Author Topic: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour  (Read 37649 times)

prof61820

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Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« on: June 02, 2014, 05:54:13 PM »
Interesting news out of Seattle for minimum wage workers.  http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023753163_wagevotexml.html

Is this news good or bad for Mustachians living in the Northwest?

Here's the full story:

Seattle City Council gives final OK to historic $15 minimum wage

By Lynn Thompson

Seattle Times staff reporter

The Seattle City Council Monday unanimously approved a $15 minimum wage, creating a path over the next seven years to provide the city’s lowest-paid workers the nation’s highest minimum wage.

Fast-food workers, union organizers and labor activists celebrated on the City Hall Plaza after the historic vote with cake and ice cream provided by some local small businesses who joined in support of a plan that will phase-in the $15 minimum over the next seven years.

“A year ago, $15 was just a number on fast food picket signs. Today it’s become a reality for 100,000 Seattle workers,” said Sage Wilson, spokesman for Working Washington, a union-backed group that helped organize the first fast-food workers’ strike almost exactly one year ago.

The speed with which the measure went from political slogan to economic reality surprised even advocates, whose campaign emphasized the high cost of living in Seattle and the low pay of even full-time minimum wage workers who currently earn about $19,300 a year.

“I think the fast food walkouts tapped into the frustration and anger at seeing lives shut down because of low wages,” said Councilmember Nick Licata. “ We all see how much money is being concentrated in a few hands.”

Both mayoral candidates supported the idea during the 2013 campaign, and once elected, Mayor Ed Murray made it a priority second only to police reform; he stood in the back of council chambers as the vote was taken. A $15 minimum wage passed in SeaTac in November after both labor and business spent heavily fighting each other on the measure.

The election of socialist City Councilmember Kshama Sawant in November provided pressure from the left. Her organization, 15 Now, made raising the minimum wage a political rallying cry and convinced many business leaders to work for a compromise proposal on Murray’s Income Inequality Advisory Committee.

That committee of labor, business and nonprofit leaders agreed May 1 on a phased-in approach, after four months of tense and sometimes bitter negotiations that seemingly left none of the 24-members completely satisfied. Labor didn’t like the lengthy ramp-up to get workers to $15 an hour; business objected to the phaseout of credit for benefits and tips which they argued were part of their workers’ wages.

At the 11th-hour, Murray told a core group of negotiators to come up with a proposal or he would introduce to the City Council a measure much closer to the 15 Now plan.

Public opinion also seems to strongly support the higher minimum wage, adding pressure for the politicians to adopt the compromise plan. Polling in January and May found strong support among likely Seattle voters for raising the minimum wage, with almost three-fourths — 74 percent — in May saying they supported the mayor’s phased-in plan to reach $15.

Some small business and restaurant owners still question whether they’ll survive a 61 percent hike in the state’s minimum wage, already the highest in the country, even with a lengthy phase-in. And during hearings before the City Council, local franchise owners complained that they were being caught in the net of activists seeking to get at the billions in profits of their corporate parents.

The International Franchise Association issued a news release within minutes saying the varied phase-in time was unfair and that it planned to sue.

“The suit will seek to overturn the unfair and discriminatory minimum wage plan that was approved by the City Council. IFA will fight to preserve the tenets of the franchise model, which has helped hundreds of thousands of people enjoy business ownership and created economic opportunity for many,” the release said.

Ubah Aden, a Somali immigrant who works as a home health care aide, was at City Hall for the landmark vote.

“A lot of people thought, Oh no, it’s not going to happen. It’s happening.” Aden, who makes $10.95 an hour said, It’s going to make a big change not only for myself, but for others in my shoes.”

The City Council did slightly modify the compromise agreement. Last week members added a training wage for teens and disabled workers and delayed the start date from January to April. But in large part, the plan held.

Both of those amendments were debated again Monday before the vote, and both narrowly passed. Worker advocates in the audience frequently interrupted council members with jeers and chants.

Under the bill adopted Monday, minimum-wage workers will get raises starting April 1, the date set by the council. Employees of businesses with more than 500 workers will start at $11 and reach $15 in 2018. Large businesses that provide health care will have an additional year and those with fewer than 500 will be required to pay $15 in 2019. Small businesses that claim a credit for tips and benefits, will reach $15 an hour in 2021.

By 2025, according to city projections, all workers will be earning a minimum wage of $18.13 an hour, nearly double the state’s current $9.32 an hour.

