Author Topic: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset  (Read 3780 times)

FIREin2018

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Examples:
I did something good (ie: cleaned the grout in the shower), i reward myself with ice cream, or a cigarette, or a ..., etc

I never knew this was a thing till a few years ago.
I've never done it.
i completed the chore/task i didn't like then back to what i normally do during that time period like watch tv or surf the web.

What is this reward yourself mindset?
A motivation method to do a chore you don't like?

Laura33

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2024, 11:38:55 AM »
What is this reward yourself mindset?
A motivation method to do a chore you don't like?

Uhhh, yes?  What's the confusion? 

mistymoney

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2024, 11:39:19 AM »
so - you reward yourself with TV time?

jrhampt

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2024, 12:00:01 PM »
I'm not sure why this is so mysterious...

For a personal example, we recently had a year where we had to go through multiple unpleasant medical procedures that would normally be more of a once a decade type of thing.  Since we had to do this 4 times, we decided to reward ourselves with a lobster roll each time. 

Sometimes the reward for doing something onerous in the morning is that we get to do an athletic activity that we enjoy in the afternoon.

wenchsenior

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2024, 12:25:57 PM »
Examples:
I did something good (ie: cleaned the grout in the shower), i reward myself with ice cream, or a cigarette, or a ..., etc

I never knew this was a thing till a few years ago.
I've never done it.
i completed the chore/task i didn't like then back to what i normally do during that time period like watch tv or surf the web.

What is this reward yourself mindset?
A motivation method to do a chore you don't like?

Yes. Very common human adaptation to overcome normal short-term resistance to doing something that pays off in the longer term.

FIREin2018

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2024, 01:15:08 PM »
so - you reward yourself with TV time?
No because that's what i normally do anyway.

FIREin2018

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2024, 01:17:36 PM »
Examples:
I did something good (ie: cleaned the grout in the shower), i reward myself with ice cream, or a cigarette, or a ..., etc

I never knew this was a thing till a few years ago.
I've never done it.
i completed the chore/task i didn't like then back to what i normally do during that time period like watch tv or surf the web.

What is this reward yourself mindset?
A motivation method to do a chore you don't like?

Yes. Very common human adaptation to overcome normal short-term resistance to doing something that pays off in the longer term.
Thx.

Guess i was brought up differently.
I did the chore/task from my parents because that was expected to be part of the household.

As an adult, i did the task because it needed to be done (ie: taxes) or i'll keep thinking about it (ie: dirty grout in shower) so my day would be less enjoyable.

I guess the reward is no longer having that task on my mind?
For me, the reward is mental and not physical?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2024, 01:22:26 PM by FIREin2018 »

wenchsenior

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2024, 02:34:58 PM »
Examples:
I did something good (ie: cleaned the grout in the shower), i reward myself with ice cream, or a cigarette, or a ..., etc

I never knew this was a thing till a few years ago.
I've never done it.
i completed the chore/task i didn't like then back to what i normally do during that time period like watch tv or surf the web.

What is this reward yourself mindset?
A motivation method to do a chore you don't like?

Yes. Very common human adaptation to overcome normal short-term resistance to doing something that pays off in the longer term.
Thx.

Guess i was brought up differently.
I did the chore/task from my parents because that was expected to be part of the household.

As an adult, i did the task because it needed to be done (ie: taxes) or i'll keep thinking about it (ie: dirty grout in shower) so my day would be less enjoyable.

I guess the reward is no longer having that task on my mind?
For me, the reward is mental and not physical?

Right, not everyone has a much inertia or resistance to certain tasks, so for some people there is very little barrier to just getting on with it. Other people (like someone I know) at the other end of the spectrum are functionally paralyzed from doing almost anything that involves any substantive planning or takes longer than a few minutes b/c they have immense mental hurdles to starting when it's easier to just sit on the couch for just another few minutes. This can actually go on for years (and has, in the case of the person I know) unless an outside force/person is there to force them to action.  Most people fall somewhere between and learn self-motivating tricks like reward or effective habit building to overcome their resistance.

mistymoney

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2024, 02:39:11 PM »
so - you reward yourself with TV time?
No because that's what i normally do anyway.

Spoiler: show
Eveyone else was going to have their treats anyway too

baludon

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2024, 04:40:02 PM »
I get it. To me the reward for cleaning dishes is the clean dishes.

Zikoris

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2024, 07:12:06 PM »
I don't really get it either, I think the whole thing is dumb. The natural rewards of getting shit done are more than enough for me. For example, if I spend a few hours prepping all of our meals for the week, I don't need a cookie reward - having my food taken care of the next day is great in and of itself. And vice versa, if I decide to not meal prep that week for some reason, but I want a cookie, I'm going to just make the cookies. I feel like most tasks have some sort of natural reward. The reward for decluttering is finding stuff easily. The reward for laundry is you don't run out of underwear. The reward for fixing your toilet is you can shit in peace. The reward for exercising is feeling good, getting stronger, losing weight.

I just write it off as another way I'm apparently wired differently. I will say it seems incredibly childish for adults to need to reward themselves with ice cream/etc for accomplishing some basic adult task.

Dicey

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2024, 07:28:20 PM »
Right, not everyone has a much inertia or resistance to certain tasks, so for some people there is very little barrier to just getting on with it. Other people (like someone I know) at the other end of the spectrum are functionally paralyzed from doing almost anything that involves any substantive planning or takes longer than a few minutes b/c they have immense mental hurdles to starting when it's easier to just sit on the couch for just another few minutes. This can actually go on for years (and has, in the case of the person I know) unless an outside force/person is there to force them to action.  Most people fall somewhere between and learn self-motivating tricks like reward or effective habit building to overcome their resistance.
This person lives inside of me. Every day it's a battle to get moving and get shit done. It's as if my mind and body are permanently set to "I don't wanna." I do a combination of things to get my ass in gear. Whatever works, as long as you're not drowning in debt.

