Author Topic: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?  (Read 34082 times)

lukebuz

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Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« on: May 20, 2015, 08:39:00 AM »
So, I just got a new job offer, with a salary higher than I was expecting to be offered.  It's nothing crazy, but it's high enough that I'll be the top earner out of my family/friends; even parents who have worked 20 years longer than I, an older brother with an MBA, etc.
This job will require a move, and given past history, they are going to be asking "what will you make?" "are you making enough to make the move worthwhile", etc....
Should I tell them?  They are going to want a number.  If I shouldn't, what would you say?

Tremeroy

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 08:44:51 AM »
I think that it's a matter of your own personality & the dynamics you have with your family members & friends. Given that you seem to know how much each of them is being paid, it seems that the topic is "fair game." My advice is that there could be a meaningful shift in dynamics—be mindful of how your friends & family will feel about what you say & how you say it. Also, realize that their questions about your new salary might actually be a way for them to express their fear of change / fear that your new job will damage your existing relationships.

Personally, I have never felt comfortable volunteering specifics about how much I am paid. My family shares this dynamic—we discuss income in very general terms, although we go into specifics on expenses (and sharing details on how to save a few bucks).

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 08:46:51 AM »
So, I just got a new job offer, with a salary higher than I was expecting to be offered.  It's nothing crazy, but it's high enough that I'll be the top earner out of my family/friends; even parents who have worked 20 years longer than I, an older brother with an MBA, etc.
This job will require a move, and given past history, they are going to be asking "what will you make?" "are you making enough to make the move worthwhile", etc....
Should I tell them?  They are going to want a number.  If I shouldn't, what would you say?

Well if you already know that you will be "top earner" then it seems everyone around you freely discusses salary, so why not, you know you really want to;)

Giro

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 08:48:27 AM »
I wish salaries were more are open and public knowledge similar to government salaries.  My husband is retired military and now a civil servant so he knows exactly what he's being paid and will be paid with the next promotion.  There are faults with that system, but the idea that there is a standard is very nice.  If we were more open with actual numbers in all career fields, I bet there wouldn't be as many people (many women) who earn less than others in a given position.  I am a federal contractor and I negotiate salaries with potential employee candidates.  I can tell you that there are some great negotiators but MANY people don't know what they are worth and there are wide ranges of pay for people doing the same job.  I just really dislike seeing non-performers earning so much more than really hard working people. 

Kinda like car buying.  It used to be you had no idea if you got a good deal and if you shaved some money off of the price you felt okay but always had that thought....wonder if he would have gone down more?   Now, you go on websites to find out the invoice price, you research what others have paid and what a good value is and then you know.

wow, did I got off on a tangent.



gt7152b

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 08:56:46 AM »
I would just tell them the percent increase if they express concerns about affording the relocation. If they already know what you currently make it won't take them long to do the math but it won't sound like bragging. If nobody asks, don't say a word about it.

lukebuz

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 09:07:48 AM »
Yeah, they know what I make now - so a % increase is out.
The only reason I really know their salaries (and revealed mine), is because almost all of them work for the state, county, or university - so all their salaries are public records.
Yes, I want to tell them, but then I think it's going to drive expectations of spending (like flying back to see them instead of driving, buying new cars, etc), and of course, I don't want to inflate my lifestyle!

Kris

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 09:08:04 AM »
This entirely depends on you. If you want to -- if it will make you proud or happy to tell them -- go ahead.  If you think there is a likelihood of negative repercussions, whatever they are (them resenting you, them being passive-aggressive with the knowledge, them asking you for money because of it, etc.) then don't.  People can try to make you do things.  Whether you do them are not is entirely on you.  If you don't want to tell them, and they keep asking for numbers, all you have to do is say, "It's enough to be worth it."  If they persist, just tell them you aren't going to tell them.  They can't ask forever.

mtn

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 09:15:30 AM »
I probably wouldn't tell them specifics. I might even lie, even though I hate that idea.

Some ideas that I would have depending on the exact situation:
*More money than I am now, but COL is going up accordingly with the new area
*About the same, but a better commission schedule   
*With the bonus system, it should be a considerable amount more but I'll be living lower-middle class out there (probably not a lie if you're mustachian)
*Company has a policy that they really don't want people telling their salary. But yeah, it is a nice bit of change
*I got a raise, but it isn't huge--I just liked the company better and wanted something new 
*Yeah, but it isn't huge--they ARE paying to move me out there though!
*More money, but the benefits suck

I figure that there is some truth in at least one of those statements that you wouldn't be blatantly lying.

lukebuz

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 09:22:12 AM »
Yup, the "Enough to make it worthwhile" was going to be my line.  I'll be best to just keep my lips zipped.

Chris22

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 10:07:44 AM »
I wish salaries were more are open and public knowledge similar to government salaries.  My husband is retired military and now a civil servant so he knows exactly what he's being paid and will be paid with the next promotion.  There are faults with that system, but the idea that there is a standard is very nice.

