Reference checks - seeking HR, hiring manager, other job searchers' opinions

[free_fries]

Scenario A - Extend verbal offer to employee (pending background/check reference), negotiations, employee verbally accepts, conduct background/check reference, extend formal offer upon satisfactory background/reference check
Scenario B - Request references/background information from employee, background/check reference, then extend offer

I'm used to Scenario A but currently in a Scenario B for the first time. I get the logic from an employer's perspective but it kinda bugs me for the following reasons -
1) The form email going out to my five references states they will need to complete a "short survey (less than 30 questions)".  This survey is 29 radio button questions then two free-text questions.  That's 31 questions!
2) 27 of the 29 questions are not Yes or No questions (the last two are).  The reference is asked to describe the extent to which s/he feel candidate uses these skills, compared to others in the workplace on a scale of 1-7.  I'm not worried about my skills and performance but it seems weird that they are supposed to compare me to my teammates for nearly every question.
3) Then the reference is asked to list top three weaknesses and strengthens.  I can guess what will be said and I'm fine with it - just seems like references are in for 20+ mins at this point.
4) I don't love that my references' time will be wasted if I don't get an offer or get one and don't accept.

Is this a trend now? Last time (4 years ago) I did not have to provide references until after I verbally accepted an offer.  Now this employer wants references pre-offer and a recruiting firm I'm working with wants to do a reference check before I even interview with any of their clients.  I can rotate between a few former colleagues but you always need former supervisor. I don't want to run down my former manager's goodwill if I keep interviewing.

I think I'm also bothered because I'm worried about the offer (if I get one).  Compensation was briefly discussed in the beginning.  HR mentioned was $60-65k salary + solid benefits. My most recent job was $83k base + $13k OT + great benefits.  I was honest in this first phone call and said the compensation was too low. I said I was looking for a salary "in the $80s". I believe I said $85k.  I'm fine with the trade-off of better hours (this FTE role is slated at 37.5 hours a week and the incumbent said that's on target) for lower overall pay but Payscale, Salary.com and Glassdoor all say $65k under market for this role and geography. 

Anyway after that call, I got an email asking me to do an in-person interview and the recruiter said this "I also know we had discussed starting pay and am pleased to say that we should be able to get closer to the starting pay you had requested, than previously discussed." It felt inelegant to reply asking "well how close?" so I decided to go on with the process since I felt I was upfront about what I was looking for and I've heard good things about the employer.

My friend says this reference check then offer process gives me an advantage.  "They won't want to lose you over a few thousand after putting in all this time"  I'm not so sure since no one from their side is calling and talking to references.  They just have to read the aggregated survey results - not a huge time sink. 

Ok that was a lot - would be interested to hear others' experience in this element of the job/candidate search. My position was eliminated and I'm just getting back into job search mode so I want to make sure I'm not caught off guard again.

[Sibley]

Have you read Ask a Manager at all? If not, you should.

Based on my reading of her blog, and my experience - that reference process is terrible. And if the salary isn't going to be in your range, and you know it, and they're not going to raise it, then you should probably bow out. But go read Ask A Manager.

[gooki]

I've had recuiters ask for reference details prior to salary negotiations. I've always politely refused, and they have always been understanding, and worked with my requirements.

PS the reference check process you describe is super crap. What's stopping you providing five fake email addresses and completing the surveys yourself?

[Monkey Uncle]

As a hiring manager, I wouldn't even think of extending an offer without checking references first.  The reference check is probably the most valuable part of the hiring process, from my perspective.  People can look great on paper, but I can usually get a sense of where the skeletons are hidden by talking with current/former supervisors, subordinates, and peers.

But I agree that the reference process you describe is ridiculous.  A game of 20 (or 29) questions via electronic survey is pretty much guaranteed to waste the references' time while simultaneously producing no useful information.  If at all possible, I call and speak to references in real time.  I don't want to give them too much time to compose politically correct answers to the questions, and the back-and-forth conversation allows an opportunity to probe a little deeper if necessary.  I find I can usually get by with three references, though, as long as at least one of them is a current or recent former supervisor.  Quality over quantity.

