Sig. Other Who is Pessimistic? Incompatible With FIRE?

[DoubleDown]

My beloved wife is inherently pessimistic, thanks to her parents and own experience growing up. She's also highly organized, and doesn't like to leave things up to chance or "see how it goes." That's okay with me, it's not necessarily a bad trait in my book, and helps maybe to temper my being optimistic and willing to be flexible.

But it occurs to me that pessimism is probably highly incompatible with the whole concept of FIRE. MMM has taken on many of his naysayers' criticisms with his "optimism gun" concept. My wife would laugh in MMM's face over his optimism or safety margins ;-) although I give those ideas two big thumbs up. Although I obviously am a big proponent of most of MMM's ideas, I can imagine that to a pessimist the whole notion of FIRE would seem like a course for disaster.

In my case (if it matters), my wife has the usual objections: the money will run out; what will you do about exploding health care costs?; what will you do all day?; and so on. I've attempted to set her mind at ease on these things, but I imagine for a pessimist it's hard to reconcile these issues and just trust that things will turn out okay, that the math is sound, that it's best not to plan your entire life around worst-case, what-if scenarios.

Anyone else have a spouse who is just very pessimistic by nature? How do you reconcile that with the whole notion of FIRE (besides the obvious answers of love, communication, etc.)? Note that the one solution I have explicitly ruled out is to just keep working until I'm 65 and amass a stash of $100 million in order to completely alleviate her concerns :-)

I'm really not looking for advice on my own situation, I'm more interested in just sparking a discussion to see if others have encountered this.

[Random]

My wife is not pessimistic per SE, she is more cautious and needs convincing and a bigger buffer.  I am 55 and she is in her 40s, so I may have more incentive to shave the analysis closer to the margin.

[arebelspy]

Use it to your advantage!

Pessimism means you should save as much as possible in case bad things happen in the future (i.e. job loss, health issues, etc.).  You're already way ahead of those with SO spending problems.

She's also highly organized, and doesn't like to leave things up to chance or "see how it goes."

That's exactly why you want to become FI.  To not leave things to chance.

[Spork]

My mom was like this.  Extremely so.  She could find a raincloud on the sunniest of days.

The really bad downside was there was no investment vehicle that was "safe enough" for her beyond a passbook savings account or a CD. 

As to whether it is compatible or not with FIRE... she was a housewife and my dad is still working while in his 80s**.  I guess we'll never know if that had any impact.


**He's working by his own choice.  He could have retired years ago if he'd wanted to.

[Frankies Girl]

Um. This is kind of how I am. I have a very negative outlook overall. I also plan and over think things frequently.

I expect the worst, and it's actually a pleasant surprise when things work out well, so it's sort of nice that I'm prepared for bad stuff to happen, that usually doesn't.

I do tend to stress out and go OCD on stuff tho, but my husband is the exact opposite - stuff going wrong just doesn't occur to him most of the time - so we balance each other out.

The negative outlook doesn't seem to have an effect on my risk level and overall FIRE however. I am too busy concentrating on little details to really do a big picture and I think that's one reason, so I guess I don't need to dwell too long on that.

[arebelspy]

The really bad downside was there was no investment vehicle that was "safe enough" for her beyond a passbook savings account or a CD. 

The problem with this is that it's really a lack of knowledge.

A CD is much less safe than stocks, due to inflation.

One has to have examples and wrap their head around what risk actually means.  Your investments dropping in value by half overnight is one risk.  Your purchasing power slowly being eroded is another.  The investment values come back.  The purchasing power doesn't.  The latter risk is much more likely to leave you with nothing than the former.

Once one has the knowledge, they find that often it is the less volatile investments with the lowest return that are the most risky.  If you can teach someone risk-averse that, they may be more open to investing in more "risky" (but not actually so, in the long run) assets.

[DoubleDown]

That's exactly why you want to become FI.  To not leave things to chance.

Agreed. Except for my wife, and as Spork notes with his mom, a pessimist's definition of "enough" could be "never." You can never save enough to handle every single black swan event they could throw at you, or the .000000001 chance every single black swan event happens. At some point you are tempted (or at least I am) to hand-wave away their objections as silly and not worth further consideration or planning. Also, with regard to being highly organized, it means that for my spouse, if my ever waking second in FIRE is not already accounted for, to her it's tantamount to a guarantee that you will slip into watching TV all day or getting involved in all kinds of dangerous pursuits like day trading, gambling, smoking crack, getting busy with the neighborhood women, or any other nefarious activity they could imagine. Man, pessimism just sounds very taxing and draining!

