Author Topic: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?  (Read 34018 times)

ysette9

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2015, 12:30:22 PM »
On a personal level, the more my income has gone up over the years the less and less comfortable I have become with discussing it at all. Mostly it is because I know we are much more fortunate than others in our family and it feels like it would be unnecessarily bragging with no benefit. Some people earn much less because they didn't pursue education to qualify them for a professional degree and also did not choose to learn a trade. Other people went to school, got the degree, and work in industries which don't pay as lucratively. In the second scenario I have a lot of sympathy because I feel like the situation is to some extent the result of the great wealth divide that is growing in this country. My household got lucky enough to be on the right side of that yawning divide between the struggling middle class and the more fortunate.

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2015, 12:39:13 PM »
Depends a lot on the relationship you have with them and how interested they are to know it. I don't mind being open about how much I make at my job, but I don't go around telling my family, "I make $44k" unless they ask. My parents usually want all the details about my job, and I don't mind giving them. My grandparents usually don't care about the details; they just want me to be happy. The rest of my family usually has other things on their mind, usually how much their own job sucks or something, so no go there. As for my friends, a few I share the details with if they ask or if we are engaging in mutually assisted financial planning, but it isn't something I talk about over a game of Mario Party.

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2015, 12:46:24 PM »
So, I just got a new job offer, with a salary higher than I was expecting to be offered.  It's nothing crazy, but it's high enough that I'll be the top earner out of my family/friends; even parents who have worked 20 years longer than I, an older brother with an MBA, etc.
This job will require a move, and given past history, they are going to be asking "what will you make?" "are you making enough to make the move worthwhile", etc....
Should I tell them?  They are going to want a number.  If I shouldn't, what would you say?

I'm inclined to tell the truth. It's the way it is and since money doesn't prove anything (I'm sure there're people less capable than you making more money than you and also more capable people doing less money than you), I see no reason in lying or sugaring the truth.

What's the worst that can happen? :)

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2015, 01:17:19 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2015, 01:41:08 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

How is it illegal? The market is determining men's and women's wages, and apparently it is valuing women at 77 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If I were to start a company I could just adjust the salary I am willing to offer down from 100% to 77% across the board.  Naturally the positions will be filled by mostly women, as a woman is valued as 23%* less valuable as a man for equal qualifications and equal work (ie men won't take the position, but a woman would).  If the positions are not primarily filled by women then I think the premise of the argument is flawed.  It's not so much that the business owner would specifically say "I am hiring only women", he would simply adjust the pay rates down 23%, and the problem would sort itself out with the end result being a work force that is comprised of more women.  The very fact that women do not make up a large majority of the workforce makes me question the entire argument. 

*This is not my opinion, this is the figure supported by the data you guys have posted (which I don't think is correct anyway - I already posted a link earlier in this thread that contains several sources that debunks the 23% value and places it more around 5-7%, which is much more believable imo).

Villanelle

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2015, 01:41:58 PM »
I can't imagine people asking me how much I make!  No one I know would do that  They might as if a new job came with a good raise, but for that I'd just assure them I'm very pleased with the new salary. 

If anyone was rude enough to directly as for a number, I'd dodge. "I don't like to talk specific numbers but it's certainly enough! I'm going to be fine".  If they were even more rude and pressed again, "Wow!  You really don't want to let this go.  It's more than I made before, and less than Bill Gates' net worth, and that's all I'm going to say," in a somewhat jovial tone. 

jms493

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2015, 01:52:53 PM »
Honestly I never really cared...if you are going to judge me or treat me different based on my numbers then we have other problems.

Whether I make 50k, 70k, or 150k...it really shouldnt make any difference.  If a friend or family member asks that I trust I have no problem telling them.  its just a number.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 09:26:23 AM by jms493 »

CommonCents

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2015, 02:31:32 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

How is it illegal? The market is determining men's and women's wages, and apparently it is valuing women at 77 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If I were to start a company I could just adjust the salary I am willing to offer down from 100% to 77% across the board.  Naturally the positions will be filled by mostly women, as a woman is valued as 23%* less valuable as a man for equal qualifications and equal work (ie men won't take the position, but a woman would).  If the positions are not primarily filled by women then I think the premise of the argument is flawed.  It's not so much that the business owner would specifically say "I am hiring only women", he would simply adjust the pay rates down 23%, and the problem would sort itself out with the end result being a work force that is comprised of more women.  The very fact that women do not make up a large majority of the workforce makes me question the entire argument. 

*This is not my opinion, this is the figure supported by the data you guys have posted (which I don't think is correct anyway - I already posted a link earlier in this thread that contains several sources that debunks the 23% value and places it more around 5-7%, which is much more believable imo).

Once the factors (time out for caretaking - of kids and parents, different jobs, etc) are accounted for, as you note the difference drops to 6-7%.  The fact that it still exists is ridiculous because there's no explanation for it beyond gender discrimination/bias, but at the 6-7% figure, it's much easier for people not to notice their internal biases - and thus not go around hiring all women for a company for a competitive advantage (not to mention that's illegal).

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2015, 02:37:10 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

How is it illegal? The market is determining men's and women's wages, and apparently it is valuing women at 77 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If I were to start a company I could just adjust the salary I am willing to offer down from 100% to 77% across the board.  Naturally the positions will be filled by mostly women, as a woman is valued as 23%* less valuable as a man for equal qualifications and equal work (ie men won't take the position, but a woman would).  If the positions are not primarily filled by women then I think the premise of the argument is flawed.  It's not so much that the business owner would specifically say "I am hiring only women", he would simply adjust the pay rates down 23%, and the problem would sort itself out with the end result being a work force that is comprised of more women.  The very fact that women do not make up a large majority of the workforce makes me question the entire argument. 

*This is not my opinion, this is the figure supported by the data you guys have posted (which I don't think is correct anyway - I already posted a link earlier in this thread that contains several sources that debunks the 23% value and places it more around 5-7%, which is much more believable imo).

So first off, my assumption was that the employer was knowingly extending offers to 50% men and 50% women - to avoid the appearance of discrimination - but offering less pay to the women. *That* is what I'm saying would be illegal.

