Author Topic: Reddit /r/financialindependence - Does anyone there ACTUALLY believe in FI?  (Read 22803 times)

iamlindoro

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I am a very casual redditor, and spend a little bit of my time over at http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence.  I chime in occasionally, such as on this thread where  a dad with shared custody of kids is trying to find out if he has any hope of FIRE... I dispense what I consider to be pretty "standard" advice for this forum (cut costs, don't have cable, don't pay for a high priced mobile carrier, etc.) with the occasional piece of less conventional wisdom (consider a retirement abroad to cut costs) and it seems like whenever I do, I'm almost immediately downvoted. 

Between that and some of the outrageous responses I see there sometimes (insisting that only a SWR of under 3% is possible, insane desired retirement amounts $10M+), I'm wondering... does anyone else hang out in that subreddit, and is there some aspect to their culture that is so different from ours that I'm missing?

https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/42ixdw/how_can_i_realistically_get_on_the_road_to_fi/

ETA: Thanks to (presumably) readers here for getting me out of the negatives ;)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:17:10 PM by iamlindoro »

woopwoop

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Reddit is a cesspool for most things, unfortunately. I made the mistake of subscribing to a few subs on topics that interested me and that I had some expertise in. Downvoted to hell for giving useful advice if it wasn't what the people wanted to hear. Good place for cute cat pictures, though.

Tyler

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I recently stumbled across this alternative sub that may be more up your alley:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

iamlindoro

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I recently stumbled across this alternative sub that may be more up your alley:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/
+1
From my very occasional and rare visiting to both I would say that r/FI is more like the boglehead forum ('I plan on retiring with 100K to spend annually') and r/leanfire is like MMM. Obviously I'm generalizing and many exceptions exist.
There shouldn't be such a divide because the theory and practices should relate to all, but it's true that folks making median wages or less and plan for a 1 million or less freedom fund target find it hard to relate to those making more and/or planning on retiring with more.

Good call, LeanFIRE probably is more up my alley.  I was aware of its existence but hadn't spent any time there.  Thanks for pointing me that direction.

I think the comparison to Bogleheads is also astute-- I see the same outsized budgets there.  Heck, I don't even think anyone here would consider our FIRE plans particularly "lean" (we'll stop somewhere between 4-5K a month in retirement income), but by Boglehead//r/FI standards, it's positively meager!  I guess perhaps the /r/FI community is more about the FI, and less about the RE.  I shudder to think of just how long it would take me to accumulate enough for a six figure annual retirement spend... and I make plenty!

randymarsh

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I haven't had the same experience on /r/FI but I think the comparison to bogleheads is warranted. Retiring at 55 with 10 million is cool I guess, but I'd rather retire at 35 with 2 million.

arebelspy

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The MMM draw to me was the middle path between ERE (too extreme for me) and Bogleheads/E-R.org (too ridiculous for me).

Leanfire seems more like the former, and FI seems more like the latter, with no "middle ground" place, necessarily.

Also leanfire has approximately zero activity.

Luckily there's these forums, so I feel no need to get anything surrounding FIRE from Reddit.
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Bertram

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Reddit is a cesspool for most things, unfortunately. I made the mistake of subscribing to a few subs on topics that interested me and that I had some expertise in. Downvoted to hell for giving useful advice if it wasn't what the people wanted to hear. Good place for cute cat pictures, though.

Well, what do you think would happen if you introduced voting here in this forum? ; )

Barely ever is the most correct/most valuable insight also the most popular - not even in this forum. And even if you find a community like that, it barely stays that way for long. I am sure users that have been here for years could tell you how this or that used to be better and has changed for the worse. There's a delicate line between a positive culture that assimilates those with different values and ideas, and one that falls prey to group think and ousting that which they don't know - on reddit and here as well.

I've learned plenty of things from good subreddits. But most of all I've learnt to not automatically trust what's popular and to always be critical and actively search out opposing viewpoints. Well, I haven't learned it there, but it's a good and rewarding place to apply it as any other. The less informed you are about a topic the more you'll learn. The more of an expert you are, the more important it will become to explain and convince people of why your opinion matters (other than saying you are an expert). I think whenever there are experts/correct opinions being down voted en masse, it always has to do with a lot of shorthand and handwaving that the expert can get away with when discussing with other experts - but not when discussing things with laymen.

soccerluvof4

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Thanks for the link to leanfire. In just doing an overview there are some good topics there BUT as arebelspy had noted if you look at the dates and numbers the traffic is very low. One can read into that as they want. I did see some names I notice as well on the threads there as well but I dont like the looks of the forums at all.

Bracken_Joy

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Glad for the leanFIRE link. My BIL has recently discovered the idea of FIRE, and he is a hardcore redditor. I've had the same concerns as mentioned here that /r/FinancialIndependence would squash his hopes for FIRE. Since it's the first drive toward a goal I have EVER seen him have, I really don't want to see that happen!

