Author Topic: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement  (Read 38694 times)

grantmeaname

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2012, 07:14:38 AM »
Others, with more knowledge of (pre)history and human nature, would claim that the current tribes had conquered/stole those lands from earlier peoples, who took them from still earlier ones, all the way back to the second group to come over the Bering land bridge.
My anthropological-bullshit-meter is screaming. You pulled this one out of your ass.
The date of the first migration is not pinned down even to within a millennium. There are sites up and down both coasts and inland on both continents dating to mere centuries after the first firm Alaskan migration dates. There's no clear cultural or genetic link between the first people and their successors, or their successors and their successors' successors, on and on until at least 0 AD (that's probably the first 10,000 years of the Americas' prehistory, for those of you at home keeping count). In most of the nation, including here in the Ohio Valley where my research and study has been done, there's not even a clear link between the historic tribes and their immediate (1300-~1600AD) successors.

On top of that, no halfway self-respecting social scientist would dare to try and characterize the murky, distant, and poorly-understood interactions between two societies millennia ago as stealing lands; in fact, the data are not even there to suggest that conquest is the only possible way in which cultural change was effected. It could also be intermarriage, religious conversion, technological adoption, religious revival, migration, theft or trade of intellectual property, theft or trade of material property, changes in dominant funerary ideas, or extinction of societies due to infectious disease, malnutrition, war with neighbors other than those who replaced them, or changing climatic or ecological conditions (to name a few). The archaeological record has to be extraordinarily clear in order to even begin to tease apart such a complicated knot, and it seldom is except for in very recent history. Even if the cause could be determined to be conquest by some miracle of preservation and interpretation, calling it theft is assigning our moral values to their actions, a flagrant ethnocentric bias that does nothing for our understanding of the events as they transpired and instead seeks to box them in to our tidy narratives. That shit would not get you published. It would get you laughed out of the profession.

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2012, 10:31:53 PM »
On top of that, no halfway self-respecting social scientist would dare to try and characterize the murky, distant, and poorly-understood interactions between two societies millennia ago as stealing lands; in fact, the data are not even there to suggest that conquest is the only possible way in which cultural change was effected. It could also be intermarriage, religious conversion, technological adoption, religious revival, migration, theft or trade of intellectual property, theft or trade of material property, changes in dominant funerary ideas, or extinction of societies due to infectious disease, malnutrition, war with neighbors other than those who replaced them, or changing climatic or ecological conditions (to name a few).

Certainly.  And all of those applied as well to the European migration to the Americas.  The point here is that reality does not conform to your ideas of political correctness.

sol

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2012, 11:21:37 PM »
Certainly.  And all of those applied as well to the European migration to the Americas.  The point here is that reality does not conform to your ideas of political correctness.

Do you think those complications to understanding societal interactions are equally difficult for the historic European migrations, for which we have written records, and the American migrations, which predated their written language by centuries or millenia?

It seems pretty clear to me that we have a much better understanding of how Europeans acquired land than we do about how Native Americans acquired land.  At the very least, I think you have to concede that we know for a fact that Europeans deliberately infected and murdered and pillaged, while we have no records for Native Americans.  I suppose it's possible they also knew how to use smallpox and firearms to decimate their enemies, but we don't know for a fact that they used them. 

It's not a matter of political correctness, just the quality of the historical record.

But hey, if you sleep better at night thinking white Europeans have never done harm to the world, I will not attempt disrupt your fantasy too much.  I recognize that cognitive dissonance is usually a prerequisite for bigotry, and I'll go ahead and defend your right to spout whatever racist bullshit you can think of.

Please, tell us some more about how your ancestors kindly rescued the savages.  Don't forget the part about saving their souls!

sol

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2012, 11:22:06 PM »
Sorry, apparently I'm feeling pissy this evening and you're an easy target.

grantmeaname

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2012, 06:36:22 AM »
Please, tell us some more about how your ancestors kindly rescued the savages.  Don't forget the part about saving their souls!
The first time I heard this argument was from one of the really fundamental evangelical crowd (like, women forbidden from wearing pants). She was talking about "savages" driving themselves extinct in Peru until missionaries came and showed them Jesus and The One Right Way to Live. I was so dumbfounded that I was actually at a loss for words (which doesn't happen often).

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2012, 12:14:27 PM »
Please, tell us some more about how your ancestors kindly rescued the savages.  Don't forget the part about saving their souls!

Hate to tell you this, but a good many of my ancestors WERE those savages - see your remark about intermarriage above.  And since the closest I come to religion is a kind of agnostic paganism, I'm not all that enthused about the saving of souls, either.

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At the very least, I think you have to concede that we know for a fact that Europeans deliberately infected and murdered and pillaged...

No, I don't have to concede anything of the sort.  How were the Europeans supposed to have DELIBERATELY infected American populations, when they had no clue as to how diseases were caused, or spread?  Should we hold the American population responsible for deliberately infecting Europe with syphilis?  Fact is, microbes don't care: let them lose in a population without native resistance, and they spread.

As for murder & pillage, we've got plenty of historical evidence for that among the peoples of the Americas.  See for instance (just off the top of my head) the history of the Iroquois Confederacy and the Iroquis-Huron wars, the expansion of the Sioux into the plains (a consequence of having acquired horse technology), the relations between the Apache & Pueblo peoples in the southwest...  Or consider how Cortez managed to find native allies for his conquest of the Aztecs. 

As I said, murder & pillage are just human nature.  Those with numbers and/or technology on their side tend to be better at it, but that has nothing to do with any innate lack of morality, nor does it imply that the murdered & pillaged were morally superior.  As has long been noted, God's on the side of the big battalions.

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »
No, I don't have to concede anything of the sort.  How were the Europeans supposed to have DELIBERATELY infected American populations, when they had no clue as to how diseases were caused, or spread?  Should we hold the American population responsible for deliberately infecting Europe with syphilis?  Fact is, microbes don't care: let them lose in a population without native resistance, and they spread.

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Enjoy your crow.

grantmeaname

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2012, 12:32:59 PM »
As I said, murder & pillage are just human nature.
You're entitled to believe whatever you want, I suppose. Just don't go passing it off as if your opinions are factual.

sol

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2012, 05:58:57 PM »
How were the Europeans supposed to have DELIBERATELY infected American populations,

Whole books have been written on this topic, and I suggest you spend five minutes with google before you go making an ass of yourself like that.

IPD has already given you a good place to start.  Dig a little deeper, and you'll find that European explorers, colonists, and governments have a long history of deliberately infecting native populations with known pathogens, even when they didn't understand how the contagion worked.