Would your scenario be illegal? Well, I don't know, but I guess I'm not that interested in the answer since it's really just a proposed experiment to prove there's no pay gap and not an actual real-world possibility.

sunshine

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2015, 02:39:35 PM »
So, I just got a new job offer, with a salary higher than I was expecting to be offered.  It's nothing crazy, but it's high enough that I'll be the top earner out of my family/friends; even parents who have worked 20 years longer than I, an older brother with an MBA, etc.
This job will require a move, and given past history, they are going to be asking "what will you make?" "are you making enough to make the move worthwhile", etc....
Should I tell them?  They are going to want a number.  If I shouldn't, what would you say?

My reply is now always " I don't feel comfortable discussing that." to anyone's reply about this topic.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2015, 02:39:47 PM »
Once the factors (time out for caretaking - of kids and parents, different jobs, etc) are accounted for, as you note the difference drops to 6-7%.  The fact that it still exists is ridiculous because there's no explanation for it beyond gender discrimination/bias, but at the 6-7% figure, it's much easier for people not to notice their internal biases - and thus not go around hiring all women for a company for a competitive advantage (not to mention that's illegal).

I've heard it explained that men are more willing to negotiate on salary and request more than women.  The approximate gain in salary by negotiating for more money is about 7% in favor of men.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2015, 02:49:21 PM »
So first off, my assumption was that the employer was knowingly extending offers to 50% men and 50% women - to avoid the appearance of discrimination - but offering less pay to the women. *That* is what I'm saying would be illegal.

Would your scenario be illegal? Well, I don't know, but I guess I'm not that interested in the answer since it's really just a proposed experiment to prove there's no pay gap and not an actual real-world possibility.

No, just offer the "woman's salary", and naturally you will hire more women (at the 23% discount from the market value of a man).  Basically what i'm saying is that if women provide equal value to a company, but at a 23% discount, then nearly every business across the board is paying 30% more for labor than the market can bear.  This makes no sense to me.  Why are they all doing this?! Just lower your wages by 23%, hire just as competent staff, and make money money.


Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2015, 03:10:40 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

How is it illegal? The market is determining men's and women's wages, and apparently it is valuing women at 77 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If I were to start a company I could just adjust the salary I am willing to offer down from 100% to 77% across the board.  Naturally the positions will be filled by mostly women, as a woman is valued as 23%* less valuable as a man for equal qualifications and equal work (ie men won't take the position, but a woman would).  If the positions are not primarily filled by women then I think the premise of the argument is flawed.  It's not so much that the business owner would specifically say "I am hiring only women", he would simply adjust the pay rates down 23%, and the problem would sort itself out with the end result being a work force that is comprised of more women.  The very fact that women do not make up a large majority of the workforce makes me question the entire argument. 

*This is not my opinion, this is the figure supported by the data you guys have posted (which I don't think is correct anyway - I already posted a link earlier in this thread that contains several sources that debunks the 23% value and places it more around 5-7%, which is much more believable imo).
You seem to misunderstand the 23% stat.  The 5-10% (there have been studies that find depending on the profession a 10% starting difference) accounts for direct job to job comparison.  The 23% includes that if you have two equal candidates, one female and one male, given that women need to be better than a man to be judged equal, the man will get the promotion.  And yes, there are studies to back that that up.  Two identical resumes, with only a name change will have female one judged less competent (and a lower salary range) than the male one.  I disagree that the 23% has been debunked, as do most researchers in the field that I have spoken to personally.

Chris22

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2015, 03:12:49 PM »
You seem to misunderstand the 23% stat.  The 5-10% (there have been studies that find depending on the profession a 10% starting difference) accounts for direct job to job comparison.  The 23% includes that if you have two equal candidates, one female and one male, given that women need to be better than a man to be judged equal, the man will get the promotion.  And yes, there are studies to back that that up.  Two identical resumes, with only a name change will have female one judged less competent (and a lower salary range) than the male one.  I disagree that the 23% has been debunked, as do most researchers in the field that I have spoken to personally.

Potentially, but I have direct experience in two separate instances with two separate companies in completely different industries where I was directed that a position WILL be filled with a "diverse" (female or minority) hire, and if I didn't have one in my current pool to keep interviewing until I did.  Cuts both ways.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2015, 03:37:45 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

How is it illegal? The market is determining men's and women's wages, and apparently it is valuing women at 77 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If I were to start a company I could just adjust the salary I am willing to offer down from 100% to 77% across the board.  Naturally the positions will be filled by mostly women, as a woman is valued as 23%* less valuable as a man for equal qualifications and equal work (ie men won't take the position, but a woman would).  If the positions are not primarily filled by women then I think the premise of the argument is flawed.  It's not so much that the business owner would specifically say "I am hiring only women", he would simply adjust the pay rates down 23%, and the problem would sort itself out with the end result being a work force that is comprised of more women.  The very fact that women do not make up a large majority of the workforce makes me question the entire argument. 

*This is not my opinion, this is the figure supported by the data you guys have posted (which I don't think is correct anyway - I already posted a link earlier in this thread that contains several sources that debunks the 23% value and places it more around 5-7%, which is much more believable imo).
You seem to misunderstand the 23% stat.  The 5-10% (there have been studies that find depending on the profession a 10% starting difference) accounts for direct job to job comparison.  The 23% includes that if you have two equal candidates, one female and one male, given that women need to be better than a man to be judged equal, the man will get the promotion.  And yes, there are studies to back that that up.  Two identical resumes, with only a name change will have female one judged less competent (and a lower salary range) than the male one.  I disagree that the 23% has been debunked, as do most researchers in the field that I have spoken to personally.

I don't think I misunderstand it, I just don't understand how it's not reflected in the workforce population.  Taken to the logical extreme if there was a 100% pay gap, women got paid 0 cents on the dollar for a man.  The workforce would be entirely women, no men at all.  No one would be willing to pay anything above $0 when there are people willing to work for $0.  As the pay gap shrinks I would expect the male/female ratio to approach 1.  With such a huge pay gap there should be a disproportionate amount of women in the workforce, and there isn't.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the 23% value.

