Author Topic: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?  (Read 4901 times)

Mr. Green

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2024, 03:22:51 PM »
Consider taking a 2019-2023 Hyundai Santa Fe out for a test drive. The base version with the non-turbo engine gets 29 Hwy/21 City or something like that. From 2021-2023 a Hybrid version is available that gets 36 mpg combined, thought i'm not sure what the price premium is on hybrid versions in the used market. The Santa Fe has the most car-like ride out of all the SUVs we test drove when we were looking for a new car in 2020. This was important to us because we were used to cars. Not sure how important this might be to the OP. Also, the Santa Fe uses double seals on the doors so road noise was less than a lot of other SUVs we test drove. We got the base 4-cylinder engine which means there's tons of room in the engine bay if I ever decide to DIY some of the maintenance. It's still pretty peppy at speed under 60 mph but above 70 acceleration is not fast so passing can be challenging.

I found the interior to be a nice mix of tech but not too much. Our 2020 model had a smaller screen(6 inches? 8 inches?) and Android Auto/Apple CarPlay but all of the regular car functions were still manual buttons, which I like.

Not sure if these cars are dings for insurance because of the whole Hyundai/Kia theft thing. Hyundais had engine immobilizers by 2020 so ours isn't a target of theft per se but I've heard other people say that Hyundais in general are an issue with insurance as a result. Our insurance is quite reasonable, so this isn't an issue where we live.

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2024, 03:39:30 PM »
Thought perhaps the mind wasn't totally closed to a possible good/better solution.  I was mistaken.
Sounds like we have new troll on the prowl.

Come now, no need to be so childish and name call.  I don't think the OP needs you to be his knight in shining armor.  Legit, I was suggesting that considering an EV might be the lesser of the two evils compared to buying and driving a new gas car for a decade or more, which is also supporting the CEO's of companies who have no interest in participating in the transition to EV's, or doing so reluctantly.  The OP has every right to dismiss the suggestion, which he clearly did.  I couldn't care less, other than I thought it was worth a shot to see if his mind was open about the subject.  Based on his all caps angry response, it clearly was not.  He asked why I made the suggestion, and I honestly replied that I was checking to see if there was an open mind on the topic.

Once I realized his mind was firmly closed on the topic, my suggestion is just about any used PHEV that meets his needs.

Feel free to reply constructively to the topic rather than argue.

DadJokes

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2024, 05:44:53 PM »
Thought perhaps the mind wasn't totally closed to a possible good/better solution.  I was mistaken.
Sounds like we have new troll on the prowl.

Come now, no need to be so childish and name call.  I don't think the OP needs you to be his knight in shining armor.  Legit, I was suggesting that considering an EV might be the lesser of the two evils compared to buying and driving a new gas car for a decade or more, which is also supporting the CEO's of companies who have no interest in participating in the transition to EV's, or doing so reluctantly.  The OP has every right to dismiss the suggestion, which he clearly did.  I couldn't care less, other than I thought it was worth a shot to see if his mind was open about the subject.  Based on his all caps angry response, it clearly was not.  He asked why I made the suggestion, and I honestly replied that I was checking to see if there was an open mind on the topic.

Once I realized his mind was firmly closed on the topic, my suggestion is just about any used PHEV that meets his needs.

Feel free to reply constructively to the topic rather than argue.

Sorry, did achvfi "hurt your feelings?" I guess you and Elon's haters have something in common.

I couldn't help myself.



OP, thanks for making this thread. I've been following along as I am also mulling over my next vehicle. I currently drive my wife's 2012 GMC Terrain. A Corolla or similar sedan just doesn't have the storage space for my needs I'm generally toting around a lot of sports equipment, a wagon, a cooler, and more, and my Ford Fusion just can't hold it all. Whatever I get is definitely going to be a hybrid at minimum. I drive enough miles that fuel mileage is important to me. I've been leaning toward a Toyota RAV4 hybrid, simply because Toyota tops Consumer Reports reliability rankings.

Sandi_k

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2024, 06:27:12 PM »
Thought perhaps the mind wasn't totally closed to a possible good/better solution.  I was mistaken.
Sounds like we have new troll on the prowl.

Come now, no need to be so childish and name call. 

This from the poster who began a thread calling people "dumb" if they don't buy a PHEV.

Pot. Kettle...

Look, people are allowed their preferences, including where they spend their money. Deciding that you are the only person on this board who has thought deeply about this issue is ludicrous.

And, as you've had to admit, the math does not always work out - either for an EV, or a PHEV. So please - dial down your EV passion and vocabulary. The techbro vibe is strong.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2024, 06:35:54 PM »
Thought perhaps the mind wasn't totally closed to a possible good/better solution.  I was mistaken.
Sounds like we have new troll on the prowl.

