Author Topic: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum  (Read 7969 times)

MayDay

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Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« on: July 09, 2021, 08:53:59 PM »
I'm looking for stories and conversation about quitting or giving ultimatums, or something similar.

I'm at my wit's end with my job and I'm going to tell my boss something next week. Either that I quit, or that I'm looking, or that in order to keep me she has to do _______. Not sure yet what direction I'll go.

We have FU money and I'm sick of being stressed about work so I'm just done. I'm willing to risk that she fires me on the spot or that it hurts my career at this company, because I'm at the point of leaving anyway.

For reference I'm an engineering manager.

Stories, advice, or suggestions?

pasadenafr

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2021, 10:15:44 PM »
Here's 78 pages (and counting) of Epic FU money stories for your sleepless nights :)

ketchup

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2021, 10:48:32 PM »
I was in a similar position in March.  I was manager of a department of three, then in December they (with very very short notice to me as a short-sighted cost-cutting measure) let one of my guys go and suddenly I had way more on my plate.  Deadlines slipped, I barely felt like I was treading water, lots of stress, and bullshit from upper management about stuff not getting done.  I was also getting shit about asking to work from home ever (I'm so sorry that my mile long driveway was 100% snowed in), or taking a day off (PTO that I was fully entitled to) here and there to help accommodate my wife's business, which was making way more than I was.  It was stupid. 

I didn't exactly have FU money, but we had just sold two houses last winter at COVID-inflated prices, and my wife's business was booming, so I was definitely in a position of strength.  I'd worked at the company for over ten years, and had built up plenty of institutional knowledge. With that with my other guy gone, I was the only source of most of it.

After a particularly stupid week, I decided fuck it and handed my boss a resignation letter at 8:45am on a Friday.  He sputtered and basically said "How can we make you stay?"  I said I'd have a proposal for him on Monday.  The fear in that man's eyes is a sight I will never forget.

I asked for more money (always ask for more money), 3 days a week remote and 2 days a week on-site, me moving into the role of the guy they let go, and them to hire a new manager of the department.  They countered with yes to everything, but 2 days a week on-site, and only one remote. 

Sure thing, boss. 

Their own weird bias against remote work cost them 40% of my time for no less money.  And the fact that the place would probably crater without me, since the only other person in my department would have surely left if I did, leaving them with a whole weird specialized department to restaff.  They suddenly realized that they needed me a lot more than I needed them, to the point that they outbid my dream list.  Also, I'm good at my job.  I'm fucking worth it and they know that.

My life has improved drastically.  60% less commuting, 4 day weekends every weekend, more money, better sleep.  I can actually get shit done at work now.  The new manager is a bit of a derp, but since I don't take him too seriously it doesn't really bother me.  He might be the manager but I'm in charge.  And I don't have to go to the circlejerk groupthink-factory cult circle management meetings.

An ultimatum wouldn't have worked in my case.  I thought about doing that, but actually quitting and making them beg for it was the only way to get anywhere.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 10:50:26 PM by ketchup »

pasadenafr

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2021, 11:02:30 PM »
I asked for more money (always ask for more money), 3 days a week remote and 2 days a week on-site, me moving into the role of the guy they let go, and them to hire a new manager of the department.  They countered with yes to everything, but 2 days a week on-site, and only one remote. 

Sure thing, boss. 

Their own weird bias against remote work cost them 40% of my time for no less money. 

Wait. So you went from working 5 days a week to 3 days, and they're paying you *more money*? Damn.

An ultimatum wouldn't have worked in my case.  I thought about doing that, but actually quitting and making them beg for it was the only way to get anywhere.

Ultimatums don't usually work. They always think you're bluffing.

Bee21

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2021, 11:33:25 PM »
Are you applying for other jobs? You def should.

Is there anything they can do to make you stay?more pay, better work conditions,  more flexibility? My husband is in a similar field, and when he finally resigned, several members of management called with counter offers to make him stay. He left anyway bc he was so sick of the place (lots of red tape and  bureaucracy which will never change).

gooki

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2021, 04:27:18 AM »
I agree with not going down the ultimatum rote. If you like the place just not some of the work start saying no to the shit you don't like.

Better off to give your notice, and leave the ball in their court.
And when the indicate they want to keep you, that's when you pull out your list of demands. Even better if you have another job lined up.


MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2021, 05:41:06 AM »
I have trouble just not doing parts of my job because I care too much. I realize that's on me but I would rather just quit then do a shitty job and make people with no control over the situation miserable (entry level folks, shop floor employees, etc).