[asauer]

As an HR professional, it's pretty common to ask for references before an offer, but I've never heard of someone contacting them before the second interview.  Often, it takes forever to get references to reply and I wouldn't want to hold up someone's offer because we're waiting on references. 

Though as a side note, I convinced my company to stop doing reference checking at all.  It's incredibly time consuming (even in that crappy survey format) and is one of, if not the least reliable selection method known to man other than throwing darts. 

[Jouer]

As a statistician, the fact that anyone is using results from 5 surveys comprised of mostly scale questions to make decisions hurts my feelings.

[ShortInSeattle]

References are pretty useless IMO. (Former recruiter here) Negative references are rare and not terribly reliable.

Both processes you describe are within the industry standard though.

I'm old and jaded and FI, but if I were applying to a job and they wanted a reference I'd tell them that I'd be happy to provide one as a last-step when we had mutually agreed to work together. My references' time is valuable and I won't be bothering them until I have an offer in hand.

But HR people are rule-followers. You might lose out on a job if they think you are difficult. So it's a tough situation.

SIS

[free_fries]

And if the salary isn't going to be in your range, and you know it, and they're not going to raise it, then you should probably bow out. But go read Ask A Manager.

Re: the salary.  That's the thing I don't know.  She said "...should be able to get closer to the starting pay you had requested, than previously discussed." So they can do more than $65k but I don't know how much more? For some additional context, the HR person said on the phone "you're the first candidate we're speaking with....we're just starting our recruiting so we're not totally sure what the compensation will be" and then threw out $65k.   That she hadn't due diligence and prepared a reasonable estimate before calling applicants made my jaw drop.  I mean you have an incumbent in the role, start there. Not to mention all the reports/resources out on the internet.  That was a red flag but this is solid organization I've worked with in the past so I think it's more a lackluster HR person than institutional issue.

Thanks for AAM tip!  Lots of good stuff. On references though, she creeped me out a bit with her recommendation that potential employers call people NOT offered by the candidate and/or push on people to violate their companies HR policies.

I've had recuiters ask for reference details prior to salary negotiations. I've always politely refused, and they have always been understanding, and worked with my requirements.

PS the reference check process you describe is super crap. What's stopping you providing five fake email addresses and completing the surveys yourself?

To your first statement, damn I should have thought of that but as someone mentioned below - don't want to be the "high maintenance, difficult" candidate.

Ha good point to your second! I mean all the people I'm using are on LinkedIn with companies/job titles that match but how does the 3rd party know the Gmail address my former manager wants me to use is actually him? 

But I agree that the reference process you describe is ridiculous.  A game of 20 (or 29) questions via electronic survey is pretty much guaranteed to waste the references' time while simultaneously producing no useful information. 

That's what I'm saying!

[free_fries]

As an HR professional, it's pretty common to ask for references before an offer, but I've never heard of someone contacting them before the second interview.  Often, it takes forever to get references to reply and I wouldn't want to hold up someone's offer because we're waiting on references. 

Right I have no issue providing references early in the process.  It's the contacting them without me having an offer or an indication one is being prepared. 

Also I see my original post isn't clear but I wasn't asked for references until after my final interview. Compensation hasn't been discussed since that first phone call.  And since there was a gap, I was hoping we'd circle back to the topic before heading into bg/reference check zone.  Once again when you assume....

As a statistician, the fact that anyone is using results from 5 surveys comprised of mostly scale questions to make decisions hurts my feelings.

No kidding!

I'd tell them that I'd be happy to provide [a reference] as a last-step when we had mutually agreed to work together. My references' time is valuable and I won't be bothering them until I have an offer in hand.

But HR people are rule-followers. You might lose out on a job if they think you are difficult. So it's a tough situation.

SIS

Yeah lesson learned!  If this job doesn't work out, I will do this next time. 

[Josiecat]

Yes, I can understand your frustration.  No one wants their references bothered unless there is a serious offer in play.

