Frugality and Minimalism

[dachs]

Hello there! I wondered if there are any minimalist people on this forum and how they arrange both minimalism and frugality. As I have experienced, those two philosophies won't really work at the same time.

As a frugal person, you would want to own things (which you bought used and for a nice price) in order to make life easier and spend less money for it. For example, a bread making machine. As a minimalist, you try to own as little as possible which will lead to spending more money on some things because you'll have to rent things or sell stuff after you used it if you won't use it in the next year (but maybe in two).

In my case my laptop screen doesn't work anymore and I bought an external one which works great, but as a result I have three more objects on my desk (keyboard, mouse, screen) instead of only one if I had just bought a new laptop or repaired the screen of my current one, which would have cost a lot more than the external screen. Also, I own a printer and can print cheaper than going to the local copy shop. That's anti minimalism but makes sense if I want to spend less money.

So, how can you combine those philosophies as well as possible? They both have in common that owning and buying more things won't make you happy. But apart from that, they don't really work together.

What do you think?

[ender]

Stuff stresses me out.

[Thegoblinchief]

It comes down to priorities, but I struggle to think where a minimalist with even a little foresight would overspend. If they were mindlessly trying to get to an arbitrary number of possessions, sure.

I think you're conflating frugality with the deal-minded consumer who has to buy things because they are on sale.

[Savvy Saver]

I think they can work together and I think of myself as both frugal and a minimalist, but I guess it has to do more with how you define them. As I see it, minimalists only own what they absolutely need. If you truly "need" a printer to be productive, that doesn't exclude you from being a minimalist just because you have one. As a self-proclaimed minimalist, I think I would have bought a new laptop for 2 reasons, 1- I wouldn't be as productive having to be tied to a stationary screen, and 2- I definitely wouldn't want another piece of equipment laying around. I probably would have sold the laptop on craigslist or given it to someone who didn't have a computer. We just got a new laptop in our house, which is a decent one, for $300. The screen must have cost at least $100. The loss in productivity from an external screen would exceed the additional $200 spent for a new laptop, at least in my case, so the purchase would affirm my frugality. A minimalist who was not frugal may not have gone after the best value on a new computer. Many minimalists are not frugal. They don't possess much, but they spend a lot on the few possessions they do have. They don't always consider value as much as simplicity. As I see it, they way they compliment each other is that frugal people don't spend more than they need and minimalists don't possess more than they need. So, as long as you only buy what you truly "need" and you go out of your way to find the best value for your money, you can be both. I'm interested to hear other thoughts on this. If your interested in more ideas on getting the best value on the things you buy, visit [MOD EDIT: Spam link removed.]

[LennStar]

I would also say that minimalistic and frugal are not opposites but more very-near ends of 2 lines. They only differ at the extremist poles.

For example a frugal person would have a hammer to hang up pictures bought in garage sales to have a nicer home while the ultra-minimalist has no pictures and only gets a hammer when in need of repairs of his barrel (2000year-reference).

For the "normal" person minimalistic moves are mostly the same as frugal ones: get less stuff, but better quality for the things you use.
The bread machine example saves money, adds independence, health and fun if used much. If you would use it only 1 time a year, both the frugal and minimalistic person would not have one.  I have one, the size bothers me, but I really like it, not for the looks or for the "having-feeling" but the knowledge that I can make good, diverse bread and eat a fresh one even when no baker is open.


Minimalism does not mean you de-stuff yourself so much that you need double the time to get your basic things done. It means you throw out everything that slows you down, either bodily or mentally. If you are not moving once a week, then a few possesions are fully OK. If you can pack and unpack everything in one half-day and in leasure, you are minimalisticly fully OK ;)
At the same time, if you have a 2-screen-computer and a Laptop that is also OK from minimalistic and frugal view if that is what brings your money in. A faster computer (SSD!) can scrape off 20-30 minutes from your workday. If that costs you 500$ more in a year... thats 4$ per saved hour. If you earn more, it was no money waste but good investment.
Only the barrel-minimalists would say they dont get a second screen if they are working faster with 2. And as I always say: the extreme ends are seldom the best ones ;)

[Ascotillion]

I think frugality and minimalism can both be defined NOT as extremes, contrary to popular belief, and that's what they share.

