Author Topic: Responding to peers going through economic shock  (Read 2329 times)

LibrarianFuzz

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 82
Responding to peers going through economic shock
« on: June 18, 2020, 10:01:33 AM »
If you can't tell from my username, I work in the library field. 99% of libraries are currently closed to the public, or they are offering very limited curbside services. Virtually no libraries are hiring. Librarians, library technical assistants, and shelvers are being laid off in droves. I have received a paycut/reduction in hours but I am still working close to full-time, doing a variety of special projects.

Lately I've been contacted through other librarians in my peer networks. They have been laid off and are actively looking for any library that is hiring. I'm hearing a lot of sob stories - peers being forced to move out of their apartments and into shady motels, or getting far behind in bills, at risk for losing their homes, going through various states of economic shock.

My response has been some variation of a sympathetic: "I'm so sorry, I'll keep an eye out. Have you tried the prison libraries? They're always hiring." (This is true. No one wants to work in a state or federal prison library. It's considered bottom-of-the-barrel in the library field, even though they offer a generous additional stipend for working in a prison, called "safety pay" or "hazard pay.")

What I really want to say is: Aren't you receiving unemployment benefits? Don't you have any kind of economic buffer? Don't you have a savings account? You're telling me that you got laid off three months ago and you're already living in a pay-by-the-week motel?? I thought that landlords weren't allowed to evict during the COVID-19 crisis? It's been in the news.

I'm honestly sort of baffled. I've worked in the field for 20+ years, as have many of these other librarians. I know what the salary range is. I mean, I'm getting the same salary. It's pretty much the same across the board, whether you're in a public library, school, or special library. Corporate libraries, law libraries, and academic libraries pay a little more.

Even with the paycut, I'm not scared. I live in neighborhood that isn't very desirable but that has given me an affordable mortgage payment. I have a side hustle. I almost never eat out, I get my entertainment for free through the library (books and DVDs), and I carefully control all costs that are within my scope of control. With unemployment payments and my savings/investments, I could probably survive 4-5 years of unemployment if necessary. Can some of my peers really not survive more than 3 months? This has been shocking to me. These are smart, educated people. Librarians have Master's degrees and work in professional research.

I'm trying not to be judgmental right now and maintain appropriately sympathetic responses. But I'm having a hard time relating and not immediately responding with a bunch of inappropriate questions that would probably not be well received.

Anyone else having the same experience?     

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4583
  • Age: 51
  • Location: SoCal
    • Our Sea Story
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 10:34:29 AM »
I know that unemployment doesn't cover salary, but I am surprised that with the $600 boost, folks would be moving out of their apartments. Perhaps we are seeing the spend it all approach to personal finance?

Since they are contacting you about jobs, maybe you could add "Would you like me to help you brainstorm ideas for your current situation?" I think middle class Americans tend to hesitate to reach out, but this question would determine whether or not you give any advice or ask any awkward questions.

Even though I have tutored in prisons before, I would be concerned about the working conditions involved with any confined population currently. Not sure I have ever lumped together nursing homes and prisons before, but I know some nursing home residents have...

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3852
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:44:33 AM »
I feel that way about a lot of people a lot of the time, but of course, it’s too late now.

I read a piece lately that said something like “middle class in America is a lifestyle, and people spend more than they have got to hang on to that.” That struck me as containing a lot of truth. Yes, people should spend less and save more, but our economy is built around people spending more. When the spending slows down, things come unglued pretty fast.

Zikoris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4551
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • Vancouverstachian
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 10:45:41 AM »
One thing that seems weird to me is when people are unwilling to just temporarily do some other type of work, even when the alternative is losing their home, all their savings, etc. Like, I don't know, I'm a receptionist, but I've worked in factories before, and would have no qualms applying at the local toilet paper factory or tofu factory or whatever if I couldn't find my normal type of work. Yes, yes, if you're an 80 year old librarian who walks with a cane maybe that won't work too well, but I feel like a lot of people could just go do something else for awhile.

beltim

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 10:49:33 AM »
What I really want to say is: Aren't you receiving unemployment benefits? Don't you have any kind of economic buffer? Don't you have a savings account? You're telling me that you got laid off three months ago and you're already living in a pay-by-the-week motel?? I thought that landlords weren't allowed to evict during the COVID-19 crisis? It's been in the news.

