Author Topic: Putting off parenthood  (Read 18690 times)

AJ

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Putting off parenthood
« on: March 01, 2012, 10:08:43 PM »
Due to a wide variety of factors, DH and I have decided to delay having kids until we FI (7-10 years). I'll be 35-38 at that time. Is anyone else deliberately doing something similar? I'd love to hear other folks' experiences.

DH and I started trying for kids several years ago, but it turns out we would need IVF to conceive. We tried to foster-to-adopt, and learned that 1) with both of us working we couldn't give the kids the time and energy they deserved, 2) dealing with the state and case-workers is a royal pain, and 3) taking kids away from their bio-parents really does a number on their little psyches.

At this point, our plan is to sock away as much money as we can, and try IVF when I am 35. If we don't have enough to retire, we should at least have enough to live on until the kids are in school. If it turns out we waited too long and can't conceive, I think we're ok with that gamble. I would rather have no kids at all than have kids living the life we had before (leave at 7am, drive everyone to daycare/school, get home at 6pm, kids go to bed at 7:30...we literally saw those kids 2 hours on weekdays, all of it hurried, it was no way to live.)

I know the typical scenario is for the wife to quit working full time when kids come, but I'm just not up for that. I was home for 3 weeks with the kiddos and it was just awful. DH is just totally burnt out on kids altogether at this point (fostering was hard on him). He's ready to give up on the idea of child-rearing altogether, but I think he will change his mind as time goes along, as long as we are home and not both working.

Aloysius_Poutine

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2012, 10:30:16 PM »
Keep in mind that a woman's chance of getting pregnant drops off exponentially once you hit 35-38. Just a consideration that I'm sure you're already well aware of.

My wife and I decided to have kids while we're still in debt. It wasn't very well thought out, but i think it'll work out this way too.

Physics

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 06:22:15 AM »
We sort of did that, though not quite as late in life.  We have been married for 8 years and definitely held off on kids on purpose.  We just had our first daughter 6 weeks ago.

We are not quite FI, but I'm extremely confident at this point.  It was pretty funny how it worked out (obviously everyone has very different experiences here).  TMI incoming....  we were 32, and decided.. you know I think we should have our 1-2 children now... 2 weeks later, holy shit we are pregnant... ok... :D  we were worried becuase all of our parents had had trouble.  But it is so random.

Also our experience has been that our overall spending has gone DOWN since having our daughter.  That may not last forever, but children aren't that expensive, in the traditional sense.

kolorado

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 06:56:35 AM »
I totally understand where you're coming from on the money and parenting time sides of it but delaying pregnancy is something that should be discussed with your doctor. Even with IVF, a woman's chance of holding on to the implanted embryo goes down as she ages.
Personally, I would not delay having children quite that long, but I knew I wanted to be a mother. I wasn't ok with the idea of that never happening for me. You may be ok with that now but things may change in a few years.
There isn't a "perfect" time to have them really. It's a good idea to not have consumer debt and the ability to live on one income whether you think one parent will stay home or not.
I suggest you discuss your thoughts with your SO and doctor. Make a shorter term financial and family plan. Agree to come back to the discussion in 2 year's time or whatever shorter time frame you're comfortable with. Because of your special conception needs, you should also be seeing a specialist at these intervals to confirm things haven't changed or become worse for carrying a baby. This is crucial data in the discussion.
A big reason for this frequent visit to the decision is that men often seem to think that things you decided on 10 years ago are still true now. They tend to make a decision and move on forever. That's usually a strength. In this case, you and he need to know that this area is open to a change of opinion and a change in plan. I've seen too many couples agree to no kids in their 20's and the woman be heart-broken in her 30's because the husband won't revisit the idea of maybe having one after all. That could still happen, even with discussion every couple of years, but I think there wouldn't be the same kind of resentment when you at least talked about it at intervals and knew where your partner was coming from over the years.

velocistar237

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 08:14:06 AM »
However, neither DH nor I feel we would make good SAHPs. So, we've opted to delay childbearing until we can either both FI or semi-FI and work part time from home.

Going semi-FI with part-time work will allow you to have children a little earlier and maybe avoid some of the potential complications. My wife works part-time at just 10 hours per week, and it does a lot to keep her sane, and it keeps up her confidence that she will be able to get back into her career if she wants to. Also, a lot can change in three or four years, so maybe your DH would be amenable by then. Is your job something you can do part-time, or even self-employed?

shedinator

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 08:44:56 AM »
My wife works part-time at just 10 hours per week, and it does a lot to keep her sane, and it keeps up her confidence that she will be able to get back into her career if she wants to.

Wow. I could've truthfully written that exact sentence :)

arebelspy

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 10:14:12 AM »
We're delaying, but only a few years.  I.e. instead of having two kids, one at age 25 and the other at age 27, we're planning on having them at 27 & 29.

This will get us closer to FI (and the early years make a big difference due to compounding). We're then planning on retiring at age 32 (for me) and 35 (for her).

If we pushed back kids to, say, age 31 (and 33), we could both FIRE at 31 before we had kids, but we don't want to wait quite that long (another 4 years).

We've been married 5 years already, so we'll have the first kid after being married about 7 years (as opposed to the 11 we'd be at if we delayed longer to retire first).

Of course, who knows what will happen once we actually have kids, likely all plans will go out the window.  But that's our current plan, kids at age 27, 29, retire at age 32, 35.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
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upnorth

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 10:26:11 AM »
Yes- I had a similar experience.  DH and I started trying for kids about a year after we got married.  Tried for 2 years while mostly in my 20's.  I got tired of trying, so took a break for a couple of years to see what happened.  Relaxing and letting nature take its course didn't work too well either.  We decided to work harder.  I got pregnant at 34, but lost the baby.  Two years letter I was pregnant again.  At the time we were almost FI.  After the baby, I went back to work for a few years so I could fund my kid's college fund and put a little more money away. 