Just becuase they didn't know leprosy was a bacterial disease doesn't mean they didn't understand that it was contagious, and there are documented cases of sending out lepers to have contact with indigenous peoples.  Smallpox was used extensively in North America throughout the 1800s.  Bubonic plague corpses were catapulted into Muslim cities during the Crusades.  Even STDs have been used as a subtle ancillary bonus to rape when conquerors looted cities of their women.

But I don't expect you to believe any of that, or any of the thousands of books that document such cases, because you've repeatedly demonstrated a complete disregard for known facts.  So you go right ahead and continue to believe that Europeans have never done anything wrong. 

You could do the rest of us a favor by keeping your racist counterfactual bullshit to yourself, though.  It just pollutes the discussion.

darkelenchus

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2012, 07:03:34 PM »
As I said, murder & pillage are just human nature.

What's this Jamesqf? You've got a perpetual motion machine you're selling?

There's also a distinction between the positive "There is no answer" and the indefinite "You don't know the answer, nor do I, so until you do have a provably correct answer, stop insisting that I use the one you'd like to be correct."

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The first step towards knowledge is admitting you don't know.

Yes.  The problem is that in the moral area, lots of people not only vehemently insist that they DO know, but are quite emphatic about you accepting their particular answer.

Have you just outed yourself as one who disregards the normative implications of knowing what you don't know?

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2012, 11:29:40 PM »
Whole books have been written on this topic, and I suggest you spend five minutes with google before you go making an ass of yourself like that.

Yeah, books get written on all sorts of things.  Doesn't mean they're truth.

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You could do the rest of us a favor by keeping your racist counterfactual bullshit to yourself, though.  It just pollutes the discussion.

So it's neither racist nor counterfactual to claim that only people of one particular race ever travelled to other lands, conquered the people there, and passed along various pathogens in the process?  (In both directions: you might consider the long list of plagues brought back to Europe by travellers, starting with the Greeks & Romans.)  All I can say is that you'd do the world a favor by keeping your leftist claptrap to yourself, too.

sol

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2012, 07:34:35 AM »
Yeah, books get written on all sorts of things.  Doesn't mean they're truth.

In this case, yes it does.  Not that I expect you to care about truth at this point.

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So it's neither racist nor counterfactual to claim that only people of one particular race ever travelled to other lands, conquered the people there, and passed along various pathogens in the process?

Neither of us claimed that other ethnic group haven't inadvertently spread disease, but YOU claimed that Europeans never deliberately spread disease to indigenous populations, which is demonstrably false.  In case you're trying to forget, you might consider rereading what you've recently written.

This isn't leftist claptrap so much as history.

I grew up with a bunch of white supremacists, and I heard this exact same BS from them all the time.  It started with "all of the bad stuff that whites did was just accidental" and then progressed to "dark people did all kinds of bad stuff too" and finally ended up with "whites did the world a favor by conquering all those dark people."  I'm summarizing for the sake of brevity, but I suspect you don't need me to flesh out these points any further because you can already fill in the details based on your existing racist philosophy.

You don't happen to live in North Idaho, do you?

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2012, 12:53:41 PM »
Racist philosophy?  I really can't see how pointing out that humans are all pretty much alike in their motivations and actions can be construed as racist.  But of course, I don't suffer from your particular distorted view of reality.

I do stand by what I have written: Europeans as a group did not mount concerted efforts to spread diseases.  This is of course not saying that there may not be some few isolated incidents where individuals or small groups did so.  I apologize for having neither the time nor space (or indeed, desire) to write a text on the subject containing footnotes, references, and so forth.  I also apologize for overestimating your reading comprehension.

Just to address one of your claims, leprosy is not highly contagious, so sending lepers to make contact with indigenous people would have done nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy  If we look at the Americas, the diseases which did the most damage were those like measles, which the Europeans didn't even notice, having generations of acquired immunity.  That immunity was bought at a price, as when the disease first reached Europe, it caused similar pandemics.  See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Plague 

As for truth, and which of us cares more about it, these things are ultimately testable by microbiology &c, which I much prefer to anyone's ingrained political beliefs.

Now as for those catapulted plague corpses, even a cursory search finds similar accounts of Muslim armies tossing corpses into European cities, for instance here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/bio_plague.htm  I don't pretend to know which are verifiable truth.  I expect both are.  As I said, human nature is pretty much the same across racial, ethnic, and cultural boundaries, however much you'd like to think otherwise.

grantmeaname

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2012, 12:59:29 PM »
Now that "I'm right cuz anthropology" has failed you, you turn to "I'm right cuz microbiology". Color me unimpressed.

And even then, it wouldn't support your argument about human nature being universal. Remember what I said at the top of this page about boxing events as they transpired into narratives for our own purposes, and how it's bad?

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2012, 01:27:29 PM »
Remember what I said at the top of this page about boxing events as they transpired into narratives for our own purposes, and how it's bad?

Oh, I get it now!  That boxing of events is only ok when you folks put all European actions into the "evil land stealers and intentional disease spreaders" box :-)

grantmeaname

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2012, 01:40:20 PM »
What do you mean, you people?

I didn't say anything of the sort, by the way.

Midwest

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2012, 03:44:33 PM »

Inheritance undermines the American ideal of equal opportunity and concentrates wealth without adding value to society or the economy, as well as leading to a quasi-aristocratic class with the power to undermine democracy.
Yet many claim that the property rights of the newly deceased should outweigh the benefits to society of redistribution.


The alternative to allowing individuals to pass on wealth is for the government to take all or a substantial portion via the inheritance tax (which it appears you support).  Doesn't your position assume the government is a better steward of the assets than the family.

Giving the goverment additional assets further increases the power of the government.  I would argue the transferring assets simply transfers power from a smaller entity (the family) to an even larger entity with more resources (the govt).  I'm not convinced that's a good thing.

Additionally, with regard to family owned businesses and farms, the inheritance tax can have the impact of harming the community (ie job cuts) as the owners struggle to pay the tax via what may be illiquid assets.

Respectfully,

Midwest
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 08:38:57 PM by Midwest »

Bakari

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2012, 09:52:52 PM »
I don't think anything James said implies racism.
At worst, a little bit of ignorance, but even that is debatable.

But James, no one here is saying "whitey is the devil".
No one is saying everyone of European decent is evil, and they have caused all bad things that ever happened.
And most of all, no one is blaming you personally, nor your family, nor even your ancestors, for things which some Europeans in a position of power have done.

Obviously many societies have done bad things to other humans throughout history, but for whatever reason there are some very notable bad things that Europeans have done in the relatively recent past that don't really have a parallel.