AH013

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 08:36:39 PM »
Not that I'm against people who do an honest day's work earning a livable wage, but I think it flies in the face of reality economics. Some tasks just aren't worth $15 an hour (or the $20 an hour it will cost all in with taxes, healthcare, etc).  Take the guy who bags my groceries -- if it takes 5 minutes to bag my groceries, the store needs to earn an extra $1.50 off my bill to cover this cost versus another store that doesn't bag my groceries.  I can see owners choosing to not have baggers so they can shave a few extra cents off every product that would have covered that $1.50/customer, and customers going there, until most stores follow suite and most baggers are going to be out of a job.

I feel a little bad for the cashiers, fast food order takers, and other jobs that will be replaced by computers before they realize this "pay increase" Keshma & Ed "won" for them.

SDREMNGR

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 09:35:50 PM »
I think economists all over the world will be tracking the goings on in Seattle to see what a truly above competitive minimum wage will do for a market.  It will be interesting to see if the average fast food worker will be better educated and higher skilled (no more idiot high school Jr messing up the order) and if certain jobs will cease to exist and robots will replace all checkout clerks.

Mrs.FamilyFinances

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2014, 11:42:16 PM »
I'm a little worried about the minimum wage earner who uses state assistance for food stamps or medical (or other programs like this) having their benefits cut. I haven't done any research about how this will impact those receiving benefits, but I can see a scenario where a worker barely qualifying, will no longer meet the income guidelines and the gap between the new wage earning vs. the benefit received will be a hardship...

mxt0133

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 12:03:25 AM »
I'm a little worried about the minimum wage earner who uses state assistance for food stamps or medical (or other programs like this) having their benefits cut. I haven't done any research about how this will impact those receiving benefits, but I can see a scenario where a worker barely qualifying, will no longer meet the income guidelines and the gap between the new wage earning vs. the benefit received will be a hardship...

I know plenty of people on public assistance that just refuse to work over a certain amount of hours purely so they can still qualify.  People that are going to game the system will always find a way.  Some employers even have "employee assistance" programs that can help employees check to see if they qualify for any government  assistance.  No need to pay them more if the government will do it for them.

 

MrsPete

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 05:53:48 AM »
Not that I'm against people who do an honest day's work earning a livable wage, but I think it flies in the face of reality economics.
Ditto. 

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 06:55:59 AM »
I think economists all over the world will be tracking the goings on in Seattle to see what a truly above competitive minimum wage will do for a market.  It will be interesting to see if the average fast food worker will be better educated and higher skilled (no more idiot high school Jr messing up the order) and if certain jobs will cease to exist and robots will replace all checkout clerks.

"Sir, here is your tall vanilla latte.  That will be $14 please."

apfroggy0408

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 07:14:21 AM »
Any other followers of the Austrian school around here?

Results of policies like this are never what is intended.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 07:18:22 AM »
What I am curious to see is if the 15$ minimum wage will drive up other wages for companies that employ welders etc... at 20-21$ an hour. This is a big move. I agree , alot of folks will be watching.

shotgunwilly

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 07:23:07 AM »
Do I get a 61% increase in my salary too?

Noodle

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 08:11:03 AM »
I think Seattle is taking a huge gamble, which has the potential to either do amazing things for the city or really depress the business environment. I think the one thing we can safely say is that there will be a lot of unintended consequences. For instance, Seattle traffic is atrocious, partly because a lot of people have to move daily between where they can afford to live and where they have to work. More people may be able to afford to live close in, or perhaps the jobs will move out to where the people are. The big hospitals are all within the city lines. What will the ripple effect be on health care costs? Part of what gives Seattle its personality is all the indie businesses and small non-profits. All those owners and directors are looking at the books today, I'm sure. Entry level jobs in the arts are already very difficult to get in Seattle. Will this make it harder for young people to break in, if the symphony can only afford to employ one program assistant instead of two?

I'm sure part of the effects will depend on whether surrounding communities follow Seattle, or try to cash in on the advantages of being a cheaper place to situate a business than the central city. If the national minimum wage ever goes up, that would smooth out the effects too. I will be keeping my fingers crossed, for sure.

Luck12

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 08:40:04 AM »
Any other followers of the Austrian school around here?

Results of policies like this are never what is intended.

No.  I don't follow failed bullshit economic schools of thought.  I think this is a good experiment esp since it's being phased in over 5 years. 

Bookworm

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 10:18:45 AM »
Any other followers of the Austrian school around here?

Results of policies like this are never what is intended.

