The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: lukebowles on April 28, 2021, 09:02:34 PM
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Apologies if this has been asked elsewhere.
I recently had the realisation that I could probably retire, either now or sometime relatively soon. I've always been frugal and been orientated towards opening up freedom in my life, so have long had the goal of retiring early. However, with some unexpectedly high returns on various investments I find myself in this position quite suddenly and rather sooner than expected.
With this realisation, I found myself feeling quite unanchored, which surprised me. I'm an introverted person who has a lot of interests and have always found it very easy to fill my time. I had assumed that should early retirement become a reality it would be a breeze - just lots of what I already like doing (travel, reading, meditation, working on projects, spending time with my family, planning and going on adventures/expeditions etc). Yet I still started reflecting on the need for a real plan for post retirement, things to be working towards, reasons to get up and be interested with engaging with life. Some wider over arching philosophy.
I am looking for some books I could read that address the psychology of early retirement and provide some food for thought on how to structure life and avoid the obvious pitfalls that could accompany of lot of time and minimal obligations. I have found plenty of books on retirement but as I'm 35 I'm not sure most of these will be aimed at someone in my situation.
Any suggestions gratefully received!
For reference, this was largely inspired by the Mad Fientist's podcast with Marla Taner which I found very though provoking.
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posting to follow
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As someone who's only about one third of the way there financially, I'm acutely aware that I don't know anything yet about the emotions and thoughts that will hit me when I get there. But I already find the topic a very interesting one.
For a long time, I had the Building a Life Without Work (https://livingafi.com/2015/03/09/building-a-vision-of-life-without-work/) post by Dr Doom open on my browser for reading whenever I'd get around to it. Then a thread here alerted me to the fact that he'd posted an update (https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/) 6 years later. It felt pretty absurd to read them alongside each other, almost as if it were a work of fiction and not a real person's very open and raw account of his life. But I'm glad I read them both -- it really reminded me that you can make as many plans as you want, but lots of things can go differently (both for the better and for the worse). And that that's OK. It doesn't mean your plan is bad or that planning was useless.
Another thread here a while back recommended the book The Joy of Not Working by Ernie J. Zelinski. So I borrowed it from the local public library, and have been renewing it for months and months without actually getting around to reading it. (What's up with the 1 million or so people in my city -- isn't anyone else interested enough by this stuff to place a hold on this book?) Well, I finally started it today, and it may be something useful for you to read.
In terms of practical arrangements, I'm planning to start a company when I eventually quit working. Just quitting without any other plan than to read books and have time to exercise is not something one does where I come from. Again, someone in a thread here posted a helpful reminder that having a business doesn't mean it has to be a particularly active or successful business. So that's a beautiful cover for being FI and just not being interested in having an actual job. But that's more about others' perceptions of early retirement, so probably not what you are after.
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Thanks for posting this. I listened to the podcast and look forward to here what people have to say.
I liked the term The Fog of Work https://the-military-guide.com/the-fog-of-work/.
I'm so busy working I can't see beyond it and then all of a sudden retirement is here.
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Take a couple of weeks off, as if it were your work vacation days, but then line up a solid schedule of activities. Commit to going somewhere and doing something concrete a few days a week, such as volunteer work. It will be less of a transition if you HAVE to get up some mornings for a real purpose. In the remaining time, schedule in some "leisure" activities, like fitness, social visits, specific things to do with family, community events etc. Treat it like a job at first, because it's hard to go from having to follow someone else's agenda most of the time to just doing whatever comes up most of the time. That's a recipe for quick loss of direction and motivation. Eventually, you'll find a rhythm that works for you, but more structure at first is probably better than less/no structure.