What I need to stay is a different job entirely (possibly still within the company). But I should figure out this weekend exactly what that is. 6 months ago I told my boss I wanted a new role and she was on board.... I am thinking now is the time for an actual deadline. That is the type of ultimatum I was thinking.

I am job searching. I started last weekend and will continue this weekend.

We also can afford for me to never work again, and there are lots of other managers at the company who would give heat references so I guess I just don't really care anymore. I don't want to be unprofessional, but I also have no problem either just quitting, or telling her something along the lines of, fyi I'm going to quit in about a month of I don't have a new job by then. Or.... Idk. Something else. I need to figure out what, exactly, though.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2021, 06:12:34 AM »
I thought of one more thing: here is what I really want my ultimatum to be: I was 3-6 months off, unpaid is fine, to truly have a break from work. I know myself and my ideal life would be work for 18-24 months, 6 months off, repeat.

That's why I only just now started looking for jobs.... I don't really want another job, I want 6 months off work!

Maybe I'll just ask my boss for that. Should go over really well lololol.

jac941

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2021, 08:42:12 AM »
If you don’t like what you’re doing and want 3-6 month off, just quit. You can always find a new job. If you don’t burn the bridge, they might even hire you back.

Every time I’ve quit a job and taken 3-6 months off, I’ve come out way ahead in the next position. Just make sure you do a little networking while you’re off - occasional coffee or lunch with folks so they don’t forget you and let you know if something interesting comes up. This is why I have FU money.

ender

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2021, 08:49:57 AM »
I have trouble just not doing parts of my job because I care too much. I realize that's on me but I would rather just quit then do a shitty job and make people with no control over the situation miserable (entry level folks, shop floor employees, etc).

What I need to stay is a different job entirely (possibly still within the company). But I should figure out this weekend exactly what that is. 6 months ago I told my boss I wanted a new role and she was on board.... I am thinking now is the time for an actual deadline. That is the type of ultimatum I was thinking.

I am job searching. I started last weekend and will continue this weekend.

We also can afford for me to never work again, and there are lots of other managers at the company who would give heat references so I guess I just don't really care anymore. I don't want to be unprofessional, but I also have no problem either just quitting, or telling her something along the lines of, fyi I'm going to quit in about a month of I don't have a new job by then. Or.... Idk. Something else. I need to figure out what, exactly, though.

Quitting a job isn't unprofessional.

Also, I empathize with your caring too much. What helps me is to write down everything that I am responsible for and then organize it based on priority.

Then, work on what is important at the top and whatever I don't get to just doesn't happen.

Loren Ver

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2021, 10:04:35 AM »
Sabbaticals are totally a thing, why not ask for one of those?  If you don't care if they say no and you leave the job, ask for what you actually want.

"I want 6 months off and a different job when I come back."

"No"

"Okay, then I am leaving."

Or

"Yes"

"Great, see you in 6 months"

What is there to lose?  Sounds like you are the one with all the power....

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2021, 12:06:10 PM »
Loren Ver, that's what I will likely do. Going to continue bouncing that around in my head for the next few days.

I have a meeting with my boss Tuesday afternoon, so I have until then to decide exactly what I want to say.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2021, 01:14:41 PM »
OP, I agree with the sabbatical idea and I’ll give you a frame that might help: your mental health. My suggestion would be to book a session with a therapist or counselor to discuss stress at work and share that you’re so stressed you’re feeling like it’s impacting performance and you need to take an unpaid sabbatical to recover, for your health. Then I’d get a note from the therapist and approach HR and share that because of mental health, you kindly request a 6 month unpaid sabbatical (or you could apply all of your vacation and sick leave to the sabbatical and be unpaid for the rest). Then navigate the system with HR, reminding them of maintaining confidentiality regarding your medical condition. You may only need to say to your boss that you have to attend to an urgent personal medical issue, without giving any details. Maybe you leave on the spot, maybe you take a week to tie up work and handover. I wouldn’t share the details with anyone. Also, I wouldn’t share or boast on social media, especially if you have coworkers connected. Then maybe consider still seeing the therapist during your time off to address your feelings of stress and burnout. Also, consider a career coach who might be able to help you work on a new career path with another employer or how to make your current job better when you return.

Btw, nothing I’m suggesting is about faking anything. You are stressed and most likely suffering from burnout from what you shared. All the best.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2021, 01:40:02 PM »
Mr that's different, I have been considering if I could take 11 weeks of FMLA.

I am pursuing counseling for exactly what you said. Just need to actually find one.....

RedmondStash

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2021, 08:18:36 PM »
I've left several jobs in several ways because of stress.

