Saving too much for retirement...

[mistymoney]

from the same research as the previous posting on lack of money and loneliness in old age:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/retirement/meet-the-oversavers-older-americans-who-have-plenty-for-retirement-but-wish-they-d-worked-less-and-vacationed-more/ar-AA1wBOhV?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=4862cbd4a3b1478acc6080b9f64706c2&ei=93

Joshua Winston, 70, did a pretty good job preparing for retirement: He ran two successful veterinary clinics, made smart investments, and lived frugally.

But a week after he retired in May, he was diagnosed with cancer. Now, Winston said, he regrets working such long hours during his career, often missing out on trips and date nights.

[Metalcat]

This yet again points to MMM's strongest point that if you feel deprived, you're doing it wrong.

That said, in careers like vet clinic ownership, it's not as simple as just choosing to work less. The very broad point is well made that a life of deprivation and workaholism will likely lead to regret, but it misses the bigger problem that in some careers, it's unfathomably hard to avoid.

We are in the midst of a veterinarian suicide crisis because that career is so ridiculously untenable. Taking a few more trips doesn't solve a systemic problem, and leaving the career isn't really an option for most because of the sunken cost to become a vet clinic owner in the first place.

People have to feel like they have no options to get to the point of being very professionally successful at their dream career and then feeling like dying is the only way out.

There's something very wrong with a society where the "dream" careers that are considered very "successful" are driving professionals to kill themselves. That's a lot bigger than just being an over saver who didn't go on enough vacations.

[YttriumNitrate]

Based on their ages and amounts saved, it really doesn't seem like these people over-saved by that much.

• Joshua Winston, 70, $3 million
• Ruth Mills, 63, $1 million
• Kirk, 75, $1.1+ million

Saving $10 a day for 45 years will get people in the ballpark of these numbers.

[Louise]

Meh. My husband and I were remarking that we didn't take a vacation for a long time. We had a brief honeymoon, but then didn't take a vacation until many years later when our child was old enough to remember it. I don't feel like I missed out on anything. It set us up for a wonderful future with lots of options. We have zero regrets and have done plenty of stuff.

I read in a book somewhere that if you have a happy life, you don't feel the need to vacate it. I guess that's how I felt. I do feel for the vet though. That is a tough business as a sole proprietor.

At the risk of sounding critical, it's not to late for that 63 y.o. to take a trip to Ireland. I'm not sure what she is physically capable of, but you can still go and enjoy it. Same with the lawyer. So he regrets a trip and a helicopter ride. So what? I'm sure there are many other memories he has made with his kids (at least I hope so!). If not, maybe that's really what he regrets in life.

[Retire-Canada]

If you aim for a 4% Rule-ish retirement plan chances are you will have over-saved and your money will keep growing even as you support your retirement. The problem is you don't know what sequence of returns you are going to get so you can't fine tune your savings that precisely. That said there are those perma-bears who think anything 4% Rule-ish is a foolhardy gamble and they want to save even more and there are folks who are willing [or forced] to retire on a lot less and then adapt to what returns the Market Gods have given them.

I do think folks thinking about retirement planning frequently underestimate the value of their lifeforce/health/time, underestimate the non-monetary failure modes for their retirement, and overestimate the incremental utility of money beyond a reasonable point. Like a lot of areas of life we focus on the things we can easily measure and track so the value of our portfolios takes up a lot of attention while our health, personal relationships and happiness/satisfaction don't get the attention they deserve. There seems to be an underlying assumption that if we have a ton of money the rest of the pieces for a successful retirement will fall into place. That concept doesn't survive much scrutiny.

If I could go back in time I would have saved/invested even more and my past-self would be equally happy because I could teach him how to be more efficient with his spending. More spending does not equal more happiness. He also would be stoked to retire 5+ years earlier.

[Metalcat]

Meh. My husband and I were remarking that we didn't take a vacation for a long time. We had a brief honeymoon, but then didn't take a vacation until many years later when our child was old enough to remember it. I don't feel like I missed out on anything. It set us up for a wonderful future with lots of options. We have zero regrets and have done plenty of stuff.

I read in a book somewhere that if you have a happy life, you don't feel the need to vacate it. I guess that's how I felt. I do feel for the vet though. That is a tough business as a sole proprietor.

At the risk of sounding critical, it's not to late for that 63 y.o. to take a trip to Ireland. I'm not sure what she is physically capable of, but you can still go and enjoy it. Same with the lawyer. So he regrets a trip and a helicopter ride. So what? I'm sure there are many other memories he has made with his kids (at least I hope so!). If not, maybe that's really what he regrets in life.