Come now, no need to be so childish and name call.  I don't think the OP needs you to be his knight in shining armor.  Legit, I was suggesting that considering an EV might be the lesser of the two evils compared to buying and driving a new gas car for a decade or more, which is also supporting the CEO's of companies who have no interest in participating in the transition to EV's, or doing so reluctantly.  The OP has every right to dismiss the suggestion, which he clearly did.  I couldn't care less, other than I thought it was worth a shot to see if his mind was open about the subject.  Based on his all caps angry response, it clearly was not.  He asked why I made the suggestion, and I honestly replied that I was checking to see if there was an open mind on the topic.

Once I realized his mind was firmly closed on the topic, my suggestion is just about any used PHEV that meets his needs.

Feel free to reply constructively to the topic rather than argue.

Sorry, did achvfi "hurt your feelings?" I guess you and Elon's haters have something in common.

I couldn't help myself.



OP, thanks for making this thread. I've been following along as I am also mulling over my next vehicle. I currently drive my wife's 2012 GMC Terrain. A Corolla or similar sedan just doesn't have the storage space for my needs I'm generally toting around a lot of sports equipment, a wagon, a cooler, and more, and my Ford Fusion just can't hold it all. Whatever I get is definitely going to be a hybrid at minimum. I drive enough miles that fuel mileage is important to me. I've been leaning toward a Toyota RAV4 hybrid, simply because Toyota tops Consumer Reports reliability rankings.


stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2024, 06:42:58 PM »
So the previous post and this one are some of my car math.

My 03 'rolla is the last one.  You can see over 22 years TCO annualized to a little over $3k.  But it's too small these days.

Old Highlanders actually look like a good deal.  I really dig that they're pre infotainment console and largely pre-computerized in a lot of ways, and the tan interiors are truly tan.  There's a pretty nice 05 that's really clean inside, but has 180k miles.  Despite the relatively bad fuel economy, they're sort of inexpensive to operate, all thinks considered.  I even factored in $2k one year for a tranny rebuild. 

For the poster a couple posts above ("DadJokes") talking hybrids, the price premium and fuel economy kind of wash out in my calculations.  The Maverick is a good example, and it's a relatively inexpensive hybrid. 

If EVs were bigger and not range constrained (again, frequent 500 miles trips in a year), I'd go for them if the math worked, but for bigger ones you're well into the 30k's, and I did have a VW ID4 on the list whose math was in the upper $4ks after tax rebate. 

It's not as straightforward as it seems.   

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2024, 06:02:28 PM »
I think I saw it mentioned once, but for a +1:

2020ish Kia Niro PHEV.  I see examples with less than 30k miles for ~$20k.  $16k if AGI is below $150k, less if your state offers rebates for PHEV.

27 miles electric range, if this would be of benefit to you.  Looks like 42-50 mpg depending on highway/city.

Not a Toyota perhaps, but great warranty....10 year 100k on powertrain and hybrid components.

They are a pretty small SUV overall but cargo capacity looks reasonable.

This option might be competitive from a TCO perspective. 

« Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 06:13:47 PM by EchoStache »

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2024, 08:12:42 PM »
I think I saw it mentioned once, but for a +1:

2020ish Kia Niro PHEV.  I see examples with less than 30k miles for ~$20k.  $16k if AGI is below $150k, less if your state offers rebates for PHEV.

27 miles electric range, if this would be of benefit to you.  Looks like 42-50 mpg depending on highway/city.

Not a Toyota perhaps, but great warranty....10 year 100k on powertrain and hybrid components.

They are a pretty small SUV overall but cargo capacity looks reasonable.

This option might be competitive from a TCO perspective.

Althought the 03 Corolla is "officially" 13.6 cu ft, when actually measured it is 19.1 cu ft of usable space, only 0.3 cu ft less than a Camry.  The Niro is 15 below the top of the back seat, and up to 19.4 including the vertical space (which comes at the cost of visibility).  That makes it no better than the existing Corolla, cargo volume wise. 

I've been looking at Gen 1 Highlanders the past couple days, because they are VERY similar to the Corollas I own, mechanically, and have very little computer nonsense compared to new vehicles.  Exceptionally nice interiors, if you like that late 90s/early 00s Toyota simplicity.  New CV joints and suspension kits are like $1k in total, and if you need a transmission, they're pretty easy to find for about $1k.  With some repairs factored in, TCO on those is around $4k/yr, assuming a 6-7 year ownership starting around 180k miles.

