Author Topic: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show  (Read 2030 times)

Log

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Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« on: April 18, 2023, 11:54:32 PM »
This new episode of the Ezra Klein Show with Sheila Liming piqued my interested as soon as I read the description. The loneliness epidemic is a perennial topic of discussion at this point that dates back at least to the famous "Bowling Alone" released in 2000. But we also know it's getting worse, especially for young people, since the advent of social media.

Spoiler: Scattered notes from the episode • show

—Two factors of isolation: time and space. People have such limited autonomy over their time that socializing first has to surpass the hurdle of coordinating calendars, and then people feel such pressure to "use time efficiently" that socializing is increasingly coordinated around an activity, rather than left unstructured. Public space has been diminished, and people have been literally spread out by suburban sprawl.
—We've culturally lost the "skills" involved in hanging out—Liming defines "hanging out" is "doing 'not much' with other people." Not putting expectations on what that time has to do or produce.
—Google Calendar invitations weeks in advance vs having the autonomy over time to enjoy spontaneity, to "improvise" socially.
—Living with roommates or extended family and just having people around all the time! Is the default of your life oriented towards community or towards private space (which is inherently isolating). Liming comments on sub-Reddits idealizing the notion of having a huge property miles away from any neighbors. "A lot of what it comes down to is fantasies of control—that it feels like we're more in control when we can say yes or no to certain kinds of interactions, whereas if we're living in close proximity with other people we have to cede control...about whether the dishes are dirty in the sink... but that itself comes with its own rewards... it reorients us towards other priorities: community," etc. etc..
—They recommend this Anne Helen Petersen article "You'd Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don't You?"
—Socioeconomic class dimension: the average adult in the US lives only 18 miles from their mother, 80% of US adults live less than 2 hours away... but if you have a college degree, you're much more likely to live further away from home. Richer people get more mobile and more atomized. People are promised that college will grant them more career opportunities, and then are acculturated to pursue those career opportunities far away, moving all around the country/world if needed.
—Liming describes the "itinerant lifestyle" necessary to succeed in academia (and many other fields), where you must learn an entirely new set of social skills in order to make friends quickly in new places. People who move around and don't learn those skills end up in this growing share of incredibly isolated people.
—Ezra describes how many of these norms of itinerancy are less destructive for one in their 20s without commitments to marriage or children, but become increasingly problematic after having children. Emphasis on the nuclear family plays a large role in atomization.
—"Chosen family" vs unchosen relationships with actual family—familial bonds can enforce a social connection even when things aren't perfect or easy.
—Single family zoning homogenizing housing options—more communal-oriented housing is often not even an available choice, even for those who might want it. Co-housing (smaller private spaces with shared amenities with other in the community) could generate more organic relationships with neighbors, but is not even an available option in many locations.
—College "the best years of your life!" So many people nostalgize college because they have this abundance of un-structured time and public spaces oriented for the ease of "hanging out." But the cultural pressure towards home-ownership in single family suburbs is the exact opposite of this environment that people loved!
—Ezra points out it should be obvious how suburban home ownership is a driver of atomization, but we don't tend to treat it that way. "We treat loneliness as a problem, but we don't really treat the social conditions that give rise to it as worthy of any real revision." Liming responds: "In American culture in particular, privacy and private space... are viewed as the basic ingredients for pride... It's [viewed as] difficult for you to achieve dignity or feel proud of yourself if you lack them."
—Ezra references "The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake" by David Brooks. More Americans are living in extended family households since the 1950-'65 era of the nuclear family, but we're still attached to the nuclear family as an ideal, even when it's not in line with reality. (I assume there's another correlation of socioeconomic class and college education at play here.)
—Hanging out with extended family can be a release from the claustrophobia of the nuclear family.
—Richer people "buy their way out of it." Out-sourcing childcare and household work can make up for the absence of extended family being around to share the load.
—Third places (between home and work) are particularly not accessible to the middle class. The rich outsource household tasks and can afford to go out. Poorer people and immigrant cultures often have more extended family support and access to community centers outside the house. But middle class people often try to emulate the lifestyle of the rich without enough resources to actually do so.
—In recent poll 79% of people aged 18 to 24 reported feeling lonely vs only 41% of seniors 66+. Can partially be attributed to the pandemic, but this trend pre-dated COVID.
—Young people on campuses all on their own phones and not talking to each other. Fear of the risk of starting a conversation with someone you don't know yet vs digitally interacting with someone you're already comfortable with. Substituting digital interactions for in-person is a partial explanation.
—Counter-productive behaviors cultivated online: 1) curating self-presentation on the internet, 2) easy to block or ignore someone you don't want to interact with anymore, or merely let a text conversation drift to an end.
—Distinguishing between working through anger with someone you do want to have an on-going relationship with, vs simply cutting off someone you're "done" with. The latter is much easier online, and then trickles into real-world interpersonal conflict.
—Walking around with headphones is a relatively recent invention in human history, and still going up rapidly. Headphone use as a response to intentionally avoid undesired interactions (I am definitely guilty of this—grabbing my headphones when I go out for a walk is completely reflexive for me at this point.)
—Social norms around talking to strangers in public have changed rapidly—Ezra comments on noticeable reduction in "normal, neighborly interaction" within his adulthood. The idea that interacting with a stranger in public is an unwelcome intrusion has become rapidly normalized.
—Ezra: "...changing attitude towards social risk, particularly for children... a lot of parents seem to have defaulted into an almost terror of social awkwardness, misbehavior, or danger for their children, which seems to be contributing to this much larger danger of terrible teen mental health and self-harm."
—Liming: "Awkwardness is part of our emotional landscape, there's no real way to avoid it... I think the idea of shielding a kid, or anybody else, from awkwardness is itself sort of silly, because that awkwardness is just going to take place all the same under different circumstances."
—The workplace as one of the few remaining places to "hang out," now on the decline due to work from home normalization. Having friends at work (obviously) enhances the experience of the work. Even hybrid work setups can have a cost in terms of long-term relationships with co-workers.
—For this college-educated itinerant class, work friends were often the first friends in a new place. The atomization of the workplace (including hybrid setups, where you may see your coworkers in person sometimes, but don't have nearly as aligned of a schedule) can have the worst consequences for new workers—the very young people having the most social problems right now.
—So many isolating behaviors (suburban home, headphones, work from home) are protective of annoyances and inconveniences, but have long-term consequences we don't reckon enough with.
—Considering value of various means of communication: the lost intimacy of letter-writing, newer trend of communicating in voice messages. How much time teens used to spend talking to each other on the phone before the ubiquity of texting. Video calls feel worse than audio-only?


