Author Topic: RE agents should die out  (Read 25795 times)

sugarsnap

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2014, 07:26:56 AM »


Note that while paper maps are mostly obsolete (although topo maps for hiking are still sold), cartographers are still very much in demand we just make maps digitally rather than manually these days.  Excellent career (Called GIS) for those starting out.

I love maps! Is it a desk job or do you get to drive around and scout the scene when generating maps? Take cool trips? I'm picturing a Lewis and Clark type of kayaking adventure.

Or do you just use satellite imagery?

How much training is necessary? Is it something one can do as a part-time second career?

Is there math involved? What kind of skills are needed? I come from an engineering (communications) background. I like to draw too. Is this a needed skill (even if done electronically)?

I work about 80% at a desk now, the rest of the time is collecting gps data in the field.  My first job was driving a google car type car (way before google maps!) all sound the country which was pretty awesome!  Most people in the industry have a BA in geography or general IT but there are also certificate programs.  Most city and counties have GIS employees, so there are a lot of government jobs but plenty in the private sector too, the hotbed of GIS (Geographic Information Systems) is in the Denver area.

I am able to work part time but it is generally a full time job, although there are seasonal jobs for forestry, tracking forest fires, and other temporary projects.

The industry really has a wide range from basic data gathering and entry to complex database/programming jobs.  I do "draw" features digitally with satellite imagery as a base. You may be familiar with CAD, we use those drawings also. It's a nice mix of creative (making pretty maps for presentations) and technical (programming, etc.).

Fascinating! I looked up my city's information on GIS and there's a big project underway. It's a big city in the Southeast (hint hint). I saw there were some certification programs. Oh man...I've got to do some research on this.

I've been working in software for quite a while. I haven't programmed in a bit, but I'm sure I'd could learn the lingo.

Maybe when I get laid off, I can take a little sabbatical and then look into this. I'd be close to if not at FIRE in the next year or two.

If I can do this part-time on my own terms, that would be amazing. Project-based work is definitely FIRE-friendly.

Is the field open to people without a BS in this but obtaining certification instead?

Yes it is open to those with certifications, especially if you are not looking for full time govt job, they are the most stringent about education in my experience. 

You can take some into classes with free demo software from ESRI.com

chasesfish

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2014, 07:44:12 AM »
I think the big challenge in this industry is the purpose of the agent has changed,  they no longer need to help you find property or figure out what you want, their value comes from pushing deals from an offer to close.  Hundreds of little issues can come up that agents have seen before but buyers/sellers haven't.  They also can remove the emotional element as this is a business transaction


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totoro

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2014, 09:18:25 AM »
There is some value to that, but not $20,000 of value imo.   That kind of expertise is available for $30/hour.

I agree with the PP that it is worth investing some time into understanding the transaction.  And it is not so complicated. 

Granted, I'm a lawyer now, but I did this before I became one too.

Buying and selling real estate is formulaic and you follow a checklist to determine issues.  You spend the time to learn the local market, talk to people, read a couple books, get the forms, get a professional inspection and use a lawyer to do the conveyance. 

Fishingmn

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2014, 07:54:04 AM »
There is some value to that, but not $20,000 of value imo.   That kind of expertise is available for $30/hour.

I agree with the PP that it is worth investing some time into understanding the transaction.  And it is not so complicated. 

Granted, I'm a lawyer now, but I did this before I became one too.

Buying and selling real estate is formulaic and you follow a checklist to determine issues.  You spend the time to learn the local market, talk to people, read a couple books, get the forms, get a professional inspection and use a lawyer to do the conveyance.

Are you charging $30/hour to your law clients? My guess is it's more like $100-300/hour.

Heck, the car repair guy or plumber costs you $80/hour but somehow a Realtor is only worth $30?

devan 11

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »
  Usually, I am completely for doing things myself.  There are limitations to my skill sets and sales and face to face negotiations are not my strong suit.  I sold an estate house using an agent.  She pounded the pavement to find a buyer and kept the price up enough to completely pay commissions and an additional profit.  I felt like I came out great.  I bought my house using her and it was from a "for sale by owner".  There is a reason that agents don't want owners around when they show a listing.  Again, her knowledge of local market prices and trends and using the owners inexperience to negotiate paid for her commission. I am in the process of selling our old house now.  I rented it out and the renter has signed the purchase agreement.  We are waiting for closing date now.  I used a lawyer in this... no RE agent.  Looking back, I may have done better if I had listed through a realtor, but it was a starter home, and after fees, there wouldn't be that much more.