GuitarStv

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2024, 09:19:53 PM »
I get it. To me the reward for cleaning dishes is the clean dishes.

Agreed.  If I didn't feel like doing the thing was worth doing, I wouldn't have done it to begin with.

HenryDavid

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2024, 09:50:43 AM »
When I hear talk like “I’m rewarding myself with this special treat of a sugary latte or a big old cookie because oh boy I did a normal adult thing that is simply part of life,”
it sounds like self-infantilisation.
Baby need a marshmallow!

But where was it learned?
This is what I wonder.

mistymoney

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2024, 10:53:08 AM »
good lord, what is the big deal if someone likes a tiny reward for something?

I'm glad you all are so morally superior to someone having a chocolate or coffee after cleaning the kitchen. I'm sorry they didn't apply for permission to deviate from your standards.

Laura33

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2024, 11:11:02 AM »
Sigh.  And this is why some of us don't tend to admit to things like this.  Because the best we can expect is "I don't understand," and more often the response is "infantile" or "lazy" or "lack of discipline" or some other critical character flaw.  Same way extroverts cannot understand why introverts need time away from people, or why naturally-thin people don't understand why fat people don't just eat less, or why naturally-athletically-gifted people don't understand why people who aren't don't prioritize getting to the gym because of all the health benefits, or why naturally brilliant people people don't understand why less-gifted folks can't manage the same grades when everything is so obvious to them, or why folks without ADHD cannot understand why folks with ADHD can't just sit still and pay attention.

People are wired differently.  We all have things that come naturally and easily to us, and things that don't.  It's very, very typical to characterize the former as "normal" and the latter as weird or different or abnormal or lesser-than in some way.  But that's very self-limiting.  Those differences create opportunity:  if you can do something easily and enjoyably that others find difficult or miserable, those others will often pay you a great deal of money to do it for them.*  The key to long-term happiness and success is to maximize the benefits you get from those things that come easily to you but not others, and to find ways to work with or work around the other stuff. 

Me, I've clearly had undiagnosed ADHD all my life.  It is a total pain in the ass when it comes down to forcing myself to engage with something that is boring (like every single social studies class ever) -- I just go off to planet Zuton, and it takes rather ridiculous amounts of mental effort to force my attention back where it belongs (imagine trying to force together the north ends of two rare-earth magnets -- the more you push, the more they just skitter away at the last second).  The funny thing is no one ever noticed, because I'm the "distracted" version, not the "hyper" version, so all of that struggle is entirely inside my head, and all that effort is entirely invisible to other people.  Honestly, it's fucking exhausting. 

On the flip side, when it's something I'm interested in, it grabs me and won't let go until I've figured it out, and all those brain cells activate, and I can churn out something really, really good in a very short time.  And it's that gift that has been the key to my success at my job; the folks there think I'm freaking brilliant, which has allowed me to succeed and advance, without actually having to put in the same number of hours that many others do.   

It would be great if I could keep my hyperfocus superpower and get rid of my absolute intolerance for boredom.  But they're flip sides of the same coin.  So, yeah, sometimes the workaround to force myself to do something that needs to be done is to promise myself a treat -- like, I got down to one episode remaining of this show that really grabbed me, and I want to watch it NOW, but I know I have to work, so I tell myself, ok, once I get A, B, and C done, I can quit work early and go watch it, rather than waiting until tonight.  And then every time I get distracted from ABC, I remind myself that I have to get that done first.  It is a way to impose an internal structure and create some rules when there are no external structures or bosses to control me.

I'm also a great procrastinator.  Yeah, it's annoying.  OTOH, it is a very effective way to get items 2-20 on the to-do list done, in order to avoid doing that one thing I really truly hate.  Also, you'd be amazed how many things just don't actually have to be done if you ignore them long enough.  ;-)  In a way, that natural tendency toward procrastination helps me be very efficient with my time -- if I hate it enough, I'll either figure out how to make it go away entirely, or find a way to spend one hour instead of three on it. 

So, I mean, sure, you can go along feeling morally superior to me, because you can happily do all the boring shit just because you know it needs to be done -- and I can return the favor and pity you, being stuck with all that boring shit, because I figured out how to spend my time doing more interesting stuff.  That's certainly one option.  But where does any of that get us, each of us running around smugly in our own little self-centered view of the world?  I'd rather spread a little more understanding and tolerance about these kinds of differences, which is why I bother to write all this crap out.  FWIW.

*A/k/a "how to sum up my career in one sentence."

Bruinguy

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2024, 11:25:16 AM »
Sigh.  And this is why some of us don't tend to admit to things like this.  Because the best we can expect is "I don't understand," and more often the response is "infantile" or "lazy" or "lack of discipline" or some other critical character flaw.  Same way extroverts cannot understand why introverts need time away from people, or why naturally-thin people don't understand why fat people don't just eat less, or why naturally-athletically-gifted people don't understand why people who aren't don't prioritize getting to the gym because of all the health benefits, or why naturally brilliant people people don't understand why less-gifted folks can't manage the same grades when everything is so obvious to them, or why folks without ADHD cannot understand why folks with ADHD can't just sit still and pay attention.

People are wired differently.  We all have things that come naturally and easily to us, and things that don't.  It's very, very typical to characterize the former as "normal" and the latter as weird or different or abnormal or lesser-than in some way.  But that's very self-limiting.  Those differences create opportunity:  if you can do something easily and enjoyably that others find difficult or miserable, those others will often pay you a great deal of money to do it for them.*  The key to long-term happiness and success is to maximize the benefits you get from those things that come easily to you but not others, and to find ways to work with or work around the other stuff. 

