Author Topic: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..  (Read 9066 times)

Transcensionist

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Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« on: October 24, 2014, 07:30:53 AM »
I live in a town home with my wife & daughter and kiddo #2 is on the way. We bought for 192k in 2007 and are up for sale for 175k now.

We just put an offer on a $300k single family home yesterday. The mortgage and PMI (we don't have the savings available to 20% down on this house) are going to be about 25% of our take home pay.

We make good money (~$150k annually.)

We love the house but having just started reading MMM yesterday I feel like I'm lining myself up to be in continual risk of losing a job and having everything crash.

Maybe we'll be fine if we practice frugality even if 25% of our take home is aligned with this mortgage?

The thing is I don't really see that happening. I'm ready to live the MMM lifestyle but I don't see my spouse getting there. She'd like an suv and hiring a decorator to have the best looking house.

Not sure what I'm getting at here but needed to share somewhere.

nereo

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 07:46:17 AM »
Welcome samg

your feelings aren't unusual for someone who's just discovered MMM.
Poke around here, ask lots of questions and read up on other threads.  There are plenty of threads about how to get your spouse on board with living this kind of lifestyle. 

To answer your only specific quesiton, no, spending 25% of your income on your home isn't "bad", but I'd say you are looking at it all wrong.  Instead of taking the traditional, 'financial advisor' view and asking "what % of my income can I spend on my new home" you should instead ask "what do I really need for my home".
Finding a place that is close to work and is walkable/bikeable to most of your errands is a big focus here, because car use is one of the biggest destroyers of wealth in our society.  Ironically, sometimes that means paying more to rent/own than you otherwise would to live out in the 'burbs with a 45 minute one-way commute.
See: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/

hope to see you around here more
N

Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 07:59:24 AM »
Thank you for the thoughtful reply nereo! You've brightened my spirits a bit and I appreciate that.

The new house puts my wife's commute at 14 miles (from 4.. we live in the same town as her work currently.) And mine from 16 miles to 28 miles. But I'm currently working from home 80% or more of the time (driving into the office 1-2 times every two weeks.)

We have two 2006 sedans that are both paid off and only 80-100k miles on each. (It's funny I consider this an accomplishment to not owe on a vehicle. Having read of mustachios who just buy an older vehicle outright and never pay for a loan.)

It does seem silly to be moving further from our workplaces. But on the other hand the new location does offer itself much more to walking and biking around town.

A MMM pipedream I'm having is to save aggressively over the next 10 years then semi retire, having a job biking around town (carpentry, computer repair, or something else.)

gt7152b

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 08:04:16 AM »
I thought I wanted that upgraded house as well. Sold my house that I was on track to pay off in 7 years to upgrade to something bigger and fancier. It had everything we thought we wanted but now after 3 years I wish we had stayed put. The extra space didn't make us happier, we just collected more junk. The nicer features are just something that we have to take extra care with and that's not fun with two small kids around. Now it wasn't all bad because the move coincided with a job change that has turned out to be pretty lucrative. I just wish we had made a lateral house move instead so that I'd be 4 years from paying it off (actually would be less now that we have cut spending so much). Our current plan is to downsize in the next year because FIREing in this house would be pretty difficult. I really hate to pay the realtor fees to get out of this house but they are basically sunk cost at this point. Staying in this house would extend my FIRE date by at least 1 year, maybe more, and we've already decided we don't want to stay in this area permanently.

Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 08:20:00 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experience GT.

I am struggling a little with whether we need this house or not.

We have a 2 bedroom place right now. Kids could share a room but would be nice for each to have their own?

We have a 10x16 slab of grass for our two dogs and our daughter plays on asphalt. There are parks and grassy areas in our community if we walk down the block. It also would be nice to have a place we could customize as our own, a yard for our children and dogs, a garden, have some additional privacy, etc.

The house we're looking at was built in the late 1800s (!) It's beautiful and has great character but going from a town home to an old charmer like this is a bit scary. It does have recent updates and we'll be getting an inspection to make sure it's not coming with blatant issues.

I am not handy with repairs and don't own any tools. But my father and uncle each run small construction businesses and I do have somewhat of an aspiration to eventually learn.

We still have our town home up for sale and having to carry both mortgages plus association dues for any amount of time would eat our savings quickly. The plan is to rent out our current home if it doesn't sell, but I feel we'd be "all in" on the renter and even if we pick someone with good credit/background, this could all fall apart if something happens and they stop paying on time.






