Author Topic: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?  (Read 4903 times)

stealthwealth

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RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« on: April 01, 2024, 09:42:10 AM »
We're nearing the end of life on a 2002 built Corolla (The older of 2 Corollas we own).  Starting to rust out the rockers, interior components starting to break, and beginning to show signs of engine wear, and our kids are getting big enough that it's no longer a good ride on road trips, or that great for packing our stuff when we travel.  Will still make a good car for someone else, or potentially a good first car for our oldest in a few years, but starting to be impractical for the family.

We would like something that still has good fuel economy as a daily driver (over 30 highway, ideally about 30 combined), and at least 1.5x the practical storage capacity of the Corolla.  I've been doing research on midsize SUVs and sedans, and surprisingly many don't seem to have any more useful cargo space than the 'Rolla's trunk, due to being weirdly shaped/dimensioned.  Which is where the vehicles I mentioned above stand out.  Also, I have a huge and growing CD collection and no desire to fund a subscription streaming platform that screws artists on stream revenue, so a CD player like in the Sube is a huge plus since physical media purchased directly from artists is a great way to pay them what they deserve.

I'm basically looking for pros/cons on these vehicles (or other recs) from a mustachian POV.  Model years / opinions / etc.  I haven't found any EVs that really make much sense financially or spatially.  Teslas are not an option for numerous reasons. 

Thanks!

 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 09:45:59 AM by stealthwealth »

SunnyDays

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2024, 09:56:51 AM »
If you can find a used Matrix, they have plenty of cargo space thatís actually useable.  Or a Pontiac Vibe or Honda HRV; they are both very similar to the Matrix.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2024, 10:05:34 AM »
If you can find a used Matrix, they have plenty of cargo space thatís actually useable.  Or a Pontiac Vibe or Honda HRV; they are both very similar to the Matrix.

I actually passed on a Vibe a few years ago when we got our second 'Rolla, because the cargo behind the rear seat in practice is not bigger than the Corolla trunk after I compared measurements. Folded down, it's great, but that's not an important scenario for us.
With the rear seats in use it requires you store things in the field of rear view to exceed the regular 'Rolla.  They're still great cars, but don't solve the problem for longer trips (which we do often enough that it would be annoying). 

darknight

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2024, 10:47:52 AM »
What's your budget?

I've had a lot of different cars over the years- Most of them sub $10k that I find interesting or needing a small repair. I'd buy them, drive/fix them and sell them. It helped pay for a part of my education and keep me from going completely underwater before finding MMM haha.
I've had a CRV and and Forester..  small cars to big SUV's and trucks.

We purchased a forester shortly after our second was born for a little more room and AWD. It lasted just a few months as it offered marginally better interior space than our corolla we had at the time. Ended up with a 90's camry wagon that I still miss to this day. The CRV was a good car, however cramped for drivers over 6ft. I think the newer ones are better suited to taller drivers. The thing to remember is that most of those "mid" (small by today's American standards) SUV's will feel only a bump bigger than your corollas unless you're buying a newer one. My interpretation of a Mustachian vehicle probably falls somewhere in a $15k and below price.

Newer generations of CRV's, Rav4's and similar have grown. If your budget allows a newer vehicle those can be great options. I would personally avoid a subaru (even with their superior AWD) based on personal and friends' experiences with the CVT transmissions, head gaskets, and axle shafts. I love those cars but I would really hesitate buying one. Also, they have grown in size- If I were going to look at one it would be the new outback. At 6ft plus I can comfortably sit in the back seat.

If I had a $25K+ budget I would personally look at a hybrid rav4, of the latest generation. 2018 and newer. Guy I know had one and loved it's MPG and comfort but sold it to get something more "fun" to drive. Single guy problems I guess. The other option in that budget would be a 2014 or newer hybrid Toyota Highlander. This won't get the best mileage but for a growing family Highlanders are awesome. A fellow parent in a kids group recently bought a new toyota Corolla Cross, I think it was sub 30K. Decent cargo space. Hybrid starting MSRP on the toyota website is sub 30k for a base model no options.

We currently have second gen (2008-2013) Highlander that has been a fantastic vehicle. Large enough for kids, gear, comfort, etc.
Fuel mileage isn't great at 18-22 mpg (non hybrid) but they have fantastic reliability with the 3.5 v6. It's basically a SUV/Van with AWD. I see them listed from $7000 to $13000

If I had $10-15k budget and wasn't concerned with clearance or awd I would look at a newer Camry. A lot more interior space than a corolla and if you find a hybrid model it will give you decent MPG.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2024, 10:58:58 AM »
Well, according to Westegg, my '03 Corolla was $27k in today's dollars, so I'd say around $30k since I'm looking for a more spacious vehicle.  We'd pay cash whatever we do.  If it's the right used vehicle with low enough miles, that's cool too. 

I've also test driven at a Maverick hybrid, which is larger than the 'Rolla inside, but I'm not sure how I feel about a bed/tonneau versus enclosed, more secure and climate controlled interior cargo storage, and it is a little noisier.
 