Geekenstein

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I think each of the sites mentioned has it's contributors that are closer to MMM - that middle ground.  I have seen threads here, like this one:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/not-enough/

.. that I think help identify where some of the differences come from.  People perceive and tolerate risk differently, so their perceptions about becoming FIRE also very widely. 

That said, someone who see's everything as a risk to FIRE and thus believes that no amount of money/cash flow is enough to FIRE is enough would not feel too comfortable here :)  Once enough if them gravitate to a particular forum, you get one that has that vibe.






soupcxan

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When I see someone planning to RE with <$1M and <30 years old in the US, I just wonder if they have considered:

  • Health insurance costs if the ACA changes
  • Healthcare costs out-of-pocket if a serious/chronic illness develops unexpectedly, even if you have insurance
  • Added costs from partner/kids, even if that is not wanted now, sometimes things change
  • Extended bear market (worse than 2001 or 2008) and/or high inflation (a la the 1970s)
  • Loss of human capital if you are out of the workforce 10 years and something hits the fan and you need to go back to work again...you are not going to get the same salary after being out of the market so long
  • Possibly living another +60 years...it's like someone in 1956 trying to plan a budget for life in 2016. Cell phone? What's a cell phone?

When I was 25, I thought I had the world 100% figured out and my plans were foolproof...turned out not to be so. Life happens.

Just because one guy did something once, at a particular point in time...does not mean you can replicate it with 100% guaranteed success in the future.

There are a lot of unknown unknowns. Maybe the Boglehead's $10M @55 is too conservative, but on the other hand $1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure. And while I may not care if I end up eating dog food, I certainly do care if my wife and kids do.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 02:31:39 PM by soupcxan »

iamlindoro

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When I see someone planning to RE with <$1M and <30 years old in the US, I just wonder if they have considered:

  • Health insurance costs if the ACA changes
  • Healthcare costs out-of-pocket if a serious illness develops unexpectedly, even if you have insurance
  • Added costs from partner/kids, even if that is not wanted now, sometimes things change
  • Extended bear market (worse than 2001 or 2008) and/or high inflation (a la the 1970s)
  • Loss of human capital if you are out of the workforce 10 years and something hits the fan and you need to go back to work again...you are not going to get the same salary after being out of the market so long
  • Possibly living another +60 years...it's like someone in 1956 trying to plan a budget for life in 2016. Cell phone? What's a cell phone?

There are a lot of unknown unknowns. Maybe the Boglehead's $10M @55 is too conservative, but on the other hand $1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure. And while I may not care if I end up eating dog food, I certainly do care if my wife and kids do.

While I agree that some of these are valid concerns (some are more far-fetched than others), I really believe that virtually everyone that has been in the MMM community for enough time preaches flexibility.  Personally, we'll be retiring with ~4-5K in monthly income, or roughly the equivalent of $1.25-1.5M in a 4% SWR portfolio.  That will be for two adults, plus 1-2 children long term (FIRE at age ~38-39).

Health Insurance/Health care costs are handled by our flexibility with regards to retirement location.  We want to live abroad anyway, but if we came back and the US healthcare system went further down the tubes, we'd move back overseas for expensive long-term treatments.

We're already building our costs for ourselves and our kids into the budget, but anyone who does a low-cost FIRE would of course need to adjust if someone new came into their lives.  That could be as simple as helping them on their own FIRE path, there's nothing that says you have to immediately absorb a significant other into your FIRE budget.

I am not too worried that things will get worse than 2008 (or the great depression), since the 4% SWR incorporates the worst historical data, and it would take a lot to beat that-- but if it did, we would again use the ability to go elsewhere to weather diminished returns.

Loss of human capital, I'll probably remain open to making a little money here and there to give us extra spending money, but then again, you only have to cover the shortfall between your FIRE income and whatever your costs are-- you may very well not need to make as much.

Living another 60 years:  That's a problem I hope to have!  I'll be retiring in what will feel to me like complete luxury.  I expect to continue to have small luxuries throughout my life.  But you know what?  If I miss out on some luxury because I bought the rest of my lifetime's worth of time by FIREing?  That's a good trade.

Anyway, just my personal chatter about how I would handle those kinds of things.  I think everyone should have answers to some of these items that give them comfort, and I think everyone should be prepared to be flexible when warranted.  I just don't think we should allow our human propensity to see the danger to diminish the time we spend in FIRE when that danger is relatively negligible.  As ever, it's about the individual's risk tolerance.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 02:56:49 PM by iamlindoro »

arebelspy

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$1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure.

Sure, if you have no flexibility, it does.