Emilyngh

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2014, 09:15:10 PM »
but it was a starter home, and after fees, there wouldn't be that much more.

This is somewhat OT, but what makes it a "starter home"?   The fact that it's small and/or relatively less expensive?

I know that this is the terminology commonly used, but i think that it reinforces the idea that as one " moves up" through life the norm should be to just get larger and larger, more and more expensive homes and if one does not do so they never are moving beyond the starting line in life.   I hope that we would reject that line of thinking here.

Daisy

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2014, 09:28:18 PM »


Note that while paper maps are mostly obsolete (although topo maps for hiking are still sold), cartographers are still very much in demand we just make maps digitally rather than manually these days.  Excellent career (Called GIS) for those starting out.

I love maps! Is it a desk job or do you get to drive around and scout the scene when generating maps? Take cool trips? I'm picturing a Lewis and Clark type of kayaking adventure.

Or do you just use satellite imagery?

How much training is necessary? Is it something one can do as a part-time second career?

Is there math involved? What kind of skills are needed? I come from an engineering (communications) background. I like to draw too. Is this a needed skill (even if done electronically)?

I work about 80% at a desk now, the rest of the time is collecting gps data in the field.  My first job was driving a google car type car (way before google maps!) all sound the country which was pretty awesome!  Most people in the industry have a BA in geography or general IT but there are also certificate programs.  Most city and counties have GIS employees, so there are a lot of government jobs but plenty in the private sector too, the hotbed of GIS (Geographic Information Systems) is in the Denver area.

I am able to work part time but it is generally a full time job, although there are seasonal jobs for forestry, tracking forest fires, and other temporary projects.

The industry really has a wide range from basic data gathering and entry to complex database/programming jobs.  I do "draw" features digitally with satellite imagery as a base. You may be familiar with CAD, we use those drawings also. It's a nice mix of creative (making pretty maps for presentations) and technical (programming, etc.).

Fascinating! I looked up my city's information on GIS and there's a big project underway. It's a big city in the Southeast (hint hint). I saw there were some certification programs. Oh man...I've got to do some research on this.

I've been working in software for quite a while. I haven't programmed in a bit, but I'm sure I'd could learn the lingo.

Maybe when I get laid off, I can take a little sabbatical and then look into this. I'd be close to if not at FIRE in the next year or two.

If I can do this part-time on my own terms, that would be amazing. Project-based work is definitely FIRE-friendly.

Is the field open to people without a BS in this but obtaining certification instead?

Yes it is open to those with certifications, especially if you are not looking for full time govt job, they are the most stringent about education in my experience. 

You can take some into classes with free demo software from ESRI.com

Hmmm...a certification followed by occasional project work while still being able to live a FIRE life and travel while not working would be ideal. If project work involves doing fun outdoor stuff to gather map data, then it wouldn't seem too bad.

Is this a doable plan?

Of course, I'd take a sabbatical of at least a year before doing anything resembling work.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 09:30:15 PM by Daisy »

Workinghard

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2014, 02:26:22 AM »
Just curious...why a real estate lawyer versus a title company?

usmarine1975

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2014, 08:44:18 AM »
A lawyer will generally either have a title company to work with him or is part of a title company.  I trust my Lawyer because I know him well enough to know he has my back.  Yes he charges but his rates are fair.  A title company gives you title insurance.  Not sure they would handle all the other contract paperwork etc.... I could be wrong.

Emilyngh

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2014, 08:46:48 AM »
My understanding is: A real estate lawyer represents you, the buyer.   A title company should be neutral, but they only look into issues regarding a clear title, they do not look out for your interests in other areas of the transaction.   

For example, when we bought our house, as part of the agreement, the seller had to get some asbestos removed by a certified company.   Our attorney noticed that the proof he submitted regarding the company he used looked shady (the name of the company was odd and website really crappy), so they looked into it to confirm the company was legit.   We were not involved at all, did not have to worry about it at all, until he told us about it after the fact.

We also did not have the realtor present at the closing, the lawyer's office coordinated and setup everything for the closing (getting the required docs and sigs from everyone else, etc and we just had to show up and sign).

