The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Gumption on July 05, 2019, 07:21:34 AM
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We recently moved to a more rural setting. Mid life crisis. We have 2 kids (13, 9) that have adjusted pretty well so far.
Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores, the expense of the local grocery store (whole foods was much cheaper) and the lack of connections are killing us.
The schools are very good, but that is not a big enough reason to deal with the downsides.
Anyone been through this? Has anyone moved back because of this?
I know we will lose some money selling our house and moving back to our original "home"town, but we are seriously considering doing it. We had a fairly decent FIRE plan in place there. That is now in limbo given our situation here. I want to move back and into less of a house to make up for the decision we've made to move out here.
Help :-)
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Well, what were the reasons you moved in the first place? Are you already FIREd?
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How recent? Does your spouse feel the same?
I see 2 schools of thought.
1) it's summer and you could potentially get your kids back into their old schools by the start, if going back to your old school district was your desire
2) take some time to plan and figure out exactly what you did wrong so you can avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Also potentially give yourself enough time to settle in your location while you are looking to see whether the grass is truly greener back in the city.
It's a tough position to be in for sure. I've made a couple moves where either the new city was a bad fit or the new job was a bad fit, both of which required moving. I let things completely fall apart and gave both locations a year before deciding it was time to go.
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We are going to make it through the school year at least. It's simply too early to pull the plug as we have been here 6months.
We are old enough to know, however, that its just isn't going to work long term. Spouse and I feel the same way.
We originally moved as it had been a dream to live away from the ever expanding concrete jungle. We were going to wait until the kids were off to college (8years) to make the move to this area, but decided that it could be a good experience for them as well. Schools are great. We had some medical stuff happen last year that made us realize life is short and not to wait.
After having been here 6months, we have a different outlook now. We aren't complete morons, but basically the reality of this place has set in, and it is not what we are looking for.
Fuzzy math. thanks. I agree with your second suggestion. A mistake is not a mistake if you can learn from it.
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I can’t gather from your post - is it the 10 minute drive that’s really bothering you, or is it a further drive to a larger city for regular things?
I grew up in a town of about 5k. A town with a population of 20k was 30 miles away, and the closest place over 100k people was 90 miles a day. We also lived about 10-15 minutes from town for several year. Nowadays, with amazon prime and the internet, living in smaller towns is much less of a hassle than it used to be.
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
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10 mins to the village, 12 minutes to the larger town. Larger town has very limited stores, including one grocery store that is super expensive.
Some box stores are 20mins away.
basically with 2 kids, there is a ton of driving back and forth. Its hard to enjoy nature when you are in a car most of the day.
I work at home, so am feeling pretty isolated except when i can get it town to do errands.
It isn't the drive per se, but rather the cumulative effect of all the tiny things we overlooked (or were not visible) during the 10 or so years we visited before moving.
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
My reading was that it takes 10 minutes to get to a single grocery store more expensive than Whole Foods, and everything else is much farther.
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I hate living in rural areas, precisely for this reason. You tried it, you didn’t like it. I think you cut your losses, recognize that you’ve learned a valuable lesson, and move on.
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10 mins to the village, 12 minutes to the larger town. Larger town has very limited stores, including one grocery store that is super expensive.
Some box stores are 20mins away.
basically with 2 kids, there is a ton of driving back and forth. Its hard to enjoy nature when you are in a car most of the day.
I work at home, so am feeling pretty isolated except when i can get it town to do errands.
It isn't the drive per se, but rather the cumulative effect of all the tiny things we overlooked (or were not visible) during the 10 or so years we visited before moving.
I understand that, completely. Husband and I have romanticized the idea of leaving our suburban home and buying land in the upper peninsula of Michigan. But...I also work from home and do not particularly enjoy winter sports, and it snows there for 7 months of the year. Where we live now, I can easily get to several grocery stores, a library, and good medical facilities even if the weather is lousy. Our area also has lots of museums and a big conservatory that I use in winter when I need a break from the cold and gloom, plus my choirs and other volunteer groups. I would miss all of those things tremendously.
I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
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I read a study many years ago where an anthropologist studied people leaving the city for the countryside. He said that if he got to speak with the movers for 15 minutes, he could almost with 100% correctness predict if they would still be living there in 2 years. There are, in general, some serious misconceptions from city folks how it actually is to live in rural areas (and the other way around, for that matter). I come from a small place myself and I get quite baffled when someone with no clue talk about the relaxed joyful life of moving to a small farm and have animals, for example. It's a lot of work.
Regardless of what it is there are certain things in everyday life you take for granted and after a while you don't think about those anymore. Until they suddenly are unavailable to you.
You tried, it didn't work out for you. If the rest of the family agrees, cut your losses and move back at the end of the school year. You are now able to make a more informed decision. The place might grow on you, but from what you say, I don't think its very likely.
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In 2013 my DH and I relocated from a medium sized northern city to an island community in Florida. Most people would say we lived in paradise, and we did enjoy it... for about 3 years. After a while the grind of needing to drive through horrible traffic to the mainland to do normal things like go to the bank, a decent grocery store, or to see a competent doctor really started to wear on us. We also didn't like the isolation and lack of social stimulus, especially in the summer off season. You can only have the same conversation every Wednesday for so long.
Last summer we sold that house and moved to a large metro area. We're still close enough to nature and the water to get there when we want, but every other aspect of life is more convenient.
Maybe it's time to do a more comprehensive location search. If there are things about your old hometown you don't want to deal with anymore, and your current rural location is not the answer, you might need to find an entirely new region.
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
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Not to play captain hindsight but this is why we rented for the first year after relocating. So many variables when making that big of a shift in lifestyle and you really don't want to put all of your eggs in that basket.
I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
Many rural areas do not have high speed internet outside of satellite or cell phones. My parents live in an area like that and it is nowhere near as desolate as the Michigan UP.
10 mins to the village, 12 minutes to the larger town. Larger town has very limited stores, including one grocery store that is super expensive.
Some box stores are 20mins away.
basically with 2 kids, there is a ton of driving back and forth. Its hard to enjoy nature when you are in a car most of the day.
I work at home, so am feeling pretty isolated except when i can get it town to do errands.
It isn't the drive per se, but rather the cumulative effect of all the tiny things we overlooked (or were not visible) during the 10 or so years we visited before moving.
I grew up in a pretty similar situation and then went the other direction after moving out (going from a grocery store being 15 mins away to it being around the corner). One thing that always shocked me was how many of my coworkers would "run to the store" for an item that they knew they would need 3 days ago, but didn't buy on their multiple trips to the store since then.
Living that far from a grocery store means meal planning and buying stuff when you're near it. Takes more planning but once you're used to it, it becomes second nature. This is something everyone should be doing honestly as the time wasted going to the grocery store constantly adds up quickly.
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I appreciate the latest responses and the link to the previous thread. Glad to hear this is not uncommon.
I guess when one posts one of these things, they generally are looking for a response that confirms their wishes.
So far, for me, that is something like, "You tried it, it wasn't for you. It was expensive and set you back a bit on FIRE, but you learned some valuable lessons about who you really are and who you want to be."
I guess, perhaps, I am a sucker for civilization?
BTW, we are 12mins from a very good college, that has events, museums, etc. They are just kinda few and far between...and that's yet another trip into town.
To answer another question: Working from home somehow is quite different depending on what your surroundings are.
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
My reading was that it takes 10 minutes to get to a single grocery store more expensive than Whole Foods, and everything else is much farther.
Well, OP stated, "we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k)"
So, cities with a 25K population in my region have multiple grocery stores, a larger dept. store, clothing stores, multiple gas stations, drug stores, dollar stores, home improvement stores, schools, gyms, etc. And as someone else mentioned, there's always Amazon and mail-order to get anything you can get locally, and it's actually more convenient anyway.
I agree with the comment from the other poster about working from home. Why does that matter? More peace should help you work.
It sounds like the OP is in a great situation but just isn't seeing it. I think I would try to look at the positive aspects and not overblow what is being perceived as negative and give the place a chance.
The 10 minute drive to town is insignificant. I can spend far more time than that driving across a larger city to get somewhere.