Yeah, ultimatums don't usually work. Kinda depends on your manager, but company cultures are as they are, and companies don't change easily. Generally they don't appreciate when you point out that the emperor has no clothes.

What I've finally come to is to politely give notice, giving no details as to the real reasons why unless I really trust someone in management. I usually say something polite and that I've accepted an opportunity elsewhere, and then decline to specify where I'm going -- hey, sitting at home petting the dog is accepting another opportunity. I did once explain to people that I was leaving to do absolutely nothing -- and they all understood and were a bit envious. A company that burns you out is probably burning out other people too.

The one thing I'd caution you against is burning bridges with too much raw truth. Companies and their upper managers cherish their dysfunctions, and resent attempts to change them. I have found diplomacy to be a better policy than honesty.

Taking time off to decompress is a wonderful and fortunate thing to do. I hope it works out for you.

Good luck.

norajean

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2021, 08:27:28 PM »
How about just a normal conversation with your boss about everything.  Let it all out and see where it goes from there.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2021, 10:07:20 PM »
How about just a normal conversation with your boss about everything.  Let it all out and see where it goes from there.

Your boss isn’t entitled to know your life story and most organizations are focused on themselves, not the individual, so they only do what they’re legally obligated to do. Once you know this, you play within those boundaries.

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2021, 03:36:39 AM »
I personally would give an ultimatum with a job in hand to go to which shouldn't be hard in your position. And if you give the ultimatum in a professional manner and not get personal I think that would serve you best. If your truly miserable it needs to be addressed before it just continues to get worse so the best time is now. Just my $.02

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2021, 05:38:58 AM »
How about just a normal conversation with your boss about everything.  Let it all out and see where it goes from there.

I did that 6 months ago. We also had several interim conversations. Now I'm ready for either a concrete change or to just be done.

Metalcat

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2021, 07:27:53 AM »
Okay, first, you really need to change your mindset about what it means to communicate your needs and boundaries to your employer.

The fact that you're even calling it an ultimatum and feeling like quitting is a threat is a BIG part of the problem.

Communicating your needs and limitations is just part of being a.responsible staff member. And people leave jobs all the time, for all sorts of reasons, so this should not be treated as a threat.

Now, you may have shitty management who are terrible at listening to your concerns and who do treat people quitting as some kind of insult, but crappy management shouldn't change how YOU approach your job, or what YOUR professionalism looks like.

So yes, talk to your management about how your current work conditions are completely unsustainable for you. That's not an ultimatum, that's just responsible communication and that *is* your responsibility to communicate.

Your potential leaving isn't a threat, it's the natural consequence of you continuing to perform in an unsustainable way.

Now, if you do your part to communicate effectively that your limits have been exceeded and that your current situation is unsustainable, then they will either value you enough in your role to accomodate you, or they won't and that will communicate to you that they are okay with you leaving.

If they're okay with you leaving because they expect someone to be sustainably able to do what you've been doing, then fine, you have every right to leave a role that isn't a good fit for your skills and capacity.

Suffice to say, you have clearly internalized A LOT of work bullshit. That's not a criticism, pretty much everyone does it until they learn not to. Boundaries and effective professional communication are a learnable skill. I HIGHLY recommend that you seek out resources to learn how to better protect yourself and better maintain your boundaries within the workplace.

It's not actually your employer's job to prevent you from experiencing burnout, it's your job to communicate the limits and boundaries that are being pushed too hard and burning you out, and their job to assess if you are valuable enough to try and retain.

I've had some staff where I would happily bend over backwards to give them whatever they need to thrive, and I've had other staff who I just waited to get a resignation letter from because I was fine with them leaving.

So if you aren't valuable to your management, then no one will care what you want or if you leave. They'll just be happy that you worked yourself into the ground for them until the end and didn't make too much of a fuss about moving on.

If you are valuable to your management, then they will care about the possibility of driving you out, and you should emphasize this value and negotiated more appropriate work conditions, or a sabbatical, or both.

In business, no matter what your role, you need to think and act like the executive of your own business, a business that has one resource: you, and that resource is subcontracted out to one client: your employer.

Your client (employer) has control over the role, but the executive (you), has control over the resource (also you). Your primary responsibility is to serve YouCorp, not ThemCorp. You have to keep the YouCorp executive happy, and you do that by doing as well as you can while contracted out to ThemCorp. However, if the only resource YouCorp has starts burning out on an unreasonable contract position, then the executive needs to step in and manage the situation with the client, because burnout can ruin the resource.