Slavery has existed nearly as long as civilization.  However, in the majority of cases, slaves were recognized to be people.  They were the losers of battles, or people who couldn't repay debts.  There were rules to how their owners could treat them, and they often had rights - sometimes even property rights.
The US stands out as a rare (possibly unique) example of slaves being treated as farm animals. 
Actually, if a modern farmer were to treat his farm animals the way slaves sometimes were, he would probably be shut down and fined for cruelty to animals.
This invalidates your argument that the African societies which captured and sold people into slavery deserve equal blame - they had no way to know the conditions they were selling people into.  You don't blame the pet store owner when a kid tortures his pet, because most people wouldn't do that.

Sure, many societies throughout history have conquered others.  But there are very few examples of a society (with no historical claim to a given land) coming in and deliberately and systematically killing or displacing the entirety of the indigenous population.  In South America there was a mixing of cultures and widespread intermarriage that lead to the modern Latino.  But in the US there was very little intermarriage, and a lot more of the deliberate spreading of smallpox.  If the new comers tried to spread leprosy, but accidentally spread measles instead, I'm not sure how it makes anything better.  (If you shoot someone, and the shock makes them die of a heart attack, does that make you less guilty?).  How many places can you find tiny patches of the least useful land set aside as reservations for the few remaining aboriginal inhabitants?

Maybe the only reason the first settlers to the US did these things and not anyone else was an accident of circumstance - they were the first with the means to do so.  Maybe if someone else had ocean worthy ships, horses, and guns, they would have done the same thing.  But that's not what happened.

What I first said that lead to this whole tangent was just that the land of America was taken by force.  Whether or not other cultures have done similar things is irrelevant to my point.  My point was to call into question the supposedly inalienable human right of private property.

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2012, 10:07:19 PM »
The alternative to allowing individuals to pass on wealth is for the government to take all or a substantial portion via the inheritance tax (which it appears you support).  Doesn't your position assume the government is a better steward of the assets than the family.

Giving the goverment additional assets further increases the power of the government.  I would argue the transferring assets simply transfers power from a smaller entity (the family) to an even larger entity with more resources (the govt).  I'm not convinced that's a good thing.

Additionally, with regard to family owned businesses and farms, the inheritance tax can have the impact of harming the community (ie job cuts) as the owners struggle to pay the tax via what may be illiquid assets.

Respectfully,

Midwest

The United States of America is a democracy.
It may not be a perfect democracy - it isn't direct, there is some corruption, and its size necessitates a less than ideal level of bureaucracy.
It is still a democracy.

So when you talk about "The Government", try to remember that you are talking about us, all of us, the citizens of the US.
If "The Government" is a bad steward of the nation's resources, there is no one you can blame for that but We the People.  We choose the specific individuals doing the stewardship.

Yes, I think a democratic government is a better steward of resources - given the goal of bettering society overall, for everyone - than a private individual family, who's primary goal is bettering their own lives.

If we were to return massive estates to the community upon a successful person's death, it would allow the tax rates on the living to drop enormously.  The wealth currently held by the top 0.5% would be enough to not only cover the deficit - it is enough to cover the ENTIRE DEBT.  This in turn would mean interest on the debt (which is one of the single biggest uses of taxpayer dollars) would drop to zero, which would in turn mean the government would have to collect even less total taxes - which means they would need to be stewards of a smaller amount of resources.

People talk about the government like its some giant lumbering beast out in the forest somewhere, that no one has any control over.  Wealth redistribution doesn't mean the government gets to hold all this money so it can play with it and do what ever it wants.  Roads and courts and jails and firefighters and mosquito abatement and police and bridges and utility infrastructure all have to get paid for somehow.  These things benefit everyone, and the free market won't create on its own.  That's why we (humans) invented government in the first place.


Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2012, 10:54:57 PM »
But James, no one here is saying "whitey is the devil".
No one is saying everyone of European decent is evil, and they have caused all bad things that ever happened.

No? Re-read some of the previous posts.

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And most of all, no one is blaming you personally, nor your family, nor even your ancestors, for things which some Europeans in a position of power have done.

That would be ridiculous for several reasons - not that being ridiculous ever stopped the people who like to do this.  First on the list, of course, is that I wasn't born until long after the events being discussed, though again, that has never stopped the non-racists who like to assign genetic blame.  Then you get to the amusing part, which is that a good many of my ancestors were on the other side.

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The US stands out as a rare (possibly unique) example of slaves being treated as farm animals.

Well, no.  Read up on the Islamic slave trade.

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This invalidates your argument that the African societies which captured and sold people into slavery deserve equal blame - they had no way to know the conditions they were selling people into.

I don't think I was discussing African societies in particular, but the Arab/Islamic middlemen who originated & facilitated the African trade, and who also carried out slave raids from Iceland & Ireland to the lands around the Black Sea.

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Sure, many societies throughout history have conquered others.  But there are very few examples of a society (with no historical claim to a given land) coming in and deliberately and systematically killing or displacing the entirety of the indigenous population.

Nor did the European settlers of North America do this.  The epidemics were  accidents, in no way differing from the plagues brought back to Europe by explorers & traders.  Look up the term "virgin field epidemic" sometime.  As I said before, that's what microbes do, and they wiil do it perfectly well without human help.

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But in the US there was very little intermarriage...

Not entirely true.  There was quite a bit of intermarriage, but the overwhelming number of immigrants to the US starting in the mid-1800s swamped the original populations.  I don't think that Central & South America had anywhere near the same level of immigration as the US.

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How many places can you find tiny patches of the least useful land set aside as reservations for the few remaining aboriginal inhabitants?

Very few, because in most places the aboriginal inhabitants were killed or enslaved.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2012, 07:44:08 AM »
The United States of America is a democracy.
It may not be a perfect democracy - it isn't direct, there is some corruption, and its size necessitates a less than ideal level of bureaucracy.
It is still a democracy.

So when you talk about "The Government", try to remember that you are talking about us, all of us, the citizens of the US.
If "The Government" is a bad steward of the nation's resources, there is no one you can blame for that but We the People.  We choose the specific individuals doing the stewardship.

I think that is what it started as and lived as for a number of years, and while technically we are still a democracy in reality we have become an oligarchy.  This has ocurred because of voters becoming dienfranchised by the absolute abhorrence of our polical representatives, that their self interests motivate them above all esle, and that money drives politics more than the notion of actually representing the people.  And we the people have become lazy as a result, so it was refreshing to see the tea party movement, the occupy movement, and the 99% movement. 

We the people are not good stewards of our individual resources even when they are limited, so what would make you think that the the government run for and by the "we the people" is a good steward of our resources when those resources are unlimited (taxes, debt, printing). 


If we were to return massive estates to the community upon a successful person's death, it would allow the tax rates on the living to drop enormously.  The wealth currently held by the top 0.5% would be enough to not only cover the deficit - it is enough to cover the ENTIRE DEBT.  This in turn would mean interest on the debt (which is one of the single biggest uses of taxpayer dollars) would drop to zero, which would in turn mean the government would have to collect even less total taxes - which means they would need to be stewards of a smaller amount of resources.

