Author Topic: Is FIRE making you complacent?  (Read 4560 times)

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Is FIRE making you complacent?
« on: May 03, 2021, 03:22:02 PM »
hello all,

I've been toying since July about going FIRE with about £600k and for years I've been letting down my (work) portfolio and skillset as I was approaching it (my initial FIRE number was £750k).

But then, when my contract ended on September it was still the lockdown so I decided it was best to save a bit more... It was tough as hell to find another contract due to years of complacency... I finally got a new contract 6 months later at a lower rate due to my out of date skill and portfolio.

I've lost £30k in savings (I save £5k/month when I work) due to these 6 months out of work which I feel deeply like money wasted for nothing... Never in all these years, I've been unwillingly out of contract for so long..


These days, I keep thinking about Buffett quote on complacency:
Quote
What kills great businesses is complacency.

As well as this from his 2014 letter:
Quote
My successor will need one other particular strength: the ability to fight off the ABCs of business decay, which are arrogance, bureaucracy and complacency. When these corporate cancers metastasize, even the strongest of companies can falter.


Complacency has been gradually killing my ability to generate wealth. It feels like a great risk as well, if things come to worse (ie. Hyper-inflation or forced interest rate increase), I may have to market myself back for a job. And if I'm not competitive, I may end up becoming a low earner or something of that sort which would significantly delay any hope of future FIRE.


So I decided not to be complacent unless I have at least 1 skill allowing me to generate wealth and £1M in total net worth.


Do you agree that FIRE makes us complacent? What do you do against the risk of needing to work again and be either un-employable or be forced to take on a much lower position job?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 03:29:12 PM by helloyou »

MoneyTree

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 301
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • Journal - The Best Time to Plant a MoneyTree
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 04:15:55 PM »
Part of your FIRE calculations should consider the risk of outdated skills and lower employability. If you aren't ok with that and you aren't willing to take on a lower wage job if needed, then don't FIRE until you have enough to make you feel comfortable with the risk.

It's as simple as that.

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 04:44:12 PM »
Yes its a good point.... but unless I have like £5M net worth, I'd always have this fear of ending up back to the market. But then getting £5M would mean a lifetime of work!

Missy B

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 606
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 05:38:13 PM »
If fear has been a motivator, and having a larger stash removes much of that fear, then without the thing that has been motivating and driving you, you could end up complacent.

But other things cause complacency, and plenty of complacent people have no stash :)

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2021, 07:52:06 PM »
Is it possible you could use some of your time post FIRE to develop new monetisable skills that you actually enjoy?

Ie, still be developing and earning (though likely at a lower rate than before) such that you keep up with inflation and keep marketable, just in a way you enjoy and with flexibility?

Out of interest, what work do you do now?

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17235
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2021, 08:26:41 PM »
No, I never let myself get complacent professionally. I'm retired now and I still keep my skills and network sharp in the event that I ever need or want to earn again.

I would have to have an absurd amount of money to get complacent about my ability to earn.

I'm not even satisfied with just having one professional skill, I don't feel comfortable unless I feel like I have at least a half dozen jobs that I could jump into without too much barrier. I like being diversified.

Zikoris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • Vancouverstachian
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2021, 09:07:40 PM »
Maybe FIRE has made me complacent, though maybe I would have ended up that way anyway - I don't remember ever giving a shit about career before I heard about FIRE, and I continue to give zero shits now. I am extremely fortunate that I have understanding management who let me recycle goals year after year on my annual reviews. I am more than happy to vegetate in my role while stashing away 60-70% of my income.