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
I work from home. I can tell you that there is quite a bit of difference. Not in the actual sitting at your desk part. But for me, when I need a break, I stand up from my desk, step out the door, and am immediately in an environment with people, houses, animals, stores within a few minutes' walk, lovely gardens to enjoy...
Contrast that with being out in the middle of nowhere. Where I would step out the door, and see... no one and nothing, and would have to get in my car and drive for miles just to be around other humans. Psychologically, it's quite different.
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
My reading was that it takes 10 minutes to get to a single grocery store more expensive than Whole Foods, and everything else is much farther.
Well, OP stated, "we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k)"
So, cities with a 25K population in my region have multiple grocery stores, a larger dept. store, clothing stores, multiple gas stations, drug stores, dollar stores, home improvement stores, schools, gyms, etc. And as someone else mentioned, there's always Amazon and mail-order to get anything you can get locally, and it's actually more convenient anyway.
I agree with the comment from the other poster about working from home. Why does that matter? More peace should help you work.
It sounds like the OP is in a great situation but just isn't seeing it. I think I would try to look at the positive aspects and not overblow what is being perceived as negative and give the place a chance.
The 10 minute drive to town is insignificant. I can spend far more time than that driving across a larger city to get somewhere.
I cannot figure out why you are arguing that OP's experience and feelings are... essentially wrong.
You are a different person than OP, with different preferences. Awesome. But... why feel the need to keep commenting here and tell the OP that they essentially need to be more like you?
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
I work from home. I can tell you that there is quite a bit of difference. Not in the actual sitting at your desk part. But for me, when I need a break, I stand up from my desk, step out the door, and am immediately in an environment with people, houses, animals, stores within a few minutes' walk, lovely gardens to enjoy...
Contrast that with being out in the middle of nowhere. Where I would step out the door, and see... no one and nothing, and would have to get in my car and drive for miles just to be around other humans. Psychologically, it's quite different.
Wow, having all that activity right outside my house would be distracting to me. I don't even like to hear the train in the distance or the neighbor's lawn mower. lol
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
I work from home. I can tell you that there is quite a bit of difference. Not in the actual sitting at your desk part. But for me, when I need a break, I stand up from my desk, step out the door, and am immediately in an environment with people, houses, animals, stores within a few minutes' walk, lovely gardens to enjoy...
Contrast that with being out in the middle of nowhere. Where I would step out the door, and see... no one and nothing, and would have to get in my car and drive for miles just to be around other humans. Psychologically, it's quite different.
Wow, having all that activity right outside my house would be distracting to me. I don't even like to hear the train in the distance or the neighbor's lawn mower. lol
Different strokes. I far prefer it.
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
My reading was that it takes 10 minutes to get to a single grocery store more expensive than Whole Foods, and everything else is much farther.
Well, OP stated, "we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k)"
So, cities with a 25K population in my region have multiple grocery stores, a larger dept. store, clothing stores, multiple gas stations, drug stores, dollar stores, home improvement stores, schools, gyms, etc. And as someone else mentioned, there's always Amazon and mail-order to get anything you can get locally, and it's actually more convenient anyway.
I agree with the comment from the other poster about working from home. Why does that matter? More peace should help you work.
It sounds like the OP is in a great situation but just isn't seeing it. I think I would try to look at the positive aspects and not overblow what is being perceived as negative and give the place a chance.
The 10 minute drive to town is insignificant. I can spend far more time than that driving across a larger city to get somewhere.
I cannot figure out why you are arguing that OP's experience and feelings are... essentially wrong.
You are a different person than OP, with different preferences. Awesome. But... why feel the need to keep commenting here and tell the OP that they essentially need to be more like you?
Who is arguing? I pointed out some things about a 25K city. And I said I would give the place a chance. Whether the OP will do that is up to them.
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Hello,
Rural relocating can be tricky! Proximity to ammenities, employment, and connection to like minded people really are the bread and butter of life in my opinion!
Having relocated from coastal Massachusetts just a year ago to rural Virginia,, small town 30 min from Roanoke,, life is drastically different.
Honestly, my small town is kind of shitty but Roanoke supplies the amenities although it lacks a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's. Screaming!
To look on the bright side, your family is together and well, maybe do nothing in the meantime due to feelings of uncertainty and mid life crisis motives. Give it time, adjust, network, maybe carpool the kids somehow to cut down on drive time even if it means hiring someone..
My new life here is far better, than just a year ago. Keep that thought as motivation before scrapping your current in progress dream..
Forget about FIRE and charting progress on spreadsheets for a bit. This website focuses to much on the endgame at times and robotic like movement to achieve a measured successful outcome. We all have a limited amount of time on this planet.
I joke that I retired since having relocated from Massachusetts before age 40! But there is Truth to it.
Truth is I haven't worked in over a year except for daily construction on our homestead here in the hills. To me , I can always return to work but we only live once.
I'm just a residential carpenter by trade.
Good luck
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
My reading was that it takes 10 minutes to get to a single grocery store more expensive than Whole Foods, and everything else is much farther.
Well, OP stated, "we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k)"
So, cities with a 25K population in my region have multiple grocery stores, a larger dept. store, clothing stores, multiple gas stations, drug stores, dollar stores, home improvement stores, schools, gyms, etc. And as someone else mentioned, there's always Amazon and mail-order to get anything you can get locally, and it's actually more convenient anyway.
I agree with the comment from the other poster about working from home. Why does that matter? More peace should help you work.
It sounds like the OP is in a great situation but just isn't seeing it. I think I would try to look at the positive aspects and not overblow what is being perceived as negative and give the place a chance.
The 10 minute drive to town is insignificant. I can spend far more time than that driving across a larger city to get somewhere.
I cannot figure out why you are arguing that OP's experience and feelings are... essentially wrong.
You are a different person than OP, with different preferences. Awesome. But... why feel the need to keep commenting here and tell the OP that they essentially need to be more like you?
Who is arguing? I pointed out some things about a 25K city. And I said I could give the place a chance. Whether the OP will do that is up to him. I never told the OP to be like me - not sure where you came up with that.
Your first comment on this thread was, "It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself."
Your second comment was talking about 25k cities in your region, and basically telling the OP that what they want wasn't a big deal. And then arguing about why it would matter where you work from home (even though you just told me that you would hate working from home in my environment, so you clearly see that it does matter).
And then you say the OP's situation is great but they aren't seeing it. And that they are overblowing the situation. And that their drive to town is insignificant.
So yeah. Maybe stop trying to convince the OP that what they want doesn't make any sense.
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In 2013 my DH and I relocated from a medium sized northern city to an island community in Florida. Most people would say we lived in paradise, and we did enjoy it... for about 3 years. After a while the grind of needing to drive through horrible traffic to the mainland to do normal things like go to the bank, a decent grocery store, or to see a competent doctor really started to wear on us. We also didn't like the isolation and lack of social stimulus, especially in the summer off season. You can only have the same conversation every Wednesday for so long.
Last summer we sold that house and moved to a large metro area. We're still close enough to nature and the water to get there when we want, but every other aspect of life is more convenient.
Maybe it's time to do a more comprehensive location search. If there are things about your old hometown you don't want to deal with anymore, and your current rural location is not the answer, you might need to find an entirely new region.
My brother had a very similar experience. He and his wife are both Parrotheads, and shared that Jimmy Buffett dream of island life. But after living a few years on an island off Puerto Rico, they were more than ready to move back to the mainland, mostly for the reasons you mention (also adding local housing with no A/C, and weird local politics, to that mix). They live in Sarasota now, and they're much happier.
EDIT: And to show how even "mistakes" can work out in your favor: while he was down there, my brother fell into a line of work that provided a lot of income and great life experiences for them for several years. Probably never would have happened had they not lived there when they did.
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I appreciate the latest responses and the link to the previous thread. Glad to hear this is not uncommon.
I guess when one posts one of these things, they generally are looking for a response that confirms their wishes.
So far, for me, that is something like, "You tried it, it wasn't for you. It was expensive and set you back a bit on FIRE, but you learned some valuable lessons about who you really are and who you want to be."
I guess, perhaps, I am a sucker for civilization?
BTW, we are 12mins from a very good college, that has events, museums, etc. They are just kinda few and far between...and that's yet another trip into town.