Now I stay at home with kiddo who is now three.  I'm glad I worked a little longer though.  We are FI and debt-free, although DH still works (by choice).  We have a relaxed life though.  It's nice.  I can't imagine sitting in a cube anymore.  I'm not even sure if I want to work part-time.  Our days are full, even though we spend most of our time at home.

In my experience, I found that keeping a baby at daycare wasn't that big of deal.  It was kind of a pain to have to pump milk at work, but honestly, the baby slept most of the day.  If you want my advice, I'd aim for a kid earlier than 35-38.  I'd say around 32-35.  Things worked out for us, but it's too late for us to have a second baby, something I would have liked.  You may feel the same way. 

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 11:21:20 AM »
You may be ok with that now but things may change in a few years.

I'm not going to have kids at a time in my life when I don't want them just because I "might" change my mind in the future. That is a terrible idea. What is worse: a mother who has to adopt because she waited too long, or a mother raising a child she doesn't want?

I suggest you discuss your thoughts with your SO and doctor.

Honestly, I'm actually a little insulted that you would think I hadn't already. I didn't want to get into the nitty-grittty details, but there is a reason I know that I will need IVF to conceive (a fact that only a fertility specialist can tell you).

I'm fully aware of the fertility aspect of the decision. As I said, it is a gamble we are willing to take. I understand if you desperately wanted kids, you would have a very different perspective. If all I ever wanted in life was to be a mother, I would be banging down the doors of the fertility clinic. But that isn't the case. I would like to have children, but I don't want them so badly that I am willing to subject them to the kind of life we would have if we brought them into this world now. Happy parents make happy kids, and I was miserable when we were fostering and working.

There is always the possibility you will feel differently about your decisions later in life. We could have kids now and regret the decision in a few years. I would rather regret not having them, than have them and resent them. I have three sets of friends in my age group who thought they wanted kids and are now simply miserable. Parents are not typically culturally allowed to admit they wish they would have waited, or not had their kids at all. When DH told a co-worker that he thought he might not want kids at all, she confided that if she could do it over again she would not have her son (now 20). She said she had never told anyone that before, because parents are not allowed to feel such things. I don't want that to be me in 20 years, secretly regretting bringing my kids into the world. That sounds horrible, and we WILL wait until we are both quite sure we are ready for the commitment before pursuing IVF/adoption. That is the responsible thing to do.

I know it is a counter-culture choice, but I am quite comfortable with it and fully informed and aware of the risks. I am also accustomed to receiving flak for our choice, since it is not a popular one. I guess I thought if there was any chance of finding other folks who had made the same unpopular decision it would be here on these forums...

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 11:26:33 AM »
Also, a lot can change in three or four years, so maybe your DH would be amenable by then. Is your job something you can do part-time, or even self-employed?

Actually, yes. If we were to accidentally get pregnant (unlikely, but possible), that I what we would do. DH does freelance work on the side, so we could potentially have me work part-time and him freelance until the kids were in school, then both go back to work. We would make enough to live, but wouldn't be able to save much. That is our Plan B.

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 11:43:12 AM »
We've been married 5 years already, so we'll have the first kid after being married about 7 years (as opposed to the 11 we'd be at if we delayed longer to retire first).

Of course, who knows what will happen once we actually have kids, likely all plans will go out the window.  But that's our current plan, kids at age 27, 29, retire at age 32, 35.

You got married at 20? We did, too :) I don't know many other folks who married so young. I wish we would have been just a bit more financially savvy in the early years...if we were even two years ahead of where we are it would make a big difference.

It was really eye-opening for us having foster kids. We thought of them as our own children in the beginning, since we were hoping to adopt them. I found that, while saving and FI was still possible, it was no longer as important to us. Our #1 primary focus mentally was on teaching and parenting, and there really wasn't much energy left over for budgeting and such. We could do the basics, but we were really just trying to manage daily life. Our spending stayed about the same, less eating out more kid expenses, but that was because DHS paid for the childcare. OTOH, the kids we had came with fully-formed personalities and cognitive/behavioral issues resulting from the trauma they experienced in their young lives (they were 4 and 6), so maybe they took more energy than "normal" kids would. They also had visits with two sets of caseworkers, a court advocate, laywer, therapist, bio-mom, and bio-sister in addition to the regular doctor/dentist/eye doctor/school events/etc. that all kids have. The 4 year old's daycare actually had FIVE separate orientations we had to attend. We were taking so much time off that DH got in trouble with his HR dept. But at least they were old enough to sleep through the night :)

kolorado

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 02:07:34 PM »
You may be ok with that now but things may change in a few years.

I'm not going to have kids at a time in my life when I don't want them just because I "might" change my mind in the future. That is a terrible idea. What is worse: a mother who has to adopt because she waited too long, or a mother raising a child she doesn't want?


~I wasn't suggesting for you to have kids now regardless. Of course that's a terrible idea. All I said was that you might change your mind about having children. You're reading too much into what I wrote.~

I suggest you discuss your thoughts with your SO and doctor.

Honestly, I'm actually a little insulted that you would think I hadn't already. I didn't want to get into the nitty-grittty details, but there is a reason I know that I will need IVF to conceive (a fact that only a fertility specialist can tell you).

I'm fully aware of the fertility aspect of the decision. As I said, it is a gamble we are willing to take.