If I had to ever go back to work, my expenses are low enough that even the most part time minimum wage job would easily cover me. It honestly wouldn't even be a hardship, working part time at some fun place, like the local vegan shop, or some sleepy bookstore, or whatever. So I just don't see it as any sort of real problem worth worrying about.

wageslave23

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1749
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 09:35:18 PM »
I think in general if you are an intelligent, quick learning person, who people like - you can always find a job.  Worst case is its a lower paying job and you work your way up after a little while. So no, like zikoris, a minimum wage job is fine and I don't think it would be very hard to get a lot higher paying job - assuming I couldn't go back into my original field of work.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17235
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 10:14:32 PM »
Maybe FIRE has made me complacent, though maybe I would have ended up that way anyway - I don't remember ever giving a shit about career before I heard about FIRE, and I continue to give zero shits now. I am extremely fortunate that I have understanding management who let me recycle goals year after year on my annual reviews. I am more than happy to vegetate in my role while stashing away 60-70% of my income.

If I had to ever go back to work, my expenses are low enough that even the most part time minimum wage job would easily cover me. It honestly wouldn't even be a hardship, working part time at some fun place, like the local vegan shop, or some sleepy bookstore, or whatever. So I just don't see it as any sort of real problem worth worrying about.

Yeah, I should clarify that I love to work, so that's why I am so keen on keeping my options open. It's not paranoia, I enjoy keeping my skills fresh and my options open.

If I didn't, I just wouldn't worry about it much. I would just spend so little that it was rarely an issue.

There's no effing way I would do work I don't like.

Freedomin5

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6462
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 12:16:28 AM »
No, being close to FIRE doesn’t make me complacent. To do my job well, I need to keep my skills sharp, and sometimes I need to take on new projects that allow me to develop new skills. These soft skills are portable in the event that I need to get a new job. While I may not be competitive for the *best* jobs in my field, I should be able to get a job in my field, as my years of work experience does have value.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 12:46:25 AM »
I worked hard to do a good job, the last year at work. It was internal motivation of delevering good work and not wanting to let down my employer and coworkers. I haven't kept up with anything ever since, as I don't want to go back to a similar stressful job. If needed, I would rather do some parttime low stress job.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22281
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2021, 02:20:02 AM »
Perhaps the real problem is that your 'stache isn't really big enough for you to call yourself FIRE with full confidence.

To answer your question, hell no, I don't feel complacent. Eight years on, I live a rich, full life doing whatever the fuck I want. I don't worry about money, and it's still somewhat shocking to have more money than I ever dreamed was possible. A fat 'stache has also given me an amazing amount of confidence and a lovely feeling of buoyancy.

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 02:57:43 AM »
Is it possible you could use some of your time post FIRE to develop new monetisable skills that you actually enjoy?

Ie, still be developing and earning (though likely at a lower rate than before) such that you keep up with inflation and keep marketable, just in a way you enjoy and with flexibility?

Out of interest, what work do you do now?

I work as UX designer and it has its perk as it's usually decently interesting.

And yeah the goal is to have at least 1 marketable skill post FIRE to minimise risk.

Whats interesting, is that 10 years ago I would have never dreamed being able to save £60k/year. And yet, now that I'm able to do that, it feels so fucking slow and taking forever to reach fire, especially if I have to have a decent margin of safety.

Imagine if I wanted a decent margin of safety and reach £2M for fire..  then I'd have to work like 25 more years.... assuming I'd be able to keep my current earning power by then of course.

But by then, I would just be at normal retirement age! I may as well to plan to keep working until I die lol
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 04:10:35 AM by helloyou »

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2021, 07:11:10 AM »
Er, yes.  I admit to complacency in my job since I have become FI.  I'm very good at what I do and generally enjoy doing it, but I have lost interest in learning every new bit of technology that comes along and that is supposed to be the next big thing.  I also haven't been polishing my resume or responding to recruiters.  I used to go on job interviews regularly just as practice to keep my interviewing skills up and to see what else is out there, but I haven't done that for the past few years now.  In theory one or both of us could lose our jobs tomorrow and we'd be fine, but I'm planning to work for at least the next few years or for however long my job doesn't annoy me overly much.

Locksmith

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 07:44:29 AM »
I'm a year and a bit out from FI. It's difficult to say whether approaching FIRE has made me professionally complacent, or my professional complacency has led me to look at FIRE as an "out".

