Returning to a Former Employer

[goalphish2002]

Hi,

I left Company A approximately a year ago.  I was there 5.5 years and left making 55K- I started at 32K.  I went to Company B for 60K and was offered a management position for 65K after only 6 weeks.  I left after 8 months for an opportunity at my current job- making 68K with bonus opportunity.  Now, Company A is calling me back to interview.

How do I approach this?  Company A is closer to home, I had a private office, loved my coworkers, and flexible hours.  The issue is money.  I am asking for mid 70's.  I essentially will have given myself a 40% raise to leave for one year and let them understand what I was really worth.  My responsibilities will be different.  I will have some direct reports to manage.

I'm just curious how to deal with my former boss who was a mentor and is still a friend.  I want the most income I can get out of my work.  I have never negotiated as a boomerang employee.

[Edubb20]

Let them know that you think they are a great company and also let them know what your salary expectations are.  Being respectful and straight forward has always worked out for me.  Some may say to lay off the compliments in a negotiation, but I'm a firm believer that "buying in" to the employer actually makes them more inclined to pay you what you're worth.

[moof]

It's just business.  Be cordial and enthusiastic, but also be clear with them and yourself that this is a business transaction.  Have a firm number, and recognize that what you are currently paid, or what company A previously paid you are mostly irrelevant.  Do a market survey with whatever resources you can get access to, and use that market range to start discussions, you were likely getting short changed before.

Most of all, other than broad ranges, don't talk about salary details until after interviewing.  Once a decision has been made by the hiring team, the HR manager is now between a rock and a hard place.  They get a lot of grief if the preferred choice can't be reeled in, use this to your advantage.

Lastly, this is your one and only chance to easily get some perks.  I asked and easily got an extra week of vacation when I hired on, which was much easier for HR to grant than a 2% higher salary (which is equivalent at the end of the day).  Once you are on the phone with the HR manager dealing with details you have them by the nads, but it won't feel like it.

[COEE]

I would probably never work for a previous employer.  For the same reason that I wouldn't want to do my undergrad and graduate school at the same university.  They will see you as the young wippersnapper that you were before - it's hard to break those sort of stigmas.  Of course, this assumes that you were green when you started there the first time - and it sounds like you were.

I would use this as negotiation tool to increase your salary with your current employer.

[goalphish2002]

I would probably never work for a previous employer.  For the same reason that I wouldn't want to do my undergrad and graduate school at the same university.  They will see you as the young wippersnapper that you were before - it's hard to break those sort of stigmas.  Of course, this assumes that you were green when you started there the first time - and it sounds like you were.

I would use this as negotiation tool to increase your salary with your current employer.

Well there are advantages- It would cut my commute by 1/2 hour, I'll have an office there, whereas I have a cube here, free parking vs. $80 month here, $100 a month for my cell phone that I don't get here, better experience and learning opportunities, and a raise.  It's really my best option, but I don't want them to know all of this of course.  I want to be firm. 

The free parking and iphone reimbursement are 2K off the top...  But I want a 10K raise if possible.

[ender]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

[Gimesalot]

I have done something similar.  I started at Company A and was there for four years.  It felt like the company was going out of business, so I jumped ship and went to Company B.  Almost immediately, I realized I had made a mistake, but it was too late.  I stuck it out for three years before moving to Company C.  Due to bad management, I made it there 3 months.  I moved back to Company A after being gone about 3 years.  I returned making about $40k more per year. 

I also never intended to change jobs so much.  I used to be one of those people that just wanted one employer forever.  In the end, it hasn't impacted me at all. I am very happy I went back to Company A.  I say that you do it.

[goalphish2002]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

Well, I am only entertaining it because its a former employer that I could stay at for a good length of time going forward.  This is a trend in Atlanta.  People seem to move around a lot in accounting in big cities.  Sometimes, it is the only way to get a good raise or growth. 

And honestly- how would other companies actually know I left for a year?  Say I go back to Company A and stay another 5 years.  My resume will just show me as being there the entire time.  Is that 100% honest?  No, but I've never worked at a company that was 100% honest with me about their intentions everytime.  I could also show I was a consultant/contract employee for a year on my resume.  But my boss there and HR manager wouldn't say anything different on a reference check.  Some companies do credit checks to see past employee history.  I would be aware of that before applying and adjust accordingly.   