Most minimalists don't live in a plain white room with no furniture and every possession fitting in a single bag.

Most frugal people (probably) don't subsist only on grass and tapwater, scrounging for pennies and walking for five hours to avoid a $2 train ticket (although I have done the latter!)

Minimalism and frugality (to me) are both about emptying your life of things that don't matter to make room for the things that do. They crossed over beautifully when I sold my old video game collection for $500 which immediately went into savings :)

[cashcrop]

very good observation.  i think it depends on space.  i buy what i need and i consider buying it for quite a long time before actually doing it.  i hold onto things if i have space for it.  i'm not a pack rat though.  i keep durable goods. 

if i lived in an RV or one of those tiny houses that have limited space and need limited home work then i'd have a lot less.  just depends on space for me.

every purchase though goes through lots of thought before i drop a dime on it.  i consider borrowing and renting before purchase, for example. 

[ReverendRN]

As I see it, they way they compliment each other is that frugal people don't spend more than they need and minimalists don't possess more than they need.

Well said.

Take shoes, for example. It's easy for a woman to accumulate a lot of shoes -- or at least, a lot of women seem to do so -- but a minimalist woman would seek to own only as many shoes as she needs to carry out her life in an efficient way. What would make a minimalist woman frugal is not necessarily to only own one pair of cheap shoes, but to buy shoes that will last for several years, so that the cost of wearing them divided by the number of years they last brings the cost lower than buying newer cheaply made shoes repeatedly.

I have a lovely pair of well-soled, wool-lined, black winter boots that just finished their sixth winter of keeping my feet warm and dry while I wait for buses and bike and walk in the cold. So the $120 investment has turned out being better that buying and wearing out a cheap pair of $20 boots every winter. (Or, worse, buying 3 pairs of cheap boots every winter, so they'll match my different outfits!) By next winter, it will only have cost me $17.14 a winter to keep my feet warm and dry.

[smalllife]

"Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful." - William Morris

I tend to think that minimalism and frugality intersect quite often.  No useless crap accumulating, few if any impulse buys, only that which enhances your life, etc. 

One example: my kitchen.   We do a lot of cooking from scratch and like the kitchen to be inviting.  Yet the kitchen has no purely decorative items - there are two trivets decorating the wall when not in use, a hanging pot rack, and open shelves with a mason jar pantry.  The food is the decoration, no need for double the possessions.  Same concept can be applied to a food garden (not the vegetable rows most people think about, but an ecosystem in your backyard) or open storage throughout the house. 

Minimalism in a general sense is about owning less, having more purposeful possessions, and tangentially (because not everyone subscribes to this idea) reducing your impact on the earth.  The latter fall right in line with frugality or the fruits of frugality, and the former - with a little forethought - dovetails nicely.

[Gerard]

I don't think minimalism and mustachianism/frugality are opposite poles of a single line... more like separate lines that somewhat converge (i.e., most minimalist things end up being mustachian and vice versa).
The OP's bread maker example is a useful illustration. A minimalist would probably not have one. Some mustachians might. Other mustachians might learn how to make bread without a machine, which is easy and fast once you've done it a few times. I make five-ingredient no-knead bread once or twice a week, using the same bowl for mixing and rising. So in this case, at least, minimalist/mustachian > mustachian > sucka (minimalist or not).

[SEdude]

Less stuff means less buying, and less buying means more money. While there are counter examples to minimalism and frugality being alike, I think they (perhaps unintentionally) end up accomplishing similar things.

[Jamesqf]

The loss in productivity from an external screen would exceed the additional $200 spent for a new laptop, at least in my case, so the purchase would affirm my frugality.