Me, I've clearly had undiagnosed ADHD all my life.  It is a total pain in the ass when it comes down to forcing myself to engage with something that is boring (like every single social studies class ever) -- I just go off to planet Zuton, and it takes rather ridiculous amounts of mental effort to force my attention back where it belongs (imagine trying to force together the north ends of two rare-earth magnets -- the more you push, the more they just skitter away at the last second).  The funny thing is no one ever noticed, because I'm the "distracted" version, not the "hyper" version, so all of that struggle is entirely inside my head, and all that effort is entirely invisible to other people.  Honestly, it's fucking exhausting. 

On the flip side, when it's something I'm interested in, it grabs me and won't let go until I've figured it out, and all those brain cells activate, and I can churn out something really, really good in a very short time.  And it's that gift that has been the key to my success at my job; the folks there think I'm freaking brilliant, which has allowed me to succeed and advance, without actually having to put in the same number of hours that many others do.   

It would be great if I could keep my hyperfocus superpower and get rid of my absolute intolerance for boredom.  But they're flip sides of the same coin.  So, yeah, sometimes the workaround to force myself to do something that needs to be done is to promise myself a treat -- like, I got down to one episode remaining of this show that really grabbed me, and I want to watch it NOW, but I know I have to work, so I tell myself, ok, once I get A, B, and C done, I can quit work early and go watch it, rather than waiting until tonight.  And then every time I get distracted from ABC, I remind myself that I have to get that done first.  It is a way to impose an internal structure and create some rules when there are no external structures or bosses to control me.

I'm also a great procrastinator.  Yeah, it's annoying.  OTOH, it is a very effective way to get items 2-20 on the to-do list done, in order to avoid doing that one thing I really truly hate.  Also, you'd be amazed how many things just don't actually have to be done if you ignore them long enough.  ;-)  In a way, that natural tendency toward procrastination helps me be very efficient with my time -- if I hate it enough, I'll either figure out how to make it go away entirely, or find a way to spend one hour instead of three on it. 

So, I mean, sure, you can go along feeling morally superior to me, because you can happily do all the boring shit just because you know it needs to be done -- and I can return the favor and pity you, being stuck with all that boring shit, because I figured out how to spend my time doing more interesting stuff.  That's certainly one option.  But where does any of that get us, each of us running around smugly in our own little self-centered view of the world?  I'd rather spread a little more understanding and tolerance about these kinds of differences, which is why I bother to write all this crap out.  FWIW.

*A/k/a "how to sum up my career in one sentence."
Well said.

Just Joe

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2024, 11:25:28 AM »
Right, not everyone has a much inertia or resistance to certain tasks, so for some people there is very little barrier to just getting on with it. Other people (like someone I know) at the other end of the spectrum are functionally paralyzed from doing almost anything that involves any substantive planning or takes longer than a few minutes b/c they have immense mental hurdles to starting when it's easier to just sit on the couch for just another few minutes. This can actually go on for years (and has, in the case of the person I know) unless an outside force/person is there to force them to action.  Most people fall somewhere between and learn self-motivating tricks like reward or effective habit building to overcome their resistance.

ADHD Executive function...

Can look like procrastination to folks who are more self motivated. Am also the distracted type. Some of the time spent here at MMM is time spent avoiding something else. It has been an excellent education and use of my time all the same. .

These symptoms were the source of huge teenage conflict between me and my normie boomer-generation parent who today is only just starting to understand ADHD is a real thing. Still don't think they fully understand it b/c now they are conversationally armchair diagnosing people in their absence.

My own relatively recent understanding has put so much of myself into perspective which I am thankful for. Wish I was more self-aware in my teens and 20s.

Useful reading: https://www.adxs.org/en
« Last Edit: December 19, 2024, 11:41:46 AM by Just Joe »

wenchsenior

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2024, 12:12:39 PM »
Right, not everyone has a much inertia or resistance to certain tasks, so for some people there is very little barrier to just getting on with it. Other people (like someone I know) at the other end of the spectrum are functionally paralyzed from doing almost anything that involves any substantive planning or takes longer than a few minutes b/c they have immense mental hurdles to starting when it's easier to just sit on the couch for just another few minutes. This can actually go on for years (and has, in the case of the person I know) unless an outside force/person is there to force them to action.  Most people fall somewhere between and learn self-motivating tricks like reward or effective habit building to overcome their resistance.

ADHD Executive function...

Can look like procrastination to folks who are more self motivated. Am also the distracted type. Some of the time spent here at MMM is time spent avoiding something else. It has been an excellent education and use of my time all the same. .

These symptoms were the source of huge teenage conflict between me and my normie boomer-generation parent who today is only just starting to understand ADHD is a real thing. Still don't think they fully understand it b/c now they are conversationally armchair diagnosing people in their absence.

My own relatively recent understanding has put so much of myself into perspective which I am thankful for. Wish I was more self-aware in my teens and 20s.

Useful reading: https://www.adxs.org/en

Yes, I only recently realized that adult ADHD often manifests as absence of activity and decision paralysis. The person I know almost certainly has ADHD but when I've suggested this possibility they violently resist both the concept and the idea of being screened for it. I guess at this point in their life it doesn't matter that much (they are old) and getting a diagnosis might only serve to create even more despair at how much better their life could have been if they'd been diagnosed and treated young. Too late now.

wenchsenior

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2024, 12:14:27 PM »
Sigh.  And this is why some of us don't tend to admit to things like this.  Because the best we can expect is "I don't understand," and more often the response is "infantile" or "lazy" or "lack of discipline" or some other critical character flaw.  Same way extroverts cannot understand why introverts need time away from people, or why naturally-thin people don't understand why fat people don't just eat less, or why naturally-athletically-gifted people don't understand why people who aren't don't prioritize getting to the gym because of all the health benefits, or why naturally brilliant people people don't understand why less-gifted folks can't manage the same grades when everything is so obvious to them, or why folks without ADHD cannot understand why folks with ADHD can't just sit still and pay attention.