[asauer]

As a statistician, the fact that anyone is using results from 5 surveys comprised of mostly scale questions to make decisions hurts my feelings.

Ugh!  Agree!  My specialty is program evaluation and I cringe at 5-point scales (especially when unanchored).  Bleh.

[free_fries]

And it continues!  Today I met with an executive recruiter and her client doesn't even want to interview people until they have had their references checked. I get it - you're paying for a recruiter, you don't want an offer to fall apart after the interview process. Still top candidates are likely getting a lot of interviews, references' enthusiasm might dampen after several in a short period of time. 

I tried to push back and offered my former employer's HR line which confirms start/end date and eligible for rehire to show I left under good terms.  The best I was able to negotiate that they'll do a phone interview and if we agree to meet in person, then I will release my reference info.  Sheesh!

[dogboyslim]

Reference checks are worthless IMO.  Most are the HR policy "yes they worked here from x to y and ending salary is confirmed."  Anyone I've ever called has only sung the praises of the employee.  I work in a small industry, so I instead find someone that works at the company they are coming from and ask their opinion of the employee. (I only do this with people I trust not to reveal the question and I have a reciprocal arrangement with some of the other hiring managers in those companies).  Anyway, I get a more accurate perspective IMO.  There is still bias.

The best approach for me is to do adequate interviews and skills assessments.  Someone who has never written a SQL statement in their life can probably talk through a process, but if I set-up a quick relational table structure with a few variables and ask them to write the code to create a simple report, I get through the BS.  Have a few folks on the staff interview them as well and I get good feedback about how people would feel working with them.

This process has worked very well for me in building the skill and team performance of my employee group.

[iknowiyam]

As a statistician, the fact that anyone is using results from 5 surveys comprised of mostly scale questions to make decisions hurts my feelings.

Ugh!  Agree!  My specialty is program evaluation and I cringe at 5-point scales (especially when unanchored).  Bleh.

I filled out a reference for a former co-worker recently. I ignored the "compared to others" part and just rated each item as a typical 1 to 5 scale. Also, I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this is a waste of everyone's time.

[Need2Save]

Another HR Professional here.  We do 'ask' for references with the application but we never contact them unless we are really close to making an offer.  We always check first with the candidate to make sure the references are still okay to be contacted.  You know, in case they forget to tell old Boss Tim that you put his name and number down. He has about 5 minutes to shoot Tim an email as an FYI... This also is their clue that as long as the reference calls go okay - they are going to get an offer from us. 

That said, in my experience the work references are a total waste of time.  People only put down the folks they know will say nice things about them.  Therefore, you self-select your best feedback and leave out the bosses and coworkers that you didn't get along with or pissed off along the way.  It's not valuable at all.  A thorough interview with the right set of questions will be far more revealing.  I think 20-30 years ago, times were different.  Now former managers and HR professionals are scared of the lawsuits for defaming you if they are honest that you are a big slacker and you are late all the time to work, and miss deadlines, and can't get along with anyone else in the company for more than a week.  You can tell in the first three minutes if you are going to get honest feedback from the person or not.

The robo-references you are talking about are terrible and a waste of time.  Did you say what kind of industry you work in?  Those folks should seriously re-think thier strategy. What a waste of time and totally annoying. 

The last time I personally used professional references (ten years ago) - I sent each person a very nice thank you note and a personalized (but inexpensive) thank you gift as a gesture that I know they are busy people and taking ten minutes out of their day to talk nice about me to someone they will never meet was very much appreciated.   Just saying, a simple email message to let them know you did or did not get the job would be appreciated in today's world and many people don't even do that. 

[Monkey Uncle]

I have to respectfully disagree with the folks who are saying that reference checks are of no value to the hiring manager.  Either you aren't talking to the right people, or you aren't asking the right questions.