[J Boogie]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

Well, I am only entertaining it because its a former employer that I could stay at for a good length of time going forward.  This is a trend in Atlanta.  People seem to move around a lot in accounting in big cities.  Sometimes, it is the only way to get a good raise or growth. 

And honestly- how would other companies actually know I left for a year?  Say I go back to Company A and stay another 5 years.  My resume will just show me as being there the entire time.  Is that 100% honest?  No, but I've never worked at a company that was 100% honest with me about their intentions everytime.  I could also show I was a consultant/contract employee for a year on my resume.  But my boss there and HR manager wouldn't say anything different on a reference check.  Some companies do credit checks to see past employee history.  I would be aware of that before applying and adjust accordingly.

If you stay at company A for a while, I don't think anyone will write you off as a job hopper.

And you're right, while it's not 110% honest to list your every move on your resume, whoever reads your resume isn't going to find every little move you made all that relevant.  Your skills and experience are relevant, and you're not being dishonest about them.   It's good to filter out the noise on a resume so the reader can get a sense of what you can do without having to re-read it 5 times.

[fattest_foot]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

I think this was discussed in the job hopping thread, but the label of "job hopper" is probably less important for a Mustachian who might only have a working career for 10-20 years total.

[Spork]

I returned to a former employer after about a month.  It was fresh in their mind that I was a good employee.  They were willing to negotiate in salary.  They were willing to do some gymnastics to make it look like I never even left.  (In other words, still vested, same vacation, etc.)

I can't say I had any ills from this.  In fact, I think my initial leaving was a wakeup call that things needed to change some.  Both myself and one other important employee left, so they really understood something was amiss.

[MrMoogle]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

I think this was discussed in the job hopping thread, but the label of "job hopper" is probably less important for a Mustachian who might only have a working career for 10-20 years total.

I'm not sure being labeled a "job hopper" is that negative anyway, as long as you have a story to go with it.  The second hop might look a little bad, but I don't think this one would.  Especially if you stay here 2-3 years or more.  If anything it shows that your first company really valued you, to take you back with a huge raise.

[ender]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

Well, I am only entertaining it because its a former employer that I could stay at for a good length of time going forward.  This is a trend in Atlanta.  People seem to move around a lot in accounting in big cities.  Sometimes, it is the only way to get a good raise or growth. 

And honestly- how would other companies actually know I left for a year?  Say I go back to Company A and stay another 5 years.  My resume will just show me as being there the entire time.  Is that 100% honest?  No, but I've never worked at a company that was 100% honest with me about their intentions everytime.  I could also show I was a consultant/contract employee for a year on my resume.  But my boss there and HR manager wouldn't say anything different on a reference check.  Some companies do credit checks to see past employee history.  I would be aware of that before applying and adjust accordingly.

If you are planning on blatantly lying on your resume, I guess my advice doesn't apply, you are correct.

[BoonDogle]

I agree with MrMoogle.  If an employee that interned or worked for a company was offered a job or returned to the same company, to me it shows they were a good enough employee that the company wanted them back.  That is a plus for me.  If an intern was never offered a full time position or an employee was hired and left several different companies, I would consider that a negative.

[goalphish2002]

You are pretty much setting yourself up for a job hopper at this point.

I would be quite cautious about making what appears to be your fourth career move in 8 months.

Well, I am only entertaining it because its a former employer that I could stay at for a good length of time going forward.  This is a trend in Atlanta.  People seem to move around a lot in accounting in big cities.  Sometimes, it is the only way to get a good raise or growth. 

And honestly- how would other companies actually know I left for a year?  Say I go back to Company A and stay another 5 years.  My resume will just show me as being there the entire time.  Is that 100% honest?  No, but I've never worked at a company that was 100% honest with me about their intentions everytime.  I could also show I was a consultant/contract employee for a year on my resume.  But my boss there and HR manager wouldn't say anything different on a reference check.  Some companies do credit checks to see past employee history.  I would be aware of that before applying and adjust accordingly.