I don't get that at all.  LOSS of productivity from an external screen?  I use mine in a dock, with external monitor, keyboard, & mouse about 95% of the time (essentially whenever I'm at home), and am at least twice as productive than when I work on the bare laptop.

As for the original question, I pretty much go with the Morris quote.  So I don't, for instance, have a bread machine, because it's simpler and less expensive to make bread by hand.  In fact, I have some herb bread almost ready for the oven as I type...

[Squirrel away]

As I see it, they way they compliment each other is that frugal people don't spend more than they need and minimalists don't possess more than they need.

Well said.

Take shoes, for example. It's easy for a woman to accumulate a lot of shoes -- or at least, a lot of women seem to do so -- but a minimalist woman would seek to own only as many shoes as she needs to carry out her life in an efficient way. What would make a minimalist woman frugal is not necessarily to only own one pair of cheap shoes, but to buy shoes that will last for several years, so that the cost of wearing them divided by the number of years they last brings the cost lower than buying newer cheaply made shoes repeatedly.

I have come to the same conclusion recently.:) I am trying not to spend money on clothes in 2014 but have realised that I'm going to need to buy more quality clothing and footwear items if I want to have a minimalist wardrobe.

[galliver]

I think minimalism is a personality trait. It is a state of finding serenity in scarcity, and/or perhaps difficulty in maintaining a larger-than-absolutely-necessary collection of items. I think I've known one true minimalist; he was definitely uncomfortable with having extra items belonging to him, and to the contrary found comfort in discarding or giving away what he saw as extra. I think he would have happily borrowed everything except 2 sets of clothes, laptop, and toothbrush, if it was socially acceptable. In contrast, I think most people find comfort in ownership...not necessarily of "as much as possible" but of more than the barest necessities. I think they can consciously choose to minimize, but either they're over their ideal number of belongings, or they are fighting their personality rather than giving in to it (or both).

I think frugality is a lifestyle choice of putting money where it matters to *you* and not where it is expected. For a minimalist, the frugal choice is to repair/replace the laptop and it is a cheap choice to get external peripherals (because the extra items cause a psychological toll although the cost is lower). For those who aren't bothered by the extra items, the externals might be a frugal choice (depending on other values...is mobility a factor? Will the laptop break soon? etc) I feel like a non-frugal minimalist might buy bakery bread; a frugal one might make do with lower-quality bread, or not buy bread at all. A non-frugal minimalist might rent a car to go hiking in that place he wants to visit, a frugal one would tag along with friends to where they're going, or hitchhike, or find a place accessible by public transit, or not go.

Basically it comes down to them being different dimensions of a person, and any combination is possible, although I would guess they run together more often than not...

[dcheesi]

The loss in productivity from an external screen would exceed the additional $200 spent for a new laptop, at least in my case, so the purchase would affirm my frugality.

I don't get that at all.  LOSS of productivity from an external screen?  I use mine in a dock, with external monitor, keyboard, & mouse about 95% of the time (essentially whenever I'm at home), and am at least twice as productive than when I work on the bare laptop.

that has been my experience as well, but others may find more value in the portability of the laptop. The ability to work on the go, not being tied down to a desk,  etc.

[Jamesqf]

that has been my experience as well, but others may find more value in the portability of the laptop. The ability to work on the go, not being tied down to a desk,  etc.

Sure, and all that is a big part of the reason why my main work machine is a laptop, so that I can take it places.  50% of my at-home productivity is still better than zero productivity.  But oh, how I wish someone would build a laptop with a standard keyboard!

That's really my position: neither extreme minimalism nor extreme frugality, but optimizing things.  I could, with some effort, go to a minimalist extreme and do everything on a tablet - it would be possible, though slow & painful.  Or I could be extremely frugal, and keep using the 10-15 year old desktop.  But neither would optimize my convenience & productivity.

[fallstoclimb]

Minimalism and frugality (to me) are both about emptying your life of things that don't matter to make room for the things that do.

This. 