[DoubleDown]

I expect the worst, and it's actually a pleasant surprise when things work out well, so it's sort of nice that I'm prepared for bad stuff to happen, that usually doesn't.

This describes my wife to a tee! It sounds so exhausting to me, but maybe it's what gives you both comfort???

The other thing is, even when things go right for my wife or for us both 99.999% of the time, she's still waiting for the next thing to go wrong. And when that one thing eventually happens, no matter how minor, that will be proof for her to say "See!! Things go wrong!"

[arebelspy]

Sure, you'll just have to discuss what level of security is "enough."

And put it in a way that she'll understand.  Not "FIRECalc says we have a 100% success rate" or "Our WR is only 3.2%!" but something like: "If we started with this much much (adjusted back for inflation) at any point in the U.S. for the last 150 years, we would have never run out of money.  We'd have survived WWI and II. We'd survive the Great Depression.  We'd survive the high inflation of the 70s/80s.  You could put us in any time period, and we'd have been able to sustain our spending."

That's a pretty powerful statement.

But first discuss with her what level of security is enough.  (Or the level you start with won't be seen as enough, due to the anchoring effect.)

[Spork]

The really bad downside was there was no investment vehicle that was "safe enough" for her beyond a passbook savings account or a CD. 

The problem with this is that it's really a lack of knowledge.

A CD is much less safe than stocks, due to inflation.

One has to have examples and wrap their head around what risk actually means.  Your investments dropping in value by half overnight is one risk.  Your purchasing power slowly being eroded is another.  The investment values come back.  The purchasing power doesn't.  The latter risk is much more likely to leave you with nothing than the former.

I cannot and will not argue with that at all.  No sir.  Not one bit.

(This is all past tense now... she has Alzheimer's now and is seriously disabled.)

I tried to tell her this.  My dad tried to tell her this.  It was a no-go.  Her mother was the same way.  In her defense, she was a child of the depression and never really overcame the fear of "the big crash."  (No arguing "but what is that stock worth now?")

My dad was also so absolutely totally batshit opposite.  So it is possible she and he just balanced each other out.  Dad could be drowning in a sea, rained on by plagues and circled by sharks and still have a positive outlook.  He was also a seriously stupid investor.  He trusted everyone and would invest in seriously stupid and risky endeavors.  This may have also had an effect on her paranoia with "safe money."

[DoubleDown]

Sure, you'll just have to discuss what level of security is "enough."

And put it in a way that she'll understand.  Not "FIRECalc says we have a 100% success rate" or "Our WR is only 3.2%!" but something like: "If we started with this much much (adjusted back for inflation) at any point in the U.S. for the last 150 years, we would have never run out of money.  We'd have survived WWI and II. We'd survive the Great Depression.  We'd survive the high inflation of the 70s/80s.  You could put us in any time period, and we'd have been able to sustain our spending."

That's a pretty powerful statement.

But first discuss with her what level of security is enough.  (Or the level you start with won't be seen as enough, due to the anchoring effect.)

Ha, I have definitely tried every way I know how, including all the ways you listed above. I've asked the "how much is enough" question many times (not in a snarky way, but in a serious way). The answer is always "I don't know." When I've followed up and asked, "Would $100 million be enough?" she says "Sure." "How about $10 million?" gets a "Maybe."

I think I actually hit the winning combination a week ago. I made her sit down with me to go over a very painfully detailed spending plan from now until we're 120 (which I will say was a useful exercise for me too, so another up vote from me on the benefit of having a partner with a different outlook). Anyway, within 10 seconds of starting, the objections and questions immediately came, but I asked her to hold all questions and comments until we went through it (having done this many times before and knowing how quickly it ends up off track). At least 20 times going through it I had to restate that we're holding all objections and questions until the end. But finally I got through it, and I believe she actually got it, and even feels comfortable with it now.

But man, I'd say a pessimistic outlook is definitely antithetical to FIRE, at least on the surface.