Yes, indeed.  This just makes me shake my head.  Maybe artificial price distortion will work THIS TIME.

Jamesqf

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 10:38:36 AM »
Take the guy who bags my groceries...

You must do your grocery shopping in a really upscale neighborhood.  I mean, to actually have someone who puts groceries in bags for you?  I suppose they have valet parking as well.  And people to put gas in your car for you...

For instance, Seattle traffic is atrocious, partly because a lot of people have to move daily between where they can afford to live and where they have to work. More people may be able to afford to live close in, or perhaps the jobs will move out to where the people are.

I would wonder whether the traffic is because of "afford to live", or because of "want to live".  My bet would be on a lot of jobs & businesses moving outside the city limits, but who knows?  Guess Seattlites are going to be living in intersting times...

Bateaux

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 10:56:55 AM »
It will work in Seattle.   It will be harder to do in Houston or Atlanta.

Noodle

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2014, 11:05:58 AM »
Quote
I would wonder whether the traffic is because of "afford to live", or because of "want to live".  My bet would be on a lot of jobs & businesses moving outside the city limits, but who knows?  Guess Seattlites are going to be living in intersting times...

I lived in Seattle for a number of years, and in general the people I knew who were commuting in would have preferred to live closer but couldn't afford homes in the city. Small, older bungalows in safe but not fashionable neighborhoods go for considerably more than my family in Texas paid for large modern 3-bedrooms on good-size lots. Minimum wage workers were pretty much priced out of buying unless they were willing to be in neighborhoods with crime problems. 

But I'm sure there's a certain group who like the more rural atmosphere, or the more modern developments, farther out and would do the drive nonetheless.

I agree that the direction of the city depends hugely on what the other communities decide to do. If they don't raise their minimum wages, a lot of businesses will go and I wonder how many newcomers will agree to come in.

Mustachian-wise, everyone seems to agree that the wage rise will affect the cost of goods and services. Right now, there is not a huge price advantage to leaving the city for basic things like groceries and haircuts, but it seems that may change. I wonder whether Amazon is expecting a rise in local sales. I could see how a lot of household items might eventually look cheaper online.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 11:31:05 AM by Noodle »

Jack

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2014, 11:21:43 AM »
It will work in Seattle.   It will be harder to do in Houston or Atlanta.

Not sure about the first part, but the second part is certainly true. In Atlanta, even skilled workers (teachers, police, graphic artists, engineering co-op students, etc.) make less than $15/hour!

lisahi

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2014, 11:23:11 AM »
Part of this increase is simply catching up with inflation, so it would be unfair not to re-evaluate and increase minimum wage every few years.

Part of this is Seattle realizing that a lot of minimum wage jobs are actually worth the increased wage, and the folks who do them shouldn't be living under the poverty level.

Take, for example, that grocery bagger. Does his job take a lot of mental power? Not really. Does it take a lot of stamina? Yeah, it actually does. Would you like to be on your feet for 8 hours a day moving objects into bags. Over and over. Over and over. Some small and delicate, some heavy and awkward, some wet and cold. It sucks. If that's your full-time job, why shouldn't you get paid $15 an hour to do it? Why is $15 a huge number in that situation?

Will there be jobs that aren't worth $15 an hour? Sure. But that would be the case regardless of where the minimum wage is set.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2014, 11:24:10 AM »
Not sure about the first part, but the second part is certainly true. In Atlanta, even skilled workers (teachers, police, graphic artists, engineering co-op students, etc.) make less than $15/hour!

Atlanta isn't *that* bad.  I made $11/hr to $12/hr as a electrical engineer co-op student at GTRI in 1989.

CarDude

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2014, 11:32:15 AM »
Interesting news out of Seattle for minimum wage workers.  http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023753163_wagevotexml.html

Is this news good or bad for Mustachians living in the Northwest?


Good news in my books. Hopefully this spurs changes all over the country!

Jamesqf

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2014, 11:43:54 AM »
Take, for example, that grocery bagger. Does his job take a lot of mental power? Not really. Does it take a lot of stamina? Yeah, it actually does. Would you like to be on your feet for 8 hours a day moving objects into bags. Over and over. Over and over. Some small and delicate, some heavy and awkward, some wet and cold. It sucks. If that's your full-time job, why shouldn't you get paid $15 an hour to do it? Why is $15 a huge number in that situation?

The question, though, is why anyone would think it's worth $15/hr to have someone stick groceries in bags.  I mean, why can't the customers do it themselves? 