Lots of people eligible for unemployment haven't received any benefits yet:
in Kentucky
about half a month ago
in Florida
in New York
if you're a freelancer

Unfortunately, many of the places where evictions stopped have resumed them or are about to:
https://www.newswest9.com/article/news/local/evictions-to-resume-in-texas/513-d438fc6a-aea4-49ef-bad9-11aa523ae414
https://www.katc.com/news/evictions-resume-following-3-month-freeze
https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2020/06/cleveland-housing-court-to-resume-eviction-hearings-for-first-time-since-coronavirus-led-to-recession.html

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10938
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2020, 10:56:35 AM »
One thing that seems weird to me is when people are unwilling to just temporarily do some other type of work, even when the alternative is losing their home, all their savings, etc. Like, I don't know, I'm a receptionist, but I've worked in factories before, and would have no qualms applying at the local toilet paper factory or tofu factory or whatever if I couldn't find my normal type of work. Yes, yes, if you're an 80 year old librarian who walks with a cane maybe that won't work too well, but I feel like a lot of people could just go do something else for awhile.
Well, maybe not right now with unemployment really high.

My friend owns her own swim school.  She immediately started working for Instacart, which is booming right now.  (As are produce delivery places around here.) 

My other friend is an aesthetician with her own business.  She was supposed to finally be reopening on Friday, but now the county is dialing back due to increased COVID cases. 

use2betrix

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2501
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 11:00:39 AM »
I’m well aware that my peers do not have the same financial mindset as my own.

There’s very little I’m usually surprised about regarding the financial positions of others.

Captain Cactus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
  • Location: The Land of Steady Habits
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2020, 11:01:51 AM »
If people are reaching out to you for help...it's not likely a good time to openly judge or lecture.  Once they're back on their feet and you're sitting around having a cup of coffee with them it could be an opportunity to share some knowledge...but then again they may not be open to taking the red pill if life is good again.  The saying about when the student is ready the teacher will appear comes to mind. 

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10938
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 11:12:01 AM »
On the flip side, I have a friend who is a librarian, still working half time.  She's also got a master's in Public health, so she's working half time on loan to the Public health department.  She's busier than ever.

kanga1622

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 421
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 11:18:36 AM »
I don't see any reason why you can't be sympathetic, let them know you will keep an eye/ear out for openings, and provide some additional info.

Maybe something like: I know so many libraries have reduced their staff right now and I will certainly let you know if I hear of any open positions. Many of my former coworkers have gotten temporary jobs at the grocery store/Walmart/prison library until the public libraries are open fully again. Unemployment helped but didn't cover their salary for the long term.

Just phrase it in a way that is not judgmental about their lack of planning, may include a little reminder that unemployment is available if they haven't yet filed, and provide a generic "they" situation that could stimulate thinking about taking on a position outside the library for the time being.

Captain Cactus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
  • Location: The Land of Steady Habits
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 11:31:28 AM »
I don't see any reason why you can't be sympathetic, let them know you will keep an eye/ear out for openings, and provide some additional info.

Maybe something like: I know so many libraries have reduced their staff right now and I will certainly let you know if I hear of any open positions. Many of my former coworkers have gotten temporary jobs at the grocery store/Walmart/prison library until the public libraries are open fully again. Unemployment helped but didn't cover their salary for the long term.

Just phrase it in a way that is not judgmental about their lack of planning, may include a little reminder that unemployment is available if they haven't yet filed, and provide a generic "they" situation that could stimulate thinking about taking on a position outside the library for the time being.

