The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: bob999 on May 17, 2018, 05:15:11 AM
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Hi all,
I have been ready MMM for about five-six years now. I was fairly ignorant about investing and spending before that. I mean I had investment properties and saved about 30% of my salary but I was carefree with spending money. In the last six years my net worth has skyrocketed and my (our) saving rate is around 70%.
The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
I feel now that we have a 'target number' to achieve FI we are poor because we need to save XX% in order to get there. The 'target' is now a reminder of the journey ahead and the effort required.
Anyways, this is all part of the process I guess. Anyone else feeling poor while getting rich?
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I wouldn't say I ever felt "poor", only that I felt I was always being very frugal. I don't even take vacation get-aways, but I've always been that way and can't say MMM has changed a thing for me. As the people around me tended to be spendypants, I knew I would be better off in the long run. And I am, with a 70% to 80% savings rate year after year, I'm at 63X barebones, well past FI and hope to FIRE in 2019 while those other people will continue working.
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Hi all,
I have been ready MMM for about five-six years now. I was fairly ignorant about investing and spending before that. I mean I had investment properties and saved about 30% of my salary but I was carefree with spending money. In the last six years my net worth has skyrocketed and my (our) saving rate is around 70%.
The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
I feel now that we have a 'target number' to achieve FI we are poor because we need to save XX% in order to get there. The 'target' is now a reminder of the journey ahead and the effort required.
Anyways, this is all part of the process I guess. Anyone else feeling poor while getting rich?
You are not poor, you are making a choice to get rich instead of act rich. You can't do both. You could dial back the savings a little if you are getting burned out and feel you miss some of the activities you used to do, but do it intentionally. Mindless spending will only make you feel rich for a short time.
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Yes. And for me, I think it's like what you said... before when I was spending $20-$50 here and there, that was it. That was the number. $20-$50 blown. The end.
Now when I DON'T spend the $20-$50 it's because I need it to save for a much larger number... my 1.2mil. And THAT number makes me feel poor because I'm not there yet and that $20-$50 is "barely" getting me there.
It's mental gymnastics. I have much more saved now than I did a year ago, but a year ago I felt like I had more money. And the above is why I think my brain is doing that.
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I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
They are eliminating future freedom and you realize it. It is akin to locking yourself in a cage. Would you congratulate someone for locking themselves in a cage?
You are looking at all the immediate gratification that you can get and cannot internalize the long term gain. I think most normal people have that. Me too.
I guess what has helped me is that I've had to move a few times. Have you ever moved? All that junk you've accumulated either has to be moved or jettisoned. I've looked at some of that junk and the thought crossed my mind, "I didn't use this. The money is gone." I try to remember that prior to every purchase. I am less successful with food, but I try to ask the question, "Does my body need this?"
Do you think after you have purchased your freedom by giving up those cups of coffee that you will still have regrets?
It certainly is a difficult mental adjustment. Hopefully, you will receive some good answers here. You will be helping other people than yourself.
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It's hard to see the forest for the trees.
For many people, even those pursuing financial freedom, it's easy to get caught up in the day-to-day because each drop in the bucket seems so irrelevant. That $20 is 0.00002% of your $1M saved. If you don't have the right perspective it's easy to get upset with yourself for denying that purchase.
But when you're out of the woods and free to do what you want, your future self will be thanking your present self. Hedonic Adaptation or something like that.
The only advice I can give is to try and shed the FOMO/Frustration and find a place (internally) you can go where you can re-center yourself with your goal.
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The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
You've used the buzz words that are culturally acceptable here and you've expressed a negative response to others who have spent in a way that you don't agree with etc, etc... You feel poor and constrained maybe....not sure, only you can say that.
You don't seem very happy with these feelings.
Must be uncomfortable.
Has it occurred to you that the whole culture of LBYM and efficiency and careful spending is a means to an end...but really it is meant to create a happy lifestyle as it's result. Now....right now. Not just as pent up, holding your breath, waiting to have yet more money yet more frugality yet more abstinence.....
It's foolish to engage in the judgmental BS that is so often wallowed in here. Who cares? You groove to your life and leave them to theirs.
You see, a good portion of all this assumes a lengthy and healthy future. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way and looking back, doing some extravagant and risky things might have been prescient decisions. What those things might be is very personal and not for others to judge.
Sometimes people here embrace the notions in such an extreme manner that they miss the whole point and create what becomes a somewhat uncomfortable existence. Particularly when they see others in their family or workplace or friend space enjoying based on spending which is against their MMM cult religion. Only in that they've made it that way not because MMM was ever meant to be that.
Nothing is guaranteed and time is the most valuable asset. It takes some life maturity, experience and self awareness to be able to identify when one has taken something to an extreme. Emotional discomfort might be an indication.
I enjoy reading all that has been shared here by Pete in the beginning and others. But make no mistake about it, I don't take my cues from MMM. I take ideas and insight and learning and apply them to the my life if they resonate. So much is just common sense and many here if they are already frugally inclined are pretty much in agreement and aren't going to need to make big life changes. For those who have the come to MMM moment sometimes they go overboard like anyone who has been reformed.
JMHO
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Yes absolutely. It's important to realize it will never be enough if you don't have the right attitude. Do you think $20 will suddenly become easier to spend when you are finally done accumulating, leave your job and the markets are having a rough patch?
Without going too far down the rabbit whole with the philosophy and psychological aspect of this a simple if somewhat superficial fix is to set yourself a monthly allowance that almost needs to be spent and you should be guilt free about it. Viewing every dollar spent as a blow against your long-term goals is a very unhealthy way to look at it.
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Yes. And for me, I think it's like what you said... before when I was spending $20-$50 here and there, that was it. That was the number. $20-$50 blown. The end.
Now when I DON'T spend the $20-$50 it's because I need it to save for a much larger number... my 1.2mil. And THAT number makes me feel poor because I'm not there yet and that $20-$50 is "barely" getting me there.
It's mental gymnastics. I have much more saved now than I did a year ago, but a year ago I felt like I had more money. And the above is why I think my brain is doing that.
I used to think that you had to make big investment decisions (e.g. buy investment property) and the $20-$50 didn't really fit into that model of thinking. When I learnt about index funds I realised that even $10 buys me 'freedom'. Every penny counts. So now I compare spending on X versus buying freedom.
I guess that has been a big shift in my thinking.
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The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
You've used the buzz words that are culturally acceptable here and you've expressed a negative response to others who have spent in a way that you don't agree with etc, etc... You feel poor and constrained maybe....not sure, only you can say that.
You don't seem very happy with these feelings.
Must be uncomfortable.
Has it occurred to you that the whole culture of LBYM and efficiency and careful spending is a means to an end...but really it is meant to create a happy lifestyle as it's result. Now....right now. Not just as pent up, holding your breath, waiting to have yet more money yet more frugality yet more abstinence.....
It's foolish to engage in the judgmental BS that is so often wallowed in here. Who cares? You groove to your life and leave them to theirs.
You see, a good portion of all this assumes a lengthy and healthy future. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way and looking back, doing some extravagant and risky things might have been prescient decisions. What those things might be is very personal and not for others to judge.
Sometimes people here embrace the notions in such an extreme manner that they miss the whole point and create what becomes a somewhat uncomfortable existence. Particularly when they see others in their family or workplace or friend space enjoying based on spending which is against their MMM cult religion. Only in that they've made it that way not because MMM was ever meant to be that.
Nothing is guaranteed and time is the most valuable asset. It takes some life maturity, experience and self awareness to be able to identify when one has taken something to an extreme. Emotional discomfort might be an indication.
I enjoy reading all that has been shared here by Pete in the beginning and others. But make no mistake about it, I don't take my cues from MMM. I take ideas and insight and learning and apply them to the my life if they resonate. So much is just common sense and many here if they are already frugally inclined are pretty much in agreement and aren't going to need to make big life changes. For those who have the come to MMM moment sometimes they go overboard like anyone who has been reformed.
JMHO
+1 Great post!
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The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
You've used the buzz words that are culturally acceptable here and you've expressed a negative response to others who have spent in a way that you don't agree with etc, etc... You feel poor and constrained maybe....not sure, only you can say that.
You don't seem very happy with these feelings.
Must be uncomfortable.
Has it occurred to you that the whole culture of LBYM and efficiency and careful spending is a means to an end...but really it is meant to create a happy lifestyle as it's result. Now....right now. Not just as pent up, holding your breath, waiting to have yet more money yet more frugality yet more abstinence.....
It's foolish to engage in the judgmental BS that is so often wallowed in here. Who cares? You groove to your life and leave them to theirs.
You see, a good portion of all this assumes a lengthy and healthy future. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way and looking back, doing some extravagant and risky things might have been prescient decisions. What those things might be is very personal and not for others to judge.
Sometimes people here embrace the notions in such an extreme manner that they miss the whole point and create what becomes a somewhat uncomfortable existence. Particularly when they see others in their family or workplace or friend space enjoying based on spending which is against their MMM cult religion. Only in that they've made it that way not because MMM was ever meant to be that.
Nothing is guaranteed and time is the most valuable asset. It takes some life maturity, experience and self awareness to be able to identify when one has taken something to an extreme. Emotional discomfort might be an indication.
I enjoy reading all that has been shared here by Pete in the beginning and others. But make no mistake about it, I don't take my cues from MMM. I take ideas and insight and learning and apply them to the my life if they resonate. So much is just common sense and many here if they are already frugally inclined are pretty much in agreement and aren't going to need to make big life changes. For those who have the come to MMM moment sometimes they go overboard like anyone who has been reformed.
