Author Topic: Senate votes to repeal ACA  (Read 48678 times)

FIRE me

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #150 on: January 07, 2017, 02:26:30 PM »
Quote
If they come up with a system that is better than the ACA, this is perfectly fine with me.

Obama agrees with you. 

Quote
I've also heard a lot of talk about getting rid of medicare as well.  If I was over 65 I'd be socking a lot of money away for healthcare now just in case. :(

Nah, it's the gen Xrs and millennials that are going to get screwed, because they will hollow out medicare for people not on it by capping lifetime premiums.  The boomers want nothing more than to screw over their kids and grandkids apparently while living off the dole in their dotage.

Ageism much?

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #151 on: January 07, 2017, 02:31:51 PM »
I think larger states will probably keep their requirements +/- individual mandates (like Massachusetts' system pre-ACA). California and New York come to mind, and have large enough pools to pay for it. The smaller states will likely have to band together. The states opposed to ACA will just have crap health insurance options again.

I'm not so sure, both have some real problems coming soon with their public pensions, and neither is going to get any kind of bailout from the federal government over the next 4 years, and stand even odds of getting cuts in the federal programs they do benefit from.  And Massachusetts's state version of the ACA was on the edge of imploding before the ACA came along.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #152 on: January 07, 2017, 02:34:49 PM »
Quidnon, do you believe that repealing Obamacare will give you back your medical privacy?

Not likely, that ship has permanently sailed, because the data is out there.  But I might be able to preserve the idea of privacy for the next generation.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #153 on: January 07, 2017, 02:46:49 PM »
How about we do that, the rest of us keep ACA and those who don't want sign up to NEVER get medical care.  You get a tattoo that says don't treat and we just throw you in the walk in fridge with the corpses if you are not conscious.

I'm fine with that, if those who wish to keep it pay for all of it among themselves.  Since that is practically impossible for a variety of reasons, which is one reason that the ACA is structured the way that it is, I think we both know that would never happen.

And I think you should get a tattoo that says "property of the state". and someplace much more visible.  Say across your forehead.

bacchi

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #154 on: January 07, 2017, 05:54:13 PM »
Maybe the solution *is* to make it state based.   Give each state $x and let them either use that to provide healthcare for their residents or use it to build walls or whatever.

Then see how things work out.

Only if the moocher states stop being moochers. Let 'em sink by their own choices and tax revenue.

Top ten moochers:

    Mississippi, 42.9% federal aid as percentage of general revenue.
    Louisiana, 41.9%
    Tennessee, 39.5%
    South Dakota, 39.0%
    Missouri, 38.2%
    Montana, 37.4%
    Georgia, 37.3%
    New Mexico, 36.6%
    Alabama, 36.1%
    Maine, 35.3%

Yeah, 8.5 out of 10 of those states have something in common.

RentSeeking

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #155 on: January 07, 2017, 09:22:24 PM »
Quote from: mathlete link=topic=66518.msg1367606#msg1367606 date=
.......The American people don't generally respond well to the government telling them how to live. Michelle Obama's big mission from the start was tackling childhood obesity......
Result ~0.

  Pokemon Go, result, zillions of kids WALKING semi-aimlessly in parks etc.

Nonsense. You might not be aware of the impact, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote
Schools across the country are serving whole grain pasta, breads and pizza along with far more fruits and vegetables. A massive food assistance program for poor mothers and children now doles out more money each month for produce. Soon the government will finalize the first-ever revamp of the Nutrition Facts label that appears on all packaged food, perhaps the most reproduced piece of graphic design in the world.

The first lady has also pulled along the private sector, nudging them to make substantial changes that most people will never associate with her. America’s largest food and beverage manufacturers cut 6.4 trillion calories out of the food supply, in part by tweaking their recipes. Olive Garden and Red Lobster swapped fruits and vegetables in for fries on kids’ menus; Walmart cut back on sodium.

http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/03/michelle-obama-healthy-eating-school-lunch-food-policy-000066


markbike528CBX

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #156 on: January 07, 2017, 10:44:04 PM »
Quote from: mathlete link=topic=66518.msg1367606#msg1367606 date=
.......The American people don't generally respond well to the government telling them how to live. Michelle Obama's big mission from the start was tackling childhood obesity......
Result ~0.