LiveLean

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2015, 03:44:01 PM »
I pride myself on not having a salary. I've been self-employed since the age of 29 and aggressively tweak my year-end invoices to take income the following year if it makes sense from a tax standpoint. Plus income from businesses and real estate less taxable than employee or even self-employed 1099 income -- and I have that, too. If I told people my adjusted gross, they'd think I was poor. But when I look at wage slave friends making six-figures in high-tax places like NYC or California who think tax savings comes from having a huge mortgage on their one and only property, I just smile.

Shane

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2015, 12:34:49 AM »
Wow, reading all this makes me feel really lucky. It sounds like a lot of people's families are a lot more complicated than mine.

I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone in my immediate family how much I make. I'm pretty sure both of my siblings know approximately how much money I earn, and I know about what their salaries are as well. My younger brother just got offered a new job, and when I talked to him on the phone a couple weeks ago, he told me exactly what the offer was, and it was almost double what I'm earning at my job now. I was really happy for my brother! He's been going to school for what seems like forever, and now he's finally got the certifications he's been working so hard to get, and I can't imagine feeling jealousy. He's my brother. I love him, and wish him all the best in life.

Above in the thread others mentioned that the ones who benefit the most from keeping salaries secret are employers. I agree with this. I'm not concerned at all about sharing my salary details with my coworkers. It's the managers who try to get us all to keep our salaries hush hush. Who does that benefit? Them. Not the workers.

One of my brothers is living in Norway, and he told me that he can look up any Norwegian person's salary on the internet. It's all there in black and white. You want to know how much your neighbor or your boss or the barista at the coffee shop on the corner makes, just look it up on the internet. That would be fine with me. I don't have any problem with anyone knowing how much money I make.

Otsog

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2015, 12:51:08 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

Iirc I read that Alan Greenspan specifically hired Women b/c of this when he had a consulting firm. I imagine it happens all the time, companies aren't exactly chomping at the bit to publicize that they are consciously hiring a specific gender to take advantage of a gender pay gap.

Shane

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2015, 12:55:13 AM »
Once the factors (time out for caretaking - of kids and parents, different jobs, etc) are accounted for, as you note the difference drops to 6-7%.  The fact that it still exists is ridiculous because there's no explanation for it beyond gender discrimination/bias, but at the 6-7% figure, it's much easier for people not to notice their internal biases - and thus not go around hiring all women for a company for a competitive advantage (not to mention that's illegal).

I've heard it explained that men are more willing to negotiate on salary and request more than women.  The approximate gain in salary by negotiating for more money is about 7% in favor of men.

A couple years ago one of my brothers took a temporary job teaching in SE Asia for a semester. He said when he was offered the job his employers told him verbally that his salary would be between $3K-$5K/month. Being inexperienced at salary negotiations, my brother didn't say anything. When he arrived at his job and got his first pay check at the end of the first month, he found out that his pay was $3K/month - the minimum.

Over the course of the semester that that my brother was there he got to know his coworkers, who incidentally all happened to be women, and they all ended up sharing the amounts of their salaries with eachother. My brother was the ONLY man in the group, and he was the LOWEST paid of all the teachers. He also was the only one who didn't negotiate when he was told what the salary range was during the interview...

Otsog

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2015, 01:17:29 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

It would require the employer to recognize up front that they're paying women less purely for being women. Even if they kept it a secret, that's still knowingly engaging in illegal behavior.

The whole reason the pay gap can exist is that no one really believes that it does. Once you do believe that it exists, it would be illegal to take advantage of it. So I don't see your scenario working, practically speaking.

How is it illegal? The market is determining men's and women's wages, and apparently it is valuing women at 77 cents on the dollar compared to men.  If I were to start a company I could just adjust the salary I am willing to offer down from 100% to 77% across the board.  Naturally the positions will be filled by mostly women, as a woman is valued as 23%* less valuable as a man for equal qualifications and equal work (ie men won't take the position, but a woman would).  If the positions are not primarily filled by women then I think the premise of the argument is flawed.  It's not so much that the business owner would specifically say "I am hiring only women", he would simply adjust the pay rates down 23%, and the problem would sort itself out with the end result being a work force that is comprised of more women.  The very fact that women do not make up a large majority of the workforce makes me question the entire argument. 

*This is not my opinion, this is the figure supported by the data you guys have posted (which I don't think is correct anyway - I already posted a link earlier in this thread that contains several sources that debunks the 23% value and places it more around 5-7%, which is much more believable imo).
You seem to misunderstand the 23% stat.  The 5-10% (there have been studies that find depending on the profession a 10% starting difference) accounts for direct job to job comparison.  The 23% includes that if you have two equal candidates, one female and one male, given that women need to be better than a man to be judged equal, the man will get the promotion.  And yes, there are studies to back that that up.  Two identical resumes, with only a name change will have female one judged less competent (and a lower salary range) than the male one.  I disagree that the 23% has been debunked, as do most researchers in the field that I have spoken to personally.

I don't think I misunderstand it, I just don't understand how it's not reflected in the workforce population.  Taken to the logical extreme if there was a 100% pay gap, women got paid 0 cents on the dollar for a man.  The workforce would be entirely women, no men at all.  No one would be willing to pay anything above $0 when there are people willing to work for $0.  As the pay gap shrinks I would expect the male/female ratio to approach 1.  With such a huge pay gap there should be a disproportionate amount of women in the workforce, and there isn't.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the 23% value.

You are assuming all the actors are rational, they are not. If everyone was rational the whole MMM site wouldn't need to exist, it would be like having a website devoted to breathing oxygen. If everyone was rational the Efficient Market Hypothesis might actually make sense.  Confirmation bias would easily support the premium male wage for those who don't recognize the discrepancy. Those that do recognize it will quietly take advantage.