When I researched this topic, at least in my area, the attorney cost no more than the closing agent that the mortgage company recommended, so then we figured why not have someone on your side looking over things in case oddities arise.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 08:48:46 AM by Emilyngh »

totoro

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2014, 09:00:00 AM »
There is some value to that, but not $20,000 of value imo.   That kind of expertise is available for $30/hour.

I agree with the PP that it is worth investing some time into understanding the transaction.  And it is not so complicated. 

Granted, I'm a lawyer now, but I did this before I became one too.

Buying and selling real estate is formulaic and you follow a checklist to determine issues.  You spend the time to learn the local market, talk to people, read a couple books, get the forms, get a professional inspection and use a lawyer to do the conveyance.

Are you charging $30/hour to your law clients? My guess is it's more like $100-300/hour.

Heck, the car repair guy or plumber costs you $80/hour but somehow a Realtor is only worth $30?

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I was being generous stating that as I can get local info for free on online real estate boards and you can join groups for this. Listing are online and I can list for 799 including pro photos, advice and pro signs.  I can get forms for free. A lawyer charges 800-1000 for a simple conveyance (I don't do that - not my area of law), a home inspector is about 300.  If I wanted someone to come view a property with me who had bought before, which I don't but some might, there might be 30 per hr value for some. I might be interested in having someone show my house for me so I can work instead, but that is not worth a listing commission to me. If it takes too long to sell it is probably listed too high.

For me a realtor has zero value
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 09:37:33 AM by totoro »

falcondisruptor

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2014, 03:47:42 PM »
Here in Ottawa we have a pretty large FSBO company called Grapevine.  They get lots of traffic and I think most buyers know about them.
 
I've sold two places through them without much hassel.  Bascially you negotiate with the purchaser then they take that deal to their lawyer to make everything official.  If you also want to be on MLS, they work with agents that will give you a mere listing for like $199.

When we buy we use an agent because otherwise the selling agent will just keep the commission anyways.  Might as well help a friend out.  We always searched the Grapevine listings ourselves though too.

totoro

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2014, 04:05:54 PM »
You can ask for a discount from the listing agent if you are not represented and the listing agent is getting double commission.  We were successful with this on a house that had been on the market for a while.

As an aside, lawyers are able to act as buyer's agents.  Not all real estate companies will honor the commission split, but some will.  I helped a friend buy as her agent and got the buyer's agent's commission deducted from the sale price. 

swiper

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2014, 04:47:17 PM »
When we buy we use an agent because otherwise the selling agent will just keep the commission anyways.  Might as well help a friend out.  We always searched the Grapevine listings ourselves though too.

Consider the perverse incentive for the sellers agent when you don't work with a buyers agent (and don't demand a direct commission split)... a full commission instead of the 1/2. I think this can really make your "offer" seem attractive.

You've just got to give that seller's agent something to work with: low offer price but with low/no conditions and good deposit ;)






Glenstache

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2014, 06:52:02 PM »
You've just got to give that seller's agent something to work with: low offer price but with low/no conditions and good deposit ;)

Did exactly this.   

As a side note, this transaction was also a lesson in reading all of the paperwork that comes from the title company and not assuming that the "professionals" would catch errors. I spent a few hours going through them and found a number of errors, some of which had been propagated forward through the years, some of which were new, not the least of which was a 0.5% error on the rate of the note- and not in my favor, of course. I used a note from the seller instead of a mortgage: saved all those pesky bank fees and negotiated a lower rate than the bank offered.

devan 11

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2014, 07:25:20 PM »
but it was a starter home, and after fees, there wouldn't be that much more.

This is somewhat OT, but what makes it a "starter home"?   The fact that it's small and/or relatively less expensive?

I know that this is the terminology commonly used, but i think that it reinforces the idea that as one " moves up" through life the norm should be to just get larger and larger, more and more expensive homes and if one does not do so they never are moving beyond the starting line in life.   I hope that we would reject that line of thinking here.

In my case, it was a house that I bought when I was 21. I was told at the time that it was not a fixer up, but a tear down.  I bought it cheap paid it off, and then used house payment money to fund investments.  I have lived for free for years.

Over time, I refurbished every part of the house.  By the time I was done, it was completely replumbed, rewired to 20 amp circuitry, insulated, re-roofed with steel lifetime shingles, re-sided , basement floors were torn out, new pilings re-leveled the house,  re poured the basement floor. Installed new 3/4 in oak floors, renovated the kitchen, new energy efficient windows, new doors, efficient furnace, and a/c.