Haven't seriously looked at cars in a decade, and back then I was just looking for another Corolla to replace a different 20 year old Corolla. 



darknight

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2024, 11:06:14 AM »
Well, according to Westegg, my '03 Corolla was $27k in today's dollars, so I'd say around $30k since I'm looking for a more spacious vehicle.  We'd pay cash whatever we do.  If it's the right used vehicle with low enough miles, that's cool too. 

I've also test driven at a Maverick hybrid, which is larger than the 'Rolla inside, but I'm not sure how I feel about a bed/tonneau versus enclosed, more secure and climate controlled interior cargo storage, and it is a little noisier.
 
Haven't seriously looked at cars in a decade, and back then I was just looking for another Corolla to replace a different 20 year old Corolla.

I would go check out some camry/corolla cross/rav4 options. All of the newer models yield decent MPG and base models are around that price. At least where I live car lots are full with the higher interest rates so you would likely be able to sit in them and feel them all out.
The Maverick is a cool idea, but I agree on the small bed. I wish they had an AWD hybrid option. I would probably own one.

Sandi_k

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2024, 11:07:16 AM »
I wouldn't go for a Forester, because its mileage is horrible.

Both RAV4's and CRV's come in hybrid form. As do the (new) Corolla Cross wagon, the Toyota Venza (2009-15, first gen), or 2021-2024 (current gen, and hybrid AWD).

The current gen hybrid RAV4 began in 2019, not 2018, FYI. I have one, and average 39-41 mpg over 80k miles (and 4.5 years) of driving.

RWD

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2024, 11:17:16 AM »
I haven't found any EVs that really make much sense financially or spatially.
What about a used Kia Niro EV? They run $20k +/- for a low mileage example. Quite a bit more cargo capacity than a 2002 Corolla (1.9x) and it's a practical hatch.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2024, 11:19:27 AM »
I'm not going to make a decision for a few months, so feel free to keep the discussion going.  Gotta do some test drives.  Appreciate the opinions so far. 

catch1690

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2024, 11:45:13 AM »
Highly recommend a Mazda CX-5 over other Japanese counterparts, can be found cheaper with better deals AND v.high reliability since they split with ford in 2015,

CX-5 is all built in Japan on its final years of this generation. 

CX-50 is a bit more rugged looking and is built with Toyota in America, however first gen so I'd personally avoid it for the first year.

Personally think Toyotas have gotten a bit pricey for what they are


Just as a modify - CX-5 doesn't have a CVT (Great!) and can be bought without a turbo (also great if you want to remove a maintenance item).
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 11:46:49 AM by catch1690 »

TimCFJ40

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2024, 12:12:20 PM »
Before you buy KIA or Hyundai, do some research on the engine issues they are having, then kindly pass. 
I'd look at the Corolla Cross, Rav4, and CRV.  I'd pass on another Subaru, we've had two we bought new that burned oil substantially before 100k miles, and we're not the only ones that have had that issue that I know personally.

Also look at slightly used Acura RDX and Lexus NX Models, as sometime the luxury versions cost less on the used market than the regular CRV/Rav4.  We bought a used RDX for less than we could find it's Honda CRV Cousin for. 

RWD

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2024, 01:10:15 PM »
Before you buy KIA or Hyundai, do some research on the engine issues they are having, then kindly pass.

The Kia I suggested does not have an engine at all.

catch1690

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2024, 01:28:46 PM »
Before you buy KIA or Hyundai, do some research on the engine issues they are having, then kindly pass.

The Kia I suggested does not have an engine at all.

If you can home charge and are okay with it (I see your Arizona so the hot climate is to your benefit here), you could go with it. I personally won't make that switch until charging infrastructure is at a place where it is almost equal to combustion engine fuel stations.

The long distance range anxiety is enough to turn me off it for now. I at times do long 10hr drives etc and wouldn't want the hassle. 

EV's are meant to be more reliable, but I doubt you'll get a hard yes or no on them on this forum.

weebs

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2024, 01:44:32 PM »
Check out the Mazda 3 (hatch or sedan) and CX-30 (CUV).  They're genuinely nice little cars, reliable and generally cost less than their Toyota counterparts.  As a bonus, they have great driving dynamics and are fun to drive.

NorCal

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2024, 02:29:51 PM »
If you're not absolutely opposed to an EV, the upcoming Chevy Equinox EV looks like it checks your boxes for size, if not a CD player.  I think the VW ID.4 might be a contender as well. 

RWD

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2024, 02:55:51 PM »
Before you buy KIA or Hyundai, do some research on the engine issues they are having, then kindly pass.

The Kia I suggested does not have an engine at all.

If you can home charge and are okay with it (I see your Arizona so the hot climate is to your benefit here), you could go with it. I personally won't make that switch until charging infrastructure is at a place where it is almost equal to combustion engine fuel stations.

The long distance range anxiety is enough to turn me off it for now. I at times do long 10hr drives etc and wouldn't want the hassle. 

EV's are meant to be more reliable, but I doubt you'll get a hard yes or no on them on this forum.

We've driven our EV as far north as Wisconsin and as far east as North Carolina. Contemplating a drive up the west coast as well. It's not perfect but I've never had range anxiety. And as far as the hassle of stopping more often, I welcome the breaks. More relaxing way to road trip, in my opinion.