As for an overarching philosophy, I've always found the questions "What you you value more than your own comfort?" and "What would you willingly get up at 3AM to do?" helpful. They're related questions, as they get you to think about what is so important to you that you're willing to endure inconvenience and discomfort in order to do. For me, that answer is "help animals." So my time and money is spent on supporting animal causes/charities, taking in strays, pet sitting etc. I'm an introvert too, but at least some of my time and effort needs to be other-focused or I feel like I'm not doing anything worthwhile. It doesn't have to be paid to be worthwhile, just of value to society. That's the way I look at it. Once you've answered these questions for yourself, then you'll know what to put on your "schedule."
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Agree with @NorthernIkigai -- I've found Livingafi.com a tremendously helpful read in processing the emotions attached with the realization that I was on track to retire early if I wanted to. I think this was the first post I read, but it's one of the very few blogs that's worth a read "cover to cover", especially the recent update. https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918 (https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918)
The other thing I'll add to the good advice here is to leave yourself open to the possibility that your feelings about work, purpose, and how you should fill your days will change over time. You can and should be constantly revisiting these topics, especially when you're coming to an inflection point in your life, but understand that you won't really know how it feels until you're in it.
The best example I have is becoming a parent. I had LOTS of great ideas about how I was going to maintain all the things I enjoyed about my childless life and my kids would just neatly fit into that. Um, no. Kids are way more work that I fully grasped and--guess what?--they have their very own personalities and interests that probably won't fit neatly into the life of a childless late twentysomething. So, after some growing pains for both me and my husband, we changed our expectations. I did manage to keep some things I enjoyed about my pre-kids life, but a lot of those "great ideas" had to get chucked out. Do I miss it sometimes? Of course! But letting go of those expectations helped me open up to the wonderful possibilities of this stage of life, which is something I couldn't have done if I was clinging to the past.
Like having kids, FIRE is a major life inflection point. It's good to think about what you want to do, but understand that once you're in it, you will probably have to adjust your expectations. On top of that, unlike having kids, FIRE-ing is reversible. If you stop working and find that you miss having that in your life, go back out and find some work. But by being FI, you'll be able to do it on your own terms and at your own pace.
I don't know who first said it here, but it's good advice -- FIRE-ing too early is a mistake you can recover from. FIRE-ing too late is not.
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Although I haven't retired I read a great book called "This is Where you Belong" by Melody Warnick that I think would be useful to anyone looking to build community and find purpose where they are.
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There is a chapter in "the 4 hour work week" by Tim Ferriss called "Filling the Void, Adding life after subtracting work." has lots of probing questions, thoughts and recommendations for folks ready to retire early
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There is a chapter in "the 4 hour work week" by Tim Ferriss called "Filling the Void, Adding life after subtracting work." has lots of probing questions, thoughts and recommendations for folks ready to retire early
Thanks Joe. I actually read the 4 Hour Work week back in 2010 or so, shortly after starting my life in the cubicle and pondering how to escape. Along with my days of extended cheap travel, it probably had the biggest impact on me deciding I needed (and could) free myself from corporate life.
I'll dig it back out.
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Although I haven't retired I read a great book called "This is Where you Belong" by Melody Warnick that I think would be useful to anyone looking to build community and find purpose where they are.
Thanks Socaso! That'll go on the reading list...
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As someone who's only about one third of the way there financially, I'm acutely aware that I don't know anything yet about the emotions and thoughts that will hit me when I get there. But I already find the topic a very interesting one.
For a long time, I had the Building a Life Without Work (https://livingafi.com/2015/03/09/building-a-vision-of-life-without-work/) post by Dr Doom open on my browser for reading whenever I'd get around to it. Then a thread here alerted me to the fact that he'd posted an update (https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/) 6 years later. It felt pretty absurd to read them alongside each other, almost as if it were a work of fiction and not a real person's very open and raw account of his life. But I'm glad I read them both -- it really reminded me that you can make as many plans as you want, but lots of things can go differently (both for the better and for the worse). And that that's OK. It doesn't mean your plan is bad or that planning was useless.
Another thread here a while back recommended the book The Joy of Not Working by Ernie J. Zelinski. So I borrowed it from the local public library, and have been renewing it for months and months without actually getting around to reading it. (What's up with the 1 million or so people in my city -- isn't anyone else interested enough by this stuff to place a hold on this book?) Well, I finally started it today, and it may be something useful for you to read.