~You seem to think I'm attacking you or looking down on your decision when I was only trying to be helpful.
You said things like "I think we're ok with that gamble" and "He's ready to give up on the idea of child-rearing altogether, but I think he will change his mind as time goes along" which led me to figure that some more talking may need to be done to know how you both want to proceed.
I have no personal stake in whether or not you have children. Why would I care except to try to help? Maybe I should be "insulted" that you're insulted. ~shrug~

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 02:33:06 PM »
~You seem to think I'm attacking you or looking down on your decision when I was only trying to be helpful.
You said things like "I think we're ok with that gamble" and "He's ready to give up on the idea of child-rearing altogether, but I think he will change his mind as time goes along" which led me to figure that some more talking may need to be done to know how you both want to proceed.
I have no personal stake in whether or not you have children. Why would I care except to try to help? Maybe I should be "insulted" that you're insulted. ~shrug~

Sorry, adding "think" into the gamble sentence was misleading. That was my fault. However, I do only "think" DH will change his mind, not because we haven't discussed it, but because we can't know the future. Right now, he's burnt out and doesn't want them, but he knows that is only because of recent stressful events in our life. He knows that there is a good chance when life gets back to normal he will want them again, especially if we can move to the slower pace of part-time or no employment. BUT, he can't guarantee me that will happen...maybe he will just be burnt out forever. Maybe we'll get 7 years down the road and he still won't want them. I have to be prepared for that possibility as well. Hence, I *think* he will change his mind, but I can't say for sure.

I apologize for taking your post so personally. It contained so much rudimentary information (like, fertility decreases with age, should see a doctor, might change my mind, etc.) that it assumed a large degree of ignorance on my part. But, of course, you don't know me, so I shouldn't have been offended.

zinnie

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 03:00:33 PM »

I'm not going to have kids at a time in my life when I don't want them just because I "might" change my mind in the future. That is a terrible idea. What is worse: a mother who has to adopt because she waited too long, or a mother raising a child she doesn't want?

There is always the possibility you will feel differently about your decisions later in life. We could have kids now and regret the decision in a few years. I would rather regret not having them, than have them and resent them. I have three sets of friends in my age group who thought they wanted kids and are now simply miserable. Parents are not typically culturally allowed to admit they wish they would have waited, or not had their kids at all. When DH told a co-worker that he thought he might not want kids at all, she confided that if she could do it over again she would not have her son (now 20). She said she had never told anyone that before, because parents are not allowed to feel such things. I don't want that to be me in 20 years, secretly regretting bringing my kids into the world. That sounds horrible, and we WILL wait until we are both quite sure we are ready for the commitment before pursuing IVF/adoption. That is the responsible thing to do.

I know it is a counter-culture choice, but I am quite comfortable with it and fully informed and aware of the risks. I am also accustomed to receiving flak for our choice, since it is not a popular one. I guess I thought if there was any chance of finding other folks who had made the same unpopular decision it would be here on these forums...

AJ, Wow, I could have written a lot of the above myself. I agree on all counts.

I'm the same age as you and have been thinking of something very similar. It's interesting to read your thoughts on raising children while working and on being a foster parent. On the one hand, I am very concerned about increased risks due to advanced maternal age (looking at too many graphs on Tri 21 and such have scared the crap out of me). On the other hand, I don't think I want to be a full-time working parent, which would be likely be inevitable for us due to discrepancies between my husband's and my salary.

What you're doing seems like an interesting thing to consider--wait until you're FI or close to it, and if biological children happen great. If not, there's always adoption. We've been considering adopting in general if we do in fact have kids (which we haven't even decided on yet). On the other hand, I don't want to wait for biological children until 40 which is our goal FI age, so maybe one of us could work from 35-40 while the other cares for the child. Or we could both work part time. Anyways, we don't have this figured out yet like you do. But I'm glad to see someone in a similar boat!


kolorado

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 03:37:04 PM »
~You seem to think I'm attacking you or looking down on your decision when I was only trying to be helpful.
You said things like "I think we're ok with that gamble" and "He's ready to give up on the idea of child-rearing altogether, but I think he will change his mind as time goes along" which led me to figure that some more talking may need to be done to know how you both want to proceed.
I have no personal stake in whether or not you have children. Why would I care except to try to help? Maybe I should be "insulted" that you're insulted. ~shrug~

Sorry, adding "think" into the gamble sentence was misleading. That was my fault. However, I do only "think" DH will change his mind, not because we haven't discussed it, but because we can't know the future. Right now, he's burnt out and doesn't want them, but he knows that is only because of recent stressful events in our life. He knows that there is a good chance when life gets back to normal he will want them again, especially if we can move to the slower pace of part-time or no employment. BUT, he can't guarantee me that will happen...maybe he will just be burnt out forever. Maybe we'll get 7 years down the road and he still won't want them. I have to be prepared for that possibility as well. Hence, I *think* he will change his mind, but I can't say for sure.

I apologize for taking your post so personally. It contained so much rudimentary information (like, fertility decreases with age, should see a doctor, might change my mind, etc.) that it assumed a large degree of ignorance on my part. But, of course, you don't know me, so I shouldn't have been offended.

This is what I'm loving about this forum, so many rational people! I certainly didn't mean to imply any ignorance on your part. But I can see how you would take it that way. 
And since you don't know me either, you couldn't have known that I've been a part of about 100 similar discussions as this one on a pregnancy board I belong to. Think in a post is almost always a sign that someone wants to see what her friends think are the strongest pros and cons to her situation. I always feel compelled to be sure the person is getting the wisest counsel and most meaningful communication in her "real" life before making decisions. You might be surprised at how many women on other social sites blindly follow the opinions of their "friends", making huge life decisions on the influence of others rather than determining what is truly right for them. 
I really should have assumed that since you were here at MMM you were above average in intelligence and an independent thinker. I probably would have made that assumption if I taken a few more minutes to think about your post and then responded a bit differently.
Every board has it's own tone of support and information sharing. I'm still getting used to this one as it's different than any other I've been to. Checking in here and on my other forums every day makes it a bit hard to change from tone to tone. Does that make sense?

Adventine

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2012, 12:53:33 AM »
I'm conflicted about having kids, because it's just soooooo expensive to have even just one child in this country, and it would derail my chances of achieving FI within my timeframe of the next 15 years. I'd like to have one, maybe, eventually, if I was 200% sure I could afford one.

Until then, just no.