That generation of Highlander appears to have maybe 21 cu ft to the back seats, plus a bit more above - looks like it'd be easy to hit 30 in a pinch behind the 2nd row.  Plenty of room with the seats folded, and roof racks. 

Obviously they're getting old, but it seems easy-ish to find well cared for examples. 

flow321

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2024, 09:53:45 PM »
I say get a 2013 CRV. I have one and it gets me and my family everywhere

EchoStache

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2024, 08:47:19 AM »
I think I saw it mentioned once, but for a +1:

2020ish Kia Niro PHEV.  I see examples with less than 30k miles for ~$20k.  $16k if AGI is below $150k, less if your state offers rebates for PHEV.

27 miles electric range, if this would be of benefit to you.  Looks like 42-50 mpg depending on highway/city.

Not a Toyota perhaps, but great warranty....10 year 100k on powertrain and hybrid components.

They are a pretty small SUV overall but cargo capacity looks reasonable.

This option might be competitive from a TCO perspective.

Althought the 03 Corolla is "officially" 13.6 cu ft, when actually measured it is 19.1 cu ft of usable space, only 0.3 cu ft less than a Camry.  The Niro is 15 below the top of the back seat, and up to 19.4 including the vertical space (which comes at the cost of visibility).  That makes it no better than the existing Corolla, cargo volume wise. 

I've been looking at Gen 1 Highlanders the past couple days, because they are VERY similar to the Corollas I own, mechanically, and have very little computer nonsense compared to new vehicles.  Exceptionally nice interiors, if you like that late 90s/early 00s Toyota simplicity.  New CV joints and suspension kits are like $1k in total, and if you need a transmission, they're pretty easy to find for about $1k.  With some repairs factored in, TCO on those is around $4k/yr, assuming a 6-7 year ownership starting around 180k miles.

That generation of Highlander appears to have maybe 21 cu ft to the back seats, plus a bit more above - looks like it'd be easy to hit 30 in a pinch behind the 2nd row.  Plenty of room with the seats folded, and roof racks. 

Obviously they're getting old, but it seems easy-ish to find well cared for examples.

1)You are correct, the Niro is not roomy.  Sounds like the cargo capacity rules it out.  Would rooftop storage or hitch storage solve the issue? (I'm not sure it would for me unless I already had the car, which I do) 50mpg would contribute substantially to keeping TCO low saving about $560/year.

2)Would a used Model Y from a non Tesla dealer(i.e. no $ to Tesla or Musk) warrant consideration?  If so, TCO would be quite low, and you wouldn't be burning fossil fuel for another decade.

3) Used Chrysler Pacifica PHEV.  Im seeing 2021 models for under $25k(threshold for $4,000 used PHEV point of sale tax credit) with reasonable miles i.e. under 60k.  This could get your initial purchase price down close to $20k or lower depending on your state incentives, if any.  32 ft^3 cargo, over 30mpg highway, much higher around town given its electric only range.  IMO, this option seems the best fit for you given your priorities, and TCO will be driven quite low if electric rates are reasonable and/or solar.

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2024, 10:26:04 AM »
Quote
1)You are correct, the Niro is not roomy.  Sounds like the cargo capacity rules it out.  Would rooftop storage or hitch storage solve the issue? (I'm not sure it would for me unless I already had the car, which I do) 50mpg would contribute substantially to keeping TCO low saving about $560/year.

In theory those are great ideas but in practice not great when the travel part of your trip includes overnight stays, since you're opening up your stuff to theft.  Hitch boxes are great for MPG versus roof racks, for example, but then I guess bikes have to go on the roof?  Trunk access?  Things can get wonky.  Not a dealbreaker in an of itself.  But a car like the Niro would be a good eventual replacement for our newer Corolla, whenever it gets ratty and starts getting unreliable.  Assuming the Niro ends up having a good long term reliability record.  But honestly any EV that starts over $30k has a difficult path to hitting my TCO target below $4k because depreciation is an unknown, and the potential for un-DIY-able electronic failure issues seems high.  For example, I just found a very well maintained '15 Explorer for $7k, 175k miles on it - looks clean in the images, and it's mostly highway miles.  As long as the engine and transmission are operating smoothly, proper maintenance can keep that vehicle going for another decade, and annual TCO is $4k, despite having 20mpg fuel economy.  It's quiet and spacious as hell inside.  Also on ICE vehicles, I know how to diagnose and repair stuff when it goes bad including peripheral engine stuff and sensors.  The other issue is just range on the highway.  I like to get where I'm going, and that means 4 hours between stops no matter the season.  HEV/PHEV is a potentially excellent solution, if the initial price is right.