Cromacster

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 08:24:01 AM »
We still have our town home up for sale and having to carry both mortgages plus association dues for any amount of time would eat our savings quickly
This is a huge red flag.

We just put an offer on a $300k single family home yesterday. The mortgage and PMI (we don't have the savings available to 20% down on this house)
So it this.

There are parks and grassy areas in our community if walk down the block.

Sounds nice.  I have about 1/4 acre and I still walk down the block to a field to play with my dog.

If you were asking me (which you sort of are I guess) I would not do it.  14 mile and 28 mile commute....eek

I purchased my current house because it was close to my work and my wife's work.  We both had about a 4 mile commute.  She still does, but due to a job change my commute is about 18 miles each way.  My drive to work takes me a bout 20 min in minimal traffic and about 40-60 in heavier traffic.  The heavy traffic is usually on my way home.  There is nothing more that I hate in a day than my drive home from work.  It is a soul sucking waste of time.  I love my current job and the one reason I will end up leaving it earlier than I would like is solely because of the commute.  It also kills me when I consider the true cost of my commute, ultimately it chops about 9k right off the top of my income.  Wonderful!

nereo

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 08:30:24 AM »
Moving further away from your jobs isn't ideal, but it sounds like you've already pulled the trigger, and that there are the benefits of biking/walking in your new place which didn't exist before. 

Your "MMM pipedream" sounds like fun - and I don't see why it can't become a reality.  You have a very good income and a reasonable mortgage.  Baring some massive financial skeletons in your closet or catastrophic setbacks there's no reason you shouldn't be able to be FI by the time "kiddo #2" is ready to start high school. The only 'tricks' will be to stop trying to emulate the Jones and become dedicated savers.  A bit hard at first but ultimately it becomes rewarding in itself.

To tell you my own story, i've always been the frugal type, and I decided when I got my first job that I wanted to be able to retire before I was 59 - I considered that "early retirement" back then.  It wasn't until recently that I stumbled upon this blog after hearing an NPR interview and I began to realize that with some very modest changes I could become FI ("Financially Independent") in my mid 40s (I am 32 now), even without a large income.  Part of this drastic reduction was realizing I didn't need nearly the nestegg that the mainstream financial media had suggested I need, and part of it was just steadily re-evaluating what I was spending my $ on.  I found there were lots of things I purchased which gave me a few minutes of pleasure and then were gone, never to be thought about again. 
Now I think my spending is a lot more streamlined, and what's interesting is that I'm actually happier for it.  One big area I made improvements in was my grocery/restaurant spending, going from ~$800/month for my SO and I now to around $300/month.  But we are actually eating a lot better now than before.  Not only are our home-cooked meals more nutritious, most now most things we cook taste better than what we could get at mid-level restaurants.

good luck with "kiddo #2" - when will he/she be arriving?

Cromacster

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 08:35:19 AM »
Sorry!  Forgot to add: 

Welcome to the forums!  This is a great place with lots of great information.  Hopefully you stick around and learn lots.

PloddingInsight

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 08:35:52 AM »
We have a 2 bedroom place right now. Kids could share a room but would be nice for each to have their own?

We recently had three kids sharing a room - 8, 6, & 3.  They loved it.  Teenagers might think differently, but there is no need for you to make this move NOW.  My advice is to stay put and enjoy the new baby.

dude

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 08:38:09 AM »
An 1800's house?  Yeah, I'd be concerned about that, too.

On the bright side, interest rates are super low right now, and if you are young-ish, you will likely have a rising income, making your mortgatge less and less as a percentage of your income year after year.

rujancified

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 08:41:12 AM »
What's the likelihood of getting the house? It's not like you're under contract, so you may just be front-loading some worry there. If this specific house does work out: Can you carpool/take public transport? How steady is the WFH situation (ie could the employer pull you back into the office?) What else can you do to make living in the more expensive house more affordable (decorate your own damn self, do your own yardwork, don't hire a maid, etc etc).

Like with anything, people around the forums can be pretty dogmatic about the MMM lifestyle. People can help out with cutting expenses and punching faces when needed, but sometimes the correct mathematical decision isn't the right path for you/your family. Take on as much information as you can and sort through that to see what will work for you.