James

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 12:26:24 PM »
I went right from college, to marriage, to kids.  My wife and I regret it, but the huge advantage is that our youngest (of three) will be out of HS before we reach 50. (my wife will be 47)  Because the kids need to see me, I will delay FI somewhat and hope to cut back to part time shortly.  But I'll still be close to FI by the time they move out.  I really enjoy my job in anesthesia, so I probably won't quit even when I reach FI.  I'll just cut back and do a lot more international volunteer work than I have time for now.

I think things should be stable before kids, but waiting for FI isn't necessarily worth it unless you can plan that in advance.  That is one thing that sticks out about MMM story, it was planned.  He isn't saying everyone should follow his route, but his principles can really help no matter what plan you make.  Reaching a nice balance of part time work and low cost of living seems better in my book rather than waiting until your later 30s for kids, but it's something every family should work out, just don't try and fit yourself to someone else's ideal.

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 01:43:23 PM »
On the one hand, I am very concerned about increased risks due to advanced maternal age (looking at too many graphs on Tri 21 and such have scared the crap out of me).

This isn't for everyone, but DH and I have been talking about freezing embryos now while my eggs are healthy. Since we will need IVF anyway, the costs aren't as much of a factor for us - more like prepaying. But, it would mean paying for storage (several hundred dollars per year). Plus, it is an uncomfortable process that I am not looking forward to, so it is easy to want to put off. We'll wait a couple years until DH is can say for sure he will want kids, but if he does it could drastically reduce our fertility concerns of waiting so long.

Checking in here and on my other forums every day makes it a bit hard to change from tone to tone. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes total sense. This really is a unique community of folks, and your advice would be spot on to a woman who hadn't put much thought into fertility risks.

sideways8

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 02:50:41 PM »
I'm about 99.999999999999999% sure that I'm not going to have kids. I used to want three kids and to have them all in my 20's but that was before I really sat down and thought about what it all would really involve.

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2012, 05:11:28 PM »
I would like to have children, but I don't want them so badly that I am willing to subject them to the kind of life we would have if we brought them into this world now. Happy parents make happy kids, and I was miserable when we were fostering and working.

There is always the possibility you will feel differently about your decisions later in life. We could have kids now and regret the decision in a few years. I would rather regret not having them, than have them and resent them. I have three sets of friends in my age group who thought they wanted kids and are now simply miserable. Parents are not typically culturally allowed to admit they wish they would have waited, or not had their kids at all. When DH told a co-worker that he thought he might not want kids at all, she confided that if she could do it over again she would not have her son (now 20). She said she had never told anyone that before, because parents are not allowed to feel such things. I don't want that to be me in 20 years, secretly regretting bringing my kids into the world. That sounds horrible, and we WILL wait until we are both quite sure we are ready for the commitment before pursuing IVF/adoption. That is the responsible thing to do.

I know it is a counter-culture choice, but I am quite comfortable with it and fully informed and aware of the risks. I am also accustomed to receiving flak for our choice, since it is not a popular one. I guess I thought if there was any chance of finding other folks who had made the same unpopular decision it would be here on these forums...

+1
You said what I feel better than I would have said it.

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 10:21:38 PM »
I am sorry fostering was so hard.  I want to encourage you and your husband that your experience with your own kids, or a baby adopted at birth will probably be very different.  I know that you know that intellectually, but I want you to hear it from someone with a little experience.
 We adopted our son (now 16) when he was 9.  We also attempted to adopt his sister, who we fostered for 3 months but were unable to adopt.  Now that she is 18 she moved back in with us 4 months ago.  I absolutely adore my kids.  They are some of the strongest, bravest people you will ever meet, and their happiness is more important to me than anything.  That said, they were utter nightmares for years.  For people outside the loop of severe reactive attachment disorder, imagine living with a beautiful child you start off seeing as a beautiful, amazing, precious victim of so much cruelty, and then you start suspecting is actually Jack Nickolson's character in The Shining.  They have both turned into amazing, good people, but that was not a forgone conclusion.  We were actually told by their psychiatrist that our son was becoming a sociopath, there was nothing they could do for him, and we should keep him in treatment foster care until he aged out and ended up in jail.  Now his biggest issue is ADHD.    The point of all this, is that parenthood is not like what you experienced.  You get to parenthood eventually with them, but it took us probably 4 or 5 years with him at least, and I expect we will never really get there with our daughter.   That's okay for us, the rewards are great.  And I have always been convinced God chose us for each other (that helped during his 6 psych hospital admissions, and multiple calls to the police.)
  Huh, I'm not sure I remember what the point of my post was...  Just that having kids can be wonderful - and now it is wonderful for us.  But I so get not having them!
Heidi

travelbug

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2012, 05:15:22 PM »
We waited to have children too, not as long as you though. I was 31 when we had our first. We have also decided on two children due to financial reasons, in part.
It was difficult as we really wanted to start a family and all our friends were having babies. It was an emotional time as society puts pressure from many sectors with people constantly asking when you are having kids.
But we got through it and are soooo happy we waited. We waited until we had our business running with a large enough profit so that I could stay home and still take a wage to cut out child care costs and the loss of wage costs.
This has made a huge difference to when we can retire. (hopefully next year)
C

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2012, 09:36:36 PM »
AJ, I am in the middle of being a foster dad. We got newly minted a few months ago, and have already had 1 toddler and two babies come to our home in addition to us providing some respite care to a troubled little person so his foster family could have a break.  At this point we have one little baby living with us and we hope to adopt if the opportunity arises. What I joke about with friends and family, as an act of venting, is that fostering takes a challenging scenario, having a newborn or infant and toddler sibling group and adds a lot of baggage to it (our case worker, their case worker, their guardian ad litem, the CFS nurses, visits with the birth parents, etc).

Fostering is hard because I invest myself everyday into making the lives of the kids in my care better. I act as a dad regardless of how short of time they stay. It is very draining!

