Author Topic: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?  (Read 16987 times)

Buffaloski Boris

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Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« on: September 26, 2020, 03:53:11 PM »
We keep on hearing about a mass exodus from American cities due to COVID, crime, rioting, high cost of living, etc. Here is a Bloomberg article that throws some cold water on that narrative:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-16/the-truth-about-american-migration-during-covid

So here is the question: are you planning on moving to a new city/town/area in the near future and if so, why?

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 04:23:41 PM »
I'll raise my hand.  My work relocated me to a shithole (again), so I have requested a severance package as part of their scheduled lay-offs.  I'm tired of the costs with maintaining a high salary; particularly the cost of happiness in a shithole town.

buying a house in this "environment" was not exactly easier either.  two towns, 6 offers later, I have a place that did appraise over purchase price...in a much smaller, cooler small town.

brooklynmoney

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2020, 04:26:38 PM »
Yes I am one of the shameful who fled BK for the burbs haha. I’d been meaning to do it for the last two years but never had time due to always being on a plane. That said my $ is still in BK in the form of my condo which I rented out.

AerynLee

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2020, 04:43:37 PM »
We're moving to a rural location a couple miles outside of our current city. Not because of any of the reason you listed, we're just a couple of kids who grew up very rural on acreages who have been living in cities for the last 16 years and ready (mentally and financially) to get out. I will say though, now that we've found our next house every time there's any noise around us (loud cars, trains, sirens, kids playing in the park across the street) we're overjoyed that we won't have to hear them again in a few more weeks.

Gone Fishing

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2020, 04:50:38 PM »
Did it over a decade ago.  I miss very little.  About the only thing I can put my finger on, other than a few friends, is our old discount theatre. Every time I go back for something, the rat race is worse.  Plenty of Covid around, but no doubt we are avoiding a lot of the current mess. 

On my limited trips out, it does seems like I have seen more out of state plates than usual (or maybe I'm just noticing more?).  While people may not be changing their state of residence, I think many are utilizing second homes more than usual.  Some are not happy about this, but the way I see it, Covid was coming no matter what.

Those of us that understand personal finances, have known, for quite sime time, that the masses make poor decisions.  We can't expect it to be any different with Covid.  I can't spend my life blaming sheep for being sheep.

Cranky

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2020, 05:00:51 PM »
I already live in the sticks. I am amused to visit some Big City annually, but a week is plenty.

We are preparing to move to a different state in the next year as dh retires.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2020, 05:21:07 PM »
YES. I hope to leave my city in the next year or two.

Why? I guess I could say that most of Virginia east of the Shenandoah sucks, and that would be true. But that’s not really sufficient. Suckfulness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. And mere escape from Virginia isn’t a plan for improvement. So a deeper look is in order.

TAXES. Virginia is the nickel and dime capitol of the East. If there is a way to tax you, Virginia has implemented it. State income tax? You bet! Sales taxes ? Got em! Property taxes? On everything including cars, houses, mobile homes, work tools, and inventory. Road taxes? Virginia has got you covered with red light cameras and a state wide speed trap. It’s all about the coin. HOW TO IMPROVE: move to a state that is not quite so aggressive on taxes.

SERVICES: or more the lack thereof. You’d think for what we pay on taxes we’d have great services. We don’t. The public schools suck and the traffic sucks due to a lack of roads. Any new freeway is a toll opportunity. HOW TO IMPROVE: go someplace with better services or much lower taxes as I don’t get the services anyways.

BUGS: Virginia has ever blood-sucking insect you can imagine. Ticks, fleas, chiggers, mosquitoes. If you want to itch, this is the place to do it. HOW TO IMPROVE: go someplace drier.

BIKING: this is a good place to die if you ride a bike. The drivers are awful and there aren’t nearly enough bike paths. HOW TO IMPROVE: pick a bike friendly city.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2020, 05:51:25 PM »
I don't live in the States any more but I spent part of my life in an affluent suburb of a big city in a blue state and it was absolutely amazing. I think we were in the top 5 school districts in the whole country (by educational achievement and by % of parents with higher degrees). Good schools, good amenities and good incomes. I'd be interested to know whether it's still like that in the states. If it is, I'd love to have lived there.

LWYRUP

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2020, 05:54:27 PM »
I don't live in the States any more but I spent part of my life in an affluent suburb of a big city in a blue state and it was absolutely amazing. I think we were in the top 5 school districts in the whole country (by educational achievement and by % of parents with higher degrees). Good schools, good amenities and good incomes. I'd be interested to know whether it's still like that in the states. If it is, I'd love to have lived there.