100% disagree.  The idea of a "standard" is that everyone is a standard worker.  If you're making widgets in a factory, maybe, but everywhere else there is a quality spread and there is a salary spread. 

What I do think is silly is the HR rules governing raises and salaries.  I recently hired an individual, and I had approval for a certain salary level on the req.  When I selected my desired candidate, a market analysis suggested he be paid about 110% of that approved req, and HR gladly waived that requirement without thinking twice about it.  OTOH, if I were to have promoted a candidate internally, I would have had a maximum amount I would have been able to pay that candidate as a raise, capping at about 10% of their salary, regardless of where that landed them in the overall market. 

Basically, we are not willing to pay more for the talent that we have that have proven themselves exceptional and worthy of a promotion, but we are willing to blindly throw almost any amount of money at an external candidate who is an unknown quantity outside of a resume and a few 30 minute interviews.  Completely backwards and a stupid way to do business. 


Quote
If we were more open with actual numbers in all career fields, I bet there wouldn't be as many people (many women) who earn less than others in a given position.

This has been almost entirely disproven with statistics showing that lower womens' salaries tend to be A) from self-selected jobs (more women nurses, more male stock brokers) and B) from females interupting their careers to have children. 

If you remove these (self selected) variables, the gender wage gap effectively disappears.

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 10:13:04 AM »
I wish salaries were more are open and public knowledge similar to government salaries.  My husband is retired military and now a civil servant so he knows exactly what he's being paid and will be paid with the next promotion.  There are faults with that system, but the idea that there is a standard is very nice.

100% disagree.  The idea of a "standard" is that everyone is a standard worker.  If you're making widgets in a factory, maybe, but everywhere else there is a quality spread and there is a salary spread. 

What I do think is silly is the HR rules governing raises and salaries.  I recently hired an individual, and I had approval for a certain salary level on the req.  When I selected my desired candidate, a market analysis suggested he be paid about 110% of that approved req, and HR gladly waived that requirement without thinking twice about it.  OTOH, if I were to have promoted a candidate internally, I would have had a maximum amount I would have been able to pay that candidate as a raise, capping at about 10% of their salary, regardless of where that landed them in the overall market. 

Basically, we are not willing to pay more for the talent that we have that have proven themselves exceptional and worthy of a promotion, but we are willing to blindly throw almost any amount of money at an external candidate who is an unknown quantity outside of a resume and a few 30 minute interviews.  Completely backwards and a stupid way to do business. 


Quote
If we were more open with actual numbers in all career fields, I bet there wouldn't be as many people (many women) who earn less than others in a given position.

This has been almost entirely disproven with statistics showing that lower womens' salaries tend to be A) from self-selected jobs (more women nurses, more male stock brokers) and B) from females interupting their careers to have children. 

If you remove these (self selected) variables, the gender wage gap effectively disappears.
That is not true.  When removing all variables (for example an article which looked at starting physicians in the same field) they still found a statistical difference which would increase over the lifetimes.  This group had set out to prove your statement and had to eat their words.

TheThirstyStag

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 10:27:12 AM »
People, in general, are weird about money so I tend to keep specific numbers close to my chest.

I like the idea of throwing out a percent increase to your family to communicate that it's worth it. 

When you're the top earner in your family, people start to expect you to pay for things simply because you can afford it.  Lots of people start expecting more expensive gifts around birthdays, holidays, etc.  People are just weird when it comes to money..

Chris22

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 10:31:02 AM »
That is not true.  When removing all variables (for example an article which looked at starting physicians in the same field) they still found a statistical difference which would increase over the lifetimes.  This group had set out to prove your statement and had to eat their words.

Have a source?  The only other variable I've seen discussed is men being more willing to negotiate salaries.  Otherwise, every article and study I've read suggested these were the variables driving the gap, and they were essentially self imposed. 

Kris

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 10:34:47 AM »
People, in general, are weird about money so I tend to keep specific numbers close to my chest.

I like the idea of throwing out a percent increase to your family to communicate that it's worth it. 

When you're the top earner in your family, people start to expect you to pay for things simply because you can afford it.  Lots of people start expecting more expensive gifts around birthdays, holidays, etc.  People are just weird when it comes to money..

This is a little off-topic, but a friend of ours who started up a non-profit with his wife to train service dogs stopped by our house last night to ask us to be on his board of directors for the non-profit.  He had had his parents as their members, but said he needs to go more legitimate with non-related board members in order to be eligible for a wider variety of grants, etc.  During the conversation he was telling us the information we'd be privy to as board members, and told us the salaries he and his wife were hoping to pay themselves this year.  It was really weird just having him blurt this out.  Like, it was a totally reasonable amount and everything, but to just have him say it, I was suddenly willing myself to just keep my face neutral, like "Oh, sure, yeah, you just told me your salary, no big deal."  And I know stuff about this guy that is way more "personal," from an objective standpoint.  Money is so freaking weird. 