As one of the mentioned college-educated, rootless, young people (and just recently out of that 18-24 demographic) this has been kind of the water I swim in for the last few years. I think it would be hard to overstate how dramatic the shift has been to where spontaneous interactions with strangers are unwelcome. And for a lot of younger people, these new norms are all we've known in our adult lives.

Atomization is the cultural norm (at least for the college-educated knowledge worker) in moving away from family, housing options, work-from-home, the ubiquity of wearing headphones in public, and the use of cell phones as a way to appear occupied with something in public situations that use to welcome casual small talk.

All my parents' siblings on both sides are middle class, college-educated boomers, and they got spread all throughout the country. One side of my family ended up largely re-converging around where my parents moved, but spread widely throughout the suburban sprawl of a mid-size metro, so they serve as a real case study of the atomization generated by the emphasis on the nuclear family and suburban sprawl.

I'm sure most members of the forums have lived through a lot more of these transitions of norms and technology than I have, I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts and reactions on this podcast in particular, or to the broader topic of rising atomization and loneliness. Has anyone read the book?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 11:58:58 PM by Log »

Metalcat

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2023, 08:25:31 AM »
I'm really fascinated by this weird drive people seem to have to isolate themselves from others and then struggle intensely from loneliness.

It's really freaky to watch, I have to say.

I find making friends extremely easy, and I'm always finding ways to recreate that university "hangout" culture.

But I'm increasingly finding that I need to compensate for people's weirdness about connecting. Like, no matter how clear I make it that I *want* to spend time with them, they feel insecure about imposing on my time.

I'm finding that people no longer assume that anyone would *want* to spend time with them unless it's productive or exciting. Like, there's a pressure to bring some value to the table in order to feel worthy of someone else's precious time.

People don't feel like just existing is enough anymore to warrant someone wanting to spend a lot of ongoing time with them.

erp

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2023, 08:48:18 AM »
I listened to this recently too and thought it was extremely relevant.