Generally, inequality has increased.  So, yes, it's likely the same or better. 

(Not celebrating inequality, just recognizing that this is not a universal description of the country.)

Zikoris

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 06:07:40 PM »
I'm leaving Vancouver as soon as I retire because it's getting pretty fucked up these days with crime. Specifically, homeless drug addicts committing crimes ranging from property damage/theft to stabbing people (in the past 36 hours there were four stabbings in the downtown area, where I live). Also, lots of needles and garbage and human shit, and it's getting worse over time. I hope one day they find a solution, I really do, but as for me, I'm moving to a remote island those people can't get to.

rockstache

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2020, 06:15:31 PM »
Yes, we are moving soon. We’ve wanted to move to another state to be close to family for a while. The pandemic forcing our employers to let us work from home is what has made it possible.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2020, 07:42:00 PM »
I already live in the sticks.

+1

It's where I want to be.

Steeze

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2020, 08:28:43 PM »
In NYC and no immediate plans to leave.

I mean, I was planning on leaving for the last 6 years, just keep OMY-ing it.

I own a place here which makes it complicated to leave, and my job is 100% not remote. I also make about 50%-100% more here than I would in other places. I’m 5 years from FI if I stay here and keep saving at this rate.

Complication: have our first child on the way. We live in a 1-br, childcare is $2k/mo, and I like trees the woods. And mountains.

If I could keep my salary I would leave tomorrow even if that meant taking a $10-20k loss on our condo. just hate the idea of adding another 5 years to FI if I move. Hell, even if I could keep 75% of my salary I would leave.

As far as COVID, crime and the riots or whatever... I mean, if you don’t watch the news I basically wouldn’t be able to tell. I have to wear a mask everywhere but aside from that it is all good. I’m around all different parts of the city at all times of day and night for my job and I haven’t noticed anything different.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2020, 08:43:59 PM »
I will say though, now that we've found our next house every time there's any noise around us (loud cars, trains, sirens, kids playing in the park across the street) we're overjoyed that we won't have to hear them again in a few more weeks.

Lol, I thought the same when I moved to a rural area.  In reality, the noises just changed.  Neighbors' dogs barking all day, roosters crowing at 4AM, the guy down the road whose favorite hobby is apparently revving his chainsaw, loud heavy machinery from the farm next door, selective timber cutting which can go on for 12 hours a day for weeks, or the yahoo who rides his ATV in the forest behind my property.  Not to mention the regular occurrence of a landowner selling the family farm to a developer and the ~year of construction noises that ensue as yet another sub-development goes in.

I still prefer rural life, but it's not nearly as quiet and idyllic as I imagined it would be.

ender

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2020, 08:44:41 PM »
Our 5-10 year plan is to have an acreage with woods, a large garden, and a nice workshop.

That was the case before covid but covid has made me realize just how much I do in fact like working remotely.

julia

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2020, 08:50:06 PM »
We live in a regional small-mid sized city outside of the greater Toronto area. The area is low to no-income (gotta keep the savings rate high with low rent am I right?). I've always loved nature and mountains... I've traveled to over 30 countries across 4 continents and have almost completely avoided major cities.
With recent world events, we are SOOOOO done with living amongst the sheep. Hoping to quit our jobs and do a long-term workaway in British Columbia next year which will hopefully turn into a permanent move. We're both 26, and are one third on our
way to FIRE. Things have a way of working out on their own right?

Anyone know anyone living in BC who is into permaculture, sustainability, etc and needs help? Haha

AerynLee

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2020, 08:59:08 PM »
I will say though, now that we've found our next house every time there's any noise around us (loud cars, trains, sirens, kids playing in the park across the street) we're overjoyed that we won't have to hear them again in a few more weeks.

Lol, I thought the same when I moved to a rural area.  In reality, the noises just changed.  Neighbors' dogs barking all day, roosters crowing at 4AM, the guy down the road whose favorite hobby is apparently revving his chainsaw, loud heavy machinery from the farm next door, selective timber cutting which can go on for 12 hours a day for weeks, or the yahoo who rides his ATV in the forest behind my property.  Not to mention the regular occurrence of a landowner selling the family farm to a developer and the ~year of construction noises that ensue as yet another sub-development goes in.