Chris22

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2015, 10:35:43 AM »
People, in general, are weird about money so I tend to keep specific numbers close to my chest.

I like the idea of throwing out a percent increase to your family to communicate that it's worth it. 

When you're the top earner in your family, people start to expect you to pay for things simply because you can afford it.  Lots of people start expecting more expensive gifts around birthdays, holidays, etc.  People are just weird when it comes to money..

I guess you have to know if your family are scumbags or not.  It would never even occur to me that I should expect anything from my sister and her husband, and my parents, because they make more than my wife and I do.  The spread isn't that big, I don't know exact numbers, but amongst the 6 of us the lowest paid makes ~$100k and the highest paid ~$200k, so everyone is reasonably successful and no one's making millions, but still, no one expects anything from anyone else. 

lsaurus

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2015, 10:42:36 AM »
http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf

I haven't posted a link before so I am not sure I did it correctly. This report shows the average annual earnings one year after graduation by gender.  It breaks it down by occupation too, some fields are level and others are not.  One year after graduation women haven't taken time off to raise children. 


nottoscale

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2015, 10:49:28 AM »
Who cares about who knows your salary ? I've never really understood the stigma, we were always really open in my family about money so that could be it. I'll tell my friends what I made this year last year and what my house costs and what I paid in taxes on it. Hell if the cashier at the store asked me I might tell her too.  If it's a lot then maybe they will ask for something but you can still say no and they are shitty people for asking for a hand out. If it's not a lot what are they going to do ? Judge you, not invite you to places they don't think you can afford so be it.  The worst thing I could see someone doing if they find otu you make a lot less then them is offering to pick up the tab at dinner, and though it may feel a little bad I would totally allow it. 

Roots&Wings

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2015, 11:06:10 AM »
The only people who know my salary in real life are my parents, who are proud I have a good job and make more than they ever did at the same age; would not tell siblings or friends...it wouldn't benefit anyone in our case.

hoosier

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2015, 11:16:13 AM »
I don't tell anyone what I make.  Not that it is a fantastic amount of money, because it is pretty modest, but 9/10 times someone will be jealous of you instead of happy for you if you make more.  Why stir the pot?

AJ

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2015, 11:28:36 AM »
I would withhold the precise salary information even if it creates a momentary awkward situation for you. Better to just bite the bullet and establish the precedent now that you don't disclose your salary. I wish everyone could be forthcoming with that information and that it wasn't taboo. But the truth is that it will create an expectation that you have money to burn. If that isn't something you want, then you'll have to be a bit withholding of your information.


The only other variable I've seen discussed is men being more willing to negotiate salaries.

Not just more willing to negotiate, but when women do negotiate they are perceived as demanding and "bitchy", whereas when men do the same they are perceived as confident and in command. As a result, women who choose to negotiate are less likely to get the job. (https://hbr.org/2014/06/why-women-dont-negotiate-their-job-offers/)

HenryDavid

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 11:33:57 AM »
OK, think about this idea that sharing salary information is akin to dropping your trousers--a socially unacceptable display of something private.
Who benefits from the secrecy? Who does the idea that it's all private, actually protect?

Once at an hourly-wage job I inadvertently blabbed my own pay rate. This pissed off a coworker so much he demanded, and got, a raise. He'd been there longer, knew more, but was earning less. Salary secrecy harmed him, but saved our employer money. For a while.

I think salary secrecy comes from the knowledge we all share that there's rarely anything fair about earnings, and even when their is, humans are envious. So talking about it will just upset people. But do we want to reinforce the unfairness, by keeping our lips zipped? Why all these money taboos?

Since I'm paid with tax dollars--I still work in education, for a little while longer--my salary is public knowledge for interested parties. It's in the top 10% in Canada now, nearly 50% above the median at the moment. Sometimes I do share the amount and people sometimes do get cranky--so I tell them, you're right, you should go for it and get this job yourself. It's pretty sweet." At that point they often say, "forget that, I would never want to do all the school you did and then risk ending up where I started because it's such a competitive field." So there's a recognition of something like fairness. Maybe this moderates the envy. But in the end . . . who's served by all the secrecy?


Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2015, 12:39:54 PM »
That is not true.  When removing all variables (for example an article which looked at starting physicians in the same field) they still found a statistical difference which would increase over the lifetimes.  This group had set out to prove your statement and had to eat their words.

Have a source?  The only other variable I've seen discussed is men being more willing to negotiate salaries. Otherwise, every article and study I've read suggested these were the variables driving the gap, and they were essentially self imposed.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short
Then you have not looked very much.  There have been multiple studies, in different fields, that show a significant gender bias.   Including that subjects will consistently rate a female lower than a male, skills wise, even if the skills are the same (or even, if the person is the same person as shown by a study based around online instructors).
Also, there have been studies showing that union based jobs have lower gender pay discrimination which could be based on the knowledge of wages or that employers are most answerable. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2015, 01:07:43 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?