If you are planning on blatantly lying on your resume, I guess my advice doesn't apply, you are correct.

It isn't lying if I believe it.  :D

[goalphish2002]

I left a Tier 1 Railroad Pension on the table so I'm obviously not planning to stay anywhere 30 years.  Otherwise, I would have stayed there for less pay, miserable, until I got a pension at an age too old to enjoy it.

[NESailor]

I would probably never work for a previous employer.  For the same reason that I wouldn't want to do my undergrad and graduate school at the same university.  They will see you as the young wippersnapper that you were before - it's hard to break those sort of stigmas.  Of course, this assumes that you were green when you started there the first time - and it sounds like you were.

I would use this as negotiation tool to increase your salary with your current employer.

I am an Accounting Manager at the company I interned at during college.  2 of my direct reports were in the department when I interned.  Seems to work OK.

[TrMama]

I did this. Left a job after a couple years to relocate with my DH and stay home for a while after having our 2nd child. After 2 years off, I called and asked to come back to the same position. Simplest job interview ever. I also negotiated a salary increase. My employer liked that they knew exactly what kind of employee I was and I liked that I knew exactly what kind of employer they were.

In fact, there are several boomerang employees here.

[goalphish2002]

I did this. Left a job after a couple years to relocate with my DH and stay home for a while after having our 2nd child. After 2 years off, I called and asked to come back to the same position. Simplest job interview ever. I also negotiated a salary increase. My employer liked that they knew exactly what kind of employee I was and I liked that I knew exactly what kind of employer they were.

In fact, there are several boomerang employees here.

This is why it is a good fit for me.  We both have realistic expectations about the transaction; they know what they are getting, and I know what to expect.  I just need to negotiate what I think is fair. 

[TrMama]

I'd suggest highlighting the fantastic experience you gained while working at jobs B and C to help you get the higher salary.

You could also point out that they already know from past experience that you'll be a super productive employee so you' expect to be paid accordingly. It's not as if you're an entry-level unknown off the street.

Plus, there's regular old inflation, even if you'd stayed there you'd be making more today than you were 2 years ago.

The one thing I wish I'd pushed harder for was to have my past years of service recognized by HR. Even though I've been with the company since 2006, (with a 2 year break), my service record starts in 2010. Since vacation time increases and retirement matching are doled out according to service time, I'm getting less than I think I'm entitled too.

[goalphish2002]

I'd suggest highlighting the fantastic experience you gained while working at jobs B and C to help you get the higher salary.

You could also point out that they already know from past experience that you'll be a super productive employee so you' expect to be paid accordingly. It's not as if you're an entry-level unknown off the street.

Plus, there's regular old inflation, even if you'd stayed there you'd be making more today than you were 2 years ago.

The one thing I wish I'd pushed harder for was to have my past years of service recognized by HR. Even though I've been with the company since 2006, (with a 2 year break), my service record starts in 2010. Since vacation time increases and retirement matching are doled out according to service time, I'm getting less than I think I'm entitled too.

Thanks for bringing that up.  I thought I'd start back at where I left off as far as vacation but maybe not.  I need to ask about this.

[use2betrix]

I would just realize that you only really get one chance to go back to a former company most likely. After this, if you leave, they likely wouldn't take you again.

It sounds like a job you really liked and wouldn't mind staying a while. I think that IF you return it needs to be with the intention of it lasting.

I was like that with my last company, who I could probably return to at any time. However, I know I really only have one chance. The difference is they paid me about 150k, and I left and made about 250k the first year I left. I told them the money I was leaving for and they understood. Their home office was in a city I could see spending my life in (rare) so basically now I'm making as much as I can the next 5-7 years or so, so that I can afford to take the paycut and go to them and live somewhere I'd want to raise a family. I don't have that with my current employment.

[TheDuder]

If salary was your only hangup with that company, then I wouldn't hesitate to go back for more.

Going from 55K to mid-70's in a year off though, I might want something in writing in my new contract that says I won't get demoted or take pay cut in the next 2 years.

[goalphish2002]

If salary was your only hangup with that company, then I wouldn't hesitate to go back for more.

Going from 55K to mid-70's in a year off though, I might want something in writing in my new contract that says I won't get demoted or take pay cut in the next 2 years.