People talk about the government like its some giant lumbering beast out in the forest somewhere, that no one has any control over.  Wealth redistribution doesn't mean the government gets to hold all this money so it can play with it and do what ever it wants.  Roads and courts and jails and firefighters and mosquito abatement and police and bridges and utility infrastructure all have to get paid for somehow.  These things benefit everyone, and the free market won't create on its own.  That's why we (humans) invented government in the first place.

This is simply not true. If the government took all wealth upon death it would merely evaporate and not be accretive to society. Much of this wealth, its value comes from the ability of its people and assets to create future cash flow - in the governments hands this would not be the case. Taxes are paid on these cash flows year after year and that is what supports those government services.  Furthermore, there would be no reason to accumulate wealth if it ultimately will be taken away. 

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2012, 10:13:12 AM »
I think that is what it started as and lived as for a number of years, and while technically we are still a democracy in reality we have become an oligarchy.  This has ocurred because of voters becoming dienfranchised by the absolute abhorrence of our polical representatives, that their self interests motivate them above all esle, and that money drives politics more than the notion of actually representing the people. 
But if we chose representatives who are motivated by self-interest, who else can we blame for that than ourselves?  Think they guy in office is corrupt?  Start a recall campaign, pick someone better, and if everyone running is a jerk, apply for the job yourself! 
Your argument is circular - people don't vote because they don't like the people who are in office!?!?
Much of the way in which money drives politics is campaign donations.  If people didn't vote on the basis on TV commercials, campaign donations would have much less influence.

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And we the people have become lazy as a result, so it was refreshing to see the tea party movement, the occupy movement, and the 99% movement. 
agreed

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We the people are not good stewards of our individual resources even when they are limited, so what would make you think that the the government run for and by the "we the people" is a good steward of our resources when those resources are unlimited (taxes, debt, printing). 
Fair point.
But what is the alternative?  A benign dictatorship?  Not a bad solution, but it only works if you get lucky and have a dictator who genuinely wants what is best for the country and not just himself.  Arguably could apply to Castro, but very few of the dictators of the world.  Otherwise, the best we got is democracy.


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This is simply not true. If the government took all wealth upon death it would merely evaporate and not be accretive to society. Much of this wealth, its value comes from the ability of its people and assets to create future cash flow - in the governments hands this would not be the case. Taxes are paid on these cash flows year after year and that is what supports those government services. 
What do you mean wealth would "evaporate"?
The taxes that get paid now don't all just evaporate.  Some of it goes to transfer payments, some of it gos to services, and some of it goes to infrastructure.  The existence of that infrastructure and services make it possible for citizens to create value.  And if you read my last post carefully, I wasn't suggesting giving additional money to government.  I was suggesting that we could lower income taxes on the living if we replaced that money with wealth held by people who can no longer use it anyway. 

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Furthermore, there would be no reason to accumulate wealth if it ultimately will be taken away.
Now that's just plain silly.  People accumulate wealth so that they can spend it and enjoy the things it buys.
How many people are under the impression that being rich is going to allow them to live forever?  God is the one who decides to one day take everything away from us, not the government.  Ultimately everything gets taken from us.  That's just reality. 
But if someone feels that it isn't worth it to become rich because he can't pass his money down to his kids, and therefore chooses not to, fine.

Midwest

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2012, 10:15:20 AM »
The alternative to allowing individuals to pass on wealth is for the government to take all or a substantial portion via the inheritance tax (which it appears you support).  Doesn't your position assume the government is a better steward of the assets than the family.

Giving the goverment additional assets further increases the power of the government.  I would argue the transferring assets simply transfers power from a smaller entity (the family) to an even larger entity with more resources (the govt).  I'm not convinced that's a good thing.

Additionally, with regard to family owned businesses and farms, the inheritance tax can have the impact of harming the community (ie job cuts) as the owners struggle to pay the tax via what may be illiquid assets.

Respectfully,

Midwest

The United States of America is a democracy.
It may not be a perfect democracy - it isn't direct, there is some corruption, and its size necessitates a less than ideal level of bureaucracy.
It is still a democracy.

So when you talk about "The Government", try to remember that you are talking about us, all of us, the citizens of the US.
If "The Government" is a bad steward of the nation's resources, there is no one you can blame for that but We the People.  We choose the specific individuals doing the stewardship.

Yes, I think a democratic government is a better steward of resources - given the goal of bettering society overall, for everyone - than a private individual family, who's primary goal is bettering their own lives.

Agreed, in the US we are all represented in the government via representatives and as citizens do have the opportunity to vote. 

The vast majority of government activities, however, are performed by employees.  Those employees (who we don't elect) and the elected officials ultimately in charge have an enormous self interest in maintaining or even increasing the size of government.  I'm not saying they are all evil people, but self interest is human nature. 

We have an enormous inefficient government beauracracy with power and resources interested in at least maintaining the status quo. 

Take a look at the marijuana drug laws for example (FYI I'm a non-user so I'm not making this argument from a self-interest standpoint).  We have a failed policy which criminalizes an activity that a significant part of the populace participates in.  Certain populations in the country (ie CA) and maybe even a majority of the country don't agree with the policy don't agree.  In addition, the illegalization incarcerates a significant number of citizens, increases drug violence and finances criminal endeavors. 

Given that framework, why is marijuana still illegal?  I would argue that law enforcement (federal and local), border patrol, and the prison industry all have a vested interest in keeping their jobs and power.  I look at that and many other cases and see no benefit in increasing the size of government and an enormous agrument for decreasing.

If we were to return massive estates to the community upon a successful person's death, it would allow the tax rates on the living to drop enormously.  The wealth currently held by the top 0.5% would be enough to not only cover the deficit - it is enough to cover the ENTIRE DEBT.  This in turn would mean interest on the debt (which is one of the single biggest uses of taxpayer dollars) would drop to zero, which would in turn mean the government would have to collect even less total taxes - which means they would need to be stewards of a smaller amount of resources.

Those massive estates often produce an enormous amount of jobs and income taxes when continued to be held in private hands.  Private businesses are the lifeblood of the economy and the estate tax is an enormous burden to them.

Am I correct that you are advocating a 100% estate tax over some asset level and a nearly 100% income tax at some income level?  Asssuming I'm correct on my understanding of your position, what makes you think wealth won't just leave the US over time?