JMHO
Yes, I have used 'intentional' and 'travel' buzz words but honestly that was our first big change. We made a list of everything we spend money on and decided to reduce spending on eating out etc and increase spending on holidays because we didn't have to have any regrets. The FI goal is important but we had to weigh that against 'future regret of not doing XYZ'.
It is difficult to get the balance right.
"Has it occurred to you that the whole culture of LBYM and efficiency and careful spending is a means to an end...but really it is meant to create a happy lifestyle as it's result. Now....right now. Not just as pent up, holding your breath, waiting to have yet more money yet more frugality yet more abstinence....."
This has struck a cord with me. Thank you.
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I read somewhere that "You can be rich or appear to be rich, it takes too much money to be both". I choose to be rich, it's a choice you make!
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Yes absolutely. It's important to realize it will never be enough if you don't have the right attitude. Do you think $20 will suddenly become easier to spend when you are finally done accumulating, leave your job and the markets are having a rough patch?
Without going too far down the rabbit whole with the philosophy and psychological aspect of this a simple if somewhat superficial fix is to set yourself a monthly allowance that almost needs to be spent and you should be guilt free about it. Viewing every dollar spent as a blow against your long-term goals is a very unhealthy way to look at it.
No, I think it will actually get harder to spend when you have spent a decade or more controlling spending to achieve FI. Its not like I don't spend any money but I think I now cannot justify spending money on things (that I used to spend money on) because I think that they are a waste, no matter how much money I have.
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It's important to keep a sense of perspective and to be happy about the balance between short term and long term wants. The kid sitting waiting for the second marshmallow is experiencing a lot more hunger than the kid who just ate the first one. They're also hungrier than they would have been if no-one had even mentioned marshmallows. The important thing is that they can acknowledge that hunger for what it is and put up with it to get the bigger prize.
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Yes absolutely. It's important to realize it will never be enough if you don't have the right attitude. Do you think $20 will suddenly become easier to spend when you are finally done accumulating, leave your job and the markets are having a rough patch?
Without going too far down the rabbit whole with the philosophy and psychological aspect of this a simple if somewhat superficial fix is to set yourself a monthly allowance that almost needs to be spent and you should be guilt free about it. Viewing every dollar spent as a blow against your long-term goals is a very unhealthy way to look at it.
No, I think it will actually get harder to spend when you have spent a decade or more controlling spending to achieve FI. Its not like I don't spend any money but I think I now cannot justify spending money on things (that I used to spend money on) because I think that they are a waste, no matter how much money I have.
I know exactly how you feel - and have been trying to combat this myself. I think this is an important aspect to address rather than to ignore or to pretend that it is a good thing. If every pack of gum comes down to a 40 year compound interest opportunity cost for most people this is not enjoyable or healthy.
I think really what needs to be done is to set a realistic long-term goal, and then once you are on track to meet it you can relax - unless you are just a short period away you shouldn't be viewing this as a race to give up everything for the next 10 years.
Set a long-term goal, include in that long-term plan monthly amounts that you don't have to account for. If you are on track - go nuts, don't beat yourself up over $20.
Without a realistic view of where you want to be as in a realistic long-term goal making some concessions for the here and now, simply "having as much money as I can as quick as possible" is just an itch that can never be scratched. No different than mindless consumption only you are accumulating money instead of objects.
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bob999,
Every time I decide to wait for dinner at home instead of getting takeout, I feel powerful. I don't feel deprived.
When I make the decision to forego that cute but outrageously priced dress and wear the perfectly good dresses I already have, I feel powerful. I don't feel deprived. My "internal tape" is telling me how much more I'm going to enjoy having that money for travel or to build my stache. I've gotten to where I can tell when I'm going to regret passing something by for more than that day. If it's something I really want and it will bring me happiness for a relatively long time, sometimes I buy it. But if it's frippery like cable TV or a new phone, or in my case, a new-to-me car, I feel much better about using that money to build my stache (at least, until my car shows signs of dying).
However, if you *feel* you're making yourself poor by saving, take a look at what you're deciding not to buy. It may be that some small portion of that, or a particular thing, is something that will bring you lots of joy in the moment, like a beer out with a buddy every once in a while. If you are saving 70%, that is quite a badass savings rate. I would suggest you look at what spending actually makes you happy for longer than it takes to drink a beer. Memories with friends, for instance, would make me happy for longer. Sometimes a beer isn't just a beer.
Everyone does need to find their balance. Money decisions in my life are made using some logic and some emotional honesty. Good luck finding yours. The journey should be something that makes you feel empowered, kind of like exercise. Yeah, it's tough doing that third set of squats, but I feel like I'm doing something good for myself. I hope you get into a groove that makes you feel good while building your future as well.
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I was just digging into some old MMM articles yesterday and ran across this one, which I think is very relevant to this discussion:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/
To have a good and meaningful life, you need to overcome your insatiability. Most people, at best, spend their lives in a long pursuit of happiness. So today’s successful person writes out a list of desires, then starts chasing them down and satisfying the desires. The problem is that each desire, when satisfied, tends to be replaced by a new desire. So the person continues to chase. Yet after a lifetime of pursuit, the person ends up no more satisfied than he was at the beginning. Thus, he may end up wasting his life.
The solution, the Stoics realized, is to learn to want the things you already have, rather than wanting other things.
I'm not saying it's an easy shift - but when you are able to make the shift in your perception, the feeling of deprivation and sacrifice will not only diminish, it will be replaced with a feeling of luxury and satisfaction.
Like anything else (i.e. healthy eating, exercise, organization, time management) our psychological outlook is a constant work in progress. We may lose focus and fall into old habits every now again - and that's okay, so long as we work to get back to where we want to be.
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I think I get what you're saying. Saving massive amounts of money (really saving any money) requires you to live a low income lifestyle, so even though it's not true (we have both a high income and a high net worth, so rich by both standards), we have to adjust our mental models to being "poor" (not having money to burn) in order to achieve the goals we've set for ourselves. We are rich, but we act poor.
On the flip side, modern American culture is all YOLO and LBeyondYM. The cultural norm is to spend (at least) as much they make. They are poor, but they act rich.
As a subculture doing the exact opposite thing as the dominant culture it makes our choices feel even more extreme than they really are. Basically, everyone around us makes us feel poor because outward displays of spending are so much more obvious.
Sometimes it's all a mental thing for you (the family member with the big SUV) and you just need to become ok with it and understand deep down that just because they have a "nicer" car than you and the culture views that as a sign that they're rich and you're poor doesn't mean it's true, or you need to decide that you want to be the cultural definition of rich and put yourself on a more conventional path. Unless you want to really throw it all out the window you'll still look less "rich" than you could look (notice I didn't say "be"), but the difference will be smaller so you won't feel as poor.
Sometimes it's an outward thing. The "nice" version of this is the family member who is just "worried" about you. They think savings is great and all, but they want to make sure you "enjoy yourself" a little. Never mind the fact that what they have in mind might be something you really wouldn't enjoy, and the free activity you're doing instead is something you enjoy.
The funny thing is this comes from both sides of the economic spectrum. On the one hand people who are actually poor making spending choice we would never make so they will never dig themselves out of the hole (my family). This is usually where the outward displays of being rich when they're really not come from. On the other hand people who are actually rich (income and assets) yet are still working past even traditional retirement age (my wife's family). This is usually where the concerned "enjoy yourself" comments usually come from.
Basically you've got reminders of how much you could be spending from people who spend more than you despite having less, and pity for you from people who can and do spend more than you because they've decided to chart a more conventional path.
Of course, then you come around the forums here and find people who really are richer than you are, so then you feel poor even within your subculture :-).
I think there are some people who genuinely can't think of anything (or any experience) they would add to their life no matter what it cost or how much they had. This is really impressive, and I have a lot of things that mainstream culture values that would fall into this category for me, but if you're not zen-buddhist-month-FIRE like this, then I think in some ways you've just got to accept that you'll always feel just a little bit poor. You'll either reach true contentedness where there is nothing you would add to your life (period, end of sentence), or you'll reach the point (which you probably already have) where there's nothing you'd add to your life given the constraints within which you live. I think the second one is nearly universal (accept the few truly content).
Maybe the FIRE subculture could actually be viewed as a kind of continuum between "I want everything and buy everything I possibly can" and "I want nothing that I don't already have." The further towards true contentedness you are, the less poor you'll need to feel to get to and stay at FIRE. Basically, the more you actually don't want deep down if you're really honest with yourself, the less you have to decide to sacrifice. The things you really do want at some level are what make you feel poor. By want I don't mean things you would choose to purchase, but rather things you really can't afford to purchase (a private jet) and things you've decided aren't worth giving up your other goals to purchase (the fancy car).
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I don't know who said it, but I keep this thought in mind to help stay grounded...
"Poor people stay poor by acting rich. Rich people stay rich by acting poor."
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There is no nobility in self deprivation, nor is FIRE a worthy goal if you are genuinely miserable while getting there/after you get there.
I agree that we should strive for being happy with what we have, but you shouldn't expect to snap your fingers one day and change your entire outlook on life. Make progress towards being happy with "less" every day, but don't stop living the life you want to live.
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Been on a vacation lately? For me, visiting natural wonders pushes money to the very back of my mind. I'm sure the exercise from hiking/walking helps, too.