  Pokemon Go, result, zillions of kids WALKING semi-aimlessly in parks etc.

Nonsense. You might not be aware of the impact, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Quote
Schools across the country are serving whole grain pasta, breads and pizza along with far more fruits and vegetables. A massive food assistance program for poor mothers and children now doles out more money each month for produce. Soon the government will finalize the first-ever revamp of the Nutrition Facts label that appears on all packaged food, perhaps the most reproduced piece of graphic design in the world.

The first lady has also pulled along the private sector, nudging them to make substantial changes that most people will never associate with her. America’s largest food and beverage manufacturers cut 6.4 trillion calories out of the food supply, in part by tweaking their recipes. Olive Garden and Red Lobster swapped fruits and vegetables in for fries on kids’ menus; Walmart cut back on sodium.

http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/03/michelle-obama-healthy-eating-school-lunch-food-policy-000066

Acknowledged : disclaimer, I have no kids/ grandkids in the affected age group,    however, my observations are 1st hand and not political foo-foo.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2017, 12:57:33 AM »
How about we do that, the rest of us keep ACA and those who don't want sign up to NEVER get medical care.  You get a tattoo that says don't treat and we just throw you in the walk in fridge with the corpses if you are not conscious.

I'm fine with that, if those who wish to keep it pay for all of it among themselves.  Since that is practically impossible for a variety of reasons, which is one reason that the ACA is structured the way that it is, I think we both know that would never happen.

I love how the only options are ACA as implemented or No Medical Care, ever. I mean, seriously..

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2017, 12:59:07 AM »
In Trump's 60 Minute interview in Nov. he states that repeal and replace will happen at the same time.
Don't worry Trumpcare will be fantastic, fabulous even.
----
Lesley Stahl: And there’s going to be a period if you repeal it and before you replace it, when millions of people could lose -– no?

Donald Trump: No, we’re going to do it simultaneously. It’ll be just fine. We’re not going to have, like, a two-day period and we’re not going to have a two-year period where there’s nothing. It will be repealed and replaced. And we’ll know. And it’ll be great health care for much less money. So it’ll be better health care, much better, for less money. Not a bad combination.
----
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-donald-trump-family-melania-ivanka-lesley-stahl/

What Trump wants and what congress can agree on are probably two very different things.

Gin1984

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2017, 06:32:08 AM »
How about we do that, the rest of us keep ACA and those who don't want sign up to NEVER get medical care.  You get a tattoo that says don't treat and we just throw you in the walk in fridge with the corpses if you are not conscious.

I'm fine with that, if those who wish to keep it pay for all of it among themselves.  Since that is practically impossible for a variety of reasons, which is one reason that the ACA is structured the way that it is, I think we both know that would never happen.

I love how the only options are ACA as implemented or No Medical Care, ever. I mean, seriously..
For many people who have pre-existing conditions those are the two options, the fact that you can ignore that means you are not paying attention.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2017, 08:32:24 AM »
I love how the only options are ACA as implemented or No Medical Care, ever. I mean, seriously..
No kidding, its not an honest conversation....



Iplawyer

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2017, 08:42:56 AM »
I love how the only options are ACA as implemented or No Medical Care, ever. I mean, seriously..
No kidding, its not an honest conversation....

Really - nobody says that ACA should stand without modification.  I haven't heard anybody here say that.  And for many of us - without ACA we could not get insurance.  What is your beef with that?

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2017, 08:56:27 AM »
In Trump's 60 Minute interview in Nov. he states that repeal and replace will happen at the same time.
Don't worry Trumpcare will be fantastic, fabulous even.
----
Lesley Stahl: And there’s going to be a period if you repeal it and before you replace it, when millions of people could lose -– no?