To answer another question: Working from home somehow is quite different depending on what your surroundings are.
You know what you need to do, you don’t need our permission or pat on the back. You have a plan and strategy, execute it. 8 years would be a long time to live unhappy. Move, as quick as possible, get the smaller place, and use this info to inform your thinking when the kids go off on their own.
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I can completely relate to all of this.
I live about 10 minutes from a town of 10k, 30 minutes from a town of 30k, and an hour from a big city of 800k.... and I hate it here. I've been in this particular area for 7 years and, if anything, it's getting worse and not better. We're on a 5-year-plan to move and it can't come soon enough.
It sounds like you're planning to give it another year, which I think is a good idea. At the same time, though, try to figure out what specifically you're missing. Maybe you'll find ways to reincorporate those things in your new location.... which would be ideal. If not, though, at least you'll have a better list when you start looking for your next location!
Also, travel more. I've decided that's the key for me. Long weekends, work conferences, whatever... I try to get out of this town as much as possible (sometimes with the husband/kiddo, but he grew up in this town and has higher tolerance, so often I'm leaving alone!).
They live in Sarasota now, and they're much happier.
I grew up in Sarasota and would move back IN A HEARTBEAT. This rural NC fantasy sounded fun and all, until a couple of years in. Now I miss civilization. And parks. And beaches. And diversity of thought. And people who have experience living in different counties, states, or even countries. And all the other things.
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I read a study many years ago where an anthropologist studied people leaving the city for the countryside. He said that if he got to speak with the movers for 15 minutes, he could almost with 100% correctness predict if they would still be living there in 2 years. There are, in general, some serious misconceptions from city folks how it actually is to live in rural areas (and the other way around, for that matter). I come from a small place myself and I get quite baffled when someone with no clue talk about the relaxed joyful life of moving to a small farm and have animals, for example. It's a lot of work.
Regardless of what it is there are certain things in everyday life you take for granted and after a while you don't think about those anymore. Until they suddenly are unavailable to you.
You tried, it didn't work out for you. If the rest of the family agrees, cut your losses and move back at the end of the school year. You are now able to make a more informed decision. The place might grow on you, but from what you say, I don't think its very likely.
View it as an adventure. Sometimes we have to try something to see if we like it.
I prefer the city. I love that there is a Trader Joe's across the street from my condo complex. I like that a wonderful hospital is just 15 minutes away. I like that I have two Costcos within easy driving distance. I visit a regular grocery store just a handful of times each year. I like that there are multiple hiking meetups almost every day within about an hour's drive. I like the abundance of churches around me. I like the choices of multiple free summer concerts in the park within a 15-minute drive. I can hear traffic from my windows. It's just part of the city.
You will recover financially.
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I can relate to this.
We used to live in Stockholm. Scandinavian cities are as close to a Mustachian paradise as human settlements are currently getting.
We moved to Luxembourg, to earn more money, but it is a much different setting. We are not even as desperately rural as Luxembourg inevitably gets if you try to look for affordable housing, but even at its most urban Luxembourg is still not a city and not a Scandinavian one for sure.
I am unhappy and I want to move back. So even with the trade off of it bringing us closer to FI it is making me miserable.
I grew up in a rural area and I hated it. I only started to feel alive once I moved to a city.
I strongly believe that it is different types of personalities you need to have to thrive in a city vs. thrive in a rural area and the same person will NEVER be able to enjoy both equally.
We also have the problem that my husband doesn't share my skepticism of living here. If both you and your spouse agree that this arrangement is not working for you, run and don't look back.
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Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores
It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself.
My reading was that it takes 10 minutes to get to a single grocery store more expensive than Whole Foods, and everything else is much farther.
Well, OP stated, "we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k)"
So, cities with a 25K population in my region have multiple grocery stores, a larger dept. store, clothing stores, multiple gas stations, drug stores, dollar stores, home improvement stores, schools, gyms, etc. And as someone else mentioned, there's always Amazon and mail-order to get anything you can get locally, and it's actually more convenient anyway.
I agree with the comment from the other poster about working from home. Why does that matter? More peace should help you work.
It sounds like the OP is in a great situation but just isn't seeing it. I think I would try to look at the positive aspects and not overblow what is being perceived as negative and give the place a chance.
The 10 minute drive to town is insignificant. I can spend far more time than that driving across a larger city to get somewhere.
I cannot figure out why you are arguing that OP's experience and feelings are... essentially wrong.
You are a different person than OP, with different preferences. Awesome. But... why feel the need to keep commenting here and tell the OP that they essentially need to be more like you?
Who is arguing? I pointed out some things about a 25K city. And I said I could give the place a chance. Whether the OP will do that is up to him. I never told the OP to be like me - not sure where you came up with that.
Your first comment on this thread was, "It often takes more than 10 minutes to get to stores in a large city. I would rather drive through 10 minutes of the countryside myself."
Your second comment was talking about 25k cities in your region, and basically telling the OP that what they want wasn't a big deal. And then arguing about why it would matter where you work from home (even though you just told me that you would hate working from home in my environment, so you clearly see that it does matter).
And then you say the OP's situation is great but they aren't seeing it. And that they are overblowing the situation. And that their drive to town is insignificant.
So yeah. Maybe stop trying to convince the OP that what they want doesn't make any sense.
Oh, I see. I was offering my perspective on things since the OP appeared to be looking for feedback on the situation. I'm sorry you thought I was arguing. It was just friendly discussion from my viewpoint.
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40 years ago we did the same thing and moved back after 2 years. What a pain to get kids in town for their activities. High grocery prices because lack of competition. Not much to do. It was a financial mistake but that’s life.
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I strongly believe that it is different types of personalities you need to have to thrive in a city vs. thrive in a rural area and the same person will NEVER be able to enjoy both equally.
I'm interested in this because, as you say, people do seem to fall into one camp or the other, and they often seem to feel quite strongly about their preference. But personally: I enjoy giant cities, I enjoy college towns, I enjoy small towns (I live in one now), and I enjoy rural living. There are good cities and bad cities, good towns and bad towns, good rural areas and bad rural areas, but I've found all sorts of different types of places I could enjoy living in.
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Honestly, my small town is kind of shitty but Roanoke supplies the amenities although it lacks a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's. Screaming!
My son is moving to Roanoke for college in August. I have seriously considered the area but the lack of Trader Joe's makes me sad! I don't need EVERY city amenity, but we love Trader Joe's!
As to the OP, I have considered many relocation options and so far we're sticking with downsizing in our local community. I think if we do leave the area we'll take the often-dispensed advice to rent for a year to prevent what you're experiencing. Not that that's helpful in hindsight. To your issue at hand, I think to build off of the "life is short" comment...if you know it isn't going to work and you can make the change, do it and move on. See it as a lesson, next time rent for a year first to be "sure", and let your regret go.
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Thanks for the feedback. Yes, i think using the word "regret" is a bit overly dramatic.
Indeed, it was something that we needed to do and the key is to continue to operate with a positive attitude even though it may be a temporary situation. Aren't all situations temporary?
We will be here for the school year and will do our best to enjoy the unique situation. Renting may have been a smarter option, but the logistics of that were difficult and rentals are few and far between here.
Who knows? it may all work out. I am still seeing things with my city operating system.
I think that one thing other followers can get from this thread is that even though you may do your best work in researching and visiting an area -- we've been doing in this particular area for 10+ years -- the actual reality of daily life is something that you will never fully understand until you actually do it. Renting might be the best way to accomplish this, although, even then, you always have that easy out if you need it.
This has been a level of suffering I never thought would occur as we were planning/executing this. But, now that it is here, I need to honor it for what is it...and that's an opportunity to get closer to my version of an authentic life.
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Honestly, my small town is kind of shitty but Roanoke supplies the amenities although it lacks a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's. Screaming!
My son is moving to Roanoke for college in August. I have seriously considered the area but the lack of Trader Joe's makes me sad! I don't need EVERY city amenity, but we love Trader Joe's!
As to the OP, I have considered many relocation options and so far we're sticking with downsizing in our local community. I think if we do leave the area we'll take the often-dispensed advice to rent for a year to prevent what you're experiencing. Not that that's helpful in hindsight. To your issue at hand, I think to build off of the "life is short" comment...if you know it isn't going to work and you can make the change, do it and move on. See it as a lesson, next time rent for a year first to be "sure", and let your regret go.