In terms of practical arrangements, I'm planning to start a company when I eventually quit working. Just quitting without any other plan than to read books and have time to exercise is not something one does where I come from. Again, someone in a thread here posted a helpful reminder that having a business doesn't mean it has to be a particularly active or successful business. So that's a beautiful cover for being FI and just not being interested in having an actual job. But that's more about others' perceptions of early retirement, so probably not what you are after.
Thanks for your thoughts. Agreed that starting a business would be an excellent outlet for motivation / energy. I've long contemplated it but the opportunity cost of failure seemed too high when weighed against a stable and decent salary that both provides for my family and slowly builds freedom in my life. Without the need for a salary, a business is more feasible with less pressure on the outcome. If it works, great, if not then at least I tried and no real loss.
I've also considered starting to work for free in a new area that interests me, but which I currently have few skills. By working free or cheap hopefully I can gain some experience that could be monetised into a new (hopefully part time) career down the road if I found I enjoyed it as much as I suspect I would.
Thanks also for posting the blog link - I haven't looked at that in years but recall devouring it at work back in 2015 or so during a slow and dreary time at work. Will probably revisit the whole thing - he seems like a thoughtful guy and I can relate to a lot of what he is writing about in terms of his motivations, struggles and outlooks.
I've never heard of the Joy of Not Working book - onto the reading list it goes!
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Thanks for posting this. I listened to the podcast and look forward to here what people have to say.
I liked the term The Fog of Work https://the-military-guide.com/the-fog-of-work/.
I've so busy working I can't see beyond it and then all of a sudden retirement is here.
Interesting link, thank you. I've taken a few extended breaks in my career (3-12 months) and amazing how being away from the day to day duties for a few months can lead to remarkably different (and usually more positive) outlooks. A clearing of the fog if you will!
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Agree with @NorthernIkigai -- I've found Livingafi.com a tremendously helpful read in processing the emotions attached with the realization that I was on track to retire early if I wanted to. I think this was the first post I read, but it's one of the very few blogs that's worth a read "cover to cover", especially the recent update. https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918 (https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918)
The other thing I'll add to the good advice here is to leave yourself open to the possibility that your feelings about work, purpose, and how you should fill your days will change over time. You can and should be constantly revisiting these topics, especially when you're coming to an inflection point in your life, but understand that you won't really know how it feels until you're in it.
The best example I have is becoming a parent. I had LOTS of great ideas about how I was going to maintain all the things I enjoyed about my childless life and my kids would just neatly fit into that. Um, no. Kids are way more work that I fully grasped and--guess what?--they have their very own personalities and interests that probably won't fit neatly into the life of a childless late twentysomething. So, after some growing pains for both me and my husband, we changed our expectations. I did manage to keep some things I enjoyed about my pre-kids life, but a lot of those "great ideas" had to get chucked out. Do I miss it sometimes? Of course! But letting go of those expectations helped me open up to the wonderful possibilities of this stage of life, which is something I couldn't have done if I was clinging to the past.
Like having kids, FIRE is a major life inflection point. It's good to think about what you want to do, but understand that once you're in it, you will probably have to adjust your expectations. On top of that, unlike having kids, FIRE-ing is reversible. If you stop working and find that you miss having that in your life, go back out and find some work. But by being FI, you'll be able to do it on your own terms and at your own pace.
I don't know who first said it here, but it's good advice -- FIRE-ing too early is a mistake you can recover from. FIRE-ing too late is not.
Agreed, it's a brilliant blog.
Also can relate to the childcare point. If I was 25 and not a family man (and especially a parent) my immediate plan would be simple - hit the road for a year, ponder life with no obligations, probably settle down somewhere new, cheap and exciting to eventually start on a business / project that I had dreamed up while on my travels. Obviously not possible with young family (especially if my wife wants to start working again or we decide not to homeschool) and so while I have new freedom from work the basic structure of my life remains quite constrained by familial considerations.