EV charging infrastructure is catching up fast to gas stations. There are already more EV charging ports than gas stations (not the most useful metric). There is about 1 EV charging station per 3 gas stations. In just a few more years EV charging stations could outnumber gas stations.

MMMarbleheader

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2024, 06:46:33 AM »
Just go all out and get a Toyota Sienna

Vindicated

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2024, 07:27:13 AM »
I've got a Hybrid CRV.  Not the most Mustachian choice, but I intend to hand it down to my son in 7 years or so.

It drives great, super comfy, and averages 33mpg.

I previously drove a Forester, and I prefer the CRV.  Although, both are fine cars.

darknight

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2024, 04:09:57 PM »
Just go all out and get a Toyota Sienna

Not the OP but those hybrid AWD Sienna's are so awesome. Having rented one once, it was huge inside, didn't feel like a "eco" car but got great mileage. Looking at Fuelly the hybrid sienna yields around 32 mpg. Staggering for a large AWD vehicle. Sure, they aren't as "cool" as a big SUV like the Tahoes or other big rigs but they seem like a fantastic choice for a family.

blueberrybushes

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2024, 07:49:55 PM »
Stealthwealth,

I have a 2017 Forrester and a 2019 CRV (EX-L).  Both gasoline.  Both have plenty of room for 4 people and luggage in the back.  When I bought the CRV, I drive the Toyota RAV hybrid and did not like the way it drove.  Honda did not have a hybrid at the time.

Both are fine.  The AWD is great.  Mileage on both is 26-28  mpg in the city and 33-35 on the road.  However, unless Subaru has changed 2 things, I would not buy one again.  Their CVT is not as smooth as the CRV and they have weird software programs running the cruise control and power windows. 

We buy cars every 10 years or so and don't drive much (6,000 miles/yr total).  Next time we buy, we'll get a hybrid and probably downsize to one vehicle.  It will NOT be an EV - unless alot changes in the next 3-4 years.

PW

cincystache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2024, 08:52:52 PM »
Sienna hybrid would be a great vehicle but the prices are crazy high and supply seems low. Even used ones with 30k miles are still selling for 45-50k.

I like Toyota but they have gotten so overpriced it is hard to see that brand as mustachian anymore.

Wintergreen78

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2024, 09:24:14 PM »
I reliably get close to 40 mpg in a 2019 vw golf with a 1.4 liter engine. It has good space. The Jetta wagon from that era is the same car with slightly more storage space. They might be worth looking at.


RWD

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2024, 09:58:33 PM »
I reliably get close to 40 mpg in a 2019 vw golf with a 1.4 liter engine.
That's the diesel engine, isn't it? Diesel fuel has 20% more energy per volume than normal gasoline. It's also about 14% more expensive than gasoline currently.

Wintergreen78

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2024, 10:33:22 PM »
I reliably get close to 40 mpg in a 2019 vw golf with a 1.4 liter engine.
That's the diesel engine, isn't it? Diesel fuel has 20% more energy per volume than normal gasoline. It's also about 14% more expensive than gasoline currently.

No, mine is gasoline. But I have a manual. I went on-line and saw that the automatics get low-to-mid 30ís.

Also I just get on the freeway and set cruise control. If you are on and off the gas and the brakes you can drop the mileage noticeably.

GilesMM

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2024, 06:05:51 AM »
Sienna hybrid would be a great vehicle but the prices are crazy high and supply seems low. Even used ones with 30k miles are still selling for 45-50k.

I like Toyota but they have gotten so overpriced it is hard to see that brand as mustachian anymore.


Sienna non-hybrid would work well also, and save dragging around two motor systems.  Five year old with 100k miles around $22k.  27mpg hwy.

RWD

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2024, 07:37:46 AM »
I reliably get close to 40 mpg in a 2019 vw golf with a 1.4 liter engine.

That's the diesel engine, isn't it? Diesel fuel has 20% more energy per volume than normal gasoline. It's also about 14% more expensive than gasoline currently.

No, mine is gasoline. But I have a manual. I went on-line and saw that the automatics get low-to-mid 30ís.

Also I just get on the freeway and set cruise control. If you are on and off the gas and the brakes you can drop the mileage noticeably.

Ah, okay. It looks like the automatic and manual fuel economy ratings are exactly the same (link). 29/37 mpg (city/hwy).

lhamo

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2024, 07:59:17 AM »
STBX bought a hybrid Rav 4 about 2 years ago.  One of the primary reasons was that he wanted something bigger than my Ford Cmax to help DS move to Berkeley with.  I discovered right around Portland that the design of the headrests is horrible for shorter people on long drives -- ended up with horrible neck pain the entire trip (I ended up driving most of the way there and back because STBX hates driving on the freeway in regular circumstances and REALLY hates it on windy mountain routes).

I have driven my Cmax to Moab/Colorado and back twice now and have never had the same issues with neck pain.

I do like the backup camera, though!

rothwem

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2024, 12:15:41 PM »
Sienna non-hybrid would work well also, and save dragging around two motor systems. Five year old with 100k miles around $22k.  27mpg hwy.