That would be odd to me to build my living decisions around Trader Joe’s. Can’t live in Spain, no Trader Joe’s. What about this place? Nope, no Trader Joe’s. Life is just less enjoyable without our Trader Joe’s! Weird.
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Close access to good stores is a great thing. I had to move to a different town, and every time I needed something it was a 15 min ride in traffic. What a drag. Now I live within walking distance to a Walmart and supermarket, and it is so much nicer.
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Im not a big trader joes fan either, but companies spend millions of dollars figuring out where to put new stores.
All that time and effort they put in going over education, demographics, education statistics etc can be useful if you are trying to sync with a particular area's community.
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I grew up in rural areas and hated it. In my early 30s, I took a job in a small town that was a fair drive from anything larger. I spent 3 years there, and it wasn't until I managed to get out that I realized I'd been operating in an escalating low-level depression pretty much the whole time. It took quite a toll on me.
People can be pretty sensitive to their living environments. There's nothing to be ashamed about in admitting it matters.
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
Working from home, for me, means that I (and many others) need to get out and socialize. We don't have water cooler conversations in the office. It's much easier to socialize in some areas than others.
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The citizens of Roanoke are working with city counsel on bringing in a Trader Joe, but it will be a couple years.
We do have an Earth Fare (identical to Whole foods) and Kroger on every street corner and one Aldi near the airport.
Local and legal moonshine distilling too.
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Im not a big trader joes fan either, but companies spend millions of dollars figuring out where to put new stores.
All that time and effort they put in going over education, demographics, education statistics etc can be useful if you are trying to sync with a particular area's community.
As I understand it, the demographic "problem" in Roanoke's case is as simple as a low average/median income. Which, given the equally low CoL, isn't as big a deal as it might sound in terms of community culture.
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I love living in a small rural town, but I grew up on a farm so I knew what I was getting into. Plus I'm an introvert so my need for social connection is lower. For me the inconveniences are a small price to pay for peace and beauty in my life.
I have to drive back to the "metropolis" from time to time but I can feel my blood pressure rise with the ambient stress as I approach the cities. I have no regrets and would never go back.
I suspect I'm the exception though, I know many of my city friends still think I'll get tired of it and move back.
or maybe I'm not the exception after all:
People who live in Small Towns are the Happiest (https://curiosity.com/topics/people-who-live-in-small-towns-are-the-happiest-according-to-research-curiosity/)
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I love living in a small rural town, but I grew up on a farm so I knew what I was getting into. Plus I'm an introvert so my need for social connection is lower. For me the inconveniences are a small price to pay for peace and beauty in my life.
I have to drive back to the "metropolis" from time to time but I can feel my blood pressure rise with the ambient stress as I approach the cities. I have no regrets and would never go back.
I suspect I'm the exception though, I know many of my city friends still think I'll get tired of it and move back.
My uncle is much like you. After he retired, he and my aunt moved to rural northern Michigan. They live on a lake, so the neighborhood empties out after Labor Day. He loves the lifestyle and has panic attacks if he has to drive any further south than Saginaw (halfway down the lower peninsula). My aunt, on the other hand, misses the regular socialization that she had with her children, siblings, and neighbors back in metro Detroit. The isolation has advanced her dementia significantly. They probably would have done very well in a small town neighborhood with a stable year-round population for socialization.
It really comes down to knowing oneself and what you can tolerate. You sound like you've found the right spot for you.
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I never moved to “the country “ and never wanted to move out to the country for the precise reason you cite, every time you go someplace you have to get into the car.
I spent a couple of years casting about for another place to live that was maybe a weekend house maybe a permanent house I don’t know but I always said I need to live within civilization and I define that as living within walking distance of a coffee shop. We have lived in the urban core for 30 years and are interested in moving out of that and having more space for gardens.
We ended up within walking distance of two coffee shops in a very small touristy town, but even better I am within nine doors of an established winery.
I could talk to you about forging relationships and making a social connections, but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
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but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
I have to do this even living in town since I'm not near the urban center, which is about 2 miles to the get to the closest restaurants, and double that to get to some other popular places.
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but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
I have to do this even living in town since I'm not near the urban center, which is about 2 miles to the get to the closest restaurants, and double that to get to some other popular places.
Dude - 2 miles is walking distance.
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
I work from home. I can tell you that there is quite a bit of difference. Not in the actual sitting at your desk part. But for me, when I need a break, I stand up from my desk, step out the door, and am immediately in an environment with people, houses, animals, stores within a few minutes' walk, lovely gardens to enjoy...
Contrast that with being out in the middle of nowhere. Where I would step out the door, and see... no one and nothing, and would have to get in my car and drive for miles just to be around other humans. Psychologically, it's quite different.
Thanks for the perspective Kris, I appreciate that. I've never worked from home, so I couldn't really speak to why home in the country versus home in the city would really matter; while you were actually physically working. I see where you're coming from regarding the breaks and maybe leaving for a quick walk to get refreshed. My home is 5 miles from where I work, so while it can feel very isolated at times, we're within minutes of a bustling urban area. I go home every day for lunch just to get away from the noise, but I can see why others might enjoy having people, stores, gardens, etc. close by if that's what you like.
I think a lot of it can depend on what sort of things you value in terms of work-life balance. I'm a quieter person by nature, and tend to really love the peace and quiet the countryside offers. It helps me unwind to not have to be around people, and being able to walk out my back door to see trees, sky, crops, livestock, etc. and not hear the noises associated with a more city-based life.
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
Working from home, for me, means that I (and many others) need to get out and socialize. We don't have water cooler conversations in the office. It's much easier to socialize in some areas than others.
Thanks for the response Jen. I think like others have posted, it all boils down to each of our individual needs for interaction/seclusion. I go out of my way at the office to not have water cooler discussions and chat with people if I can help it. I spend a fair amount of time in my office with the door closed so that people will be discouraged from interrupting me while I work just to chat. The moment I get home all that anxiety usually just melts away and I can truly relax. So I fully understand where you're coming from on this. I appreciate your response.
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but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
I have to do this even living in town since I'm not near the urban center, which is about 2 miles to the get to the closest restaurants, and double that to get to some other popular places.
Dude - 2 miles is walking distance.
LOL. That's just to the nearest restaurant, one way. I never see people walking on that route except for exercise and walking their dogs. Work is 4 mile round trip as well. And I'm not going to waste all that extra time walking in summer heat or winter cold, and we often have rain as well. And carrying groceries nearly 4 miles isn't going to happen, either. So the bottom line is that I am using the car every time I need to go somewhere, despite living in city limits. It's well worth it to me - I don't mind using the car - that's what I bought it for, and I still have an 80% savings rate. I use the bike for recreational exercise during the summer months when it's OK that I sweat because I'm not going anywhere.
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That would be odd to me to build my living decisions around Trader Joe’s. Can’t live in Spain, no Trader Joe’s. What about this place? Nope, no Trader Joe’s. Life is just less enjoyable without our Trader Joe’s! Weird.
Ha ha, I think you took my comment a little more seriously than I intended it to be. I believe I said it would "make me sad" not "be a deal breaker/primary decision point". And yes, I could certainly give up Trader Joe's to live in many, many places. We plan to slow travel in retirement so we'll be TJ-less plenty in the future. There sure are a few things we really like that we only buy there though, and I love being able to buy single bottles of beer on occasion to try something new.
My son will be happy to know there may be one going in eventually in Roanoke, though, so thanks @Blueridgeboy .
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and I love being able to buy single bottles of beer on occasion to try something new.
Just FYI...Publix is another national chain that lets you buy a mixer sixer or individual bottles of beer.
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Honestly, my small town is kind of shitty but Roanoke supplies the amenities although it lacks a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's. Screaming!
My son is moving to Roanoke for college in August. I have seriously considered the area but the lack of Trader Joe's makes me sad! I don't need EVERY city amenity, but we love Trader Joe's!