I don't expect to hit the perfect structure out of the gate and there's every chance I actually decide to keep working at my career for a bit longer for various family related reasons. I'm just so happy to have the flexibility to choose and remain open to change like you suggest. I'm sure it will be quite fluid for a number of years to come....
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Take a couple of weeks off, as if it were your work vacation days, but then line up a solid schedule of activities. Commit to going somewhere and doing something concrete a few days a week, such as volunteer work. It will be less of a transition if you HAVE to get up some mornings for a real purpose. In the remaining time, schedule in some "leisure" activities, like fitness, social visits, specific things to do with family, community events etc. Treat it like a job at first, because it's hard to go from having to follow someone else's agenda most of the time to just doing whatever comes up most of the time. That's a recipe for quick loss of direction and motivation. Eventually, you'll find a rhythm that works for you, but more structure at first is probably better than less/no structure.
As for an overarching philosophy, I've always found the questions "What you you value more than your own comfort?" and "What would you willingly get up at 3AM to do?" helpful. They're related questions, as they get you to think about what is so important to you that you're willing to endure inconvenience and discomfort in order to do. For me, that answer is "help animals." So my time and money is spent on supporting animal causes/charities, taking in strays, pet sitting etc. I'm an introvert too, but at least some of my time and effort needs to be other-focused or I feel like I'm not doing anything worthwhile. It doesn't have to be paid to be worthwhile, just of value to society. That's the way I look at it. Once you've answered these questions for yourself, then you'll know what to put on your "schedule."
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Thanks for your thoughts. I'm someone who does benefit from at least some degree of structure (otherwise I can end up wasting time endlessly) and so I like your idea of getting some activities scheduled. Currently working on a list of areas I'd like to either improve or start, with a focus on identifying at least some that get me out of the house, interacting with others and could be described as 'meaningful'. Much of my leisure time these days is pretty isolated apart from family, so that could be a problem with endless amounts of time.
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Agree with @NorthernIkigai -- I've found Livingafi.com a tremendously helpful read in processing the emotions attached with the realization that I was on track to retire early if I wanted to. I think this was the first post I read, but it's one of the very few blogs that's worth a read "cover to cover", especially the recent update. https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918 (https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918)
The other thing I'll add to the good advice here is to leave yourself open to the possibility that your feelings about work, purpose, and how you should fill your days will change over time. You can and should be constantly revisiting these topics, especially when you're coming to an inflection point in your life, but understand that you won't really know how it feels until you're in it.
The best example I have is becoming a parent. I had LOTS of great ideas about how I was going to maintain all the things I enjoyed about my childless life and my kids would just neatly fit into that. Um, no. Kids are way more work that I fully grasped and--guess what?--they have their very own personalities and interests that probably won't fit neatly into the life of a childless late twentysomething. So, after some growing pains for both me and my husband, we changed our expectations. I did manage to keep some things I enjoyed about my pre-kids life, but a lot of those "great ideas" had to get chucked out. Do I miss it sometimes? Of course! But letting go of those expectations helped me open up to the wonderful possibilities of this stage of life, which is something I couldn't have done if I was clinging to the past.
Like having kids, FIRE is a major life inflection point. It's good to think about what you want to do, but understand that once you're in it, you will probably have to adjust your expectations. On top of that, unlike having kids, FIRE-ing is reversible. If you stop working and find that you miss having that in your life, go back out and find some work. But by being FI, you'll be able to do it on your own terms and at your own pace.
I don't know who first said it here, but it's good advice -- FIRE-ing too early is a mistake you can recover from. FIRE-ing too late is not.
@Aelias this is a fantastic post. If I knew how, I'd post it in the 'best post I've seen' thread! But alas, it will have to stay here in obscurity.
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The investment advice in the original version no longer works very well and I don't know how much they updated it in the revised version, but "your money or your life" by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin is a classic. Vicki also has a blog and does a fair amount of interviews about how to live your values post-FI.