There are a whole lot of jobs like that, that can easily disappear just through a change in attitude.  Honestly, it's been years since I've had anyone bag groceries for me, decades since I've seen a gas station attendant, even though both were common high school kid jobs when I was young.  Heck, these days you don't really even have cashiers at a lot of gas stations*, just automated card/bill readers.  Seems as though the major effect of laws like this is the unintended consequence of chopping off the bottom rungs of the economic ladder.

*Indeed, gas stations themselves are pretty rare, since selling gas is becoming mostly a function of convenience stores.

Silverwood

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2014, 11:56:22 AM »

Take, for example, that grocery bagger. Does his job take a lot of mental power? Not really. Does it take a lot of stamina? Yeah, it actually does. Would you like to be on your feet for 8 hours a day moving objects into bags. Over and over. Over and over. Some small and delicate, some heavy and awkward, some wet and cold. It sucks. If that's your full-time job, why shouldn't you get paid $15 an hour to do it? Why is $15 a huge number in that situation?

Will there be jobs that aren't worth $15 an hour? Sure. But that would be the case regardless of where the minimum wage is set.


I thought you were paid more because of the skills needed to do the job. Sure the grocery bagger  job might suck.  Most entry level jobs do. That was my incentive to work harder and get a better job.

Albert

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2014, 11:58:59 AM »
The sky will not fall, my own city already has unofficial minimum wage of about 20$ and hour. There probably won't be anyone bagging your groceries, though. It's an unnecessary job anyway.

AH013

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2014, 12:00:30 PM »
Take the guy who bags my groceries...

You must do your grocery shopping in a really upscale neighborhood.  I mean, to actually have someone who puts groceries in bags for you?  I suppose they have valet parking as well.  And people to put gas in your car for you...


I'm sure that was intended to be sarcastic, but I definitely think grocery store behavior has changed over time.  It used to be normal that you got your groceries, the cashier would ring you up, a bagger would put your groceries in your choice of paper or plastic, and then they would actually walk your cart out to your car, load the bags into your trunk, and send you on your way with a smile and a "thanks for your business".

...I know of 1 grocery store chain around me out of 7 that still actually walks the groceries out to your car for "free"....I know of 2 that converted half their lanes to self-service "ring yourself up and bag it yourself".   I fully admit I shop at the latter...explicitly because the former is roughly 15% more expense on products across the board, in no small part probably due to paying for 20 minutes of associate time for someone to do all that stuff, while the latter pays none of that.

Customer service is nice and all, but I don't think the guy earning $15/hr bagging my groceries is going to do a better job than the guy earning $9/hour, and human behavior is to very quick to adjust to thinking that we are always underpaid (thus, you'll soon see demands for $20/hr being the new "living wage").

Plus customers aren't stupid and see the cost of doing business.  Banks used to actually pay customers for using ATMs instead of tellers, and pay customers to receive e-statements instead of paper statements (now they just charge fees, but same train of thought), and people made the decisions that saved them the most which also saved the businesses the most.  If a Seattle business offered a 3% discount for using the self checkout lane I guarantee you the staffing level needs drop off a cliff, and you can bet the mayor isn't going to be hiring any minimum wage workers who get laid off as a result of this.

I'm all for people earning $15/hour...but converting O to CO2 is worth $0, and to earn more than that requires a skill society values at whatever wage society values that skill at.  People who mistakenly think raising the minimum wage is "free money" that "businesses ought to pay so government doesn't have to subsidize their workers" generally fail to understand the economics that a minimum wage is a tax that only punishes industries that do not adopt mechanization or other technological advances.  Businesses adapt, technology replaces more jobs, minimum wage workers get laid off, and there are less jobs for Timmy to earn some after-school money for college, while the person who dropped out of high school to make a 20 year career out of saying "do you want fries with that?" is confused why the local McDonald's franchise owner just staying afloat doesn't want to pay them $15/hour for something a computer will do for $0.25 a day.

gdgyva

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2014, 12:02:03 PM »
exactly

the old adage of skills pay the bills hasnt changed in my 50+ years

automation will become more prevalent.....scut jobs will be replaced, or automated

there is always a cost to change over to computers/automation

when you change the wages by 60% in one fell swoop, it makes those changes much more viable fiscally

sorry....but a dishwasher is not worth $ 15 an hour.....