What I couldn't fix was location.  The deteriorating neighborhood made it time to move on.

Fishingmn

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2014, 09:42:33 PM »
There is some value to that, but not $20,000 of value imo.   That kind of expertise is available for $30/hour.

I agree with the PP that it is worth investing some time into understanding the transaction.  And it is not so complicated. 

Granted, I'm a lawyer now, but I did this before I became one too.

Buying and selling real estate is formulaic and you follow a checklist to determine issues.  You spend the time to learn the local market, talk to people, read a couple books, get the forms, get a professional inspection and use a lawyer to do the conveyance.

Are you charging $30/hour to your law clients? My guess is it's more like $100-300/hour.

Heck, the car repair guy or plumber costs you $80/hour but somehow a Realtor is only worth $30?

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I was being generous stating that as I can get local info for free on online real estate boards and you can join groups for this. Listing are online and I can list for 799 including pro photos, advice and pro signs.  I can get forms for free. A lawyer charges 800-1000 for a simple conveyance (I don't do that - not my area of law), a home inspector is about 300.  If I wanted someone to come view a property with me who had bought before, which I don't but some might, there might be 30 per hr value for some. I might be interested in having someone show my house for me so I can work instead, but that is not worth a listing commission to me. If it takes too long to sell it is probably listed too high.

For me a realtor has zero value

The reality is that lawyers are protected by the same regulatory mechanism as Realtors. If real estate agents have no value because of the internet then why do lawyers have value?

If you are all for removing governmental barriers to practice real estate then we should eliminate the bar and let anyone practice law as well right? There are so many lawyers these days that charge so much - maybe we should cap lawyer fees, eliminate malpractice lawsuits and cap tort awards.

If it's so easy to decide the Realtors provide no value in a consumer's largest financial transaction it should be just as easy to eliminate those highly paid lawyers as well.

totoro

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2014, 11:29:35 PM »
You do realize that no-one but a realtor can present themselves as a realtor and realtors do have insurance right?  No-one is stating that anyone can call themselves a realtor.

Having a regulatory body does not make jobs alike or necessary.  Teachers, mortgage brokers, travel agents, nurses, dentists, doctors, lawyers, accountants, stockbrokers, engineers, and childcare workers all have them. So what.

FWIW, realtors are not out there being replaced by unlicensed individuals, they are being replaced by DIY folk who have decided they don't need to pay $20,000 to sell their homes or that they'd rather benefit from a reduction in price by acting as their own buying agent.

The internet has meant the slow demise of a number of jobs including things like many newspaper staff and travel agents.  These are jobs that either depended on a low tech world and access to non-public databases (think MLS) for information.  Things have changed.

As for not needing lawyers, I have zero problem if there is a DIY movement and that occurs.  It won't though as far as I can tell.  I myself would use a specialized lawyer if need be.  I do for conveyancing.  I also disagree with American tort and malpractice awards - way too high.  Why?  All it does is increase fees and insurance and give unreasonable windfalls.  Seems crazy to me.  Canadian awards aren't like that at all.

Some things can be standardized like straight-forward wills, real estate contracts for typical buy-sell purchases and short form business contracts.  Many others cannot and require knowledge of the law and strategic application.  They come with both high responsibility and high liability plus the ability to manage these matters to best advantage.

Lawyers are different from realtors not only in responsibility level.  A lawyer goes to school for seven years plus one of articling in Canada.  A realtor can become a realtor less than six months. It is interesting that in Canada a lawyer is paid $800 for a conveyance while a realtor is paid $20,000.  Something is wrong with that system imo. 

I don't practice RE law so I have no vested interested in upping the lawyer role, I'm just saying that I know what realtors do and to me it is not worth that fee, or any fee except to list on realtor.ca.  Wouldn't be worth it to pay that to a lawyer either.  The fee for service is simply too high given the skill level required.

For some people a realtor might be worth it.  Particularly the older crowd who are not familiar with the internet and not willing to become so or become up to date on how to buy/sell RE, or who may have emotional attachments. 