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Aw, thanks @Ladychips ! Worry not - toiling in obscurity is kinda my thing. :)
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I second Ernie Zelinsky's 'The Joy of not Working'. It has been maybe 6 years since I read it but it was good. As I recall it helps get you out of the 9-5 work week mindset, a fun read too. If you want real psychology that I believe also helps with post FIRE thinking try 'Man's Search for Meaning' by Victor Frankl. Any books on Stoicism are also good resources for people looking to 'change gears'.
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Aw, thanks @Ladychips ! Worry not - toiling in obscurity is kinda my thing. :)
+1!
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I think the psychological "problems" of FIRE are no different than the basic questions of purpose and meaning for everyone, it's just that work allows you to bury those questions-one of the major reasons people overwork IMO. Two books that helped me a lot were How to Be Idle by Tom Hodgkinson, and especially (though it's older and has some outdated attitudes) Conquest of Happiness by Bertrand Russell. Perhaps surprisingly for a philosopher, Russell recommends spending less time musing on life and more time engaging in simply enjoyable activities and connecting with others. Which is kinda obvious, but having a famous philosopher say it's okay to live like that makes it feel more legit to me :)
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I think the psychological "problems" of FIRE are no different than the basic questions of purpose and meaning for everyone, it's just that work allows you to bury those questions-one of the major reasons people overwork IMO.
This. It's huge, and I think it's why people can feel lost and drifting after retirement at any age.
For me, the biggest reason I encourage people to FI is so they are free to do the heart-of-heart work that calls them that not pay well or at all.
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A lot of people pursuing FI/FIRE are ambitious in their life goals.
That ambition doesn't just turn off if you stop working.
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Here is a good Victor Frankl quote
"For the meaning of life differs from man to man, from day to day and from hour to hour. What matters, therefore, is not the meaning of life in general but rather the specific meaning of a person's life at a given moment."
or stated another way, the meaning of life is the meaning you give it. We don't "find" meaning, we have to make it
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Agree with @NorthernIkigai -- I've found Livingafi.com a tremendously helpful read in processing the emotions attached with the realization that I was on track to retire early if I wanted to. I think this was the first post I read, but it's one of the very few blogs that's worth a read "cover to cover", especially the recent update. https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918 (https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918)
The other thing I'll add to the good advice here is to leave yourself open to the possibility that your feelings about work, purpose, and how you should fill your days will change over time. You can and should be constantly revisiting these topics, especially when you're coming to an inflection point in your life, but understand that you won't really know how it feels until you're in it.
The best example I have is becoming a parent. I had LOTS of great ideas about how I was going to maintain all the things I enjoyed about my childless life and my kids would just neatly fit into that. Um, no. Kids are way more work that I fully grasped and--guess what?--they have their very own personalities and interests that probably won't fit neatly into the life of a childless late twentysomething. So, after some growing pains for both me and my husband, we changed our expectations. I did manage to keep some things I enjoyed about my pre-kids life, but a lot of those "great ideas" had to get chucked out. Do I miss it sometimes? Of course! But letting go of those expectations helped me open up to the wonderful possibilities of this stage of life, which is something I couldn't have done if I was clinging to the past.
Like having kids, FIRE is a major life inflection point. It's good to think about what you want to do, but understand that once you're in it, you will probably have to adjust your expectations. On top of that, unlike having kids, FIRE-ing is reversible. If you stop working and find that you miss having that in your life, go back out and find some work. But by being FI, you'll be able to do it on your own terms and at your own pace.
I don't know who first said it here, but it's good advice -- FIRE-ing too early is a mistake you can recover from. FIRE-ing too late is not.
@Aelias this is a fantastic post. If I knew how, I'd post it in the 'best post I've seen' thread! But alas, it will have to stay here in obscurity.