Gotta correct some stuff here:
-Hybrids are more like half a gas engine and half of an electric motor, and Toyotas hybrid electric motor/transmission is actually more mechanically simple than a regular transmission, so you gain some simplicity there.  Besides, the gas motor allows for 3 minute "charges" that you don't get on a full EV. 
-$22k for a 5 year old car with 100k miles?  Fuck that.  I'd get something new 10 times out of 10 over that. 
-27 mpg highway? Er, do you own a previous gen Sienna?  My brother's got a 2016 that gets 16 around town and 22-23 on long trips, its breathtakingly bad.  Maybe the slightly newer ones are better, but I'd be surprised if they are. 

Radagast

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2024, 09:56:34 AM »
Some consumerist tips: The RAV4, CRV, and Forester are small SUVs, not mid size. A Forester and a Impreza share the same platform, have the same turning radius, length, etc. A Forester is basically just a vertically stretched Impreza. Similarly a RAV4 is like a vertically stretched Corolla, a CRV is like a vertically stretched Civic, etc. So it's not surprising you found the space isn't much greater: it isn't, and its all height.

The solution for more space would be an Outback. It is one size up, and similar to the Legacy platform. It really has noticeably more space. Or Highlander, or Pilot, or looking at minivans a Sienna, Odyssey, or Pacifica. Of those, Outback or minivans seem the way to go, three row mid-size SUVs always rubbed me the wrong way.

kenner

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2024, 11:52:04 AM »
Some consumerist tips: The RAV4, CRV, and Forester are small SUVs, not mid size. A Forester and a Impreza share the same platform, have the same turning radius, length, etc. A Forester is basically just a vertically stretched Impreza. Similarly a RAV4 is like a vertically stretched Corolla, a CRV is like a vertically stretched Civic, etc. So it's not surprising you found the space isn't much greater: it isn't, and its all height.

The solution for more space would be an Outback. It is one size up, and similar to the Legacy platform. It really has noticeably more space. Or Highlander, or Pilot, or looking at minivans a Sienna, Odyssey, or Pacifica. Of those, Outback or minivans seem the way to go, three row mid-size SUVs always rubbed me the wrong way.

Not sure if you're looking at an earlier year or what, but if you're looking new(ish) Subaru's Forester and Impreza aren't the same length--Crosstrek and Impreza are both ~176", Forester is ~182" (right between RAV4 and CRV).   May or may not matter, it did for me with a 1950s size garage.  Although I remain irritated that the hybrid Crosstrek isn't available, or more accurately serviceable, in my area.

Radagast

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2024, 06:21:37 PM »
Some consumerist tips: The RAV4, CRV, and Forester are small SUVs, not mid size. A Forester and a Impreza share the same platform, have the same turning radius, length, etc. A Forester is basically just a vertically stretched Impreza. Similarly a RAV4 is like a vertically stretched Corolla, a CRV is like a vertically stretched Civic, etc. So it's not surprising you found the space isn't much greater: it isn't, and its all height.

The solution for more space would be an Outback. It is one size up, and similar to the Legacy platform. It really has noticeably more space. Or Highlander, or Pilot, or looking at minivans a Sienna, Odyssey, or Pacifica. Of those, Outback or minivans seem the way to go, three row mid-size SUVs always rubbed me the wrong way.

Not sure if you're looking at an earlier year or what, but if you're looking new(ish) Subaru's Forester and Impreza aren't the same length--Crosstrek and Impreza are both ~176", Forester is ~182" (right between RAV4 and CRV).   May or may not matter, it did for me with a 1950s size garage.  Although I remain irritated that the hybrid Crosstrek isn't available, or more accurately serviceable, in my area.
I guess it was the Impreza sedan I was comparing, which are now discontinued in favor of hatches. The 2022 Impreza sedan was 182.1 inches. The Forester and Impreza sedan were basically the same horizontal size and turning radius. In terms of why these vehicles don't seem to have much more space than a Corolla, well there it is.

dreaming

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2024, 11:16:30 PM »
I bought a new 2014 CRV EX-L that I will be driving into the ground as I have a lifetime warranty on it.  I like it and feel it has enough room for our needs.  (Kids were 8 and 6 when I got it). The only drawback is it drinks oil.  Not sure if newer year CRVís have the same problem, but itís annoying enough for me to reconsider getting another one.   Iíd have to research to see if they fixed the problem. 

Just Joe

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2024, 08:03:44 PM »
Wondering if that is a known problem for that era. Our '14 MDX uses no oil. Our 1st gen CRV uses no oil.

406MtnFire

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2024, 08:24:44 PM »
I really like the Toyota Highlander's, they have the bulletproof toyota V6 that has some good power and a lot of storage.

Ron Scott

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2024, 05:42:39 AM »
I really like the Toyota Highlander's, they have the bulletproof toyota V6 that has some good power and a lot of storage.

I would take one of these over a RAV4 any day.

rothwem

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2024, 10:27:54 AM »
Wondering if that is a known problem for that era. Our '14 MDX uses no oil. Our 1st gen CRV uses no oil.