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2012, 10:22:25 AM »
I'm curious how such an estate tax would play out. As I understand it, much of the wealth under discussion is tied up in the stock market. If it were suddenly to be acquired by the government, wouldn't this lead to either A) the government owning significant portions of large companies, possibly eventually acquiring/nationalizing them, or B) rapidly selling the stocks, causing the value to crash and the wealth to evaporate like tooqk4u22 describes?

Those are the scenarios I can imagine, but I don't know what I'm talking about here so please correct me.

Midwest

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2012, 10:30:52 AM »
I'm curious how such an estate tax would play out. As I understand it, much of the wealth under discussion is tied up in the stock market. If it were suddenly to be acquired by the government, wouldn't this lead to either A) the government owning significant portions of large companies, possibly eventually acquiring/nationalizing them, or B) rapidly selling the stocks, causing the value to crash and the wealth to evaporate like tooqk4u22 describes?

Those are the scenarios I can imagine, but I don't know what I'm talking about here so please correct me.

A good portion would be tied up in the stock markets.  As the law stands now, estates would be forced to liquidate the assets and pay cash to the govt.

Another portion is tied up in privately held companies and farms.  Many of these assets are ill-liquid and must be liquidated and/or burdened with debt in order to pay the estate tax.  This often isn't good for the employees or the community.

For example, assume I have 10 nursing homes employing over a thousand people.  Upon my death, the estate is valued and the govt must be paid the tax owed.  The estate has the choice of liquidating or financing the debt because it probably doesn't have enough liquid assets to cover the tax.  This places a burden on the owners, employees and residents of the nursing home. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:34:54 AM by Midwest »

tooqk4u22

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2012, 10:39:21 AM »
But if we chose representatives who are motivated by self-interest, who else can we blame for that than ourselves?  Think they guy in office is corrupt?  Start a recall campaign, pick someone better, and if everyone running is a jerk, apply for the job yourself! 
Your argument is circular - people don't vote because they don't like the people who are in office!?!?
Much of the way in which money drives politics is campaign donations.  If people didn't vote on the basis on TV commercials, campaign donations would have much less influence.

I agree with, but I think you understand my point.  All of what you are saying is true - we (general voting population) put someone in office and we can also choose to not re-elect and even attempt to recall but we are also extremely disenfranchised and have a feeling of hopelessness and that results in people not voting or voting for the status quo.  Voter turnout is low in general for presidential elections and is non-existent for local and state elections.

Fair point.
But what is the alternative?  A benign dictatorship?  Not a bad solution, but it only works if you get lucky and have a dictator who genuinely wants what is best for the country and not just himself.  Arguably could apply to Castro, but very few of the dictators of the world.  Otherwise, the best we got is democracy.

A dictator is not the answer, the answer lies in yours/my comments about effecting change and creating a sense of hope - While I don't like his policies or political style Obama managed to create this sense of hope to get elected but failed miserably in seeing it through and unfortunately now people are more disenfranchised and mistrusting of government.  In defense of Obama, I will also say that he campaigned on hope and spelled out is key initiatives, all of which he focused on after being elected and accomplishing some with the big one being health care....unfortunately the people heard the hope but not the message and when it happened people didn't like him anymore.  To me he was one of the rare politicians that actually did, or tried to do, what he said he would.....that's respectable.

I was suggesting that we could lower income taxes on the living if we replaced that money with wealth held by people who can no longer use it anyway.


Fair enough, I missed this.  But keep in mind that half the population doesn't pay federal taxes as pointed out previously and if there is a 100% inheritance tax people would just transfer the wealth prior to death or via trusts and the like.  There would be unintended consequences.

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2012, 12:17:12 PM »
But if we chose representatives who are motivated by self-interest, who else can we blame for that than ourselves?  Think they guy in office is corrupt?  Start a recall campaign, pick someone better, and if everyone running is a jerk, apply for the job yourself!

But who's the we here?  That's the fundamental problem with democracy: it assumes that everyone wants pretty much the same thing.  If you have a heterogenous population, with many groups wanting different and often incompatible things, it fails.

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But what is the alternative?  A benign dictatorship?  Not a bad solution, but it only works if you get lucky and have a dictator who genuinely wants what is best for the country and not just himself.  Arguably could apply to Castro...

Castro?  Oh, be serious!  The only dictator I can recall that came even close to fitting the benign description was Pinochet.

(Which demonstrates that the fundamental problem of democracy, above, also applies to dictators :-))

Bakari

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2012, 08:03:58 AM »
Given that framework, why is marijuana still illegal?

Because about 1/2 the country is against legalization.  In CA, where the percentage of supporters is higher, it has been legalized for medical use.

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Those massive estates often produce an enormous amount of jobs and income taxes when continued to be held in private hands.
I don't understand what you are suggesting.  If A company isn't held in private hands, it no longer produces jobs?
First of all, the company doesn't "produce" the job in the first place (see: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2012/06/poor-person-never-gave-me-job.html )
Also: Facebook just went public recently.  The company was held in private hands, now it isn't.  That didn't mean they fired all their staff.

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Private businesses are the lifeblood of the economy and the estate tax is an enormous burden to them.
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever that it is a burden to them?

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Am I correct that you are advocating a 100% estate tax over some asset level and a nearly 100% income tax at some income level?  Assuming I'm correct on my understanding of your position, what makes you think wealth won't just leave the US over time?
You are correct.

Because the US is a great place to live.  Because much of the rest of the first world taxes wealth higher than we do already.  Because back when we had a 94% to income tax bracket and 77% estate tax, wealth didn't leave the US.

A good portion would be tied up in the stock markets.  As the law stands now, estates would be forced to liquidate the assets and pay cash to the govt.

Another portion is tied up in privately held companies and farms.  Many of these assets are ill-liquid and must be liquidated and/or burdened with debt in order to pay the estate tax.  This often isn't good for the employees or the community.

Common theory, but not supported by real life: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/08/us/talk-of-lost-farms-reflects-muddle-of-estate-tax-debate.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2655

But lets say a company did have to liquidate.  That doesn't mean they would shut down - that wouldn't generate any revenue anyway.  It means they would sell.  Companies get bought and sold all the time.  That doesn't mean all the employees get fired or the product stops getting produced.  It just means someone else is sitting in the office at headquarters.

if there is a 100% inheritance tax people would just transfer the wealth prior to death or via trusts and the like.  There would be unintended consequences.
Which is why there is also a gift tax.  Sure, there are always unintended consequences, that isn't a reason for inaction.

But who's the we here?  That's the fundamental problem with democracy: it assumes that everyone wants pretty much the same thing.  If you have a heterogenous population, with many groups wanting different and often incompatible things, it fails.

Agreed.  Do you have a better idea?
We could split the country up into smaller units - say, each state it's own country?  I'd support that.