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Nah, never feel poor, but occasionally I feel like I'm living paycheck to paycheck -- but only because the saving is automated and what I have left over I get to spend! I don't budget. I save what I need to save, and I spend the rest, so I never feel like I'm depriving myself.
As others have said, the FIRE goal is a worthy objective, but you have to do some living in the here and now, because no man is guaranteed tomorrow. If tomorrow you suddenly got a terminal cancer diagnosis, would you feel like you hadn't really lived life to the fullest to that point? I want to live life to the fullest now AND have my freedom later (and by later I mean sooner than normal).
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You feel more poor and unhappier because you feel like you're making compromises. To restore balance, you're going to need to shift your perspective in one way or another. Remember that this isn't a contest and you don't have to hit some arbitrary savings amount or total spending # to achieve your goals. Define your goals while taking the good principles you already know.
I agree that you shouldn't be congratulating people who make idiotic purchases, but you also shouldn't let their bad decisions affect you mentally since it has nothing to do with you. Though at some point I do think it's worthwhile to find like-minded people since it's easier to stay on track.
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Yes absolutely. It's important to realize it will never be enough if you don't have the right attitude. Do you think $20 will suddenly become easier to spend when you are finally done accumulating, leave your job and the markets are having a rough patch?
Without going too far down the rabbit whole with the philosophy and psychological aspect of this a simple if somewhat superficial fix is to set yourself a monthly allowance that almost needs to be spent and you should be guilt free about it. Viewing every dollar spent as a blow against your long-term goals is a very unhealthy way to look at it.
I do this. I have fixed size budget categories for "cash" and "hobbies" within my monthly budget. The overall monthly budget is designed to hit my savings target and I spend my cash&hobbies categories on whatever I like and don't analyse them.
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I kind of work against the grain of many on this site. I live some in the moment and spend more than I should right now while I'm in good health and have kids at home. I don't want to look back and think I missed out on the some of the things we've done together as a family. We have a nice house that we can downsize later and we save a ton for college for the kids. But we also take 1-2 vacations each year with the kids. We eat out slightly more than most on here would say is right. But we are saving 40-45% of our take home pay for FI.
I look at my parents and they are in their 60's and don't want to travel much and really just spend a lot of time at home. They have saved a lot of money and will never spend the principal they saved. Why do I want to miss out on some of the great things we do with the kids (while there at home and want to spend time with us) just so I can have a large nest egg when I'm 75 years old.
It will end up costing me 5 years or so on FI but I don't want to look back and regret things we did not do. I would not give up any of the past things we have done, which costs future money so that I can RE 5 years earlier. We still save what I call good money (40-45%). We almost have the kids college paid for. We drive reliable cars but not new and we have a nice house in a very good area with awesome schools. But we live a little right now as well and more than most on here would say is acceptable.
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I never feel poor when I deny myself a wasteful purchase.
Sometimes I feel a little smug that I have opted for efficiency over waste, but that's a minor undertone to the overwhelming theme of my financial life, which is that I am using my vast wealth to purchase the one single luxury that most of humanity can never have: early retirement.
I could buy a million dollar waterfront home, or a fancy sailboat, or a luxury vacation through Europe, but those things are just like the $5 starbucks coffee. They are fleeting luxuries, consumed in an attempt to find happiness, by people who are unhappy because of their jobs. Jobs that own them, by depriving them of their freedom. Real luxury is being able to buy yourself out of your job.
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I kind of work against the grain of many on this site. I live some in the moment and spend more than I should right now while I'm in good health and have kids at home. I don't want to look back and think I missed out on the some of the things we've done together as a family. We have a nice house that we can downsize later and we save a ton for college for the kids. But we also take 1-2 vacations each year with the kids. We eat out slightly more than most on here would say is right. But we are saving 40-45% of our take home pay for FI.
I look at my parents and they are in their 60's and don't want to travel much and really just spend a lot of time at home. They have saved a lot of money and will never spend the principal they saved. Why do I want to miss out on some of the great things we do with the kids (while there at home and want to spend time with us) just so I can have a large nest egg when I'm 75 years old.
It will end up costing me 5 years or so on FI but I don't want to look back and regret things we did not do. I would not give up any of the past things we have done, which costs future money so that I can RE 5 years earlier. We still save what I call good money (40-45%). We almost have the kids college paid for. We drive reliable cars but not new and we have a nice house in a very good area with awesome schools. But we live a little right now as well and more than most on here would say is acceptable.
+1. Saving money is great, but if it means missing out and being miserable then it's not so great. The whole point of the blog here is to live a great life and not to be a 'consumer sucka'. It doesn't mean to hole yourself up, save everything and spend nothing.
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I never feel poor when I deny myself a wasteful purchase.
Sometimes I feel a little smug that I have opted for efficiency over waste, but that's a minor undertone to the overwhelming theme of my financial life, which is that I am using my vast wealth to purchase the one single luxury that most of humanity can never have: early retirement.
I could buy a million dollar waterfront home, or a fancy sailboat, or a luxury vacation through Europe, but those things are just like the $5 starbucks coffee. They are fleeting luxuries, consumed in an attempt to find happiness, by people who are unhappy because of their jobs. Jobs that own them, by depriving them of their freedom. Real luxury is being able to buy yourself out of your job.
+1 for Sol!
I'm trading so many things that people think is necessary or that they'd pay for... but getting the freedom to do whatever the hell I want and not need an employer. That's my trade-off. And if I ever decide to want some more money, it's going to be insanely easy negotiate. But as it goes along, more and more things no longer cost money, so even my low expenses keep getting lower. I can only imagine how low it'll be when I have only free time.
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I went the other way. When I first started out in my career, making more money than I ever dreamed of (low expectations, not huge pay), I still felt poor. Because I thought making $50K, or $80K, or especially $180K after I married, was SO MUCH MONEY that I could have everything I wanted as a kid -- big pot of savings, big house, nice car, makeup from the mall, etc. Basically, financial security + a wealthy lifestyle. But no matter how much I made, I always felt poor, because it still wasn't enough to fund all of that. And worse: at each income level, I was exposed to more and nicer things that I never even realized "normal people" bought when I was a poor kid. I mean, when you're on food stamps, you're not exactly surrounded by people driving BMWs and owning second homes, you know? But plop me down in a law firm, and damn, my lifestyle was much more constrained than everyone else's. I remember shortly after I got married getting Conde Nast Traveler, and reading about all these $400+/night hotels as if that was just nothing, and thinking, man, we make $180K, and I'm not even close to being able to afford that, so who are these people who talk about it like it's just a normal part of life?* I ended up canceling the subscription because it made me feel worse, not better.
OTOH, the MMM philosophy -- and years of experience -- have taught me that chasing stuff willy-nilly will never bring contentment or a feeling of wealth, because there is always something more/better/different. And the more I focus on what I have (which is pretty fucking awesome), the wealthier I feel. Honestly, the day that I realized I never had to work again if I didn't want to was one of the most amazing days of my life. Every day I am conscious of having the privilege of deciding if I want to keep going in to work or not, and there is really no higher privilege than that.
But I am also older than you. So I think it is natural when you are building your assets to focus on what you are giving up; it's hard to constantly turn things down, even when you are doing it for all the right reasons and are overall happy with your lifestyle and choices. But let me tell you, when you're on the other side of the mountain and looking at that nice fat pot o' cash**, that completely goes away. Now, if I want to buy something stupid that I can't afford, I need to give up something -- my freedom -- to get it. And in almost every case, the "thing" just doesn't feel worth the mental weight of knowing I "need" a job again, so I can happily go on my way without feeling deprived at all.
*Also note that my version of normal assumed about a 20%-25% savings rate; at the time, I had not yet realized how unusual that was.
** And by "cash," I mean "VTSAX."
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Honestly, the day that I realized I never had to work again if I didn't want to was one of the most amazing days of my life. Every day I am conscious of having the privilege of deciding if I want to keep going in to work or not, and there is really no higher privilege than that.
That's what I'm saving for. I want to know what that feels like.
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Hi all,
I have been ready MMM for about five-six years now. I was fairly ignorant about investing and spending before that. I mean I had investment properties and saved about 30% of my salary but I was carefree with spending money. In the last six years my net worth has skyrocketed and my (our) saving rate is around 70%.
The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
I feel now that we have a 'target number' to achieve FI we are poor because we need to save XX% in order to get there. The 'target' is now a reminder of the journey ahead and the effort required.
Anyways, this is all part of the process I guess. Anyone else feeling poor while getting rich?
I think I partly deal with the same thing. Mine is more of realizing that I'm behind though, and I'm only hitting 25% to 38% savings rate (depending on whether you're looking at gross or after tax earnings and how you count pension contributions), not 70%. And I have made some choices that have drastically limited my earnings growth, which seemed like a fine trade-off at the time, but maybe I would have looked at those trade-offs differently if I had a better idea of how quickly it would get us to FI.
So whereas before, we would spend money freely and were still doing well by U.S. standards (probably saving 10-15% at the time). Now, we spend a lot less and are saving a lot more, and our net worth is increasing faster (even while picking up ~$25k a year in additional childcare expenses), but it is psychologically painful to make the even scaled back splurges. Before a three day anniversary get away wouldn't have generated another thought. Now I am frustrated that we are about to spend probably $700-800 on a weekend trip. But I'm hopeful that this would go away once we get far enough along (and really hopeful that our savings rate will jump up when the kids get school aged).