Donald Trump: No, we’re going to do it simultaneously. It’ll be just fine. We’re not going to have, like, a two-day period and we’re not going to have a two-year period where there’s nothing. It will be repealed and replaced. And we’ll know. And it’ll be great health care for much less money. So it’ll be better health care, much better, for less money. Not a bad combination.
----
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-donald-trump-family-melania-ivanka-lesley-stahl/

It will be, people will still have insurance.... People currently buy insurance through insurance providers. I'm not sure why it needs to be replaced with anything, I agree with a few aspects of the ACA in regards to insurance eligibility. But it will be replaced by private insurance, unless the private health insurance providers decide to make a change, which is their right to do.

thenextguy

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2017, 09:47:41 AM »
But it will be replaced by private insurance

*blink*

Uh, the ACA is private insurance.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2017, 10:18:15 AM »
But it will be replaced by private insurance

*blink*

Uh, the ACA is private insurance.
and......

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2017, 10:32:08 AM »
Greenback is 31, likely employed and getting some form of healthcare through employer (subsidized by taxpayers).

Correct me if I am wrong here.

If he/she were 55,  had a bout with cancer, then is terminated from job outsourced to uzbekibekistanstan and finds out private insurance is $4,000 a month if they will even write a policy, ACA probably would have looked pretty good.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2017, 11:16:12 AM »
Greenback is 31, likely employed and getting some form of healthcare through employer (subsidized by taxpayers).

Correct me if I am wrong here.

Yep you are ;)

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2017, 11:43:28 AM »
I was just using the age in your sig

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2017, 12:21:13 PM »
I was just using the age in your sig
No problem, you were right about the age, but wrong about being covered by an employer.

Raeon

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #169 on: January 11, 2017, 12:17:57 AM »
It's an optimistic stretch, but there is one big positive to come from all of this.  It has started a nationwide discussion.  There was a lot of grumbling in the background before ACA.  Now it's near the top of the political talking points.  I don't have a lot of faith in bureaucracy/politicians, but if there's ever going to be a positive change it starts with acknowledging there's a problem. 
Being young, I hope to see something change for the better in my lifetime.  If it doesn't, I'll adjust to the rules of the game and trudge on.  Worst case scenario I move to another country or I die, that one's going to happen sooner or later anyways...

I don't want to derail this thread into a religious talking point, and I realize that for many, living disabled is worse than dying, but I've always like this quote.

 “We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?”
-Richard Dawkins.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #170 on: January 11, 2017, 12:54:21 AM »
Really - nobody says that ACA should stand without modification.  I haven't heard anybody here say that.  And for many of us - without ACA we could not get insurance.  What is your beef with that?

Well, you say that, but there is this exchange that contradicts this.....

I love how the only options are ACA as implemented or No Medical Care, ever. I mean, seriously..
For many people who have pre-existing conditions those are the two options, the fact that you can ignore that means you are not paying attention.

No improvements, no changes, no compromise; just the ACA as enacted, or no medical care. Not 'no medical insurance' literally if one has a problem with the ACA as implemented they should not see a doctor, even if they pay for the visit.

Gin1984

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #171 on: January 11, 2017, 04:56:49 AM »
Really - nobody says that ACA should stand without modification.  I haven't heard anybody here say that.  And for many of us - without ACA we could not get insurance.  What is your beef with that?

Well, you say that, but there is this exchange that contradicts this.....

I love how the only options are ACA as implemented or No Medical Care, ever. I mean, seriously..
For many people who have pre-existing conditions those are the two options, the fact that you can ignore that means you are not paying attention.

No improvements, no changes, no compromise; just the ACA as enacted, or no medical care. Not 'no medical insurance' literally if one has a problem with the ACA as implemented they should not see a doctor, even if they pay for the visit.
Given you are using my statements to bolster your incorrect statements, I thought I'd correct you.  I have said there are improvements needed.  There are fixes that can be done.  But, by repealing it, yes you are making it so I cannot get the care I need.  And that care is not just a MD visit.  It is emergency care, giving birth (which I am in the middle of) etc.  The idea that I am limited in the care/ treatment for my daughter because I have a medical condition is insane.  Cash pay patients have a shorter lifespan than insured patients and even for the same issue, have adverse outcomes so yes, right now it is ACA or nothing because in the last SIX year the GOP has not created ANY other plan. 
So please don't attempt to use my statements to bolster your incorrect statements nor put words in my mouth.