Jamesqf

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2012, 12:24:03 PM »
But who's the we here?  That's the fundamental problem with democracy: it assumes that everyone wants pretty much the same thing.  If you have a heterogenous population, with many groups wanting different and often incompatible things, it fails.

Agreed.  Do you have a better idea?

Yeah, a government of strictly limited powers, pretty much as was envisioned by the framers of the US Constitution.  (And to avoid more thread drift, I certainly admit that the reality of what they were able to do fell short of the vision in many ways.)  So even if 90% of the people vote to say you can't smoke marijuana, or have to go to church, the government can do nothing legally to stop you.

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We could split the country up into smaller units - say, each state it's own country?  I'd support that.

That wouldn't work if done by states, as many of them still have polarizing divisions.  Consider NYC vs the rural upstate areas, the half-dozen or so disconnected lands of California, or Nevada, where Las Vegas seems to exist in an entirely different dimension from the rest of the state.

Midwest

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »
Given that framework, why is marijuana still illegal?

Because about 1/2 the country is against legalization.  In CA, where the percentage of supporters is higher, it has been legalized for medical use.

A majority of Californian's are for some legalizaton, yet the federal govt refuses to cede its power on the subject.  I think that is the perfect argument for a smaller federal govt.

Those massive estates often produce an enormous amount of jobs and income taxes when continued to be held in private hands.
I don't understand what you are suggesting.  If A company isn't held in private hands, it no longer produces jobs?

I'm suggesting wealth in private hands has the capacity to produce jobs and taxes.  Although the govt has employees, it relies entirely on the private sector for taxes to finance its programs.  Without the private sector, the govt goes bankrupt.

First of all, the company doesn't "produce" the job in the first place (see: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2012/06/poor-person-never-gave-me-job.html )
Also: Facebook just went public recently.  The company was held in private hands, now it isn't.  That didn't mean they fired all their staff.

Entrepreneurs produce jobs.  Facebook is a perfect example.  The founder created a product and sells it effectively.  As far as facebook going public, you are confusing the terms.  Facebook was privately held and is offered its stock the public.  There is no govt involvement with the company at this point. 

Communism/socialism has been a huge failure as an economic model.  USSR/Cuba are not entities we want to emulate.  China has even moved to a more capitalistic model because it simply works better.

Private businesses are the lifeblood of the economy and the estate tax is an enormous burden to them.
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever that it is a burden to them?

How about a simple example.  Small debt free business with a value of $10M.  Owner has no other liquid assets.  Owner dies and wishes to pass on to his children who are also involved in the business.  Using the 55% rate and 1.0M exemption going into effect in 2013, estate would owe $5.0M in estate taxes.  In addition, ownership would also need to pay income taxes on the current income of the business.  This creates a huge cash drain the business which may or may not survive.  When you take a substantial portion of the equity of the business and pay it to the govt, it is not a positive event for the company.

Am I correct that you are advocating a 100% estate tax over some asset level and a nearly 100% income tax at some income level?  Assuming I'm correct on my understanding of your position, what makes you think wealth won't just leave the US over time?
You are correct.

Because the US is a great place to live.  Because much of the rest of the first world taxes wealth higher than we do already.  Because back when we had a 94% to income tax bracket and 77% estate tax, wealth didn't leave the US. 

The US is a great place to live.  One of the reasons is the economic freedom we enjoy.  I assure you, money will leave if the tax rates are pushed up high enough.  For example, facebook founder denounced his US citizenship recently over taxes.  MD recently introduced a millionaires tax.  Guess what, the millionaires left in droves.

When we had those types of taxes, the US had a much larger competitive advantange over the rest of the world.  Unfortunately, that moat has been eroded to some extent.   Raise the tax high enough and those remaining will suffer.

In addition, you are proposing a 100% tax rate on income over a certain level.  Why are people going to risk their capital and waste their time when the govt gets all or nearly all of their income?  Contrary to popular belief, the wealthy aren't stupid or powerless.  You must provide incentive (ie wealth at the indiv. level) for innovation to occur.

Bakari

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2012, 10:00:48 PM »
You didn't seem to get my overall point.
Even if an heir did need to sell a company due to estate tax, the company wouldn't disappear.
It would just pass into the hands of whoever bought it.  The heir has to do their own labor or innovation, and build their own fortune, and at the same time the existing business becomes an investment opportunity for someone else.

With the income brought it by estate tax, we could lover the income tax rate on everyone else, creating MORE incentive to earn money.

I think if you look at most invention and innovation throughout history, it much more frequently happens by people with a passion for what they are working on than people looking to become billionaires.  As for capital investment, wealth distributed throughout the middle class can be invested just like concentrated in the hands of a few can be.


Given the topic of this thread, I'll bring this back around: one part of being responsibly wealthy is teaching your children to be productive members of society; make them earn their own wealth - it will be better for them and for society.

AdrianM

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2012, 04:59:56 AM »
You all need to read how to live free in unfree world.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679

Why?

So you will stop trying to foist you beliefs/values upon the rest of us.

And just get on with your lives.

Devils Advocate

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #82 on: August 11, 2012, 07:56:03 AM »
AdrianM,

Yes!  I love that book!!!

Interestingly enough I become aware of that book from Jacob on ERE.  It's funny how many of the MMM forum folks are so non libertarian. 

DA

darkelenchus

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2012, 08:58:11 AM »
You all need to read how to live free in unfree world.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679

Why?

So you will stop trying to foist you beliefs/values upon the rest of us.

And just get on with your lives.

Thumbs up AdrianM! The height of ironic humor!

ShavinItForLater

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2012, 06:27:10 AM »
The book I would recommend is Economics in One Easy Lesson by Henry Hazlitt--there is an updated version, but it looks like the original 1946 version is available as a PDF online in at least one spot: http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Hazlitt00.pdf

I thought it was absolutely brilliant writing, requires no previous background in economics, and when I finished I wanted to buy and send a copy to every member of Congress.  Chapter 5 (V) I believe addresses the tangent-at-hand on inheritance taxes--I'll summarize/paraphrase here.

There would be many far reaching short and long term consequences to having 100% inheritance taxes.  When business owners know they are taking 100% of the risk of loss with their business, and that that a huge percentage of their business will be taken from them upon death, they will not risk their own capital to expand that business.  People who don't own businesses will look at that situation and be less likely to start new businesses.  Therefore, existing businesses will grow more slowly, and not create as many jobs, and there will be less new businesses, thus creating even fewer new jobs.  Iinvestments in improved machinery, factories, technology, etc. will slow.  In the long run, this prevents consumers from getting better and cheaper products and services, thus keeping real wages down.