One of the things that has been really useful to me when thinking about 'hangouts' is to think about a hangout as a place, rather than time with people. By and large, a group of people will end up in the same area and the population might be variable and might not be. Examples:
-climbing gym, but on regular days and times. If you're around for a month then you'll start to recognize the same folks and chat. If you're around for 4 months they'll be your friends (and then you'll start organizing/getting invited to trips outside/hiking events/beer afterwards/a particularly unexpected week long trip to Moab).
-community gardens, again, on a regular schedule. Before long, someone's going to ask you something, or to water their things next week cause they're out, or whatever.
-When I was young, this was also kind of true of bars/university pubs. Since I spent enough time with people in classes/labs/etc, I could go to a location where people were and end up recognizing someone. I'm decades out from that now, so it's much less useful - but maybe it works for you?
-I'm currently trying the same with book clubs and running clubs, but it's too new to tell how that's going.

The big thing for me, as a kind of cranky male bodied person, is that you need to put in a bunch of face time somewhere being cheerful, competent and not creepy. That month or two of showing up somewhere is how you demonstrate that you're not going to immediately do something that puts other people at risk or makes them uncomfortable. And since you're doing something difficult already, people get to passively see you. At the same time, you'll learn what the norms of the space are - maybe in this particular climbing gym there's a lot of cheering, or maybe you give quiet congratulations when someone does something hard. If you can learn those norms, then you'll 'belong' - between being recognized and behaving like you belong, people will be way more open to hanging out.

One thing that I'm curious about, but haven't really been able to implement (pandemic and all) is having a 1/mo. 'open house' timeslot for friends. People who know can just show up. Maybe we'll eat snacks, make food, play board games, garden. Just a "I'm around, come by whenever" kind of culture might open up a lot of possibilities.

Kris

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2023, 08:55:23 AM »
I listened to this recently too and thought it was extremely relevant.

One of the things that has been really useful to me when thinking about 'hangouts' is to think about a hangout as a place, rather than time with people. By and large, a group of people will end up in the same area and the population might be variable and might not be. Examples:
-climbing gym, but on regular days and times. If you're around for a month then you'll start to recognize the same folks and chat. If you're around for 4 months they'll be your friends (and then you'll start organizing/getting invited to trips outside/hiking events/beer afterwards/a particularly unexpected week long trip to Moab).
-community gardens, again, on a regular schedule. Before long, someone's going to ask you something, or to water their things next week cause they're out, or whatever.
-When I was young, this was also kind of true of bars/university pubs. Since I spent enough time with people in classes/labs/etc, I could go to a location where people were and end up recognizing someone. I'm decades out from that now, so it's much less useful - but maybe it works for you?
-I'm currently trying the same with book clubs and running clubs, but it's too new to tell how that's going.

The big thing for me, as a kind of cranky male bodied person, is that you need to put in a bunch of face time somewhere being cheerful, competent and not creepy. That month or two of showing up somewhere is how you demonstrate that you're not going to immediately do something that puts other people at risk or makes them uncomfortable. And since you're doing something difficult already, people get to passively see you. At the same time, you'll learn what the norms of the space are - maybe in this particular climbing gym there's a lot of cheering, or maybe you give quiet congratulations when someone does something hard. If you can learn those norms, then you'll 'belong' - between being recognized and behaving like you belong, people will be way more open to hanging out.

One thing that I'm curious about, but haven't really been able to implement (pandemic and all) is having a 1/mo. 'open house' timeslot for friends. People who know can just show up. Maybe we'll eat snacks, make food, play board games, garden. Just a "I'm around, come by whenever" kind of culture might open up a lot of possibilities.

Riffing off of this, I recently (January) joined a gym that only does classes, i.e., no one goes there to just shove their ear buds in their ears and work out. This gym does a lot of conscious community-building, and they've created a dynamic wherein it is not only encouraged but expected for members to welcome newcomers, throw out fist-bumps at the end of hard sets, etc. This has become my "third space." And I'm surprised how much I love it, and how much, even as an introvert, I feel richer for having it.

It is somewhat strange/sad that I've had to pay for the pleasure of having a third space. And of course, there are third spaces where one does not have to pay, but most of the ones I know of are not attractive to me (like church). But I'm still very grateful and aware of how good this has been for me.

erp

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2023, 10:07:11 AM »
...

It is somewhat strange/sad that I've had to pay for the pleasure of having a third space. And of course, there are third spaces where one does not have to pay, but most of the ones I know of are not attractive to me (like church). But I'm still very grateful and aware of how good this has been for me.