Gone Fishing

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2015, 01:09:48 PM »
A decade ago, close friend disclosed his salary to me.  He was making $95k in IT despite having a totally unrelated college major (history).  It was about 3 times what I was making at the time and it really changed my perception of what a 20 something year old could make in private industry if they worked the right opportunities. 

This is a bit of a wild card in the dicussion, but to the right person, a little information may go a long way towards motivating them to go "big". 

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2015, 01:16:03 PM »

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2015, 01:22:02 PM »
Yes, I want to tell them, but then I think it's going to drive expectations of spending (like flying back to see them instead of driving, buying new cars, etc), and of course, I don't want to inflate my lifestyle!

Agree with the people that have said it depends on your relationship dynamic.  I'm open about salary with some people that I know won't care, and less open with those I know will be weird about it.

But I also wanted to comment on the above, that is a crappy reason to not tell them if you otherwise want to.  Who gives a shit if they think you should be spending more money because you're making more?  You don't owe an explanation of your spending or your lifestyle to anyone (except maybe your spouse if you have one).  I don't get those comments often but when I do I just smile and shrug (because it always seems to be the people that are bad with money trying to tell the people that are good with money what they should be doing with it, and I have to bite my tongue to not point out the irony to them...)

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2015, 01:41:31 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?
Because they judge the female to be inferior to the male.  If you believed someone to be a 3.5 instead of a 4 (on a 1-5 scale) obviously you would think you should be paying them less than the person with a 4 right?  Well, even with the same actions, the female is judged a 3.5 instead of 4. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2015, 01:51:32 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?
Because they judge the female to be inferior to the male.  If you believed someone to be a 3.5 instead of a 4 (on a 1-5 scale) obviously you would think you should be paying them less than the person with a 4 right?  Well, even with the same actions, the female is judged a 3.5 instead of 4.

But if both the 3.5 and 4 both had the same amount of productivity I would think the market would sort it out and exploit that price differential until it's no longer profitable.  How do women not make up the vast majority of the work force?  Is every business owner so misogynistic that they intentionally pay more money for the exact same labor performed by a man? It baffles me.

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2015, 02:00:47 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?
Because they judge the female to be inferior to the male.  If you believed someone to be a 3.5 instead of a 4 (on a 1-5 scale) obviously you would think you should be paying them less than the person with a 4 right?  Well, even with the same actions, the female is judged a 3.5 instead of 4.

But if both the 3.5 and 4 both had the same amount of productivity I would think the market would sort it out and exploit that price differential until it's no longer profitable.  How do women not make up the vast majority of the work force?  Is every business owner so misogynistic that they intentionally pay more money for the exact same labor performed by a man? It baffles me.
Because it is not intensional and they don't think they are getting the same labor from the men, as I said, they think the man is better.  I'll give an example from research, two professors each taught an online course.  Half of each course believed the professor to either male or female.  Regardless of the actual gender of the professor, the students who thought the professor was female judged the professor to be worse.  And those scores are part of what determine the wage of the professor. 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 02:02:32 PM by Gin1984 »

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2015, 02:10:42 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?
Because they judge the female to be inferior to the male.  If you believed someone to be a 3.5 instead of a 4 (on a 1-5 scale) obviously you would think you should be paying them less than the person with a 4 right?  Well, even with the same actions, the female is judged a 3.5 instead of 4.

But if both the 3.5 and 4 both had the same amount of productivity I would think the market would sort it out and exploit that price differential until it's no longer profitable.  How do women not make up the vast majority of the work force?  Is every business owner so misogynistic that they intentionally pay more money for the exact same labor performed by a man? It baffles me.
Because it is not intensional and they don't think they are getting the same labor from the men, as I said, they think the man is better.  I'll give an example from research, two professors each taught an online course.  Half of each course believed the professor to either male or female.  Regardless of the actual gender of the professor, the students who thought the professor was female judged the professor to be worse.  And those scores are part of what determine the wage of the professor.

Yea but businesses don't have a ledger of "feels", they have a ledger of real economic transactions including labor costs. Businesses will reduce operating costs whenever they can, and if they have the opportunity and don't seize it, then their competition will come along and drive them out of business by having lowering costs.  It just baffles me that such a huge anomaly could exist and persist for so long, and suggests that nearly every business in existence is being grossly mismanaged and no one is stepping in to scoop up potential profits.  Lowering your labor costs by 23% would be a massive gain to any business.


Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2015, 02:27:57 PM »
Why does anyone ever hire men when they can apparently get a substantial labor discount by hiring equally qualified women?
Because they judge the female to be inferior to the male.  If you believed someone to be a 3.5 instead of a 4 (on a 1-5 scale) obviously you would think you should be paying them less than the person with a 4 right?  Well, even with the same actions, the female is judged a 3.5 instead of 4.