[GuitarStv]

Less stuff means less buying, and less buying means more money. While there are counter examples to minimalism and frugality being alike, I think they (perhaps unintentionally) end up accomplishing similar things.

I used to live with a guy who would buy and then throw out shoes every year.  He was the same shoe size as me.  When I got married and moved out I took all the shoes he threw away (about 8 pairs) with me in a big black garbage bag.  It's been five years, and I've been slowly working through his pairs of shoes ever since.

Minimalism?  Nope.
Frugal?  Yep.

There's a difference between buying a ton of shit you don't need and stockpiling useful stuff when it becomes available.  Minimalism doesn't really see this difference though.

Then there's the example of the garage full of tools.  I may not need to use the tools more often than a couple times a year . . . but they save me a tremendous amount of time when I need them.  Because I purchase tools when they're on sale it's usually cheaper in the long run for me to buy them for occasional use over many years than pay high rental costs each time the need arises.

Minimalism and frugalism can be related, but often are not.  Hoarding and frugalism can be related, but often are not.  The stuff that you own needs to find a happy balance between too much (hoarding) and too little (minimalism).

[Spartana]

I consider myself both a frugal person AND a minimalist. Minimalism includes not just your "stuff" (or lack of stuff) but also the way you live. A minimalist can choose to live in a tiny one bedroom apt or studio - or just rent a room - and not have to deal with the added costs to buy and upkeep a house or condo or hire people to fix things. Therefore they probably never need to own or even rent anything to do a maintenance job like lawn care, painting, etc... They probably don't need a lot of furnishings either so can save there even if the few things they buy are pricy - or not, may buy them used. Since hey don't have a lot of items, they don't need a bigger space for storage so can live in small, less expensive spaces. They may not need a garage either if they are car-free. That saves money on buying a vehicle and insurance expenses as well as maintenance and fuel (and maybe paid parking lots or that garage space) so that occasionally renting a car to use can actually be cheaper.  Food (and even bread and fresh fruit and veggies) can be bought cheaply at places like the 99 Cent Only store. Replacement items for things that break (and with fewer things, there will be less to break or need care) can be bought as needed at a thrift store or when it's on sale. Etc...

[GreenSheep]

I see that I'm late to the party here, but I just came across this post while doing a little searching to make sure I wasn't about to reinvent a wheel. And of course, the topic I was thinking of bringing up has already been discussed. :-) So thank you, especially those who mentioned shoes.

This can be generalized to anything that is well made and lasts a long time, but the catalyst for my concerns about minimalism and mustachianism living happily under one roof was my shoe collection. I do have more "non-work" shoes than I should, and I'm working on that (is it wrong that I was almost happy the other day when a flip-flop finally broke?!), but the real problem is work shoes. About five years ago, pre-Mustachianism for me, I bought nine (yes, I know, I know) pairs of Dansko and Sanita clogs for work, all on sale on Amazon ($120-->$50ish). ("This will be fun," I thought. "Look at all the pretty colors," I thought. "I'll just return the ones I don't like," I thought. How stupid. And the weird thing I was never that kind of shopper before and never have been since.) Problem is they're such high quality that I don't know if I will be able to wear them all out over the course of my career, and they take up more space than I would really like to give them. I don't think I'd get much in terms of cash for used shoes. So... donate them to someplace or keep them and try to wear them out over the next 8 years? (Or what I think will be 8 years, if my FIRE plans go well.)

What do the rest of you do with well-made things that will last "forever," can't be sold for very much, and are still useful, but are more than you need? I guess I need to get over my stinginess and just donate them with the hope that someone who really needs them will find them.

[Bracken_Joy]

I see that I'm late to the party here, but I just came across this post while doing a little searching to make sure I wasn't about to reinvent a wheel. And of course, the topic I was thinking of bringing up has already been discussed. :-) So thank you, especially those who mentioned shoes.