I agree about the weirdness of needing to pay for these spaces - I don't love it. I think that when you have a relatively stable friend group it's not too hard to shift to a free environment (bbq's or board games at someone's house) - but when you're still meeting new people introducing a house can be tricky.

One of the nicest things which has happened in my life recently is that several of my friends all bought houses in the same neighbourhood - so it's (relatively) easy to bike through the negihbourhood and see if anyone's kicking around gardening or playing with kids. Of course, buying a house isn't 'free' either ... but building a culture of informal community is way easier if the space piece is better controlled.

simonsez

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2023, 11:11:02 AM »
I'm really fascinated by this weird drive people seem to have to isolate themselves from others and then struggle intensely from loneliness.

It's really freaky to watch, I have to say.

I find making friends extremely easy, and I'm always finding ways to recreate that university "hangout" culture.

But I'm increasingly finding that I need to compensate for people's weirdness about connecting. Like, no matter how clear I make it that I *want* to spend time with them, they feel insecure about imposing on my time.

I'm finding that people no longer assume that anyone would *want* to spend time with them unless it's productive or exciting. Like, there's a pressure to bring some value to the table in order to feel worthy of someone else's precious time.

People don't feel like just existing is enough anymore to warrant someone wanting to spend a lot of ongoing time with them.
I've had two different friends in the past year (same metro area moving from one place to another) deny me for trying to help them move.  I have boxes, I have good containers with lids, I have moving straps, I have dollies and hand trucks, etc.  My only rule is I don't want to sift through your stuff.  I'm happy to load already packed boxes and furniture, drive, and unload all day long.  I work from home and love a good excuse to get out and do something non-sedentary.  They didn't want to "put me out" so they just hired expensive movers and then we didn't hang out at all for several weeks because they were busy with the move. womp womp

It's really weird.  I'm trying to find excuses to be with friends (sure, I'd love to come hangout with your kids or attend one of their sporting/school events or help run some errands or help with a DIY house project, etc.) and these bizarre barriers keep getting put up about not wanting to inconvenience me.  Like, I AM part of your network, please use me!  It's mutually beneficial, I promise!  I'm an adult, I wouldn't be friends with you if I didn't want to hang out!  Everyone know I'm a direct non-flaky person, I wouldn't offer to help if I didn't mean it.

I did help another friend/couple move and it was fantastic!  Felt good to use some muscles, we got to chat for several hours, they saved some money, and we finished a little earlier than they were expecting so we were rewarded with some adult beverages and enjoyed the afternoon.

wageslave23

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2023, 12:33:12 PM »
I'm really fascinated by this weird drive people seem to have to isolate themselves from others and then struggle intensely from loneliness.

It's really freaky to watch, I have to say.

I find making friends extremely easy, and I'm always finding ways to recreate that university "hangout" culture.

But I'm increasingly finding that I need to compensate for people's weirdness about connecting. Like, no matter how clear I make it that I *want* to spend time with them, they feel insecure about imposing on my time.

I'm finding that people no longer assume that anyone would *want* to spend time with them unless it's productive or exciting. Like, there's a pressure to bring some value to the table in order to feel worthy of someone else's precious time.

People don't feel like just existing is enough anymore to warrant someone wanting to spend a lot of ongoing time with them.
I've had two different friends in the past year (same metro area moving from one place to another) deny me for trying to help them move.  I have boxes, I have good containers with lids, I have moving straps, I have dollies and hand trucks, etc.  My only rule is I don't want to sift through your stuff.  I'm happy to load already packed boxes and furniture, drive, and unload all day long.  I work from home and love a good excuse to get out and do something non-sedentary.  They didn't want to "put me out" so they just hired expensive movers and then we didn't hang out at all for several weeks because they were busy with the move. womp womp

It's really weird.  I'm trying to find excuses to be with friends (sure, I'd love to come hangout with your kids or attend one of their sporting/school events or help run some errands or help with a DIY house project, etc.) and these bizarre barriers keep getting put up about not wanting to inconvenience me.  Like, I AM part of your network, please use me!  It's mutually beneficial, I promise!  I'm an adult, I wouldn't be friends with you if I didn't want to hang out!  Everyone know I'm a direct non-flaky person, I wouldn't offer to help if I didn't mean it.

I did help another friend/couple move and it was fantastic!  Felt good to use some muscles, we got to chat for several hours, they saved some money, and we finished a little earlier than they were expecting so we were rewarded with some adult beverages and enjoyed the afternoon.