I say this because I used to be very driven and ambitious earlier in my career and, although I saved a lot and envisioned getting out of work a little earlier than most, I wasn't actively pursuing FIRE. Fast forward on a few years and I've reached the realistic top of the profession for my niche a few years ago, and I have become pretty complacent and a bit bored. I've got enough experience to coast through most of the work, and I'm not looking to prove myself for the next role up, so now I'm looking for the exit door to free myself up for new challenges outside this field.

I guess the main difference with OP is that my niche is now much in demand post-Brexit, and I'm being sought for different job opportunities more or less monthly. I don't say that just to sound smug, so much as it baffles me that the more disengaged I am becoming as I coast in towards FIRE, the more people seem to want me to work for them!

CodingHare

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 443
  • Age: 32
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 10:42:40 AM »
Er, yes.  I admit to complacency in my job since I have become FI.  I'm very good at what I do and generally enjoy doing it, but I have lost interest in learning every new bit of technology that comes along and that is supposed to be the next big thing.  I also haven't been polishing my resume or responding to recruiters.  I used to go on job interviews regularly just as practice to keep my interviewing skills up and to see what else is out there, but I haven't done that for the past few years now.  In theory one or both of us could lose our jobs tomorrow and we'd be fine, but I'm planning to work for at least the next few years or for however long my job doesn't annoy me overly much.

Seconded.  I learn enough to do my job well, and as long I keep getting promoted I won't increase that amount.  I think to me, being complacent is checking out of the rat race to make myself a .0005% more efficient employee.  I'd rather spend that time doing things I actually enjoy instead of being more employable.  Wanting out of focusing only on the parts of life that make me a valued employee is my entire drive to FIRE.

But I am definitely a "work to live" and not a "live to work" type.  I'd rather be out hiking and knitting on my porch than working, and I see work as a necessary evil to enable my lifestyle.

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 09:04:27 PM »
I'm a year and a bit out from FI. It's difficult to say whether approaching FIRE has made me professionally complacent, or my professional complacency has led me to look at FIRE as an "out".

I say this because I used to be very driven and ambitious earlier in my career and, although I saved a lot and envisioned getting out of work a little earlier than most, I wasn't actively pursuing FIRE. Fast forward on a few years and I've reached the realistic top of the profession for my niche a few years ago, and I have become pretty complacent and a bit bored. I've got enough experience to coast through most of the work, and I'm not looking to prove myself for the next role up, so now I'm looking for the exit door to free myself up for new challenges outside this field.

I guess the main difference with OP is that my niche is now much in demand post-Brexit, and I'm being sought for different job opportunities more or less monthly. I don't say that just to sound smug, so much as it baffles me that the more disengaged I am becoming as I coast in towards FIRE, the more people seem to want me to work for them!

Playing hard to get - works every time!

When I semi retire in a couple of months I'm toying with the idea of updating my linkedin job status to something like 'Retired but open to opportunities' just to see if it changes the sort of people/opportunities I'm approach by. Probably it won't, but who knows.

flyingaway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 09:19:02 PM »
There is a reason that people have been talking about baristas or Walmart greeters as potential jobs when retirement goes in a wrong direction.

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 09:21:34 PM »
Is it possible you could use some of your time post FIRE to develop new monetisable skills that you actually enjoy?

Ie, still be developing and earning (though likely at a lower rate than before) such that you keep up with inflation and keep marketable, just in a way you enjoy and with flexibility?

Out of interest, what work do you do now?

I work as UX designer and it has its perk as it's usually decently interesting.

And yeah the goal is to have at least 1 marketable skill post FIRE to minimise risk.

Whats interesting, is that 10 years ago I would have never dreamed being able to save £60k/year. And yet, now that I'm able to do that, it feels so fucking slow and taking forever to reach fire, especially if I have to have a decent margin of safety.

Imagine if I wanted a decent margin of safety and reach £2M for fire..  then I'd have to work like 25 more years.... assuming I'd be able to keep my current earning power by then of course.