500 people within a mile can do the exact same job

minimum wage jobs are supposed to be stepping stones to bigger and more responsible jobs...with appropriate raises along the way

with this law....there will be no OJT.....you dont have what i need....sorry....NEXT

and now what happens to those who made $ 12 an hour doing basic bookkeeping or payables.....

are they getting a 60% raise

what about the guy who has learned the skills....front line cook at $ 16 bucks an hour (is he getting the same % raise also)

where does it stop at?

this is ONLY good for the unions....which most use MW in their contracts as a starting point (article follows)

Organized labor's instantaneous support for President Obama's recent proposal to hike the minimum wage doesn't make much sense at first glance. The average private-sector union member—at least one who still has a job—earns $22 an hour according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That's a far cry from the current $7.25 per hour federal minimum wage, or the $9 per hour the president has proposed. Altruistic solidarity with lower-paid workers isn't the reason for organized labor's cheerleading, either.

The real reason is that some unions and their members directly benefit from minimum wage increases—even when nary a union member actually makes the minimum wage.

The Center for Union Facts analyzed collective-bargaining agreements obtained from the Department of Labor's Office of Labor-Management Standards. The data indicate that a number of unions in the service, retail and hospitality industries peg their base-line wages to the minimum wage.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324048904578318541000422454

sure...the people who will still have jobs will be making more.....now what are you going to do with all those who lose their jobs to automation, or to owners refusing to lower their profit margins

lisahi

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2014, 12:02:32 PM »
Take, for example, that grocery bagger. Does his job take a lot of mental power? Not really. Does it take a lot of stamina? Yeah, it actually does. Would you like to be on your feet for 8 hours a day moving objects into bags. Over and over. Over and over. Some small and delicate, some heavy and awkward, some wet and cold. It sucks. If that's your full-time job, why shouldn't you get paid $15 an hour to do it? Why is $15 a huge number in that situation?

The question, though, is why anyone would think it's worth $15/hr to have someone stick groceries in bags.  I mean, why can't the customers do it themselves? 

There are a whole lot of jobs like that, that can easily disappear just through a change in attitude.  Honestly, it's been years since I've had anyone bag groceries for me, decades since I've seen a gas station attendant, even though both were common high school kid jobs when I was young.  Heck, these days you don't really even have cashiers at a lot of gas stations*, just automated card/bill readers.  Seems as though the major effect of laws like this is the unintended consequence of chopping off the bottom rungs of the economic ladder.

*Indeed, gas stations themselves are pretty rare, since selling gas is becoming mostly a function of convenience stores.

Supply and demand. If the community wants grocery baggers, grocery stores will provide them. If they provide grocery baggers, then the baggers should get a reasonable wage that accounts for the suckitude of the job. We could technically get rid of all cashiers, but most communities still want at least some to check out large loads of groceries. We could get rid of all waiters and waitresses and make all restaurants self-service, but that would remove part of the experience of eating at a sit-down restaurant. You're paying for the experience, just like you might be paying slightly more overall to shop at a grocery store that still has baggers (even if you don't know it). There are a lot of service industry jobs that we could get rid of, but that we don't because there's still a demand for their existence.  We could say goodbye to lawn service (mow your own lawn!) or housecleaning (do your own household chores!), and I'm sure that wouldn't phase mustachians a bit. But it would phase a lot of other folks.  If there's a demand, and these jobs are still available, then they need to be paid reasonably. We shouldn't pay people who do a particular job according to some people's idea of the worthiness of that job's existence, which is an entirely separate query. We should pay people according to the duties and responsibilities of the job.

lisahi

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2014, 12:13:07 PM »

Take, for example, that grocery bagger. Does his job take a lot of mental power? Not really. Does it take a lot of stamina? Yeah, it actually does. Would you like to be on your feet for 8 hours a day moving objects into bags. Over and over. Over and over. Some small and delicate, some heavy and awkward, some wet and cold. It sucks. If that's your full-time job, why shouldn't you get paid $15 an hour to do it? Why is $15 a huge number in that situation?

Will there be jobs that aren't worth $15 an hour? Sure. But that would be the case regardless of where the minimum wage is set.


I thought you were paid more because of the skills needed to do the job. Sure the grocery bagger  job might suck.  Most entry level jobs do. That was my incentive to work harder and get a better job.

There are jobs that pay certain higher wages simply because most people don't want to do them, not because they require a lot of skill. Garbage workers, for one, although now most garbage pick-up uses only a driver and a mechanized garbage truck. But that driver is probably making a really decent wage. My cousin makes $70,000 a year (not including living expenses) as an errand boy working for oil companies. Does his job take skill? Heck, no. But he's out in the hot, hot, hot sun most of the day and away from home for lengthy periods of time. His job sucks, but he gets paid very well for putting up with it.