Don't take it personally.  They probably just didn't want the hassle of having to help you help them. It's easier just to hire movers and I stand by this advice to anyone that's 30 and older.

wageslave23

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2023, 12:38:00 PM »
I think part of this is if you have kids or not. Before kids, if I wasn't working or at the gym, then I was free to hangout. Now with a wife and a small child, everything is scheduled. It really sucks but it's a necessity.  I have a small window of time for everything and it's planned out at least a couple days in advance.  All around work schedules, eating schedules, sleeping schedules, and babysitter schedules.  I find it really annoying when someone disrupts the schedule.

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2023, 12:48:08 PM »
I think part of this is if you have kids or not. Before kids, if I wasn't working or at the gym, then I was free to hangout. Now with a wife and a small child, everything is scheduled. It really sucks but it's a necessity.  I have a small window of time for everything and it's planned out at least a couple days in advance.  All around work schedules, eating schedules, sleeping schedules, and babysitter schedules.  I find it really annoying when someone disrupts the schedule.

I work my way into parents' schedules in order to maintain friendships with them. I have one friend who I exclusively see on weeknights and we make dinner together for her kids and do bathtime and bedtime routine together, and then we chat for a bit and then I leave.

This is the only socializing we've done for the past 5 years because as a partner at a law firm and that's literally all she had time for. I have another parent I sometimes go grocery shopping with. It's easier for her to have another person to help wrangle the kids. Often I won't even shop for myself, I'll just help her do her shopping, and sometimes we'll then bulk cook together.

It takes A LOT for me to convince people that I'm willing to be friends with them within the limited time and opportunities that they have. Most of them can't fathom that I'm willing to fit into their lives, engaging in their inconveniences, just to spend time with them.

Once they finally get over the self consciousness and self doubt, it's great. We have a ton of fun.

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2023, 01:03:08 PM »
This is one reason DH and I want to eventually move to a large 55+ community.  The one my parents are in is fantastic, but a location that I worry about from a climate/climate-change perspective so IDK if that will be where we land, but I hope it will be similar. 

There are people from age 55 (or younger, if they are married to a 55+) to 90+.  The community is large enough that there are many, many interest groups, so theres something for everyone.  One time during a visit when I went to the gym, I walked past the room where the tap dance group was practicing for an upcoming performance.  My mom tried (and disliked, lol) belly dancing.  There's a model train club and a carpentry group (with a large selection of equipment that is open to members) and a jewelry making group and multiple tennis and pickleball clubs. Model trains?  Computer repair?  Sewing?  There's a group for that.

Mom had never made jewelry, but now teachers a once a month beading class where they complete a specific project together.  I think she may also teach the beginner's class where they learn all the basic construction techniques. 

In some cases, like the Beading Club, they get together and do an activity.  In others, it just people with some similar background that get together socially once a month. 

Then there are informal groups, which are hard to come by.  My parents are especially social.  They once had a "people we met walking the dog" party.  Every few months, they invited what they cal the "harem" over.  This is a group of widows (my dad is the only guy).  Every other week, they have a rotating happy hour with a few neighbors.  These interactions would likely be harder for my introverted self to make happen, but might be possible.

I thin these built in groups make it easier to break into something, and the fact that most of the have a project focus gives something to guide conversation, and a shared challenge, at least initially. 

I think these communities, or similar concepts, are a great idea.  Sadly, in most cases there's nothing similar for people who aren't 55+, but someone could try to create that, on a smaller scale.  Take a pottery class at a local community center or find a community garden  Or suck it up and knock on the doors of a handful of neighbors and see if they want to sit in your driveway one night with camping chairs and enjoy drinks, chips, and conversation for an hour or so before bedtime.

Raenia

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2023, 01:24:46 PM »
Pre-COVID, one of our friends held a weekly game night at his place, open invitation, anyone was free to drop by and hang, get food, and play some games. The times we made it were great, lots of fun with a rotating cast of people each time. Unfortunately, the reality of a 45 min bus ride each way meant we didn't go very often. Plus it was on a work night, so getting back late could be a problem for us.

Now, as our friends have spread further apart through the city, it's even harder to do informal hangouts. When everyone is a 30-45 min drive/train/bus from everyone else, the reality is you can't just pop over to see if they're free. They might not be home, then you've wasted an hour. Even casual get-togethers require phone calls, planning, scheduling, ETA's.