I'm not too worried, when we can do things like: Spend less. Earn more.

*, I can earn * tons more money. I can't earn more time.

Not worried at all about catastrophic failure. Not cause I don't think it can't happen, but because I have at least (literally) developed 5+ separate contingency plans for if it starts to head that way, and if it fully happens.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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Eric

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Reddit skews young.  If you're already focused on FI when you're young, chances are you make a good income.  If I made $100k+/yr when I was in my early 20s, I'd also think that amassing $3MM prior to quitting would be totally feasible and relatively easy to do.  Let's see how they feel in 10 years after the grind has worn them down.  (No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?)

That said, there are a lot of more MMM style voices on there too. 

StockBeard

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The MMM draw to me was the middle path between ERE (too extreme for me) and Bogleheads/E-R.org (too ridiculous for me).
+1, can totally relate.

Let's see how they feel in 10 years after the grind has worn them down.  (No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?)
Ha. I've had the same kind of bitterness towards some of my friends recently, who ask me "what the point" would be for them given that they love their jobs. "Your job can turn from your dream job to your worst nightmare within 6 month, I'm a good example of that", is what I told them. Forget about RE, they still don't get why it's important to plan for FI when you can afford to do it.

brooklynguy

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There are a lot of unknown unknowns. Maybe the Boglehead's $10M @55 is too conservative, but on the other hand $1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure.

And, on the other hand, every day of retirement-postponement entails the known known of another day of life spent not having commenced retirement.

*, I can earn * tons more money. I can't earn more time.

Just curious, what's with all the self-imposed profanity censorship lately (assuming those asterisks are in fact serving as visual bleeps; they confused me at first)?  Isn't this the site whose benefactor turned down wads of cash from a potential sponsor just to retain the right to swear with impunity?

Bracken_Joy

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There are a lot of unknown unknowns. Maybe the Boglehead's $10M @55 is too conservative, but on the other hand $1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure.

And, on the other hand, every day of retirement-postponement entails the known known of another day of life spent not having commenced retirement.

*, I can earn * tons more money. I can't earn more time.

Just curious, what's with all the self-imposed profanity censorship lately (assuming those asterisks are in fact serving as visual bleeps; they confused me at first)?  Isn't this the site whose benefactor turned down wads of cash from a potential sponsor just to retain the right to swear with impunity?

"Badassity" is, in fact, on the forum banner. =)

I'm curious about the self-censorship as well.

Helvegen

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Ha. I've had the same kind of bitterness towards some of my friends recently, who ask me "what the point" would be for them given that they love their jobs. "Your job can turn from your dream job to your worst nightmare within 6 month, I'm a good example of that", is what I told them. Forget about RE, they still don't get why it's important to plan for FI when you can afford to do it.

Don't even have to hate your job really to see the beauty of having some degree of FI. Think about just getting through another economic downturn with an unknown period of unemployment or underemployment.

iamlindoro

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Let's see how they feel in 10 years after the grind has worn them down.  (No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?)

In fairness to you, I don't think job fatigue makes you bitter!  I feel like I have a nice amount of flexibility in my work, I get paid well, I mostly work with people I like... I just have a long list of things I'd rather be doing!

arebelspy

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I post what I feel like--sometimes that means swearing, more often it means using a * asterisk.

:)

You may have noticed more lately because I've gone from rarely feeling like swearing to feeling like swearing but not full on?  I wonder if that's the case, and if so, why?

Thanks for pointing it out!  :)
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brooklynguy

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Thanks for pointing it out!  :)

My pleasure.  At first I thought they may be symbols denoting footnotes and thought to myself "so where the fuck are the footnotes?!" :)

dragoncar

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maco

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I'm on there. It does seem to lean more toward "increase your income" than "cut your spending" mentality, though.

Dances With Fire

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The MMM draw to me was the middle path between ERE (too extreme for me) and Bogleheads/E-R.org (too ridiculous for me).

Leanfire seems more like the former, and FI seems more like the latter, with no "middle ground" place, necessarily.

Also leanfire has approximately zero activity.

Luckily there's these forums, so I feel no need to get anything surrounding FIRE from Reddit.

^^^ +1 I too found the MMM community to be the "middle ground" for us. I'm past the ERE timeline and the DW wouldn't be comfortable with it. I have also been on Bogleheads for many years. (Many Doctors and well paid engineers are members there and many of their salaries and lifestyles don't always reflect our frugal way of life...

The open minded community here is what keeps me interested and I enjoy the personal success stories and less on the "numbers."

Fastfwd

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I read both and like the different opinions on reddit. Just like the news it's better to get it from different sources so you don't end up stuck with static ideas within your internet bubble.

I don't like how reddit FI has banned most top level posts and is instead encouraging most things to do to the daily thread.