[footenote]

DoubleDown - What do you think your SO gets out of being negative?

Figure that out and you may be able to discover how to temper it.

[DoubleDown]

DoubleDown - What do you think your SO gets out of being negative?

Figure that out and you may be able to discover how to temper it.

Great question -- I think she gets very little out of it, and when I've asked her, she's said she doesn't particularly enjoy being that way, but is not able to change it. She feels it's wired into her, and she's probably right. Also, I think many pessimists will say they are being "realists" even though there's very little reality in their overstated negative outlooks. So far I've had some limited success with her in going over her projections of gloom or doom (in general, not just financial or FIRE related), and how they did not come to pass. Maybe it's helped her recalibrate a little and realize that her negative expectations are usually unfounded.

@Frankies Girl -- It just occurred to me that my wife's mom has hoarding tendencies. There might be a connection with that type of behavior and raising children who are extremely pessimistic or insecure about what the future will bring. My wife definitely is not crazy. She's smart as a whip, and sadly I'd say her mom and dad gave her ample reason to be pessimistic. She wasn't raised to expect good things, so why else would she turn out any differently?

[arebelspy]

Great question -- I think she gets very little out of it, and when I've asked her, she's said she doesn't particularly enjoy being that way, but is not able to change it.

Has she tried?  (Genuinely, not superficially.)

She feels it's wired into her, and she's probably right.

I disagree.

Learned Optimism.

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking

More options.

[DoubleDown]

Has she tried?  (Genuinely, not superficially.)

She feels it's wired into her, and she's probably right.

I disagree.

Yeah, she's genuinely tried. I don't know how hard she's really worked at it though or if the books she's read resonated with her. I think it's a hard thing to give up on. She feels anchored in being a pessimist, it's what she's known her whole life. I didn't mean to suggest that by being wired into someone it can't be changed -- just that it's her current programming/wiring, and rewiring/reprogramming is probably pretty hard, even if it's something you want.

Thanks for your excellent suggestions and links! I've tried to be very sensitive about not trying to "fix" her or suggesting things unless she asks. The whole "take the plank out of your own eye before removing the speck from your brother's eye" thing. But I'll keep all of those links in mind if she ever expresses again an interest in ditching the pessimism.

[footenote]

My parents were both consumed by worry, negativity and anxiety their entire lives.

It took me significant effort to stop the worrying and catastrophizing habits they taught me. (More on catastrophizing here: http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-catastrophizing/0001276)

These ingrained, unbidden, negative thoughts require serious work to re-route. (And I still sometimes fall back into it without realizing it.)

You are sensitive and smart to not to try to "fix" her. She will need to become motivated enough to work on it. But from my experience, it can be done. Sign me - no longer a chronic nail biter (literally)

[Zamboni]

My mom was like this.  Extremely so.  She could find a raincloud on the sunniest of days.

The really bad downside was there was no investment vehicle that was "safe enough" for her beyond a passbook savings account or a CD. 

My Mom is like this too, with the added bonus that she doesn't even trust banks.  So she has little bits of cash squirreled all over the house, which is getting pretty hoarded but at least she keeps the kitchen clean and doesn't hoard garbage.  Yes, I've explained that she could lose most of her life savings in a single house fire.  She does have some money in the bank again after having taken ALL of it out at one point, but has it spread out over several banks "in case one of them fails."  She doesn't trust the govt either, so FDIC seems to offer no comfort to her.  My brother asked her to at least make a list of where she has the accounts.  I have asked her to consolidate the cash a little better so we don't have to dig around in her plants and books looking for the money if she ever ends up in the hospital and needs our help with paying her bills.  We've both tried explaining the "losing money to inflation" concept.  She is unmoved.  She did give each of us a big chuck of cash recently, and she was a wonderful mother growing up in many, many ways.  But she's pessimistic to the extreme and nutty when it comes to money.

So, wow, yeah, that probably doesn't help you very much with your pessimistic SO.  But I am sympathetic about you having to deal with this, and I don't think it will be easy to change her.  You might be able to get her to accept what you are doing on some level because, to be frank, she doesn't have the power to stop you, but she'll always be a little freaked out about the possibility of financial ruin I think.