I imagine workforce participation gender ratios have many contributing factors other than pay, a 23% pay gap doesn't instantly override cultural norms.  I bet that the female participation rate has been, and will continue to increase dramatically until near parity and the pay gap will continue to close until near parity.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 01:19:16 AM by Otsog »

amberfocus

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2015, 09:21:13 AM »
The only people who know my salary in real life are my parents, who are proud I have a good job and make more than they ever did at the same age; would not tell siblings or friends...it wouldn't benefit anyone in our case.

Ditto. In my experience, (and obviously your family may vary, but) parents are more likely to be proud than jealous when their kids do well. They also tend to worry, so knowing that you're set financially might be good for their peace of mind. I wound up blurting out my financial situation to my dad because I got so sick of him nagging me and trying to micromanage my life and career. It was the only way to get him off my back.

In terms of disclosing to other people including siblings and friends, though, I think the risk of jealousy generally outweigh the benefits. Especially if they are spendthrifts. I don't mind sharing info with fellow Mustachians, though. I might also tell someone my salary if I think it'll prove a point -- like, if a friend is whining about not having enough money, and they make as much or more than I do. But otherwise, I operate on a need-to-know basis.

daymare

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2015, 09:58:31 AM »
Quote
Above in the thread others mentioned that the ones who benefit the most from keeping salaries secret are employers. I agree with this. I'm not concerned at all about sharing my salary details with my coworkers. It's the managers who try to get us all to keep our salaries hush hush. Who does that benefit? Them. Not the workers.

I completely agree with this - lack of disclosure and discussion re: wages is benefiting employers, who are trying to pay everyone as little as possible, and are quite happy with wage disparities among people performing the same role (and certainly would never point out to someone that they're being underpaid).

I had one job (consulting) before going to grad school (PhD that I'm leaving with a master's this summer), and I'll be looking for a new job this summer.  I told all my friends that wanted to know, how much I made at my last job when I started there.  My coworkers and I all started with the same salary (well, each position was different - software engineers made more than us consultants at the start, but all consultants made the same and engineers made the same), then our salaries increased according to our performance reviews. 

So I could see not sharing salary in that case down the road (because you're revealing how your reviews went).  But I recently met up with an old coworker (and friend) and asked him how much he makes now (because, curious) and we talked about it without any awkwardness.  But I'm also extraordinary (some might say, stupidly) open about my finances, and I'm not asking with any bad intentions or to judge, just because I want to know, and I'm always happy to share about my own finances.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2015, 10:25:22 AM »
^ Salary discussions with current colleagues can be incredibly awkward...I'd consider anonymously disclosing on sites like Glass Door and have encouraged close colleagues to request a raise when I got one (quietly though and without mentioning any dollar amounts, since employer has a "no discussing salary" policy.

SuperSaver

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2015, 10:31:33 AM »
Who knows our  salaries? My dad and sister, my fiances parents, 3 cousins and about 12 of our closest friends know.

His parents were told because they were worried about us being on our own! We make more than our states household median income and we have the highest median in the US of the 50 states. They were able to rest assured that we were doing fine in our first "real" jobs and they did not need to worry about us needing help getting started. My dad was told because it brings him tons of pride and joy- he is a vet with a GED (he had dropped out of school at 16) and my sister and I were the first generation to go to college. He sacrificed a lot and really pushed us to achieve and I wanted to let him know he succeeded in raising two self sufficient kids.

Re: friends. My fiance and I are both 24, and believe in being honest about money. I was always the "personal finance friend" so they would have me show them our budgets and spreadsheets, we swap frugal tips, coupons, items we no longer use, etc. My best friends knew what I made at my first job all the way til now and how much I'm paid now in the financial industry. It does not cause jealousy. We know how much they make, we cheer each other on for reaching financial goals and milestones. By being open and honest amongst our friends it takes some of the pressure off- I recently had 3 friends say "I cannot afford to go to Otakon this year" and it was 100% understandable, reasonable and responsible of them. It made me like my friends more that they were wise with their money. :) So I think OP it really depends on the people in your life.

The people who do not know how much we make is work friends and coworkers. We both are not allowed to disclose how much we make. :) I try to only use our joint income number on the forums because it's "fuzzy," in case a coworker comes across my posts and figures out who I am (since they see me typing away on MMM during my breaks).

brooklynmoney

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2015, 05:50:38 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.
have you ever read any behavioral economics? Richard Thaler discusses this issues all the time in his work. It's because we are human not rational autobots that we make decisions all the time that are on a rational basis suboptimal.

Tabaxus

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2015, 06:22:23 AM »
Basically every large law firm is on the same lockstep, and webpages like above the law publish that, along with the bonus information (which is lockstep at some firms, not at others) that anonymous folks send in.

As a result, anyone who knows my name and my firm can look up how much I make, but I still make every effort not to discuss it with anyone other than very close family (who occasionally still try to insist on buying me lunch because "you and [spouse] are still just starting out!"  Ok, thank you, but I heard you talking with [uncle jimbo] about your car payments.  Trust me, I'm fine. 

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2015, 07:13:44 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.
have you ever read any behavioral economics? Richard Thaler discusses this issues all the time in his work. It's because we are human not rational autobots that we make decisions all the time that are on a rational basis suboptimal.
But he is also missing even more basic information than that.  Two people are hired who are equal in education etc, man and woman, male has a higher income by seven percent.  Two years later they are both up for a promotion, though they have done equal work, the male is judged to be better (and yes there are studies that show equal work on the part of a woman and a man equal the man is judged to be better), the male is promoted.  He now gets a 5% raise.  Assuming they did not get COLA raises (because I am lazy, though even that would increase the difference between the two) he now makes 10% greater based on gender alone, because that promotion was given to man because he was judged better based on not his work, but his gender.  Yet, all he wants to consider is the 5-8% when they start as possible.  It is so basic that those who are judged higher will get the promotions. 


frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2015, 11:21:41 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.
have you ever read any behavioral economics? Richard Thaler discusses this issues all the time in his work. It's because we are human not rational autobots that we make decisions all the time that are on a rational basis suboptimal.
But he is also missing even more basic information than that.  Two people are hired who are equal in education etc, man and woman, male has a higher income by seven percent.  Two years later they are both up for a promotion, though they have done equal work, the male is judged to be better (and yes there are studies that show equal work on the part of a woman and a man equal the man is judged to be better), the male is promoted.  He now gets a 5% raise.  Assuming they did not get COLA raises (because I am lazy, though even that would increase the difference between the two) he now makes 10% greater based on gender alone, because that promotion was given to man because he was judged better based on not his work, but his gender.  Yet, all he wants to consider is the 5-8% when they start as possible.  It is so basic that those who are judged higher will get the promotions.