The CRV mentioned has the K24, and oil burning isnít uncommon in those engines. I do think itís weird that some engines are completely unaffected though.

Just Joe

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2024, 01:34:38 PM »
I have heard bits and pieces about "new" (for 20-teens) piston rings that are didn't have as much spring tension so they didn't push as hard against the cylinder walls -> less friction -> better MPG.

Downside - it took a few years to get it right. Friend has a GM product of the same era with the same problem.

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2024, 05:49:48 PM »
Just get a brand new Model Y for about $30-$35k.  Stop burning fossil fuels, and ya, you have to support the person that has done more than anyone else on the planet to transition the world to renewable energy.  What a horrible thing to do.  Perhaps more importantly, you are also supporting the 140,000 or so workers that Tesla employs, and also buying one of the most "made in the USA" cars in existence(if it comes from one of the American Gigas).

Tesla will sell every car they make wether you buy one or not.  If you think the CEO's or founding fathers of Legacy automakers are somehow better, I've got a bridge to sell you.  Sure...get a Toyota, one of the companies putting up more resistance than most for transitioning to EV's.  Or get a VW.....no bad history there....certainly no emissions scandal or anything of that nature....destroying the planet to make a few more bucks..no big deal. Henry Ford was a GREAT person..buy one of his cars.......

But, buying a car from the person who's primary goal is to literally help save the planet and transition away from fossil fuels, even freely opening the HUGE advantage of the SC network to all legacy makers, since, ya know, they weren't willing to put forth any effort to do so, ya, don't buy anything from him.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 06:02:40 PM by EchoStache »

achvfi

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2024, 06:52:55 PM »
Just get a brand new Model Y for about $30-$35k.  Stop burning fossil fuels, and ya, you have to support the person that has done more than anyone else on the planet to transition the world to renewable energy.  What a horrible thing to do.  Perhaps more importantly, you are also supporting the 140,000 or so workers that Tesla employs, and also buying one of the most "made in the USA" cars in existence(if it comes from one of the American Gigas).

Tesla will sell every car they make wether you buy one or not.  If you think the CEO's or founding fathers of Legacy automakers are somehow better, I've got a bridge to sell you.  Sure...get a Toyota, one of the companies putting up more resistance than most for transitioning to EV's.  Or get a VW.....no bad history there....certainly no emissions scandal or anything of that nature....destroying the planet to make a few more bucks..no big deal. Henry Ford was a GREAT person..buy one of his cars.......

But, buying a car from the person who's primary goal is to literally help save the planet and transition away from fossil fuels, even freely opening the HUGE advantage of the SC network to all legacy makers, since, ya know, they weren't willing to put forth any effort to do so, ya, don't buy anything from him.

Is there a chance you belong to Tesla's marketing department or do you own Tesla shares? Why keep peddling their products? Why support its currently toxic CEO/company while citing last hundred years of history?

I remember many being taken advantage by Tesla selling overpriced model 3 for over $50000 and remains financial regret from those days..

VanillaGorilla

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2024, 09:39:41 PM »

Is there a chance you belong to Tesla's marketing department or do you own Tesla shares? Why keep peddling their products? Why support its currently toxic CEO/company while citing last hundred years of history?

I remember many being taken advantage by Tesla selling overpriced model 3 for over $50000 and remains financial regret from those days..
He's just anxious to justify his own $59,000 purchase of a Model Y, which incidentally is currently available on the Tesla website for a hair under $45,000, before tax credits.

Back to the original post, I've been so perplexed by this thread.

Quote
We would like something that still has good fuel economy as a daily driver (over 30 highway, ideally about 30 combined), and at least 1.5x the practical storage capacity of the Corolla.
That's very reasonable, though honestly 30mpg is a bit low by today's standards. I've averaged about 45mpg over the last 70,000 miles of my driving. I wouldn't accept less than that from a modern car (as opposed to something with AWD and ground clearance, i.e. an SUV, from which I would demand at least 35mpg).
Quote
I've been doing research on midsize SUVs and sedans, and surprisingly many don't seem to have any more useful cargo space than the 'Rolla's trunk, due to being weirdly shaped/dimensioned.  Which is where the vehicles I mentioned above stand out. 

I'm very confused by this observation. A 2002 Corolla has 12 cubic feet of trunk space. If this car meets your needs and you would like just a bit more cargo room, then pretty much any car sold on the market today will meet your needs. You could get a Civic or Corolla hatch, a hybrid Camry or Accord, a hybrid Ioniq or a Honda Fit, a Prius or Focus, a HR-V or Corolla Cross, a CR-V or a RAV4, an Elantra or Sonata or a Versa or Kicks or Crosstrek or Impreza hatch or any equivalent cars by various domestic and German companies. There's pretty much no car on the road that will be smaller or have less cargo capacity than a 2002 Corolla, and the vast majority of them will offer 18+ cubic feet of trunk space.

From personal experience I can assure you that at least the Prius, Crosstrek, Fit, Ioniq, and CR-V have usable space directly in line with the cargo volumes reported by their manufacturers. There are literally dozens of makes and models over the last 22 years that will satisfy all your criteria.