AZDude

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #172 on: January 12, 2017, 08:28:31 AM »
I get why people were frustrated by the ACA, but I'm not sure how much better we can do.
Stop being so god damn unhealthy. The average American is a slob. Either shame them to death like smokers 30 years ago, or have real incentives in place.

Demand price controls: why is a monthly pack of birth control pills $30+ for an American woman, and $3 for virtually everyone else?

Aren't they free for anyone with health insurance as "preventive medicine"? If not, they should be. Pills cost a hell of a lot less than giving birth. Child birth is a few grand without insurance, and that is best case scenario. I imagine HI companies pay out something like $10K on average per birth. They probably want as few births as possible to help their bottom line.

jim555

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #173 on: January 12, 2017, 08:33:02 AM »
The ACA is helping to prevent conditions before they become events, like hypertension, cancers (breast, colon), pregnancy.  Preventative screenings are provided with no co-pays.  Makes a lot of sense.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #174 on: January 12, 2017, 05:54:51 PM »
The ACA is helping to prevent conditions before they become events, like hypertension, cancers (breast, colon), pregnancy.  Preventative screenings are provided with no co-pays.  Makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that's actually true, so why would it make sense to me?

jim555

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #175 on: January 12, 2017, 06:09:50 PM »
The ACA is helping to prevent conditions before they become events, like hypertension, cancers (breast, colon), pregnancy.  Preventative screenings are provided with no co-pays.  Makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that's actually true, so why would it make sense to me?
"If you have a new health insurance plan or insurance policy beginning on or after September 23, 2010, the following preventive services must be covered without your having to pay a copayment or co-insurance or meet your deductible. ..."
Link for list:
https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts-and-features/fact-sheets/preventive-services-covered-under-aca/

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #176 on: January 12, 2017, 06:22:27 PM »
The ACA is helping to prevent conditions before they become events, like hypertension, cancers (breast, colon), pregnancy.  Preventative screenings are provided with no co-pays.  Makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that's actually true, so why would it make sense to me?
"If you have a new health insurance plan or insurance policy beginning on or after September 23, 2010, the following preventive services must be covered without your having to pay a copayment or co-insurance or meet your deductible. ..."


I am aware that a ACA compliant plan covers a long list of preventative services.  What I don't believe is actually true, is that preventative care actually prevents conditions from becoming "events".  There is conflicting evidence on the value of regular screenings and healthy checkups.

jim555

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #177 on: January 12, 2017, 06:26:22 PM »
The ACA is helping to prevent conditions before they become events, like hypertension, cancers (breast, colon), pregnancy.  Preventative screenings are provided with no co-pays.  Makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that's actually true, so why would it make sense to me?
"If you have a new health insurance plan or insurance policy beginning on or after September 23, 2010, the following preventive services must be covered without your having to pay a copayment or co-insurance or meet your deductible. ..."


I am aware that a ACA compliant plan covers a long list of preventative services.  What I don't believe is actually true, is that preventative care actually prevents conditions from becoming "events".  There is conflicting evidence on the value of regular screenings and healthy checkups.
You can't be serious. 

Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #178 on: January 12, 2017, 06:42:09 PM »
The ACA is helping to prevent conditions before they become events, like hypertension, cancers (breast, colon), pregnancy.  Preventative screenings are provided with no co-pays.  Makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that's actually true, so why would it make sense to me?
"If you have a new health insurance plan or insurance policy beginning on or after September 23, 2010, the following preventive services must be covered without your having to pay a copayment or co-insurance or meet your deductible. ..."


I am aware that a ACA compliant plan covers a long list of preventative services.  What I don't believe is actually true, is that preventative care actually prevents conditions from becoming "events".  There is conflicting evidence on the value of regular screenings and healthy checkups.
You can't be serious.

He's probably referring to things like prostate exams, where there is some evidence that there is no point in doing them as early or as often as they are done. This of course is for one specific procedure though and it's silly to imply that even with a dozen such examples that means preventative care in general is bogus.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #179 on: January 12, 2017, 06:51:38 PM »

You can't be serious. 