I'm not missing it, as I already stated I understand exactly what your argument is, i'm just saying I don't necessarily agree with it.  If everything you say is demonstrably true, then how are no businesses taking advantage?  I know, I know, it's a bias, but it's also apparently demonstrably true that businesses are systematically overpaying men, and no one is correcting the issue despite the anomaly being well known and published.  It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2015, 12:26:44 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.
have you ever read any behavioral economics? Richard Thaler discusses this issues all the time in his work. It's because we are human not rational autobots that we make decisions all the time that are on a rational basis suboptimal.
But he is also missing even more basic information than that.  Two people are hired who are equal in education etc, man and woman, male has a higher income by seven percent.  Two years later they are both up for a promotion, though they have done equal work, the male is judged to be better (and yes there are studies that show equal work on the part of a woman and a man equal the man is judged to be better), the male is promoted.  He now gets a 5% raise.  Assuming they did not get COLA raises (because I am lazy, though even that would increase the difference between the two) he now makes 10% greater based on gender alone, because that promotion was given to man because he was judged better based on not his work, but his gender.  Yet, all he wants to consider is the 5-8% when they start as possible.  It is so basic that those who are judged higher will get the promotions.

I'm not missing it, as I already stated I understand exactly what your argument is, i'm just saying I don't necessarily agree with it.  If everything you say is demonstrably true, then how are no businesses taking advantage?  I know, I know, it's a bias, but it's also apparently demonstrably true that businesses are systematically overpaying men, and no one is correcting the issue despite the anomaly being well known and published.  It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20761
"We first find that women have significantly lower promotion rates than men across all ranks of the corporate hierarchy, even after controlling for a range of individual characteristics (age, education, tenure, experience) and including fixed effects for current rank, year, industry, and even work establishment." How would knowing that you promote men over women, based on their gender mean that you would decide not to promote a man? 
And you don't seem to understand how that 30% is constructed based on your statements. It is not 30% at the starting line, yes that starts with 5-10% but it is simple math that as raises occur that would widen.  Then you have the promotion issue.  And you are being a perfect example of why it still works.  People want to assume they have no biases so they don't account for them.  Therefore when they have two equal candidates and their bias tells them that the man is better (and is therefore worth being paid more or promoted) they then pay the man more than the woman. 

akstarr

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2015, 03:14:55 PM »
The only person in either one of our families who knows anything about our finances is my brother.  We both discuss things back and forth  and we are both on track to reach FI.  Neither my parents or my husbands parents ever really talked to us about money, it's a learning curve for us both.
We don't discuss finances with the rest of our family or friends it would just create tension, or everyone would want some "help".




Megma

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2015, 03:52:11 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?
Because they judge the female to be inferior to the male.  If you believed someone to be a 3.5 instead of a 4 (on a 1-5 scale) obviously you would think you should be paying them less than the person with a 4 right?  Well, even with the same actions, the female is judged a 3.5 instead of 4.

But if both the 3.5 and 4 both had the same amount of productivity I would think the market would sort it out and exploit that price differential until it's no longer profitable.  How do women not make up the vast majority of the work force?  Is every business owner so misogynistic that they intentionally pay more money for the exact same labor performed by a man? It baffles me.

Well, there's only so many ladies to go around! Especially in some fields, a friend of mine was one of only 3 women in a class of 200 engineering grads, ~5 years ago. Now in my field, we post a job and get 300 applications, all from women. This literally happened last year.

Personally, as a lady, I always ask for more money (ok except that one time I REALLY needed to leave my job) but then I wonder if I should've asked for more of a more? I read an article by a hiring manager who said when women ask for more money they often Are not specific about how much more so she only goes up a few k and then they usually accept, or if they're specific they ask only for a small amount. Whereas men for the same role will typically ask for 15k+ more and then get maybe 8k. So they start with a gap which only increases with % raises over time...

So ask for money ladies!


and on topic, personally I stopped telling family about how much I make. It's way more than either of siblings (I'm the youngest) and my mom can't keep her mouth shut and then sister gets all competitive, tells me she makes the same (lie, she works govt so I know it's a lie) then two breaths later makes me pay for lunch bc she is alllll poooor and doesn't get paid enough. Boo hoo.

I only ever told my parents anything so they would not worry about me being secure and now that ship has sailed. Also I'm 99% sure I make more than my dad and some years maybe more than mom, she owns a business so it's up and down.

So, especially if you have potentially jealous siblings, I would let parents know you're secure and keep the details private. Kinda sounded like you did not really want to tell them anyway.

aschmidt2930

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2015, 03:56:10 PM »
If I'm asked by close friends or family, I'd probably tell them.  With that said, I've hardly ever been asked.  Note that if these friends/family have any known connections with co-workers I would absolutely not tell them.

Under no circumstances would I bring it up.  It sounds braggy and screams seeking approval to me.

mozar

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2015, 04:30:58 PM »
In my field accounting I do find that there are more women than men. It's a field where companies are so desperate for bodies that they see women as competent and willing to hire them at all, and enjoy being able to pay them less because of all the reasons (don't negotiate as much, etc). At the top they are mostly short men. Maybe its that tall men self select into higher paying jobs like IT. Companies aren't thinking they overpay men, they don't think about it. They are just reacting to their biases and the employees behaviors. But I think it's well explained here how bias works.
When I was negotiating I had researched salaries and asked for 15% more than what I was making. I got it, but they said my request was "well within what they offer" Dammit, could've asked for more!