But by then, I would just be at normal retirement age! I may as well to plan to keep working until I die lol

If you like what you do but still want to retire, any way you could find contract gigs such that you only end up working 2-4 months of the year? Ie, you get all the freedom but still keep in the loop industry wise such that you could return full time if needed?

As a side note, pretty sure there are a ton of crypto related projects that would currently be dying (and possibly paying v well) for a good UX person haha...

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 09:23:02 PM »
There is a reason that people have been talking about baristas or Walmart greeters as potential jobs when retirement goes in a wrong direction.

Because they are ostensibly super low stress - ie, you get a bit of money coming in to top up your portfolio or cover some expenses without the crushing stress and reduction in quality of life that often accompanies high paid / corporate gigs.

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2021, 03:02:59 AM »
If you like what you do but still want to retire, any way you could find contract gigs such that you only end up working 2-4 months of the year? Ie, you get all the freedom but still keep in the loop industry wise such that you could return full time if needed?

As a side note, pretty sure there are a ton of crypto related projects that would currently be dying (and possibly paying v well) for a good UX person haha...

If I only work few months a year I'm pretty sure my profile would be way less attractive. First for the gap in my CV and 2 because the skillset is evolving very fast and I'll have a good chance of missing the train.

To some extent, if I would be happy to take on low paying UX roles, then I could do that. But then I may as well take on any low pay job as well.

Even though the role is in demand, it's quite a saturated market and there is load of competition. I've seen plenty of crypto project a while ago, but they are either startup (with low pay base and crypto tokens) or larger companies (eg. Binance, Coinbase) who can take advantage of their popularity to decrease the salary. The few gigs who paid decently had hundred of applicants so I didn't get to be selected. There is no free lunch!

Ah, also in the US it pays better it's true but it's limited to US applicants and I'm not Us citizen. I wish there would be an easy way!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 03:07:38 AM by helloyou »

Plina

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2021, 03:55:45 AM »
I want to do a good job as long as I work, so I would not say complacent. But as my stash grows I care less about all the crap that comes with work. If I don’t want to go to a conference I have skipped it. I pick my fights more carefully. It is the same thing when you are leaving your position. Why bother to try to stop some things as it will not affect you.

In a couple years time I will start my own consulting business. It will allow me to choose my projects and work less for same pay. It I want to go back it will also ensure there is no gaps in my resumé. If you pop up in the right places with some frequency, you can give the impression that you are doing a lot more then you do.

NorthernIkigai

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
  • Connoisseur of Leisure
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2021, 04:32:41 AM »
It's difficult to say whether approaching FIRE has made me professionally complacent, or my professional complacency has led me to look at FIRE as an "out".

Haha, this is such a good description of what happened to me! I ended up not going for a career in academic research, because I wanted to step out into the real world (in some academic fields it's possible to do combine these, but not in mine). So I got a real job, and was kind of meh about it.

I mean, all my jobs have been interesting and rewarding in their own way, but never enough in the long run, even with promotions. My employers have always been more than happy with me, and I've always worked for organizations that I've been proud to represent. But still, it's just work, it's not something I identify myself through.

I had always been saving but didn't realize FIRE was an option. Once I did, the world of working started seeming even more annoying. I'm still far from my FIRE goal, but cannot imagine working for another 26 years, which is what my national pension provider thinks I will be doing. That number is only useful as a guide to how long a mortgage I might get, since the bank would also think I'd be working until the "normal" age... I just need to get the mortgage while I'm still working, and then quietly keep paying it afterwards.

Mr. Green

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4485
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2021, 05:13:41 AM »
I wanted FIRE to make me complacent. I didn't like my career and a four-year absence (FIRE) still hasn't brought back even a hobby interest in much of anything computer-related. I think my career experience probably ruined IT/Software Engineering for me. So I have no plans to go back to that anyway if I were to find myself in need of money. If FIRE has done one thing for me, it has made me realize that I'm more tenacious and intelligent than I give myself credit for. So I'm sure I will find a solid way to earn more income if my back was against the wall. My confidence in my ability now means I'm not afraid of that scenario any longer.