I don't really have anything much to add in the way of advise, other than to state the you have been given the gift of understanding - the understanding of the framework of how you want to be a parent. If it is different to the norm that is okay, if it is non-traditional great, because in the end, no one beside you and your husband have had to deal with the circumstances surrounding you being a parent and the past that you have had to endure.

My wife and I experienced 6 years of pain and loss before we started our new journey on the fostering/adoptive status. You both waiting until you know for sure about the IVF/adoption is awesome. In the end, and based upon what the past has shown me, I say fuck the "cultural norm choice," go with what feels right for you, because quite frankly, the options of IVF/adoption or in our case just adoptions isn't the norm, so why the hell should we play by the normal rules!

Feel free to PM me if you want.

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2012, 01:51:30 PM »
   Gangr, that's great what you are doing.  I hope it works well.  I sometimes think about fostering again.  I am planning for a few selfish years after my son and foster daughter move out, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't end up doing it again in the future.  Even with all the work and frustration it is a little addictive.
   Choosing to have kids has definitely put off our plans for FI.  We have had our son for 7 years, and this is the first year we have both worked full-time.  We both always worked, but combined we probably did 40-52 hours a week.  That worked best for us.  I had always believed I wanted to be a SAHM, but come to find out I loved going to work 1 day a week.  Work turned into this fun, social place I hung out at occasionally as a way to get a break from my kid.  I may discover that is true again after I retire - and I luckily have a job (nursing) that accomodates that easily.  But back to the point, while our little one was growing up we kept saving in our 403B's (like a 401k but for healthcare) but that's about it.  Well, actually we invested a lot into a house that will probably pay us back 50% of what we paid in, but what do you do... 
   But, my life's purpose wasn't to ER, it was to live.  And these last 7 years are an important part of the living.  So no, our family's financial situation is not impressive.  Better than my co-workers, but I am excited to start the next chapter.
Heidi
 

mm1970

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2012, 03:58:15 PM »
Coming a little late to the game, but I thought I'd give some perspective.

I got married at 26, dh was 28.  I didn't want kids, he did, we both thought we could talk each other to the dark side.  I was more ambivalent than anything...I figured they'd be a lot of work and most of that work tends to fall on mom (i.e., me).

Well, my spouse is very persuasive.  We started trying after about 7 years of marriage (I was 33).  I got pregnant and gave birth at 35.

Yes, your fertility drops as you age (it took me 18 months to get pregnant).  If you are someone who is absolutely desparate for a bio child, I wouldn't wait.  But if you are "ambivalent" or more flexible, then I would absolutely wait.  I know a lot of women who have had babies older, some the normal way, some with IVF.

Statistically, for example, 30-40% of 40-year old women will have a successful pregnancy (without intervention) in 4 years.  Does that seem low or high?  Depends on your perspective.  And are you willing to wait 4 years?

We decided to try for #2 when I was 39.  Tried 15 months this time and quit.  Decided we were happy with one, then...whoops, after another 6 months I got pregnant.  My son is due 2 weeks after my 42nd birthday.  Am I normal?  Am I rare?  Eh, I don't care.  What I am is TIRED.

Really, I wouldn't let "statistics" rush you into something.  I just wouldn't do it.  But that's my own personality talking.  If you had told me at 26 that if I didn't have a kid within 2 years that my window would close...I would not have gone ahead and had a kid.  I was NOT ready.

catalana

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2012, 03:15:09 AM »


Hi AJ, another one late to this thread, but got directed to it recently when I asked a similar question.

I am 37 and only just ready to start trying to have a family (I only met my lovely man when I was already in my 30s)

IF we are successful, I am fairly sure that I don't want to work full time whilst raising a child.  I am the main earner, and cannot envisage having enough energy, patience and most importantly time, to do both well.  Yet at the same time, I don't know how I would cope without the mental stimulation of work.  I sometimes work from home and cannot do more than a couple of days in a row! 

OH jokes about giving up his work and being a stay at home dad, and I think he would make a great job of it (other than feeding them waaaaaay too much sugary food).  However I think when it came down to it, he wouldn't want to leave because he is likely to be in the middle of a multi-year piece of research he has just started.  This is also the first time I have typed this, but I am also not sure how I feel about the role reversal, and busting a gut at work while OH stays home and plays with the kids.

I suppose some of the questions I am mulling over apply to you guys.  Do both of you need to be FI, or would it cause resentment if your DH worked while you stayed home?  Could either of you work part-time?

If you conceived now, could you afford to take the few years away from work before they went to school, or are you still some way off that?


shedinator

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2012, 07:51:04 AM »

OH jokes about giving up his work and being a stay at home dad, and I think he would make a great job of it (other than feeding them waaaaaay too much sugary food).  However I think when it came down to it, he wouldn't want to leave because he is likely to be in the middle of a multi-year piece of research he has just started.  This is also the first time I have typed this, but I am also not sure how I feel about the role reversal, and busting a gut at work while OH stays home and plays with the kids.

In regard to the first part, it can't hurt to ask him if he's serious.
In regard to the role reversal... I've been a SAHD at several points during our parenthood. Actually, my wife has only been "primary caregiver" with respect to time spent since last June. I worked from home for the first 2 years, and then had about a year where I was unemployed while she worked p/t. It was a great experience for me, but I eventually went back to work f/t for a couple of reasons- trying to reach FI more quickly, and wife wanting to reduce her hours and spend more time with our son (even those 20 hours/week were a source of separation anxiety. 10 hours seems to be the perfect number for both of them). It's been my experience that it's usually not the SAHD who resents the "role reversal," but the working mother who is a little bit jealous of her husband.

Mrs MM

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2012, 10:39:51 AM »
OH jokes about giving up his work and being a stay at home dad, and I think he would make a great job of it (other than feeding them waaaaaay too much sugary food).  However I think when it came down to it, he wouldn't want to leave because he is likely to be in the middle of a multi-year piece of research he has just started.  This is also the first time I have typed this, but I am also not sure how I feel about the role reversal, and busting a gut at work while OH stays home and plays with the kids.