I still prefer rural life, but it's not nearly as quiet and idyllic as I imagined it would be.
Oh, yeah, definitely still noises. Where I grew up and where I'm moving to are surrounded by cornfields so we'll get the combines at all hours of the night during planting/harvest seasons. Back home we had cropdusters, not sure if they do that here. There's a small manufacturer close enough that I will probably hear noises from there, though we didn't hear anything the two times we saw the place and it's not the type of thing that would likely run late at night. And we're probably (hopefully) many years from sub-developments moving into the area. In this particular place I think my main concern would be neighbor dogs, but again, we didn't hear any when we were out there so fingers crossed it's not too bad.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2020, 09:02:42 PM »
I don't live in the States any more but I spent part of my life in an affluent suburb of a big city in a blue state and it was absolutely amazing. I think we were in the top 5 school districts in the whole country (by educational achievement and by % of parents with higher degrees). Good schools, good amenities and good incomes. I'd be interested to know whether it's still like that in the states. If it is, I'd love to have lived there.

Generally, inequality has increased.  So, yes, it's likely the same or better. 

(Not celebrating inequality, just recognizing that this is not a universal description of the country.)

In which case I would have loved to have stayed.

The US gets so much flak both internally and externally yet so few recognise that it is a wonderful place for both home-grown and international talent to be nurtured. If you are a lawyer, software engineer, or entrepreneur, there is no better place in the world than the US - still a melting pot and still a crucible of talent.

Zikoris

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2020, 09:04:40 PM »
We live in a regional small-mid sized city outside of the greater Toronto area. The area is low to no-income (gotta keep the savings rate high with low rent am I right?). I've always loved nature and mountains... I've traveled to over 30 countries across 4 continents and have almost completely avoided major cities.
With recent world events, we are SOOOOO done with living amongst the sheep. Hoping to quit our jobs and do a long-term workaway in British Columbia next year which will hopefully turn into a permanent move. We're both 26, and are one third on our
way to FIRE. Things have a way of working out on their own right?

Anyone know anyone living in BC who is into permaculture, sustainability, etc and needs help? Haha

I'm expecting to crack in about a year or two and run screaming to an island. The islands here are big on all that stuff. You should look into island life (Gabriola, Mayne, Texada, etc).

AMandM

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2020, 09:39:20 PM »
We're in an inner-ring suburb of DC, having moved here from an outer suburb five years ago, and have no plans to move. All the reasons why we moved still apply, and more: I like urbanish life, we have a fantastic community, we live next door to the community garden, DH's parents are nearby and my father just moved in with us, and our grown kids and grandkids have settled around the corner.

2sk22

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2020, 02:59:29 AM »
Live in an inner suburb of NY City in NJ and have absolutely no intent of moving. We like the place.

Schmidty

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2020, 04:46:27 AM »
Got out last year.  Part of the plan to severely reduce expenses.  Working on our 5 acres to get more self sustainable to reduce expenses even further.  I get to see deer grazing in the mornings, and the turkeys marching down our dirt road in the evening.  If we didn't read up on any news or don't go to town for a few days I wouldn't know anything was going on.

obstinate

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2020, 07:37:46 AM »
Living in brooklyn with no plans to leave. We are actually putting more money into the house with a big kitchen remodel that involves some structural work. I'm a little nervous about it because it seems like there is a ~10% chance that NYC has big trouble as a result of covid. However, we now have so much saved beyond what we would conceivably need, and each year our stacks seem to grow faster and faster. So I feel relatively safe spending the money. In the unlikely event we have to write off the house we would still be fine as our equity is only around 15% of our nominal net worth.

That being said, the attraction of the city is surely less than it was before covid. All the fun things we used to be able to do are hard to do now, doubly so because our youngest is still a toddler and can't go far on his own two feet. And mass transit is really not something we are interested in doing right now if we can avoid it. But I suspect that post covid we will be back to how things were and it should all be ok. Hard to see from here to there though. It feels so far away.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 07:40:08 AM by obstinate »

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2020, 01:35:38 PM »
We are in Philly and have no intention of moving for at least a few more years. I'm generally happy with our city's handling of covid, and there would have been a lot less rioting had police not provoked it by using disproportionate force and siding with vigilante groups early on. Lately, protests have been calmer and we don't feel at all unsafe. I think eventually, covid and the protests will die down, and we will get back to the fun things we like about the city that have been on pause the past few months.

Dave1442397

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2020, 02:36:10 PM »
I'm in a suburb of Philly in NJ, and while we plan on staying until we retire, there's no way I'm staying here once we're done working. Actually, if my wife retires first, I'll just work remotely from a new location, preferably the Lake Tahoe/Reno area.