People are wired differently.  We all have things that come naturally and easily to us, and things that don't.  It's very, very typical to characterize the former as "normal" and the latter as weird or different or abnormal or lesser-than in some way.  But that's very self-limiting.  Those differences create opportunity:  if you can do something easily and enjoyably that others find difficult or miserable, those others will often pay you a great deal of money to do it for them.*  The key to long-term happiness and success is to maximize the benefits you get from those things that come easily to you but not others, and to find ways to work with or work around the other stuff. 

Me, I've clearly had undiagnosed ADHD all my life.  It is a total pain in the ass when it comes down to forcing myself to engage with something that is boring (like every single social studies class ever) -- I just go off to planet Zuton, and it takes rather ridiculous amounts of mental effort to force my attention back where it belongs (imagine trying to force together the north ends of two rare-earth magnets -- the more you push, the more they just skitter away at the last second).  The funny thing is no one ever noticed, because I'm the "distracted" version, not the "hyper" version, so all of that struggle is entirely inside my head, and all that effort is entirely invisible to other people.  Honestly, it's fucking exhausting. 

On the flip side, when it's something I'm interested in, it grabs me and won't let go until I've figured it out, and all those brain cells activate, and I can churn out something really, really good in a very short time.  And it's that gift that has been the key to my success at my job; the folks there think I'm freaking brilliant, which has allowed me to succeed and advance, without actually having to put in the same number of hours that many others do.   

It would be great if I could keep my hyperfocus superpower and get rid of my absolute intolerance for boredom.  But they're flip sides of the same coin.  So, yeah, sometimes the workaround to force myself to do something that needs to be done is to promise myself a treat -- like, I got down to one episode remaining of this show that really grabbed me, and I want to watch it NOW, but I know I have to work, so I tell myself, ok, once I get A, B, and C done, I can quit work early and go watch it, rather than waiting until tonight.  And then every time I get distracted from ABC, I remind myself that I have to get that done first.  It is a way to impose an internal structure and create some rules when there are no external structures or bosses to control me.

I'm also a great procrastinator.  Yeah, it's annoying.  OTOH, it is a very effective way to get items 2-20 on the to-do list done, in order to avoid doing that one thing I really truly hate.  Also, you'd be amazed how many things just don't actually have to be done if you ignore them long enough.  ;-)  In a way, that natural tendency toward procrastination helps me be very efficient with my time -- if I hate it enough, I'll either figure out how to make it go away entirely, or find a way to spend one hour instead of three on it. 

So, I mean, sure, you can go along feeling morally superior to me, because you can happily do all the boring shit just because you know it needs to be done -- and I can return the favor and pity you, being stuck with all that boring shit, because I figured out how to spend my time doing more interesting stuff.  That's certainly one option.  But where does any of that get us, each of us running around smugly in our own little self-centered view of the world?  I'd rather spread a little more understanding and tolerance about these kinds of differences, which is why I bother to write all this crap out.  FWIW.

*A/k/a "how to sum up my career in one sentence."
Well said.

Great post. It astonishes me how many people are convinced that everyone should function just like they do, despite massive variation in genetics, personality, socialization, life experience, and so on.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2024, 12:25:41 PM »
This post was a depressing read. I have a kid with ADHD, and while I am not wired that way, the amount of judgement thrown around for people different than you is really sad. Thanks to @Laura33 for finding the words.

Those folks who have created reward mechanisms for themselves are actually 1) understanding how they work and 2) creating systems and processes to get the most from themselves.

GuitarStv

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2024, 12:51:05 PM »
good lord, what is the big deal if someone likes a tiny reward for something?

I'm glad you all are so morally superior to someone having a chocolate or coffee after cleaning the kitchen. I'm sorry they didn't apply for permission to deviate from your standards.

Not moral superiority (at least on my part).

I know myself reasonably well at this point in life.  If I can justify a reward like having a chocolate after doing house cleaning, then I'm going to want that reward every time I do that task.  And I'm going to start applying it to other tasks too (cleaning rooms sucks too, as does doing dishes, and walking the dog, etc.).  And then I'm going to get fat, because my self-control is OK but can easily be subverted by determining that something is a fully justified reward.  This thought process sabotages and undercuts any self-control I've managed to scrape together around chocolate.

Absolutely, this is a me problem.  In some (admittedly minor) ways I'm like an alcoholic when it comes to junk food so for me this sort of practice is dangerous.  If I can recognize that doing the task itself is a reward, that danger is removed - so that's what I'd always advocate for.  And sure, some people can drink more responsibly . . . but I'd still argue that the healthiest option is not to drink at all.

Metalcat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2024, 12:58:30 PM »
Is it really hard to grasp that different people are motivated differently??

Some people are motivated by reward, some by praise, some by competition, some by performance goals.

Different people are different.

Just Joe

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2024, 03:17:17 PM »
Right, not everyone has a much inertia or resistance to certain tasks, so for some people there is very little barrier to just getting on with it. Other people (like someone I know) at the other end of the spectrum are functionally paralyzed from doing almost anything that involves any substantive planning or takes longer than a few minutes b/c they have immense mental hurdles to starting when it's easier to just sit on the couch for just another few minutes. This can actually go on for years (and has, in the case of the person I know) unless an outside force/person is there to force them to action.  Most people fall somewhere between and learn self-motivating tricks like reward or effective habit building to overcome their resistance.