Well, it is a promotion so I would have gotten say 15% if I had stayed and took it.  That's 63,500.  I would have been happy with it.  But the timing is on my side now.  I am graduating this semester with a master's in accounting.  I am asking for 75K+.  We will see how it goes...

I make 68K now and have bonus potential.  Say I were to get 10% then I'm at 75K here...  I need incentive. 

Btw, they called me.  Now, they do have perks that I want.  I miss the place to be honest, but I don't have much responsibility here for my pay.  If they need me to come back I need CASH!!!

[goalphish2002]

So I was offered the job and asked what I needed.  I asked for 78K.  I put this in writing.  I am awaiting a response.

[goalphish2002]

So I am still waiting...  Should I reach out to them or sit tight?

[mozar]

I would sit tight until next Tuesday. Graduating is a huge deal, have you been interviewing with other jobs as well, at least for leverage?

[goalphish2002]

I would sit tight until next Tuesday. Graduating is a huge deal, have you been interviewing with other jobs as well, at least for leverage?

No, because I have been at my current job less than 5 months.  I thought it would be best to stay here a while.  I am entertaining this because it is a former employer. 

[goalphish2002]

Well...I sent my salary requirements- basically the start of negotiation last Thursday.  Now, here we are without any correspondence back yet...

I know you guys are not that invested in this.  I just feel like venting/giving an update. 

[MrMoogle]

Well...I sent my salary requirements- basically the start of negotiation last Thursday.  Now, here we are without any correspondence back yet...

I know you guys are not that invested in this.  I just feel like venting/giving an update. 

One week?  Is that what you've gotten from other companies?  I've never gotten an offer back within 2 weeks.  I have heard in some cases it could mean they have to get approval for the higher than expected salary.

[MrMoogle]

I'm assuming you've already sent your interview thank you letter?  If not, that could prod them, but being this late, I'm not sure.

[goalphish2002]

It wasn't like that at all.  My former boss and I are friends.  He called me and basically offered me the job over the phone.  It is a small company- 150-200 people.  He asked me to give him my "demands" to come back.  Every other job I've had a company made an offer to me.  This is all different.  I expected him to tell me that I came in too high, and here's what we can do... 

Maybe they are trying to pay the full amount and that's the holdup.  I don't know.   

[Dicey]

They haven't said no yet, riiiiight? I'd exercise a little patience. You know they want you. Perhaps they're doing a little behind the scenes negotiating on your behalf.

Don't be afraid to compromise in other ways. An extra week or two of vacation, rolling your start date back to your original date of hire, faster vesting, etc. Are all valuable perks if the salary dollars don't quite hit the number you have in mind. While you're at it, see if you can give yourself a little time off between jobs.

Wait! You got your Master's during all of this? That should easily cover the pay bump and the job changes.

BTW - I used to work with a snake charmer who was fired for running an elaborate expense report scheme. Besides being a cheat, he was a good salesman, so about five or six years later, some corporate dumbass with no short-term memory hired him back. The salesman had totally job jumped in the interim. He used to give presentations saying, "I've been with this company since XXXX." He totally glossed over the missing years and just let people assume his employment had been continuous.

[undercover]

I don't think your number is unreasonable, it's just that in that context, they could interpret it as a bit unreasonable considering now they know that you're all about increasing your bottom line as fast as possible. They probably fear you're going to do try to do it again within the next year, hence their hesitation - though they could honestly just be trying to push it through.

[goalphish2002]

I don't think your number is unreasonable, it's just that in that context, they could interpret it as a bit unreasonable considering now they know that you're all about increasing your bottom line as fast as possible. They probably fear you're going to do try to do it again within the next year, hence their hesitation - though they could honestly just be trying to push it through.

This is true, and I think it is sort of the problem.  However, they called me with a problem to solve.  They are asking me to hop back- I didn't call them.  So, I need an increase to go back.  I won't go back for nostalgia.

I didn't give you guys the entire backstory though.  We had an informal discussion about this about 60 days ago.  I just don't want all the foreplay.  I need to know what is going on because the longer I am at my current job, the harder it is going to be for me to leave out of the blue...  Heh!