Quote
Also, I have a huge and growing CD collection and no desire to fund a subscription streaming platform that screws artists on stream revenue, so a CD player like in the Sube is a huge plus since physical media purchased directly from artists is a great way to pay them what they deserve.


That's very honorable, but unless you have a pressing need for a Subaru's niche (ground clearance and excellent low traction performance), then you pay a very significant premium in total cost of ownership. Note that I have a soft spot for Subarus; I owned one as a young man and I love them. However, they are dramatically less reliable than other Japanese brands and the fuel economy is very mediocre.  Buying a car for a CD player is putting the cart before the horse. You can get a USB or Bluetooth CD player for under a hundred dollars; you can get an aftermarket stereo for many cars for a similar amount and an hour or two of installation. Or you could spend an hour ripping your CDs to MP3s and store them on a old IPod. Getting 25mpg and dealing with dying transmissions, popped head gaskets, dead wheel bearings, floating valves, and replaced electrical harnesses (all problems personally witnessed on family and friends' modern Subarus) seems like a steep price to pay for a CD player.

If you're not interested in EVs for whatever reason, I'd take a long hard look at Toyota hybrids. Prius if you want a hatch, Camry if you want a sedan, Corolla Cross for a smaller SUV or RAV4 for a much larger vehicle. Cross shop similar cars from different brands if you don't like Toyota for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 07:49:19 AM by VanillaGorilla »

sonofsven

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2024, 07:38:09 AM »
Just get a brand new Model Y for about $30-$35k.  Stop burning fossil fuels, and ya, you have to support the person that has done more than anyone else on the planet to transition the world to renewable energy.  What a horrible thing to do.  Perhaps more importantly, you are also supporting the 140,000 or so workers that Tesla employs, and also buying one of the most "made in the USA" cars in existence(if it comes from one of the American Gigas).

Tesla will sell every car they make wether you buy one or not.  If you think the CEO's or founding fathers of Legacy automakers are somehow better, I've got a bridge to sell you.  Sure...get a Toyota, one of the companies putting up more resistance than most for transitioning to EV's.  Or get a VW.....no bad history there....certainly no emissions scandal or anything of that nature....destroying the planet to make a few more bucks..no big deal. Henry Ford was a GREAT person..buy one of his cars.......

But, buying a car from the person who's primary goal is to literally help save the planet and transition away from fossil fuels, even freely opening the HUGE advantage of the SC network to all legacy makers, since, ya know, they weren't willing to put forth any effort to do so, ya, don't buy anything from him.

How much for the bridge? Location? Don't say Baltimore.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2024, 10:29:12 AM »
Just get a brand new Model Y for about $30-$35k.  Stop burning fossil fuels, and ya, you have to support the person that has done more than anyone else on the planet to transition the world to renewable energy.  What a horrible thing to do.  Perhaps more importantly, you are also supporting the 140,000 or so workers that Tesla employs, and also buying one of the most "made in the USA" cars in existence(if it comes from one of the American Gigas).

Tesla will sell every car they make wether you buy one or not.  If you think the CEO's or founding fathers of Legacy automakers are somehow better, I've got a bridge to sell you.  Sure...get a Toyota, one of the companies putting up more resistance than most for transitioning to EV's.  Or get a VW.....no bad history there....certainly no emissions scandal or anything of that nature....destroying the planet to make a few more bucks..no big deal. Henry Ford was a GREAT person..buy one of his cars.......

But, buying a car from the person who's primary goal is to literally help save the planet and transition away from fossil fuels, even freely opening the HUGE advantage of the SC network to all legacy makers, since, ya know, they weren't willing to put forth any effort to do so, ya, don't buy anything from him.

Is there a chance you belong to Tesla's marketing department or do you own Tesla shares? Why keep peddling their products? Why support its currently toxic CEO/company while citing last hundred years of history?

I remember many being taken advantage by Tesla selling overpriced model 3 for over $50000 and remains financial regret from those days..

There is a zero percent chance of me purchasing anything Tesla.  The idea of giving a dime to Elon Musk makes my skin crawl, let alone supporting the long-termerism cult.  Humans living today take higher priority than hypothetical future humans, always.  I'll buy an EV when the upfront cost is reasonable, and the feature set is acceptable. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:37:38 PM by stealthwealth »

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2024, 12:31:00 PM »
A couple links that really put into focus how flawed the conventional metrics surrounding cargo volume are, and the impetus for this thread.  Just found these the last couple days.  For clarity's sake, I am mostly concerned with cargo capacity behind the second row, as on any trips, the second row is occupied by humans.  But the added utility of a large open space in other scenarios is valuable. 

https://www.autoblog.com/article/luggage-test/

https://www.cars.com/articles/which-suvs-minivans-and-sedans-have-the-most-cargo-capacity-439514/

As it turns out, when you measure compact SUV luggage capacity to the top of the back seat (where there is reduced projectile and visibility hazard), they are about on par with a Corolla, and the Corolla's official 13.6 cu ft measurement underestimates by about 30% what the 'rolla can actually hold.  That being said, they likely do have about 1.5x the Corolla's capacity if you go a bit more vertical with storage.  To get less ambiguous gains, you're going to the next class up, and boxier shapes perform way better.  The results in the two links above demonstrate the degree to which you can disregard every manufacturer's volume claims, because they aren't measured in a standard fashion. 

