Author Topic: Property tax complaints  (Read 14554 times)

theninthwall

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Property tax complaints
« on: August 23, 2023, 02:56:47 PM »
So, my local Facebook group is filled with people complaining about property tax increases.

I'll immediately state my bias as a long-term renter (by choice), who missed out on the doubling and tripling of home values in the area. There are a whole lot of people in our area who have a net worth hundreds of thousands of dollars higher than they did just three years ago.

In my view, the people with property tax increases have enjoyed large gains in their property value. If they can't afford the property taxes, they should move to somewhere more affordable. In my area, new buyers are hit with much higher property taxes, as long-term owners are somehow already protected from larger increases (I'm not sure exactly how it works). But needless to say, some beachfront properties are being taxed less than cheaper properties elsewhere, which doesn't seem fair. Not to mention, the city is not immune from rising costs and I'm sure operating all the services it does costs far more than it did three years ago.

Do I have the right take on this, or should I be feeling more sympathy? I just feel like homeowners are a very protected species sometimes (again, it's probably my bias coming through).

seattlecyclone

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2023, 03:28:57 PM »
Nah, I think you're correct. The fact that your million-dollar home was worth only a hundred thousand when you bought it 40 years ago shouldn't entitle you to pay less tax than your neighbor who bought an identical house last year. Prop 13 in California does exactly this, and I think it's but one of the many ill-advised policies they have that make housing there unnecessarily expensive for anyone who isn't already a long-time homeowner.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2023, 03:41:43 PM »
I just feel like homeowners are a very protected species sometimes
Yes, they are a protected species, and here's why.


https://themreport.com/news/data/11-08-2022/voter-turnout-gap

GilesMM

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2023, 05:15:14 PM »
You should feel sympathy as the increase in net worth is not a liquid one while the property taxes are due immediately.  Asking someone to sell or borrow against their home to pay property taxes is part of the reason Calif enacted Prop 13. Does you area not limit the annual increase on property taxes?

Ron Scott

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2023, 05:30:39 PM »
You don’t need to sympathize but its usually not a great idea for those in the room who don’t pay tax to complain that those who do don’t pay enough. Just sayin’.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2023, 05:53:35 PM »
You should feel sympathy as the increase in net worth is not a liquid one while the property taxes are due immediately.  Asking someone to sell or borrow against their home to pay property taxes is part of the reason Calif enacted Prop 13.

Yes this was a big part of the reason, and it's still a dumb policy. If your home has appreciated by hundreds of thousands of dollars, you likely have the ability to tap into this wealth in the form of a home equity loan. Those who refuse to consider this as an option are trying to have it both ways: take 100% of the benefit of an appreciated asset for themselves, while accepting none of the taxation that normally goes along with that level of property ownership.

Here in Washington those homeowners with incomes low enough for property taxes to perhaps be an actual hardship have the option of deferring half of their property tax until the time their property is sold. A very fair interest rate is charged on the deferred tax in the meantime. Seems like a much better policy to me than just giving a blanket write-off to all long-time homeowners without regard to their financial situation.

Quote
Does you area not limit the annual increase on property taxes?
On any individual property? No, not to my knowledge. There are limitations on how much money the county can raise in total from property taxes without a public vote. On an average property the year-over-year increase should therefore be pretty small, but if your property appreciates much more than average for some reason you could see a bigger increase.

You don’t need to sympathize but its usually not a great idea for those in the room who don’t pay tax to complain that those who do don’t pay enough. Just sayin’.

Renters are perfectly entitled to have an opinion on property tax policy, as the price of this tax is baked into the rent they pay. That premise is flawed anyway. You shouldn't need to be a billionaire to support a wealth tax or a corporation to support a corporate tax.

Sibley

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2023, 07:43:12 PM »
There are sometimes specific things about how property taxes are done that are causing increases. An example:

In Illinois (at least the suburbs around Chicago), the school districts are not consolidated. So you can have 1 town that has 3 or more school districts. There are entire school districts that are ONE school. One small school. But each district still has overhead - superintendents, administrative staff, etc. Massive amounts of duplication. And this results in higher property taxes. The solution is both simple and very difficult: merge districts. Plenty of other states have one school district which covers K-12, Illinois is fully capable of doing the same.