As to the OP, I have considered many relocation options and so far we're sticking with downsizing in our local community. I think if we do leave the area we'll take the often-dispensed advice to rent for a year to prevent what you're experiencing. Not that that's helpful in hindsight. To your issue at hand, I think to build off of the "life is short" comment...if you know it isn't going to work and you can make the change, do it and move on. See it as a lesson, next time rent for a year first to be "sure", and let your regret go.
That would be odd to me to build my living decisions around Trader Joe’s. Can’t live in Spain, no Trader Joe’s. What about this place? Nope, no Trader Joe’s. Life is just less enjoyable without our Trader Joe’s! Weird.
I know! I think Whole Foods is a joke and Trader Joe’s just—odd. The love they inspire is beyond my ken.
I do occasionally go to TJ’s to actually buy things ( I go to Whole Foods only to point and laugh ) and as always at Trader Joe’s I was struck by how everything is over packaged. There’s so much packaging. And then the very nice young lady who checked me out tried desperately to chat me up as they are trained to do, and I responded because I’m polite, but the entire time all I could think of was you don’t care about what I’m doing today, why do I have to tell you what my plans are for the day, neither one of us give a shit about interacting with each other. Blech.
I am an introvert in the city. I love city architecture and city institutions. When we move to our tiny tourist town I’m going to maintain an apartment in the city.
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I read a study many years ago where an anthropologist studied people leaving the city for the countryside. He said that if he got to speak with the movers for 15 minutes, he could almost with 100% correctness predict if they would still be living there in 2 years. There are, in general, some serious misconceptions from city folks how it actually is to live in rural areas (and the other way around, for that matter).
Intriguing. Do you remember any of the specific questions or generalizations regarding how to see if one would succeed in relocating?
This whole thread is really informative as we are in the beginning stages of discussion regarding a move from suburba -rural HCOL to more rural/town.
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Honestly, my small town is kind of shitty but Roanoke supplies the amenities although it lacks a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's. Screaming!
My son is moving to Roanoke for college in August. I have seriously considered the area but the lack of Trader Joe's makes me sad! I don't need EVERY city amenity, but we love Trader Joe's!
As to the OP, I have considered many relocation options and so far we're sticking with downsizing in our local community. I think if we do leave the area we'll take the often-dispensed advice to rent for a year to prevent what you're experiencing. Not that that's helpful in hindsight. To your issue at hand, I think to build off of the "life is short" comment...if you know it isn't going to work and you can make the change, do it and move on. See it as a lesson, next time rent for a year first to be "sure", and let your regret go.
That would be odd to me to build my living decisions around Trader Joe’s. Can’t live in Spain, no Trader Joe’s. What about this place? Nope, no Trader Joe’s. Life is just less enjoyable without our Trader Joe’s! Weird.
I know! I think Whole Foods is a joke and Trader Joe’s just—odd. The love they inspire is beyond my ken.
I do occasionally go to TJ’s to actually buy things ( I go to Whole Foods only to point and laugh ) and as always at Trader Joe’s I was struck by how everything is over packaged. There’s so much packaging. And then the very nice young lady who checked me out tried desperately to chat me up as they are trained to do, and I responded because I’m polite, but the entire time all I could think of was you don’t care about what I’m doing today, why do I have to tell you what my plans are for the day, neither one of us give a shit about interacting with each other. Blech.
I am an introvert in the city. I love city architecture and city institutions. When we move to our tiny tourist town I’m going to maintain an apartment in the city.
I agree about Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s. Actually, I really like a ton of the food selections at WF, but... I dunno. Being in there always makes me feel like part of the Borg.
But I really agree with you about being an introvert in the city. I find it much easier to be an introvert in a place where I can be as anonymous as I choose. Every time I’ve ever lived in a small town, it’s felt extremely claustrophobic to me. Everybody seems to be watching you, evaluating you. And everyone wants to know your damn business.
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I read a study many years ago where an anthropologist studied people leaving the city for the countryside. He said that if he got to speak with the movers for 15 minutes, he could almost with 100% correctness predict if they would still be living there in 2 years. There are, in general, some serious misconceptions from city folks how it actually is to live in rural areas (and the other way around, for that matter).
Intriguing. Do you remember any of the specific questions or generalizations regarding how to see if one would succeed in relocating?
This whole thread is really informative as we are in the beginning stages of discussion regarding a move from suburba -rural HCOL to more rural/town.
I'd also like to hear more about this! So far, a number of Google searches haven't turned up much.
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Just FYI...Publix is another national chain that lets you buy a mixer sixer or individual bottles of beer.
Cool, thanks! We don't have Publix here but that's good to know for road trips. Sometimes I want A drink on vacation...but don't want to buy a whole six pack of anything.
I agree that there's too much packaging for a lot of items at TJs, but I've noticed it is getting better.
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I do occasionally go to TJ’s to actually buy things ( I go to Whole Foods only to point and laugh ) and as always at Trader Joe’s I was struck by how everything is over packaged. There’s so much packaging. And then the very nice young lady who checked me out tried desperately to chat me up as they are trained to do, and I responded because I’m polite, but the entire time all I could think of was you don’t care about what I’m doing today, why do I have to tell you what my plans are for the day, neither one of us give a shit about interacting with each other. Blech.
I am an introvert in the city. I love city architecture and city institutions. When we move to our tiny tourist town I’m going to maintain an apartment in the city.
Haha, yes. Trader Joe's always seems to try too hard. I don't need my grocery shopping experience to be an adventure. I just want to buy food and leave. The cashiers at Aldi and Costco are fast and don't generally chat beyond asking me if I found everything I needed.
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Is there a happy medium between the concrete jungle and the place you've moved? Perhaps somewhere that is less city-like / crowded / concrete but has bit more of a pulse?
I would be hesitant to move back to a place that you knew you didn't like, even if there's an advantage of it being a 'known' rather than 'unknown'.
Why not try somewhere new? And as a person above suggested, rent for a year before you make anything permanent :)
Regardless of what you decide to do, I think it's fantastic that you guys had the guts to act on your plans (even if it didn't directly work out). A lot of people wish they had the opportunity and courage to grab life by the horns, so kudos that you guys did it!
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but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
I have to do this even living in town since I'm not near the urban center, which is about 2 miles to the get to the closest restaurants, and double that to get to some other popular places.
Dude - 2 miles is walking distance.
If I walked 2 miles in the Atlanta heat and humidity, no one would want to socialize with me.
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We used to live in a Bay Area town with great walk-ability, nice weather and lots of diversity. When my husband died, I could not longer afford the high rent, so moved with my kids to an inland area. My aunt helped me find the "perfect" house on 2.5 acres. It was a short sale, and I got a great deal. But right away I realized just how much time was spent in the car just doing the most mundane things. A crappy minimart is three miles away, decent shopping 6 miles. My kids's schools and daycare ranged from 6 to 8 miles. If I had a nickle for every mile I've spent behind the wheel going to playdates, swim practice, and music lessons I'd have...a lot of nickles.
At various times I've thought about moving closer to town, where at least one child could walk to school, and basic services and access to my own work would mean less driving and the attendant cost and environmental impact could be mitigated somewhat. But lassitude keeps me staying put for at least the time being. One reason is I've finally gotten my house the way I like it! So here I am. My middle child is off to college in 2020 and that will leave me with the youngest just entering high school. My mortgage payments are calibrated to end as that child finishes school.
I don't love my town, but have made peace with it as a good place to raise children and builid a business; at some point I'll leave altogether for somewhere that I can walk places and have a different life. And not stretches of 100 degree temps in the summers.
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I've learned that life is full of compromises. I like some things about city living and I like some things about country living.
We live on a lake and am less than 10 minutes from a couple of okay grocery stores. Aldi, Walmart, & a few restaurants are 15 minutes away. Airport is about 33 minutes and downtown big city is 38 minutes according to Google maps.
It's rural, but close enough to the things we need. I really enjoy living close to nature, seeing wild animals and farmland is calming & makes me happy. Traffic & crowds tend to stress me out. This place seems like a good compromise between rural & city living for us.
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but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
I have to do this even living in town since I'm not near the urban center, which is about 2 miles to the get to the closest restaurants, and double that to get to some other popular places.
Dude - 2 miles is walking distance.