There have been a lot of good suggestions so far, and it's helping me refine my search.

I think the other big goal is keeping TCO around or below $4k/yr for 12k miles (figuring in taxes, upfront cash price, depreciation, insurance, fuel economy, anticipated repairs, fuel costs, etc).  Which is a surprisingly easy target to hit, and fulfills my space goals since a lot of larger class 100k+ mile SUVs do hit that target.  Seems like older Highlanders (as mentioned above) are actually a decent option, maybe old Pilots too. 



« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:36:11 PM by stealthwealth »

Radagast

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2024, 01:40:27 PM »
I actually don't sell Outbacks, but I'd suggest you take a look at those too. The numbers in your links still don't tell the whole story, and the Outback has a lot of horizontal sprawl that makes its space much larger and more useable than a Corolla even if the number you found is similar. Its second row seat also has notably more space than that of a Highlander, if that matters. It gets similar combined mileage to a previous model Highlander hybrid, and you could get a used one of the same year and mileage for $10,000 less.

Or minivans. Nothing else you are looking at will compare to a Sienna hybrid with its rear seat folded down.

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2024, 03:41:12 PM »

Is there a chance you belong to Tesla's marketing department or do you own Tesla shares? Why keep peddling their products? Why support its currently toxic CEO/company while citing last hundred years of history?

I remember many being taken advantage by Tesla selling overpriced model 3 for over $50000 and remains financial regret from those days..
He's just anxious to justify his own $59,000 purchase of a Model Y, which incidentally is currently available on the Tesla website for a hair under $45,000, before tax credits.

Back to the original post, I've been so perplexed by this thread.

Quote
We would like something that still has good fuel economy as a daily driver (over 30 highway, ideally about 30 combined), and at least 1.5x the practical storage capacity of the Corolla.
That's very reasonable, though honestly 30mpg is a bit low by today's standards. I've averaged about 45mpg over the last 70,000 miles of my driving. I wouldn't accept less than that from a modern car (as opposed to something with AWD and ground clearance, i.e. an SUV, from which I would demand at least 35mpg).
Quote
I've been doing research on midsize SUVs and sedans, and surprisingly many don't seem to have any more useful cargo space than the 'Rolla's trunk, due to being weirdly shaped/dimensioned.  Which is where the vehicles I mentioned above stand out. 

I'm very confused by this observation. A 2002 Corolla has 12 cubic feet of trunk space. If this car meets your needs and you would like just a bit more cargo room, then pretty much any car sold on the market today will meet your needs. You could get a Civic or Corolla hatch, a hybrid Camry or Accord, a hybrid Ioniq or a Honda Fit, a Prius or Focus, a HR-V or Corolla Cross, a CR-V or a RAV4, an Elantra or Sonata or a Versa or Kicks or Crosstrek or Impreza hatch or any equivalent cars by various domestic and German companies. There's pretty much no car on the road that will be smaller or have less cargo capacity than a 2002 Corolla, and the vast majority of them will offer 18+ cubic feet of trunk space.

From personal experience I can assure you that at least the Prius, Crosstrek, Fit, Ioniq, and CR-V have usable space directly in line with the cargo volumes reported by their manufacturers. There are literally dozens of makes and models over the last 22 years that will satisfy all your criteria.

Quote
Also, I have a huge and growing CD collection and no desire to fund a subscription streaming platform that screws artists on stream revenue, so a CD player like in the Sube is a huge plus since physical media purchased directly from artists is a great way to pay them what they deserve.


That's very honorable, but unless you have a pressing need for a Subaru's niche (ground clearance and excellent low traction performance), then you pay a very significant premium in total cost of ownership. Note that I have a soft spot for Subarus; I owned one as a young man and I love them. However, they are dramatically less reliable than other Japanese brands and the fuel economy is very mediocre.  Buying a car for a CD player is putting the cart before the horse. You can get a USB or Bluetooth CD player for under a hundred dollars; you can get an aftermarket stereo for many cars for a similar amount and an hour or two of installation. Or you could spend an hour ripping your CDs to MP3s and store them on a old IPod. Getting 25mpg and dealing with dying transmissions, popped head gaskets, dead wheel bearings, floating valves, and replaced electrical harnesses (all problems personally witnessed on family and friends' modern Subarus) seems like a steep price to pay for a CD player.

If you're not interested in EVs for whatever reason, I'd take a long hard look at Toyota hybrids. Prius if you want a hatch, Camry if you want a sedan, Corolla Cross for a smaller SUV or RAV4 for a much larger vehicle. Cross shop similar cars from different brands if you don't like Toyota for whatever reason.