So, if you live in Illinois, it's perfectly valid for you to want all these school districts to start merging to reduce the overhead costs.

That said, my local facebook group is also prone to the property tax moaning. The lack of understanding of cause and effect is amusing, and terrifying.

Ron Scott

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2023, 10:01:39 PM »
[
You don’t need to sympathize but its usually not a great idea for those in the room who don’t pay tax to complain that those who do don’t pay enough. Just sayin’.
. You shouldn't need to be a billionaire to support a wealth tax or a corporation to support a corporate tax.
Yeah, but we’re not talking about billionaires or corporations, are we?

Let’s go back to the quote that started this thread:

In my view, the people with property tax increases have enjoyed large gains in their property value. If they can't afford the property taxes, they should move to somewhere more affordable.

No attacks on billionaires or corporations here. We’re talking about Joe Homeowner, whose largest budget item is tax. Joe Homeowner is being told, if you don’t like it leave. So let’s deal with the actual post and not cloud the issue with extremes.

To people who are paying the taxes I have two words: thank you.

GilesMM

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2023, 10:12:06 PM »
You should feel sympathy as the increase in net worth is not a liquid one while the property taxes are due immediately.  Asking someone to sell or borrow against their home to pay property taxes is part of the reason Calif enacted Prop 13.

Yes this was a big part of the reason, and it's still a dumb policy. If your home has appreciated by hundreds of thousands of dollars, you likely have the ability to tap into this wealth in the form of a home equity loan. Those who refuse to consider this as an option are trying to have it both ways: take 100% of the benefit of an appreciated asset for themselves, while accepting none of the taxation that normally goes along with that level of property ownership.

Here in Washington those homeowners with incomes low enough for property taxes to perhaps be an actual hardship have the option of deferring half of their property tax until the time their property is sold. A very fair interest rate is charged on the deferred tax in the meantime. Seems like a much better policy to me than just giving a blanket write-off to all long-time homeowners without regard to their financial situation.

Quote
Does you area not limit the annual increase on property taxes?
On any individual property? No, not to my knowledge. There are limitations on how much money the county can raise in total from property taxes without a public vote. On an average property the year-over-year increase should therefore be pretty small, but if your property appreciates much more than average for some reason you could see a bigger increase.

You don’t need to sympathize but its usually not a great idea for those in the room who don’t pay tax to complain that those who do don’t pay enough. Just sayin’.

Renters are perfectly entitled to have an opinion on property tax policy, as the price of this tax is baked into the rent they pay. That premise is flawed anyway. You shouldn't need to be a billionaire to support a wealth tax or a corporation to support a corporate tax.


Have you seen HELOC rates recently???

seattlecyclone

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2023, 12:21:50 AM »
No attacks on billionaires or corporations here. We’re talking about Joe Homeowner, whose largest budget item is tax. Joe Homeowner is being told, if you don’t like it leave.

Does that not apply to all taxes anywhere? If you don't like how high the income taxes are in your jurisdiction, well...two main ways to pay less: either earn less, or move somewhere with lower taxes. If you don't like how high the sales taxes are, you can buy less, or you can move somewhere with lower taxes. Finally, if you don't like how high the property taxes are, you can own less property or you can move somewhere with lower taxes.

Have you seen HELOC rates recently???

I'm sure they've gone up in lockstep with all the other interest rates in our economy. Hell, Vanguard's money market fund is yielding 5.27% these days. Let's consider the stereotypical "house poor" person who is usually used as a poster child for Prop 13: lower income, retired, little wealth other than a paid-off house that has grown to $1 million in value over the past 30+ years since they bought in. If they sell that house and put the money in a safe money market fund, they'll collect $4,392/month in interest. They should be able to rent a pretty nice place for that much, and the amount they'll no longer be paying in property tax, homeowners' insurance, and maintenance can go straight to the bank.

Remember still that property tax for homeowners tends to be a relatively lower portion of one's budget than rent is for non-homeowners. Example: in my first full year of homeownership (2011) the property tax was $3,179, or $265/month. The property tax for that same house 12 years later, at a 2.5x higher assessed value, has gone up to a whopping $555/month. That's a $290/month increase over a 12-year period for someone who would stay put in an owned home. Meanwhile the place I rented before buying that house (a newer three-bedroom townhome) went for $2,100 then, and a similar home in the same neighborhood is currently on the market for $3,595/month. That's a $1,495/month increase for the non-homeowner, compared to $290/month increase for a homeowner. Do you also support rent control?