Don't just accept the hand-picked friends that the applicant offers up.  Specify in the job announcement your minimum number of references, and that at least one of them needs to be a current or recent former supervisor, at least one needs to be a professional peer, and, if they're applying for a supervisory position, at least one of them needs to be someone they supervised.  If the supervisor they offer doesn't seem to be very helpful, ask the applicant if you can contact another past supervisor.  Don't bother contacting someone who hasn't worked closely with the applicant within the last few years.

I typically ask a few questions that are related to the technical aspects of the job, just to make sure the applicant isn't telling bald-faced lies on their resume.  But the bulk of the questions should be focused on the personality traits that are important for the job, e.g., does he play well with others, describe his interpersonal communication skills, how does he react to stressful situations, etc.  And I always point-blank ask the supervisor if the applicant had any performance or disciplinary problems. 

References will not give a blatantly negative response - "this person is an asshole; I hope he never gets another job again."  It would be nice if they were that forthright, but you have to listen carefully to their choice of words, tone of voice, and the pauses they make as they're trying to find a diplomatic way to say that Mr. Applicant didn't get along with his peers.  In general, people are not sociopaths, so typically references are not going to out-and-out lie to you to cover up issues.  They want to be helpful; you just have to steer the conversation in the right direction and learn to read between the lines.  It is much easier to get the information you need if you cold-call the references and ask the questions without giving them time to reflect and compose a diplomatic answer.  I've found that even people the applicant thinks are his best friends will spill the beans on weaknesses when they are engaged in back-and-forth conversation.

Yes, all of this takes a lot of time and effort.  But you're about to make potentially a multi-year commitment to a new hire.  Your life as a supervisor will be difficult indeed if you make a poor selection.  Isn't it worthwhile to get as much information as you can from the people who know how Mr. Applicant operates in a professional setting?

[BlueHouse]

I would say something along the lines of:  "let's make sure this is something we both want to proceed with before we pull anyone else into it".

[free_fries]

Compensation was briefly discussed in the beginning.  HR mentioned was $60-65k salary + solid benefits. My most recent job was $83k base + $13k OT + great benefits.  I was honest in this first phone call and said the compensation was too low. I said I was looking for a salary "in the $80s". I believe I said $85k.  I'm fine with the trade-off of better hours (this FTE role is slated at 37.5 hours a week and the incumbent said that's on target) for lower overall pay but Payscale, Salary.com and Glassdoor all say $65k under market for this role and geography. 

So I got an email offer of $80k (37.5 hour work week) plus a one-page sumamry of their benefits.
- 403b (I can contribute immediately but the employer match 50% of employee contribution up to 3% of pay however doesn't kick in until one year anniversary);
- 100% premium for HDHP plan + generous contribution to HSA.  Dental and vision plans are listed too but no info on those premiums;
- Subsidized transit pass ($15 monthly cost to employee for unlimited use);
- 13 vacation days, 12 sick days, holidays

Not a bad offer overall but I'd like more a bit more in terms of salary and vacation.  I assume the 403b terms can't be adjusted right?  Otherwise I'd love to get a match sooner.

I have a phone call with the HR manager on Monday to discuss. Any advice - well a script - to politely ask for more without alienating her? I want $85k so should I ask for $90k? What's the best rationale?  The market angle? Glassdoor puts average salaries for this role in my city at $93k.  My experience/MBA/past compensation?   

Same question for vacation - what's the best rationale to put forward asking for more?

Oh I am female which sadly is a factor for this situation.

Thanks!

[TabbyCat]

Not to hijack the thread, but how do you handle this when you haven't jumped around a lot and don't want current coworkers to know you are seriously looking? I've only worked two major jobs, one in my industry - all my best references are at the current role. If a job was really a nearly done deal, I have a few people I would pull aside and ask about being a reference, but no way would I use them on multiple applications just in case I got picked.

[Monkey Uncle]

Compensation was briefly discussed in the beginning.  HR mentioned was $60-65k salary + solid benefits. My most recent job was $83k base + $13k OT + great benefits.  I was honest in this first phone call and said the compensation was too low. I said I was looking for a salary "in the $80s". I believe I said $85k.  I'm fine with the trade-off of better hours (this FTE role is slated at 37.5 hours a week and the incumbent said that's on target) for lower overall pay but Payscale, Salary.com and Glassdoor all say $65k under market for this role and geography. 