I suppose some of the questions I am mulling over apply to you guys.  Do both of you need to be FI, or would it cause resentment if your DH worked while you stayed home?  Could either of you work part-time?

This is very interesting... I know a lot of stay at home dads and it works wonderfully.  I think it's wonderful that dads are staying home with their children and while it doesn't work for all families (if the dad happens to not enjoy it), it is a great way to deal with a situation like yours.  It's definitely worth a try!!  Nothing has to last forever, but most things are worth trying.

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2012, 10:54:31 AM »
I suppose some of the questions I am mulling over apply to you guys.  Do both of you need to be FI, or would it cause resentment if your DH worked while you stayed home?  Could either of you work part-time?

There would be pluses and minuses to my DH being a SAHP. He is a more laid back person than I am, so he handles stress better. I also found when I was home with my foster kids for the first 3 weeks that the introvert in my desperately craved alone time. Right now, I work by myself in an office and that fulfills my "me-time". But at home, I had to carve it out and it wasn't easy. OTOH, DH worked from home one year and got little done. When I work from home (which I do on occasion) I can still get in a couple loads of laundry and dishes without sacrificing my work (between meetings, waiting for things to upload, etc.) DH's brain doesn't work like that. So, in that way, I think our house would run more smoothly with me at home, but I would just be stressed out of my mind!

If it came down to it, if we got pregnant right now and had to make a decision, we know that DH would stay at home. He makes less, and he would be better with the kids. I wouldn't resent it at all, I know he would be doing the harder job!

salmp01

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 03:11:40 PM »
I got married in my late 30s and we’re now having our first child.  I always felt I'd like to be financially independent before I had kids (not qutie there but close).  We too had issues with infertility and decided to go the surrogate route.  The child will biologically ours but someone else is carrying it (my wife is unable to carry).  Both of us work and my wife is planning on leaving her job for good when the baby comes (next month).  After reading all the great information on the site I figured that it may be possible for me to leave work as well!  We would like to have one more baby and the surrogate route is quite expensive so to be safe I’m planning on working for at least another year.   After that, if we can reduce our expense enough I’m planning on giving up the 8-5 job! 

gooki

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2012, 09:43:47 PM »
There isn't a "perfect" time to have them really. It's a good idea to not have consumer debt and the ability to live on one income whether you think one parent will stay home or not.

This sums it up for me.

Jackson

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 02:33:55 PM »
I have never had the urge to have children.  I'm in my thirties.  I don't want to use my time, money, patience, and energy on a child's existence; I feel like I'm short on time as it is right now.  Maybe I'll feel differently when I'm on my deathbed, but I doubt it.  What are the reasons people these days intentionally have children?  To pass on genes?  To give the parents a sense of purpose?  To have someone to care for the parents when they're old?  Some sort of immortality wish ("We live on in the memories of our descendants" sort of thing)?  So humanity doesn't become extinct?

Landor n Stella

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2012, 09:09:07 PM »
We're waiting. First, it was wanting to get all of our student loan debt paid off. Now, after finding MMM and the idea of FI, I think we will wait even longer. We're on track to have loans paid off in about 2 years, when we will also have been married for 6 years and we will both be 28. I think I would gladly trade a few years more of work to have enough passive income that one of us could stay home until he/she/they are in school. It would put off our FI for much longer, but it would be worth it to stay home for a few years.
I'm thinking that having the first at 32 wouldn't be terrible. And the second (if we want another one) at 34.
~Stella

It was difficult as we really wanted to start a family and all our friends were having babies. It was an emotional time as society puts pressure from many sectors with people constantly asking when you are having kids.

Too true!

mm1970

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2012, 05:48:32 PM »
I have never had the urge to have children.  I'm in my thirties.  I don't want to use my time, money, patience, and energy on a child's existence; I feel like I'm short on time as it is right now.  Maybe I'll feel differently when I'm on my deathbed, but I doubt it.  What are the reasons people these days intentionally have children?  To pass on genes?  To give the parents a sense of purpose?  To have someone to care for the parents when they're old?  Some sort of immortality wish ("We live on in the memories of our descendants" sort of thing)?  So humanity doesn't become extinct?

Probably the same reason people always have (aside from lack of birth control and the need for more farmworkers).

Some people love children and really want a family.  I don't really care about passing on genes, having a sense of purpose, or having someone to care for me when I'm old (I didn't care for my parents, I don't expect to be cared for either).  Then again, I was ambivalent before having a child.

My husband, however, loves kids.  He is so great with them.  Loves playing, teaching, interacting...and I gotta tell you, I cannot imagine my life without my son.  He's 6.  He's adorable.  Such a great kid and a great addition to our family.  I can't imagine how boring my life would be without him (not that I was bored before him...I wasn't...you often don't miss what you never had.)  I get to experience life through a whole new set of eyes.

dmobley

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2012, 08:36:43 AM »
I don't have a huge amount to add here, but just a few quick bullet points from our experience:

- Getting pregnant can be tough (my wife has needed minor fertility treatment each time) and frustrating, but kids are great
- Starting "late" sometimes can work (but I don't recommend deliberately waiting!). We started trying in my wife's late 20s but didn't have the first kid until she was 31. The second was at 33 and the third and fourth (twins) at 35. So, four kids after a "late" start!
- I'd be very sad if we'd waited until we were happy with our finances to start trying and she was, say, 35, and it took 3-4 years for her to get pregnant. Then we'd probably have at most one kid, maybe none.
- To put it another way: I think we'd be more sad if we ended up not being able to have kids (or adopt) than if we ended up not quite where we wanted to be financially. You can always change your finances, but eventually you get too old for kids to make much sense (i.e. I want my kids to be out of college before I hit my 60s).
- Kids don't have to be ridiculously expensive -- secondhand clothes, hand-me-downs, cloth diapers, used (or hand-me-down) furniture -- these make the cost rather reasonable.

twinge

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2012, 09:14:07 AM »
Quote
This isn't for everyone, but DH and I have been talking about freezing embryos now while my eggs are healthy. Since we will need IVF anyway, the costs aren't as much of a factor for us - more like prepaying. But, it would mean paying for storage (several hundred dollars per year). Plus, it is an uncomfortable process that I am not looking forward to, so it is easy to want to put off. We'll wait a couple years until DH is can say for sure he will want kids, but if he does it could drastically reduce our fertility concerns of waiting so long.