That's a nice, kind way of providing support.  Thumbs-up emoji ;)

Photograph 51

  • Guest
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 12:02:55 PM »
Thank you for being a librarian.  Librarians are great.

Jack0Life

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 12:20:02 PM »
I have ZERO empathy for my co-workers if they are not making ends meet.
We have the capability to make upward of $100k so if you are struggling right now only after 3 months, you are doing something very wrong.
I do have empathy for people that didn't have the capability to make as much money as my profession.
Back when I just got out of school and had nothing saved up. If this pandemic happened then, I would have been SOL and probably have to move back with my parents.
Just think back at any point of your life and if this pandemic had happened, would you be screwed ?? If YES, you should have empathy toward others.
Maybe this will will be valuable lesson to have emergency savings. I remembered I was $20k in CC debt just finishing school and barely have money to last each week. That feeling sucked and I swore I will never go through those hardships again.

Livingthedream55

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 525
  • Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2020, 12:23:37 PM »
One thing that seems weird to me is when people are unwilling to just temporarily do some other type of work, even when the alternative is losing their home, all their savings, etc. Like, I don't know, I'm a receptionist, but I've worked in factories before, and would have no qualms applying at the local toilet paper factory or tofu factory or whatever if I couldn't find my normal type of work. Yes, yes, if you're an 80 year old librarian who walks with a cane maybe that won't work too well, but I feel like a lot of people could just go do something else for awhile.

Years ago, I worked in a government agency that helped families facing foreclosure on ther homes. Over the course of two years I worked with hundreds of such families.

I was dumbstruck by the lack of creative problem-solving even when it meant eventually becoming homeless. I saw the monthly income and outgo numbers. I saw many, many households where no one tried to: rent out a room (or rent out the whole house and double up with family), deliver pizza, get adult children living for free in the home to go out and get jobs, reduce spending on non-essential line items (clothing, cable, the food budget was obscene, some bought new furniture, a few took vacations!), etc. Most reached a point where they stopped paying their mortgage and property taxes (in some cases it took 18 months to two years to finally lose their house) and on the day they walked out of the door, they had NOTHING. They spent every dollar that came in - they even spent what should have been the mortage payment.

Our agency had funds to help with first and last and security deposit to get them housed in an apartment. Then the demands and expectations for where and how large an apartment were unrealistic. There was no concept of doing the math!!

Anyway, in general, many people do not want to reduce their comforts, even in the face of major life emergencies.

JestJes

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 12:28:30 PM »
What I really want to say is: Aren't you receiving unemployment benefits? Don't you have any kind of economic buffer? Don't you have a savings account? You're telling me that you got laid off three months ago and you're already living in a pay-by-the-week motel?? I thought that landlords weren't allowed to evict during the COVID-19 crisis? It's been in the news.

Lots of people eligible for unemployment haven't received any benefits yet:
in Kentucky
about half a month ago
in Florida
in New York
if you're a freelancer

Unfortunately, many of the places where evictions stopped have resumed them or are about to:
https://www.newswest9.com/article/news/local/evictions-to-resume-in-texas/513-d438fc6a-aea4-49ef-bad9-11aa523ae414
https://www.katc.com/news/evictions-resume-following-3-month-freeze
https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2020/06/cleveland-housing-court-to-resume-eviction-hearings-for-first-time-since-coronavirus-led-to-recession.html

This is exactly what I came here to say. And a lot of people are trying to juggle finding work with home schooling children and other needs.

Also the truth of the matter is that we are not prepared. As a reformed spendy pants myself, it has taken a long time to dig out of the hole I made for myself. If i had lost my job two years ago I would have been totally screwed. Not that you should necessarily feel bad for me but everyone walks the path at their own pace. Maybe this will be the wake up call they need to have more of a economic cushion.

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2020, 12:31:02 PM »
I don't see any reason why you can't be sympathetic, let them know you will keep an eye/ear out for openings, and provide some additional info.