Quote
2)Would a used Model Y from a non Tesla dealer(i.e. no $ to Tesla or Musk) warrant consideration?  If so, TCO would be quite low, and you wouldn't be burning fossil fuel for another decade.

No way.  Every used Tesla sale puts upward price pressure on new Tesla sales, and that makes Elon Musk more money, and Elon Musk is the last person I want to enrich. 

Quote
3) Used Chrysler Pacifica PHEV.  Im seeing 2021 models for under $25k(threshold for $4,000 used PHEV point of sale tax credit) with reasonable miles i.e. under 60k.  This could get your initial purchase price down close to $20k or lower depending on your state incentives, if any.  32 ft^3 cargo, over 30mpg highway, much higher around town given its electric only range.  IMO, this option seems the best fit for you given your priorities, and TCO will be driven quite low if electric rates are reasonable and/or solar.

Although I realize Stellantis PHEVs might be okay, I can't get around their association with Mopar products, which are consistently bottom of the bottom in reliability.  I also don't see any used PHEV Pacificas anywhere near me. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 10:33:38 AM by stealthwealth »

Paper Chaser

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2024, 10:48:23 AM »
So the previous post and this one are some of my car math.

My 03 'rolla is the last one.  You can see over 22 years TCO annualized to a little over $3k.  But it's too small these days.

For the poster a couple posts above ("DadJokes") talking hybrids, the price premium and fuel economy kind of wash out in my calculations.  The Maverick is a good example, and it's a relatively inexpensive hybrid.

I have some questions about your Maverick hybrid estimates here, and how you arrived at these numbers.

$29k purchase price- Are you targeting certain features to get this price? You can get new Maverick hybrids for less, and certainly can get gently used ones for well under that number. This alone could erase any TCO difference with the old Corolla, and even put the Maverick hybrid well ahead. If you appreciate the more simple interiors of 15-25 year old Toyotas, I'd think that less expensive trim levels of Maverick would probably be a better fit anyway.

Fuel economy- Your Corolla is rated at 25 city/34 highway/28 combined. You're seeing 29mpg per your spreadsheet. The Maverick hybrid is rated at 42 city/33 highway/37 combined, yet you're estimating just 35mpg? If you can exceed the EPA rating by 1mpg with the Corolla, why are you expecting to see 2mpg less than the combined rating with the Maverick hybrid?

The EPA estimates you'd spend $450 less per year (around $0.03/mi) on fuel with the Maverick hybrid than the 03 Corolla:
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47364&id=18604

Maintenance- The Ford/Toyota style of eCVT hybrid transmission has a pretty lengthy and remarkable track record of running just about forever with very little maintenance. Putting the same $200 estimate for annual maintenance for every vehicle ignores the inherent reliability or unreliability of a specific model or drivetrain. The parts could be more expensive than the old Corolla if something does happen, but I'm curious how you're estimating these numbers, and how much confidence you have in their accuracy. Again, even swinging this number by $50/yr can really impact TCO math over a 10-12 year lifespan.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 11:06:08 AM by Paper Chaser »

stealthwealth

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2024, 01:28:59 PM »
So the previous post and this one are some of my car math.

My 03 'rolla is the last one.  You can see over 22 years TCO annualized to a little over $3k.  But it's too small these days.

For the poster a couple posts above ("DadJokes") talking hybrids, the price premium and fuel economy kind of wash out in my calculations.  The Maverick is a good example, and it's a relatively inexpensive hybrid.

I have some questions about your Maverick hybrid estimates here, and how you arrived at these numbers.

$29k purchase price- Are you targeting certain features to get this price? You can get new Maverick hybrids for less, and certainly can get gently used ones for well under that number. This alone could erase any TCO difference with the old Corolla, and even put the Maverick hybrid well ahead. If you appreciate the more simple interiors of 15-25 year old Toyotas, I'd think that less expensive trim levels of Maverick would probably be a better fit anyway.

Fuel economy- Your Corolla is rated at 25 city/34 highway/28 combined. You're seeing 29mpg per your spreadsheet. The Maverick hybrid is rated at 42 city/33 highway/37 combined, yet you're estimating just 35mpg? If you can exceed the EPA rating by 1mpg with the Corolla, why are you expecting to see 2mpg less than the combined rating with the Maverick hybrid?