Yeah, in a city. In a rural area the odds of the road having any kind of a safe infrastructure to walk are slim (so sure if you are a healthy adult who's gonna walk there in daylight maybe that works but if you are bringing kids forget about it) and as someone has already mentioned, it's then probably another 2 miles to some kind of a grocery store or whatever else you might want to visit. So by the time you're done you have an 8 10 miles round trip and again, they maybe works if you are a single adult with nothing else to do and the trip happens in full daylight. Every other set up (you have a schedule to keep so you can't spend 2 3 hours per day walking, you have kids with you, it's gonna be dark by the time you go home and the street is not lit etc), come on. I am saying this as I grew up in a small town and that in Europe (so probably way more infrastructure than average American small town, as statistics seem to imply so) and distances really don't work the same way they do in a city. Sure you can walk it but you can't plan a lifestyle around walkability like you can and many do in a major city.
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Thanks for starting this thread. Good to read everyone's experiences. We are also planning to move more rural area next year and part of me is terrified about it.
Our main motivation for it is to move to a place with more beautiful nature and less traffic and noise. I would still like to live on walking/cycling distance to things like a reasonably priced grocery store and a library. And not too far driving to an airport, a hospital and a city where there is something to do. Public transport available.
I think we are not city people, as we have lived the last 20 years 30 km outside the capital in a half rural area and we dislike noise and crowded places. But we, especially I, have been meeting with likeminded people regularly for hobby events and I appreciate that. So I need to get some access to such people.
We are planning to rent first. But I think it will be expensive to move several times, because of the distances. So this is a bit risky during FIRE. But should not bust our budget with the moves.
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I read a study many years ago where an anthropologist studied people leaving the city for the countryside. He said that if he got to speak with the movers for 15 minutes, he could almost with 100% correctness predict if they would still be living there in 2 years. There are, in general, some serious misconceptions from city folks how it actually is to live in rural areas (and the other way around, for that matter).
Intriguing. Do you remember any of the specific questions or generalizations regarding how to see if one would succeed in relocating?
This whole thread is really informative as we are in the beginning stages of discussion regarding a move from suburba -rural HCOL to more rural/town.
I'd also like to hear more about this! So far, a number of Google searches haven't turned up much.
Tried finding it myself without success (it was ages ago and in Norwegian as well btw). I dont really remember any details except it generally being down to very unrealistic assumptions on what life in the countryside would bring. The "15 minutes and almost 100%" probably an exaggeration as well...
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We originally moved as it had been a dream to live away from the ever expanding concrete jungle. We were going to wait until the kids were off to college (8years) to make the move to this area, but decided that it could be a good experience for them as well. Schools are great. We had some medical stuff happen last year that made us realize life is short and not to wait.
I'm curious to hear more about the specifics of what you don't like. Other than driving to school and the grocery store, what is annoying about where you live? What do you miss most about your previous area?
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The only time I've actually lived in a place where I could walk most of the time was in college. I could walk to classes, to some of my friends, and around downtown. I still needed to drive for groceries and other things that were more than a mile or so away, especially when the weather was bad. It was a small town, not a big city.
Bikes and E-bikes might be good options if you are too far to walk but close enough to bike, depending on the terrain and climate you're in. Scooters are a fun option too. Golf carts are common in beach towns for zipping around town.
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basically with 2 kids, there is a ton of driving back and forth. Its hard to enjoy nature when you are in a car most of the day.
One thing that might be worth considering is what activities are available to you because of where you live now.
My wife and I want to live rural for things you can't do as easily in town. We want a huge garden (we have a big one in town already, but not big enough for us). We want to have woods we can wander through. We want to have more space for things like a greenhouse or workshop shed. Etc. We love waking up and seeing nature. I'd LOVE to have giant windows on our bedroom facing woods and seeing deer/birds/etc. To have a pond of some sort. Maybe even be able to fish on a larger pond on my property. Even more ideally, to live on water and wake up and go kayaking and watch a sunrise. Etc.
It isn't clear to me why you wanted to live in a rural area, other than "nature." What are you doing where you currently live to take advantage of that?
This thread has sorta reads like "we tried to live the same life we lived in the city" and not "we moved rural to do things you can only do rural." Which is fine - if you want the city life, then live in a city :-) But recognize that if you live in the country, you will want to take advantage of the things you can do there that are unique.
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Dude - 2 miles is walking distance.
If I walked 2 miles in the Atlanta heat and humidity, no one would want to socialize with me.
It was a failed attempt at irony - I'm very much used to live in rural areas and I'm fully aware of how dependent one is of car. Even if public transport is available. I come from a place with spectacular nature and endless opportunities for outdoor life. But without a car? Forget it. There ain't any buses running to but a few of places where trips start. And if they do, they are few and infrequent and don't run late. Where I come from everyone gets their driving licence when they turn 18 within a handful of days. Its just the only way to get around.
On a more general point it's important to realize that when moving to rural areas some things are way cheaper (housing being the main thing) but others become more expensive (transport - ptobably need 2 cars in a couple if both are working).
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Our main motivation for it is to move to a place with more beautiful nature and less traffic and noise. I would still like to live on walking/cycling distance to things like a reasonably priced grocery store and a library. And not too far driving to an airport, a hospital and a city where there is something to do. Public transport available.
I bought a condo in a tiny (less than 1000 residents) rural town. The post office, library, grocery store, florist/gift shop, restaurant, bowling alley/bar etc. are within 3 blocks of my home. The bus stop to the nearest big town (w TJ and intl' airport) is less than 2 blocks (it's a commuter bus, runs back and forth twice daily, 45 minutes one way). The trailhead for a 20+ mile paved bike trail (which ends at another large town) is less than a mile from my home, and the nearest state park (with 2 rivers and a lake with a beach) is a 30 minute walk. My children are grown, but if they were not the school is also within walking distance.
I can't order pizza delivery to my house, and there is no convenient fast food so I have to cook more often than I did before. The nearest medical clinic is 15 miles away, which would be inconvenient without a car (note, there was a clinic in town when I bought the condo, it has since closed). The grocery store is more expensive than it would be in a larger town, but they will deliver to my home for free once a week if I need it. There is a marked lack of diversity and a political environment that is further to the right than I would like. But overall I can live with these minor issues.
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We want to have woods we can wander through.
Interesting point about that. I moved to a rural area from a medium-city/suburban area, thinking there would be more access to nature. I quickly learned that I was wrong.
All of the woods around me? Privately owned, with no tresspassing signs every 50 feet. I can drive half an hour to one really short trail, roughly an hour each way to access some longer trails, or about two hours to reach somewhere suitable for more than a couple of hours of walking.
I had MUCH better park access in suburban FL than rural NC. YMMV, but I never even thought to research that when I moved here. I mean, come on, there's nature everywhere! But I can only view it through my car window.
Unfortunately, rural often means lack of parks and other infrastructure. So unless you plan on owning huge amounts of your own woods to walk in, do your research before assuming that rural means easy outdoor access.
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Unfortunately, rural often means lack of parks and other infrastructure. So unless you plan on owning huge amounts of your own woods to walk in, do your research before assuming that rural means easy outdoor access.
Obviously it depends. If you move to a rural area that isn't wooded, then you aren't going to have woods.
The last property I looked at in any seriousness was 12 acres of woods next to state forest.
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Unfortunately, rural often means lack of parks and other infrastructure. So unless you plan on owning huge amounts of your own woods to walk in, do your research before assuming that rural means easy outdoor access.
Obviously it depends. If you move to a rural area that isn't wooded, then you aren't going to have woods.
The last property I looked at in any seriousness was 12 acres of woods next to state forest.
Your decision-making process sounds more sound than this former city girl's. LOL.
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But how the woods are and whether those are accessable, are typically something you find out by visiting the place. It would be weird to buy something totally unknown.
I mostly associate the word rural with farmland areas. That it indeed not the same as outdoor area. Luckily where I live, much land is state owned or publically accessable by law. Trespassing signs are very uncommon.
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"Rural" and "Urban" are really, really broad terms.
For some, it will mean living on an isolated dirt road surrounded by farms, for another it will mean living in the middle of a walkable village, for another it will mean expansive forests in your back yard.
Some rural communities are hours away from the nearest urban center, others are a 20 minute drive.