But if both the 3.5 and 4 both had the same amount of productivity I would think the market would sort it out and exploit that price differential until it's no longer profitable.  How do women not make up the vast majority of the work force?  Is every business owner so misogynistic that they intentionally pay more money for the exact same labor performed by a man? It baffles me.
Because it is not intensional and they don't think they are getting the same labor from the men, as I said, they think the man is better.  I'll give an example from research, two professors each taught an online course.  Half of each course believed the professor to either male or female.  Regardless of the actual gender of the professor, the students who thought the professor was female judged the professor to be worse.  And those scores are part of what determine the wage of the professor.

Yea but businesses don't have a ledger of "feels", they have a ledger of real economic transactions including labor costs. Businesses will reduce operating costs whenever they can, and if they have the opportunity and don't seize it, then their competition will come along and drive them out of business by having lowering costs.  It just baffles me that such a huge anomaly could exist and persist for so long, and suggests that nearly every business in existence is being grossly mismanaged and no one is stepping in to scoop up potential profits.  Lowering your labor costs by 23% would be a massive gain to any business.
Because everyone is coming from the same point and no, much of business is not quantified.  And even when you are quantifying, the bias interferes. And everyone has the bias (or almost everyone).   That said, there are ways to take advantage of this and save a lot of money.  For example, one of my coworkers had a kid in grad school.  Daycare was/is expensive.  She wanted to work all weekend, plus three days during the week to pay less on daycare.  Her boss let her, with a small paycut (still the daycare made up for it).  Now, I know how many publications she got, and I did pass by her lab often.  She worked her ass off and achieved a lot.  Then you had the majority of grad students who were lab a lot, yet much of that time was hanging out, playing on Facebook, "getting organized" etc and those students (who made more) produced less.   Yet, guess who was thought to be the most productive, the ones that were there a lot.  Their bosses saw their faces more. 

AJ

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2015, 02:53:51 PM »
Yea but businesses don't have a ledger of "feels", they have a ledger of real economic transactions including labor costs. Businesses will reduce operating costs whenever they can, and if they have the opportunity and don't seize it, then their competition will come along and drive them out of business by having lowering costs. 

There isn't a literal line for "feels", no. But there are a lot of unquantified components to labor cost. As an example, there is no way to objectively quantify my productivity as a software developer. You could try to quantify pieces, like how many lines of code I write per hour or something, but it would be a terrible measure of how effective I am at my job. You could count how many hours I work, but that is also a terrible measure. Every project I work is so drastically different from the one before, and from those of my peers, that there isn't a 1-for-1 way to directly compare to see if I am a "good value". How do my bosses decide if I'm worth the cost? It is their job to subjectively measure me, and use their best judgement of how well I do compared to my peers. That subjective measure is the best they can do, but it can't ever be totally protected from bias. I would venture to say that all knowledge work falls into this category.

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2015, 06:41:42 PM »
It sounds like you expect your family to view and treat you differently (and not in a good way), so I'd just tell them the money was about the same but the career prospects are a lot better and they're paying all the move costs.  "Plus, I always wanted to live in ________!"

kpd905

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2015, 08:00:18 PM »
I wouldn't tell them.  And I'd also be surprised if all of your family and friends actually asked you for your salary. 

Milizard

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2015, 08:17:58 PM »
Just tell them it will help you retire quicker.  That takes care of saying it pays more, while also reinforcing why you're not going to blow the extra money.

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2015, 08:33:43 PM »
Yea but businesses don't have a ledger of "feels", they have a ledger of real economic transactions including labor costs. Businesses will reduce operating costs whenever they can, and if they have the opportunity and don't seize it, then their competition will come along and drive them out of business by having lowering costs. 

There isn't a literal line for "feels", no. But there are a lot of unquantified components to labor cost. As an example, there is no way to objectively quantify my productivity as a software developer. You could try to quantify pieces, like how many lines of code I write per hour or something, but it would be a terrible measure of how effective I am at my job. You could count how many hours I work, but that is also a terrible measure. Every project I work is so drastically different from the one before, and from those of my peers, that there isn't a 1-for-1 way to directly compare to see if I am a "good value". How do my bosses decide if I'm worth the cost? It is their job to subjectively measure me, and use their best judgement of how well I do compared to my peers. That subjective measure is the best they can do, but it can't ever be totally protected from bias. I would venture to say that all knowledge work falls into this category.

It ends up being all quantified though.  All the expenses come out, and then what's left if the businesses profit.  If the business doesn't make profit it goes under.  So what's to stop some other software development company to hire an all female staff for 23% less pay? They should be able to substantially undercut your companies prices thus driving you out of the market.  I'm not buying the argument that businesses in general are absolutely clueless about properly evaluating someone's worth to the company.

Essentially the argument is that woman get paid 23% less than a man for equal work, and presumably equal value to the company.  This is a widely known fact that everyone is aware of.  Despite knowing about it, NO ONE puts it into practice for their business. 

Zinsch

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2015, 08:35:14 PM »
I don't have a problem with telling others how much I make.  I mean, seriously, why should it be my problem, if someone else can't handle it?
Friends also tell me, if I ask them. Don't see the problem at all, really.