ADHD Executive function...

Can look like procrastination to folks who are more self motivated. Am also the distracted type. Some of the time spent here at MMM is time spent avoiding something else. It has been an excellent education and use of my time all the same. .

These symptoms were the source of huge teenage conflict between me and my normie boomer-generation parent who today is only just starting to understand ADHD is a real thing. Still don't think they fully understand it b/c now they are conversationally armchair diagnosing people in their absence.

My own relatively recent understanding has put so much of myself into perspective which I am thankful for. Wish I was more self-aware in my teens and 20s.

Useful reading: https://www.adxs.org/en

Yes, I only recently realized that adult ADHD often manifests as absence of activity and decision paralysis. The person I know almost certainly has ADHD but when I've suggested this possibility they violently resist both the concept and the idea of being screened for it. I guess at this point in their life it doesn't matter that much (they are old) and getting a diagnosis might only serve to create even more despair at how much better their life could have been if they'd been diagnosed and treated young. Too late now.

Yes, you know your person the best.

For me, it was a huge relief. An explaination for all the trials and tribulations that I experienced in life. It also put to rest the notion that some of my personality traits were not in fact character flaws. I will not ever have an airing of grievances with my father about those topics, but there is alot that they did that was very wrong - such as punishing a kid for poor academic results when the kid is having serious academic problems beyond their control. Also, it was the 80s. People - especially my parents' generation - just didn't know.

Heck, our kid had their own issues and we didn't understand it until recently - about the same time I figured out my own list of topics. ;)

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2024, 04:32:47 PM »
@Just Joe - as a parent of a newly emerging adult (18) with ADHD, who is tackling a lot of hard stuff, I'm really trying to learn & figure out how to best support. It's hard on both sides. To some of the comments on the thread, I think of how I get things done & what motivates me, and parenting someone an absolute world apart from that is a challenge. I can imagine what a relief it would be in adulthood to understand more about your wiring, and that you do not have character flaws. I'm glad you've had that clarity.

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2024, 04:51:22 PM »
@Just Joe - as a parent of a newly emerging adult (18) with ADHD, who is tackling a lot of hard stuff, I'm really trying to learn & figure out how to best support. It's hard on both sides. To some of the comments on the thread, I think of how I get things done & what motivates me, and parenting someone an absolute world apart from that is a challenge. I can imagine what a relief it would be in adulthood to understand more about your wiring, and that you do not have character flaws. I'm glad you've had that clarity.

I work with a lot of neurodivergent folks, and deprogramming the internalized narratives that the way they function is "wrong" or "defective" is a HUGE part of my work.

HenryDavid

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2024, 05:04:53 PM »
I honestly did not appreciate the stakes that might be touched on in my comment. Apologies for my ignorance in this regard.
It’s certainly not a matter of moral superiority. Perhaps I’m hyper-vigilant about advertising voices etc that are always trying to exploit people with “you deserve it” language. My comment was meant to be aimed toward that kind of thing.

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2024, 05:31:17 PM »
Wow.  I suspect every one of us has a life, that, if dissected, would run up plenty of irrational, confusing, or even contradictory things. 

But yes, by all means, pile on to and judge one of those things that is common among neurodivergent people (and plenty of others), even though it is not inherently harmful, wasteful, or problematic and the only thing wrong with it is that it doesn't resonate with your own thinking patterns.

Yeah, it's definitely their confusing motivation strategies that are the problem and *certainly* them rewarding themselves is way worse than judging them for that.  Yes indeed.

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2024, 05:44:09 PM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

twinstudy

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2024, 06:00:00 PM »
I get it. To me the reward for cleaning dishes is the clean dishes.

Agreed.  If I didn't feel like doing the thing was worth doing, I wouldn't have done it to begin with.

Not everything in life can be sheeted home as being intrinsically rewarding. I find some things certainly are - exercise, reading, certain forms of knowledge acquisition. But chores? I'm pretty neutral about that. There's nothing, to me, inherently good about having a vacuumed carpet. I do it because I have to do it. There's no element of worthiness or unworthiness. So if a small reward will motivate me, then all the better.

Put it this way - for many of us, work can have some inherently worthwhile qualities, but it's not wholly so: that's why we don't work for free, and that's why we want to retire early. The fact then that I accept (and in fact demand) a monetary reward for doing my work doesn't mean that I'm a bad worker or that I'm lazy. Indeed, I find I work harder when I'm given a particularly high-paying brief due to extrinsic motivation adding onto my intrinsic motivation to do a good professional job.

Villanelle

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2024, 06:47:40 PM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

Another character flaw is judging and casting aspersions at people whose brains work differently than yours. But on the plus side, these people are probably better off with you distancing yourself from them. 

Just Joe

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2024, 07:24:53 PM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

Don't come to my house then. You won't be happy here. We aren't animals but we will never be ready for company with high expectations. There is always something that could be better even when the house is at it's best. I've been avoiding cleaning all day today for indeterminate reasons. I did accomplish several things but no where near the dozen things I had on my mental list 12 hours ago. I did perhaps half of it and not because of time constraints.

Tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow b/c I have deadlines. Deadlines motivate me correctly. DW and offspring will return home tomorrow too and I have to drive to the airport in another city to fetch them. I want them to come home to a cleaner house than they departed for a trip.

Tomorrow is the last day I'll have an opportunity to run to the trash transfer station, run to the bank, and I need to complete several minor outside chores. Sunday and on we have holiday stuff happening. Avoiding doing the tasks today I wasted a day I could have spent with my hobbies. I did do some improtant reading, did talk to my sibling about several important family topics, and I did several other constructive things - all part of chore/task avoidance today. Yay... Or not. The opportunity cost of today was great. On the other hand I spent dawn until late last night in another city looking after my parents.