So I got an email offer of $80k (37.5 hour work week) plus a one-page sumamry of their benefits.
- 403b (I can contribute immediately but the employer match 50% of employee contribution up to 3% of pay however doesn't kick in until one year anniversary);
- 100% premium for HDHP plan + generous contribution to HSA.  Dental and vision plans are listed too but no info on those premiums;
- Subsidized transit pass ($15 monthly cost to employee for unlimited use);
- 13 vacation days, 12 sick days, holidays

Not a bad offer overall but I'd like more a bit more in terms of salary and vacation.  I assume the 403b terms can't be adjusted right?  Otherwise I'd love to get a match sooner.

I have a phone call with the HR manager on Monday to discuss. Any advice - well a script - to politely ask for more without alienating her? I want $85k so should I ask for $90k? What's the best rationale?  The market angle? Glassdoor puts average salaries for this role in my city at $93k.  My experience/MBA/past compensation?   

Same question for vacation - what's the best rationale to put forward asking for more?

Oh I am female which sadly is a factor for this situation.

Thanks!

80k for less than full time work sounds pretty sweet to me.  In my field, most people with salaries in that range are working 40 hrs plus some unpaid overtime every week.  But I don't know what's considered normal in your field.  If you really think you're worth more, you can always ask and back it up with the research that you've done.  But prior to that conversation, you need to decide what you're going to do if they don't budge.  It comes down to how badly you want the job.

I'm not sure how to advise you on the vacation thing.  Everywhere I've ever worked, everyone earns the same vacation amount based on time served; no negotiation.  But if you think there's room to negotiate it doesn't hurt to ask, "is it possible I could start out earning a little more vacation time?"

The 50% 403b matching seems chintzy to me, but the free health insurance probably more than makes up for it.

And I have to ask, what does being female have to do with it?  I work in the government sector, where the glass ceiling was broken decades ago.  Are there really still private companies that discriminate against women?  How do they get away with it?

[Monkey Uncle]

Not to hijack the thread, but how do you handle this when you haven't jumped around a lot and don't want current coworkers to know you are seriously looking? I've only worked two major jobs, one in my industry - all my best references are at the current role. If a job was really a nearly done deal, I have a few people I would pull aside and ask about being a reference, but no way would I use them on multiple applications just in case I got picked.

You're going to have to suck it up and find a couple of peers you trust not to tell anyone that you're looking.  Also, do you regularly interact with any colleagues who are employed by another company?  Someone like that might be a good reference.  And you really should be prepared to allow a prospective employer to contact your current supervisor once you get to the provisional offer stage.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

Hi - you need to understand and truly believe you are in a great negotiating position.

My script would be

You were really impressed with the people/job and can see yourself working there.

Be clear and tell them your exact current salary and value of benefits.

Reiterate how much you like the job, however you are not looking to take a pay cut. your reasearch stated the industry norm as  x.

Then ask if they can negotiate - salary first,  then other financial benefits  then holiday.

So you've indicated your enthusiasm for the role, mention you can hit the ground running but don't want to lose out financially. Give them time to come back to you.

And for what it's worth,  I also think females are treated unfairly when negotiating - men are seen as strong leaders, women get labeled as bossy and aggressive.  It's an unfair unconcious bias very prevalent in the business world.

[ender]

Last time I needed references I gave them for people I had worked with at previous positions.

[Need2Save]

free_fries - It truly breaks my heart as a female executive that you feel being a woman effects your ability to negotiate a fair offer.  If you don't naturally come by this confidence, then you'll have to trick yourself into it to get what you want.  Avoid wishy words such as "I think" and "I hope" and be very direct with your requests. Use words with strength such as "I need."  A lot of women are helped by scripting out what they plan to say and practicing it a few times if you are not comfortable with these kinds of discussions.