Taxes are a large part of my decision. Our property taxes are $12k/year now, and NJ taxes retirement income. The traffic sucks, although it's not nearly as bad due to COVID. Pre-COVID, I tried not to leave the house between 2:30pm and 6:30pm. The weather's ok, but I much prefer the high-altitude sunshine and lack of bugs.

Villanelle

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2020, 03:06:52 PM »
Probably, but because of DH's work and a very likely transfer.  Not a matter in which we have any choice.  Depending on where we end up, however, we may go from dense town living to something secluded.  When we know a move will almost certainly be for no more than a couple years, we like the idea of trying on a new sort of life to see what fits.  And at this point, the most likely options don't seem to offer either truly urban, big city life, or town life (think walking main street, row houses, etc.), unless we are willing to buy a long commute.  Which we of course aren't. 

If a wrench is thrown in the works and we end up somewhere that does have something comparable to where we live now, we'd jump on that.  The lifestyle suits us so well, even though homes are smaller, rents are cheaper, and crime is somewhat higher. 

projekt

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2020, 03:08:13 PM »
I'm in Atlanta with no particular desire to move.  I notice that house prices are already up like 10% or so for the year, so there doesn't seem to be a mass exodus. I expect that concerts and such will resume in a year or so.

Chrissy

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2020, 04:07:58 PM »
We keep on hearing about a mass exodus from American cities due to COVID, crime, rioting, high cost of living, etc. Here is a Bloomberg article that throws some cold water on that narrative:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-16/the-truth-about-american-migration-during-covid

So here is the question: are you planning on moving to a new city/town/area in the near future and if so, why?

We are considering it for all of the reasons you listed.  My job is what keeps us in Chicago.  I'll hear shortly if there's any hope of rejoining my company before the fall of '21.  If not, we've decided to cut and run.  We own a rural lake house is a state that's doing great with covid.  Two families of relatives are also on our lake, as well as high school and family friends.  The parochial preschool in the neighborhood and the public school nearby are excellent.

My husband is definitely ready to be rid of the high rent on our small apartment in Chicago, the $160/mo for the parking garage, the exorbitant daycare costs, and the higher grocery and gas prices.  When there are riots, they shut down the roads and lift the bridges, so it adds an hour to our trip back from the lake house.  Parks are closed in Chicago, but not in the communities around our lake house.  In Chicago, about a week ago, I was harassed on 3 consecutive days by a known creeper (but unknown to me) just a couple blocks from our door.  One of those times, I was with my 4-year-old daughter!  So, safety suddenly came a concern for me.

Just seems like everything would be easier away from Chicago.

shuffler

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2020, 05:03:09 PM »
When there are riots, they shut down the roads and lift the bridges, so it adds an hour to our trip back from the lake house.
That's quite the sentence.

Cranky

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2020, 05:59:23 PM »
When there are riots, they shut down the roads and lift the bridges, so it adds an hour to our trip back from the lake house.
That's quite the sentence.

It does sum up our times.

Edubb20

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2020, 07:21:15 PM »
Born and raised in states, but I hold dual citizenship.  We could likely get my wife in on a visa.

We will likely leave if the election is obviously and irreparably compromised.  I can live with a lot, I can stick through a lot, but I can't live somewhere that is overtly undemocratic or at least isn't pretending anymore.

Edubb20

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2020, 07:24:03 PM »
Born and raised in states, but I hold dual citizenship.  We could likely get my wife in on a visa.

We will likely leave if the election is obviously and irreparably compromised.  I can live with a lot, I can stick through a lot, but I can't live somewhere that is overtly undemocratic or at least isn't pretending anymore.

Wrapping this back into FIRE.  This would compromise our current FIRE goals, but the fire saving we have accumulated thus far in our journey would make a transition to a new place a whole lot less painful. Plus, we would have access to better social welfare programs.

charis

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2020, 09:13:25 PM »
When there are riots, they shut down the roads and lift the bridges, so it adds an hour to our trip back from the lake house.
That's quite the sentence.

It does sum up our times.

Yes, life is undoubtedly easier without riots clogging up the commute to the lake house and the good schools.

jpdx

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2020, 11:16:29 PM »
I love it here in Portland and hope to live here at least as long as I'm raising kids. Despite what the news tells you to believe, the quality of life remains superb.

rantk81

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2020, 07:05:49 AM »
Just seems like everything would be easier away from Chicago.

You can throw my name on the list of people who wants out of Chicago too.
A while back, I moved right to the downtown area for the ease of getting to work and being able to walk to all kinds of wonderful amenities.