I'm hopeful that once we move into our new house close to the train station and the suburb where some friends live, we'll be able to have more regular social interaction with both the city friends, and the suburb ones. On the other hand, once we have the baby, I'm sure it's going to get 10x worse. We've also been working at having regular dinners with one couple that's closer to our planned life path - most of our friends don't plan on kids, and while there are definitely exceptions, most childless-by-choice folks aren't interested in contorting their lives to accommodate parent friends. If they were, they'd probably also have been more accommodating of coming to visit us in the suburbs also, which definitely hasn't been the case. Here's hoping some of our friends stick by us when our lives explode!

Also, firmly agree about not having friends help you move. We all did it for the first few years after college, but after the first time we paid pros to do it, I'm never going back. It's so much less work, much faster, less chance of someone damaging something (and if they do, less guilt about it, they have insurance!). Managing a carful of friends for the better part of the day is something I will cheerfully pay to never do again.

wageslave23

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2023, 02:18:57 PM »
I think part of this is if you have kids or not. Before kids, if I wasn't working or at the gym, then I was free to hangout. Now with a wife and a small child, everything is scheduled. It really sucks but it's a necessity.  I have a small window of time for everything and it's planned out at least a couple days in advance.  All around work schedules, eating schedules, sleeping schedules, and babysitter schedules.  I find it really annoying when someone disrupts the schedule.

I work my way into parents' schedules in order to maintain friendships with them. I have one friend who I exclusively see on weeknights and we make dinner together for her kids and do bathtime and bedtime routine together, and then we chat for a bit and then I leave.

This is the only socializing we've done for the past 5 years because as a partner at a law firm and that's literally all she had time for. I have another parent I sometimes go grocery shopping with. It's easier for her to have another person to help wrangle the kids. Often I won't even shop for myself, I'll just help her do her shopping, and sometimes we'll then bulk cook together.

It takes A LOT for me to convince people that I'm willing to be friends with them within the limited time and opportunities that they have. Most of them can't fathom that I'm willing to fit into their lives, engaging in their inconveniences, just to spend time with them.

Once they finally get over the self consciousness and self doubt, it's great. We have a ton of fun.

You sound like a great friend. Those are perfect examples of how to be friends with busy, often overwhelmed people.

Log

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2023, 02:37:45 PM »
...But I'm increasingly finding that I need to compensate for people's weirdness about connecting. Like, no matter how clear I make it that I *want* to spend time with them, they feel insecure about imposing on my time.

I'm finding that people no longer assume that anyone would *want* to spend time with them unless it's productive or exciting. Like, there's a pressure to bring some value to the table in order to feel worthy of someone else's precious time.

People don't feel like just existing is enough anymore to warrant someone wanting to spend a lot of ongoing time with them...

Yes!! This captures exactly something I hadn't quite put to words yet.

The art of the "hangout" is so dependent on going from setting to setting and just turning one scheduled gathering into spending a whole day or a whole evening together. And yet so many gatherings get scheduled around a particularly activity, and at the end of that particular activity you get some version of:
A: "So, what are you doing for the rest of the day?"
B: "Oh not much, [not particularly urgent task here and there]. How about you?"
A: "Oh yeah, [same kind of stuff]."
B: "Well, bye!"

I mean you mention scheduling around people with children and long working hours, but I'm a musician in my 20s! We all have nothing but time! But it's still like this game of chicken of always assuming that the other person has some super valuable thing to do with their time that you shouldn't impose upon... even though you're probably both going to go home and kill time with some kind of social media (and then maybe practice a little bit).

It's definitely a byproduct of the increasing sense of rush and urgency in everything we do/conceiving of time as a resource.

Villanelle

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2023, 02:44:53 PM »
Pre-COVID, one of our friends held a weekly game night at his place, open invitation, anyone was free to drop by and hang, get food, and play some games. The times we made it were great, lots of fun with a rotating cast of people each time. Unfortunately, the reality of a 45 min bus ride each way meant we didn't go very often. Plus it was on a work night, so getting back late could be a problem for us.

Now, as our friends have spread further apart through the city, it's even harder to do informal hangouts. When everyone is a 30-45 min drive/train/bus from everyone else, the reality is you can't just pop over to see if they're free. They might not be home, then you've wasted an hour. Even casual get-togethers require phone calls, planning, scheduling, ETA's.