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Hi all,
I have been ready MMM for about five-six years now. I was fairly ignorant about investing and spending before that. I mean I had investment properties and saved about 30% of my salary but I was carefree with spending money. In the last six years my net worth has skyrocketed and my (our) saving rate is around 70%.
The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
I feel now that we have a 'target number' to achieve FI we are poor because we need to save XX% in order to get there. The 'target' is now a reminder of the journey ahead and the effort required.
Anyways, this is all part of the process I guess. Anyone else feeling poor while getting rich?
I think I partly deal with the same thing. Mine is more of realizing that I'm behind though, and I'm only hitting 25% to 38% savings rate (depending on whether you're looking at gross or after tax earnings and how you count pension contributions), not 70%. And I have made some choices that have drastically limited my earnings growth, which seemed like a fine trade-off at the time, but maybe I would have looked at those trade-offs differently if I had a better idea of how quickly it would get us to FI.
So whereas before, we would spend money freely and were still doing well by U.S. standards (probably saving 10-15% at the time). Now, we spend a lot less and are saving a lot more, and our net worth is increasing faster (even while picking up ~$25k a year in additional childcare expenses), but it is psychologically painful to make the even scaled back splurges. Before a three day anniversary get away wouldn't have generated another thought. Now I am frustrated that we are about to spend probably $700-800 on a weekend trip. But I'm hopeful that this would go away once we get far enough along (and really hopeful that our savings rate will jump up when the kids get school aged).
You literally just described my life. We used to save 10% and are now up to 23%. We have always been extremely frugal but there just isn't room to save more with daycare expenses for child #1 and child #2 on the way, on top of a car payment for 2 more years. Have a long way to go before our last will hit elementary school, but that will feel like quite the raise!
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I think it's partially due to ignorance is bliss (or lack thereof) and a bit of trees vs forest perspective. When you were more ignorant, it was easier to be happy-go-lucky, especially in the short-term as that was the bulk of focus. Now that you know what is optimal or at least a vast improvement for your own life including extending many years into the future, it can be difficult to react positively to some of what transpires by those around you. The saying "the more you know the less you understand" also works here. It's generally good to be humbled and be aware you do not have all the answers.
I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
If lying would make you feel bad, then don't lie. If you think recognition is better than ignoring, say a generic truism. "Hey, nice-looking car!" or "Wow, this vehicle is so comfortable!" You aren't congratulating them, you are just pointing out the obvious (assuming their 80k vehicle is indeed nice, whether or not you think it's a terrible idea is independent of the fact if the hunk of metal looks nice).
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I never feel poor because there are no real issues in my life (such as housing, medical, or food) that I don't have more than enough money to solve.
But I do think I understand the notion a little bit. Albeit in a different sense. When I was 22 and out of college, I was making 3X what I was making in a year at my previous part time jobs. And it was great. Sure, I invested a bunch, and saved up for a house, but there was some spending in there too. I went out on $30 per person dates with my girlfriend. I bought a new (pre-owned) car. I'd go out drinking, spend $100 buying shots for everyone, and not think anything of it.
Seven years later, I'm making much more money. But I still drive the same car. The $30 meals are gone. No more expensive shots. Pretty much 100% of my raises and promotion bumps since I was 24 or 25 have gone into some kind of investing. Two years ago I got a really big pay bump that I'd been working for pretty much since I started my career. I was so excited the day it happened, but later that evening, I just got really intensely sad. Because I knew there was no material change to my life (right now).
It's hard sometimes. Your brain expects certain reward cycles and that makes riding out the bumps along a long term plan difficult. I just keep reminding myself though, that the things I choose to allocate my money towards are what I really value.
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I kind of work against the grain of many on this site. I live some in the moment and spend more than I should right now while I'm in good health and have kids at home. I don't want to look back and think I missed out on the some of the things we've done together as a family. We have a nice house that we can downsize later and we save a ton for college for the kids. But we also take 1-2 vacations each year with the kids. We eat out slightly more than most on here would say is right. But we are saving 40-45% of our take home pay for FI.
I look at my parents and they are in their 60's and don't want to travel much and really just spend a lot of time at home. They have saved a lot of money and will never spend the principal they saved. Why do I want to miss out on some of the great things we do with the kids (while there at home and want to spend time with us) just so I can have a large nest egg when I'm 75 years old.
It will end up costing me 5 years or so on FI but I don't want to look back and regret things we did not do. I would not give up any of the past things we have done, which costs future money so that I can RE 5 years earlier. We still save what I call good money (40-45%). We almost have the kids college paid for. We drive reliable cars but not new and we have a nice house in a very good area with awesome schools. But we live a little right now as well and more than most on here would say is acceptable.
This is absolutely how we live too. For me it isn't my parents so much, although my dad died at 57 due to COPD complications (long time smoker). The thing that both pushed me to find the FIRE community AND encouraged me to "live a little" (but doing the things I really, truly value) is that my very good friend died at 46 due to brain cancer. She was fit and brilliant and did everything "right". It's been almost a year since she died, but she was first diagnosed around the time I came across MMM. We strive to keep our savings rate above 40%, but we have really upped our travel spending the past few years, while we've also cut back on other spending (cable TV, house cleaning, the usual MMM stuff). We've also maxed out our 401k's and HSA. Worst case for us for FIRE (I mean, short of untimely death or actual apocalypse...) is 12 years, if we stay put as we are now until our youngest is through high school. I will be 51. If we downsize sooner or relocate sooner than planned, it could be as early as 5-7 years. I'm okay with those timeframes if it means we can have some fun now, but I'm not willing to add more years to have a fancy new car, new phone every year, cable TV, etc.
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Its a hard feeling BEING wealthy but FEELING poor - completely irrational. For me its less about comparison and more about work and value. For me its (1) we worked really hard and prudently to get to where we are and while we may be able to FIRE on the 4% rule but its not like where its so much money that it can't slip away from some event such as unusual medical need or (2) on the spending side its like hey its only $500/month but then you realize that's an extra $150k needed, which is a lot of friggin money so I must be poor.
I never knew how poor I was until I started making money (https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ce5cb81c-f9c5-4904-8cfd-fed08cb2c2ae)
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The richer I get the... way I think about spending really hasn't changed at all. I simply don't care to spend $5 for a cup of coffee out when I'm almost always happier with what I have at home. The same with meals. And I simply don't get any utility out of fancy cars or most things that cost a lot of money. The more stuff I own, it feels like the more it would own me.
I imagine being frugal would be much more challenging for one who cares about that stuff.
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It only dawned on me that I was rich when I stopped worrying about what I spent.
Note - I believe this feeling can happen at many different levels of spending.
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It's hard to see the forest for the trees.
For many people, even those pursuing financial freedom, it's easy to get caught up in the day-to-day because each drop in the bucket seems so irrelevant. That $20 is 0.00002% of your $1M saved. If you don't have the right perspective it's easy to get upset with yourself for denying that purchase.
But when you're out of the woods and free to do what you want, your future self will be thanking your present self. Hedonic Adaptation or something like that.
The only advice I can give is to try and shed the FOMO/Frustration and find a place (internally) you can go where you can re-center yourself with your goal.
$20 is 0.002% of 1Million not 0.00002%. You have to multiply the fraction (0.00002) by 100 to get to percent. Sorry couldn't help myself.
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It's hard to see the forest for the trees.
For many people, even those pursuing financial freedom, it's easy to get caught up in the day-to-day because each drop in the bucket seems so irrelevant. That $20 is 0.00002% of your $1M saved. If you don't have the right perspective it's easy to get upset with yourself for denying that purchase.
But when you're out of the woods and free to do what you want, your future self will be thanking your present self. Hedonic Adaptation or something like that.
The only advice I can give is to try and shed the FOMO/Frustration and find a place (internally) you can go where you can re-center yourself with your goal.
$20 is 0.002% of 1Million not 0.00002%. You have to multiply the fraction (0.00002) by 100 to get to percent. Sorry couldn't help myself.
Thanks you! Coffee was still brewing when I wrote that.
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I remember how I felt in my 20s, making what in today's dollars amounts to about 40% of what I'm making now. I remember how confident and adventurous I felt; I remember the energy and sense of independence. I could buy whatever I wanted, but I felt like I had the world in my pocket, so I what did I really need?
As I've gotten older (nearly 56 now) I've felt an increase in desire for more material comforts and conveniences in my life. I don't think it's much about wanting to impress others. Rather, it's a subtle sense of insecurity that seems related to body aging. I notice that at times when I feel like I'm still 26, that desire for more comfort and convenience isn't there. I feel like Geez, I've hit my FI goal, why don't I give notice? I feel rich!
But on days when my body feels more its age, I'm thinking Geez, why don't I get a cushy new SUV, or redo the kitchen cabinets so I don't have to get on my knees to drag things out, or get cable TV so I don't have to run out and tweak the antenna after every wind storm, or take a cushy vacation and stay in hotels instead of our camper van. Then comes the little voice in my ear: "Everyone else does, why not me?" So then I feel poor.
I just have to reason myself out of it. Not only will a comfort quest not stop me from getting older, it'll just make me even more dissatisfied with life.
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I just have to reason myself out of it.
This is good advice for most of life's problems. The judicious application of reason solves most everything. I'm shocked more people don't try it.