Well, the high property taxes and sales taxes (plus high HOA) just aren't worth it anymore.  My job is now 100% fully remote.
State Street and Michigan Ave barely resemble what they were a year ago.  Several of the storefronts on State are boarded up or vacant now. Several others now have retractable chain-link-barriers they roll down behind their windows.  My go-to grocery store within walking distance, was closed for over a week due to it being destroyed during one of the looting episodes.

I've been harassed, accosted, and even assaulted by random people, on multiple occasions, for absolutely no reason what-so-ever.  This happened a few times before the recent unrest, but it has become worse lately.  I don't leave home much anymore due to COVID, but even when I must venture out, I absolutely 100% never stay out after dark anymore.

Yup. I'm ready to leave.  Why pay a premium to live with these undesirable surroundings? Totally not worth it.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2020, 07:10:46 AM »
I used to live in a decent-sized city so I could have access to good mass-transit, museums and theaters, local restaurants, that sort of thing. I ended up having to shoo drug addicts out of my driveway to go to work in the morning, having my car's windows smashed randomly, and getting things stolen from me. I couldn't move to the suburbs fast enough. Now I have very few issues other than the cost of maintaining my house. There are good reasons to avoid city living even before you factor in COVID-19.

jrhampt

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2020, 07:16:26 AM »
We downsized and moved from a medium-sized city to a small coastal town this summer.  Lower property tax burden and shorter commute for my husband was a big benefit for us and we should have lower costs overall, although we will miss the easy access to good cheap mexican, puerto rican, peruvian, and other more varied types of food.  We didn't move specifically to get away from the city or COVID, but COVID gave us the time and the real estate market to do it.  In a normal year, we would never have had the time or the desire to take on a project this big, but when you're not socializing or traveling on the weekends, you have loads of extra time.  And the real estate market was hot enough that we sold the house in one week and had several offers vs the last time we put it on the market a few years back, when we had no offers.

BikeFanatic

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2020, 08:36:38 AM »
I am leaving the big city as part of a plan to retire, Covid did accelerate my plan, since my DW and I were able to WFH, there was no need to remain in the pricey city. We downsized to a 2 bed vacation home and I hope it is just enough for us size wise. Here we do feel safer than the city but not because of riots or anything, and planned to move somewhere with less criem and less people in general. We lucked out because buying a home in vacation land was cheap 3 years ago and now the prices have increased dramatically. Also though in the big city prices have gone up and people are still looking to buy.  Per my real estate agents the prices are up on single family homes in the city and the inventory is very low. Like the previous poster said without this sort of activity we may not have been able to sell our less than perfect house in a not so great neighborhood.

ChickenStash

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2020, 09:02:40 AM »
I've been ready to leave the city life for a long time and COVID, civil unrest, and the general change in people's attitudes has only made it more apparent that I really just want to be away from people. When I was a kid, my folks had a few acres on a small lake out in the woods and we lived there for my high school and college years. It was just about the most peaceful place I've ever been.

With COVID, my employer has gone to permanent WFH so I've occasionally looked for some place like that to call home and get out of suburbia. All I need is decent internet access and I'm good to go. I probably won't seriously consider moving until post-FIRE, though.

Chrissy

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2020, 10:50:46 AM »
When there are riots, they shut down the roads and lift the bridges, so it adds an hour to our trip back from the lake house.
That's quite the sentence.

It does sum up our times.

Yes, life is undoubtedly easier without riots clogging up the commute to the lake house and the good schools.

I should've been more specific:  the riots are not the problem, it's the mayor's decision to close the roads and raise the bridges to contain the riots. 

And, there are plenty of good schools in Chicago, but the districts are gerrymandered, so we would need to move 2 blocks east or 2 blocks west to get a comparable public school to the one in the rural district.  We are currently in a parochial preschool in Chicago, and there's one nearby the lake house, too.

JSMustachian

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2020, 10:56:32 AM »
I'm waiting to see how the Space X internet turns out before we move our primary house to rural property our family owns. 600 ping with satellite internet is terrible to work on.

Chrissy

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2020, 11:11:02 AM »
@rantk81 <fistbump>

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2020, 11:38:22 AM »
I would love this thread to expand to include overseas destinations, ie keeping US citizenship but moving young family to the EU or New Zealand, or something like that.  I’ve always wanted to spend some time abroad with my wife and kids (though I doubt she’ll go for it...).  Anyone done that without working for your American company in an overseas office?  I add that qualifier because of the easy work visa and Cushing American paycheck.

Thanks!

PhrugalPhan

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2020, 12:04:32 PM »
As someone living east of the Shenandoah let me add on to this.