This may also address any concerns you might have about congenital abnormalities that rise with maternal age (and who knows waiting during this period of rapid growth of scientific knowledge of IVF/genetic testing of embryos may prove to be a boon for the health of your future potential children...).  I think though that your general approach to make the best decision you can at the moment that is informed by knowledge about fertility etc. makes sense to me.  I waited to have each of my kids when it seemed right to me and while I understand the p.o.v. "there is never any good time to be a parent so you might as well do it now" I really think that is just a way that people who are actually ready to be parents give themselves the push they need. 

One thing that was important to me when I decided to wait -- (and this may be a personal perverse bent for needing to imagine and deal with worst cases) was that I explicitly tried to picture being my future self and fully pictured really difficult or disappointing results (e.g., not being able to get pregnant, my husband deciding he doesn't want kids, finding out there was a health problem with the baby etc.) and imagining my reaction and how I would handle it. Somehow playing through these options made it seem more like a normal difficult life decision.  And it revealed to me that I think I had this sort of vestigial, mystical "will I not be fulfilled in life if I don't have kids?" sensibility hovering beneath the surface of my thoughts about parenting that as soon as I imagined how I would handle it if I didn't, it brought it that "faulty sensibility" to the surface and it lost its power.

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2012, 12:35:37 PM »
(leave at 7am, drive everyone to daycare/school, get home at 6pm, kids go to bed at 7:30...we literally saw those kids 2 hours on weekdays, all of it hurried, it was no way to live.)

When we have kids, we're hoping to stagger our schedules somewhat:  husband will go to work early (he's an early riser), while I get the kids up, fed, and off to daycare; then I go to work, while he picks them up in the early afternoon and I get home later.

We do have very flexible workplaces, so this might not be an option for everyone, but it's certainly something to consider.  (It also requires that both parents be 100% on-board with the idea of sharing parenting responsibilities, which doesn't always happen.)

snoringcat

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2012, 11:21:59 PM »
I just had my first child at 39 years of age through IVF. We were trying to adopt for 6 years and kept getting told they  were placing the child with a family who were more experienced and already parents. I guess we were drawn to the high risk kids. Pregnancy was extremely difficult and hard on me there were concerns with my age and my blood pressure was completely out of whack. I had to see a specialist every week 3 months in and could not hold down a job during my pregnancy. I knew pregnancy would be hard for me but I had no idea what a high risk I would become and in retrospect I wish I had pushed to do it in my early 30's. You never know what you will go through until you do.

Saving mom

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2012, 08:16:07 AM »
My mom always encouraged us to have our kids when you are younger with more energy. My sisters and I all had our first kids at 29/30. Absolutely no issues with fertility (if anything the opposite- we each had a surprise pregnancy after the first). At the time I was still into having lots of stuff and the amount of money I wasted on labels and doodads for baby makes me cringe slightly. I returned to work after both babies were born because I earned many multiples of my husband. We tried to have him be a stay at home dad but it didn't work for our family. Given the amount of money I was making child care was not a concern financially. I absolutely adore my kids and there were days I really wanted to quit but holding out at work for 6-7 years helped me save at least $500K. If I had heard of MMM years ago, that number would be closer to $1MM. I just quit and am home with nearly school age kids. Honestly I dont think I had the patience needed to be home with toddlers but I am very happy to be home with them now and glad I had tem when I did. Once they are both in school, I will do part time work to keep adding to the stash.

stashette

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2012, 03:13:38 PM »
Deciding when (and if) to have kids is such a tough decision.  I am WAY too much of a planner for a "surprise", and it seems like that's how a lot of people become parents.  On the other had, the choice may be made for me if I wait too long, especially since I'm not interested in any fertility treatments.  Best of luck in your decision!  I'm afraid there is no easy answer to this!

smalllife

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2012, 05:48:55 PM »
I would be questioning why you want kids at all when you had such a negative experience fostering (was the stress merely because of the working hours or was the actual parenting the cause).  I would also question why you would go with IVF instead of adoption since you already looked into fostering - and therefore presumably see parenting as raising a child and not creating a human who shares your DNA.   There are pros and cons to now (have energy, get it over with, but possibly push back FI) and later (start off FI but might need to go back to work due to unexpected costs, less energy).

For full disclosure: I don't want kids, won't be having them, and have strong views as to why that aren't really relevant in discussions about the financial impact of postponing parenthood.  I personally see IVF on the same plane as many Mustachians see ostentatious cars and "bling" but again, it's a personal preference how people spend their money and what they do with their bodies.

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2012, 10:18:56 AM »
I would also question why you would go with IVF instead of adoption since you already looked into fostering - and therefore presumably see parenting as raising a child and not creating a human who shares your DNA.   

Most people just have no idea what adoption involves.

Adoption is an expensive and emotionally tumultuous experience. It is not for the faint of heart. Every kind of adoption has issues: domestic infant adoption is the only way to get a baby, and you have to compete heavily against other couples (many whom have been waiting for years) and still have no idea what the mother may have ingested or injected along the way. International adoption is different for every country, but it is difficult to get a young healthy child, impossible to get an infant, and you have the other issues of not knowing the child's history. It also costs more, since you have to travel to the child's country of origin, sometimes for weeks at a time, to complete interviews and paperwork, and then go back again to get the child.