You can't really just move somewhere rural, with a vague notion of "nature" and expect to be happy.
Likewise, you can't just pick a random neighbourhood in a random urban center and expect to be happy because it's "urban".
No matter where you are looking to move, you have to think very carefully about what you want your life to look like, what your deal breakers are, and what neighbourhoods can best provide to match those needs.
It's very very difficult to find a place that meets your needs until you thoroughly understand those needs. And it's best not to buy property until you determine those.
OP: it sounds like you've found two neighbourhoods that don't meet your needs. That doesn't at all mean that you shouldn't live urban or rural, it just means that you haven't yet figured out what you actually want.
That's okay, but maybe rent for awhile before committing financially to a location next time?
I've lived in dozens of neighbourhoods in several areas, from mega cities to tiny villages. It's taken me years to figure out what I really wanted, but I didn't buy anything until I was certain.
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But how the woods are and whether those are accessable, are typically something you find out by visiting the place. It would be weird to buy something totally unknown.
True, and I didn't buy when I first moved here. I rented. But once I found a job and a significant other, it became just as difficult to leave!
Anyway, I get that it was a stupid assumption on my part. As a 20-something year old city girl, though, I just didn't think about it and was swept up in quaint images of "country life." Just sharing info to hopefully help others avoid the same mistake.
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Well, first of all, I think you should be very proud of your family for trying something new. Lots of people on this site get stuck in analysis and never actually DO something. You've had an adventure together and no matter what you do next (and even if it did cost some money), you're making memories that will last for the rest of your life. Not every experiment works out...that's the nature of an experiment--no matter how much you research and plan ahead of time!
That said, would you consider giving yourself a little more time before you make up your mind? My parents moved a lot when I was young, as have I, and we all agree that it takes a minimum of a year to get settled in a new place, especially if it's really different from where you came from. Honestly, the 4-8 month period is the worst (at a new job or a new place)--the excitement of novelty has worn off, you're noticing what your new home doesn't have, you haven't necessarily found replacements or new benefits to balance it out...I moved from a city that I loved to a city that I was really meh on, for excellent reasons, and it took a year+ to feel happy here. (It's still not my favorite place, but I'll be perfectly fine here as long as I'm working at this particular job and I have found a lot to like about it). Is this your first move as a family? (if not, please excuse the question, but moving is getting to be rarer now, and if you haven't moved as a family before, it could be easy to underestimate the challenge). The other thing to ask yourself might be whether you and your spouse have ended up in a negative feedback cycle...you're not happy, so you notice and discuss the negatives, so you notice more negatives, etc.
You say the schools are great, so your kids aren't being harmed. THe money's already been spent, so it's not costing you anything to stay. Six months to a year is not very long in the span of a lifetime...why not give it a little longer, try to put aside all feelings one way or the other, and re-evaluate when you have more data to work with.
I am absolutely not discounting your feelings--maybe this isn't the right place for you, you already know it, and it's time to make a decision. Just wanted to offer another perspective!
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Thanks Noodle,
I agree with your experienced-based thoughts. The early stages of relocation (4-8months as you say) can be rough. Novelty has worn off and reality has set it in. I appreciate your comments on the negative feedback cycle. I think, indeed, we are somewhere in that loop. Part of it, I am sure, has to do with the fact that we are looking at this new place (it doesn't matter if its rural or just another city really) with the eyes of our old place. Every thing we see here is judged with the tools we used to function in our old environment. The fact could be, that with each new environment, you need to develop new eyes in which to see it.
It is an adventure, which is what we wanted. It is turning out to be pretty painful for this 40 something, but I attribute that to the fact I was becoming too set in my old ways. Growth is painful.
I think for the kids this will be a great experience, and will better set them up for the vicissitudes that lay before them in life.
Relocating involves grieving. It takes time to get to acceptance, and one can't simply skip all the hard steps and get directly to that state of mind.
I think one point I would like to make for the other parties of interest here is this: One thing I unconsciously thought was that I would be the same person throughout this move. Quite simply, I was just taking me and plunking it down in a new location. The reality is, a large part of us is bound up with our particular environment. I can't pinpoint the exact areas of my psyche that environment affects, but it does. When you move to a new location, there becomes a gap, or rather many gaps, that will eventually be filled in over time in the new environment. But, until these get filled in, you become stuck in a bit of a limbo that can be quite painful to endure. Some may label this all under the heading "homesickness," but it's a bit more existential than that. It's downright scary at times. In a way, though, its exactly what I wanted to happen. It's just a bit difficult now!
Anyway, be forewarned any of you adventurous sorts out there who are considering a move a bit later in life.
The only way out is through, as Bob Frost said.
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I've learned that life is full of compromises. I like some things about city living and I like some things about country living.
We live on a lake and am less than 10 minutes from a couple of okay grocery stores. Aldi, Walmart, & a few restaurants are 15 minutes away. Airport is about 33 minutes and downtown big city is 38 minutes according to Google maps.
It's rural, but close enough to the things we need. I really enjoy living close to nature, seeing wild animals and farmland is calming & makes me happy. Traffic & crowds tend to stress me out. This place seems like a good compromise between rural & city living for us.
Perfect description. Similar motivations for DW and I.
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Thanks Noodle,
I agree with your experienced-based thoughts. The early stages of relocation (4-8months as you say) can be rough. Novelty has worn off and reality has set it in. I appreciate your comments on the negative feedback cycle. I think, indeed, we are somewhere in that loop. Part of it, I am sure, has to do with the fact that we are looking at this new place (it doesn't matter if its rural or just another city really) with the eyes of our old place. Every thing we see here is judged with the tools we used to function in our old environment. The fact could be, that with each new environment, you need to develop new eyes in which to see it.
It is an adventure, which is what we wanted. It is turning out to be pretty painful for this 40 something, but I attribute that to the fact I was becoming too set in my old ways. Growth is painful.
I think for the kids this will be a great experience, and will better set them up for the vicissitudes that lay before them in life.
Relocating involves grieving. It takes time to get to acceptance, and one can't simply skip all the hard steps and get directly to that state of mind.
I think one point I would like to make for the other parties of interest here is this: One thing I unconsciously thought was that I would be the same person throughout this move. Quite simply, I was just taking me and plunking it down in a new location. The reality is, a large part of us is bound up with our particular environment. I can't pinpoint the exact areas of my psyche that environment affects, but it does. When you move to a new location, there becomes a gap, or rather many gaps, that will eventually be filled in over time in the new environment. But, until these get filled in, you become stuck in a bit of a limbo that can be quite painful to endure. Some may label this all under the heading "homesickness," but it's a bit more existential than that. It's downright scary at times. In a way, though, its exactly what I wanted to happen. It's just a bit difficult now!
Anyway, be forewarned any of you adventurous sorts out there who are considering a move a bit later in life.
The only way out is through, as Bob Frost said.
Have you made friends in the new location? That can make a HUGE difference, especially if you feel isolated or bored. If you knew the locals and were going to bonfires and cookouts every couple of days would that change your opinion? Because that takes time to develop. The cost of groceries is likely irrelevant, because the extra $100 in groceries a month is probably offset by moving costs.
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We recently moved to a more rural setting. Mid life crisis. We have 2 kids (13, 9) that have adjusted pretty well so far.
Although being near nature certainly has its benefits, we are finding many of the unforeseen aspects of living 10mins outside a small town (25k) is not sustainable, nor MMM-compliant.
The driving, the hassle of not having easy access to stores, the expense of the local grocery store (whole foods was much cheaper) and the lack of connections are killing us.
The schools are very good, but that is not a big enough reason to deal with the downsides.
Anyone been through this? Has anyone moved back because of this?
I know we will lose some money selling our house and moving back to our original "home"town, but we are seriously considering doing it. We had a fairly decent FIRE plan in place there. That is now in limbo given our situation here. I want to move back and into less of a house to make up for the decision we've made to move out here.
Help :-)
My family moved from Portland, OR to a rural area nearby when I was 7. My spouse had a similar experience. My spouse and I both left rural life at age 18 and have been dedicated city dwellers ever since.