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It's hard! You have to contend with confirmation bias, your emotional state, the opinions of others involved, social proof...
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As I've gotten older (nearly 56 now) I've felt an increase in desire for more material comforts and conveniences in my life. I don't think it's much about wanting to impress others. Rather, it's a subtle sense of insecurity that seems related to body aging. I notice that at times when I feel like I'm still 26, that desire for more comfort and convenience isn't there. I feel like Geez, I've hit my FI goal, why don't I give notice? I feel rich!
I'm several years younger, but as I approached and hit 50, I think my desire for more typical consumer crap dropped. My car is 11 1/2 years old, and I don't really feel like getting a new one, even though I could buy it for cash. All the electronic gadgets don't excite me. My primary computer is over 5 years old, my newest laptop is about 5 years old, I'm happy with both. I'm using a 1 1/2 year old cheapie smartphone. I'm happy with my 11 year old bicycle. No desire for cable TV since I cut the cord in favor of an antenna in my attic. Not too crazy about vacations while I still work. I'm having trouble thinking of any expensive material or entertainment items that I would like to spend money on right now, but I have some home improvement/maintenance projects that will suck up some dollars, even doing most of it myself.
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Hmm... for me, it's the opposite - I feel absolutely ridiculously rich. I mean shit, we have a comfortable six figure net worth, see insane increases every year due to our 65-70% savings rate, and spend about 10% of the year traveling all over the world. Like, this year our travel plans involve England, Czech Republic, Germany, and the Netherlands in the summer, Vietnam in the winter, and four additional smaller trips exploring our part of Canada - and we've paid for it all already. How could we not feel just crazy rich? Our lives are just so amazing and filled with all of our favourite things.
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I’ve noticed that I feel much “poorer” about foregoing the $20 here-and-there purchases when I’m in the throes of employment. I wonder if the negative feelings you experience have more to do with the general unhappiness that typically comes with the demands of a job rather than the act of foregoing the $20 purchase. In my experience, the $20 here-and-there purchases are typically impulse buys as an attempt to cope with the stress of a hectic and/or poorly planned day.
I have taken the last year off from my corporate career to decompress and enjoy life and honestly I have been so blissed out by my daily freedom that I have gone days/weeks on end without spending any money (except for weekly groceries) without any effort. This has been the BEST.YEAR.OF.MY.LIFE!!!!!!!!! Just know that it is sooooo worth it, and foregoing those $20 here-and-there purchases will probably be a piece of cake once you are FI.
In the meantime, do the work to create your happiness today, regardless of money. Spend time each day practicing gratitude for what you have and really take a few minutes to reflect on it. Go for a weekly hike out in nature, check out a good book from the library, take a long bath (do guys do that?), spend an evening in listening to your favorite music, volunteer for a worthy cause, invite some buddies over for a poker night, enjoy a leisurely Sunday afternoon meal prepping delicious/healthy/economical food for the week ahead while sipping on some wine and having good conversation with your SO, or whatever floats your boat.
And as others have mentioned, stoicism works wonders. If you normally drive to work, switch things up and walk, bike, or take mass transit for a week. And then when you are out in your community, make it a goal to try and make someone’s day better in some small way (I find that shifting the focus off of me and onto others gives me a nice mental reset).
Good luck!
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In the meantime, do the work to create your happiness today, regardless of money. Spend time each day practicing gratitude for what you have and really take a few minutes to reflect on it. Go for a weekly hike out in nature, check out a good book from the library, take a long bath (do guys do that?), spend an evening in listening to your favorite music, volunteer for a worthy cause, invite some buddies over for a poker night, enjoy a leisurely Sunday afternoon meal prepping delicious/healthy/economical food for the week ahead while sipping on some wine and having good conversation with your SO, or whatever floats your boat.
Well said - Maybe some of the best things in life are still free or nearly free.
I also noted that these good things mentioned are not too involved with material things.
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I just have to reason myself out of it.
This is good advice for most of life's problems. The judicious application of reason solves most everything. I'm shocked more people don't try it.
HAHAHAHA!!! Amen!!
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I will say this re: "feeling poor." I see and know lots of people who I know make far less than our household, and they spend wildly so they look like they're rich. You know the type -- the opposite of the Millionaire Next Door type. Remember that old brokerage house (can't remember which) commercial where everyone was walking around with "their number" under their arm? I kinda wish that were the case in real life, not because I want to flaunt what I have or get into a dick measuring contest, but just because I'm really, really fucking curious to confirm that these people don't have shit put away for a rainy day. You know what I mean? I suppose its just some inner desire (or more likely insecurity) to have my lifestyle choice(s) validated. Which of course is stupid, because I shouldn't need any outside validation for my choices. Being human is hard and weird sometimes, amirite?
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Its not that I feel poorer, its that I feel society's consumer spending message is more difficult to fight. When I didn't have any money, it was easy to not go waste money on the nice convertible that you think would be great fun. Now that I have multiples of my annual expenses in the bank, the idea of dropping $30k seems more reasonable because "I have the money." It still isn't a good expenditure, but I didn't feel I was depriving myself of anything when I had no money, but now I do. I still allow my brain to overcome the "I WANT IT" sense, but I definitely notice it more now.
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I will say this re: "feeling poor." I see and know lots of people who I know make far less than our household, and they spend wildly so they look like they're rich. You know the type -- the opposite of the Millionaire Next Door type. Remember that old brokerage house (can't remember which) commercial where everyone was walking around with "their number" under their arm? I kinda wish that were the case in real life, not because I want to flaunt what I have or get into a dick measuring contest, but just because I'm really, really fucking curious to confirm that these people don't have shit put away for a rainy day. You know what I mean? I suppose its just some inner desire (or more likely insecurity) to have my lifestyle choice(s) validated. Which of course is stupid, because I shouldn't need any outside validation for my choices. Being human is hard and weird sometimes, amirite?
I completely get this sentiment. My wife and I often talk about how we have no clue if we are just stupid and don't know how to make money and/or are way underpaid compared to our peers, or if the people around us are saving nothing, or if they have family help or what. We know that generally people in the U.S. don't save, but with our peer group, that just seems crazy that it would be the case, so it seems likely we are missing something.
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...but with our peer group, that just seems crazy that it would be the case, so it seems likely we are missing something.
I doubt it.
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Its not that I feel poorer, its that I feel society's consumer spending message is more difficult to fight. When I didn't have any money, it was easy to not go waste money on the nice convertible that you think would be great fun.
I get this. Like I have a silly expensive tshirt I've been coveting since December. Maybe November. And the amount it will cost is 5x the price of a reasonable tshirt. But it is also the noise in my invested assets as those fluctuate day by day. Maybe if we end up getting bonuses this year.
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This sounds somewhat like the Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect)), which basically goes that people with low ability overestimate their skill level and people with high ability underestimate their skill level.
So as you've become more skilled and successful at wealth creation, your knowledge of the subject and its perils have also increased.
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I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.
I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.
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I feel this way all the time, I have always wondered where my peers savings rates are.
I do know that a work friend and his girlfriend make about 25% less than my wife and I do (gross). They also eat out for lunch every day and make expensive meals for dinner and refuse to eat the left overs (I eat their left overs 3 days a week for my lunch). They go out to dinner 3 nights a week and spend quite a bit on alcohol while they are out. They have the newest iphones, computers, lots of guns, go on road trips to see concerts, buy expensive gifts for special occasions.
They always tell me how cheap I am and "you only live once". But they also complain about how they don't have enough money to put down on a house and some months they are really tight on paying bills. They are both saving the 6% in their 401K's but no other savings (HSA/529's/IRA,etc.). I know this because I have explained to them what each of these different accounts are and how they work.
I guess more people are like that than we on this forum can imagine and that's what makes the low saving statistics seem so off to us.
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I have taken the last year off from my corporate career to decompress and enjoy life and honestly I have been so blissed out by my daily freedom that I have gone days/weeks on end without spending any money (except for weekly groceries) without any effort. This has been the BEST.YEAR.OF.MY.LIFE!!!!!!!!! Just know that it is sooooo worth it, and foregoing those $20 here-and-there purchases will probably be a piece of cake once you are FI.
Ohh, man that paragraph really spoke to me. I don't have issues with impulse buying, maybe on food, but nothing else. However, I am ready to take a few months off from work to just spend time with my kids and travel. We are close but not FI yet but I also have no intention of not ever working again for money. I have so many things I want to do, I just fear that with I won't come out of the decompression stage and my wife will leave me for being lazy.
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...but with our peer group, that just seems crazy that it would be the case, so it seems likely we are missing something.
I doubt it.
I don't doubt some of them are being idiots, but I find it hard to believe most of them are. And I don't doubt that very few of them are saving more than the 10-15% range. But even at that savings level, we seem to be behind.
I suspect we have made relatively poor choices as to which employers we have taken jobs with, and I am also certain some of them have access to family money, and I'm sure some of them just make smarter choices about how they spend their money, and of course some of them are probably saving nothing or even going into debt (I've certainly heard a couple of people make comments about paying off credit card debt, which floored me). I would just be curious to see how much of each are a factor.
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I don't doubt some of them are being idiots, but I find it hard to believe most of them are. And I don't doubt that very few of them are saving more than the 10-15% range. But even at that savings level, we seem to be behind.
I suspect we have made relatively poor choices as to which employers we have taken jobs with, and I am also certain some of them have access to family money, and I'm sure some of them just make smarter choices about how they spend their money, and of course some of them are probably saving nothing or even going into debt (I've certainly heard a couple of people make comments about paying off credit card debt, which floored me). I would just be curious to see how much of each are a factor.