BlueHouse

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2015, 09:32:04 PM »
I don't have a problem with telling others how much I make.  I mean, seriously, why should it be my problem, if someone else can't handle it?
Friends also tell me, if I ask them. Don't see the problem at all, really.
It's usually only a problem if you make more than someone who considers themselves to be your equal or a superior. I don't tell anyone my pay rate, despite the fact that the decision makers I work with all have access to it. If I'm perceived as making "too much money" , then they have the power to hurt me financially. And it's not too much for what I do, or for the value. People are funnny about money and it's always compared back to themselves.
Anytime someone makes a comment about how expensive my time is, I always try to minimize it with "I wish I got to keep all that" and then start mumbling about taxes and business expenses, etc.
this is part of the reason that I also join in on bitching and complaining about the cost of things or how long until I can retire. People generally want you to do well, as long as they are doing better than you.

mtn

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2015, 10:06:59 PM »
Just another viewpoint to think about: my fiancé grew up in a family that income wise ranged from lower middle class to upper class and eventually falling down to lower middle class due to cost of living and income variations (as a political aside, aca is probably the worst thing to happen to that family other than the major bomb of ms). They live a life slightly ore lavish than ours; whereas they would call my dad cheap, it is the wrong word--he just is picky about what he spends his money on, so gets stickley furniture to last for fifty years instead of replacing it every ten.

It is interesting, but I just bought a product from my dad for $1100. That was a real sweetheart deal he made me, it is worth at least 500 more. I had earlier in the day sold two of those objects for about double what I paid my dad. And yet when I told my fiancés mom, she asked why didn't he just give it to me? I thought that was an interesting viewpoint. He had already given me another of these widgets worth about $3000 when I graduated college. And he gave me a car. And free room and board. Why should he just give me everything? I'm not entitled to it. She said because he doesn't need it or the money. Well, true, but the same is true for me. Why don't I just take his car then? And his boat, and his 401k?

This is a woman who grew up with no wants, but also didn't have much. I think she has trouble being the first in her family to have a lot. My dad grew up with a wealthy father. He was given every leg up in the world, like me, but he wasn't given handouts. I think that those who are new to it can't tell the difference in a leg up and a handout. Don't put them in a position where they will think either is owed to them.

trailrated

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2015, 10:59:12 PM »
If you are going to answer something maybe just throw out your take home pay and don't mention how you are maxing your retirement accounts/HSA, etc.

AJ

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2015, 11:00:27 PM »
It ends up being all quantified though.  All the expenses come out, and then what's left if the businesses profit.  If the business doesn't make profit it goes under.  So what's to stop some other software development company to hire an all female staff for 23% less pay? They should be able to substantially undercut your companies prices thus driving you out of the market.  I'm not buying the argument that businesses in general are absolutely clueless about properly evaluating someone's worth to the company.

Essentially the argument is that woman get paid 23% less than a man for equal work, and presumably equal value to the company.  This is a widely known fact that everyone is aware of.  Despite knowing about it, NO ONE puts it into practice for their business. 

It would be taboo (and illegal) to deliberately hire a specific gender so that you could pay them less. Most sexism (and racism too, for that matter) is not overt - it is not being done at a rational, cognitive level. Well-meaning, otherwise upstanding people can still harbor unconscious biases that, when multiplied over thousands and thousands of decisions, result in a population-level wage-gap. It isn't just race and sex either - taller people are paid more than shorter people for the same work, and overweight people are paid less.

Do you really not think gender-bias exists in the working world? If so, how do you explain controlled studies that show it does? In this one, as an example, researchers sent out identical resumes where the only difference was the name - one had a stereotypically female name and the other stereotypically male. The female resumes were rated lower and offered lower starting salaries - literally for having a feminine name. Whether this "logically should" happen is irrelevant if it actually is happening.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

Cressida

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2015, 11:26:28 PM »
It would be taboo (and illegal) to deliberately hire a specific gender so that you could pay them less. Most sexism (and racism too, for that matter) is not overt - it is not being done at a rational, cognitive level. Well-meaning, otherwise upstanding people can still harbor unconscious biases that, when multiplied over thousands and thousands of decisions, result in a population-level wage-gap. It isn't just race and sex either - taller people are paid more than shorter people for the same work, and overweight people are paid less.

Do you really not think gender-bias exists in the working world? If so, how do you explain controlled studies that show it does? In this one, as an example, researchers sent out identical resumes where the only difference was the name - one had a stereotypically female name and the other stereotypically male. The female resumes were rated lower and offered lower starting salaries - literally for having a feminine name. Whether this "logically should" happen is irrelevant if it actually is happening.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

Yeah, exactly.

No software development company (since I guess that's what we're talking about) actually believes that they're paying men more than they're paying equally qualified women. So it would be literally impossible for that company to think, "hm, we pay women less, so let's hire only women!" If the company is paying women less, it's because they believe the women are worth less. So why would they hire more of them?