As time passes, I expect the RE agent's job will not be as necessary and commissions will decline - as is already occurring.

usmarine1975

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2014, 07:23:20 AM »
I will second the notion that Lawyers will not disappear.  I do not sign documents unless my lawyer has reviewed them.  Unless they are documents I have already signed in the past and had reviewed and I am certain they are exactly the same.  I read EVERYTHING I sign and when I have questions I have my Lawyer review it.  Find  a good Lawyer.  Mine is great he doesn't gouge me.  I have actually had to ask him and stress to him that he needs to charge me for what he does.  I don't want a free lunch.  (well that's not true I do like free)

In my last job I was a financial advisor and was listed on clients accounts as such.  The firm that I left has a practice of not changing the agent.  Basically the firm continues to collect the commissions and put's it in their own account instead of transferring the clients to a different advisor.  (part of the reason I left the firm)  I made a request that my clients get transferred to an individual I trusted.  In the end I sent an e-mail to the partners and bcc my Lawyer.  They did nothing even though I stated I was copying my Lawyer.  I waited 2 weeks and was instructed by my Lawyer to send it again but to show them he was being copied.  Within an hour I got a reply stating that they were working on transferring the accounts to another advisor.

My biggest problem with this practice is they are collecting commissions in my name but not paying me and to some degree with my name being on the accounts liability could also be an issue.  Mind you I did nothing while with them that I was concerned about, for me it was more the idea of my name continuing to go out on statements when I no longer worked for the company.  I had already sent an e-mail to all of my clients notifying them that I had left the company and gave them the name and number of the advisor that I preferred they call for assistance.

Lawyers do add value if used properly and if properly selected.  Real Estate Agents can provide value and in many cases are a good thing.  If one is more experienced in buying and selling property the RE Agent is unnecessary.  Each of my purchases a Lawyer has been involved, so I have paid that fee every time.  The RE agent in my last two purchases simply passed on the offers and provided paperwork all of which can be done through my Lawyer.  The 3 % for me is a savings I will go with from now on. 

In regards to the selling agent collecting both sides, that will not happen.  My Lawyer will kindly draft a letter notifying the selling agent that I am representing myself and he will only be allowed to charge his 3% or less for us to move forward.  I have also found out that the % fee is negotiable.  If I pay for a higher priced property I will negotiate that every time. 

I don't think Real Estate Agents will disappear.  Quite a large number of people are still under the impression you have to use them.  RE Agents have also started working into the rental management gig.  In my State they keep telling me you have to be a RE Agent to Manage properties for others.  I have yet to see this law in writing.  I do know an individual that works for the RE Agent association and I know that they are pushing to make this a law.  RE agents have only been around a short time in retrospect.  Lawyers have been around Well for quite a LONG Time.

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2014, 08:29:31 AM »
Well said. The commissions on RE agents are crazy - part of the reason I don't plan to buy at this point.

I don't think it is a very good reason not to buy. You can always buy directly from an owner and use a Title company to do the paperwork. I purchased a property directly from a seller for 125K and only paid about $270 to the title company for their services.


CanuckExpat

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2014, 02:42:51 AM »
Well you might already be right on one count, aside from NYSE and Chicago, most major exchanges are electronic

As for real estate agents, I agree with you, but there might be a reason they won't readily go the way of travel agents, they control both sides of the transaction:
Quote
Economists have long been perplexed by the resilience of the real estate agent. Theory suggests that the relationship between agent and buyer or seller is far from optimal, and that conflict is often borne out in practice...they’re rewarded for pressuring clients into selling quickly and accepting suboptimal offers, or, in the case of a buyer’s agent, for allowing the client to pay too much..

..seeking to address the question of why discount brokers and for-sale-by-owner transactions have failed to steal sales from real estate agents. They found that there’s a subtle collusion in real estate that separates it from industries like stock trading and air travel. Two agents, not one, are required to sell a house—one representing the buyer, the other the seller. “Needing two agents to cooperate in a transaction allows a full-service agent to punish discount agents, It also allows full-service agents to punish other full-service agents who cooperate with discount agents.” As a result, an agent can steer clients away from for-sale-by-owner properties or from homes represented by discount brokers.

SnackDog

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2014, 04:22:03 AM »
If you know how to select and use an experienced realtor, they are worth their weight in gold.

The last two homes we bought would not have been possible without the hard work of great agents.   Real estate is very local and understanding the specifics of every house and location takes years of experience.  Good agents have steered us away from stupid properties we might have otherwise bought.  They have also helped us a great deal with difficult situations with other parties, both buying and selling.