I'm hopeful that once we move into our new house close to the train station and the suburb where some friends live, we'll be able to have more regular social interaction with both the city friends, and the suburb ones. On the other hand, once we have the baby, I'm sure it's going to get 10x worse. We've also been working at having regular dinners with one couple that's closer to our planned life path - most of our friends don't plan on kids, and while there are definitely exceptions, most childless-by-choice folks aren't interested in contorting their lives to accommodate parent friends. If they were, they'd probably also have been more accommodating of coming to visit us in the suburbs also, which definitely hasn't been the case. Here's hoping some of our friends stick by us when our lives explode!

Also, firmly agree about not having friends help you move. We all did it for the first few years after college, but after the first time we paid pros to do it, I'm never going back. It's so much less work, much faster, less chance of someone damaging something (and if they do, less guilt about it, they have insurance!). Managing a carful of friends for the better part of the day is something I will cheerfully pay to never do again.

Don't write off your child-free friends entirely.  I'd likely put more effort into hanging out with a friend and their baby than I would to traveling a long distance to see them.  I don't have kids, but I've definitely attended play dates at the park and hung out and held a baby (which I find a little terrifying) so an exhausted mom friend could get a shower, and watched TV  or chatted with mom while the newborn snoozed near by.  I've attended 3rd birthday parties and read bedtime stories and played with trucks.  Because I wanted to se my friends, and I wanted to pitch in during a difficult (but exciting) time in their lives.  The relationships were well worth it to me.  I feel like I had to work extra hard to prove that (which was sometimes annoying or frustrating) because they just assumed I wasn't interested so they didn't invite me, or they bent over backward to make it easy to say no, almost to the point of trying to talk me out of it.  Once we got over that and they realized I wanted to see them, even if that meant eating dinner with them and their kid at 5p and then helping with after dinner routines, I didn't have to beg to see them anymore, and things were great.

So invite your child-free friends.  Sure, you can toss in an , "I understand if this isn't how you want to send your Saturday afternoon" if you don't want them to feel pressured.  But leave it at that.  The are adults who can say no if they aren't interested.  Don't make assumptions..Maybe some of them won't be interested, which is fine.  But some of them might.  Don't make that decision for them. 

Your child-free friends may just play a mean game of Dump Truck.  I am an *amazing* bedtime story reader. 

Raenia

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2023, 03:52:26 PM »
Don't write off your child-free friends entirely.  I'd likely put more effort into hanging out with a friend and their baby than I would to traveling a long distance to see them.  I don't have kids, but I've definitely attended play dates at the park and hung out and held a baby (which I find a little terrifying) so an exhausted mom friend could get a shower, and watched TV  or chatted with mom while the newborn snoozed near by.  I've attended 3rd birthday parties and read bedtime stories and played with trucks.  Because I wanted to se my friends, and I wanted to pitch in during a difficult (but exciting) time in their lives.  The relationships were well worth it to me.  I feel like I had to work extra hard to prove that (which was sometimes annoying or frustrating) because they just assumed I wasn't interested so they didn't invite me, or they bent over backward to make it easy to say no, almost to the point of trying to talk me out of it.  Once we got over that and they realized I wanted to see them, even if that meant eating dinner with them and their kid at 5p and then helping with after dinner routines, I didn't have to beg to see them anymore, and things were great.

So invite your child-free friends.  Sure, you can toss in an , "I understand if this isn't how you want to send your Saturday afternoon" if you don't want them to feel pressured.  But leave it at that.  The are adults who can say no if they aren't interested.  Don't make assumptions..Maybe some of them won't be interested, which is fine.  But some of them might.  Don't make that decision for them. 

Your child-free friends may just play a mean game of Dump Truck.  I am an *amazing* bedtime story reader.

Definitely not writing them off, but not having expectations either. After all, they'll still have to travel, and if they won't do it now, I don't see why that would change. Cutting from a 30 minute train ride to a 20 minute one with a walk instead of a pick-up at the end isn't that much of a difference. If the relationship isn't strong enough for them to put effort into seeing us now, I can't expect a baby to make them more willing to put forth effort. It's already almost always me planning get-togethers, and I just won't have time to do all the planning.