So approach this situation as the executive of YouCorp, not the subordinate of ThemCorp. You are the only resource you have, you have to manage that resource responsibly.

If you don't know how to think, communicate, and manage like an executive, then learn. As I said, these are learnable skills.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2021, 06:30:43 AM »
Update:  I met with my boss on Tues afternoon.  I basically just said "I'm really unhappy and I can't keep doing this, I am tired of being miserable every day at work". 

She asked a lot of follow-up questions about why, and I could tell she was pretty nervous that I was just going to bolt. 

She said she is working on a couple things and getting really close, but that she will need to change a few things.  Reading between the lines and based on other things she has said, I was/am going to get promoted and get another group added to mine.  I would (eventually, hopefully) get a manager underneath me to manage my current group.  But those kind of things are ALWAYS delayed.  It is budgeted for a certain month, but then gets pushed out a few months, and then the month it actually happens is just starting the HR process to open a req.  Then posting it, waiting for applicants, interviewing, putting offers together, and finally once an offer letter is signed someone usually has 2-4 weeks before they can actually start.  And I DON'T want to get stuck keeping my current job + getting a whole new job, lol, for like a year.  Hard pass. 

So we left it at she is going to work on options. 

She has a meeting in 2 weeks with the senior leadership team, and again reading between the lines I think that is when official decisions will be made.  So I am giving it 4 weeks, and depending on what happens in the next 4 weeks, I will quit at that point if I want to.   

Countdown to Mon August 9th, which will be the longest I wait!

In the meantime I have an appt with a therapist in 2 weeks. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2021, 10:10:57 AM »
Sounds like a reasonable plan of action.

From my experience, if someone threatens to quit but they do not have another job lined up, they won't be taken seriously. Based on typical institutional policies an organization can make a bigger change for someone to keep them if that person has another legitimate offer in writing.

scantee

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2021, 10:49:14 AM »
Do you want to get promoted and have another group? It sounds like that may be a satisfactory solution for awhile but might compound your complaints over the long run.

My experience is similar to @clarkfan1979: these requests aren’t taken super seriously unless the person formally resigns. There isn’t any downside to continuing to look for new jobs over the next four weeks. Either nothing comes of a different job and everything pans out as planned with your current job, in which case, great. Or, you get a new job and you can decide if it is better for you or use it as a negotiating tool at your current job. I suspect that if they really want to keep with you and you go to them saying you’re quitting unless they can offer something better, they’ll all of sudden be able to give you what you want on a much faster timeline than before.

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2021, 11:29:33 AM »
Reading between the lines and based on other things she has said, I was/am going to get promoted and get another group added to mine.  I would (eventually, hopefully) get a manager underneath me to manage my current group.
Your boss wants to give you extra work, with the possibility that at some point in the future you might get a new member of staff to help you with that extra work.

  But those kind of things are ALWAYS delayed.  It is budgeted for a certain month, but then gets pushed out a few months, and then the month it actually happens is just starting the HR process to open a req.  Then posting it, waiting for applicants, interviewing, putting offers together, and finally once an offer letter is signed someone usually has 2-4 weeks before they can actually start.
You are basically working for an overly bureacratic organisation and meaningful change that helps with your stress levels, if it ever happens, is months away.
 
She has a meeting in 2 weeks with the senior leadership team, and again reading between the lines I think that is when official decisions will be made.
Your boss is telling you here that she is basically powerless to make changes within the organisation that will help you.

So I am giving it 4 weeks, and depending on what happens in the next 4 weeks, I will quit at that point if I want to.   Countdown to Mon August 9th, which will be the longest I wait! In the meantime I have an appt with a therapist in 2 weeks.
Let me quote back to you your first post in this thread: "I'm at my wit's end with my job and I'm going to tell my boss something next week. Either that I quit, or that I'm looking, or that in order to keep me she has to do _______. Not sure yet what direction I'll go.  We have FU money and I'm sick of being stressed about work so I'm just done. I'm willing to risk that she fires me on the spot or that it hurts my career at this company, because I'm at the point of leaving anyway."

You are at your wit's end, you are sick of the stress, the job is affecting you so badly you have made an appointment with a therapist, and you have FU money.

What is it that is still keeping you hanging on for a slow decision by an ineffective manager who wants to give you even more work and stress than you are currently experiencing, to the detriment of your health and wellbeing?


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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2021, 12:24:41 PM »
I'm at my wit's end with my job and I'm going to tell my boss something next week. Either that I quit, or that I'm looking, or that in order to keep me she has to do _______. Not sure yet what direction I'll go.