TAXES: Yeah, they do nickel & dime you, but as a homeowner I have grown to like this method.  Instead of putting all the taxes on the homeowner, everyone has to chip in (cars, inventory, ...).  It allows for mustachians to avoid some taxes (my 10 year old Hyundai Accent has very low taxes, thank you very much).  Sales taxes - who buys in stores? (yard sales tend to not have sales taxes).   No income taxes would be great, but can't get everything.

SERVICES:  In my area they seem adequate.  Maybe not the best, but not bad either.    Toll roads - Only in my area if you are driving into DC proper.  You must be in the Chesapeake or Richmond areas(?).  Since I work outside of DC I don't have this problem - plus working from home now, so it really is not a problem.

BUGS: OMG!  I don't go outside in the summer, they are amazingly bad here!

BIKING:  There are nice paths in this area, but its been a long time since I rode my bike, which is a shame.  The paths are really only good for touristy rides, not really for commuting.

VERDICT: Yes, I am leaving when my pension is online in 2023.  Its not due to the taxes, but the weather, bugs, and crazy traffic.  I sure won't miss it here.

 
YES. I hope to leave my city in the next year or two.

Why? I guess I could say that most of Virginia east of the Shenandoah sucks, and that would be true. But that’s not really sufficient. Suckfulness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. And mere escape from Virginia isn’t a plan for improvement. So a deeper look is in order.

TAXES. Virginia is the nickel and dime capitol of the East. If there is a way to tax you, Virginia has implemented it. State income tax? You bet! Sales taxes ? Got em! Property taxes? On everything including cars, houses, mobile homes, work tools, and inventory. Road taxes? Virginia has got you covered with red light cameras and a state wide speed trap. It’s all about the coin. HOW TO IMPROVE: move to a state that is not quite so aggressive on taxes.

SERVICES: or more the lack thereof. You’d think for what we pay on taxes we’d have great services. We don’t. The public schools suck and the traffic sucks due to a lack of roads. Any new freeway is a toll opportunity. HOW TO IMPROVE: go someplace with better services or much lower taxes as I don’t get the services anyways.

BUGS: Virginia has ever blood-sucking insect you can imagine. Ticks, fleas, chiggers, mosquitoes. If you want to itch, this is the place to do it. HOW TO IMPROVE: go someplace drier.

BIKING: this is a good place to die if you ride a bike. The drivers are awful and there aren’t nearly enough bike paths. HOW TO IMPROVE: pick a bike friendly city.

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2020, 12:19:04 PM »
I am planning on leaving a big city (Los Angeles) for a small-medium size city.  I was planning this before COVID (part of the grand FIRE plan), and the pandemic certainly has done nothing to dissuade me from that decision.  Reasons are myriad:

- Climate more suited to my family's needs (not a direct function of big city, obviously)
- Proximity to outdoor activities
- Lower cost
- Traffic
- Overcrowding/space
- Proximity to family (again, not the fault of this particular city)
- Desire to live in a more bike-friendly city

LWYRUP

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2020, 12:32:49 PM »
My specific response (very close-in suburb of very big city).

Not planning to move for now. 

PRO:  Job market, it's home (grew up near here, family near here, kids settled in school), lots of amenities relatively near here, lots of open-minded, well educated people.

CONS:  Taxes (very high), cost of living (very high), traffic, certain aspects of politics (I can deal with both moderate liberals and moderate conservatives, I don't like extremists -- either of the far right or illiberal progressive variety). 

I don't know if I will move later.  I am content with just running up the score a bit for now, and I also hope to take advantage of the strong job market later with additional job moves.  When I tire of that, I may want some change, but by then the kids may be well nestled into schools.  Then, the question is whether they want to live here when they grow up (for the job market).  If they do, family comes first so I'll probably stay.  If they don't, then I may call it quits. 

Incidentally, I'm a big believer that Americans often move too much and it would often be better for us to all to just grow deep roots where we are and work to improve what we don't like or just recognize that there are tradeoffs to everything.  But COL where I am is really punishingly high (@Buffaloski Boris, people from where I am would consider your state the promised land as far as taxes are concerned), so it's a big sacrifice in my case if the income isn't there to match it.   
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 12:38:52 PM by LWYRUP »

bloodaxe

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2020, 01:12:12 PM »
I love it here in Portland and hope to live here at least as long as I'm raising kids. Despite what the news tells you to believe, the quality of life remains superb.

When visiting Portland, I loved the suburbs outside of the city. Great public transit, weather, and bike paths.