The EPA estimates you'd spend $450 less per year (around $0.03/mi) on fuel with the Maverick hybrid than the 03 Corolla:
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47364&id=18604

Maintenance- The Ford/Toyota style of eCVT hybrid transmission has a pretty lengthy and remarkable track record of running just about forever with very little maintenance. Putting the same $200 estimate for annual maintenance for every vehicle ignores the inherent reliability or unreliability of a specific model or drivetrain. The parts could be more expensive than the old Corolla if something does happen, but I'm curious how you're estimating these numbers, and how much confidence you have in their accuracy. Again, even swinging this number by $50/yr can really impact TCO math over a 10-12 year lifespan.

Great questions. 

purchase price:  There are no used Mav hybrids anywhere near me and very few bare bones in inventory.  There are features I want (bedliner, tonneau, a couple other items) that push it up.  It was only the first year that was crazy cheap on the hybrids.  Oh, and delivery charge.   

MPG:  I'm overestimating the 'rolla because it's been right at 30mpg most of its life.  The first 5 years I was consistently averaging mid/upper 30mpgs on a tank.  The past couple years it's been dipping below 30.  For any new vehicle I prefer to underestimate and/or or look at user data mpg data, so that's the discrepancy. 

Maintenance:  It's all just guesses, and I assume most people don't know how to diagnose problems or tighten a belt or turn a wrench, so they pay way more than necessary.  The 'rolla is based on my actual maintenance.  I throw in $500 here and there for tires, and $200-250 most post-warranty years for the DIY kind of stuff I do myself (new starters, belts, transmission flush, brakes, starter, sensors, coils, etc), but zeros the first few years.  I do have higher numbers on older/used vehicles.  My familiarity with working on '97-2011 Toyotas makes those super cheap and easy for me.  Kind of a non answer but the best answer I have.  I'm leery of anything that I can't DIY. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 01:43:31 PM by stealthwealth »

Paper Chaser

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2024, 03:38:17 AM »
In my experience, the best way to find the best deal on high demand vehicles is to test drive local examples to confirm they meet your expectations, and then use the internet to find the best deal. A reasonable drive or flight can save you thousands of dollars on the purchase. Or, you might even be able to use internet listings as negotiation leverage with a seller closer to home.

I'm seeing ~600 hybrid Mavs for sale under $29k nationwide:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/all-cars/hybrid/cars-under-29000/ford/maverick/wakarusa-ks?newSearch=true&searchRadius=0&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&zip=66546

That site lets you filter search by features, location, price range, miles, etc

Encinoman45

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2024, 01:51:37 PM »
Rav4 ICE 2022 and up would be my pick. Reliable 2.5 NA 4cylinder and 8 speed trans. Super fuel economy in the high 30s highway. Dual Injection. 2019-2021 have roof rail leaking issues with a dubious TSB to fix. This was quietly redesigned for 2022 and some of the torque vectoring AWD systems on the Adventure trim had some issues in early years. The Hybrids have issues with the main power cable corroding in areas with salt on roads costing 4-6K to replace out of warranty. Google Rav4 cablegate. But as said 2022 and up ICE is super solid with the all new redesign bugs worked out.

CRV with the 1.5 turbo I would avoid. Fuel dilution issues and reports of bad head gaskets are starting to come up with higher mileage and I dislike CVT trans.

CX5 are decent but a little cramped with tiny infotainment screens. I also dislike Direct Injection only due to carbon buildup on valves eventually. Mazdas are also notorious for rust issues if exposed to salt.

Forester I would possibly consider only if in a heavy snow area due to the superior AWD system. Otherwise I'm not a fan of the boxer engines prone to headgasket failure, direct injection and CVT transmissions.

I wouln't trust any Hyundai or Kias due to their horrible track record.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 02:05:42 PM by Encinoman45 »

obstinate

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2024, 10:51:02 AM »
I know Sienna was mentioned upthread. I thought I should throw in my two cents.

I deeply love my Sienna. We are super rich so we splashed out for a max trim new one last year. It's great. But a new LE is only $37k, and the AWD only adds a couple thousand. Used LE joints are available near me for $30k: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/7155a304-c313-490f-aa9c-73c6a8a953ce/. This price is inflated because in NYC you can get a taxi medallion automatically with one of these after converting it to handicap accessible. In other parts of the country it may be cheaper.

It's important to remember that used prices are asking price. Subject to negotiation.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 10:56:04 AM by obstinate »

Car Jack

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Re: RAV4, CRV, Forester or something else?
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2024, 11:27:10 AM »
Subaru Crosstrek or Impreza 5 door.  If you buy used, 2023 and earlier could be had with a 6 speed manual (5 in the Impreza).  Either manual or CVT, it'll get over 30 mpg (I have both).  All wheel drive.  With the roof rack, you have the ability to expand your cargo hauling.  This was me picking up Jeep parts yesterday.


 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!