Rich people get money advice & poor don't? Struggling friend "manages fine."

[NoWorries]

This is just a vent! I realize that putting any more emotional energy into helping someone who doesn't want help is a waste. But I need to vent and I also have questions:

My friend is always complaining about debt and how they never get ahead financially. I asked her a few questions and find that they have 3 vehicles (2 adults in the house) and 10k in credit card debt. Some of the cards have 18% interest rate and so I suggest consolidating debt for a lower rate. She contacts the credit union and they won't give them a loan. I don't know if their credit is too bad or what. So I suggest selling 1 vehicle. She replies that 2 vehicles are underwater, and the other she needs during the winter for her job (delivering newspapers) because it's a 4x4. I mention that I would take time and look over their finances and see if I could offer any other suggestions. "I handle our finances and we manage just fine."

HUH!?!? You can't get a loan and you are underwater on 3 vehicles. You have consumer debt. At 18%!!! UGH!!!! I know that putting any more energy into helping someone who doesn't want help is futile, but I could probably offer some suggestions.

It really made me think. When I wanted financial help, I asked people who I trusted and who were financially much better off than I was. It's helped me IMMENSELY and I've made thousands from their advice. It seems that people with no money, or lots of debt, don't want help, but people who are better off financially are more open to advice.

Is it being open to advice that gets people financially successful, and do "poor" people stay that way because they aren't open? Or is control over their money the only control that poor people have and they don't want to give that up? Or do some people not want to admit that they don't know it all when it comes to money?

[Kris]

You can't help someone who dies not want to help him/herself.

It is tough. But this person is telling you that your advice will not be well taken.

I suggest backing off.

[Riff]

My friend is always complaining about debt and how they never get ahead financially....
"I handle our finances and we manage just fine."

Which is it?

[cbr shadow]

It seems that people with no money, or lots of debt, don't want help, but people who are better off financially are more open to advice.

Is it being open to advice that gets people financially successful, and do "poor" people stay that way because they aren't open?

It's probably a mix of both.  People who are open to getting advice from others end up doing better.  People who aren't doing well are a bit embarrassed to share their finances and so aren't able to get advice.  Before I found MMM my wife and I were big spenders and didn't save anything for a few years.. if someone had offered us advice I'm not sure I would have been receptive at first.  I would have thought "We don't have much debt, and pretty good income.. what's the issue?"

It sounds like your friend isn't ready for advice, or maybe she's just defensive and isn't comfortable sharing so much with a friend.  With my own friends I'll bring up the topic of finances and if they share information about their own debt I'll tell them about MMM.  It's much easier to make an argument for FIRE if it doesn't involve your own (or their) financial situation.  I'll say "This guy has a blog where he discusses how he saved a huge portion of his check and retired in his early 30's".  They'll make a typical counter argument and I'll defend MMM's side.  That way it doesn't involve me directly and it removes all ego from the conversation.

[The Guru]

It seems that people who don't want help have no money, or lots of debt, , but people who are more open to advice are better off financially.

ftfy

[Adventine]

Some people don't actually want help. They just want someone to listen to them complain.

[Bertram]

I mention that I would take time and look over their finances and see if I could offer any other suggestions. "I handle our finances and we manage just fine."

No offense, but maybe you come across as patronizing? People don't like to feel judged or treated like they can't take care of their own shit. That was probably the most friendly way of saying that she does not want to continue interacting on this topic with you. If you want to offer help, you need to let the person you're helping be in the driver's seat and make the calls. Your suggestions should be be offerings and never let them feel like you're taking things out of their hands. You can do that with kids (sometimes), but you can't do it with adults.

Especially if the she/he indeed does need help it means they maybe cannot differentiate between good and bad advice, and than the strategy of pushing somebody out who is trying to control her finances is right on target and correct. Is she suffering? Maybe, but at least it's her decisions and not somebody else's who tried to screw her over. (I am not suggesting you are, of course, I am just saying from where she stands she probably can't tell the difference).

To summarize: Maybe you are just bad at giving advice? Just a thought/possibility...

[richyf]

I think the issue was that your offer of help/advice was unsolicited.

If/when your friend is in a place where they need advice, they will, like you did, seek it out.


You could build a few bridges and be a little more subtle by saying..

'Hey, sorry if I stepped over the mark, I was just really fired up about MMM and got carried away with myself'.
They might then be curious enough about this web site to take a look themselves.