See the deals going on in my head? Welcome to my brain. So I had a cookie tonight and watched a bit of TV for being a good boy.

mistymoney

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2024, 09:13:01 PM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

But what about the !!glutons!! who eat ice cream when they haven't even done a damn thing for it!

those rat bastards!

spartana

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2024, 11:56:40 PM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

Don't come to my house then. You won't be happy here. We aren't animals but we will never be ready for company with high expectations. There is always something that could be better even when the house is at it's best. I've been avoiding cleaning all day today for indeterminate reasons. I did accomplish several things but no where near the dozen things I had on my mental list 12 hours ago. I did perhaps half of it and not because of time constraints.

Tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow b/c I have deadlines. Deadlines motivate me correctly. DW and offspring will return home tomorrow too and I have to drive to the airport in another city to fetch them. I want them to come home to a cleaner house than they departed for a trip.

Tomorrow is the last day I'll have an opportunity to run to the trash transfer station, run to the bank, and I need to complete several minor outside chores. Sunday and on we have holiday stuff happening. Avoiding doing the tasks today I wasted a day I could have spent with my hobbies. I did do some improtant reading, did talk to my sibling about several important family topics, and I did several other constructive things - all part of chore/task avoidance today. Yay... Or not. The opportunity cost of today was great. On the other hand I spent dawn until late last night in another city looking after my parents.

See the deals going on in my head? Welcome to my brain. So I had a cookie tonight and watched a bit of TV for being a good boy.
Are you me?! I am pretty lazy about household chores and will do many things to avoid them. I like the one-off chores like yard work and DIY projects but OMG if dreaded laundry or cleaning or cooking or shopping or the like has to be done I'll find a million other things (excuses) not to do that stuff. Like right now I have zero food in the fridge and am down to my last clean pair of Under-roos. I probably should do laundry and get food but...nah. So I sit in my recliner online on my phone and doing nothing!  BF is out of state otherwise I'd ask him to go get me food ;-).  I don't reward myself for doing stuff, but I am socially motivated to do chores if I know people are coming over. Since we have a very minimal household with few things it's actually super easy to clean.

ETA actually I did reward myself today because I put Christmas lights on the house and put up a tree and decorated it and wrapped a few presents. Wanted to surprise BF when he comes home on Sat (he's been gone almost a month). Then I ate veggie sushi and Nutty Buddy's. The fact that I'd eat those anyways even if I did nothing all day is besides the point ;-).
« Last Edit: December 20, 2024, 12:06:45 AM by spartana »

vand

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2024, 03:22:30 AM »
for some reason Blackadder comes to mind:

As a reward, Baldrick, take a short holiday..

(1 second pause)

..did you enjoy it?

Metalcat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2024, 03:36:09 AM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

Yep, that's mean, and extremely ableist.

It's also exactly the reason why some of the most kind-hearted, hardest working, humblest people I've ever met spend thousands of dollars for me to help them stop believing that they're "monsters."

Take a second and realize that the person who generates a system of rewards so that they will get something done is actually motivated to do that thing.

There's a massive difference between someone who is perfectly able to clean their house, but chooses not to, and a person who wants to clean their house but struggles with task execution and has figured out that tapping into the reward circuits of their own brain is an effective way to direct their own behaviour.

That takes motivation and effort. That's not someone who is lazy, that's someone who is motivated to problem solved through simple systems.

So go ahead and be mean to people whose brains function differently from yours, who are developing systems to manage their lives as effectively as they can because they do actually care. But I've known you here for years and that doesn't strike me as your character.

Now, if we're talking about the other case, the one where the person IS perfectly capable of taking care of shit, but just doesn't care enough to do it, and will only do it for a bribe from someone else, then yeah, that's an epic level of lazy.

I recently saw on social.media a woman made a chore list for her family with stickers, and each person collected stickers and got a prize. The husband's prize for doing basic adult shit around the house was a blow job.

I have no idea if it's real or rage bait, but I do know that those kind of bribes for basic adulting among couples are very real, and those make my skin crawl because that's not needing to bribe yourself to do things you know are important, that's extorting your partner by holding basic tasks ransom.

I happily judge those folks, but I do not judge the folks who are just working with what they've psychologically got going on so that they can get important shit done.

Metalcat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2024, 03:49:39 AM »
Wow.  I suspect every one of us has a life, that, if dissected, would run up plenty of irrational, confusing, or even contradictory things. 

But yes, by all means, pile on to and judge one of those things that is common among neurodivergent people (and plenty of others), even though it is not inherently harmful, wasteful, or problematic and the only thing wrong with it is that it doesn't resonate with your own thinking patterns.

Yeah, it's definitely their confusing motivation strategies that are the problem and *certainly* them rewarding themselves is way worse than judging them for that.  Yes indeed.

1000% this.

Each individual thinks what they do is rational ONLY because it fits with what they developed as a framework of understanding. 

Everyone does shit that other people find irrational. Lol, all you have to do is spend some time talking to just about any person with a spouse and you will get a laundry list of their infuriatingly "irrational" behaviours, and that's from the person who they are really, really compatible with, much less someone with totally different values, priorities, beliefs, habit, etc.

In my experience, people who describe themselves as "rational not emotional" are just people whose understanding of human behaviour is largely limited to their own.

Metalcat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2024, 04:06:36 AM »
I honestly did not appreciate the stakes that might be touched on in my comment. Apologies for my ignorance in this regard.
It’s certainly not a matter of moral superiority. Perhaps I’m hyper-vigilant about advertising voices etc that are always trying to exploit people with “you deserve it” language. My comment was meant to be aimed toward that kind of thing.