This is what's actually going on. The company doesn't see "qualified man" and "equally qualified woman" and think, score, I can hire the woman and get equal work for less expense. That's not what happens. What happens is, the company sees "qualified man" and "equally qualified woman" and thinks, "I could hire the more qualified man and pay more, or I could hire the less qualified woman and pay less. Same cost benefit for me either way." *That* is how pay inequity comes about.

I don't think this is that hard.

(edited: clarity)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 11:33:55 PM by Cressida »

frugalnacho

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2015, 08:22:57 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

Chris22

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2015, 08:37:18 AM »
Do the cost/benefit analysis on telling someone your salary.

Potential costs:
-Jealousy (too high)
-Pity (too low)
-Hit you up for $$
-Expect certain lifestyle from you
-Criticise your spending decisons
-etc

Potential benefits:
-They're happy for you
-Ummm?

Gone Fishing

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2015, 08:38:20 AM »
This thread is way off topic, but while we are at it, I firmly believe there is a "caretaker" penalty baked into women's salaries.  Whether it is true or not, a lot of people assume that a woman is going to be the one to bear and take care of infant children, older sick children, or sick parents and thus miss more work which in turn is reflected in salary.  This paradigm has changed somewhat, but women will always be the ones to bear children. 

It would be interesting to see what salaries were like in a cohort of women that were very vocal about not wanting children.

Dee 72013

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2015, 08:44:54 AM »
Just another viewpoint to think about: my fiancé grew up in a family that income wise ranged from lower middle class to upper class and eventually falling down to lower middle class due to cost of living and income variations (as a political aside, aca is probably the worst thing to happen to that family other than the major bomb of ms). They live a life slightly ore lavish than ours; whereas they would call my dad cheap, it is the wrong word--he just is picky about what he spends his money on, so gets stickley furniture to last for fifty years instead of replacing it every ten.

It is interesting, but I just bought a product from my dad for $1100. That was a real sweetheart deal he made me, it is worth at least 500 more. I had earlier in the day sold two of those objects for about double what I paid my dad. And yet when I told my fiancés mom, she asked why didn't he just give it to me? I thought that was an interesting viewpoint. He had already given me another of these widgets worth about $3000 when I graduated college. And he gave me a car. And free room and board. Why should he just give me everything? I'm not entitled to it. She said because he doesn't need it or the money. Well, true, but the same is true for me. Why don't I just take his car then? And his boat, and his 401k?

This is a woman who grew up with no wants, but also didn't have much. I think she has trouble being the first in her family to have a lot. My dad grew up with a wealthy father. He was given every leg up in the world, like me, but he wasn't given handouts. I think that those who are new to it can't tell the difference in a leg up and a handout. Don't put them in a position where they will think either is owed to them.
+1  The less people know about your money the better. My frustration with family is they make bad choices with their money, then have an emergency and call you to bail them out. I have family that inherited over 10,000, didn't hear a peep from them in four months until they blew thru the money with basically nothing to show for it and then called us up crying. This is another plus of having an old vehicle, I cry back with I'm sooo sorry but we don't have it I'm driving around in a old car that I just don't know when I'll get the chance to replace. We tell family as little as possible and keep everything under the radar. It just makes life easier. Hell, we even received an email from a cousin of hubby's asking for money ( I've met the woman once) and hubby isn't close to her.
We buy nice gifts for birthdays & Christmas for immediate family but have started to change that as well because why should we double or triple the value of presents just because our income has gone up. We've noticed a big shift in attitudes from family as a result of taking care of our money better than they do. I find it so funny that some of our family members can go out to eat 5-6 times a week and then cry at the end of the month that their broke. Seriously, we rarely eat dinner out, usually just on vacation and we save up any gift cards we get as gifts to help keep costs down.
It's sad because we bought nice furniture (Craig's list) maintain our things we own and buy nice clothes on clearance our family doesn't know how much $ we have but sees our environment and assumes we are rolling in dough. BTW, we never see a dime back from any money given to relatives but yet we will get phone calls needing more and then they will comment about going to eat less than two weeks later, pretty shitty if you ask me. We've had to develop thick skins where family is concerned or we would have nothing left of our money.
 







Dee 72013

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2015, 09:02:17 AM »
Do the cost/benefit analysis on telling someone your salary.

Potential costs:
-Jealousy (too high)
-Pity (too low)
-Hit you up for $$
-Expect certain lifestyle from you
-Criticise your spending decisons
-etc

Potential benefits:
-They're happy for you
-Ummm?