The idea that more skill = greater salary is put into practice a lot of the time, but not all of the time. And frankly, I don't think that skill should be the only thing we look at when determining salaries. Putting aside that people don't believe grocery baggers should exist as a job (they still very much exist in my not-wealthy city, by the way), there's not much to like about that job. It's dull, it requires stamina, it can be messy, you have to deal with some pretty idiotic customers, and some people actually do take you up on your offer of, "may I help you to your car today?" You don't get tipped 99.9% of the time when you do this, either. That has to be worth something. If it's not, then we as a society do not value the people who make our lives run easier--the people who work in unskilled labor. Yes, we need skilled workers; but we also need good, decent workers to do unskilled jobs. If we don't pay those people a living wage, then we really don't care about the folks at the base of our economy.

Luck12

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2014, 12:16:04 PM »
when you change the wages by 60% in one fell swoop

Its' not one fell swoop.  It's over 3-7 years depending on size of the business.  Also, I think the $15 includes the value of benefits and tips.

gdgyva

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2014, 12:17:10 PM »
Supply and demand. If the community wants grocery baggers, grocery stores will provide them. If they provide grocery baggers, then the baggers should get a reasonable wage that accounts for the suckitude of the job. We could technically get rid of all cashiers, but most communities still want at least some to check out large loads of groceries. We could get rid of all waiters and waitresses and make all restaurants self-service, but that would remove part of the experience of eating at a sit-down restaurant. You're paying for the experience, just like you might be paying slightly more overall to shop at a grocery store that still has baggers (even if you don't know it). There are a lot of service industry jobs that we could get rid of, but that we don't because there's still a demand for their existence.  We could say goodbye to lawn service (mow your own lawn!) or housecleaning (do your own household chores!), and I'm sure that wouldn't phase mustachians a bit. But it would phase a lot of other folks.  If there's a demand, and these jobs are still available, then they need to be paid reasonably. We shouldn't pay people who do a particular job according to some people's idea of the worthiness of that job's existence, which is an entirely separate query. We should pay people according to the duties and responsibilities of the job.


but the laws of supply and demand are why grocery baggers earn minimum wage

just about anyone can do the job

whereas a tax accountant has a more specialized set of skills....and because of it, gets a much higher wage

why do major league sports stars make so much? because so very few can do what they do....again supply and demand

saying you want every job paid "reasonably" is fine

who determines what reasonable means?

shouldnt it be the person who wants or needs the skill/service/job provided?


Eric

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2014, 12:25:30 PM »

but the laws of supply and demand are why grocery baggers earn minimum wage


And they still will

seattlecyclone

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2014, 12:26:43 PM »
The sky will not fall, my own city already has unofficial minimum wage of about 20$ and hour. There probably won't be anyone bagging your groceries, though. It's an unnecessary job anyway.

Grocery bagging is like a lot of other manual labor jobs: it will continue to be a paid position only so long as automating the task (or telling the customers to do it themselves, in this case) is costlier than paying an employee to do it. Technology is constantly bringing the cost of automation down, and a minimum wage increase like this just tilts the other side of the scale in the direction of eliminating more jobs. At the same time, increasing the minimum wage will make life better for a lot of people whose jobs can't be eliminated just yet. Will this big of an increase help more people than it harms? It's hard to say. We'll see what happens here in Seattle in the next few years.

I think the biggest possible unintended consequence could be making it harder for young workers to get their foot in the door and establish a good work history. If I was a business owner and some kid with a high school diploma and no work experience came by asking for a job, I would be a lot more likely to give him/her a chance if I could pay $8/hr than if I had to start out at $15. I will be very interested to see how the employment rate for 16-25 year olds changes after the higher minimum wage comes into effect, relative to the rest of the state.

lisahi

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2014, 12:29:06 PM »
but the laws of supply and demand are why grocery baggers earn minimum wage

just about anyone can do the job

whereas a tax accountant has a more specialized set of skills....and because of it, gets a much higher wage

why do major league sports stars make so much? because so very few can do what they do....again supply and demand

saying you want every job paid "reasonably" is fine

who determines what reasonable means?

shouldnt it be the person who wants or needs the skill/service/job provided?