I am.  Mammograms are only marginally more effective at identifying breast cancer than monthly checks done by the person by using their fingers to look for lumps, and cost much more, obviously.  The same is roughly true for testicular cancer prior to about age 45.  Unless there is already a family or personal history of a disease that benefits from early detection, annual checkups are probably useless between the ages of 17 and 40, maybe longer.   Half of the vaccines on the recommended schedule are of questionable value, and pretty much all of the vaccines that are required to travel to certain places abroad are too dangerous to give to everyone.  Most, if not all, of the preventative measure regulations in the ACA encourage over-use of medical services; which is a waste of resources, and contribute to inflation of costs for everyone.  Our over litigious medical industry contributes to this as well, resulting in doctors that over-prescribe medical testing such as MRI's just to cover their own butts in the event they screw up the diagnosis and get sued, but at least when the patient still had to pay a co-pay for these services, some would say "hold on now, do I really need that?".  But if they are free, why not?

Fireball

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #180 on: January 12, 2017, 07:53:27 PM »
"annual checkups are probably useless between the ages of 17 and 40, maybe longer."

My father in law would disagree. He had an annual check up at 38 years old which determined he needed quadruple bypass surgery immediately. No family history. That annual checkup saved his life, plus it allowed my wife to be born. I'd say it was pretty useful for all involved.

protostache

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #181 on: January 12, 2017, 07:59:38 PM »

You can't be serious. 

I am.  Mammograms are only marginally more effective at identifying breast cancer than monthly checks done by the person by using their fingers to look for lumps, and cost much more, obviously.  The same is roughly true for testicular cancer prior to about age 45.  Unless there is already a family or personal history of a disease that benefits from early detection, annual checkups are probably useless between the ages of 17 and 40, maybe longer.   Half of the vaccines on the recommended schedule are of questionable value, and pretty much all of the vaccines that are required to travel to certain places abroad are too dangerous to give to everyone.  Most, if not all, of the preventative measure regulations in the ACA encourage over-use of medical services; which is a waste of resources, and contribute to inflation of costs for everyone.  Our over litigious medical industry contributes to this as well, resulting in doctors that over-prescribe medical testing such as MRI's just to cover their own butts in the event they screw up the diagnosis and get sued, but at least when the patient still had to pay a co-pay for these services, some would say "hold on now, do I really need that?".  But if they are free, why not?

Please explain in detail and cite your sources.

Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #182 on: January 12, 2017, 08:34:19 PM »
Yeah vaccines are safe and effective. Nonstarter to claim they are "unnecessary," unless we're talking about something like forcing all Americans to get a Dengue Fever vaccine or whatever. But I do agree a lot of routine care is potentially not needed. Still think regular checkups are a smart idea though, per Fireball's example and many other less dramatic but still important possibilities.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #183 on: January 12, 2017, 10:33:44 PM »
"annual checkups are probably useless between the ages of 17 and 40, maybe longer."

My father in law would disagree. He had an annual check up at 38 years old which determined he needed quadruple bypass surgery immediately. No family history. That annual checkup saved his life, plus it allowed my wife to be born. I'd say it was pretty useful for all involved.

One data point.  Really?

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #184 on: January 12, 2017, 11:07:36 PM »
So the Senate has voted to defund the ACA.  The plan is for the House to approve it by reconciliation on January 27th.  Obamacare will be officially dead before the month is out.

Because they are repealing it through reconciliation, they can only get rid of the financial side of the bill. 

1.  No more subsidies or cost sharing for people under 400% of the FPL, so everyone will pay full price for their plan.

2.  No more expanded medicaid (unless individual states step up to cover the costs), so 22 million people will become uninsured.

3.  No more individual mandate penalty for people who use healthcare without paying for it.  Damn freeloaders.

4.  No more 3.8% surtax on investment income over $200k/year, which reduces federal revenues.  Thank goodness those rich folks are finally getting some tax relief!

Also because they are repealing it through reconciliation, there are some parts of the law they can't get rid of right away.

1.  The exclusion on denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions will stay in effect, for now.

2.  People under 26 can stay on their parents' insurance plans, for now

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #185 on: January 12, 2017, 11:12:36 PM »
One data point.  Really?

Every once in a while, on data point is sufficient.