[goalphish2002]

They haven't said no yet, riiiiight? I'd exercise a little patience. You know they want you. Perhaps they're doing a little behind the scenes negotiating on your behalf.

Don't be afraid to compromise in other ways. An extra week or two of vacation, rolling your start date back to your original date of hire, faster vesting, etc. Are all valuable perks if the salary dollars don't quite hit the number you have in mind. While you're at it, see if you can give yourself a little time off between jobs.

Wait! You got your Master's during all of this? That should easily cover the pay bump and the job changes.

BTW - I used to work with a snake charmer who was fired for running an elaborate expense report scheme. Besides being a cheat, he was a good salesman, so about five or six years later, some corporate dumbass with no short-term memory hired him back. The salesman had totally job jumped in the interim. He used to give presentations saying, "I've been with this company since XXXX." He totally glossed over the missing years and just let people assume his employment had been continuous.

Yeah- I will try to negotiate other things if the numbers are not exactly right...  I just want to move forward.  I am set to graduate in December so not quite finished.

[goalphish2002]

My old boss turned in my salary requirements.  The CEO got butthurt and said now he wants to interview more people to determine the market value.  I told my former boss I wasn't happy with this.  The market value can be determined using statistics online.  The CEO hopes to find someone cheaper.  My former boss told him he won't be able to, and even if he could- they wouldn't have the experience I have directly with the company.  So this will drag on. 

I actually took this personal.  I will not contact them again.

[goalphish2002]

There is no need to take it personally.  You already knew when you left the first time that this company had issues with compensating people according to their market value -- that is why you left for better pay elsewhere.  Unfortunately the CEO's attitude is all too common.  They would rather take some goober off the street who nobody knows squat about, and pay them 10% less than you are asking, than go with you as a known entity.  Penny wise pound foolish, but it happens all the time.

If you do go back and get your desired salary or something close to it, be prepared for minimal/no raises for the duration.

Yeah, this hit me like a ton of bricks- its like I forgot that I went through this before with them...  I have a lot of good memories about the place.  I have never had a better work environment and felt supported like I was when I was there- by coworkers and direct managers.  However, I have never been more insulted or paid less when it came to my value by upper management. 

If, and its a big IF now, I go back- I will always be looking at this battle for compensation.  The other perks will be good, and I will learn a lot.  But I won't be loyal to them long term.  I'll work my ass off to get the experience they are offering for 2-3 years and go to another company in Atlanta.  Just like before...

[goalphish2002]

I recently left a company and then came back 1.5 years later.  No, I do not plan on claiming that I stayed at the original company the whole time and don't think you should do that either.  But I would let you know that you should think through where you want to be in 5 years and make your choice based on that.  Don't worry too much about your salary / perks, I've come to realize that it's much more important that you like what you are doing and the people you work with, as long as the salary is competitive and there is growth potential.

I too worry that I will have been labeled a job hopper by doing this, but I'm in consulting so I don't think it's as big a deal as we live contract to contract.  It's not as bad if you go back to a previous company but it's still kind of bad as your resume looks chaotic, and nobody wants to hire someone that looks like he will be drama.  I'd recommend you think through the average amount of years that people stay within a particular company in your industry and look to meet or exceed that amount of tenure in your current job.  That will heal your resume - people won't care if you job hopped 5 years ago if you then found a good company and stayed there for 5 years.  I'm not saying you should stay 5 years if you hate your job and your coworkers, but I'd be more hesitant to leave again in your position.

It seems like no one in Atlanta stays in an accounting role long.  People are always moving to other companies.  Recruiters are constantly positioning people to do this now.  I don't know if job hopping will matter or not in 10 years now that it is becoming more socially acceptable.  My issue is I'm not looking.  Obviously, these companies don't care about tenure as much as my skills because they keep hawking me down.  I suppose they think they can cage me...  But I'm a free bird.  Heh!!!

The best position and learning experience is with my former employer.  It is also the worst in terms of upper management. 

[MrMoogle]

I recently left a company and then came back 1.5 years later.  No, I do not plan on claiming that I stayed at the original company the whole time and don't think you should do that either.  But I would let you know that you should think through where you want to be in 5 years and make your choice based on that.  Don't worry too much about your salary / perks, I've come to realize that it's much more important that you like what you are doing and the people you work with, as long as the salary is competitive and there is growth potential.