+1 We get comments about going on vacation  or things we have all the time so the criticizing our spending decisions is spot on. We tell family we'll be gone for x amount of days so they can reach us in an emergency but don't give many details about what were doing. We don't brag/boast about trips/things or money and try to avoid the conversation if the subject comes up but we go on a few cheap vacations every year and boy you'd think we were spending our family's money. We're empty nesters and plan/budget for these trips every year and seriously enjoy the hell out of them and we don't feel guilty for going either. We have yet to see a family member actually happy that we're not struggling :( 

2lazy2retire

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2015, 09:09:19 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

"Why no one is taking advantage" - simple, maternity leave, the big unknown scares people.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 09:13:36 AM by 2lazy2retire »

mtn

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2015, 09:19:58 AM »
Just another viewpoint to think about: my fiancé grew up in a family that income wise ranged from lower middle class to upper class and eventually falling down to lower middle class due to cost of living and income variations (as a political aside, aca is probably the worst thing to happen to that family other than the major bomb of ms). They live a life slightly ore lavish than ours; whereas they would call my dad cheap, it is the wrong word--he just is picky about what he spends his money on, so gets stickley furniture to last for fifty years instead of replacing it every ten.

It is interesting, but I just bought a product from my dad for $1100. That was a real sweetheart deal he made me, it is worth at least 500 more. I had earlier in the day sold two of those objects for about double what I paid my dad. And yet when I told my fiancés mom, she asked why didn't he just give it to me? I thought that was an interesting viewpoint. He had already given me another of these widgets worth about $3000 when I graduated college. And he gave me a car. And free room and board. Why should he just give me everything? I'm not entitled to it. She said because he doesn't need it or the money. Well, true, but the same is true for me. Why don't I just take his car then? And his boat, and his 401k?

This is a woman who grew up with no wants, but also didn't have much. I think she has trouble being the first in her family to have a lot. My dad grew up with a wealthy father. He was given every leg up in the world, like me, but he wasn't given handouts. I think that those who are new to it can't tell the difference in a leg up and a handout. Don't put them in a position where they will think either is owed to them.
+1  The less people know about your money the better. My frustration with family is they make bad choices with their money, then have an emergency and call you to bail them out. I have family that inherited over 10,000, didn't hear a peep from them in four months until they blew thru the money with basically nothing to show for it and then called us up crying. This is another plus of having an old vehicle, I cry back with I'm sooo sorry but we don't have it I'm driving around in a old car that I just don't know when I'll get the chance to replace. We tell family as little as possible and keep everything under the radar. It just makes life easier. Hell, we even received an email from a cousin of hubby's asking for money ( I've met the woman once) and hubby isn't close to her.
We buy nice gifts for birthdays & Christmas for immediate family but have started to change that as well because why should we double or triple the value of presents just because our income has gone up. We've noticed a big shift in attitudes from family as a result of taking care of our money better than they do. I find it so funny that some of our family members can go out to eat 5-6 times a week and then cry at the end of the month that their broke. Seriously, we rarely eat dinner out, usually just on vacation and we save up any gift cards we get as gifts to help keep costs down.
It's sad because we bought nice furniture (Craig's list) maintain our things we own and buy nice clothes on clearance our family doesn't know how much $ we have but sees our environment and assumes we are rolling in dough. BTW, we never see a dime back from any money given to relatives but yet we will get phone calls needing more and then they will comment about going to eat less than two weeks later, pretty shitty if you ask me. We've had to develop thick skins where family is concerned or we would have nothing left of our money.

Thankfully in my family, on both sides, they either manage their money well or have the income to make up for it--those that are living extremely un-mustachian lives will still retire extremely comfortably by 67 at the latest.

I wish that I had never told my fiance the ballpark figure of what my parents make. It probably ended up being the biggest issue that we have had in over 6.5 years of being together--jealousy, and indignation that my parents aren't chipping in more to the wedding. A wedding in which the only say that they wanted was the location (to a more convenient location for EVERYONE involved and for no more money).  A wedding in which MIL will not cut the guest list, and vetoed a few cheaper venues because of the way they looked, along with a buffet, or catered in sandwiches.

But my parents didn't buy a vacation home when they were 40, they're trying to do it now, when they're 60. They didn't go out to eat more than twice a month until after the kids left the house, as opposed to 4-7 times a month. We never went to Disney World or New York or Mexico. But because my dad earns more, it caused an instant jealousy. And that made me close to leaving her. We worked it out, but I still get a sick to my stomach feeling at that sense of entitlement. And I find it funny too, since she is a somewhat natural saver and definitely not spendthrift in any way.

Gin1984

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Re: Should you reveal your salary to friends/family?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2015, 09:22:56 AM »
I understand exactly what you guys are saying.  It's not that hard of a concept.  What I have difficulty understanding is why no one is taking advantage of this.  It's apparently a real, objective, measurable thing, and yet everyone still lets their bias blind them.  Why is no one taking advantage of that? I'm not saying everyone should, but out of millions of people shouldn't a lot of them be implementing this strategy? It's not small potatoes.  If you could implement this strategy and save 23% across the board on your labor costs (or really more like 12.5% assuming the average ratio is 50/50) why wouldn't you? The savings would be pure profit.

"Why no one is taking advantage" - simple, maternity leave, the big unknown scares people.

My husband's work has parental leave, not maternity leave with equal benefits for both genders.