Obama said that if you liked your doctor, you would be able to keep him under the Affordable Care Act.  Under the Affordable Care Act, at least some people's doctors were removed from their insurance provider's network (for reasons unrelated to the ACA) and so Obama was wrong.  A single person losing their doctor makes him wrong.

Similarly, if you claim that annual checkups are categorically useless, then a single life saved by an annual checkup proves you wrong.  Just don't talk in broad generalities like a politician, and you can usually avoid such a fate.

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #186 on: January 12, 2017, 11:18:51 PM »

You can't be serious. 

I am.  Mammograms are only marginally more effective at identifying breast cancer than monthly checks done by the person by using their fingers to look for lumps, and cost much more, obviously.  The same is roughly true for testicular cancer prior to about age 45.  Unless there is already a family or personal history of a disease that benefits from early detection, annual checkups are probably useless between the ages of 17 and 40, maybe longer.   Half of the vaccines on the recommended schedule are of questionable value, and pretty much all of the vaccines that are required to travel to certain places abroad are too dangerous to give to everyone.  Most, if not all, of the preventative measure regulations in the ACA encourage over-use of medical services; which is a waste of resources, and contribute to inflation of costs for everyone.  Our over litigious medical industry contributes to this as well, resulting in doctors that over-prescribe medical testing such as MRI's just to cover their own butts in the event they screw up the diagnosis and get sued, but at least when the patient still had to pay a co-pay for these services, some would say "hold on now, do I really need that?".  But if they are free, why not?

Please explain in detail and cite your sources.

My problem with vaccines is that they broadly have an image that they are, as a rule, massively favorable on a risk versus reward perspective.  This is not always true, but the public doesn't have enough information to make an educated decision on an individual basis, and even if we did, vaccine companies have huge marketing budgets that tend to override rational analysis of their products.  Lets do a quick look at the common flu vaccine, per Wikipedia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_efficacy

Quote
Vaccine efficacy is the percentage reduction of disease in a vaccinated group of people compared to an unvaccinated group, using the most favorable conditions.

Basicly, how well does a vaccine protect the group from outbreak, versus a control group. 

Quote
The NEJM did a study on the A flu efficacy Influenza virus. A total of 1952 subjects were enrolled and received study vaccines in the fall of 2007. Influenza activity occurred from January through April 2008, with the circulation of influenza types:

    A (H3N2) (about 90%)
    B (about 9%).

Absolute efficacy against both types of influenza, as measured by isolating the virus in culture, identifying it on real-time polymerase-chain-reaction assay, or both, was 68 percent (95 percent confidence interval [CI], 46 to 81) for the inactivated vaccine and 36 percent (95 percent CI, 0 to 59) for the live attenuated vaccine. In terms of relative efficacy, there was a 50 percent (95 percent CI, 20 to 69) reduction in laboratory-confirmed influenza among subjects who received inactivated vaccine as compared with those given live attenuated vaccine. subjects were placed in a healthy adult population. The efficacy against the influenza A virus was 72 percent and for the inactivated was 29 percent with a relative efficacy of 60 percent. The influenza vaccine is not 100% efficacious in preventing disease, but it is as close to 100% safe, and much safer than the disease.

Taking this metric alone, the flu vaccine is fairly effective, and it's also about as safe a vaccine as exists.  I have no problem with offering this vaccine to the public as a rule, maybe even for free since it's also pretty damn cheap.  But the flu vaccine is about the best example as can be provided.  Let's look at the same metric for other vaccines, and inherent health risks of the vaccine itself, if we can...

How about Whooping Cough...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/01/26/whooping-cough-vaccine-ineffective.aspx

Quote
In one particular classroom in which all students had received the pertussis vaccine, 50 percent still developed whopping cough. Cases of whooping cough have been on the rise, increasing six-fold from 2000 to 2012. Some believe the increase may be due to vaccine failure.

The problem isn't that the vaccine doesn't work, it does, but the protection fades over time...

https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/pregnant/mom/vacc-effectiveness.html

Quote
In the first year after getting vaccinated, whooping cough vaccines for adolescents and adults (called Tdap) protect about 7 out of 10 people who receive them. There is a decrease in effectiveness in each following year. About 3 or 4 out of 10 people are fully protected 4 years after getting Tdap.