[2527]

Start with the FI part of FIRE.  As NW increases, she will probably relax.  Also, I think the main concepts are the savings rate, and with investments, long term expected return minus inflation.

Also, there may be an underlying medical condition.  I found I had a B and D vitamin deficiency, and my Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratios in my blood were wrong.  I fixed those things and my mood and personality improved considerably.  Not trying to be absurd or offensive, just talking from my own experience.

[Frankies Girl]

@Frankies Girl -- It just occurred to me that my wife's mom has hoarding tendencies. There might be a connection with that type of behavior and raising children who are extremely pessimistic or insecure about what the future will bring. My wife definitely is not crazy. She's smart as a whip, and sadly I'd say her mom and dad gave her ample reason to be pessimistic. She wasn't raised to expect good things, so why else would she turn out any differently?

I'm not sure if you're familiar with my backstory, but my dad was a fullblown hoarder, and my mother was a packrat and probably could be considered a horder now too. I grew up with both parents pretty messed up when it came to money (feeling like we were poor despite the fact that we were solid middle class), and definitely feel like some of my negativity is due to that.

[impaire]

Learned Optimism.

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking

More options.

Awesome list, thanks. Given the second one including "for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking" in the title, I may even dare gifting it to my MIL-- the phrase may talk to her more than something openly positive!

[lentilman]

My mom was like this.  Extremely so.  She could find a raincloud on the sunniest of days.

The really bad downside was there was no investment vehicle that was "safe enough" for her beyond a passbook savings account or a CD. 

My Mom is like this too, with the added bonus that she doesn't even trust banks.  So she has little bits of cash squirreled all over the house, which is getting pretty hoarded but at least she keeps the kitchen clean and doesn't hoard garbage.  Yes, I've explained that she could lose most of her life savings in a single house fire.

Semi-serious suggestion:  Convince your Mom to keep the house cash in nickels or older pennies.  This has advantages in surviving a disaster, never falling below face value, and being an inflation hedge (the base metal has been fluctuating around face value for awhile and at some time in the future will be worth much more).

[backyardfeast]

I can get caught up in some pretty doom-y thoughts about the future, and I do wonder sometimes if my fears that the economy will tank again soon, the stock market won't be reliable in the future, that my spouse will become unemployed, etc etc are incompatible with striving for FI.  But so far my most powerful response to myself has been, "what's the alternative?"

Perhaps that might lead to a productive conversation?  (I'm talking here about the 'striving' part, if FI is still years away; I'm assuming that the actual, "I'm FI now and ready to retire" question will take care of itself down the road, once the actual proof of income is there) 

In other words, you've got expenses now, and the opportunity to save $.  Saving leads to all kinds of security and buffers.  What's the alternative?  Broke and homeless because you never saved anything? If you're making investment decisions, risk tolerance, asset allocation, deciding on what you can afford to lose and how to plan for that, etc. can all be part of the conversation too.  But those more detailed decisions could happen once the "let's save as much as we can to give ourselves options and security" idea has been sold?

There's also the "acting as if" philosophy.  The, "you may be right, we certainly can never be 100% sure of anything in life.  But if we waited for 100% certainty, we would never get in the car and drive to work!  So let's 'act as if' the business cycle will continue, etc, and trust ourselves to deal with another eventuality if it comes to pass..."

[CupcakeStache]

Learned Optimism.

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking

More options.

Awesome list, thanks. Given the second one including "for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking" in the title, I may even dare gifting it to my MIL-- the phrase may talk to her more than something openly positive!

That doesn't seem like a great idea. It sounds kind of like the idea of gifting a dieting book to someone who is overweight - generally not appreciated.

[savingtofreedom]

I am very pessimistic.  Because of this, some of MMM writings don't really appeal to me.  But math works.  Show her the math.  At some point you will likely need to stop working.  That could be on the typical retirement schedule or an earlier schedule that is more common on these boards.  Either way the math has to work.

Maybe your FI adventure will tack on a couple more years but there is nothing wrong in being "extra safe."  My pessimism extends to my working life too.  And work makes me miserable - even though I have a pretty sweet gig.  Find what your wife loves and show her how FI will make it better.  But show her the math too.  Put together a budget if you don't have one - and cut back on the extraneous.  Dump that extra money into whatever investment mix or real estate you both feel good about and figure out when you can retire.  Buy long-term care insurance.  Eat  healthy and work out.  With anything in life I think she gets that there is so much you can control.  If she is organized use that to your FI advantage.