Anyway my mom's siblings are super competitive and frankly racist. They struggle with the fact that I am well paid (they guess based on my career). (I am black, my mom's family is white). But in a few years I would like to openly talk about it, deal with the repercussions in hopes that I can help my cousins, who all hate their jobs.

Megma

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2015, 04:47:50 PM »
In my field accounting I do find that there are more women than men. It's a field where companies are so desperate for bodies that they see women as competent and willing to hire them at all, and enjoy being able to pay them less because of all the reasons (don't negotiate as much, etc). At the top they are mostly short men. Maybe its that tall men self select into higher paying jobs like IT. Companies aren't thinking they overpay men, they don't think about it. They are just reacting to their biases and the employees behaviors. But I think it's well explained here how bias works.
When I was negotiating I had researched salaries and asked for 15% more than what I was making. I got it, but they said my request was "well within what they offer" Dammit, could've asked for more!

Anyway my mom's siblings are super competitive and frankly racist. They struggle with the fact that I am well paid (they guess based on my career). (I am black, my mom's family is white). But in a few years I would like to openly talk about it, deal with the repercussions in hopes that I can help my cousins, who all hate their jobs.

I'm sort of tempted to tell you to mention how great your job is at every family gathering to rub it in their faces...but that would be mean...but maybe the racist aunts and uncles deserve it 😃

mozar

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2015, 06:36:46 PM »
Quote
I'm sort of tempted to tell you to mention how great your job is at every family gathering to rub it in their faces...but that would be mean...but maybe the racist aunts and uncles deserve it

Oh I do! I just don't give specifics, but they have a ballpark.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2015, 10:27:01 PM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.
have you ever read any behavioral economics? Richard Thaler discusses this issues all the time in his work. It's because we are human not rational autobots that we make decisions all the time that are on a rational basis suboptimal.
But he is also missing even more basic information than that.  Two people are hired who are equal in education etc, man and woman, male has a higher income by seven percent.  Two years later they are both up for a promotion, though they have done equal work, the male is judged to be better (and yes there are studies that show equal work on the part of a woman and a man equal the man is judged to be better), the male is promoted.  He now gets a 5% raise.  Assuming they did not get COLA raises (because I am lazy, though even that would increase the difference between the two) he now makes 10% greater based on gender alone, because that promotion was given to man because he was judged better based on not his work, but his gender.  Yet, all he wants to consider is the 5-8% when they start as possible.  It is so basic that those who are judged higher will get the promotions.

I'm not missing it, as I already stated I understand exactly what your argument is, i'm just saying I don't necessarily agree with it.  If everything you say is demonstrably true, then how are no businesses taking advantage?  I know, I know, it's a bias, but it's also apparently demonstrably true that businesses are systematically overpaying men, and no one is correcting the issue despite the anomaly being well known and published.  It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20761
"We first find that women have significantly lower promotion rates than men across all ranks of the corporate hierarchy, even after controlling for a range of individual characteristics (age, education, tenure, experience) and including fixed effects for current rank, year, industry, and even work establishment." How would knowing that you promote men over women, based on their gender mean that you would decide not to promote a man? 
And you don't seem to understand how that 30% is constructed based on your statements. It is not 30% at the starting line, yes that starts with 5-10% but it is simple math that as raises occur that would widen.  Then you have the promotion issue.  And you are being a perfect example of why it still works.  People want to assume they have no biases so they don't account for them.  Therefore when they have two equal candidates and their bias tells them that the man is better (and is therefore worth being paid more or promoted) they then pay the man more than the woman.

So you're basically asking how would knowing you have a bias be actionable? You could become aware of it and realize it's costing you money and takes actions to neutralize the bias. What would you do if I told you that you have a bias that's costing you money that you aren't even aware of?  That you have a bias isn't crazy part, the crazy part would be if you were made aware of the bias, agreed that you do indeed have the bias, and then didn't take steps to counter that bias.  What would you do in that specific scenario you proposed? I don't know, maybe just be aware you have this bias and try to evaluate the situation objectively. 

Yes I fully understand, I am simplifying the entire argument down to a single average value.  If you agree with the 77 cents on the dollar figure as accurate, then the figure of men being paid 30% more than women on average is accurate.  My entire point is that it matters not when the bias takes place (at hiring, at promotion, etc), it's the fact that it exists at all, and means men on average are paid 30% more for the same work.

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2015, 10:43:06 PM »
It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.

This sounds to me like you're saying that the fact that hiring managers aren't favoring women must mean either that there is no [pay] bias or that there is no evidence of bias. Is this an accurate interpretation of your beliefs?

Insanity

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2015, 07:11:12 AM »
My father does our taxes.  So he knows.  I am probably going to need to hire an accountant soon as I am looking to do more products within my business and I am not sure if he wants to handle it.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2015, 07:38:56 AM »
It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.

This sounds to me like you're saying that the fact that hiring managers aren't favoring women must mean either that there is no [pay] bias or that there is no evidence of bias. Is this an accurate interpretation of your beliefs?

No I believe there is a pay gap.  It's pretty much indisputable.  However once you account for various factors the actual gap is far smaller than it initially seems, but still exists.  The "77 cents on the dollar" is very misleading and inaccurate I think.  I'm just playing devil's advocate here. 

So what i'm saying is yes there is pay bias, but it has been brought to the attention of everyone, for a long time now.  How does it continue to persist?  Businesses across the economy have been notified they are all paying a 30% premium to hire/promote men over women, without even realizing it.  Now that they do realize it, why do they not correct their actions?  Why do they still continue to pay 30% more in wages than the market will apparently bear?

jba302

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2015, 07:40:51 AM »
I have 2 friends that I discuss pay with because we have discussions about money, savings rates, house expenses, etc. I have a lot of other friends that I don't discuss pay with because it would be a pissing match with most of them, and others just aren't comfortable discussing salary. I find I'm more willing to talk about it now that I'm making better money, although at some point I would probably quiet up to avoid people thinking I'm a cheap asshole.

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2015, 01:01:50 PM »
I'd probably say something along the lines of: "I'm moving because it's a step up, but hey: it's still work. It ain't enough to retire on, and ya know...I'm still buying lottery tickets."