You'd be surprised at how many of them have access to family money. One of our friend-couples received the entire 20% downpayment for their custom-built McMansion from both sets of parents (gift, not loan) and regularly receive help in the form of food, cash, and childcare. They buy new cars on credit, eat out on a daily basis, pay a housekeeper to clean the McMansion, and rely on parents for emergency funds because they are so far in debt (they've described themselves as "poor", at which point a sibling quickly reminded them that they are not poor, but "broke"). Another friend-couple is currently on a fancy tropical vacation that they "desperately need", even though one of them told me that they couldn't pay their monthly bills recently without help from one set of parents. They eat out several times a week, take trips about once a month, and buy loads of toys.
Husband and I make less money than the first couple and probably about the same as the second couple. Because we strongly value financial security and tend toward minimalism, the difference in stuff doesn't normally bother us. It does sting when they occasionally treat us like we're poor, with little comments about our "situation", worries about our ability to afford things, etc.
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reminded me of this blog post
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/21/embracing-the-nagging-voice-of-success/
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I think there are a lot of people out there that do not think about tomorrow. A very very close relative used to use this phrase when I was a kid:
Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.
This same person had tools for his livelihood. He noted that they were old and wore out. I told him that by putting away just a little money with each job, the tools could be replaced.
I still remember the response. It was this look that told me, "What are you talking about?" It was like the concept was foreign.
The odd thing is that my frugality has netted me a better life than he had, but to this day I am sure he was happier.
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Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.
My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.
That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.
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Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.
My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.
That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.
I do get this. We had to knock out about $55k of student loan debt, which obviously if we had been putting that money into the market instead of paying off debt (about of third of it at 6.8% interest, and about two thirds of it at 4.5%), we'd probably have another $100k in investments right now. Or actually, we'd probably be part owners in a vacation condo that would have doubled in value, which with the benefit of hindsight, would have been a great decision rather than the stupid decision it would normally be, and people would probably be wondering how we have even a part ownership in a vacation home that nice.
Also, some of our friends were able to push their limits in real estate investing because if they had gotten in over their head, their families would have been able to provide enough cash to get them through any temporary crunches, which of course over the last ten years has been a massive benefit that hasn't necessarily required any cash to change hands.
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Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.
My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.
That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.
Huh. My parents did not pay for my college. When I had cancer right after [two years of self-funded junior] college, they did not help pay my medical bills. (I had insurance, but my 20% was still a lot.) No down payment money either. I learned to stand on my own two feet. I know I can take and prevail over any shit life hands me. My parents are dead now, and I am the executor of their estate. There's not a huge amount of money left, but enough to give each of us a little boost. It was very kind of them, but it's not going to change the course of our lives. If anything, for me, it's just more that I can give to charity. Moral of the story: you don't need family help to be successful. Sometimes, parental support just makes you look successful. It doesn't teach you how to DIY it when the shit hits the fan. And it always does.
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Sometimes it helps to be reminded that we are rich. I suspect that applies to most the readers on this forum.
DW had an opportunity to go study abroad last year. She mentioned the trip some of her classmates were planning, saying "I always wished I could have done something like that." She couldn't comprehend the idea that it was a possibility for her... I have to remind her frequently that our debt-free $80k income household is well within any sane definition of "rich."
She got an experience she'll remember for a lifetime, none of the children starved while she was gone, and we still maxed out all the retirement accounts. It is amazing to me that I can drop $5000 on literally anything, and the only downside is that it might delay FIRE for some fraction of a month.
At our income, the only thing we need to avoid is completely worthless expenses. Eat out? Second car? Big house? Not a chance. Charitable giving? Lasik? Physical therapy? Absolutely.
Buying a house that cost well under my net worth was a pretty liberating feeling. I have a mortgage by choice, not because I have to.
Now that I'm well on my way to FIRE, I just need to max out our retirement accounts each year to be happy. As long as we manage that, I don't even notice trivial expenses. I've probably got ten more years in the rat race, but I'll still be done in my early 40s. I might be able to get there a few months faster by counting the pennies, but it wouldn't be worth it.
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I've probably got ten more years in the rat race, but I'll still be done in my early 40s. I might be able to get there a few months faster by counting the pennies, but it wouldn't be worth it.
We have noticed this same effect when discussing promotions at work. When you're within about two years of your retirement date, promotions become less and less meaningful. Why would I work my ass off for a 2% pay raise for the next two years, when I can make just as much money by retiring 12 days later at my current pay rate?
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I have a mortgage by choice, not because I have to.
Brilliant!
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I have taken the last year off from my corporate career to decompress and enjoy life and honestly I have been so blissed out by my daily freedom that I have gone days/weeks on end without spending any money (except for weekly groceries) without any effort. This has been the BEST.YEAR.OF.MY.LIFE!!!!!!!!! Just know that it is sooooo worth it, and foregoing those $20 here-and-there purchases will probably be a piece of cake once you are FI.
Ohh, man that paragraph really spoke to me. I don't have issues with impulse buying, maybe on food, but nothing else. However, I am ready to take a few months off from work to just spend time with my kids and travel. We are close but not FI yet but I also have no intention of not ever working again for money. I have so many things I want to do, I just fear that with I won't come out of the decompression stage and my wife will leave me for being lazy.
It was certainly a difficult decision to make but it ended up being a win for the entire family. I was able to get physically and emotionally healthy and spend some super fun quality time with DD. DH actually started enjoying work much more because I happily took on his portion of the family responsibilities and he was free to just get up and go. Happy hour after work/gonna miss dinner - no problem. Going in early to play some basket ball - have fun! Need to work late to hit a deadline - can DD and I bring you some dinner? We discovered that all of our happiness increases when only one parent is working (and yes, I know that doesn't apply to everyone).
I will say, I did become surprisingly "lazy". DD is 10 and in school most of the day so I had a ton of "me time". I prioritized getting healthy (exercise/physical activity, reading and self-reflection) and DD's academic/emotional development over cleaning and cooking, which DH didn't always fully appreciate (until I'd distract him with sex;-). The more I was home, the more I wanted to stay home FOREVER, which is why I've decided to go back to work. We are not yet FI either (but have serious FU money), but we're so close I think it's worth going for it. If either of us starts to burn out again we will take another break. If we both start to burn out we will probably both quit our jobs and travel as a family for a year before DD goes to high school.
The decision is a super personal one, so I won't necessarily encourage you to do it, but I will say for me it has been the best decision and brought our family much closer together. I honestly cannot imagine a better life than what I've had this past year, but I'm also a simple lady.
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Agreed about the family money, and sometimes it helps in ways that aren't immediately obvious.
My parents don't help with any of my bills now, and I haven't needed to ask for their help with an emergency in a long time. But their support in my earlier years was crucial to putting me in that position. While most of my peers are slogging through 5-6 figure student loan debts, my parents allowed me to graduate debt free. When I was in graduate school making a very low stipend, they helped out when I needed money for a medical expense so I didn't have to go into credit card debt.
That early cushion gave me a huge amount of freedom. I was able to rapidly build up an emergency fund when I started making more money AND start saving for retirement at the same time. While I still have room to improve, I am in a much better position than a lot of people I know, and that would not be possible (or at least as easy) without the early support from my parents. I'm very grateful for it.
Huh. My parents did not pay for my college. When I had cancer right after [two years of self-funded junior] college, they did not help pay my medical bills. (I had insurance, but my 20% was still a lot.) No down payment money either. I learned to stand on my own two feet. I know I can take and prevail over any shit life hands me. My parents are dead now, and I am the executor of their estate. There's not a huge amount of money left, but enough to give each of us a little boost. It was very kind of them, but it's not going to change the course of our lives. If anything, for me, it's just more that I can give to charity. Moral of the story: you don't need family help to be successful. Sometimes, parental support just makes you look successful. It doesn't teach you how to DIY it when the shit hits the fan. And it always does.
I didn't mean that you can only be successful with family help. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. I just meant that it's a boost a lot of people take for granted - the people who had their parents' help, and also people looking at their lives from the outside who don't know the extent of the support. I agree that in some cases, it can make people appear successful when they haven't really learned how to manage their own shit yet.
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Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich." I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts. I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so.
Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/)
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A few years ago I get a decent raise by changing jobs. About the same time we got out of the crisis fog of having a new kid in the house. I hit that point where I was getting money in the door faster than I was spending it, and was maxin out the 401k and was not sure what to do next. Better vacations? House projects? More toys?
I finally felt kind of rich finally, and also nervous as hell. Usually money sitting in my bank account attracts a crisis. In the past it has been dogs needing surgery, cars needing major work, the roof starting to leak, etc. It was about that time I discovered MMM and had my eyes opened a bit wider.
Looking at others' savings rates and staches made me feel poor again. Instead of finally breaking through the stress of money/family, I realized I was miles behind others. I also realized that my goal was no longer one of getting a good job and working till 70, but of working as few years as possible to be able to spend more time with kid/wife/nature. With only half my number saved at 40, I now feel poor again in certain ways. So much more is needed to be saved, yet it feels like I am not able to pour as much into my stache as fast as I want.
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A few years ago I get a decent raise by changing jobs. About the same time we got out of the crisis fog of having a new kid in the house. I hit that point where I was getting money in the door faster than I was spending it, and was maxin out the 401k and was not sure what to do next. Better vacations? House projects? More toys?