This probably wouldn't be an issue unto itself, if the Dtap vaccine were as safe as the flu vaccine, but it's not.  It's still pretty good, significant reactions don't occur often at all, but then, whooping cough is also much less likely to harm you than the flu, anyway.

I could keep going down into the "tropical" set of vaccines, such as yellow fever, but my point is that these vaccines do not all carry the same risks, nor the same rewards; and they also vary significantly in cost.  They benefit from an image of high effectiveness and low risk, but that is certainly not true for all of them.  There is some minority of the medical public that questions the idea that vaccines should be pushed at all, in a similar sense that the medical community no longer prescribes antibiotics like they used to.  There is some question about whether some of these less hazardous diseases should be left to nature, and the vaccines pulled, due to the idea that a naturally acquired immunity is longer lasting than an induced immunity.

I, for one, don't get the flu vaccine by choice.  I have had the flu twice in my life, and both times sucked; but of the number of times I've chosen to take my "free" flu vaccine, I've had a reaction to the vaccine itself every time.  I would get flu like symptoms for about a day, but I ended up missing work every time I did it.  Perhaps the argument can me made that I still benefit on my off years, by having fewer infected people around me.  I could see that perspective.  But the idea of such preventives being "free" as a rule inside any available health plan, I don't like it.  Again, predictable health expenses should not be paid for by insurance. 

Quidnon?

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #187 on: January 12, 2017, 11:22:01 PM »

Similarly, if you claim that annual checkups are categorically useless,

I didn't say that.  I said that regular checkups are, statistically, unlikely to catch anything in the absence of any symptoms that would have prompted a normal person to seek out a checkup anyway.

Lagom

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #188 on: January 12, 2017, 11:35:59 PM »
Quidnon, nothing you said gave evidence of a downside to getting vaccinated other than implicitly asking us to take your word for it. While I disagree even with this, all you have argued is that the upside is limited. You did this by selectively choosing the flu vaccine, which is not mandated in any way (e.g. for school registration, even) and is very clearly by everyone's admission only aimed at controlling the most likely strain in a given year, and the whopping cough, for which you cite a random alternative medicine doc and the CDC, the latter of which would agree with me when I say that the point is effecting a herd immunity despite your misappropriation of their statistics.

I acknowledge that some people have adverse reactions to some vaccines, and you know what, no one is strapping children to chairs and injecting them. But far more children have died of preventable diseases, and I damn well don't want potential carriers infiltrating my children's schools because some people believe in fear over science. This is doubly true if (hypothetically) my children are among the rare few who legitimately can't get vaccinated for medical reasons.

marty998

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #189 on: January 12, 2017, 11:38:03 PM »

Similarly, if you claim that annual checkups are categorically useless,

I didn't say that.  I said that regular checkups are, statistically, unlikely to catch anything in the absence of any symptoms that would have prompted a normal person to seek out a checkup anyway.

But it did pick up something. Just because something is rare doesn't mean it should be dismissed.

On the point of an overly litigious medical industry, it's not the industry that is litigious, it's patients and lawyers. If you want to stop the industry from overly covering it ass, you should be directing your anger at Joe Public and the legal profession, not doctors.

runewell

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #190 on: January 13, 2017, 07:11:12 AM »


*blink*

Uh, the ACA is private insurance.
[/quote]

No, the ACA is government interference in private insurance.  And socialism.

GuitarStv

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #191 on: January 13, 2017, 07:33:35 AM »
Uh, the ACA is private insurance.

No, the ACA is government interference in private insurance.  And socialism.
[/quote]

Holy shit! Socialism?  What a terrifying word!  What other horrors has socialism given us?

The military.
Fire departments.
Police.
Public roadways.
Pollution regulations.
Medicare.
Public parks.
Public education.
Public museums.

Are we all done quaking in fear yet?

Fireball

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #192 on: January 13, 2017, 07:52:40 AM »
"annual checkups are probably useless between the ages of 17 and 40, maybe longer."

My father in law would disagree. He had an annual check up at 38 years old which determined he needed quadruple bypass surgery immediately. No family history. That annual checkup saved his life, plus it allowed my wife to be born. I'd say it was pretty useful for all involved.