There are people who snoop, and people who push and think they are entitled to exact information about all kinds of personal info things...but I'm captain of my elevator and I'll kick your ass out on any floor I choose.

Co workers should never know: it makes for a toxic work environment.
Spouse has to know: otherwise how can you be on the same page/same goals?
Parents/siblings: If your parents are gossipy and it could cause waves amongst your friends/neighbors/siblings...I'd do a modified form of the top answer: "You know, I haven't even started it and who knows if it will even pan out, or what the 401k and other things pan out to...ask me in a year."

Rinse. Repeat.

Unless you've been served a subpoena to testify in court...your answers are your own to make up.

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #92 on: May 26, 2015, 03:35:55 PM »
It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.

This sounds to me like you're saying that the fact that hiring managers aren't favoring women must mean either that there is no [pay] bias or that there is no evidence of bias. Is this an accurate interpretation of your beliefs?

No I believe there is a pay gap.  It's pretty much indisputable.  However once you account for various factors the actual gap is far smaller than it initially seems, but still exists.  The "77 cents on the dollar" is very misleading and inaccurate I think.  I'm just playing devil's advocate here. 

So what i'm saying is yes there is pay bias, but it has been brought to the attention of everyone, for a long time now.  How does it continue to persist?  Businesses across the economy have been notified they are all paying a 30% premium to hire/promote men over women, without even realizing it.  Now that they do realize it, why do they not correct their actions?  Why do they still continue to pay 30% more in wages than the market will apparently bear?

You didn't *exactly* answer my question, but my purpose in asking it was to find out if you genuinely want a real-life answer to "why does it persist if everyone knows about it," and (despite your invocation of "devil's advocate") it sounds like you do. So OK, here goes.

I would guess that if you were a hiring manager and you had an open position and you had 100,000 qualified applicants who all wanted the job, you could probably lowball the salary offer and hire whatever most qualified woman was willing to accept it, thereby saving you money. But it doesn't work like that in the real world. When you have an open position, you need to fill it with a qualified person, and there isn't an infinite supply of qualified persons to choose from. On the contrary, once you get past entry-level, you're lucky if you can find one at all. Seriously, how many incompetent coworkers do you have? That's what I thought. So, you're not going to lowball the salary; you're going to offer whatever salary you have to offer to attract suitable candidates. If you play games and think you can offer less than your competitors in hopes of snagging one desperate woman who's a great worker, you're fooling yourself.

As for promotions and raises, my guess there is that employers genuinely believe that women in aggregate deserve less pay than men. Most of them don't know that they believe it, but they do.

Finally: Yes, the pay gap has been documented (however much it is - I'm not staking a position on that), but I would disagree that that therefore means everyone must be aware of it. Rather, lots and lots of people fall over themselves trying to deny that it exists.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2015, 09:30:56 AM »
It makes no sense to me that the bias could persist in the face of evidence proving that men are being over paid by 30% for equal work.

This sounds to me like you're saying that the fact that hiring managers aren't favoring women must mean either that there is no [pay] bias or that there is no evidence of bias. Is this an accurate interpretation of your beliefs?

No I believe there is a pay gap.  It's pretty much indisputable.  However once you account for various factors the actual gap is far smaller than it initially seems, but still exists.  The "77 cents on the dollar" is very misleading and inaccurate I think.  I'm just playing devil's advocate here. 

So what i'm saying is yes there is pay bias, but it has been brought to the attention of everyone, for a long time now.  How does it continue to persist?  Businesses across the economy have been notified they are all paying a 30% premium to hire/promote men over women, without even realizing it.  Now that they do realize it, why do they not correct their actions?  Why do they still continue to pay 30% more in wages than the market will apparently bear?

You didn't *exactly* answer my question, but my purpose in asking it was to find out if you genuinely want a real-life answer to "why does it persist if everyone knows about it," and (despite your invocation of "devil's advocate") it sounds like you do. So OK, here goes.

I would guess that if you were a hiring manager and you had an open position and you had 100,000 qualified applicants who all wanted the job, you could probably lowball the salary offer and hire whatever most qualified woman was willing to accept it, thereby saving you money. But it doesn't work like that in the real world. When you have an open position, you need to fill it with a qualified person, and there isn't an infinite supply of qualified persons to choose from. On the contrary, once you get past entry-level, you're lucky if you can find one at all. Seriously, how many incompetent coworkers do you have? That's what I thought. So, you're not going to lowball the salary; you're going to offer whatever salary you have to offer to attract suitable candidates. If you play games and think you can offer less than your competitors in hopes of snagging one desperate woman who's a great worker, you're fooling yourself.

As for promotions and raises, my guess there is that employers genuinely believe that women in aggregate deserve less pay than men. Most of them don't know that they believe it, but they do.

Finally: Yes, the pay gap has been documented (however much it is - I'm not staking a position on that), but I would disagree that that therefore means everyone must be aware of it. Rather, lots and lots of people fall over themselves trying to deny that it exists.

Yes I did answer your question, with the very first word of my response, followed by an explanation that more accurately reflects my beliefs.   And yes I do want a real life answer of why it persists.  I believe almost all of the pay gap can be explained away, but the remaining amount should still have a plausible explanation.

I'm also not buying your theory that it's difficult to find qualified women candidates with a job pool of 100,000+ applicants.  You are claiming that women are being systematically paid less across the board, while simultaneously claiming you won't be able to hire employees by offering the same wage other women are already accepting (ie market rate) for that work.  That's a bit like claiming corn is a great substitute for soy because it costs 50% less...until you try to purchase it at that price and you can't.  If you can't purchase corn/women at that price on the open market then that is not the market rate, by definition. 

Doing mental gymnastics to think a pay gap doesn't exist (or to exaggerate it as much as the out of context raw data suggests) just means they are in denial, not that they aren't aware of it.  I'm sure many people do truly believe men deserve more than women, and that in and of itself is an explanation for how it could persist.  But then I would have to question why that belief persists, and how long until natural selection skews the ratio of women in the workforce? I'm sure it's hard to quantify each individual's contribution to a large company accurately and precisely, but if their is a real pay gap for equivalent work performed by women it still seems like businesses should react to that by hiring more women at a discount.  Even if they all have a bias and think men truly deserve more for the same job, the Darwinian nature of the economy should still force them to hire more women than men.