As an example:

My husband and I bought a house a year ago. We spend under the recommended income percentage on our house (around 13% or so gross job income, lower if you count other sources of income) but everything else about the house would set off ALARM BELLS on this forum: It is big (especially since we don't have kids yet), we are looking at paying someone to fix up parts of it, we pay PMI (7 months left). People around here (MMM forum) would tell me to downsize and that a house 1/2 the size is fine for children. While that's totally true (I grew up in an 1870s house, I know small houses!), I honestly would rather spend the money on space than retire a year or two earlier.

Do what's right for your family. Save money, watch your spending, chip away at the resistance from your wife, and you'll find yourself in a good position relatively soon.


GardenFun

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 08:43:58 AM »
Welcome!  You found a great site for handling your current life changes. 

In regards to the new house, was the offer accepted?  Did you give any earnest money?  If no to both, you can back out of the deal.  This will give you time to read the articles, talk with your wife, and decide how to take control of your lives.   

My two sons share a bedroom and love it.  Originally they were in two separate rooms but the younger one kept sneaking into the other one's room (or in our room).  Putting them in one room alleviated the issue. 

Also, if you really want a fast immersion into MMM, post your budget.  If you make $150K a year, but don't have $60K for a traditional down payment, that signals other spending areas that could be improved. 

Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 09:24:18 AM »
Thanks everyone for your replies!

Here is my current budget if anyone would like to review/critique..

Take home pay$8624
Mortgage$1,245
Day Care Center$1,170
Groceries & Target$850
Personal Spending$400
Dining Out$350
Association Dues$234
Gas$175
Energy Bill$150
Roth IRA$150
Student Loans$135
Car & Home Insurance$77
Gifts$75
Water and Sewer$72
Dog Vet Plans$66
Comcast (Internet Only)$55
AT&T (2 mobiles, $94-$40 work reimbursement)$54
Travel (estimate)$50
2nd Car Insurance$55
His Term Life Insurance$38
Her Term Life Insurance$22
Netflix$9
Hulu$8
TOTAL INCOME$8624
TOTAL EXPENSE$5440
NET$3184
Monthly Savings$2300
"Loss"$884

A few explanations..

Personal Spend - We use a combined joint account except give ourselves each $100 every two weeks for personal spending: going out to lunch, clothing, hobbies, etc.

The monthly savings at this point is just padding our emergency fund account, and will be used toward the down payment on above-mentioned house. After this next home buying step we plan to invest add'l funds (assuming everything works out with renting out our home.)

"Loss" at the end is the money that isn't being moved to savings or spent on the above categories but still disappears. It's excess restaurant spend, alcohol purchases, bailing out our personal spending if we put too much on our personal credit cards and need more to work with, vehicle maintenance (tires, brakes, oil, etc.) And other misc. stuff that we purchase but don't track on this list. Maybe we're just not tracking well enough? I use mint but still have trouble accounting for spending at the end of the month.

Cheddar Stacker

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2014, 09:45:24 AM »
I'm fully immersed in the MMM lifestyle. My wife is not. It would be great if we were on the same page, but it's a slow process for us. You can't control the desires of your family, but you can control your own so start there. Also, start with the very, very big stuff that automatically leads to less spending.

The single biggest thing you can do to keep your expenses low is stay in your current home, or buy a less expensive one. Adding $125K in house value, and mortgage, is a big loss. Cancel your offer, and tell your real estate agent you are no longer selling. At the very least wait until next summer when the baby has already arrived, and find a place that's closer to work and doesn't double your mortgage.

Welcome to the forum.

Bytowner

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2014, 09:52:35 AM »
Low hanging fruit but...

Quote
Groceries & Target  $850

You should be able to chop that in half, especially if you're spending $350 a month on restaurants (which you should cut back significantly on).

Quote
Personal Spending  $400

$100 every two weeks might seem reasonable on your salary, but is this really spending that needs to happen?
 

4alpacas

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2014, 10:11:09 AM »
I'm fully immersed in the MMM lifestyle. My wife is not. It would be great if we were on the same page, but it's a slow process for us. You can't control the desires of your family, but you can control your own so start there. Also, start with the very, very big stuff that automatically leads to less spending.

The single biggest thing you can do to keep your expenses low is stay in your current home, or buy a less expensive one. Adding $125K in house value, and mortgage, is a big loss. Cancel your offer, and tell your real estate agent you are no longer selling. At the very least wait until next summer when the baby has already arrived, and find a place that's closer to work and doesn't double your mortgage.

Welcome to the forum.