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2021, 01:59:39 AM »
If you like what you do but still want to retire, any way you could find contract gigs such that you only end up working 2-4 months of the year? Ie, you get all the freedom but still keep in the loop industry wise such that you could return full time if needed?

As a side note, pretty sure there are a ton of crypto related projects that would currently be dying (and possibly paying v well) for a good UX person haha...

If I only work few months a year I'm pretty sure my profile would be way less attractive. First for the gap in my CV and 2 because the skillset is evolving very fast and I'll have a good chance of missing the train.

To some extent, if I would be happy to take on low paying UX roles, then I could do that. But then I may as well take on any low pay job as well.

Even though the role is in demand, it's quite a saturated market and there is load of competition. I've seen plenty of crypto project a while ago, but they are either startup (with low pay base and crypto tokens) or larger companies (eg. Binance, Coinbase) who can take advantage of their popularity to decrease the salary. The few gigs who paid decently had hundred of applicants so I didn't get to be selected. There is no free lunch!

Ah, also in the US it pays better it's true but it's limited to US applicants and I'm not Us citizen. I wish there would be an easy way!

All fair points.

Regarding the crypto, yes the pay in fiat is pretty low on the startup front, but choose the right project and the tokens you get paid in can rapidly become astonishingly valuable. Naturally it is speculative in nature and no guarantees, but the cycles in that industry are pretty predictable and if you position yourself well now then in a few years time you could be set for life a lot more comfortably than you currently are (worst case is you are still working but just at a lower paygrade, which presumably is ok if you already thinking of FIRING soon). I think being semi-FIRED is actually super well positioned to take advantage of the low pay but decent potential for massive upside.

Case in point, a good friend of mine was doing some contract work for (at the time) a relatively small project in late 2019 / early 2020. He took a low rate of pay and was paid in the project's native tokens because he believed in the team and the direction of the project. He was paid a number of tokens worth approx USD 5k at the time - 16 months later they are worth upwards of 500k and are also generating yield returns of 20% plus per annum. Extreme example of course, just saying that during the next great crypto bear market (which is coming at some point soon) there will likely be big long term opportunities with those who dig around to find them.

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2021, 02:01:49 AM »
I mention the above example as my friend, while quite techy, is essentially a UX person and had quite his full time job the year before (without enough money to retire on).

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2021, 02:32:26 AM »
Yeah working for some kind of start up with share options is something I'd definitely consider... assuming I get to the right one.

Other than that, for crypto asset that can grow 1000x I don't need to work there to benefit from it. I can as well put in $5k and hope it grows without the problem of lower salary.

I have a friend who put £500 in some obscure crypto asset and it now worth £12k. The gain was absolutely bonker...

Dreamer40

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Location: Portland, OR
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2021, 02:14:32 PM »
The whole point of FIRE for me is letting go of the pressure to always be professionally amazing. I want to be complacent and at peace.

If I have a financial problem down the road, I trust my abilities to figure something out. I’m smart. I’ll find an opportunity and learn whatever skill it requires. I could cut my budget way back if I needed to go into survival mode.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17235
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2021, 02:25:37 PM »
The whole point of FIRE for me is letting go of the pressure to always be professionally amazing. I want to be complacent and at peace.

If I have a financial problem down the road, I trust my abilities to figure something out. I’m smart. I’ll find an opportunity and learn whatever skill it requires. I could cut my budget way back if I needed to go into survival mode.

Funny, the less I needed money, the harder I worked, but that's because I got really picky about the work I did and only did what I enjoyed, so I had more and more capacity to absolutely slam my days with work, because it was energizing.

Shortly before I retired I was running at an absolutely insane capacity. It was a lot of fun. In my last year, I was doing shit that most of my colleagues will never get to do.

All because I just stopped wasting my time on shit I didn't want to do.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2021, 12:50:12 AM »
The whole point of FIRE for me is letting go of the pressure to always be professionally amazing. I want to be complacent and at peace.