Get sure about what direction you'll go. DO NOT go in there rambling or without an agenda.

I think the ultimatum will likely get you fired on the spot. I've seen people who were absolutely critical to the business sent packing because they thought they were indispensable. Some of these people were admins and knew the only password to a critical system!

Was life harder after all their knowledge left the building? Yes, but life went on. From many managers' perspectives, life CAN'T go on if they ever develop a habit of caving to employee ultimatums. The ultimatum line would stretch down the hall. People in positions of power got there by accumulating influence, not giving it away to anybody with the gall to gripe.

Why not direct all this energy into finding your next job instead of focusing on something that's not working? It's a lot easier to get the next job when you have a job. Businesses are scrambling right now. You could throw out some YOLO applications for major promotions or career shifts and be surprised how many interviews you get. Talk to a few headhunters with clients looking to poach top performers. Even a lateral move would be intellectually stimulating and may spare you some night and weekend projects because you're just too new to the organization.

Anon-E-Mouze

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2021, 01:07:05 PM »
In business, no matter what your role, you need to think and act like the executive of your own business, a business that has one resource: you, and that resource is subcontracted out to one client: your employer.

Your client (employer) has control over the role, but the executive (you), has control over the resource (also you). Your primary responsibility is to serve YouCorp, not ThemCorp. You have to keep the YouCorp executive happy, and you do that by doing as well as you can while contracted out to ThemCorp. However, if the only resource YouCorp has starts burning out on an unreasonable contract position, then the executive needs to step in and manage the situation with the client, because burnout can ruin the resource.

So approach this situation as the executive of YouCorp, not the subordinate of ThemCorp. You are the only resource you have, you have to manage that resource responsibly.

If you don't know how to think, communicate, and manage like an executive, then learn. As I said, these are learnable skills.

This is some of the best work advice I've ever read. Thanks!

Metalcat

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2021, 01:42:45 PM »
In business, no matter what your role, you need to think and act like the executive of your own business, a business that has one resource: you, and that resource is subcontracted out to one client: your employer.

Your client (employer) has control over the role, but the executive (you), has control over the resource (also you). Your primary responsibility is to serve YouCorp, not ThemCorp. You have to keep the YouCorp executive happy, and you do that by doing as well as you can while contracted out to ThemCorp. However, if the only resource YouCorp has starts burning out on an unreasonable contract position, then the executive needs to step in and manage the situation with the client, because burnout can ruin the resource.

So approach this situation as the executive of YouCorp, not the subordinate of ThemCorp. You are the only resource you have, you have to manage that resource responsibly.

If you don't know how to think, communicate, and manage like an executive, then learn. As I said, these are learnable skills.

This is some of the best work advice I've ever read. Thanks!

People tend to let their employers set their professional priorities for them, this framework helps build parameters that protect the employee's professional priorities *above* those of the employer.

Basically, no one will look out for you like *you*, so you need to establish systems that protect your own needs and priorities in the face of enormous pressure to disregard them.

pasadenafr

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2021, 01:49:57 PM »
In business, no matter what your role, you need to think and act like the executive of your own business, a business that has one resource: you, and that resource is subcontracted out to one client: your employer.

Your client (employer) has control over the role, but the executive (you), has control over the resource (also you). Your primary responsibility is to serve YouCorp, not ThemCorp. You have to keep the YouCorp executive happy, and you do that by doing as well as you can while contracted out to ThemCorp. However, if the only resource YouCorp has starts burning out on an unreasonable contract position, then the executive needs to step in and manage the situation with the client, because burnout can ruin the resource.

So approach this situation as the executive of YouCorp, not the subordinate of ThemCorp. You are the only resource you have, you have to manage that resource responsibly.

If you don't know how to think, communicate, and manage like an executive, then learn. As I said, these are learnable skills.

This is some of the best work advice I've ever read. Thanks!

People tend to let their employers set their professional priorities for them, this framework helps build parameters that protect the employee's professional priorities *above* those of the employer.

Basically, no one will look out for you like *you*, so you need to establish systems that protect your own needs and priorities in the face of enormous pressure to disregard them.

+1000. I sometimes try to explain to my coworkers that the relationship between you and your employer / boss is a business relationship and they need to treat it as such. I'm often amazed at how much people are driven by fear in their interactions with their employers.

It's also very important to approach job interview with that mindset. It's a sales play, and a business negotiation.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2021, 03:19:28 PM »
I told her specifically what I do want, and that I would not just take on the extra group. So ball is in her court. I am ok giving her a month.