Facts. I'm very disabled and I spend half the year living in the new world version of Ireland, which is much, much less disability friendly. But I have a great time here even though my function is limited.

Life isn't over in your 60s.

But having worked with many seniors, it's not that they didn't travel, it's as you said, it's the fact that they didn't really live. Travel is a lot of people's proxy for "living." People who struggle to enjoy their lives tend to default to travel as the magic bullet that would make their lives feel satisfying and fulfilling.

So folks who did not live full, rich lives tend to regret not traveling more when they were young. But plenty of folks who did travel a ton while young still end up with the same "I should have lived more" hollowness later in life when taking trips wasn't enough to compensate for an unfulfilling life.

[Dicey]

I love to travel and did so frugally while on the path to FIRE. Since I got married twelve years ago, the way we travel is significantly different. Part of that is due to Covid, family needs, DH's preferences, and the fact that we got a great deal on a fancy, small RV and paid for it with side hustle money. My drive is tempered by the fact that our post-FIRE, at-home life is great. I don't need to splash out on a respite from w-o-r-k, because I have control over how I spend my days.

That said, we've been invited to Ireland in late summer, so I renewed my expired passport, and DH got his first one ever.

I sometimes wonder if the travel industry isn't behind much of this travel angst. Create the desire, then fill the need.

[Louise]

Meh. My husband and I were remarking that we didn't take a vacation for a long time. We had a brief honeymoon, but then didn't take a vacation until many years later when our child was old enough to remember it. I don't feel like I missed out on anything. It set us up for a wonderful future with lots of options. We have zero regrets and have done plenty of stuff.

I read in a book somewhere that if you have a happy life, you don't feel the need to vacate it. I guess that's how I felt. I do feel for the vet though. That is a tough business as a sole proprietor.

At the risk of sounding critical, it's not to late for that 63 y.o. to take a trip to Ireland. I'm not sure what she is physically capable of, but you can still go and enjoy it. Same with the lawyer. So he regrets a trip and a helicopter ride. So what? I'm sure there are many other memories he has made with his kids (at least I hope so!). If not, maybe that's really what he regrets in life.

Facts. I'm very disabled and I spend half the year living in the new world version of Ireland, which is much, much less disability friendly. But I have a great time here even though my function is limited.

Life isn't over in your 60s.

But having worked with many seniors, it's not that they didn't travel, it's as you said, it's the fact that they didn't really live. Travel is a lot of people's proxy for "living." People who struggle to enjoy their lives tend to default to travel as the magic bullet that would make their lives feel satisfying and fulfilling.

So folks who did not live full, rich lives tend to regret not traveling more when they were young. But plenty of folks who did travel a ton while young still end up with the same "I should have lived more" hollowness later in life when taking trips wasn't enough to compensate for an unfulfilling life.

I think you are right about travel being a proxy. I think if you really wanted to go France, you would have made it a priority. I suspect a lot of these regrets are the result of aging, empty nests (for some) and realizing that there aren't that many years left as you thought.

[FIREin2018]

But having worked with many seniors, it's not that they didn't travel, it's as you said, it's the fact that they didn't really live. Travel is a lot of people's proxy for "living." People who struggle to enjoy their lives tend to default to travel as the magic bullet that would make their lives feel satisfying and fulfilling.

So folks who did not live full, rich lives tend to regret not traveling more when they were young. But plenty of folks who did travel a ton while young still end up with the same "I should have lived more" hollowness later in life when taking trips wasn't enough to compensate for an unfulfilling life.

I've been away from my house about 9months this year.
Some were staying long weekends at casinos. The rest were going to other countries.

Yet i feel the hollowness you talk about.
Like i'm just passing time

[WorkingToUnwind]

But having worked with many seniors, it's not that they didn't travel, it's as you said, it's the fact that they didn't really live. Travel is a lot of people's proxy for "living." People who struggle to enjoy their lives tend to default to travel as the magic bullet that would make their lives feel satisfying and fulfilling.

So folks who did not live full, rich lives tend to regret not traveling more when they were young. But plenty of folks who did travel a ton while young still end up with the same "I should have lived more" hollowness later in life when taking trips wasn't enough to compensate for an unfulfilling life.

I've been away from my house about 9months this year.
Some were staying long weekends at casinos. The rest were going to other countries.

Yet i feel the hollowness you talk about.
Like i'm just passing time

We traveled for a year back in 2018, going around north America in a sprinter van. It was the trip of a lifetime and I have amazing pictures, but it was also really challenging because it wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't until I got back home to friends, family, routines, work that I felt truly myself. So yeah, travel is nice but I think it has to be balanced with a generally fulfilling life outside of travel.