<...>

The whole point of FIRE for me is letting go of the pressure to always look professionally amazing.

DH and I both haven't been wearing anything else than outdoor clothing since we both retired. Only if we visit a doctor/dentist or so, we dress up a bit. Earlier we only used that kind of clothes in the weekend.

Dreamer40

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Location: Portland, OR
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2021, 08:00:19 AM »
The whole point of FIRE for me is letting go of the pressure to always be professionally amazing. I want to be complacent and at peace.

<...>

The whole point of FIRE for me is letting go of the pressure to always look professionally amazing.

DH and I both haven't been wearing anything else than outdoor clothing since we both retired. Only if we visit a doctor/dentist or so, we dress up a bit. Earlier we only used that kind of clothes in the weekend.

Lol. In my last 5 years as an attorney, I started wearing jeans to the office every day and short sleeved shirts that showed my tattoos. Sometimes I wore hiking pants. Always running shoes. Nobody ever said a word. I wore a suit to court because the courts still had that as a rule. But it was an ugly cheap suit from Macy’s. I hope to never wear it again but it’s still stashed in the back of a closet.

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2021, 08:05:19 AM »
All because I just stopped wasting my time on shit I didn't want to do.

This is how I've started feeling too.

I left a job recently after a year because it wasn't a good fit. I was doing great. I just didn't like the environment.

I didn't give any fucks about how it'd be perceived and in fact took a paycut to do so.

I'm now much happier. I'm also in a niche I love, which means I am getting more opportunities for cool/awesome work than I ever thought possible.


Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17235
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2021, 08:19:01 AM »
All because I just stopped wasting my time on shit I didn't want to do.

This is how I've started feeling too.

I left a job recently after a year because it wasn't a good fit. I was doing great. I just didn't like the environment.

I didn't give any fucks about how it'd be perceived and in fact took a paycut to do so.

I'm now much happier. I'm also in a niche I love, which means I am getting more opportunities for cool/awesome work than I ever thought possible.

I too took a pay cut because I dropped from full time to part time.

It was just a switch in my head, taking such a huge paycut for the sake of my happiness and well being. Like, I already walked away from big numbers, why feel the pressure anymore?

Then by not feeling pressured, I got so much more productive that I ended up by the end making more working 3 days a week than I had working full time. By limiting what I did to what I was extremely good at, I was infinitely more efficient.

The other docs hated it on the days I wasn't there because I picked up everyone else's slack and everyone ran on time, and I was so profitable that no one questioned if I said "no" to doing anything, because the more I said "no" the better things were for everyone.

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2716
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2021, 07:20:30 PM »
If you like what you do but still want to retire, any way you could find contract gigs such that you only end up working 2-4 months of the year? Ie, you get all the freedom but still keep in the loop industry wise such that you could return full time if needed?

As a side note, pretty sure there are a ton of crypto related projects that would currently be dying (and possibly paying v well) for a good UX person haha...

If I only work few months a year I'm pretty sure my profile would be way less attractive. First for the gap in my CV and 2 because the skillset is evolving very fast and I'll have a good chance of missing the train.

To some extent, if I would be happy to take on low paying UX roles, then I could do that. But then I may as well take on any low pay job as well.

Even though the role is in demand, it's quite a saturated market and there is load of competition. I've seen plenty of crypto project a while ago, but they are either startup (with low pay base and crypto tokens) or larger companies (eg. Binance, Coinbase) who can take advantage of their popularity to decrease the salary. The few gigs who paid decently had hundred of applicants so I didn't get to be selected. There is no free lunch!

Ah, also in the US it pays better it's true but it's limited to US applicants and I'm not Us citizen. I wish there would be an easy way!

All fair points.