I don't know that it is overly beaurocratic..... I'd say it's right in line with big companies. Promotions are by committee. I've never worked somewhere that a manager could just promote on their own.

I am not interested in playing games with other offers, if I quit I'll just quit. This was my good faith attempt to get change, and if it doesn't work then fine. I don't care to spend my limited free time searching for jobs.

Former player to answer your question about what is keeping me here: I am paid well, I generally like my boss, I like the company, prior to my current role I liked the work that I did a lot, I like my coworkers.

mm1970

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2021, 03:42:34 PM »
+1 for @Malcat

And...have you been reading my journal?  I feel like we were separated at birth.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2021, 04:01:47 PM »
+1 for @Malcat

And...have you been reading my journal?  I feel like we were separated at birth.

I haven't in like a year! I'll go find it later tonight or this weekend.

Loren Ver

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2021, 04:14:25 PM »
Glad you took the steps you needed to and now you have a timeline and your boss has some goals.  If she doesn't deliver you know what steps you can take. 

So much better than stewing and waiting to nothing to change.

Good luck with therapy.

former player

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2021, 12:38:56 AM »
Former player to answer your question about what is keeping me here: I am paid well, I generally like my boss, I like the company, prior to my current role I liked the work that I did a lot, I like my coworkers.
Those are all good reasons for staying in a job.  My concern is that they are not good reasons for risking your health.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2021, 05:43:42 AM »
Former player to answer your question about what is keeping me here: I am paid well, I generally like my boss, I like the company, prior to my current role I liked the work that I did a lot, I like my coworkers.
Those are all good reasons for staying in a job.  My concern is that they are not good reasons for risking your health.

I don't disagree but it's a chicken/egg problem. I know myself, I can be anxious and neurotic in any job!

Metalcat

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2021, 07:40:41 AM »
Former player to answer your question about what is keeping me here: I am paid well, I generally like my boss, I like the company, prior to my current role I liked the work that I did a lot, I like my coworkers.
Those are all good reasons for staying in a job.  My concern is that they are not good reasons for risking your health.

I don't disagree but it's a chicken/egg problem. I know myself, I can be anxious and neurotic in any job!

Yeah, but you can choose to work on that.

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2021, 08:01:12 AM »
Former player to answer your question about what is keeping me here: I am paid well, I generally like my boss, I like the company, prior to my current role I liked the work that I did a lot, I like my coworkers.
Those are all good reasons for staying in a job.  My concern is that they are not good reasons for risking your health.

I don't disagree but it's a chicken/egg problem. I know myself, I can be anxious and neurotic in any job!

Yeah, but you can choose to work on that.

Yes. Which is why I noted that I have a therapy appointment.

Metalcat

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2021, 08:22:52 AM »
Former player to answer your question about what is keeping me here: I am paid well, I generally like my boss, I like the company, prior to my current role I liked the work that I did a lot, I like my coworkers.
Those are all good reasons for staying in a job.  My concern is that they are not good reasons for risking your health.

I don't disagree but it's a chicken/egg problem. I know myself, I can be anxious and neurotic in any job!

Yeah, but you can choose to work on that.

Yes. Which is why I noted that I have a therapy appointment.

Fair enough, but you still need to have it as a priority to work on that. The patient dictates the therapy. I've seen people go through years of therapy and never touch what their actual issues are because they didn't believe those issues could be changed.

mistymoney

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2021, 10:28:56 AM »
In business, no matter what your role, you need to think and act like the executive of your own business, a business that has one resource: you, and that resource is subcontracted out to one client: your employer.

Your client (employer) has control over the role, but the executive (you), has control over the resource (also you). Your primary responsibility is to serve YouCorp, not ThemCorp. You have to keep the YouCorp executive happy, and you do that by doing as well as you can while contracted out to ThemCorp. However, if the only resource YouCorp has starts burning out on an unreasonable contract position, then the executive needs to step in and manage the situation with the client, because burnout can ruin the resource.

So approach this situation as the executive of YouCorp, not the subordinate of ThemCorp. You are the only resource you have, you have to manage that resource responsibly.

If you don't know how to think, communicate, and manage like an executive, then learn. As I said, these are learnable skills.

This is some of the best work advice I've ever read. Thanks!

People tend to let their employers set their professional priorities for them, this framework helps build parameters that protect the employee's professional priorities *above* those of the employer.

Basically, no one will look out for you like *you*, so you need to establish systems that protect your own needs and priorities in the face of enormous pressure to disregard them.