Maybe something like: I know so many libraries have reduced their staff right now and I will certainly let you know if I hear of any open positions. Many of my former coworkers have gotten temporary jobs at the grocery store/Walmart/prison library until the public libraries are open fully again. Unemployment helped but didn't cover their salary for the long term.

Just phrase it in a way that is not judgmental about their lack of planning, may include a little reminder that unemployment is available if they haven't yet filed, and provide a generic "they" situation that could stimulate thinking about taking on a position outside the library for the time being.

This. It is helpful and compassionate without being enabling, especially as some of your peers may be stuck in unemployment filing limbo (a significant problem in my state).

24andfrugal

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 92
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2020, 12:36:01 PM »
I remember reading a statistic that some shockingly high percent of Americans (maybe 44%?) didn't have $1,000 saved for an emergency.

I recognize that some people have extenuating circumstances that make having a buffer for tough times difficult. Sometimes people get into, or start out in, holes that it takes a long time to get out of. Those things happen, and they're unfortunate.

But at the end of the day, for most people, they are in the situation they're in because of years and years of decisions that are varying levels of "not the best". I am 24 and I already see the seeds of this in people I know. They are just not very good at money management and find it too difficult or uninteresting to learn, and the ones who can't find jobs in the (very specific) fields they want are unwilling to take jobs they don't like in order to make money. More broadly, people seem incredibly resistant to thinking even a few months into the future.

Hopefully people will learn the importance of having a nest egg going forward, but I don't count on it.

JestJes

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2020, 12:38:49 PM »
I have ZERO empathy for my co-workers if they are not making ends meet.
We have the capability to make upward of $100k so if you are struggling right now only after 3 months, you are doing something very wrong.
I do have empathy for people that didn't have the capability to make as much money as my profession.
Back when I just got out of school and had nothing saved up. If this pandemic happened then, I would have been SOL and probably have to move back with my parents.
Just think back at any point of your life and if this pandemic had happened, would you be screwed ?? If YES, you should have empathy toward others.
Maybe this will will be valuable lesson to have emergency savings. I remembered I was $20k in CC debt just finishing school and barely have money to last each week. That feeling sucked and I swore I will never go through those hardships again.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Not all of us are born mustachian, some of us had to learn.

K_in_the_kitchen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2020, 01:30:47 PM »
Whenever I feel tempted to judge others (which mostly means my siblings and in-laws) I try to remember that DH and I are the exception in our families, not the rule.  And as JestJes mentioned, had this happened in the past it could have been devastating for us. Not in 2008, but at any time prior to about 1998.  In 1997 we had a mortgage, a second, the remainder of a student loan, and more than 25K in credit card debt. We were living paycheck to paycheck, but we thought we were doing fine because we could always make our payments on time.

Many people, myself included, didn't grow up with examples of good financial stewardship.  Unexpected car repairs could mean the electric bill couldn't get paid on time, and we'd have to drive over and pay it after we received a shut off notice.  Paying that bill, even late, might mean my parents would have to pay the mortgage late, incurring late fees and the overnight postage fees.  It was a constant circle, and it wasn't because we were living higher than we should have been.  Clothing came from thrift stores and yard sales.  We didn't eat in restaurants or go to the movies (indeed, Covid-19 stay-at-home orders have brought me vividly back to the weekends of my youth, when we never went anywhere).  We didn't have cable TV.  We didn't buy books and such.  We didn't have a gardener or house cleaner (that's what kids were for).  We never had a new car, only used cars that would break down, because even the used cars had to come from some shady dealer who charged sky high interest.  I didn't get a class ring, and there were a couple of years we couldn't afford the yearbook.  My mother was frugal to the max.

(At one point, we spent a year living in a roach and rat infested tenement, receiving welfare, food stamps, and MediCal.)