Regarding the crypto, yes the pay in fiat is pretty low on the startup front, but choose the right project and the tokens you get paid in can rapidly become astonishingly valuable. Naturally it is speculative in nature and no guarantees, but the cycles in that industry are pretty predictable and if you position yourself well now then in a few years time you could be set for life a lot more comfortably than you currently are (worst case is you are still working but just at a lower paygrade, which presumably is ok if you already thinking of FIRING soon). I think being semi-FIRED is actually super well positioned to take advantage of the low pay but decent potential for massive upside.

Case in point, a good friend of mine was doing some contract work for (at the time) a relatively small project in late 2019 / early 2020. He took a low rate of pay and was paid in the project's native tokens because he believed in the team and the direction of the project. He was paid a number of tokens worth approx USD 5k at the time - 16 months later they are worth upwards of 500k and are also generating yield returns of 20% plus per annum. Extreme example of course, just saying that during the next great crypto bear market (which is coming at some point soon) there will likely be big long term opportunities with those who dig around to find them.

Wait, what?   Cryptocurrency startups are paying their employees a small salary in fiat money and a bonus in crypto dollars (or whatever the company calls their 'currency')?

gooki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2917
  • Location: NZ
    • My FIRE journal
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2021, 01:56:08 AM »
Hey fellow UX professional contractor. I've totally become complacent in some areas as I approached fire.

Less professional development. My current manager even asked me if there was anything I wanted to do, and I drew a total blank.

I do however always keep my portfolio up to date, and jump into new tools. Because I've effectively hit my minimum FIRE number I'm in no way concerned about breaks between contracts. It also helps that I'm confident in selling my services, and don't take low paying gigs.

I'm surprised to hear there's market saturation in the UK. Lots of opportunity down here during COVID due to no one being able to bring in designers from overseas.

CrabbitDutchie

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 218
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2021, 03:23:40 AM »

I'm surprised to hear there's market saturation in the UK. Lots of opportunity down here during COVID due to no one being able to bring in designers from overseas.

Disclaimer I'm not the OP and not a UX designer. Given that the OP was previously saving far more than many of us in the UK could ever dream of earning, perhaps it's just the extremely lucrative contracts with hyperinflated salaries that are saturated.

 No point in paying someone a London wage if you can get the same talent outside London and no-one is coming to an office anyway.
New legislation also just came in around contractors which makes it less attractive to both employers and individuals so trying to find something at the level of previous earning may not have been possible even with an up to date skill set and portfolio.

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2021, 09:42:59 AM »
Hey fellow UX professional contractor. I've totally become complacent in some areas as I approached fire.

Less professional development. My current manager even asked me if there was anything I wanted to do, and I drew a total blank.

I do however always keep my portfolio up to date, and jump into new tools. Because I've effectively hit my minimum FIRE number I'm in no way concerned about breaks between contracts. It also helps that I'm confident in selling my services, and don't take low paying gigs.

I'm surprised to hear there's market saturation in the UK. Lots of opportunity down here during COVID due to no one being able to bring in designers from overseas.

Yes there is saturation and I don't think it's just in the UK. I've seen around few stories of UX graduates having trouble to get a job, and there are now even forums and coaching groups helping them finding jobs.

One of the results is that employers are able to ask for more and pay for less. Now the majority of contracts available are asking for UX/UI (in the past it was either one or the other) AND at a lower rate than 2 years ago (the rate dropped significantly after COVID).

I have a couple of colleagues UX who took courses to get up to date doing UI design in order to catch up with the market, even though they have 5-10 years of exp.

I didn't do that. I didn't try to learn UI. I didn't try to get more experience in UX research either. So now I can only apply to a small niche of contracts making it quite difficult to find something.

I've been doing that for years, but it looks like it's reaching the breaking point now...

What sort of rate could a UX earn in NZ? Maybe I should apply there if work dries up where I am lol


@CrabbitDutchie, my rate is not overinflated, it's actually below the median rate so that I can secure a contract. You can see a benchmark here (https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contract.aspx?q=ux&l=&id=0&p=6) with median day rate between £450 and £550.
I take contracts from £450/day in order to secure something...