The same would be true at the personal level for non-business owners.  If all of their income is going to be taken from them upon death, instead of them being able to give it as they choose to their own families, friends, charitable causes, etc., why should they work even one bit beyond what they need to cover their own spending?  As a result, individuals would produce less capital, and there would be less available for investment, again reducing the number of new businesses and expansion for existing businesses, directly leading to fewer private sector jobs.  Therefore, government through increased taxation are creating the unemployment they profess they are trying to solve.

Yes, a certain amount of taxation is necessary for essential government functions, and a reasonable level of taxation will not hurt production much.  But the more that is taken, the more government is keeping real wages down, and raising unemployment.

Bakari

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2012, 08:19:01 AM »
So you will stop trying to foist you beliefs/values upon the rest of us.

And just get on with your lives.

This is the internet.  No one can foist their beliefs on you here.  You have to actively open the page and read it.  If you have no interest in learning from other peoples' values, why would you read a thread about being responsible?


There would be many far reaching short and long term consequences to having 100% inheritance taxes.
100% tax above a certain level.  Not the same thing as a 100% tax.  Estate taxes have brackets, just like income taxes, and I wasn't proposing changing that, just changing the brackets.  Say, maybe 0% for the first 10k, and then increasingly progressive amounts up to 100% after 5 million, or something like that.

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When business owners know they are taking 100% of the risk of loss with their business, and that that a huge percentage of their business will be taken from them upon death, they will not risk their own capital to expand that business. 
What evidence is there that people actually behave this way in the real world?  Why would the ability to make lots of money here in the real world, while they are alive, stop being an incentive?  Do people generally make their life decisions primarily based on what will happen after they die?  Why do people who don't have kids build wealth or invest at all, if giving money to kids is the only reason for building wealth?  Why do some wealthy people give their money to charity and teach their kids to make their own way in life?

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People who don't own businesses will look at that situation and be less likely to start new businesses.  Therefore, existing businesses will grow more slowly, and not create as many jobs, and there will be less new businesses, thus creating even fewer new jobs.
As I said before, this country had at one time a 77% top estate tax and 94% income tax.  The economy didn't shut down.  I don't understand why this fact alone isn't enough to invalidate these sort of claims.
Also: businesses don't create jobs.  That's just something that republican politicians made up recently to try to get the middle class to support tax breaks for the rich (see: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2012/06/poor-person-never-gave-me-job.html )

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Iinvestments in improved machinery, factories, technology, etc. will slow.
Good.  We produce and consume way too much crap in this country.

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  In the long run, this prevents consumers from getting better and cheaper products and services, thus keeping real wages down.
Improved machinery and technology actually keeps wages down, by increasing unemployment via increased production per worker in a system where a company has the option to lay off workers based on no longer needing them, and keep the resulting increased profit.

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The same would be true at the personal level for non-business owners.  If all of their income is going to be taken from them upon death, instead of them being able to give it as they choose to their own families, friends, charitable causes, etc., why should they work even one bit beyond what they need to cover their own spending?
Isn't that kind of the whole point of Mustachianism?  Why should anyone have to work more than they actually need to?  One of the ideas that was mentioned in terms of being FI without being evil is that what we want for ourselves we should make available to everyone.  The natural consequence of that would be the economy would expand more slowly.  But that would be ok, because we wouldn't need as much total wealth if we weren't wasting so much of it on stupid crap.  At the same time, we would slow the rate at which we are using non-renewable natural resources.  Win-win.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 09:44:43 PM by Bakari »

ShavinItForLater

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2012, 09:46:55 AM »
There would be many far reaching short and long term consequences to having 100% inheritance taxes.
100% tax above a certain level.  Not the same thing as a 100% tax.  Estate taxes have brackets, just like income taxes, and I wasn't proposing changing that, just changing the brackets.  Say, maybe 0% for the first 10k, and then increasingly progressive amounts up to 100% after 5 million, or something like that.

The concept remains the same.  Policies and decision making by businesses and individuals would change as the brackets increase, and change drastically as it approaches 100%.  To do anything else would be foolish, and businesses and wealthy individuals are generally not foolish with money.

When business owners know they are taking 100% of the risk of loss with their business, and that that a huge percentage of their business will be taken from them upon death, they will not risk their own capital to expand that business. 
What evidence is there that people actually behave this way in the real world?  Why would the ability to make lots of money here in the real world, while they are alive, stop being an incentive?  Do people generally make their life decisions primarily based on what will happen after they die?  Why do people who don't have kids build wealth or invest at all, if giving money to kids is the only reason for building wealth?  Why do some wealthy people give their money to charity and teach their kids to make their own way in life?

There is always a risk vs. reward decision when making an investment.  In any business or other equity type investment, the investor is taking on 100% risk of loss (let's leave out "too big to fail" which I think was a travesty, but doesn't apply in 99% of cases anyway).  They weigh the expected return against the risk of loss.  If you cap the reward by pushing taxation towards 100%, there will always be somebody who was on the edge, who would have invested but just barely, who would now say nope, not worth the risk.  At 100% taxation, that becomes "Huh?  What reward? I'd have to be an idiot to take any risk or put any work into something with no reward."

People who don't own businesses will look at that situation and be less likely to start new businesses.  Therefore, existing businesses will grow more slowly, and not create as many jobs, and there will be less new businesses, thus creating even fewer new jobs.
As I said before, this country had at one time a 77% top estate tax and 94% income tax.  The economy didn't shut down.  I don't understand why this fact alone isn't enough to invalidate these sort of claims.
Also: businesses don't create jobs.  That's just something that republican politicians made up recently to try to get the middle class to support tax breaks for the rich (see: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2012/06/poor-person-never-gave-me-job.html )

I read your page.  I disagree with you.  First off, a poor or middle class person can start a business--most small businesses bootstrapped their way to success, and as you've stated, a lot of jobs come from small business.  Even a business can be barely profitable but still be adding and creating jobs.  Of course businesses create jobs, show me the jobs that aren't part of a business.  Your argument is that jobs are demand-driven by consumers, but that's only part of the equation.  You still have the risk vs. reward decision as described above.  Business in a free market is competitive.  If the demand for your product is so strong that it's a no-risk easy decision to expand, if there is a large and sure profit, competitors will rush in to compete with you for it--driving profits down, towards the point where that risk vs. reward decision becomes a lot harder.  When you mess with the reward side, you will drive down business expansion and creation, and therefore drive down both production and job creation.

Regarding your "fact" about 94% tax rates not shutting down the economy, I think it's hard to say how things would have been different with lower tax rates.  Tax rates are of course not the only variable either--the period you're describing is when the economy was rocketing back out of the Great Depression, and includes the effects of WWII.  It's quite feasible that economic growth, job creation, overall production, innovation, improvements in real wages, etc. may have all been faster with lower taxation.