Just about anybody can do a grocery baggers job -- that doesn't mean just about everybody wants to do a grocery baggers job or will do a grocery baggers job. That's the whole point I've been making. If the job sucks, fewer people will actually do it, and even fewer still if the wage for that job is below the poverty line.  It also doesn't mean that just about everybody who can and wants to do a grocery baggers job actually provides the proper level of service that we would want from a grocery bagger.  You could get a rude grocery bagger, a lazy grocery bagger, an incompetent grocery bagger who packs your eggs underneath a large ham. If a grocery store decides to employ grocery baggers, they probably want grocery baggers who are polite, competent and hard-working. Providing low, poverty wages for grocery baggers will mean that fewer good workers would apply for the job because, hey, grocery bagging kind of sucks. But if the wage is increased to above poverty level, good workers may decide that it's worth their effort to apply for the grocery bagging job. It may suck, but it's available and pays decently.

And who decides what is a reasonable wage? Well, Seattle decided. They decided that their unskilled labor force was worth $15/hour. Of course you don't have to agree with it, but saying that each individual person that uses the service of a minimum wage worker should decide the reasonable wage for that worker will get you thousands of different answers. So we elect politicians, we express all our opinions, and then those politicians vote.

frugalnacho

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2014, 12:36:44 PM »
Supply and demand. If the community wants grocery baggers, grocery stores will provide them.

Didn't the free market already determine that?  It's not really supply and demand, it's a government mandate.

gdgyva

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2014, 12:38:54 PM »
but if a manager of a grocery store CANT hire a bagger at $ 7.50 an hour, he has two options

increase what he is offering, or dont provide the service to your customer

I manage 145 people.....

Everyone of them thinks they are worth more than i pay them.....every year we do reviews

It never fails, when they ask what they can do to earn more, so many say i dont want to do that when i tell them what that would entail

Some jobs have a suckiness factor to them...garbageman for instance

Try to hire one for less than $ 25.00 an hour......in my part of the world they earn on average 70k annually

Again....supply and demand

We have lots of jobs around here that are never filled.....the business wants to pay to little for the work

Examples....hospital janitorial......or nurse assistants

very gross jobs.....not that much skill involved....but few want to do the work

every week i see at least 30-40 ads in the paper for them at 12 to 14 bucks an hour.....constant employee turnover

if they want to keep those employees, they need to pay them more

will they....probably not....hence the constant turnover of personnel

but those are all free market decisions made by businesses and employees

government mandated MW raises like this completely change the market

and there will be consequences to that.....and a lot of them will not be good for the community
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 12:43:02 PM by gdgyva »

legacyoneup

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2014, 12:41:26 PM »
Not sure about the first part, but the second part is certainly true. In Atlanta, even skilled workers (teachers, police, graphic artists, engineering co-op students, etc.) make less than $15/hour!

Um.. may I ask why skilled people are paid so low?

Argyle

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2014, 01:28:52 PM »
Around here (not a fancy city) all the supermarkets have baggers, and they always ask you if you want them to take the bags to your car for you.  The one scuzzy downmarket grocery only had intermittent baggers, and also tried to make people use a self-check-out.  These things, among others, made the place even less popular, and they recently were bought up by a different chain, who are taking out the self-checker machines.  At the grocery I usually use, the baggers interchange with the checkers, i.e. sometimes they check, sometimes they bag.  Occasionally the checker does both.

In Oregon and New Jersey, all gas has to be pumped by gas station workers, not by the customer.  The motivation behind that is to preserve jobs.  Boy am I glad of it in the rain, snow and cold.

I say good for Seattle.  The great thing about individual places having control over their individual circumstances is that places can try social experiments and we can all learn, rather than just having economists argue over hypotheticals.

Undecided

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2014, 01:44:42 PM »
I think economists all over the world will be tracking the goings on in Seattle to see what a truly above competitive minimum wage will do for a market.  It will be interesting to see if the average fast food worker will be better educated and higher skilled (no more idiot high school Jr messing up the order) and if certain jobs will cease to exist and robots will replace all checkout clerks.

I've no doubt they'll watch it, but surely the lessons that can be drawn from a single city's adoption of a higher minimum wage---while it's surrounded by other, reasonably easily accessed, cities and towns---won't be particularly relevant to broader proposals to increase minimum wages, whether at the state or national level.

Luck12

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2014, 02:16:57 PM »
I say good for Seattle.  The great thing about individual places having control over their individual circumstances is that places can try social experiments and we can all learn, rather than just having economists argue over hypotheticals.

Yep, glad WA is not one the many states where the state gov't is making it illegal for municipalities to pass laws like this.  See, the right wing only likes local/small gov't when it benefits the rich and screws over the poor.  Hypocrisy at its worst!   

dragoncar

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2014, 02:20:59 PM »
It will work in Seattle.   It will be harder to do in Houston or Atlanta.

