ARE out of touch.  When's the last time you knew a Boomer who was really, truly on the forefront of technology, or any other trend?  I'm not talking about knowing celebrity gossip or being among the first to get a new gadget.  They can afford the gadgets, they just don't know how to use them, so they'll go home and have their kids show them how to use it, or not ask for help and have their kids later say, "Dear God, let me show you how to fix that in your settings.  Don't you know how to use your own phone?"  Face it, the Boomers are out of touch.  I fully expect that my generation will be out of touch one day too, and I'm fine with that.

A few years ago, I did a degree course in Fashion Design, including Photoshop and a lot of gadgets, such as 3D printers... The 18 and 19 year olds were always asking me how to do stuff after the teacher had left for the day. And how to work all the new-fangled gadgets! I am a retired boomer. I was astounded at how little they actually knew about the new stuff. However, let's face it, my working life had been the technical side of computing, and they were all of the non-nerd arty types - so I should have shone!

Some of the reasons I got into the course (fashion design is notoriously difficult to get into) after being a nerd all my life were that I had been doing the DIY, sewing, gardening and canning stuff, which you also claim I don't do!

While I agree that millennials can work modern devices relatively quickly and efficiently, and boomers are often afraid of these devices (I have taught sewing classes where people had not opened the box of their sewing machine because it was computerized), there are quite a few boomers who have more than a passing knowledge of these devices, especially as we were the ones who were on the cutting edge of that technology.

[gillstone]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20140906.png

[NoraLenderbee]

It's not important that the Trust Fund is full of IOUs, the government can just borrow money from other places (China, Bonds, etc.) to pay for that debt, which they will do when the money is needed.

That's just a talking point people like to throw out to complain about something, when in reality the Trust Fund is going to run out by 2030 (or so) regardless at which point payments will be dropped to 73% (or so).

You're so obsessed with the mechanism.  The fact is the millenials and gen X will likely pay in as much if not more than the boomers and get less in return. 

If the fund is going to run out of money in 2030 (or 2033), why wait until 2033 and only cut benefits for people at that time?  Cut it a little bit for everyone today so you don't have to cut it a lot for the younger generation.

Not only that, but when the fund stops loaning money to the federal government interest rates will likely increase so other taxes will have to increase to pay for that.

I'm obsessed with the mechanism?  I don't even know what that means.  I just called you out for a lie (that Boomers constantly decreased taxes when in reality SS tax has only gone up).  As for who's paid more, every generation has had to pay more than the previous generation, so I don't really know why you're getting all butthurt at the Baby Boomers when BBs had to pay more than the Silent Generation who had to pay more than The Greatest Generation who had to pay for the Lost Generation that barely paid into the system.

Millenials and Gen Xers love to blame Baby Boomers for all their problems, but all I see is people want at 20 what their parents had at 40.

SS tax has not gone up in the past 35 years, and I never said it was decreased  Other taxes have decreased.  I have not lied about a thing.  You'd obviously rather lower your own taxes so your kids can pay for the next 20 years what you want to buy today.

SS tax has gone up five times in the last 35 years. It was lowered once and then raised a sixth time. I'm not calling you a liar, but your statement is obviously wrong.

http://www.tax-atlas.com/historical-fica-tax-rates/

http://payroll.wsu.edu/taxes/hist-oasi.htm

[simmias]

And yet, Millenials tend to be the ones driving the push toward things like canning and gardening and DIY type stuff, SAHM parenting.  That's...the essence of tradition.  Have you missed all of the baffled articles by boomers regarding the fact that us young'uns more closely resemble their grandparents than we do them? 
Just because we've seen how the previous generations did things and rejected it doesn't mean that it's "change for change's sake".  We're also the ones who are going to be dealing with the reality of things like climate change, less oil, possibly not having social security (as others have pointed out), and a whole host of other things which the older generations, with the exception of GenX, never had to or don't really have to deal with.  To say that we're all just rejecting out of hand what generations before us have built is to ignore the fact that this generation has unique problems facing it, as have the generations before.  We don't really have to deal with DDT and gas rationing and Vietnam like boomers did, or the Great Depression and WWII and rationing ALL the things like my grandparents did, nor the AIDS crisis and the Cold War like GenX.  Every generation has unique challenges facing them and unique world events which shape their point of view.  And every generation deals with those challenges in ways which make sense TO THEM.  Don't go around dismissing an entire generation simply because you don't understand the problems they face from their perspective.

FWIW, I'm in my early 30s so I'm part of the oldest group of Millenials.  I agree that there are many things I don't have in common with 15 year olds, but it's a safe bet that I have more in common with those young whippersnappers than I do with most of my parents' generation.  The Boomers ARE out of touch.  When's the last time you knew a Boomer who was really, truly on the forefront of technology, or any other trend?  I'm not talking about knowing celebrity gossip or being among the first to get a new gadget.  They can afford the gadgets, they just don't know how to use them, so they'll go home and have their kids show them how to use it, or not ask for help and have their kids later say, "Dear God, let me show you how to fix that in your settings.  Don't you know how to use your own phone?"  Face it, the Boomers are out of touch.  I fully expect that my generation will be out of touch one day too, and I'm fine with that.

Frankly, aside from their apparent love of Justin Bieber (WHY?!), I'm pretty proud of most of the young Millenials.  They're more tolerant and have more of a sense of the interconnectedness of people than even my cohort does.  (And yes, I do know quite a few kids who are still in high school.)  They get a bad rap through the media, but most kids I've met really want to WORK to make the world better, not just see it passing by and be mediocre and do what their parents did.  Are you saying that's a bad thing?

So, yes.  We're willing to challenge the status quo and change things.  Frankly, it's because the status quo doesn't work, not because we're rejecting things out of hand.  At least we're willing to try new things, and to change!  I love that people throw change out there as if it's a dirty word.  "Ewww, the Millennials want to CHANGE things!"  Yep, because it's better than being stuck in our current shitty-ass system and telling ourselves that we're the greatest fucking country ever while simultaneously complaining about how horrible things are like the Boomers do, or taking the defeatist route and saying that nothing ever changes while never lifting a finger to create change like GenX has apparently done.  Go ahead and tell yourself that it's just because we're dismissive of what the older generations have accomplished, but that's a horribly myopic worldview.

What's the Twain quote?  "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."

Your post is making me play into your Gen X stereotypes for me: there's so much wrong here, but I don't think it's worth the effort of trying to do anything about it.

[TheLazyMan]

SS tax has gone up five times in the last 35 years. It was lowered once and then raised a sixth time. I'm not calling you a liar, but your statement is obviously wrong.

http://www.tax-atlas.com/historical-fica-tax-rates/

http://payroll.wsu.edu/taxes/hist-oasi.htm

My bad.  I was looking at a chart where the minute changes weren't apparent.