I finally felt kind of rich finally, and also nervous as hell. Usually money sitting in my bank account attracts a crisis. In the past it has been dogs needing surgery, cars needing major work, the roof starting to leak, etc. It was about that time I discovered MMM and had my eyes opened a bit wider.
Looking at others' savings rates and staches made me feel poor again. Instead of finally breaking through the stress of money/family, I realized I was miles behind others. I also realized that my goal was no longer one of getting a good job and working till 70, but of working as few years as possible to be able to spend more time with kid/wife/nature. With only half my number saved at 40, I now feel poor again in certain ways. So much more is needed to be saved, yet it feels like I am not able to pour as much into my stache as fast as I want.
The folks here are completely not a representative sample of the population. Take a look at the wider world, and you'll see that you are probably way ahead. That's not a dig on other people as much as a way to highlight how rich you actually are. At this point your challenge is more to clean up the space between your ears than clean up your finances.
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Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich." I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts. I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so.
Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/)
The families at our end of the spectrum wouldn’t know what to do with a pitchfork.
Along with a number of other statements in this article....this one was the manure spreading pinnacle.
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Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich." I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts. I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so.
Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/)
The families at our end of the spectrum wouldn’t know what to do with a pitchfork.
Along with a number of other statements in this article....this one was the manure spreading pinnacle.
You are so punny!
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Suffering = Expectations - Reality
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Add me to the people who even when I call something "too expensive," most of the time it's really not because I am "rich." I realized I was rich (or on my way to being with my salary and spending habits over time) while living in early New York City and spending a ton but also maxing out my retirement accounts. I also realized back then what Paula Pant has made a living blogging about that I could afford just about anything but not everything and it was my decision to say no to some wants was what kept me able to do so.
Strangely enough this article was posted by a friend the other day on facebook that kind of makes me think of this thread.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/)
The families at our end of the spectrum wouldn’t know what to do with a pitchfork.
Along with a number of other statements in this article....this one was the manure spreading pinnacle.
You are so punny!
That was a very strange article. The author - a self-proclaimed member of the 10% - says that the 10% are evil and they should all stop being successful. Furthermore, they should stop helping their children be successful. Meritocracies are unfair to people who don't have ability?
I have to wonder what would happen to the economy if the 10% just stopped working and everyone went to the beach for 6 months.
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I have to wonder what would happen to the economy if the 10% just stopped working and everyone went to the beach for 6 months.
There is a movie about this and books called Atlas Shrugged.
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OMG, am I channeling Ayn Rand?
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I think there are a lot of people out there that do not think about tomorrow. A very very close relative used to use this phrase when I was a kid:
Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.
I love the Dorothy Parker version of this, entitled 'The flaw in paganism':
Drink and dance and laugh and lie,
Love, the reeling midnight through,
For tomorrow we shall die!
(But, alas, we never do.)
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I think there are a lot of people out there that do not think about tomorrow. A very very close relative used to use this phrase when I was a kid:
Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.
I love the Dorothy Parker version of this, entitled 'The flaw in paganism':
Drink and dance and laugh and lie,
Love, the reeling midnight through,
For tomorrow we shall die!
(But, alas, we never do.)
I'll take "Tripping Billies" by Dave Matthews Band, please.
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What I've done is allow myself little luxuries along the way. It's sort of a dance between buying my freedom, while also allowing myself to enjoy the present a bit. For instance, once I went out and bought some really nice pillows--I think they were like $150. And in the moment I considered how the opportunity cost was "robbing me of my freedom" and putting me on the hedonic treadmill etc, but every night for a year when I went to bed I felt "rich." To me, the trade off was absolutely worth it and it helped a great deal in countering that feeling of "being poor." Now every year or so I allow myself some kind of indulgence and I've managed to collect a lot of really nice things along the way which help create the feeling of a life of luxury and "remind" me I've actually got a lot of money in the bank. Not very mustacian, maybe, but it works for me :)
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After reading this thread and giving it some thought, I've come to a bit of a realization, because I often feel the same way as OP. Even though our needs are more than comfortably met, and we are saving for early retirement, I often feel like we're barely making ends meet. For me, I've noticed that such feelings most frequently come when one of the following is true:
- Those around us do not appear to worry about money, because they spend a lot, whether they can afford it or not. This is especially true when I see other people who have lower income but nicer things.
- Those around us do not appear to worry about money, because they earn more than us and live a similar lifestyle
- We go over budget during a month (even if on average we're under budget)
- When I feel like I scrimp on little things, and then a bigger, avoidable expense occurs, e.g. I bike to work to save $2, but then DW is out of energy and we spend $20 on dinner.
For me, I have to remind myself that, respectively:
- Appearances are deceiving. They probably are far more stressed about "will we have enough to pay our bills," while my stress is "how early will I be able to retire."
- Others' success should in no way diminish mine
- The reason our budget is tight is because we're pretty good at budgeting, AND our retirement accounts are growing
- If I saved $2, I saved $2. Sure, the $2 and the $20 come out of the same account (or don't), but they're really separate things
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I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.
I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.
Wardrobe on a budget and home decor on a budget are 2 things I still struggle with - any tips?
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I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.
I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.
Wardrobe on a budget and home decor on a budget are 2 things I still struggle with - any tips?
Thrift stores for the former, yard sales for the latter. Seriously--I'm in the process of selling the stuff my brother used to stage his house, everything from furniture and bedding down to vases, art, mirrors, and fake plants. The stuff that won't sell, even at low prices, is the stuff you hang on walls and put on flat surfaces for staging. Vases, candle pedestals, wall mirrors, artwork. You have to practically give it away before anyone will take it.
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Has it occurred to you that the whole culture of LBYM and efficiency and careful spending is a means to an end...but really it is meant to create a happy lifestyle as it's result. Now....right now. Not just as pent up, holding your breath, waiting to have yet more money yet more frugality yet more abstinence.....
this is brilliantly said, and something I need to remind myself of. Thanks for the insight!
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We all need to work on "mindful spending", some more than others. Also there is a difference between having fun and being happy; 20k on hookers and blow in Vegas might be fun but you wont be happy even after you save Doug from the roof.
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Hi all,
I have been ready MMM for about five-six years now. I was fairly ignorant about investing and spending before that. I mean I had investment properties and saved about 30% of my salary but I was carefree with spending money. In the last six years my net worth has skyrocketed and my (our) saving rate is around 70%.
The key difference I feel is that 'before' I used to spend $20 here or $50 there without much thought. Now with more money (net worth increasing $1M in last 6 years alone) I feel poor. I mean, I know I am doing well but still the pain of 'wasting' money on $5 coffee (which is rare now days) or similar spending hurts. I have gone from mindless spending to 'intentional' spending. We spend on what is important to us (e.g. travelling) and eliminate all other waste (eating out every day, latest iPhone etc.)
I have family / relatives who are much much worse off than we are but they spend like crazy. A close relative just bought a $80k SUV when they clearly can't afford it and everyone (within our extended family) is congratulating them. I feel bad for not congratulating them but I just can't bring myself to thinking that it is a good decision.
I feel now that we have a 'target number' to achieve FI we are poor because we need to save XX% in order to get there. The 'target' is now a reminder of the journey ahead and the effort required.
Anyways, this is all part of the process I guess. Anyone else feeling poor while getting rich?
Hey friend, I too feel in the same way. Even we don't spend much except on the daily household needs. But still, sometimes I fell saving is a good habit.
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I never felt poor until I bought real estate. I've always lived in HCOLAs, and home ownership was a doggedly pursued goal after a cancer experience in my early twenties. I did it, but I was house poor for years. My timing was good and it was well worth it in the end.
I've always enjoyed the challenge of stretching a buck and of looking like I was living on more than I actually was. Wardrobe on a dime? Check. Home decor on a dime? Check. Travel on a dime? Check. All those checkmarks eventually added up and every dime saved was worth it, in spades.
Wardrobe on a budget and home decor on a budget are 2 things I still struggle with - any tips?
Thrift stores for the former, yard sales for the latter. Seriously--I'm in the process of selling the stuff my brother used to stage his house, everything from furniture and bedding down to vases, art, mirrors, and fake plants. The stuff that won't sell, even at low prices, is the stuff you hang on walls and put on flat surfaces for staging. Vases, candle pedestals, wall mirrors, artwork. You have to practically give it away before anyone will take it.
Yup, pretty much ^this^. I also like Craigslist and NextDoor. I had a great Home Consignment Store in my area. It's closed now (boo!), but when I was furnishing our current house, it was amazing. My eleven foot long custom-made-from-recycled-wood-at-a-very-high-end-shop dining table with ten chairs and a bench came from there. So did my fancy bedcovers and eleventy-zillion matching pillows. Best advice: be flexible and be patient. Use placeholders until you find what you really, really want. I kept my undies in a filing cabinet for years, until I finally found the perfect dresser.
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Suffering = Expectations - Reality
Brilliant. I am going to remember this one
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I have been feeling like we are living paycheck to paycheck in a way. I can't wait for Thursday as this is when the investment accounts are funded. Every other day seems like a grind. Just always looking forward to that one day, and for what? I know my life is out of balance, no time for recreation, just work, study, cook, clean, sleep, repeat. Maybe that expensive rock climbing gym membership would make me more fulfilled? I can't bring myself to spend the money, I can't stop thinking about FIRE.