Your font size is bad and you should feel bad

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2014, 02:27:08 PM »
It will work in Seattle.   It will be harder to do in Houston or Atlanta.

Your font size is bad and you should feel bad

What was that sonny?  Didn't hear you.

frugalnacho

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2014, 02:35:18 PM »
this thread is too loud for me.  love the zoidberg reference.

ncornilsen

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2014, 02:56:24 PM »
I say good for Seattle.  The great thing about individual places having control over their individual circumstances is that places can try social experiments and we can all learn, rather than just having economists argue over hypotheticals.

Yep, glad WA is not one the many states where the state gov't is making it illegal for municipalities to pass laws like this.  See, the right wing only likes local/small gov't when it benefits the rich and screws over the poor.  Hypocrisy at its worst!   

First, cite some example of a right-wing government making a law that says the city can't establish it's own minimum wage.
Second, I argue that making those laws helps those at the bottom the most - this minimum wage law isn't going to do any favors for those at the bottom.

MoneyCat

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2014, 02:58:43 PM »
I hate what Seattle has done because it makes it so much harder to be elitist and look down on people who are less fortunate than me.

anisotropy

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2014, 03:00:49 PM »
I hate what Seattle has done because it makes it so much harder to be elitist and look down on people who are less fortunate than me.

lol, yes more people are in the poor house now (making 15 to 20 an hour)  !

legacyoneup

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2014, 03:01:27 PM »
Lets all calm down here. Seattle has passed the MW wage hike. We don't need to take sides on this. Lets see how it plays out. Maybe it will work out and raise living standards in that city.

gdgyva

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2014, 03:08:27 PM »
I say good for Seattle.  The great thing about individual places having control over their individual circumstances is that places can try social experiments and we can all learn, rather than just having economists argue over hypotheticals.

Yep, glad WA is not one the many states where the state gov't is making it illegal for municipalities to pass laws like this.  See, the right wing only likes local/small gov't when it benefits the rich and screws over the poor.  Hypocrisy at its worst!   


actually i like small government at ALL times

we have agency after agency that just adds to the crap that washington feeds us (we could lose a bunch and no one would really notice)

i also think we should stop being the world's police force......close most of the bases around the world

leave 5-6 for deployment in case needed (1 europe, 1 africa, 2 asia, 1 n atlantic, 1 pacific)

bring the rest of the guys and gals home.....use them to secure the southern border until we can get a real solution to that issue


gdgyva

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2014, 03:12:34 PM »
Lets all calm down here. Seattle has passed the MW wage hike. We don't need to take sides on this. Lets see how it plays out. Maybe it will work out and raise living standards in that city.

it will raise prices

and the people it is going to hurt the most, no one has even mentioned

our senior citizens who are on fixed incomes

and as you raise wages, prices must go up (you dont think the owners are taking this out of their pocket do you?)

that is who is going to pay the highest price for this change

Eric

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2014, 03:17:56 PM »
our senior citizens who are on fixed incomes

Just who are these senior citizens and how is their income fixed?  It has to be a pretty small subset of senior citizens who survive solely on an annuity that was purchased without inflation protection.  Certainly you don't mean Social Security income, which of course has a COLA.  Unless you're in favor of cutting the COLA out and lowering SS.

actually i like small government at ALL times

Oh, maybe you are then...

CarDude

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2014, 03:19:15 PM »
Lets all calm down here. Seattle has passed the MW wage hike. We don't need to take sides on this. Lets see how it plays out. Maybe it will work out and raise living standards in that city.

it will raise prices

and the people it is going to hurt the most, no one has even mentioned

our senior citizens who are on fixed incomes

and as you raise wages, prices must go up (you dont think the owners are taking this out of their pocket do you?)

that is who is going to pay the highest price for this change

By this argument, we should never raise the minimum wage, ever.

Jack

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Re: Seattle Minimum Wage Set at $15 Per Hour
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2014, 03:30:48 PM »
Not sure about the first part, but the second part is certainly true. In Atlanta, even skilled workers (teachers, police, graphic artists, engineering co-op students, etc.) make less than $15/hour!

Um.. may I ask why skilled people are paid so low?

Because they're willing to accept jobs paying that little, just as how people with no skills would be willing to accept grocery bagger jobs for less than $7/hour, if it were legal to offer them.

The other choice is unemployment.