But of all the inner cities I've been to in the US, I enjoyed Portland the least. I have never seen so many homeless/drug addicts/mentally unstable people.

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2020, 01:44:47 PM »
My specific response (very close-in suburb of very big city).

Not planning to move for now. 

PRO:  Job market, it's home (grew up near here, family near here, kids settled in school), lots of amenities relatively near here, lots of open-minded, well educated people.

CONS:  Taxes (very high), cost of living (very high), traffic, certain aspects of politics (I can deal with both moderate liberals and moderate conservatives, I don't like extremists -- either of the far right or illiberal progressive variety). 

I don't know if I will move later.  I am content with just running up the score a bit for now, and I also hope to take advantage of the strong job market later with additional job moves.  When I tire of that, I may want some change, but by then the kids may be well nestled into schools.  Then, the question is whether they want to live here when they grow up (for the job market).  If they do, family comes first so I'll probably stay.  If they don't, then I may call it quits. 

Incidentally, I'm a big believer that Americans often move too much and it would often be better for us to all to just grow deep roots where we are and work to improve what we don't like or just recognize that there are tradeoffs to everything.  But COL where I am is really punishingly high (@Buffaloski Boris, people from where I am would consider your state the promised land as far as taxes are concerned), so it's a big sacrifice in my case if the income isn't there to match it.

Interesting.  I'm of the opposite belief.  I recently read an article about how most Americans still live within XX (50?) miles of their mother.  I think that when we only know and see people more or less like us, it makes empathy much more challenging, and makes it more difficult to understand varying viewpoints.  If you come from a place where guns are nearly always a tool of violence, it's tough to see and remember that in some places, they are a resource (hunting) or for protecting livestock against predators, as one example.  When we only experience one thing, everything else becomes "other" and that helps entrench tribalism.  Travel can help with this to some extent, but only minimally so, and especially if you only stay in a hotel and take a taxi to the big ticket tourist sites. 

We we live different places, and especially different types of places--WRT politics, religion, racial diversity, socio-economic position, rural/urban/suburban, and traditional values--we gain insights into different people and different value systems.  That makes us better able to empathize, and also allows us to shop for the good and bad in each thing when considering what ideal we want to help our current place move toward. 

LWYRUP

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2020, 02:24:31 PM »
My specific response (very close-in suburb of very big city).

Not planning to move for now. 

PRO:  Job market, it's home (grew up near here, family near here, kids settled in school), lots of amenities relatively near here, lots of open-minded, well educated people.

CONS:  Taxes (very high), cost of living (very high), traffic, certain aspects of politics (I can deal with both moderate liberals and moderate conservatives, I don't like extremists -- either of the far right or illiberal progressive variety). 

I don't know if I will move later.  I am content with just running up the score a bit for now, and I also hope to take advantage of the strong job market later with additional job moves.  When I tire of that, I may want some change, but by then the kids may be well nestled into schools.  Then, the question is whether they want to live here when they grow up (for the job market).  If they do, family comes first so I'll probably stay.  If they don't, then I may call it quits. 

Incidentally, I'm a big believer that Americans often move too much and it would often be better for us to all to just grow deep roots where we are and work to improve what we don't like or just recognize that there are tradeoffs to everything.  But COL where I am is really punishingly high (@Buffaloski Boris, people from where I am would consider your state the promised land as far as taxes are concerned), so it's a big sacrifice in my case if the income isn't there to match it.

Interesting.  I'm of the opposite belief.  I recently read an article about how most Americans still live within XX (50?) miles of their mother.  I think that when we only know and see people more or less like us, it makes empathy much more challenging, and makes it more difficult to understand varying viewpoints.  If you come from a place where guns are nearly always a tool of violence, it's tough to see and remember that in some places, they are a resource (hunting) or for protecting livestock against predators, as one example.  When we only experience one thing, everything else becomes "other" and that helps entrench tribalism.  Travel can help with this to some extent, but only minimally so, and especially if you only stay in a hotel and take a taxi to the big ticket tourist sites. 

We we live different places, and especially different types of places--WRT politics, religion, racial diversity, socio-economic position, rural/urban/suburban, and traditional values--we gain insights into different people and different value systems.  That makes us better able to empathize, and also allows us to shop for the good and bad in each thing when considering what ideal we want to help our current place move toward.

I was thinking about it mostly of the "Bowling Alone" perspective of social isolation and its terrible consequences.  I think that sense of isolation increases in transient communities, though that is obviously not the only factor.  I propose rootedness as a solution so that folks can rebuild civic institutions and thicken social ties. 