+1000. I sometimes try to explain to my coworkers that the relationship between you and your employer / boss is a business relationship and they need to treat it as such. I'm often amazed at how much people are driven by fear in their interactions with their employers.


it's conditioned via the school system, someone's in charge, they have power and you don't, sit and do your work quietly, don't get "in trouble".

Metalcat

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2021, 12:39:50 PM »
In business, no matter what your role, you need to think and act like the executive of your own business, a business that has one resource: you, and that resource is subcontracted out to one client: your employer.

Your client (employer) has control over the role, but the executive (you), has control over the resource (also you). Your primary responsibility is to serve YouCorp, not ThemCorp. You have to keep the YouCorp executive happy, and you do that by doing as well as you can while contracted out to ThemCorp. However, if the only resource YouCorp has starts burning out on an unreasonable contract position, then the executive needs to step in and manage the situation with the client, because burnout can ruin the resource.

So approach this situation as the executive of YouCorp, not the subordinate of ThemCorp. You are the only resource you have, you have to manage that resource responsibly.

If you don't know how to think, communicate, and manage like an executive, then learn. As I said, these are learnable skills.

This is some of the best work advice I've ever read. Thanks!

People tend to let their employers set their professional priorities for them, this framework helps build parameters that protect the employee's professional priorities *above* those of the employer.

Basically, no one will look out for you like *you*, so you need to establish systems that protect your own needs and priorities in the face of enormous pressure to disregard them.

+1000. I sometimes try to explain to my coworkers that the relationship between you and your employer / boss is a business relationship and they need to treat it as such. I'm often amazed at how much people are driven by fear in their interactions with their employers.


it's conditioned via the school system, someone's in charge, they have power and you don't, sit and do your work quietly, don't get "in trouble".

Yeah, of course it's a conditioned behaviour. But all behaviour is modifiable.

If someone is not getting the result they want professionally with their behaviour, then they should seek to modify the behaviour, not assume that the undesirable outcomes are unavoidable, or that they're entirely dependent on the conditioning of their employers.

I've advised many people through challenging workplace dynamics and moved them from suckers conditioned to take abuse to autonomous professionals capable of establishing and defending strict boundaries, usually to the dramatic benefit of their performance.

Isn't that what this entire community is about? Learning to question and shed our conditioning???

damnedbee

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2021, 07:45:19 AM »
I'm not the OP, but this thread has been so helpful. Thanks for all the ideas and inspiration.

I'm in a similar situation of severe burnout, to the point where I'm actively developing concrete plans to quit and sustain myself for 6-12 months without full-time employment. Jumping immediately to another B.S. job wouldn't solve the burnout, so I'm positioning this a major life change, career break, or sabbatical. I've worked nonstop my whole life, and like it did for many, the pandemic has shifted my priorities. I'm going to grant myself some grace and do less for a while. I'm hopeful this break might spark some long-buried inspiration and help me figure out what I want to do in FIRE, which is always the piece of the puzzle I've struggled with.

My FIRE date is 2025 or 2026, so I'm not ready to pull the plug on steady earned income entirely. This break might throw me off course a bit. However, thanks to MMM and the FIRE community, I've built up enough FU money to cover expenses for a while. I'd hate using up that pot of cash, but my mental health is more important. Maybe I'll discover I can effectively do some kind of coast or barista FIRE, as well. As a single person, health insurance coverage is always the great unknown, but I've run estimates on the health insurance exchange and can make it work. (But, man, what did people DO before the HCA?)

Anyway, none of this would even have been possible without the insights and lessons I've learned from so many of the posters here. Just feeling really grateful for that this morning. :)

TomTX

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2021, 07:50:11 AM »
Ultimatums don't usually work. They always think you're bluffing.

An actual resignation letter is noticeably more likely to work. It immediately makes your departure very real to management.

pasadenafr

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2021, 08:02:40 AM »
Ultimatums don't usually work. They always think you're bluffing.

An actual resignation letter is noticeably more likely to work. It immediately makes your departure very real to management.

Yes, and oftentimes it's the only thing that will work. But you have to be ready to follow through.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2021, 10:27:56 AM »
I posted this elsewhere, but my wife was being jerked around a bit at work. She was told she'd absolutely get a position once she got the required degree, she got said degree after a year, they posted the position and...told her that they were considering other applicants.

We decided the best course of action was for her to act gracious throughout. She thanked her manager for letting her know that getting the position was no longer a sure thing, and handed her manager a reference form to fill out since she was applying for other such positions that were advertised elsewhere. She also had a few coworkers fill out a reference form too. Within days she was given the verbal offer, and had the official offer within a week. While I can't say with 100% certainty, I'm pretty sure that things would have played out differently if she went to her manager demanding that she either get the new job or she'd quit.

gooki

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2021, 02:08:57 PM »
Well played.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2021, 02:18:23 PM »
I'm not the OP, but this thread has been so helpful. Thanks for all the ideas and inspiration.