Although my dad still owns the 45 acres of forest land, house and buildings that I grew up on, he now lives in a retirement community in a nearby college town. My siblings and I share and manage his house/property. Less than an hour from the city. Best of both worlds. My spouse's parent still own the 5 acres in wine country that she grew up on (70 miles from Portland). We visit often, but are not tempted to leave Portland.
I find it more enjoyable to live in the city and visit natural areas than to do the reverse. Especially where we now live: a short walk to a large park in Portland, and less than an hour from the Cascade mountains and the Pacific ocean.
Where I grew up, if you needed groceries, it was a 20 mile, 30+ minute round trip. School bus rides were an hour each way. I got my drivers' license and bought a car (aka freedom and social opportunity) when I turned 16, but car payments, insurance and gas consumed most of my budget.
I still get the romance and appeal of rural life. But sometimes you have to experience the realities of it to know whether it is a good fit. The same is true of expat life, van life, sailing, perpetual travel or other experiences. If you hear the siren call, try it and enjoy it. But don't be discouraged if it doesn't work out long term. In the long run, life's experimental "failures" can add more joy, wisdom and memories than what seemed like safe "success" in real time.
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I'm thinking this is a common adjustment issue.
See, the expat curve:
https://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/ae/china-videos/watch-expat-curve-coping-phases-living-abroad/ (https://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/ae/china-videos/watch-expat-curve-coping-phases-living-abroad/)
I would give it some more time and look for the root cause of your dissatisfaction. Else you limit yourself to living only in the place you're already used to. For me the main issue is the feeling of powerlessness. Things that I could easily do at home now require effort and nothing is like what I'm used to. The answer if you want to make it there is that you need to become local. Live, eat and work like them and build a social circle.
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I wonder if there’s a happy medium. My husband grew up in a small rural city, where a 5-minute drive in any direction outside city limits places you in farmland. But it’s large enough to have multiple grocery stores (including an Aldi) and lots of social and volunteer groups (my FIL is very involved in Rotary). A rural university town may also give you the best of both worlds.
This is the dynamic my family enjoys currently. We lived "in the city" for almost 10 years prior to deciding to move to a more rural part of the same county. We built our house on a large piece of farmland that feels like it's in the middle of nowhere, but in reality we are 5-10 minutes from stores, restaurants, etc. So we get to enjoy the peace and quiet of being away from the noise and congestion of the city, but still being close enough to civilization to be convenient for groceries, dining, and recreation.
On the work from home front...I'm a little confused why working from home in the city and working from home in the country would be vastly different. Isn't working from home the same regardless of where the home is located? You're still going to be in your home, at a desk or in a work space, on a computer...right?
Same, outside of college in Columbia, Missouri I lived in Saint Louis, Pittsburgh, and Orlando. While certainly not booming metropolis' they are definitely good sized cities. We moved to Northwest Arkansas about 7 years ago and certainly thought it was going to be a 3-5 year thing and we'd be off, well we were right about my job only lasting 5 years, I got an excellent offer from a consulting company, but instead of moving we asked that I could remain remote and we decided we wanted to stay here. It's getting larger, about 500k now, but it has basically everything we want outside of professional sports. It's close to a university, so it's not overly conservative like most of the mid south, it has very good public schools (compared to Saint Louis and Orlando), has a good beer scene, great outdoors (mountain biking, hiking, rivers, lakes), which we are really into, etc. Plus because of the uni and large companies here there are a lot of other transplants, which make you feel not as isolated as some cities like STL and Pitt, where it seemed everyone you met was from there and had groups of friends from the time they were 8.
I don't know about extremely rural, but I've really grown to enjoy small metro (~100th largest in US size).
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I love the rural life and location and would like to be even more remote. It's not for everybody.
Wish all those city folks would quit building houses out here in the country and stay in town.
When the leaves are on I can't see a single neighbors house from our house. We can open burn and have campfires, pee anywhere you want, shoot firearms, hunt, fish & forage, play around on the tractors, ride ATV's all over the place (on roads too), have a big garden, build stuff without permits, and generally do about anything we want.
Regarding stores, all we really need is a grocery, lumber yard, hardware, liquor, farm store and someplace to buy fuel, those are all within a 20 minute drive. Just about anything else can be purchased online and delivered. Don't really care much about entertainment or fine dining. If my kids were still in school, having them in a rural school would be reason enough to stay. Schools in the bigger communities are getting pretty bad.
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I consider bicycle distance to be the right distance from town. The drive into town to shop is nothing but the mileage still makes for a good bike ride. People's properties are bigger. More trees and greenery. Still a ton of nature around. It actually gets dark at night. Quiet most of the time.
We can play with all our toys - like Fishindude said - even on the roads. All sorts of animal noises, deer in the front yard each week, amazing sunsets, and plenty of room to build a project without a power tool disturbing anyone. People come to our part of the world to vacation and explore and we get to live here all the time. Small but growing town. The state university here is what helps make the town a nice place to live. Plenty of varied ideas about everything. A good beer scene with several local brews to drink. Local vineyards to enjoy. Plenty of events to attend - music, food, stage, etc.
Living in the city - well, its different. its been long enough that it doesn't hold much appeal anymore. I remember needing to lock up everything constantly - especially tools b/c if I ran inside for a bathroom break, there was a chance some dude would come along and grab something. Living in the city could feel so "out there". Privacy and space are not guarantees.
I remember carefully picking times when I could be noisy so I didn't disturb the people who lived a driveway's width away. I remember those people who didn't care that they lived in close quarters and would roar past in a noisy car, noisy scooter/motorcycle or with the thumping stereo. I don't like the average person enough to live that close to them.
We love to visit the city. We do discuss living like that. No point in owning a nice vehicle that gets parked at the curb all the time. Depending on how close the living arrangements are - it might be that we'd always want to be out somewhere to escape our little apartment. I lived like that in the military and for me it was expensive. To sit in a cafe or bar, something needs to be purchased. To be away from home all day or all evening, usually food is purchased, food and/or tickets. Eventually the luster of going out wears off and then I'm stuck at home in a place I don't like without enough space.
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It actually gets dark at night. Quiet most of the time.
YES! It gets dark and there are fireflies. You can see the Milky Way. And so blessedly quiet. No freeway hum in the background, No jets zooming over every 5 minutes. No ambient anxiety over crime (with it's constant awareness of locking up). My little town is never on the national evening news because a heinous crime of violence was committed here. Can't say the same for my previous hometown.
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but honestly if you have to get into the car every damn time to do that it really is a pain in the ass. I am with you. Move.
I have to do this even living in town since I'm not near the urban center, which is about 2 miles to the get to the closest restaurants, and double that to get to some other popular places.
Dude - 2 miles is walking distance.
LOL. That's just to the nearest restaurant, one way. I never see people walking on that route except for exercise and walking their dogs. Work is 4 mile round trip as well. And I'm not going to waste all that extra time walking in summer heat or winter cold, and we often have rain as well. And carrying groceries nearly 4 miles isn't going to happen, either. So the bottom line is that I am using the car every time I need to go somewhere, despite living in city limits. It's well worth it to me - I don't mind using the car - that's what I bought it for, and I still have an 80% savings rate. I use the bike for recreational exercise during the summer months when it's OK that I sweat because I'm not going anywhere.
I use my bike for getting groceries year round. The closest grocery store is about two or three miles, but I like the produce better at the store six miles away. We also have rain (and snow) here in Canada. It's great exercise, and you're not needlessly contributing to the environmental damage that goes along with driving.
Saying 'I still have an 80% savings rate' isn't really a great argument for clown car usage. By the same logic, you could justify any purchase if you're making a large enough salary.
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Moving is hard. It has always taken me about a year to feel settled into a new place.
If there was some reason why you thought moving to the country would be great, I'd give it some time and see if you adapt.
In terms of running errands, I'd suggest consolidating them and doing an errand run once/week, and then a less frequent run to wherever is the Big Place.
I live in a small urban-ish Rust Belt area, and because I don't drive, most of our errands are Saturday morning. About once/season we head to the Big City which is an hour away, and go to "fancier places" like Trader Joes and Penzeys. We keep a running a list of stuff we want to restock.
I don't really enjoy shopping, so I'm happy not to do it too often.
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I don't really enjoy shopping, so I'm happy not to do it too often.
Amen!