I used to be poor. Sleeping in my car eating at a food bank and soup kitchen poor. I knew I was poor, but I didn't feel like this. I had a large group of friends and spent most of my waking hours in the pursuit of outdoor recreation, live music, and partying the night away. I always worked, but it wasn't my focus. I enjoyed every day of my life then, and often felt incredibly privileged to have such a wonderful life.
These days I feel like a sellout. I traded my soul for money in the bank. I traded my strength for a seat at a desk. I traded my friends for a career. All this and I don't even mind my job, it's better than many I have had in the past.
I look forward to FIRE everyday. I keep telling myself that this sacrifice is payment for not being more disciplined and balanced in my youth. I keep telling myself that I can keep this up for another 10-12 years. Keep grinding away and one day I will be free.
Trying to find a balance. I cut my hours at work from 65 to 45, and I am using that to study for my PE exam in the fall and help more around the house during the week. Already starting to feel better. Once the exam is over I will have that time to start going back to the gym and do chores so I can play outside at least 1 day on the weekends. Getting closer but not there yet.
All tough mind games - I will get better at it in time.
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Read the stoics, or alternatively read some modern, secular Buddhism. You can live a good life right here in the present moment.
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I've probably got ten more years in the rat race, but I'll still be done in my early 40s. I might be able to get there a few months faster by counting the pennies, but it wouldn't be worth it.
We have noticed this same effect when discussing promotions at work. When you're within about two years of your retirement date, promotions become less and less meaningful. Why would I work my ass off for a 2% pay raise for the next two years, when I can make just as much money by retiring 12 days later at my current pay rate?
Amen! A few years back when I was topped out at my pay grade, I had the option of a $1500 cash award (before taxes) or a 40-hour time off award, i.e., a free week of vacation! Man, that's a no-brainer -- give me the vacation!
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There is a crossover point where, one year you feel like you are working for money and working to add as much of it to the 'stache as possible, then the next year you take your foot off the gas and the 'stache grows as fast if not faster than it did when you were working so hard. The year after that, the process accelerates further and you realize that working is optional.
That's when I first felt really 'rich'. Before that, I pretty much felt (and looked) poor. Now I just look and feel neither rich nor poor, while all that financial stuff takes care of itself and I pay attention to the more important non-monetary things in life.
Good luck, it IS hard work at first, but well worth it. Nothing can be more fulfilling than achieving freedom on your own terms (personally I think people that inherit FI or get there too easily miss out on feeling fulfilled, but now I'm rambling)...
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Read the stoics, or alternatively read some modern, secular Buddhism. You can live a good life right here in the present moment.
+1 I find audiobooks by Alan Watts on Zen, very enlightening
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Now I just look and feel neither rich nor poor, while all that financial stuff takes care of itself and I pay attention to the more important non-monetary things in life.
I really like that.
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There is a crossover point where, one year you feel like you are working for money and working to add as much of it to the 'stache as possible, then the next year you take your foot off the gas and the 'stache grows as fast if not faster than it did when you were working so hard. The year after that, the process accelerates further and you realize that working is optional.
That's when I first felt really 'rich'. Before that, I pretty much felt (and looked) poor.
I think there is a binary way of thinking that many of us engage in - we're either financially independent or we're not. And if we're not, then we feel either poor or insecure or some combination of the two. Even if we're $100k richer this year than we were last year, if we haven't reached our FI number yet we worry about all sorts of things. Am I saving enough? Am I earning enough? What would happen if I lost my job or suffered a huge pay cut? But I don't know if reaching FI gets rid of the uncertainty or if we just trade one set of worries for another. Instead of worrying about a job loss, will I then worry about a medical emergency wiping out a huge chunk of my savings? Or about the stock market collapsing?
So much of life is a crap shoot. I feel like I just need to get better at living with uncertainty. Maybe I should take more risks now instead of always playing it safe (i.e. continuing to work a well-paying job that doesn't suit me) even if it screws up my target FI date. I've always said I wanted to move near the water and live in a place where it's warm enough to play golf year round. Yet I'm nearly 40 years old and I haven't gotten any closer to my warm-weather destination because I'm afraid of taking any risks that would jeopardize my early retirement dreams.
Once I did the math and realized when I could retire, it was almost as if I told myself that it would be the end of the world if I didn't become financially independent by that date. Every decision I make is done with my FI goal in mind. As a result, I feel like I'm just settling for a life that doesn't really make me happy in the hopes that eliminating the need to earn an income will make me happy. And yet I could lose my job tomorrow as part of a corporate restructuring and that could seriously interfere with my plans. But maybe that would be the kick in the ass I need to start really living. It might be a freeing experience for me. On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job. Sounds crazy, right?
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It seems to me that what I really mean when I ask if someone is rich or poor is "With that much income, could I accomplish all of my current goals without having to count out the money?". A rich person has enough money to accomplish all of their ambitions, and a poor person has to worry over every dollar to meet their goals, and prioritize among those goals aggressively.
ER is, to begin with, a pretty grand ambition. It requires a lot more money that most of the other ambitions that you've actually acted to achieve (more than most of mine, at any rate). But the strategy we use here actually doubles down on that discrepancy between ambition and resources: we get to the FI number by worrying over every dollar of the money.
So basically: You got a lot of cash, to accomplish a goal that is even beyond that lot of cash, by thinking about money like you were a poor person in your day to day life. Because you are walking the walk, your emotions are talking the talk.
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On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job. Sounds crazy, right?
This doesn't sound crazy at all. Because otherwise it is our fault if we pull the trigger on RE too quickly, or if the big risk (new job, new place, new person/no partner) doesn't pan out. Or maybe that is just me.
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On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job. Sounds crazy, right?
This doesn't sound crazy at all. Because otherwise it is our fault if we pull the trigger on RE too quickly, or if the big risk (new job, new place, new person/no partner) doesn't pan out. Or maybe that is just me.
I think that's a big part of it. If I quit and it doesn't pan out, then I'll feel like an idiot. But if I get laid off and fall on hard times, then I'm likely to judge myself less harshly. With just 5-7 years until I reach my FI number, I don't know if it's worth the risk to make a move. But maybe it's an even bigger risk to stay in a boring job for that long. After all, I could die between now and then.
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My future is completely uncertain, and I now consider that a great thing. I used to crave stability and predictability and now nothing would depress me more than knowing exactly what my life will look like in 5 years because that means that no amazing and new opportunities will have popped up.
I'm trying to get to a place where I consider the uncertainty to be a good thing, too.
Aiming for FIRE is all nice and good, but it’s incredibly unhealthy to let it hold you back from living your full life just because you have some imaginary timeline for some arbitrary savings goal. Nothing in life is guaranteed, except that it *will* pass you by if you let it.
I totally agree. My biggest fear is that it will pass me by and I'll regret the way I've lived.
I like this quote from Alan Watts' book The Wisdom of Insecurity.
"If happiness always depends on something expected in the future, we are chasing a will-o’-the-wisp that ever eludes our grasp, until the future, and ourselves, vanish into the abyss of death."
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There is a crossover point where, one year you feel like you are working for money and working to add as much of it to the 'stache as possible, then the next year you take your foot off the gas and the 'stache grows as fast if not faster than it did when you were working so hard. The year after that, the process accelerates further and you realize that working is optional.
That's when I first felt really 'rich'. Before that, I pretty much felt (and looked) poor.
I think there is a binary way of thinking that many of us engage in - we're either financially independent or we're not. And if we're not, then we feel either poor or insecure or some combination of the two. Even if we're $100k richer this year than we were last year, if we haven't reached our FI number yet we worry about all sorts of things. Am I saving enough? Am I earning enough? What would happen if I lost my job or suffered a huge pay cut? But I don't know if reaching FI gets rid of the uncertainty or if we just trade one set of worries for another. Instead of worrying about a job loss, will I then worry about a medical emergency wiping out a huge chunk of my savings? Or about the stock market collapsing?
So much of life is a crap shoot. I feel like I just need to get better at living with uncertainty. Maybe I should take more risks now instead of always playing it safe (i.e. continuing to work a well-paying job that doesn't suit me) even if it screws up my target FI date. I've always said I wanted to move near the water and live in a place where it's warm enough to play golf year round. Yet I'm nearly 40 years old and I haven't gotten any closer to my warm-weather destination because I'm afraid of taking any risks that would jeopardize my early retirement dreams.
Once I did the math and realized when I could retire, it was almost as if I told myself that it would be the end of the world if I didn't become financially independent by that date. Every decision I make is done with my FI goal in mind. As a result, I feel like I'm just settling for a life that doesn't really make me happy in the hopes that eliminating the need to earn an income will make me happy. And yet I could lose my job tomorrow as part of a corporate restructuring and that could seriously interfere with my plans. But maybe that would be the kick in the ass I need to start really living. It might be a freeing experience for me. On some level, I think I almost want to get laid off just so I could experience the excitement and adventure of starting over in a new town with a new job. Sounds crazy, right?
And as I sat there brooding on the old, unknown world, I thought of Gatsby's wonder when he first picked out
the green light at the end of Daisy's dock. He had come a long way to this blue lawn, and his dream must have seemed so close that he could hardly fail to grasp it. He did not know that it was already behind him, somewhere back in that vast obscurity beyond the city, where the dark fields of the republic rolled on under the night.
Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then,
but that's no matter -- to-morrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . and one fine morning ----
So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.