It is a huge misconception that there are plenty of healthy babies just waiting for a loving home. There are TONS of kids who need adopted, but they are all older, and many (most?) have special needs. There is a strong need for people who can be parents for them, but I am not ready for an older or special needs child. We are keeping that open as an option after we get some "parenting experience", though. As newbie parents, we are just not prepared for that.

Not sure what you mean by seeing IVF as similar to "bling". Do you just mean expensive? Adoption and IVF are almost exactly the same price. Actually, if you were successful on your first IVF attempt it would be cheaper. Kids are always a luxury, and even more so when you can't make them naturally.

It is not uncommon for someone who has not experienced infertility to have certain judgments about IVF treatments. I had them myself before I went through what I have, and most people think adoption is easier than it really is. All I can say is that it is a medical condition that I intend to seek treatment for, no differently than I would for a myopia or cancer. I don't think people who get sick were "meant to" die, or near-sighted people were "meant to" see poorly, and I don't think infertile couples were "meant to" adopt.

I am not against adoption, but before I go compete for a baby with couples that legitimately cannot conceive on their own (whereas, I can with medical assistance), I don't see any reason not to first try IVF. Why take a baby from other loving couples?

kdms

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2012, 01:29:09 PM »
"Bling" generally refers to excessive spending on gadgets, doodads, and other non-essentials to dress up a basic item or process, AJ, and in some cases is done on impulse.  (I put a lot of bling on my motorcycle in my pre-mustachian days.)  In this case it would appear smalllife feels that IVF is a waste of money.

As someone who went through multiple tests, various drug cycles, three miscarriages and a DH who went through not just one but two vasectomy reversals (including one out of country at a specialist hospital) we would spend the $20000 again in a heartbeat for our son.  We looked at IVF, ICSI, and mini-IVF; fortunately, we didn't need to go there.  IVF is not a small decision to make, is not bling in my opinion, and once you make the emotional investment into becoming a parent it's not so easy to turn off the desire to be one, whether it's financially rational or not....

Age-wise....I was 30 when we started trying; 34 when our son was born.  I don't see age as a barrier, but mental and emotional preparedness is crucial.  If being FI will bring the mental peace needed, then you know what's best for you.  It's clear you've already done the medical research regarding the biologics needed.  I would vote yes on freezing eggs NOW and forking over the storage fees -- we stored viable sperm until our son was born, and it was $150 a year -- the few hundred per year is a small price to hedge against NOT doing it and should procedures in the future not be successful (god forbid) you may get a little voice saying 'what if we had?  Would it have worked?'.  7-10 years makes a big difference to egg viability....store them now, at say $300 a year, it's $3000 (plus whatever the procedure itself costs.)  Not going to make or break FI.  But that 10 years difference in egg age could make a difference to your success rate.  However....whatever you decide....best of luck!

smalllife

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2012, 01:53:18 PM »
My comparison between adoption and IVF is taking into account the cost and emotional turmoil that is roughly equivalent: thousands of dollars, potential heartbreak, and extraordinary effort in the quest to become a parent.   Wherefore the only difference becomes that one results in a genetically linked child and the other saving an already conceived/born being from foster care.  And while there is indeed a shortage of infant and newborn adoptable children, there are hundreds of thousands of older children without a home.  For that reason, I consider thousands of dollars spent on creating a life "bling" in the extreme.  Yes, you might like the outcome and not regret it for a second, but there are also other valid reasons for opposing IVF.   


happy

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2012, 06:03:20 PM »
This is not directed to AJ per se since what I have to say doesn't really apply, its just a general comment.
I was 32 when I started trying to conceive, and finally had my children at 36 and 39, after quite a tumultuous time. I was also surrounded by professional women who had put off having kids for career reasons, and then had difficulties conceiving. Some had IVF, some didn't, some had kids, some got none. Lots of stories, lots of unplanned heartache.None went down the adoption route for reasons AJ has elucidated. That was 20 years ago and what I learnt is,  for some of us, there is never "a right time", and if you really want kids at some point you just have to dive in and see. Its not something you definitively say , well when I'm 30 I will have a kid, because there's no guarantee you will conceive when you think you will. Don't wait til >35 if you really want kids because its naive to think it will automatically happen at that age.

Of course I'm all for trying for FI Before Kids, or at least a good way there so that parents can work part-time. A lot of people here are "planners", myself included....  but I've also watched numerous people miss out or nearly miss out and have severe health problems through waiting til they were "ready."  Plan, yes its better to plan,  but  be mindful that conception is something that ultimately we can't reliably control.

AJ

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2012, 09:50:11 AM »
Wherefore the only difference becomes that one results in a genetically linked child and the other saving an already conceived/born being from foster care.

This is not at all the only difference between the two, as I already explained. You are creating a straw man argument in insisting it is.

There is a *world* of difference between adopting a child at age five (the youngest you can really consider "saving" them from foster care, as there is high demand for younger children) and raising one from a baby. A world of difference.

andrew

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2012, 12:38:14 PM »
Due to a wide variety of factors, DH and I have decided to delay having kids until we FI (7-10 years). I'll be 35-38 at that time.

Not only are your chances of being able to conceive more difficult when you're 38 vs 28, but your chances of having a baby with down's syndrome go up dramatically with age:
http://www.ds-health.com/risk.htm

If you're sure you want children, I'd recommend you start having them sooner rather than later.

smalllife

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Re: Putting off parenthood
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2012, 02:10:59 PM »
Wherefore the only difference becomes that one results in a genetically linked child and the other saving an already conceived/born being from foster care.

This is not at all the only difference between the two, as I already explained. You are creating a straw man argument in insisting it is.

There is a *world* of difference between adopting a child at age five (the youngest you can really consider "saving" them from foster care, as there is high demand for younger children) and raising one from a baby. A world of difference.

That particular sentence was comparing the costs and emotional turmoil associated with IVF vs. adoption of an infant/newborn.  The fact of creating another human vs. not is still applicable, as are the extraordinary costs and desires to create a being with your DNA.