@Ladychips
I think the way to do it is to quote the post. Then copy the quoted text and paste it into this thread:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/
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Agree with @NorthernIkigai -- I've found Livingafi.com a tremendously helpful read in processing the emotions attached with the realization that I was on track to retire early if I wanted to. I think this was the first post I read, but it's one of the very few blogs that's worth a read "cover to cover", especially the recent update. https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918 (https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/#more-4918)
The other thing I'll add to the good advice here is to leave yourself open to the possibility that your feelings about work, purpose, and how you should fill your days will change over time. You can and should be constantly revisiting these topics, especially when you're coming to an inflection point in your life, but understand that you won't really know how it feels until you're in it.
The best example I have is becoming a parent. I had LOTS of great ideas about how I was going to maintain all the things I enjoyed about my childless life and my kids would just neatly fit into that. Um, no. Kids are way more work that I fully grasped and--guess what?--they have their very own personalities and interests that probably won't fit neatly into the life of a childless late twentysomething. So, after some growing pains for both me and my husband, we changed our expectations. I did manage to keep some things I enjoyed about my pre-kids life, but a lot of those "great ideas" had to get chucked out. Do I miss it sometimes? Of course! But letting go of those expectations helped me open up to the wonderful possibilities of this stage of life, which is something I couldn't have done if I was clinging to the past.
Like having kids, FIRE is a major life inflection point. It's good to think about what you want to do, but understand that once you're in it, you will probably have to adjust your expectations. On top of that, unlike having kids, FIRE-ing is reversible. If you stop working and find that you miss having that in your life, go back out and find some work. But by being FI, you'll be able to do it on your own terms and at your own pace.
I don't know who first said it here, but it's good advice -- FIRE-ing too early is a mistake you can recover from. FIRE-ing too late is not.
@Aelias this is a fantastic post. If I knew how, I'd post it in the 'best post I've seen' thread! But alas, it will have to stay here in obscurity.
@Ladychips
I think the way to do it is to quote the post. Then copy the quoted text and paste it into this thread:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/
Thanks Linda. I'm going to leave Aelias in obscurity but good to know for the future.
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A lot of people pursuing FI/FIRE are ambitious in their life goals.
That ambition doesn't just turn off if you stop working.
I bet you could accurately predict this based on the methodology a person uses to FIRE. Like a system that was more hands-on and effort-based versus the slacker-style fully-automated low-effort system the unambitious among us prefer.
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The longer I'm here, the more I conclude that there isn't really a psychology of early retirement. It's really an individual experience.
The only universal is that pretty much everyone requires some degree of decompression and adjustment period. Beyond that, some people really thrive and some people really struggle.
The general rule of thumb is that if you were able to find happiness and fulfillment before retiring, you are unlikely to have any problems finding happiness and fulfillment after retiring.
Likewise, if you struggled to find it during your working years, retiring may actually make it feel even harder, until you make the psychological changes necessary to be able to thrive.
My best advice having gone through it is to not worry about what you are going to do in retirement at the beginning. Give yourself a period of time to decompress and adjust.
Without work, you will discover the person that you are without your career. Until you know that self, you can't know what that self really needs or wants from life.
Be open to the possibility that you genuinely have no clue who you are without your career. Embark on the very exciting adventure of getting to know that person. Try to listen more than tell yourself what you should be doing. Don't be arrogant and assume that you know best what your future self needs. I guarantee you that person is wiser and knows more than you do.
Enjoy the process of becoming that person. They very likely will surprise you.
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A lot of people pursuing FI/FIRE are ambitious in their life goals.
That ambition doesn't just turn off if you stop working.
I bet you could accurately predict this based on the methodology a person uses to FIRE. Like a system that was more hands-on and effort-based versus the slacker-style fully-automated low-effort system the unambitious among us prefer.
I don't agree.
I'm extremely lazy about my finances because I'm all about optimizing my energy. My ambition never tracked with my finances because I found it so easy to make a lot of money, and so easy to invest it passively and never think much about it.
That doesn't mean I'm not ferociously ambitious.
Everyone is different.