[golden1]

Many people have a  lot of trouble asking for help.  It is a bit of blow to your pride to recognize that you aren't doing well in some aspect of your life and you will either cover it up or rationalize it away.  This is why so many people need to "hit bottom" in order to begin to make necessary changes and don't really want to hear advice from other people.

[Playing with Fire UK]

I've seen a similar thing to the OP. I think that people who grow up with a stressful money situation (not necessarily lack of money but lack of control), don't see healthy money attitudes being modelled growing up and seem to feel shame about a money situation much quicker than someone with more positive money role models.

My in laws are similar to the OP's friend; they have two modes - crisis -nothing can be done, floods of tears and 'look at what we just bought (on credit)!!"

They have a hard time seeing or believing that they have options, because they have learnt that they are hopeless at money and don't think they can change.

[MayDay]

My SIL is like this. 

In her case, she know perfectly well that if she gave up some things (expensive car, alcohol) she could afford her goals (saving for house, not living with her mom).

In reality, she isn't willing to make the sacrifice.  She doesn't need advice, she needs to choose financial security over short term desires. 

[PARedbeard]

Part of my job is working with families to help them be more solid (in all ways, including financially), so that they can support their children. Unsolicited help certainly does turn people off, but two of the things that I run into most frequently are the inability to read or do basic math as well as a "settledness" in their current situation.

The math and reading are obvious issues; ones, especially, which can cause you to overpay like crazy (like renting your electronics every month or using pay-day loans). Feeling settled, though is a bit different. I am always impacted by how much environment can influence daily decisions. Many of the families I work with are impoverished, live in impoverished neighborhoods, and come from families who have been impoverished for generations. While they know that they could potentially change their situation, it is difficult to do so, and many of their friends/relatives live in poverty and "do just fine." The definition of "fine" and "normal" is different for everyone and each situation.

I do think there is something about not being open, though. My father is like that: he wants to learn more about finances, but he is very reticent to discuss actual numbers, thinking that it is "improper" and "impolite." That could just be a generational difference as well as a cultural one.

[sleepyguy]

100% agreed.

That being said if they are sincere in their request and her statement was just a defence mechanism.  I'd tread lightly to be honest... baby steps.  You're asking them to get rid of a car... most people can't stop getting their morning Starbucks coffee.  Their routine is ingrained in the head as "normal".

As others have mentioned also... you tried and that's enough.

Some people don't actually want help. They just want someone to listen to them complain.

[HAPPYINAZ]

It seems that people with no money, or lots of debt, don't want help, but people who are better off financially are more open to advice.

Is it being open to advice that gets people financially successful, and do "poor" people stay that way because they aren't open?

It's probably a mix of both.  People who are open to getting advice from others end up doing better.  People who aren't doing well are a bit embarrassed to share their finances and so aren't able to get advice.  Before I found MMM my wife and I were big spenders and didn't save anything for a few years.. if someone had offered us advice I'm not sure I would have been receptive at first.  I would have thought "We don't have much debt, and pretty good income.. what's the issue?"

It sounds like your friend isn't ready for advice, or maybe she's just defensive and isn't comfortable sharing so much with a friend.  With my own friends I'll bring up the topic of finances and if they share information about their own debt I'll tell them about MMM.  It's much easier to make an argument for FIRE if it doesn't involve your own (or their) financial situation.  I'll say "This guy has a blog where he discusses how he saved a huge portion of his check and retired in his early 30's".  They'll make a typical counter argument and I'll defend MMM's side.  That way it doesn't involve me directly and it removes all ego from the conversation.

I think this advice is a good way to try.  That way the example of what works is neutral and might be listened to less defensively.  It also removes you in case the issue of them not listening relates to how you are giving the message or just their relationship with you.  If you can actually get them to read MMM perhaps they will feel they have discovered this information on their own and might be more willing to apply it in their lives.

   

[Digital Dogma]

If you can manage to reach out to them and get them to read one thing, this may be the blog post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/18/news-flash-your-debt-is-an-emergency/

I'd suggest you approach the topic from a larger perspective outside of your friends specific situation (because it sounds like they'll be forced to downsize their fleet). Use your genuine concern to introduce them to a new perspective on debt, let them decide for themselves what they have to do to fix their financial situation.

[NoWorries]

This is just a vent! I realize that putting any more emotional energy into helping someone who doesn't want help is a waste. But I need to vent and I also have questions:

Funny how I even put this in the beginning of my post, but some people still told me that I need to let go giving my friend advice. I obviously get that. I am venting and also putting a context behind my questions.