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2015, 02:19:00 PM »
I'm also not buying your theory that it's difficult to find qualified women candidates with a job pool of 100,000+ applicants.

? I didn't say that. I said just the opposite.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #95 on: May 27, 2015, 02:39:58 PM »
I'm also not buying your theory that it's difficult to find qualified women candidates with a job pool of 100,000+ applicants.

? I didn't say that. I said just the opposite.

Yes you did.  You said you probably could low ball* and hire an entry level person, but it doesn't work like that in the real world, and once you get past entry level it won't work at all and you'll have to offer whatever salary you have to offer to attract suitable candidates.  That's what i'm having trouble reconciling.  How can women be paid less, across all industries and all employers, yet simultaneously women can't be hired for wages that women are actually paid in the real world?  Women make less than men, until you try to hire them then they cost just as much as men?  I understand it may be difficult to apply to an individual case, but i'm talking about the aggregate of all employees from which the wage gap is derived. 

*If it's what the market will bear, then it's not a low ball offer, it's just a regular offer that the market will bear. 

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #96 on: May 27, 2015, 04:20:23 PM »
I'm also not buying your theory that it's difficult to find qualified women candidates with a job pool of 100,000+ applicants.

? I didn't say that. I said just the opposite.

Yes you did.  You said you probably could low ball* and hire an entry level person, but it doesn't work like that in the real world, and once you get past entry level it won't work at all and you'll have to offer whatever salary you have to offer to attract suitable candidates.  That's what i'm having trouble reconciling.  How can women be paid less, across all industries and all employers, yet simultaneously women can't be hired for wages that women are actually paid in the real world?  Women make less than men, until you try to hire them then they cost just as much as men?  I understand it may be difficult to apply to an individual case, but i'm talking about the aggregate of all employees from which the wage gap is derived. 

*If it's what the market will bear, then it's not a low ball offer, it's just a regular offer that the market will bear.
Actually it is not in all industries, just ones where the job is considered masculine.  For example, male teachers are not paid more than female teachers yet if you look at school administration male administrators are paid more than female.  It has to do with bias and people's unwillingness to admit they have it and you have been a perfect example.  Did you even check out the studies I posted, or did you just dismiss them like you dismissed my statements?

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #97 on: May 27, 2015, 07:38:14 PM »
I'm also not buying your theory that it's difficult to find qualified women candidates with a job pool of 100,000+ applicants.

? I didn't say that. I said just the opposite.

Yes you did. 

Dude. I did not. See below.

I would guess that if you were a hiring manager and you had an open position and you had 100,000 qualified applicants who all wanted the job, you could probably lowball the salary offer and hire whatever most qualified woman was willing to accept it, thereby saving you money.

You said you probably could low ball* and hire an entry level person, but it doesn't work like that in the real world, and once you get past entry level it won't work at all and you'll have to offer whatever salary you have to offer to attract suitable candidates.  That's what i'm having trouble reconciling.  How can women be paid less, across all industries and all employers, yet simultaneously women can't be hired for wages that women are actually paid in the real world?  Women make less than men, until you try to hire them then they cost just as much as men?  I understand it may be difficult to apply to an individual case, but i'm talking about the aggregate of all employees from which the wage gap is derived. 

*If it's what the market will bear, then it's not a low ball offer, it's just a regular offer that the market will bear.

You're talking about the aggregate, but people don't hire in the aggregate. Your theory assumes that for every position you offer, you will get two equally qualified male and female applicants and the woman will accept a lower salary. That's highly unlikely to happen even once, let alone often enough to take advantage.

jba302

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2015, 06:43:17 AM »

Yes you did.  You said you probably could low ball* and hire an entry level person, but it doesn't work like that in the real world, and once you get past entry level it won't work at all and you'll have to offer whatever salary you have to offer to attract suitable candidates.  That's what i'm having trouble reconciling.  How can women be paid less, across all industries and all employers, yet simultaneously women can't be hired for wages that women are actually paid in the real world?  Women make less than men, until you try to hire them then they cost just as much as men?  I understand it may be difficult to apply to an individual case, but i'm talking about the aggregate of all employees from which the wage gap is derived. 

*If it's what the market will bear, then it's not a low ball offer, it's just a regular offer that the market will bear.

That's not really how people hire. You start with a salary band, you hire the best candidate, then you offer the salary. The last step is where women get screwed over. You are going at Cress's point in the completely incorrect direction. It isn't a "this salary number attracts women" situation.

CommonCents

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2015, 07:14:20 AM »
Doing mental gymnastics to think a pay gap doesn't exist (or to exaggerate it as much as the out of context raw data suggests) just means they are in denial, not that they aren't aware of it.  I'm sure many people do truly believe men deserve more than women, and that in and of itself is an explanation for how it could persist. But then I would have to question why that belief persists, and how long until natural selection skews the ratio of women in the workforce? I'm sure it's hard to quantify each individual's contribution to a large company accurately and precisely, but if their is a real pay gap for equivalent work performed by women it still seems like businesses should react to that by hiring more women at a discount.  Even if they all have a bias and think men truly deserve more for the same job, the Darwinian nature of the economy should still force them to hire more women than men.

A pretty long damn time actually, if you go by evidence of other prior discrimination.  Slavery, for example, persisted till the 1860s, and even afterwards people believed for a long time that African Americans were inferior people or Brown v. Board of Education wouldn't have happened in 1954, over 75 years later.  (And even then, "all deliberate speed" wasn't erhm, speedy, nor did it immediately change internal beliefs with the same speed.)

Other instances: Native Americans, Asian Americans (both during 1800s and later in World War II when we put Japanese American into camps during the war), Jewish, Irish, Polish, Catholics, now its people from the Middle East.  Seems people like thinking they are inherently "better" than others.