[falling leaves]

It's tricky to know when to get off the money making merry-g-round sometimes, and the years can just roll by you.

I had a customer like that, she had saved all her life and planned to travel when she retired. But she'd had polio when she was younger and ran into physical limitations as she got older, so sadly, she only ever went on one overseas trip and that was to the Great Wall of China.

My friend and his wife retired a few years ago and now spend a lot of time travelling. Some of it makes sense, but some of it just looks a bit like, why? Why fly all the way to Portugal to rent a place for 3 months.. they didn't seem like they had an exceptional time.  My friend says "well, got to spend the money as don't know when you're going to go (expire)" ....  fair point, but he could maybe have quit his job a few years earlier.

Myself I ended up in a bit of a 'how long should you stick it out' scenario with my house that I bought 16 years ago. It's in a HCOL city and about 7 years ago the city government started to talk about up-zoning the area. But at the time I was about ready to sell and move closer to family. But the carrot now dangling in front of me was the huge upside if/when/perhaps the city up-zoned my house.

But it's now gone on for 7 years. To complicate things, early on we had a great offer off a developer, then that fell through, but the 'possibility' of it happening 'soon' was there.  But then delays from the city, more delays, delays for environmental reports, groundwater level issues, public consultations x 4....

It made it really hard to jump off that merry-go-round.. because I don't have a ton of money saved up. I raised my kid on my own, travelled all over the place when I was younger, time as an artist, general money mis-manager in my earlier years.

But I could actually have sold the house about 3 years ago at the height of the market and moved near family, invested the rest and lived a life without the gnawing anxiety of feeling like I'm wasting time in the pursuit of something that might or might not even happen.

I look around me at the people I know, and I know mostly an artist/musician/dreamer crowd, and many of them enjoy life on a lot less.

One guy I know is travelling Asia for 6 months, doesn't spend a lot and seems to really enjoy a simple life. Another I know is in Vietnam and bought a used motor scooter and seems to be enjoying life. A guy I know who is a sculptor spends winters in Nicaragua on the beach. None of them spend a lot of money, but they seem to be living it up.

My own father who passed away 5 years ago, he never really saved much for retirement, but he had a bit of a pension and he lived a life of playing live music in Germany and then $40 flights on Ryan air to England where he lived in a house laid on to him by the government.

At his funeral everyone talked about what a big and full life he'd lived, but he didn't have a lot of money. As a side note when he was on his way out he had old girlfriends from all around the globe face-time him blowing him kisses and crying... now that's another kind of wealth, a wealth that money can't buy.

In 2025 I'm selling my house and I'm going to focus on being near family, friendships, health, travel only if It's for my own carefully vetted reasons, less of the anxiety that I've felt from living this life of not following my heart and instead following this nauseating up-zoning possibility carrot... to be real that is going to pay of big time in 2025, but it's a F'ed up kind of way to end up,  sure the pay out will be great but the mental gymnastics I've had to do with myself has been really taxing on my well being and happiness.

We all know there's a price we set for working. We wouldn't want to work for less than what we are worth. But the other parts of life that we just give away... gone and not valued in the way that they should have been. Sacrificing health is a big one, time spent away from loved ones, doing things for money that fuck with your head.

[mistymoney]

It's tricky to know when to get off the money making merry-g-round sometimes, and the years can just roll by you.

I had a customer like that, she had saved all her life and planned to travel when she retired. But she'd had polio when she was younger and ran into physical limitations as she got older, so sadly, she only ever went on one overseas trip and that was to the Great Wall of China.

My friend and his wife retired a few years ago and now spend a lot of time travelling. Some of it makes sense, but some of it just looks a bit like, why? Why fly all the way to Portugal to rent a place for 3 months.. they didn't seem like they had an exceptional time.  My friend says "well, got to spend the money as don't know when you're going to go (expire)" ....  fair point, but he could maybe have quit his job a few years earlier.

Myself I ended up in a bit of a 'how long should you stick it out' scenario with my house that I bought 16 years ago. It's in a HCOL city and about 7 years ago the city government started to talk about up-zoning the area. But at the time I was about ready to sell and move closer to family. But the carrot now dangling in front of me was the huge upside if/when/perhaps the city up-zoned my house.

But it's now gone on for 7 years. To complicate things, early on we had a great offer off a developer, then that fell through, but the 'possibility' of it happening 'soon' was there.  But then delays from the city, more delays, delays for environmental reports, groundwater level issues, public consultations x 4....