I had another friend years ago who I was talking on the phone to and she hushed up her kids. I asked what was going on and she said that the bill collector was knocking. I was shocked and she said that he parks up the street and that they just hide. I expressed concern and she replied "Everyone does that!" Uh, no. I shut up.

I have helped 2 other friends get out of debt and they feel really good about it. One was paying 12% interest on her credit card, making a payment of $100 monthly while her interest each month was more than that! It's kind of awesome to help a friend get out of debt and make such a positive impact on a person's life.

Interesting how some people are more open to advice and change.

[Tetsuya Hondo]

Armchair Psychology Theory 1: We monkeys have lots of psychological baggage when it comes to our status and place in the pecking order. Conversations about money trigger insecurities about where we stand in relation to our fellow monkeys. These fears override rational thought.

Armchair Psychology Theory 2: We just want others to justify our actions and make us feel better about the stupid shit we do. So when your friend complains about their financial troubles, they just want you to say something like: "yeah, tell me about it. it's hard to get ahead with [these evil banks squeezing you/that somebitch Obama in the White House/illuminati/bogeyman of your choice]." Then they feel like they're ok and can buy that 1035 inch 3D mind-ray IMAX TV.

[Fishindude]

We've offered lots of employee assistance type financial training at work; Dave Ramsey loaner DVD's, seminars on budgeting, talks from our local bankers, free fincncial consulting by the manager of our 401K program, etc., etc.   

Guess who takes advantage of these?
The folks that are already pretty well heeled financially, or folks getting ready to retire.

Those that really need the help, wont take it.  They continue to dig their holes deeper every day, know they are on an unsustainable course, are likely a bit ashamed or embarrassed about it, but won't make any change to turn things around.

[fattest_foot]

This is kind of an aside from your question, but your scenario was interesting to me.

They keep a 3rd car that only gets used in the winter, to deliver newspapers? They have an entire car loan, plus insurance, for newspapers? I'd imagine they could get rid of the car AND the delivery job, and be better off. They're probably wasting time and money on a job that is completely unnecessary.

Ignoring financial illiteracy entirely, that just seems crazy to me.

[TVRodriguez]

This is just a vent! I realize that putting any more emotional energy into helping someone who doesn't want help is a waste. But I need to vent and I also have questions:

My friend is always complaining about debt and how they never get ahead financially. I asked her a few questions and find that they have 3 vehicles (2 adults in the house) and 10k in credit card debt. Some of the cards have 18% interest rate and so I suggest consolidating debt for a lower rate. She contacts the credit union and they won't give them a loan. I don't know if their credit is too bad or what. So I suggest selling 1 vehicle. She replies that 2 vehicles are underwater, and the other she needs during the winter for her job (delivering newspapers) because it's a 4x4. I mention that I would take time and look over their finances and see if I could offer any other suggestions. "I handle our finances and we manage just fine."

HUH!?!? You can't get a loan and you are underwater on 3 vehicles. You have consumer debt. At 18%!!! UGH!!!! I know that putting any more energy into helping someone who doesn't want help is futile, but I could probably offer some suggestions.

It really made me think. When I wanted financial help, I asked people who I trusted and who were financially much better off than I was. It's helped me IMMENSELY and I've made thousands from their advice. It seems that people with no money, or lots of debt, don't want help, but people who are better off financially are more open to advice.

Is it being open to advice that gets people financially successful, and do "poor" people stay that way because they aren't open? Or is control over their money the only control that poor people have and they don't want to give that up? Or do some people not want to admit that they don't know it all when it comes to money?

I've been there.  I think the bolded part is key.  When you WANTED help.  They don't seem to want help.  They might in the future, though. 

Hmm.  Come to think of it, we have some friends who have complained about money and how hard it is to save, and how the husband doesn't trust the stock market and puts all his savings into, well, a savings account.  The last time I saw the wife, I offered to look over their finances.  Haven't heard from them since.  I may have scared them off.  It's a darn shame.  But you can't help folks who aren't willing to listen.

[Cassie]

I had a friend ask me to look at her budget so I did. But I never offer because in general it makes people uncomfortable.

[Mikenost12]

It's good you offered to help and are concerned, but it sounds like at this point they don't want help. Everyones advice about backing off or gently mentioning MMM or budgeting would be about it. I know when I first read Dave R, or this website or started budgeting with YNAB, I wanted to tell all my friends and co-workers how great it is. I was suprised people weren't excited about it. I even bought YNAB for my most mathematically inclined friend, who has money issues, but he didn't make use of it.
    I think talking to people about personal finance, even if it could help them, is like when people tell you about their new diet plan, you nod and are polite but...