Sometimes having a pessimist balance an optimist is not a bad thing.  Being too optimistic can have its own issues - I think this may be a partial driver of why so many Americans are in so much debt today. 

[Zamboni]

Convince your Mom to keep the house cash in nickels or older pennies.  This has advantages in surviving a disaster, never falling below face value, and being an inflation hedge (the base metal has been fluctuating around face value for awhile and at some time in the future will be worth much more).

That is functionally what her dad did.  His wealth was almost entirely in a coin "collection", which he kept in a massive safe in his basement and under false steps in the house that he built himself.  Actually, now that you mention it and the more I think about grandpa, the more her behavior seems like learned behavior from the way she was raised and not just totally random craziness.  I am going to suggest the wisdom of "metallic money" to her next time she's showing me some bills she's stuffed down in a fake plant!

[arebelspy]

Learned Optimism.

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking

More options.

Awesome list, thanks. Given the second one including "for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking" in the title, I may even dare gifting it to my MIL-- the phrase may talk to her more than something openly positive!

That doesn't seem like a great idea. It sounds kind of like the idea of gifting a dieting book to someone who is overweight - generally not appreciated.

Yeah, that might not be taken the right way.  But if you can figure out a "nice" way to introduce the idea, go for it!

[impaire]

Learned Optimism.

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking

More options.

Awesome list, thanks. Given the second one including "for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking" in the title, I may even dare gifting it to my MIL-- the phrase may talk to her more than something openly positive!

That doesn't seem like a great idea. It sounds kind of like the idea of gifting a dieting book to someone who is overweight - generally not appreciated.

Agreed. On further reflection (before seeing your note), I was saying to my husband I may buy it for myself, and read it over the next vacation we spend together. Then she'll know it exists and can pick it up if she wants.

I do suspect my motives here (that's dangerously close to passive-aggressive), but on the other hand I feel bad that no one is trying to reach out to her in her bottomless pit of misery anymore. Anyway, I'm just musing, no decisions made. Appreciate the input.

[Spork]

My mom was like this.  Extremely so.  She could find a raincloud on the sunniest of days.

The really bad downside was there was no investment vehicle that was "safe enough" for her beyond a passbook savings account or a CD. 

My Mom is like this too, with the added bonus that she doesn't even trust banks.  So she has little bits of cash squirreled all over the house, which is getting pretty hoarded but at least she keeps the kitchen clean and doesn't hoard garbage.  Yes, I've explained that she could lose most of her life savings in a single house fire. 
<snip>

Mom did that towards the end (before we had to get her full time care).  There was money EVERYWHERE.  In fact, I am still betting there is money scattered under things, in things, etc.  She went into hoarding towards the end of that too, and I am betting that some of the "stuff" she had piled up had money in it as well.  Funny thing: she was paranoid that someone would steal her money ... but she had so much of it in so many places, people COULD steal it and she'd never ever know.  (Or she'd lose it herself and think someone DID steal it.)

[DoubleDown]

My parents were both consumed by worry, negativity and anxiety their entire lives.

It took me significant effort to stop the worrying and catastrophizing habits they taught me. (More on catastrophizing here: http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-catastrophizing/0001276)

That is awesome footenote, good for you doing the work and overcoming it! I don't think my wife feels it is so detrimental to her that she wants to do a lot of work to make radical changes (at least not yet). And to be fair, she's not a wreck or anything, just pessimistic, so she probably doesn't have that strong motivation as you noted.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with my backstory, but my dad was a fullblown hoarder, and my mother was a packrat and probably could be considered a horder now too. I grew up with both parents pretty messed up when it came to money (feeling like we were poor despite the fact that we were solid middle class), and definitely feel like some of my negativity is due to that.

Yes Frankies Girl, I definitely did remember your story which led me to wonder if that's the common connection/cause. It might not be the hoarding, per se, but maybe at least the associated personality traits that cause the insecurity in the kids?