There's a HUGE difference between saying you disagree with a certain marketing practice and putting down people whose task-related behaviours differ from yours.

I'm literally an expert on habits, people pay me to help them with habits because I'm so effective at helping people restructure their ways of thinking and behaving.

We have reward circuits in our brains. Reward plays a massive role in governing human behaviour. So yes, we should be careful about the systems of rewards we expose ourselves to. But it's laughable to judge people for being motivated by a chunk of their brain that's designed to be motivated that way.

classicrando

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2024, 05:41:57 AM »
Is it really hard to grasp that different people are motivated differently??

Some people are motivated by reward, some by praise, some by competition, some by performance goals.

Different people are different.

Man, if you pet my hair and tell me I'm pretty, I will move an entire mountain for you. lol

Metalcat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2024, 06:13:05 AM »
Is it really hard to grasp that different people are motivated differently??

Some people are motivated by reward, some by praise, some by competition, some by performance goals.

Different people are different.

Man, if you pet my hair and tell me I'm pretty, I will move an entire mountain for you. lol


Lol, and hilarious, I find praise largely aversive, especially praise about my appearance.

Different people are different.

cpa cat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2024, 07:19:42 AM »
This is the MMM forum, so I assume the disconnect here is that MMM attracts ascetics, who view self-denial and self-discipline as morally valuable.

Personally, I am highly money-motivated, so I like to reward myself when meeting certain self-imposed financial goals, in order to remind myself that life is about more than hoarding my wealth like a dragon.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2024, 08:10:19 AM »
In case anyone wants some reassurance from the non-neurodivergent; I'm the Commanding Officer of a big ol ship. Responsible for the life of 50-ish people under my command, and around $100 million in assets. Twenty years into my career, with promotions and blah, blah. By all accounts, a pretty successful adult and leader.

I reward myself for exercising, which I hate, by putting a smiley face sticker on my wall calendar. And the only way I'll fold the laundry is  the assurance that I can guilt-free read some fan fiction afterwards.

Brains like rewards. It all seems pretty innocent. But I'm just a humble government servant, about to not get paid over Christmas. Take this free musing for what it's worth.

GuitarStv

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2024, 08:12:32 AM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

But what about the !!glutons!! who eat ice cream when they haven't even done a damn thing for it!

those rat bastards!

I feel personally attacked by these vicious comments.  :P

Ron Scott

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2024, 08:21:37 AM »
Is it really hard to grasp that different people are motivated differently??

Some people are motivated by reward, some by praise, some by competition, some by performance goals.

Different people are different.

This is pretty much it.

I never thought the concept of “rewarding myself” for work or doing good, etc. made any sense for me as I felt a huge silliness about it…to me. But it seems to work for others so whatever.

I personally am motivated by achievement. Work well-done/completed and the resultant work product always made the effort worthwhile…to me.

Loren Ver

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2024, 08:40:31 AM »
DH does not like his face touched by strangers especially around his eyes. It activates his jerk back response like nobodies business. This is normally fine, except when it comes to eye exams, which he happens to need a LOT of due to lots of eye problems.  Those eye pressure tests a the WORST.  It can take 3-5 tries to get each eye.  They will also have to switch from the machine to the hand held device.  Sometimes they take him out of the examine chair and put him in a regular chair braced against the wall so he can't move. It's a thing, and its a pain, and frustrating for everyone involved. This is a normal adult procedure, but he just can't do it, and has never been able to do it.   

So as totally rational adults we decided that if he gets the eye pressure test done in one try he gets an ice cream, to be used whenever he wants. 

It works.  He loves ice cream.  He likes to hold the ice cream until we go on vacation or have a hard work day and then he declares EYE POKE ICE CREAM and we go out.  This has worked for the past four years and several eye surgeries with LOTS and LOTs of follow ups.

Are we treating him like he is a gradeschooler?  Sure.  Is it saving the doctors and staff at three different eye clinics from dealing with a 40 year old jerking flailing man, also yes.  Does it work every time.  No.  That reflex is rough, but we are so much better now.  Maybe 50-60% success, but that is soo much better than, what it was.  And he is so proud of himself when he earns his ice cream. 

Maybe one day he wont need the crutch any more.  No one gets ice cream when I get my eye pokes done, because I don't have this struggle.  But that doesn't mean I hold him to the same standard, he isn't me.  His struggles are just as real as mine, even if they are different.    So for now, it is saving a lot of everyone's time and effort and I get to enjoy ice cream with my DH as we troubleshoot our way through life together. 

Loren

Metalcat

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2024, 08:56:31 AM »
This is the MMM forum, so I assume the disconnect here is that MMM attracts ascetics, who view self-denial and self-discipline as morally valuable.

Personally, I am highly money-motivated, so I like to reward myself when meeting certain self-imposed financial goals, in order to remind myself that life is about more than hoarding my wealth like a dragon.

Rewards aren't necessarily consumerist gifts though.

For some, a reward might be time reading a book, or making a nice tea. Reward-based systems of motivation can be extremely Mustachian.

Laura33

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2024, 09:02:23 AM »
There's a massive difference between someone who is perfectly able to clean their house, but chooses not to, and a person who wants to clean their house but struggles with task execution and has figured out that tapping into the reward circuits of their own brain is an effective way to direct their own behaviour.

That takes motivation and effort. That's not someone who is lazy, that's someone who is motivated to problem solved through simple systems.

The real problem is that it is impossible to tell from a 30-second interaction who falls into which category.  And yet we default to assuming the "character flaw" explanation and judging what we don't know.