This can be generalized to anything that is well made and lasts a long time, but the catalyst for my concerns about minimalism and mustachianism living happily under one roof was my shoe collection. I do have more "non-work" shoes than I should, and I'm working on that (is it wrong that I was almost happy the other day when a flip-flop finally broke?!), but the real problem is work shoes. About five years ago, pre-Mustachianism for me, I bought nine (yes, I know, I know) pairs of Dansko and Sanita clogs for work, all on sale on Amazon ($120-->$50ish). ("This will be fun," I thought. "Look at all the pretty colors," I thought. "I'll just return the ones I don't like," I thought. How stupid. And the weird thing I was never that kind of shopper before and never have been since.) Problem is they're such high quality that I don't know if I will be able to wear them all out over the course of my career, and they take up more space than I would really like to give them. I don't think I'd get much in terms of cash for used shoes. So... donate them to someplace or keep them and try to wear them out over the next 8 years? (Or what I think will be 8 years, if my FIRE plans go well.)

What do the rest of you do with well-made things that will last "forever," can't be sold for very much, and are still useful, but are more than you need? I guess I need to get over my stinginess and just donate them with the hope that someone who really needs them will find them.

I tend to gift these things directly- it helps me feel like I'm losing out less, somehow. This would be an example of something I would put on Buy Nothing Group, or maybe donate to a nursing school- there are many low-income students that can use the help- ex, I donated my student scrubs once I graduated.

[sstants]

I wouldn't worry about whether a particular purchase is 'minimalist' or not. If you have a need for it, buy it and get the best price. As long as you don't confuse need and want, I feel like people should end up owning the right amount of stuff for them.

The key is that people's needs are different. I enjoy having a decorated home with things hanging on the walls, that is a low level 'need' of mine so I try to decorate frugally. Someone who is more minimalist may not feel like that adds to their life and will enjoy their bare walls.

[Thegoblinchief]

I'd keep the damn shoes and rejoice that my shoe costs will be $0 for the foreseeable future. Why give away something you WILL use just because it's not minimalist? Narrow the colors down that are out, store the rest.

[mozar]

I have a lovely pair of well-soled, wool-lined, black winter boots that just finished their sixth winter of keeping my feet warm and dry while I wait for buses and bike and walk in the cold.

Where do I get these?

[cb1504]

Is there a law in minimalism that says you only get to have 1 thing on your desk?  Relax and do what works for you.  It's your life, it's your comfort level.  If you have to have 1 thing, have 1 thing.  If 3 things works for you, have 3 things.  Minimalism and frugality can work together, if you let them.  I recently replaced my home (broken) laptop with a desk top (it's under the desk) for frugal reasons.  But my desktop now has a keyboard, screen and mouse.  Kinda busy, but I got used to it.  It came with 2 screens and the spare is stored away in case I need a spare.

Best wishes and remember to be grateful that you have a computer that works.

[FatCat]

I think some people get too hung up on minimalism that it defeats the purpose. With less stuff, you have less to worry about. But if you're worrying about getting rid of what few items you have left it's just causing stress. Have the amount of things on your desk that you want. Try not to worry too much about it.

And you can definitely be minimalist without being frugal at all. I know someone who hates anything she considers cheap or frugal. She buys nice things to use a few times then throw into the trash. Even if she knows she'll need it again in a few months. She'd rather buy it again when she needs it to avoid having to store it. Plus she'll have a new one instead of a used one when she decides she needs it again. She said storing things to use again later is for poor people and hoarders. She calls herself minimalist. She doesn't care about environment. She just doesn't like owning lots of things when you can just buy them when you need them and throw them in the trash when you're done.

[clarkfan1979]

I have a thicker laptop from 2010 with a battery that doesn't really work so it always needs to be plugged into the wall. I could pay $500 for a new laptop with a kick ass battery that doesn't need to be plugged in. However, the thickness of the laptop and cord running to the outlet does not justify $500 in my mind. If I am ever at a coffee shop using my computer, I look super funny because I am one of the only people still looking for an outlet. I like it because it reminds me that I am different and have different goals than most.