I'm also looking at it from the perspective of people moving from one mega-city to another.  My suburb is very diverse with a large number of immigrants from all around the globe, so just by living your life here you will meet all types of people.  Most of the people who leave here will move to other cities, and so that will be true (though possibly to not quite as great an extent) wherever they move and so I am not sure all that much would change in terms of broadening perspectives. 

However, there is a culture clash between here and other parts of the USA and I do find that frustrating (as I alluded to), though that clash in my opinion is not really due to the diversity or immigration but to the values of a certain subset of the (self-styled) elite.  Perhaps if those folks had deeper connections with the rest of country, their views on certain matters would be less rigid and we could more effectively communicate across cultural divides (such as the urban-rural divide you are talking about).  It's rarely even people's actual views that bother me, it is the literal inability to understand why someone would think differently or to have respect for someone that does even while disagreeing.  So my preference would be a community with more ideological diversity, because I think when you need to interact on a day-to-day basis with people who take the opposite sides to issues than you, it can help people consider things differently or remain more open minded.  But maybe folks in "swing" jurisdictions can chime in to tell me if I am right or wrong.  Anyways, so I get where you are coming from, but from my perspective I haven't seen hopping from one "elite" city to another cause any increase in open-mindedness among the people I am talking about. 

I think the phenomenon of "going away for college" or a graduate degree or first job can be useful for the life experience.  Maybe we should have a mandatory Ameri-corps type program where people are purposefully assigned to places very different from where they grew up? 

After that period of exploration, though, it can be helpful to just pick somewhere and settle and build something, and for those of us fortunate to be from places with great job markets, "where you were born" does actually work pretty well and has some structural advantages.  Larger cities have another structural advantage in that way, because you can "find your people" if you want, so to speak, while still only being able to bubble so much given the broader diversity. 

I'm also personally a dork, so historically I've learned mostly from books, and so for me that's been the best tool for learning to appreciate different perspectives, not actual talking with people.  I could live in the middle of Manhattan or the depths of the sticks, as long as I have my Kindle I'll have access to the whole world.  But I recognize that's not a common perspective, or that people can feel isolated if they are in a place where everyone thinks differently than them. 

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Re: Skipping town? Who is planning on leaving and why?
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2020, 03:22:58 PM »
My specific response (very close-in suburb of very big city).

Not planning to move for now. 

PRO:  Job market, it's home (grew up near here, family near here, kids settled in school), lots of amenities relatively near here, lots of open-minded, well educated people.

CONS:  Taxes (very high), cost of living (very high), traffic, certain aspects of politics (I can deal with both moderate liberals and moderate conservatives, I don't like extremists -- either of the far right or illiberal progressive variety). 

I don't know if I will move later.  I am content with just running up the score a bit for now, and I also hope to take advantage of the strong job market later with additional job moves.  When I tire of that, I may want some change, but by then the kids may be well nestled into schools.  Then, the question is whether they want to live here when they grow up (for the job market).  If they do, family comes first so I'll probably stay.  If they don't, then I may call it quits. 

Incidentally, I'm a big believer that Americans often move too much and it would often be better for us to all to just grow deep roots where we are and work to improve what we don't like or just recognize that there are tradeoffs to everything.  But COL where I am is really punishingly high (@Buffaloski Boris, people from where I am would consider your state the promised land as far as taxes are concerned), so it's a big sacrifice in my case if the income isn't there to match it.

A couple of interesting points @LWYRUP .

With regards to setting down roots. I guess it’s nice to do so in an area where you have family or have a deep appreciation for the area but to take moving off the table would be counterproductive. One of the very few effective tools to deal with rotten political leadership or public mismanagement is to shake the dust from our sandals. No debate, no sham elections, no fuss. You just leave and do better elsewhere. Interestingly, people exiting areas like NY are very much on the radar screen of the political leadership. They realize that a mass exodus of tax serfs citizens is far more impactful to their future than what the people who stay behind and endure it are going to muster.

As for Virginia taxes, they look better from the outside than the inside. They aren’t NJ or NY bad, or even MD bad, but they’re bad enough and the trend is clearly getting worse. A cute little detail that screwed a lot of us a couple of years ago was that while the Federal standard deduction went up hugely, the standard deduction in Virginia didn’t go up at all, netting the state a very nice windfall. It’s changed to increase a bit, but it’s still a windfall. Further, the partial state exemption on car taxes is probably not long for this world. So that’ll be another tax hike. Frankly taxes aren’t the biggest deal to me; it’s the getting little to nothing in exchange for those taxes that’s irritating.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!