+1 

Even though the interest rates are low, you won't be able to take advantage of them if you're paying PMI.  I would wait.  Figure out where the $800/month loss goes every month.  Tighten your belt, save for a 20% down payment and a cash cushion, and then buy a new house. 

Good luck!

Seņora Savings

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2014, 11:07:40 AM »
Thanks everyone for your replies!

Here is my current budget if anyone would like to review/critique..

Take home pay$8624
Mortgage$1,245
    times 3/2 for bigger home = $1867.50
 
Day Care Center$1,170
    times 2 for second kid = $2340
 
Groceries & Target$850
Personal Spending$400
Dining Out$350
Association Dues$234
Gas$175
Energy Bill$150
Roth IRA$150
Student Loans$135
Car & Home Insurance$77
Gifts$75
Water and Sewer$72
Dog Vet Plans$66
Comcast (Internet Only)$55
AT&T (2 mobiles, $94-$40 work reimbursement)$54
Travel (estimate)$50
2nd Car Insurance$55
His Term Life Insurance$38
Her Term Life Insurance$22
Netflix$9
Hulu$8
TOTAL INCOME$8624
TOTAL EXPENSE$5440
NET$3184
Monthly Savings$2300
   minus $1792.50 = 507.50
 
"Loss"$884


Plus anything you spend on diapers and baby cloths and food for baby #2.

Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2014, 11:14:57 AM »
Our projected budget adds:

New House: $2350 (mortgage, heat, water, garbage, city services)

Changes day care to $1386 for 2 kids ($160 / week for each in an in home vs our current $270 / week in a center.)

We estimated gas would go up to $250 / month due to the larger commute and padded grocery spending up to $1k.

It leaves us at a $339 surplus vs our current $884 surplus (our loss category.) So potentially we're at -$550 assuming this miscellaneous spend stays the same.

But that's while paying both mortgages. We're anticipating renting our current place at $1400 per month, possibly paying $80 / month to a property management company. So we'd be ahead by about $1k.

But I'd really like to be living at 25% of what we're making instead of 90%.

PloddingInsight

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2014, 11:32:41 AM »
Personal Spending$400
Dining Out$350
...
 
"Loss"$884
...

"Loss" at the end is the money that isn't being moved to savings or spent on the above categories but still disappears. It's excess restaurant spend, alcohol purchases, bailing out our personal spending if we put too much on our personal credit cards and need more to work with, vehicle maintenance (tires, brakes, oil, etc.) And other misc. stuff that we purchase but don't track on this list. Maybe we're just not tracking well enough? I use mint but still have trouble accounting for spending at the end of the month.

I would view "dining out" as a form of "personal spending".  Given that the "loss" is also apparently personal spending, you get:

400+350+884 = $1634 per month, of $19,608 per year!!

Granted some of that is vehicle maintenance, but not most of it!   Geeze Louise.  That's a lot of miscellaneous spending!


Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2014, 11:38:27 AM »
Good point.

Personal spending to us means money we spend as individuals (clothes, going out to eat at lunch or to dinner w/ friends but w/o spouse.) If we go out to dinner together then we use our joint money.

The excess is getting eaten up by all sorts of things. Wife got a new pair of glasses last month - $100. Went shopping for kid clothes - $100. Bought a new TV over the last year - $300. Bought a surround sound system last year - $800. Went to an overnight at a B&B - $300. Spent too much on our personal accounts and needed a bail out - $800 (we tend to use personal credit cards to float add'l money.) Ordering paper towels and espresso off amazon - $50 (grocery expense that doesn't get attributed to our normal shopping places.)

I'm not trying to justify anything here. I think putting it in writing helps me see how crazy we've been and where we can improve.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 11:40:42 AM by samg »

nereo

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2014, 11:49:23 AM »

I'm not trying to justify anything here. I think putting it in writing helps me see how crazy we've been and where we can improve.
exactly.  And kudos to you for going through this - knowing where your money is going (and where it needs to be cut) is probably the most important thing for you to be doing right now.

I'd recommend you keep reading this blog, and then put together a full case study with specific questions and some concrete goals.   then people will give you lots of advice (and some face-punches) to help oyu get there.  Obviously on this blog people are going to point out your grocery bill and eating out, as well as the vague "loss" and "personal spending" categories. 

There is also lots of help here in the landlord section for people who are first-time landlords.

finally, you mentioned you are padding your emergency savings account - I hope you are also contributing to tax-advantaged accounts as well (IRAs, 401(k)/403(b)/HSA?)  If not that should enter into your planning over the next few months.  It's very likely with your income that every $1,000 you put into these accounts you will save $250-280 in income taxes.

Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2014, 11:58:07 AM »
We are currently only contributing to 401ks. I'm set at 6% + 6% employer match. I added some extra from a bonus and am around 10% + employer contribution.

nereo

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2014, 12:07:03 PM »
We are currently only contributing to 401ks. I'm set at 6% + 6% employer match. I added some extra from a bonus and am around 10% + employer contribution.
That's a good start.  But until you contribute to (and max out) to IRAs, you are tossing extra money to the fed every April 15th.  As you scale down some of you expenses, scale up your contributions to tax-advantaged accounts.  You'll see your tax bill go down and your savings go way, way up.  Then in several years your questions will shift from "how do I get to financial independence" to "what do I want to do since I'm well on my way?" - which leads back to your dream of biking around doing carpentry jobs (i think that was it, right?)

If it helps, just start thinking of your retirement accounts as "must-fund," and have everything automated.  For the first couple of months it might be painful as your will have a bit less disposable income in your pocket, but very quickly you will adjust and it won't seem like a hardship at all.

AccidentalMiser

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2014, 12:09:50 PM »
I live in a town home with my wife & daughter and kiddo #2 is on the way. We bought for 192k in 2007 and are up for sale for 175k now.

We just put an offer on a $300k single family home yesterday. The mortgage and PMI (we don't have the savings available to 20% down on this house) are going to be about 25% of our take home pay.

We make good money (~$150k annually.)

We love the house but having just started reading MMM yesterday I feel like I'm lining myself up to be in continual risk of losing a job and having everything crash.

Maybe we'll be fine if we practice frugality even if 25% of our take home is aligned with this mortgage?

The thing is I don't really see that happening. I'm ready to live the MMM lifestyle but I don't see my spouse getting there. She'd like an suv and hiring a decorator to have the best looking house.

Not sure what I'm getting at here but needed to share somewhere.

You are jumping off the deep end.  Taking a huge hit on a house and buying another before the first one is sold is crazy.  Buying a 300k house when you have a perfectly good 175k house is crazy.  Not talking to your spendthrift wife and coming here for sympathy is crazy.

You can't improve until she gets on the bandwagon. 

I didn't read all the posts, just your initial one but I would put the brakes on the house deal NOW and get control of your situation before you get yourself in deeper than you already are.

Sorry for the harshness but your hair is on fire.

Setters-r-Better

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2014, 05:28:23 PM »
This new house looks like a pretty bad idea.  How much do you owe on first home?  How much is in the emergency savings?  How much would be left after purchase of new home?

1967mama

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2014, 05:35:55 PM »
About sharing bedrooms:

My 19 year old didn't have his own bedroom until he was 17. Shared with his 15 year old brother. They both survived.

Currently sharing a bedroom are 14 and 11 year old boys, and in another room, 9 and 7 year old boys. When they don't know any
different, they do just fine. In days gone by, was there ever an expectation that kids would have their OWN bedroom?? ;-)

Welcome to the forums, and might I suggest moving slowly with your wife? There has been a lot of discussion on the forums these last few months where one spouse is embracing Mustachianism and the other totally isn't. Baby steps...

Transcensionist

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2014, 05:43:41 PM »
We owe about 125k on first home. Have 30k in savings. Half would go to a down payment, half kept for emergencies.

prof61820

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2014, 05:58:02 PM »
We owe about 125k on first home. Have 30k in savings. Half would go to a down payment, half kept for emergencies.

You're not approaching this move from a position of strength (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/11/11/get-rich-with-the-position-of-strength/).  If you do, you will sleep better at night.  Sell your first home first.  Keep your commute as short as possible.  Are schools a factor in your move decision?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 06:57:01 PM by prof61820 »

GardenFun

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Re: Feeling like I'm jumping off the deep end..
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2014, 10:15:15 AM »
How much is left on your student loans, and what is the interest rate?  That could be an easy $135/mo to free up in a few months. 

Do you put anything aside for replacing vehicles, is that handled as a payment, or would you pull that money out of emergency savings?

If you have read more articles, you have quickly realized a good portion of spending falls in three categories:  mortgage, transportation, eating.  Research these articles that specifically focus on those areas:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/11/the-elephant-in-the-room-housing/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/29/killing-your-1000-grocery-bill/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/


 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!