It made it really hard to jump off that merry-go-round.. because I don't have a ton of money saved up. I raised my kid on my own, travelled all over the place when I was younger, time as an artist, general money mis-manager in my earlier years.

But I could actually have sold the house about 3 years ago at the height of the market and moved near family, invested the rest and lived a life without the gnawing anxiety of feeling like I'm wasting time in the pursuit of something that might or might not even happen.

I look around me at the people I know, and I know mostly an artist/musician/dreamer crowd, and many of them enjoy life on a lot less.

One guy I know is travelling Asia for 6 months, doesn't spend a lot and seems to really enjoy a simple life. Another I know is in Vietnam and bought a used motor scooter and seems to be enjoying life. A guy I know who is a sculptor spends winters in Nicaragua on the beach. None of them spend a lot of money, but they seem to be living it up.

My own father who passed away 5 years ago, he never really saved much for retirement, but he had a bit of a pension and he lived a life of playing live music in Germany and then $40 flights on Ryan air to England where he lived in a house laid on to him by the government.

At his funeral everyone talked about what a big and full life he'd lived, but he didn't have a lot of money. As a side note when he was on his way out he had old girlfriends from all around the globe face-time him blowing him kisses and crying... now that's another kind of wealth, a wealth that money can't buy.

In 2025 I'm selling my house and I'm going to focus on being near family, friendships, health, travel only if It's for my own carefully vetted reasons, less of the anxiety that I've felt from living this life of not following my heart and instead following this nauseating up-zoning possibility carrot... to be real that is going to pay of big time in 2025, but it's a F'ed up kind of way to end up,  sure the pay out will be great but the mental gymnastics I've had to do with myself has been really taxing on my well being and happiness.

We all know there's a price we set for working. We wouldn't want to work for less than what we are worth. But the other parts of life that we just give away... gone and not valued in the way that they should have been. Sacrificing health is a big one, time spent away from loved ones, doing things for money that fuck with your head.

This really hits home for me, thank you for being so honest here.

I need to really dig into these kinds of thoughts. My time is running out, and I think I need to accept a little more uncertainty on the financial side and start rebuilding my life, and my health.

I do worry about a huge economic downturn, and try to hedge against that. But times awasting.

And not looking forward to returning to work in 2025.

[41_swish]

I have always heard people say, "You will never regret saving that much". That is probably true to an extent, but if you deprive yourself of any fun, it is unsustainable. I did this once to pay of my student loans super-fast and in hindsight I was miserable. However, I am glad that I did it to give me a frame of reference for how to balance aggressively saving and still enjoying life.

[mathlete]

This is something I think about a lot.

Two years ago, I decided to stop saving in retirement accounts because continuing to do so at that rate I was going would have in the 10s of millions by age 60, which would provide a level of spending that I've never even remotely approached. So I switched to saving in a brokerage account instead. Something that could support an early retirement.

In 2024, I sold all the stocks I owned in that brokerage account and switched to cash / bond stuff yielding about 4% or 5%.

I don't know what I'm going to do with that dry powder yet, outside of vague ideas about living a life truer to my values *right now* than waiting even for an early retirement.

I've spoke of this in other threads, but right now, I just can't imagine leaving the workforce while my kids are still under the roof. 2024 has been about asking the question, "how can I make those (under the roof) years the best years of my life, using the resources I have?"

I still haven't settled on an answer, but I'm getting there.

[simonsez]

This is something I think about a lot.

Two years ago, I decided to stop saving in retirement accounts because continuing to do so at that rate I was going would have in the 10s of millions by age 60, which would provide a level of spending that I've never even remotely approached. So I switched to saving in a brokerage account instead. Something that could support an early retirement.

In 2024, I sold all the stocks I owned in that brokerage account and switched to cash / bond stuff yielding about 4% or 5%.

I don't know what I'm going to do with that dry powder yet, outside of vague ideas about living a life truer to my values *right now* than waiting even for an early retirement.

I've spoke of this in other threads, but right now, I just can't imagine leaving the workforce while my kids are still under the roof. 2024 has been about asking the question, "how can I make those (under the roof) years the best years of my life, using the resources I have?"

I still haven't settled on an answer, but I'm getting there.

If you don't mind me asking, what was it about the various withdrawal methods prior to 59.5 for retirement accounts that didn't work well for your situation and made you transition to taxable/other non-retirement vehicles?  I think I started maxing my 401k and Roth IRA a little too late to get to 8 figures (if I worked long enough - which I don't intend to do nor come anywhere close to 8 figures) but the general issue of having too much money in X but you can't touch X until Y or some other difficulty is one that I could find myself in at some point.