I too worry that I will have been labeled a job hopper by doing this, but I'm in consulting so I don't think it's as big a deal as we live contract to contract.  It's not as bad if you go back to a previous company but it's still kind of bad as your resume looks chaotic, and nobody wants to hire someone that looks like he will be drama.  I'd recommend you think through the average amount of years that people stay within a particular company in your industry and look to meet or exceed that amount of tenure in your current job.  That will heal your resume - people won't care if you job hopped 5 years ago if you then found a good company and stayed there for 5 years.  I'm not saying you should stay 5 years if you hate your job and your coworkers, but I'd be more hesitant to leave again in your position.

It seems like no one in Atlanta stays in an accounting role long.  People are always moving to other companies.  Recruiters are constantly positioning people to do this now.  I don't know if job hopping will matter or not in 10 years now that it is becoming more socially acceptable.  My issue is I'm not looking.  Obviously, these companies don't care about tenure as much as my skills because they keep hawking me down.  I suppose they think they can cage me...  But I'm a free bird.  Heh!!!

The best position and learning experience is with my former employer.  It is also the worst in terms of upper management. 

I learned a lot from my first company.  I wouldn't go back though, they taught me all they could.  Time to learn from smarter people :)

[Calvawt]

I have hired former employees back and I don't think the pay difference form when you left is something you need to address directly.  All you need to do is let them know what you are expecting now.  If they don't like it, stay where you are currently.

Also, job hopping is something I definitely look at when evaluating accounting/finance resumes.  Be sure this is a 3-5 year move at minimum, otherwise you might miss out on some of the best opportunities as companies don't want to invest in managers/directors that might not stay long term.

good luck!

[RedmondStash]

As someone who spent about 15 years as a career job-hopper, I don't see it as a negative. I have huge time-gaps in my resume, which I also don't see as a negative.

When they come up, I have reasons: I do a lot freelancing; I work as a hired gun a lot, to solve a specific problem and then ride off into the sunset. I took time off to learn new skills, to write a novel, to make a video game. Neither job-hopping nor gaps in my resume have ever stopped me from getting a job I wanted.

But often, it doesn't even come up. If I have the skills they're looking for, and they feel good about me in the interview (I interview well), it's all moot. And when I get the gig, I do a great job and then leave on good terms.

I'm honestly not sure why job-hopping is such a scary thing in these forums. Maybe it's because I'm in IT, where job-hopping and freelancing are pretty normal. I've heard people look at you funny if you stay in a job more than 2 years. *shrug*

If OP just says, "I worked for Company A, left for Company B, and then Company A wanted me back and made me a really generous offer, so I took it," I'd take that as a vote of confidence from Company A that this person is a good egg and a coveted employee. You can spin the story (without dishonesty) to make yourself look good.

[goalphish2002]

I am returning.  We came to terms.

[supomglol]

I am returning.  We came to terms.

That's great.  This is the only way to get an increased salary in my field (aerospace).  If you continue working for Company A, they will never give you more than the company-wide COL increase every year.  If you actually want to move up or get more, you'll need to get hired by a local competitor and then come back in 6-9 months and you'll be making 10-15% more, rinse and repeat annually for 10 years for best results (apparently). 

[goalphish2002]

I am returning.  We came to terms.

That's great.  This is the only way to get an increased salary in my field (aerospace).  If you continue working for Company A, they will never give you more than the company-wide COL increase every year.  If you actually want to move up or get more, you'll need to get hired by a local competitor and then come back in 6-9 months and you'll be making 10-15% more, rinse and repeat annually for 10 years for best results (apparently).

Exactly.

[erutio]

Did they give you everything you asked for to come back?

[goalphish2002]

Did they give you everything you asked for to come back?

Not everything, but I went above and beyond in my demands because we were negotiating.  I am happy with it.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

Congrats!

[RedmondStash]

Did they give you everything you asked for to come back?

Not everything, but I went above and beyond in my demands because we were negotiating.  I am happy with it.

Great news. Congratulations!

[ender]

Glad it worked out!