Our last home buying experience relied heavily on the internet up front, but the reality of visiting properties was vastly different to the photos.  Having someone along to give advice on what was good and bad about every property and location was priceless. In the end, the realtor sold us a property which was not on the market.  We never would have found it without him and it was far and away better than anything we had seen.

rocketpj

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2014, 12:25:57 AM »
I've worked with about a few RE agents over the years.  Every single time there has been a point when our interests were not the same - and I could tell they were pursuing their own goals rather than mine. 

The Real Estate industry is poisoned with perverse incentives.  A selling agent wants to sell a property as quickly as possible, with a minimum amount of effort on the agent's part.  A buying agent wants their client to buy as quickly as possible, so they can collect the commission and move on to the next client.  Sometimes that goal coincides with the client's needs - often it doesn't.

For an agent, a $20K difference in a sale price is not a huge amount of money.  If they can get you to over pay, or sell cheap, they get a quick commission and move on.  For the rest of us, even $5K is a chunk of money deserving respect.  The realtor has a perverse incentive to convince you to let go of that 'paltry' amount, as their commission on it is relatively negligible compared to a potential commission on some future property. 

All that said, most of us only buy real estate two or three times in our lives.  It is a huge expense and it can be helpful to have a professional to guide us.  Real Estate Agents are part of a dying system, but it will take a long time to die out altogether.  You can see the industry getting a little nervous though - I have seen a few commercials talking about how much you need a realtor when you make a property transaction and how dangerous it is to go it alone - they wouldn't be running those if they weren't nervous.

gooki

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2014, 03:47:11 AM »
RE agents last, because I know we have some here and they will no doubt be offended.  Your jobs are superfluous.  Zillow and Redfin and Estately are crude tools but they are only getting better over time.  Their algorithms will soon be better than your "gut feeling" about local real estate valuations.  We'll still need some humans involved in the home-buying process, but that person really should be a lawyer, the transaction should only require one of them for both parties, and that person should not make 6% of the purchase price of a home.  By what possible logic does a RE agent deserve to make ten times as much for selling a $500k home as for selling a $50k home?  Is it anywhere near ten times as much work?  Real estate lawyers should charge a set fee or an hourly rate to do the paperwork, and they should contract out the cost of hiring a bonded worker to open front doors in the same way they currently contract out the title insurance.  All of the home shopping and comparisons, including the marketing for sellers, is already better done online.  Eventually, the websites will be able to walk you through the paperwork too.  Is signing a home purchase contract really more complicated than filing your taxes?

Were already there in NZ. $500 covers your online advertising, and lawyers can be had for $700 plus expenses. Algorithms aren't required to match buyers to sellers, just create a great user experience.

eyePod

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2014, 12:28:56 PM »
We bought out house with redfin two years ago.  It was AWESOME.

I'm a data guy, and they have great data... all exportable.  I built some crazy valuation models that I fed in near real time using redfin data.

Their agents that show homes are great.  No "Here's the kitchen.  Look at the nice stainless!"  They always stood back, let me roam the house, and answered questions.  Building my own itinerary online was great.  No need for the phone at all!

When it came to actually putting in an offer, I worked with the lead agent to come up with a valuation.  Rather than just giving me a number, he walked me through his model and commented on any differences between his and mine.

Communication was great (all by email), and the negotiation process was smooth.

Once we had a signed offer, I started working with another redfin team that specializes in getting you ready for closing.  They were super efficient, amazingly organized, and very nice.  There was an online status tracking system that recorded who was waiting on what (basically a simplified gantt chart) that made it really easy to see that we were staying on schedule.

Each service provider in the process had their own login to the system and logged their progress towards completion.  We were ready several days before closing, which from talking to friends who have done this without redfin appears to be rare.

Closing went super smooth, everything was in order, and I got half the buyer's agent commission back.  Pretty sweet deal.

All in all, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend redfin.  As long as you are interested in doing the work of looking yourself (and with the internet, of course you are!) then redfin is a great choice.

I'm working with a traditional realtor now in an area that redfin doesn't service.  The difference is night and day, and I've gone through several realtors trying to get even a fraction of the competence that redfin provided.

Traditional Realtors should be quaking in their boots.