Villanelle

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2023, 04:03:39 PM »
Don't write off your child-free friends entirely.  I'd likely put more effort into hanging out with a friend and their baby than I would to traveling a long distance to see them.  I don't have kids, but I've definitely attended play dates at the park and hung out and held a baby (which I find a little terrifying) so an exhausted mom friend could get a shower, and watched TV  or chatted with mom while the newborn snoozed near by.  I've attended 3rd birthday parties and read bedtime stories and played with trucks.  Because I wanted to se my friends, and I wanted to pitch in during a difficult (but exciting) time in their lives.  The relationships were well worth it to me.  I feel like I had to work extra hard to prove that (which was sometimes annoying or frustrating) because they just assumed I wasn't interested so they didn't invite me, or they bent over backward to make it easy to say no, almost to the point of trying to talk me out of it.  Once we got over that and they realized I wanted to see them, even if that meant eating dinner with them and their kid at 5p and then helping with after dinner routines, I didn't have to beg to see them anymore, and things were great.

So invite your child-free friends.  Sure, you can toss in an , "I understand if this isn't how you want to send your Saturday afternoon" if you don't want them to feel pressured.  But leave it at that.  The are adults who can say no if they aren't interested.  Don't make assumptions..Maybe some of them won't be interested, which is fine.  But some of them might.  Don't make that decision for them. 

Your child-free friends may just play a mean game of Dump Truck.  I am an *amazing* bedtime story reader.

Definitely not writing them off, but not having expectations either. After all, they'll still have to travel, and if they won't do it now, I don't see why that would change. Cutting from a 30 minute train ride to a 20 minute one with a walk instead of a pick-up at the end isn't that much of a difference. If the relationship isn't strong enough for them to put effort into seeing us now, I can't expect a baby to make them more willing to put forth effort. It's already almost always me planning get-togethers, and I just won't have time to do all the planning.

I agree with this.  It sounds like the relationships aren't particularly strong and were already drifting away or they had other friends with whom they felt more connected.  Maybe the baby will provide new opportunities for you to meet new people and connect. 

Metalcat

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2023, 04:36:32 PM »
Your child-free friends may just play a mean game of Dump Truck.  I am an *amazing* bedtime story reader.

I snort laughed at this. One of the last times I visited a friend in Toronto I spent literally *hours* playing Dump Truck with her 5 year old. Except in his mind dump trucks poured cement. We were building roads with dump trucks full of cement.

It should be noted that I have no interest in children and would happily avoid them all until they're at least 12 years old, 14 for boys. I don't play with my friend's kids because I just *love* being auntie Malcat. Fuck no. I just know that playing with kids is the cost of admission for being friends with folks who have kids and jobs, and I have tons of professional experience with kids so I'm really good with them. But I barely know my friend's kids names and couldn't possibly tell you their ages, lol.

I love my friends though and I'm very invested in their experience as parents because it's a huge part of their lives, so I'm happy to be involved.

Once their kids are teens then I finally recognize them as autonomous humans that I might want to actively get to know. Until then, they're just units of work that I help manage.

getsorted

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Re: Sheila Liming on "Hanging Out" on Ezra Klein Show
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2023, 05:15:50 PM »
Very interesting post. Having lived that nomadic academic life for over a decade, it's definitely harder in some places than others. Midwestern reserve is real and hard to overcome.

Another structural issue for parents is parental leave. In the UK, I could take my 3-year-old to a different playgroup every morning all week and have time chatting with other parents and forming friendships. In the US, my parent friends were people I chatted with for five or 10 minutes as we did the day care drop-off, and maybe, if we all weren't too exhausted, met with at the park or the library on a Saturday.

Making friends has been harder now, having returned to my home area and family, because I'm not religious (anymore) and have the Wrong Politics, and we don't have that convenient thing here like they do in England where you never breathe a word to anyone about any of those things. A coworker was telling me recently about throwing a neighborhood event and having two different people spontaneously go on racist rants to her. I excused myself from a local single moms Facebook group because it was so overwhelmingly Christian that any post I made could turn into a prayer meeting at any time. When you live in a place where extremism is the norm, there's just a lot more sifting through to find your people. Moreover, extremism breeds extremism-- for the first time in my life, I find myself in circles where I am told I'm not lefty enough!).

That said, I bought a house in a more urban area, and on a dead-end street, so kids are out playing and neighbors are out talking every day. That's been a balm to the soul, but it's been surprisingly difficult to make anything stick or really get close with anyone this time around.

Wearing headphones doesn't seem to stop anyone from talking to me, though. If I'm running or walking the dog on our walking trail, people will stop me to ask what I'm listening to!

I long for unstructured time with close friends. Especially because I find board games almost intolerable. Can't we just, like... hang out??

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!