For literally years my mom and stepdad thought my stepbrother was smart-but-lazy.  Turns out he has absolutely crippling depression and anxiety.  He has learned to manage that well enough to hold down a steady job -- with benefits! -- for something like a decade now.  Even though he will never move out of his mom's basement, he is happy, even has a nice girlfriend.  People who don't know him might consider him a loser, a classic lazy failure-to-launch.  But those of us who actually know him and love him are absolutely fucking thrilled with everything he's accomplished and extremely proud of him.

OP:  FWIW, I was not responding to your initial post; you had a question, people answered it, you said, "huh, ok, never thought of that."  It was some of the follow-on comments that got into "character flaw" territory that really set me off.

wenchsenior

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2024, 11:05:38 AM »
I'll be the meanie and say it, if a person is an adult and will live in filth unless they bribe themselves with ice cream to do basic functional-adult stuff, I think that is absolutely a character flaw, and I would distance myself from any person like that in real life.

Wow.

mistymoney

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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2024, 11:19:25 AM »
There's a massive difference between someone who is perfectly able to clean their house, but chooses not to, and a person who wants to clean their house but struggles with task execution and has figured out that tapping into the reward circuits of their own brain is an effective way to direct their own behaviour.

That takes motivation and effort. That's not someone who is lazy, that's someone who is motivated to problem solved through simple systems.

The real problem is that it is impossible to tell from a 30-second interaction who falls into which category.  And yet we default to assuming the "character flaw" explanation and judging what we don't know.

For literally years my mom and stepdad thought my stepbrother was smart-but-lazy.  Turns out he has absolutely crippling depression and anxiety.  He has learned to manage that well enough to hold down a steady job -- with benefits! -- for something like a decade now.  Even though he will never move out of his mom's basement, he is happy, even has a nice girlfriend.  People who don't know him might consider him a loser, a classic lazy failure-to-launch.  But those of us who actually know him and love him are absolutely fucking thrilled with everything he's accomplished and extremely proud of him.

OP:  FWIW, I was not responding to your initial post; you had a question, people answered it, you said, "huh, ok, never thought of that."  It was some of the follow-on comments that got into "character flaw" territory that really set me off.

I also think we are too invested in people having certain 'diagnoses' before we accept them as they are, rather than assuming that most people are doing the best they can with what they've got most of the time and work with them where they are at.

There is nothing magical about going to a therapist or psychiatrist and getting a diagnosis. It may be explanatory and provide help, for sure. Maybe some medication that helps, too. But it doesn't mean that those who are trying to work with what they have without that are in any less need of acceptance. Particularly if all they are doing is having a cookie after cleaning the kitchen!

And inbetween "normal" and a formal "diagnosis" are infinite shades of human experience and behavior.

If anyone doesn't want to be friends with someone who has dishes in the sink most of the time unless they have a cookie for washing up (!), I guess that is their prerogative. When I think of the qualities that I would look for in a friend, it would not accur to me to care how they managed to get their dishes done. If their house was a pigsty, I would meetup with them in other venues, unless I was helping them clean up.

Other peoples dirt is always more distressing than your own, I think!


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Re: Rewarding yourself for doing something good? Don't understand this mindset
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2024, 05:16:30 PM »
There's a massive difference between someone who is perfectly able to clean their house, but chooses not to, and a person who wants to clean their house but struggles with task execution and has figured out that tapping into the reward circuits of their own brain is an effective way to direct their own behaviour.

That takes motivation and effort. That's not someone who is lazy, that's someone who is motivated to problem solved through simple systems.

The real problem is that it is impossible to tell from a 30-second interaction who falls into which category.  And yet we default to assuming the "character flaw" explanation and judging what we don't know.

For literally years my mom and stepdad thought my stepbrother was smart-but-lazy.  Turns out he has absolutely crippling depression and anxiety.  He has learned to manage that well enough to hold down a steady job -- with benefits! -- for something like a decade now.  Even though he will never move out of his mom's basement, he is happy, even has a nice girlfriend.  People who don't know him might consider him a loser, a classic lazy failure-to-launch.  But those of us who actually know him and love him are absolutely fucking thrilled with everything he's accomplished and extremely proud of him.

OP:  FWIW, I was not responding to your initial post; you had a question, people answered it, you said, "huh, ok, never thought of that."  It was some of the follow-on comments that got into "character flaw" territory that really set me off.

I also think we are too invested in people having certain 'diagnoses' before we accept them as they are, rather than assuming that most people are doing the best they can with what they've got most of the time and work with them where they are at.

There is nothing magical about going to a therapist or psychiatrist and getting a diagnosis. It may be explanatory and provide help, for sure. Maybe some medication that helps, too. But it doesn't mean that those who are trying to work with what they have without that are in any less need of acceptance. Particularly if all they are doing is having a cookie after cleaning the kitchen!

And inbetween "normal" and a formal "diagnosis" are infinite shades of human experience and behavior.

If anyone doesn't want to be friends with someone who has dishes in the sink most of the time unless they have a cookie for washing up (!), I guess that is their prerogative. When I think of the qualities that I would look for in a friend, it would not accur to me to care how they managed to get their dishes done. If their house was a pigsty, I would meetup with them in other venues, unless I was helping them clean up.

Other peoples dirt is always more distressing than your own, I think!

As a therapist myself, I totally agree with you.

A LOT of my work is depathologizing neurodiversity and framing it more in the realm of diversity not dysfunction.

Neurodiverse people are not broken people with an excuse for not functioning properly. That's often how diagnosis is perceived and internalized by clients.

But also, this isn't a neurodiverse thing. Plenty of folks struggle with actually executing behaviours they want to engage in.

If just doing what you thought was important to do was easy, no one would every struggle to eat better and exercise regularly, or save money, or put enough energy into their loved ones, or train their dogs properly, or, or, or...

Human behaviour and motivation is a complex creature.