(feel free to hit me up on PM if you want to talk more about buying with redfin.  Happy to fill you in on all the details)

This is so interesting, especially with the paperwork. Our realtor was nice and accomadating (getting us into some last minute houses when we hadn't planned on having a day off) etc., so there's definitely still a market out there, but other than that, her paperwork skills were terrible. We found multiple errors, had to re-issue stuff constantly, thank god it was electronic because it would have been terrible to try to do this in person.

I will definitely keep an eye out on redfin and use it in the future if I buy a house in 15 years. I do not want to do it anytime soon though.

sobezen

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Re: RE agents should die out
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2014, 02:21:32 PM »
What an interesting thread! I would like to share a few ideas that seem to be overlooked involving using real estate brokers and agents. Just my ten cents, YMMV.

1) Clients can and should negotiate the commission percentage. Try it. You do not have to pay the suggested or requested commission percentage. Negotiate up front before you partner with a real estate agent/office. Also interview multiple agents/offices to gain a better feel, how they will "work for you". I keep reading throughout this thread how some agents only did a few non-value add activities or gave basic advice. Not all real estate transactions are the same, some require more or less marketing, preparation, or negotiating with parties, etc. Furthermore, not all agents are created equally. Only by interviewing more agents can you begin to understand what is the agents specialty, background, work ethic, workload, marketing if selling, support team and most importantly, communication style. Many of these intangibles make or breaks your real estate relationship and over all experience. So, I highly recommend everyone please do your due diligence and research qualified real estate agents. Doing so, helps reduce your stress and enables you to gain an very important ally. Then, you will be armed with more knowledge how to negotiate with your agents on what is a reasonable commission. :)

2) Quality real estate agents bring tremendous value to clients on both sides of the table. Many of us know how confusing and stressful a first-time home purchase becomes. Even for a second time buyer do you really have the time, experience and resources to dedicate while working a full-time job and raising your family? Your time is limited. A seasoned, reputable and ethical real estate adds value by navigating you through the entire real estate purchase or sale process. Also great real estate agents also act as fiduciaries too. Yes there are countless stories how some agents are not ethical or serving as fiduciaries. I am not including those kinds of agents; many of those agents can be excluded when conducting your research.

Something often overlooked is how lenders and sellers alike do not like dealing with buyers who are inexperienced and/or do not have a real estate agent acting on their behalf. There is just so much to be knowledgeable about that it is extremely easy to overlook things experienced agents are aware of, but you the DIY buyer/seller will not. Be honest and ask yourself some of these basic questions? As a DIY buyer, do you know the protocols involved dealing with tenant occupied properties and showings when there are no open houses scheduled? Not all properties have open houses to the public. Do you know how to gain access to pocket listings? Do you know how to coordinate with other real estate firms to obtain disclosure packages? More importantly, do you actually understand what you are looking at during a visual property inspection, let alone the huge disclosure package? Do you understand the neighborhood, the lot, local planning department and other important intangibles not captured by resources like Zillow and Redfin? Do you know how to negotiate and get infront of the seller's agent/office so your offer is given serious consideration? Remember you are competing with other buyers who probably have someone working for them, while you are at work or otherwise busy living life. Real estate agents deal with each other, lenders, title companies, planning departments, a lot more than the public realizes. Some of the most important parts of a real estate transaction are all about managing the most efficient ways of interfacing with all these people, while being meticulously detailed-oriented and staying ahead of very tight deadlines. I have seen it time and again especially in the Bay Area where buyers get only one shot at making an offer. When you overlook something in the paperwork process because you do not know the requirements and/or you do not have a broker proofing your offer before it is submitted, you the DIY buyer are increasing your chances of getting a rejected offer or worse, something going wrong without your knowledge. 

YMMV in other cities but I feel when time is not on your side, that probably is not the most prudent time to be experimenting and learning real estate pitfalls at the expense of potentially losing a purchase or sale.  Good luck!

Lastly, I completely agree with Fishingmn who accurately observed, "Realtors take on all of the risk in the current "% of final sale" model. Many people list but don't sell and many buyers want to go look at houses that never buy. In some ways, agents may be better off with a fee for service model. Personally, I've started a 2 tier listing commission option where I charge 5.5% under a normal model or 4.7% if the seller pays a $500 non refundable deposit (credited toward final commission). That way the seller is paying all of my up front marketing expenses whether or not the home sells. I think both parties benefit in this if they really want to sell and not just test the market."