One data point.  Really?

Sorry, that's how it works. Assertions made with no evidence are easily dismissed by assertions made with little evidence. I could give more if you like.  If I have 3-4 data points in this tiny thread viewed by just a few people, it makes you wonder if there are more out there in this country of 300 million people. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 08:49:16 AM by Fireball »

sol

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #193 on: January 13, 2017, 08:55:15 AM »

Similarly, if you claim that annual checkups are categorically useless,

I didn't say that.  I said that regular checkups are, statistically, unlikely to catch anything in the absence of any symptoms that would have prompted a normal person to seek out a checkup anyway.

Sure.  Seatbelts are also statistically unlikely to save your life.  I put that damn thing on every single time and it's never done me one bit of good.

But I still wear it.  Seatbelts save lives.  So do routine doctor visits.  And vaccines.  And having health insurance.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 08:56:47 AM by sol »

teen persuasion

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #194 on: January 13, 2017, 09:10:17 AM »
So the Senate has voted to defund the ACA.  The plan is for the House to approve it by reconciliation on January 27th.  Obamacare will be officially dead before the month is out.

Because they are repealing it through reconciliation, they can only get rid of the financial side of the bill. 

1.  No more subsidies or cost sharing for people under 400% of the FPL, so everyone will pay full price for their plan.

2.  No more expanded medicaid (unless individual states step up to cover the costs), so 22 million people will become uninsured.

3.  No more individual mandate penalty for people who use healthcare without paying for it.  Damn freeloaders.

4.  No more 3.8% surtax on investment income over $200k/year, which reduces federal revenues.  Thank goodness those rich folks are finally getting some tax relief!

Also because they are repealing it through reconciliation, there are some parts of the law they can't get rid of right away.

1.  The exclusion on denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions will stay in effect, for now.

2.  People under 26 can stay on their parents' insurance plans, for now

So what would this mean, practically? 

When would subsidies and such end?  Immediately?  Next year?

When would expanded Medicaid stop?  Wouldn't that be on a state by state basis?  Aren't you just saying the extra funds to states for expanded Medicaid would end?  When would that happen?  If individuals qualified and were enrolled in Medicaid, and the rules changed, are they dropped, or grandfathered for a time?

You see where I'm going here - the devil's in the details.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #195 on: January 13, 2017, 09:24:18 AM »
Maybe I am not reading the right news sources, but I find it interesting how the story is spinned as the big political showdown that it is, and the millions of people losing coverage as an afterthought.

Yeah the people affected most are rarely being heard anyway, but I can't help and wonder if a similar number of people suddenly lost, say, their mortgage interest deduction. I bet there would be people in the streets demanding

Why isn't there a large group marching in DC right now?

runewell

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #196 on: January 13, 2017, 09:32:57 AM »

[/quote]

Assertions made with no evidence are easily dismissed by assertions made with little evidence.
[/quote]

Where's your evidence?  Otherwise I might dismiss your assertion  :)

Gin1984

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #197 on: January 13, 2017, 09:41:26 AM »
Maybe I am not reading the right news sources, but I find it interesting how the story is spinned as the big political showdown that it is, and the millions of people losing coverage as an afterthought.

Yeah the people affected most are rarely being heard anyway, but I can't help and wonder if a similar number of people suddenly lost, say, their mortgage interest deduction. I bet there would be people in the streets demanding

Why isn't there a large group marching in DC right now?
Because they will be there on the 21st....

GuitarStv

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #198 on: January 13, 2017, 09:43:47 AM »

Assertions made with no evidence are easily dismissed by assertions made with little evidence.
[/quote]

Where's your evidence?  Otherwise I might dismiss your assertion  :)
[/quote]

I go as far as asserting that significant evidence exists to demonstrates the opposite of that assertion.

jim555

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Re: Senate votes to repeal ACA
« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2017, 11:38:35 AM »
I don't see how defunding doesn't blow up in the Repubs face.  So no subsidies and no Medicaid.  Which will cause havoc.
How will they blame Dems for this when they are the ones who did it?

They can't replace without 60 votes and the Dems are not going to give them enough for a replace.  They could do it if they kill the fillibuster, but they might not want to do that.