Based on your user name, I'm sure you ran the numbers!

So your plan is to:
a) retire early
b) live off taxable brokerage for years until 59.5
c) then after 59.5 withdraw from whatever you need?

[mathlete]

If you don't mind me asking, what was it about the various withdrawal methods prior to 59.5 for retirement accounts that didn't work well for your situation and made you transition to taxable/other non-retirement vehicles?  I think I started maxing my 401k and Roth IRA a little too late to get to 8 figures (if I worked long enough - which I don't intend to do nor come anywhere close to 8 figures) but the general issue of having too much money in X but you can't touch X until Y or some other difficulty is one that I could find myself in at some point.

Based on your user name, I'm sure you ran the numbers!

So your plan is to:
a) retire early
b) live off taxable brokerage for years until 59.5
c) then after 59.5 withdraw from whatever you need?

Yeah so the two major ways I know of for accessing money early (and penalty free) are SEPP and ROTH contribution withdrawals.

My issue with SEPP is that the earlier you retire, the more critical it becomes to really nail your withdrawal number. If you retire at 55, not a big deal. If you retire at 45, you'd better hope your number is good for 15 years. My issue with ROTH is that those are my most valuable retirement dollars, and the ones that would benefit the most from sitting there the longest.

And yes, your abc is my general plan. Prior to having kids, I was on target for FIRE at around 42. I could still *maybe* make that happen, but after having kids, to me, I think having a job at least until 50 (when my kids are out of the house) is a good idea. There are big things you can do for your kids with a white collar salary, especially if you've already got your retirement accounts squared away.

The most likely of these big things on the board for us would be

1.) relocating to a more expensive, but more walkable part of the country, with better access to nature
2.) making sure they can go to the type of college they want to without worry about paying for it

I'm a little mixed on item 2 because I went to a fairly anonymous state school and turned into a career superstar and so I firmly believe that success is more about making good use of your time and resources while at school rather than *which* school you went to. But I don't want to lock my kids into living life 100% the way I did.

In any case, I want my savings to primarily be available for these kinds of lifestyle events, and the remaining balance leftover, I can retire early on. All of that is a lot easier if the money is in places with fewer strings attached.

[Ron Scott]

Joshua Winston, 70, did a pretty good job preparing for retirement: He ran two successful veterinary clinics, made smart investments, and lived frugally.

But a week after he retired in May, he was diagnosed with cancer. Now, Winston said, he regrets working such long hours during his career, often missing out on trips and date nights.

That’s a sad story I am unfortunately familiar with. A buddy and colleague retired at 55 and died of a heart attack a week later.

We cannot predict these things. All we can do is prepare for likely events and rainy days.

If you die early, did you work too long? I dunno. Is the unspent $$ helping the family?

If you live a healthy life into your 90s did you retire too early? Maybe some extra money would have made a real difference in the last few years.

Who’s to say?

[wageslave23]

Saving for retirement is just like playing poker. Just because won the hand, it doesn't mean you made the right decision. Likewise, just because you lost the hand, doesn't mean you made the wrong decision.  You play the odds and weigh the risks and benefits, then live with the outcome. If you retire early and die with a lot of money, it doesn't mean you oversaved, it just means you got lucky with your market returns - that's a good thing. 

Also, dead people don't have regrets - they're dead. So I don't worry about dying early.

[Ron Scott]

Saving for retirement is just like playing poker. Just because won the hand, it doesn't mean you made the right decision. Likewise, just because you lost the hand, doesn't mean you made the wrong decision.  You play the odds and weigh the risks and benefits, then live with the outcome. If you retire early and die with a lot of money, it doesn't mean you oversaved, it just means you got lucky with your market returns - that's a good thing. 

Also, dead people don't have regrets - they're dead. So I don't worry about dying early.

👆

What he said.

[flyingaway]

I've been away from my house about 9months this year.
Some were staying long weekends at casinos. The rest were going to other countries.

Yet i feel the hollowness you talk about.
Like i'm just passing time

Same here. In the U.S., we travel around casinos. They provide almost free hotel rooms (used to be totally free, but now they charge taxes, resort fees, etc.) In return, we use the money to play slots and "pay" the casinos.

We travel to overseas several times a year (to 20 countries and territories in 2024) and plan more in 2025. But honestly speaking, travelling at 60 years old is no longer the same as in my 20s~40s. I just hope it is still better than doing it in my 80s.