There are pros and cons to both the voting with ageing out(reddit) approach and the single new post so it goes back to the top(mrm forum) approach.

Myself I find that mrm forums are aimed more towards frugality and that's right because it's a lot of what MMM is about. As someone else mentioned reddit is skewed towards a younger crown but maybe not as much in the FI subreddit.

oinkette

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I've found r/FI to be completely in line with MMM. To be fair, they can be a bit critical of what appears to be the fanboy admiration of MMM but otherwise their ideals seem in line (which is why I don't get the criticism). I've seen a few people who want to FIRE on way more than I would need but the path getting there for the most part is no different than what I read here. It's one of the few subreddits on that site that isn't a complete horror-show of racism/sexism/xenophobia/cat pictures.

sol

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Maybe the Boglehead's $10M @55 is too conservative, but on the other hand $1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure.

You can't say a damn thing about either of those scenarios without first knowing the relevant spending level. 

Retiring on one million dollars at age 30 is super duper safe if you only spend $30k per year.  A 3% swr has never failed for any length time period, historically.   It doesn't matter what the total dollar amount or duration is.

soupcxan

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Maybe the Boglehead's $10M @55 is too conservative, but on the other hand $1M @ 30 has a non-trivial risk of catastrophic failure.

You can't say a damn thing about either of those scenarios without first knowing the relevant spending level. 

Retiring on one million dollars at age 30 is super duper safe if you only spend $30k per year.  A 3% swr has never failed for any length time period, historically.   It doesn't matter what the total dollar amount or duration is.

It's an illusion that you have 100% control over your expenses. Most notably, healthcare. Even with insurance (the cost of which could continue to rise much faster than inflation), what if you get a severe illness at 40 or develop a chronic condition that has a lot of out-of-pocket expenses? Or you have a kid who's sick?

If you might get married/have kids but haven't done that yet - you cannot reliably predict the next 50 years of expenses with those variables. A single person living on $30k/year is a lot different than a family of 3 living on $30k/year. You can do it, but it would involve more tradeoffs than I am willing to accept.

Or if you're already married - sometimes people get divorced. That can easily blow your budget up.

The fact that a 3% WR has never failed historically is good news, but is not a guarantee that it never will.

You have chosen to ignore a bunch of low-probability but potentially high-severity risks in order to assert that this strategy is foolproof. It's not.

Anyway, people are free to accept any level of FIRE risk they want. I just don't get this board's tendency to denigrate risk-averse people that want, say $3M at 40 to cover their family's expenses for the next 50 years.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 10:47:45 AM by soupcxan »

iamlindoro

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The fact that a 3% WR has never failed historically is good news, but is not a guarantee that it never will.

Every retirement has a risk of failure.  Every single one.  The question mustachians should be asking themselves is, "at what point does my effort to offset negligible risk represent an unacceptable sacrifice of my precious and limited time?

You have chosen to ignore a bunch of low-probability but potentially high-severity risks in order to assert that this strategy is foolproof. It's not.

Sol didn't say it was foolproof, though-- he just said that it was super duper safe.

Anyway, people are free to accept any level of FIRE risk they want. I just don't get this board's tendency to denigrate risk-averse people that want, say $3M at 40 to cover their family's expenses for the next 50 years.

I don't think it's a denigration, I just think it's a strong belief that a statistically minute risk is acceptable, knowing that it is almost always possible to use flexibility in our lifestyles to offset that risk.  *Time* (and here I mean the actual time afforded to us between birth and death) is the only completely non-renewable resource.  I'll take a tiny risk to maximize that which I can use on my own pursuits.

dragoncar

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The fact that a 3% WR has never failed historically is good news, but is not a guarantee that it never will.

Every retirement has a risk of failure.  Every single one.  The question mustachians should be asking themselves is, "at what point does my effort to offset negligible risk represent an unacceptable sacrifice of my precious and limited time?

You have chosen to ignore a bunch of low-probability but potentially high-severity risks in order to assert that this strategy is foolproof. It's not.

Sol didn't say it was foolproof, though-- he just said that it was super duper safe.

Anyway, people are free to accept any level of FIRE risk they want. I just don't get this board's tendency to denigrate risk-averse people that want, say $3M at 40 to cover their family's expenses for the next 50 years.

I don't think it's a denigration, I just think it's a strong belief that a statistically minute risk is acceptable, knowing that it is almost always possible to use flexibility in our lifestyles to offset that risk.  *Time* (and here I mean the actual time afforded to us between birth and death) is the only completely non-renewable resource.  I'll take a tiny risk to maximize that which I can use on my own pursuits.

+1

Also, there is more than one kind of "fire risk" involved-  sure there is risk you will run out of money at 4% SWR, but there's also risk that you die early and regret wasting the best years of your life shooting for 2% SWR