Perhaps that might lead to a productive conversation?  (I'm talking here about the 'striving' part, if FI is still years away; I'm assuming that the actual, "I'm FI now and ready to retire" question will take care of itself down the road, once the actual proof of income is there) 

Thanks for the good suggestions backyardfeast. In my case, I am FI, and have worked about one extra year to build up an extra safety margin. I'm retiring from my job in about 8 weeks, not that anyone is counting ;-) So, it's staring us right in the face, which is what worries my wife (very unnecessarily in my view).

[You might be able to get her to accept what you are doing on some level because, to be frank, she doesn't have the power to stop you, but she'll always be a little freaked out about the possibility of financial ruin I think.

That's pretty much what I've concluded too. The only way to completely satisfy her anxiety about it would be to continue working for many, many more years, and that's not an option I'm entertaining! This also explains why she is continuing to work even though I have saved up more than enough to cover us both. I think that as time passes and she sees that things are working out, her concerns will be lessened or maybe even erased.

[Marmot]

Also, there may be an underlying medical condition.  I found I had a B and D vitamin deficiency, and my Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratios in my blood were wrong.  I fixed those things and my mood and personality improved considerably.  Not trying to be absurd or offensive, just talking from my own experience.

I thought that your suggestion was an excellent and brave one, obviously coming from a good place. Unfortunately mental illness has a massive stigma in the US (and I would assume many other places). I would suggest for people to approach this with a more open mind.

People throw around the term "crazy" as if it is the scarlet letter. Mental illness is not a black and white issue. Going to a specialist for talk therapy and/or evaluation for potential medication or a change in nutrition is a perfectly viable path. If an issue is crippling and majorly impacts yours or a loved one's quality of life and all other methods previously tried have not been successful, perhaps seeing a specialist should be considered.

I recognize and fully agree that over utilization of medication in the US is a major problem, with certain providers passing out pills like candy; the existence of this problem should not be used as a rationale for always ruling out that path though. I am also of the belief that certain providers like to string patients along solely to enrich themselves, though this should not be used as a rationale to believe that all mental health providers (or even a majority) are of this nature.

[backyardfeast]

In my case, I am FI, and have worked about one extra year to build up an extra safety margin. I'm retiring from my job in about 8 weeks, not that anyone is counting ;-)

WoW! Congratulations!!  In that case, I'd suggest that sometimes the proof is in the living, and that you should just give your wife a big hug, tell her you know she is worried and that you appreciate how much she cares about the safety and security of your family.  And that she can trust that you care too, that the numbers add up, and that if for some reason things don't work out, you can always make a different choice later.  And then you quit, all is well, and life goes on.  Love!

Of course, this is probably exactly what you've already done. :)

[Insanity]

My DW is partially anti investing.  When we moved into our house, I took most of the "earnings" from my townhouse and left it in an ING account earning 1% (and then significantly less) because I couldn't convince her to let me invest it in mutual funds and market indexes.  For four years it sat there.  She is finally okay with doing it, but we really don't have the ability now.  Which is probably why she is ok with it!

It took showing her what we made over those four years, versus showing her what we could have made if we were in a simple market index fund...  At least now I have approval to put it in an index fund when we are back on track for it.

[ChoicesChoices]

I am a pessimist.  If I can't feel like I've covered all the possible variables, I'm not comfortable.  If I'm not comfortable, I will not move forward with a particular decision, usually.  I had quite an aha moment upon reading these 2 articles one after the other.  The first is just the setup, the second is the real message, in my opinion:

http://assetbuilder.com/scott_burns/surprise!_retirement_may_be_do_able
http://assetbuilder.com/scott_burns/the_upside_of_certainty

I got to this fellow's blog this way:  MMM >> JLCollinsNH >> CanIRetireYet >> AssetBuilder.  Love it when bloggers link to other good blogs!

I believe the numbers show me I will be FI in 24 months, but I'm probably going to have to read those articles every day as I get closer to that time in order to actually pull the trigger. 

Happy reading.  Maybe your wife will like them.

[DoubleDown]

Yes, my pessimism drives my mustachianism! I figure that in an absolute worst case scenario, we'll have a giant pile of money we need dealing with. I would table any questions about what you'll do when you're retired, or how much you need, until you have a large enough stache that these are more pressing concerns.

It's pressing -- I pulled the trigger a couple of days ago at work to start my retirement in 6 weeks, so bring forth the discussion table ;-)