Refusing to buy an EV and hence committing to burning fossil fuel for all of your driving for the next decade because Elon Musk hurt your feelings(not you specifically), is just pretty dumb, and it doesn't matter what kind of car I do or don't drive.  We as a society should be embracing more planet friendly modes of transportation, especially when it is financially equivalent or better than locking into the outdated technology of a fossil fuel car.  It's a bigger issue than "Elon Musk hurt my feelings". The two EV's we own means 10,000 gallons of fuel that won't be burned in the next ten years.  We generate more than enough solar to fuel our vehicles, house, and daughter's PHEV.  If it means that one of those was bought from Tesla, well, I'm not in high school anymore, so "I don't like him" would have been a dumb reason to buy a gas car or drastically subpar alternative brand of EV.  No CEO is mother Theresa.  They aren't as vocal, but when taken as a whole, I'd rather buy from the CEO who's primary mission is transitioning the world to renewable energy vs legacy auto whose primary mission is profit today at the expense of our planet.  Not sure how anyone thinks that is somehow better in the grand scheme of things.

If used cars are an option, it's really hard to justify NOT getting a PHEV given the current incentives.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 04:17:46 PM by EchoStache »

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2024, 05:18:12 PM »
Refusing to buy an EV and hence committing to burning fossil fuel for all of your driving for the next decade because Elon Musk hurt your feelings(not you specifically), is just pretty dumb, and it doesn't matter what kind of car I do or don't drive.  We as a society should be embracing more planet friendly modes of transportation, especially when it is financially equivalent or better than locking into the outdated technology of a fossil fuel car.  It's a bigger issue than "Elon Musk hurt my feelings". The two EV's we own means 10,000 gallons of fuel that won't be burned in the next ten years.  We generate more than enough solar to fuel our vehicles, house, and daughter's PHEV.  If it means that one of those was bought from Tesla, well, I'm not in high school anymore, so "I don't like him" would have been a dumb reason to buy a gas car or drastically subpar alternative brand of EV.  No CEO is mother Theresa.  They aren't as vocal, but when taken as a whole, I'd rather buy from the CEO who's primary mission is transitioning the world to renewable energy vs legacy auto whose primary mission is profit today at the expense of our planet.  Not sure how anyone thinks that is somehow better in the grand scheme of things.

If used cars are an option, it's really hard to justify NOT getting a PHEV given the current incentives.

If you think Elon Muskís motivations are anything but to make money, youíre delusional.

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2024, 05:32:14 PM »
If you think Elon Muskís motivations are anything but to make money, youíre delusional.

I think you are speaking out of uninformed bias rather than a good objective opinion.  Making money appears to be a means to an end for him rather than the primary goal.  If you actually want to know the truth on the subject, which I suspect isn't the case, (I think your primary objective was to try to prove someone wrong on the internet), do a little digging.  Lots of evidence that making money isn't the biggest priority.  If so, why continue?  This alone is proof your statement makes no sense.  He has more money than anyone could ever want, need, or spend.  He could park his billions in the S&P500 and make 50 million/day if that was his objective.  Use your brain.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2024, 07:43:17 PM »
If you think Elon Muskís motivations are anything but to make money, youíre delusional.

I think you are speaking out of uninformed bias rather than a good objective opinion.  Making money appears to be a means to an end for him rather than the primary goal.  If you actually want to know the truth on the subject, which I suspect isn't the case, (I think your primary objective was to try to prove someone wrong on the internet), do a little digging.  Lots of evidence that making money isn't the biggest priority.  If so, why continue?  This alone is proof your statement makes no sense.  He has more money than anyone could ever want, need, or spend.  He could park his billions in the S&P500 and make 50 million/day if that was his objective.  Use your brain.

Stop wasting everyone's time talking about Teslas on a thread that isn't about Teslas.  I'll happily buy a non-Tesla EV that meets my needs and meets my TCO goals.  "not Tesla" is literally in my OP.  So why are you promoting Teslas on a thread that explicitly ASKS FOR NON TESLA RECS ONLY!

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2024, 05:53:37 PM »
If you think Elon Muskís motivations are anything but to make money, youíre delusional.

I think you are speaking out of uninformed bias rather than a good objective opinion.  Making money appears to be a means to an end for him rather than the primary goal.  If you actually want to know the truth on the subject, which I suspect isn't the case, (I think your primary objective was to try to prove someone wrong on the internet), do a little digging.  Lots of evidence that making money isn't the biggest priority.  If so, why continue?  This alone is proof your statement makes no sense.  He has more money than anyone could ever want, need, or spend.  He could park his billions in the S&P500 and make 50 million/day if that was his objective.  Use your brain.

Stop wasting everyone's time talking about Teslas on a thread that isn't about Teslas.  I'll happily buy a non-Tesla EV that meets my needs and meets my TCO goals.  "not Tesla" is literally in my OP.  So why are you promoting Teslas on a thread that explicitly ASKS FOR NON TESLA RECS ONLY!

Thought perhaps the mind wasn't totally closed to a possible good/better solution.  I was mistaken.

achvfi

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2024, 12:44:28 PM »
Thought perhaps the mind wasn't totally closed to a possible good/better solution.  I was mistaken.
Sounds like we have new troll on the prowl.
He's just anxious to justify his own $59,000 purchase of a Model Y, which incidentally is currently available on the Tesla website for a hair under $45,000, before tax credits.
Wow, what a waste of resources! spending $59000 on a compact car like model 3. His dedication to that brand is clear.