I'm in a similar situation of severe burnout, to the point where I'm actively developing concrete plans to quit and sustain myself for 6-12 months without full-time employment. Jumping immediately to another B.S. job wouldn't solve the burnout, so I'm positioning this a major life change, career break, or sabbatical. I've worked nonstop my whole life, and like it did for many, the pandemic has shifted my priorities. I'm going to grant myself some grace and do less for a while. I'm hopeful this break might spark some long-buried inspiration and help me figure out what I want to do in FIRE, which is always the piece of the puzzle I've struggled with.

My FIRE date is 2025 or 2026, so I'm not ready to pull the plug on steady earned income entirely. This break might throw me off course a bit. However, thanks to MMM and the FIRE community, I've built up enough FU money to cover expenses for a while. I'd hate using up that pot of cash, but my mental health is more important. Maybe I'll discover I can effectively do some kind of coast or barista FIRE, as well. As a single person, health insurance coverage is always the great unknown, but I've run estimates on the health insurance exchange and can make it work. (But, man, what did people DO before the HCA?)

Anyway, none of this would even have been possible without the insights and lessons I've learned from so many of the posters here. Just feeling really grateful for that this morning. :)

It’s wonderful that you’re looking after your mental health. I hope you picked up from the discussion that, as burnout and mental health is a health issue, you may want to consider talking to a therapist and counselor. We often think these issues are solely work related and if we leave that, everything will be better. Sometimes yes, but often there’s more going on (and sometimes the more going on leads to make work stressful). Always good to add this to your recovery and renewal for whatever is next ahead.

calimom

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2021, 01:13:55 PM »
No real advice, and sounds like you're being proactive about your job and your health. Hope the upcoming meeting goes well and is in your favor. It sounds like you have bargaining power. Being competent and well-liked helps!

MayDay

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2021, 06:02:44 PM »
Update:

1. I got promoted
2. I have as asked to choose between 4 new roles. 5 if you count keeping my old role and adding a new one as an option.

 I have about 2 weeks to express my prefences. The 4 new roles aren't absolutely guaranteed, but I'd guess 1 is 100%, 1 is 90%, and the other two are 60%.

Moral of the story:
1. If you are willing to be open about where you are at and you are considered a high performer, sometimes the powers that be will make things happen
2. If you are really willing and ready to walk, you might as well try #1 anyway because what have you got to lose?
3. I was obviously frustrated when I wrote my OP, lol.

Meanwhile I got an interview for my "dream job" at another company. I had applied right around my OP. So..... Now I don't even want the hassle, lol! But I'm interviewing anyway because you never know.

For the curious, my current role is in quality management at a manufacturing plant. My promotion is to a higher level of manager (I could keep same job for more pay). My options for new roles are in project management and two different engineering functional management roles, both of which are quite different than my current role in various ways and will be systemically different in some of the areas that currently frustrate me. The interview is for a high level engineering individual contributor role.

I have meetings with internal people this week and next, interview next week, go on PTO the following week, so things shoyluld shake out one way or the other by mid to end of August. Slightly later than my last timeline but that will shock no one who had worked in corporate America.

DaMa

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2021, 05:46:43 AM »
A change of work is the best rest. - Arthur Conan Doyle
I hope it works out for you!

Nutty

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2021, 07:06:56 AM »

For the curious, my current role is in quality management at a manufacturing plant. My promotion is to a higher level of manager (I could keep same job for more pay). My options for new roles are in project management and two different engineering functional management roles, both of which are quite different than my current role in various ways and will be systemically different in some of the areas that currently frustrate me. The interview is for a high level engineering individual contributor role.

Congratulations!  A new challenge and a new adventure await.

I had a hard time jumping between individual contributor and management roles.  I would advise you to do some soul searching and see where you will be happiest.  I'm back as an individual contributor after a reorg.  Quieter.  People still seek my opinion.  But there is a different pace and I get to do all the detailed, mind numbing stuff that doesn't thrill me.  Not attending mind numbing meetings is a plus though.  Pick your poison.

Where would you be happiest?

Loren Ver

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Re: Quitting a job or giving management an ultimatum
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2021, 08:05:08 AM »
Options are good.  Be sure to really listen to yourself before picking, not other people's expectations of you.  You are the one that needs to be in the game for the long run, take care of yourself.

LV

 

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