I would recommend something like:
"I appreciate the offer for the (X Job Title) and have been carefully reviewing the financial aspects, including the benefit summary.  There are certainly attractive aspects about the opportunity which I am taking under serious consideration.  (mention one positive thing about the job here which really appeals to you).  To make the offer work for me financially, however, I need a base salary which is closer to my target in the mid-80s and would like to ask if the Company can provide me additional leave time, say an additional 5 vacation days.  I'd really like this to work out for both of us.  Will the Company take these requests under consideration?"

I would only 'explain' the requests if pressed for a reason.  You don't have to qualify the desire to make more money or have more paid-leave.  If pressed, I would say "An individual with my experience and education level, should be making between $85 and $93k for this (town/city).  I consider less than $85k a low offer in conjunction with the benefits package."  (don't mention where you got your range source information - recruiters hate hearing about Salary.com - they pay for other survey data they deem to be more reliable and scientific).

Key Points:
If you already said mid-80s was your desired salary, if you come back with "now I need 90" that's really in poor taste. 
Don't just ask for more leave time - be specific on the number of days you require to be satisfied, otherwise they will likely just say it can't be negotiated.
Highly unlikely they can make exceptions for you on the 403B provisions so you can mention it as a factor, but I wouldn't bother asking if they can change it for you. 

Hopefully, the HR manager will tell you that he/she will have to discuss the request internally and get back to you.  If the conversation ends with, "we can't negotiate any further on these 2 areas and this is our final offer" then, I would ask for a couple days to think it over and get back to them with your decision.  Maybe in a day or two, the answer may change? 

[mozar]

Do you have any other offers OP? That always helps and if you could get an offer for $80k, maybe there are other companies hiring so you can play them against each other.
Companies that do ask me for references have always asked for them even before the interview. I have a couple people who are always willing to answer a phone call. But in my 8 years in my current career, I have never had a reference called. This last go round no one asked me for references at all. I think people are realizing that talking to references is a waste of time.

I never really understood calling references in the first place. I've worked with so many difficult people. Your ability to work with someone really just depends on your own personality. I can find somebody awful to work with, but if they suck up to the boss, they're gonna get a good reference from the boss. If they gave someone my number, I just wouldn't answer the phone. I once worked with a woman that everyone hated, including the boss. He gave her a glowing recommendation just to get rid of her.
I once helped the HR team with calling references. One person was surprisingly negative. I didn't put any of it down. Because what difference does it make?

My last go round when they presented their offer I said I want x. They said no. I said "your offer isn't competitive with my other offers" and then let it sit for a couple of days. They came back and they said they could do it. I had no other offers, although I was interviewing a lot. I am a woman too. I almost shat myself when I sent that email. But I'm sure glad I did.

Be willing to walk away, and ask for 86k

[Jouer]

If it helps, I've tried strong negotiations twice in my career.

The first time the firm wasn't willing to negotiate because my ask was above more senior people than me. But I took their offer because I wanted to work there - one of the partners in the firm was someone I wanted to learn from. 6 months later they gave me what I wanted.

The second firm gave me what I wanted monetarily. They had called me and the only way I was leaving my current job was if I got a great offer. I tried negotiating vacation time as well but they were not able to negotiate that part. But they didn't mind that I tried.

In short: never be afraid to be a strong negotiator.

[free_fries]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts and advice!

dreams_and_discoveries, CaptainBenefits, mozar, and Jouer - BIG thanks on providing wording and past experiences!  I hated it but I survived :)  I had a call with an HR manager this afternoon and got an email about an hour and a half later with a bump to $86k. Good lesson too - that's not an insignificant amount to leave on the table! They didn't budge on the vacation but the extra $6k makes up for that. 

Funnily enough in that hour and a half between the call and email I got a "thanks but no thanks" email from other place.  Glad I didn't see it until after the 2nd one was in!

Tomorrow I'll accept.  First day would be April 25th - better make the most of my remaining funemployment.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

Great to hear free_fries - what a great bump, all just for making the uncomfortable request.