These rates are actually standard in the IT contract market. You can check around. We are paid a premium because we don't have job security, we are a disposable workforce for a company.

gooki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2917
  • Location: NZ
    • My FIRE journal
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2021, 01:15:33 PM »
$75-$80 per hour is the typical IT contracting rate in or medium cost of living city. Specialist in high demand areas can charge more.

My contracting rate is $95 a hour for long term projects (6 months plus, I'm onto my third contact with this firm). With. A short term rate of $110 per hour.

All prices are in NZ dollars, and are before 15% sales tax.

I'd estimate the market split is
40% UX
40% UX and UI / product designer
10% UI
10% UI and front end development

And
70% are full time rolls
30% are contracts

One of the things I do, is have searches saved on all the popular job sites, so I get emails ever day with what's out there.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 01:46:09 PM by gooki »

helloyou

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2021, 01:35:30 PM »
$75-$80 per hour is the typical contracting rate in or medium cost of living city.

My contracting rate is $95 a hour for long term projects (6 months plus, I'm onto my third contact with this firm). With. A short term rate of $110 per hour.

All prices are in NZ dollars, and are before 15% sales tax.

I'd estimate the market split is
40% UX
40% UX and UI / product designer
10% UI
10% UI and front end development

One of the things I do, is have searches saved on all the popular job sites, so I get emails ever day with what's out there.

Ah thanks. The rate look similar to the UK. I got to look for internarional gig as well. With some luck maybe I can get a NZ remote gig!

lukebowles

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Is FIRE making you complacent?
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2021, 08:23:18 PM »
If you like what you do but still want to retire, any way you could find contract gigs such that you only end up working 2-4 months of the year? Ie, you get all the freedom but still keep in the loop industry wise such that you could return full time if needed?

As a side note, pretty sure there are a ton of crypto related projects that would currently be dying (and possibly paying v well) for a good UX person haha...

If I only work few months a year I'm pretty sure my profile would be way less attractive. First for the gap in my CV and 2 because the skillset is evolving very fast and I'll have a good chance of missing the train.

To some extent, if I would be happy to take on low paying UX roles, then I could do that. But then I may as well take on any low pay job as well.

Even though the role is in demand, it's quite a saturated market and there is load of competition. I've seen plenty of crypto project a while ago, but they are either startup (with low pay base and crypto tokens) or larger companies (eg. Binance, Coinbase) who can take advantage of their popularity to decrease the salary. The few gigs who paid decently had hundred of applicants so I didn't get to be selected. There is no free lunch!

Ah, also in the US it pays better it's true but it's limited to US applicants and I'm not Us citizen. I wish there would be an easy way!

All fair points.

Regarding the crypto, yes the pay in fiat is pretty low on the startup front, but choose the right project and the tokens you get paid in can rapidly become astonishingly valuable. Naturally it is speculative in nature and no guarantees, but the cycles in that industry are pretty predictable and if you position yourself well now then in a few years time you could be set for life a lot more comfortably than you currently are (worst case is you are still working but just at a lower paygrade, which presumably is ok if you already thinking of FIRING soon). I think being semi-FIRED is actually super well positioned to take advantage of the low pay but decent potential for massive upside.

Case in point, a good friend of mine was doing some contract work for (at the time) a relatively small project in late 2019 / early 2020. He took a low rate of pay and was paid in the project's native tokens because he believed in the team and the direction of the project. He was paid a number of tokens worth approx USD 5k at the time - 16 months later they are worth upwards of 500k and are also generating yield returns of 20% plus per annum. Extreme example of course, just saying that during the next great crypto bear market (which is coming at some point soon) there will likely be big long term opportunities with those who dig around to find them.

Wait, what?   Cryptocurrency startups are paying their employees a small salary in fiat money and a bonus in crypto dollars (or whatever the company calls their 'currency')?

Well it depends on the project and work involved, but yes it is fairly common that if someone wants to be paid via an allocation of the project's native token that it can be arranged. Somewhat similar to being paid in equity in a startup.