Children who live like this don't know about saving and investing.  Indeed, when my mother taught me to balance a check book, she taught me the sums in reverse because they were always into the overdraft.  My parents never invested money, not in CDs or the stock market.  It's no wonder DH and thought being able to pay our bills on time was financial success -- for our families of origin, it would have been.  Unfortunately, most of our siblings can't even do that much.

In the current situation, I offer sympathy (along the lines of "that sounds tough" and "I'm sorry you have it so hard right now") , and ideas if I'm asked.  They know we are financially stable.  They know we have a higher income, but probably have no real clue how much higher, because we don't live that way.  One sibling seriously needs to get a job, and needs to accept that children in the double digit years will be okay without a stay-at-home parent.  But I won't be the one to say it, because I haven't been asked.  I feel sad that so many people -- not just family members -- think there is no other way to live.  I've heard from the lips of my own mother the idea that we're going to die in debt anyway, so why deny ourselves something so normal as Christmas gifts -- and I've heard it in the next generation as well.

bmjohnson35

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2020, 02:47:27 PM »

I am empathetic to the few in my life who are struggling.  We are fortunate that our kids are all still working, because none of them have followed our lifestyle, despite our efforts to teach them differently.  It is frustrating when I hear someone say that they wish they were as disciplined as I when it came to handling their finances.......as if I was born with some innate special ability.  I try not to judge, since I know I could do better myself and I can't possibly know their full situation.

I think being generally supportive/empathetic is probably the best option. I also don't talk about how well we are doing.  I usually just say that these times are hard on everyone and that we have to watch our money closely as well.  Vague enough to be accurate, without clarifying that we watch our money closely by choice, not based on the state of the economy.


CupcakeGuru

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2020, 05:02:36 AM »
Looking back as a almost 50 year old, the best thing that every happened to me was getting laid off when I was 28. I worked at MegaCorp with most of senior management people making about $100,000 a year. The junior staff (me included) made about $30 in VHCOL area. We were told in September of that year we were being laid off and that we would be paid 75% of our salary through December 31 of that year and we could take off as much time as we needed to interview for new jobs.

I will never forgot going into one of the senior mgrs office who was talking to another senior mgr. They were both about 45 years old. They were both trying to figure how they were going to pay mortgages, kids private school and the summer houses they both had. One was really upset because he just paid for an European vacation for the family to the tune of $15,000. He said he could cover about 2 months of expenses but there was no way they could survive on just 75% of his salary (he made about $150,000 a year).

It was the most eye opening experience for me.  That people making so much money could barely make it a couple of months. I vowed right then that i would never allow myself to be in that position. It took me a long time, but i managed to save a big EF. It came in handy when I was 33 and laid off again and was pregnant.

I do have empathy for a lot of people and try not to judge their circumstances, but there has to be a point when people take control of their situation.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 05:08:02 AM by CupcakeGuru »

MayDay

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4958
Re: Responding to peers going through economic shock
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2020, 05:26:15 AM »
One thing that seems weird to me is when people are unwilling to just temporarily do some other type of work, even when the alternative is losing their home, all their savings, etc. Like, I don't know, I'm a receptionist, but I've worked in factories before, and would have no qualms applying at the local toilet paper factory or tofu factory or whatever if I couldn't find my normal type of work. Yes, yes, if you're an 80 year old librarian who walks with a cane maybe that won't work too well, but I feel like a lot of people could just go do something else for awhile.

Yes.

And BTW many many many manufacturing plants are hiring..both mine and my husband's are, and starting pay is 15-20/hour + benefits so not spectacular but solid for a low to middle COL area with advancement opportunity.

It really is interesting. In our house conversations about being potentially laid off have always included going and getting any sort of job we can to fill the gap. My uncle in his 50's got laid off from a social worker job and is now the night janitor at a manufacturing plant.  I'm not above anything (although I wouldn't bother until UI runs out since we can live on that just fine). But when UI runs out? See you at the grocery store or Starbucks or whatever!