Investments in improved machinery, factories, technology, etc. will slow.
Good.  We produce and consume way too much crap in this country.

I'm with you on overconsumption.  However, as MMM has said, it's amazing that we can live SO CHEAPLY in this country, with so much abundance.  That is a direct result of innovation that allows businesses to produce what people need (and want) for so much less now vs. the past.  I'm thankful that such thrifty abundance is a possibility.  One of the core concepts in the Hazlitt book is that more and cheaper production means cheaper real prices and more real abundance for consumers.  That doesn't mean you *need* to overconsume--it means that you can have better products and services for less real work required.

  In the long run, this prevents consumers from getting better and cheaper products and services, thus keeping real wages down.
Improved machinery and technology actually keeps wages down, by increasing unemployment via increased production per worker in a system where a company has the option to lay off workers based on no longer needing them, and keep the resulting increased profit.

I'd really encourage you to read the Economics in One Easy Lesson book.  There is a chapter that specifically refutes this fallacy (Chapter VII - The Curse of Machines).  I suppose I could try to summarize it here as I did the other chapter, but Hazlitt is really a much better writer than I am, and the chapter is quite short--only 15 pages.

The same would be true at the personal level for non-business owners.  If all of their income is going to be taken from them upon death, instead of them being able to give it as they choose to their own families, friends, charitable causes, etc., why should they work even one bit beyond what they need to cover their own spending?
Isn't that kind of the whole point of Mustachianism?  Why should anyone have to work more than they actually need to?  One of the ideas that was mentioned in terms of being FI without being evil is that what we want for ourselves we should make available to everyone.  The natural consequence of that would be the economy would expand more slowly.  But that would be ok, because we wouldn't need as much total wealth if we weren't wasting so much of it on stupid crap.  At the same time, we would slow the rate at which we are using non-renewable natural resources.  Win-win.

I'm not arguing that you *have* to work any particular amount.  However, I would argue that you should have the freedom to work as much and as long as you want to, and that you should be able to choose how the value created by your own work is directed--whether to yourself, your kids, your friends, your favorite charities, whatever.  Hazlitt would argue that the slowdown you're describing would make the quality of life for everyone worse--everything would cost more in real terms/real wages would be lower/more work would be *required* to buy what you need and want (all three are really the same thing). 

Of course, there are also a lot of "needs" today that never existed even as a "want" 50 or 100 or 200 years ago.  I saw a cabin on a recent trip that was a single room maybe 15' x 30' with a loft, and it was described as a typical rural Illinois home from the 1800s, and it had been used to raise two different families with 5+ children.  Heat was provided by the wood fireplace, and the home had survived multiple chimney fires.  I suppose I could live that way, but I am glad I don't have to.

Bakari

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2012, 08:59:27 PM »
Regarding your "fact" about 94% tax rates not shutting down the economy, I think it's hard to say how things would have been different with lower tax rates.  Tax rates are of course not the only variable either--the period you're describing is when the economy was rocketing back out of the Great Depression, and includes the effects of WWII.  It's quite feasible that economic growth, job creation, overall production, innovation, improvements in real wages, etc. may have all been faster with lower taxation.
Yes, it is hard to say what things would hypothetically have been like.  Yes, the real world is very complex.  But that is the only example we have.  Everything else is purely theory and speculation.  Last year we had no estate tax, we have had some of the lowest top tax brackets in US history for the past decade, and the tax on stock investing is half that rate - yet during that time we went through the worse recession since the Great Depression, and have had double digit unemployment.

Further, the last several decades have shown us that economic growth is not always coupled with job creation or improvements in real wages.  GDP has gone up substantially, yet inflation adjusted median income has not.  The real wages of the working and middle class have been basically stagnant.  So its hard to see why so many people still believe that economic growth is inherently good for everyone.
Its basically the old "trickle down" theory - let the rich get super rich, and this will make everyone a little bit rich.

But since the real world is complex, lets give the theory the benefit of the doubt, and say that allowing unrestricted concentration of unearned wealth benefits society as a whole.

Your same arguments about encouraging people to make longer term risks and investments could apply in a similar way to a Monarchy.  If the king knows that he will not only keep his position for a lifetime, but also pass it down to his son, he has much more incentive to think long-term - as opposed to just the next election cycle.  He wants to make sure his country stays stable, safe, and provides well enough for the people that they don't revolt.
Therefore, we should give up on democracy, and just trust that the Emperor of the United States will do what is best for the country, since it is in his own best interest to.
OR
We could accept the trade off of short sighted politicians for the greater good of a democracy.

Even if lower estate taxes did provide some small benefit to the economy, is it worth the trade-off of creating an aristocratic class, destroying the potential for meritocracy, having to tax actual productive labor at a higher rate, and ensuring that every citizen has an equal shot at success if they work hard?

Quote
I'm with you on overconsumption.  However, as MMM has said, it's amazing that we can live SO CHEAPLY in this country, with so much abundance.  That is a direct result of innovation that allows businesses to produce what people need (and want) for so much less now vs. the past.  I'm thankful that such thrifty abundance is a possibility.  One of the core concepts in the Hazlitt book is that more and cheaper production means cheaper real prices and more real abundance for consumers.  That doesn't mean you *need* to overconsume--it means that you can have better products and services for less real work required.
It should mean that.  It certainly could.  And yet, despite the increase in productivity per worker, real income has barely changed, and we still have a 40 hour work week.  Where is all that extra money going?  Its going to the top 0.1%, and the reason it is going there is because so many American citizens have bought into all the stuff they (and the politicians they purchase) have claimed.  The sort of stuff you are repeating here.


Quote
Hazlitt would argue that the slowdown you're describing would make the quality of life for everyone worse--everything would cost more in real terms/real wages would be lower/more work would be *required* to buy what you need and want (all three are really the same thing). 
That's what the factory owners and others of the investor class said when some crazy radicals wanted to lower the standard work week from 80-100 hours to only 40 hours(!) said too.
It didn't happen.

darkelenchus

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Re: Pursuing and Maintaining A Responsible Early Retirement
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2012, 09:08:01 AM »
As I said, human nature is pretty much the same across racial, ethnic, and cultural boundaries, however much you'd like to think otherwise.

Human nature is a set of actual and potential dispositions, some virtuous and others vicious, and still others benign. Rape, murder, and pillage are present in every observed culture, as are are altruistic behavior, expectations of honesty, notions of fairness, equality, justice, and prohibitions against rape, murder, and pillage. Vicious dispositions don't discount or eliminate the possibility of cultivating the virtuous ones, and vice versa. None of this makes impossible the cultivation and/or promotion of virtuous dispositions while pursuing or maintaining FI. If there is viciousness (whether passive or active) in pursuing or maintaining FI, it's due to circumstance, not nature.