Ron Scott

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2023, 04:38:54 AM »
No attacks on billionaires or corporations here. We’re talking about Joe Homeowner, whose largest budget item is tax. Joe Homeowner is being told, if you don’t like it leave.

Does that not apply to all taxes anywhere? If you don't like how high the income taxes are in your jurisdiction, well...two main ways to pay less: either earn less, or move somewhere with lower taxes.

Quick primer: property tax is usually based on assessed value not owner income, and with some exceptions income tax varies by state.

Also there are other ways to deal with high property taxes than running away. In many jurisdictions you can grieve your assessment or sue the taxing authority. I have and it works.  And you can try to lower your taxes through the political process.

Finally, just get used to it: people who pay high taxes in America bitch about it. It’s part of the political process and elections are won and lost on this issue all the time.

If you don’t like people bitching about taxes maybe America isn’t the place for you. You can always  leave…


jim555

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2023, 04:55:06 AM »
They did a county reassessment and mine doubled.  Turns out everyone's doubled so I didn't see much of a change.

Siebrie

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2023, 05:00:06 AM »
Off on a tangent: Belgian property taxes are based on the annual net rental income the property would have raised in 1975. I pay €50/year for a 4-bed semi-detached next to Brussels :D

ATtiny85

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2023, 06:14:42 AM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454% per $10. So our effective tax rate is just about 2% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 0.5% or something closer to that.

It is what it is. It's a budget item as noted. I do raise an eyebrow when I see a ribbon cutting for a high school stadium that cost $23 million, when the overall school budget is $126 million (schools get 17.856% of my taxes). Especially when the superintendent justifies it with "other districts have such nice facilities". But, until I get involved and try to change things, a simple eyebrow raise is all I am allowed to do.

edited because I forgot the whole millis factor that is used, as pointed out below when dandarc took pity on me. Sorry for the confusion!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 12:41:36 PM by ATtiny85 »

midweststache

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2023, 07:24:07 AM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.

It is what it is. It's a budget item as noted. I do raise an eyebrow when I see a ribbon cutting for a high school stadium that cost $23 million, when the overall school budget is $126 million (schools get 17.856% of my taxes). Especially when the superintendent justifies it with "other districts have such nice facilities". But, until I get involved and try to change things, a simple eyebrow raise is all I am allowed to do.

Sounds like exactly my situation. I think my sister and BIL pay annually what we pay in two months, living in a home in a neighboring state. But we have excellent, nationally-recognized public schools, incredible libraries, a thriving public parks system including a host of public programs and activities, infrastructure investment (though it's made my commuting in town this summer a PAIN due to construction & upgrades), and a host of resources for my (sub)urban community that I don't use but pay for. My sister's community has OK schools but that's about it.

Our taxes did double this year (property is assessed in our county every 3 years), but we contested it because our neighbors' taxes of similarly-sized homes did not, and were able to recoup a significant chunk of the increase. Had everyone's property taxes gone up, we would've thrown less of a fit.

I have a lot of sympathy for folks who are house poor and get whacked with a property tax hike. We planned for property tax increases, and have the budget to allow for it, but not everyone is as fiscally savvy as we Mustachians (accounting for property taxes, home insurance, maintenance, etc. ahead a of a home purchase) and this is a rough lesson to learn. So yes, I'm happy to raise property taxes to pay for common good (I said that to my conservative dad, who gasped and said "blasphemy!" - family time is fun, isn't it?), but yes, I'm also willing to extend empathy to people who struggle from those hikes.

GilesMM

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2023, 07:33:49 AM »
No attacks on billionaires or corporations here. We’re talking about Joe Homeowner, whose largest budget item is tax. Joe Homeowner is being told, if you don’t like it leave.

Does that not apply to all taxes anywhere? If you don't like how high the income taxes are in your jurisdiction, well...two main ways to pay less: either earn less, or move somewhere with lower taxes. If you don't like how high the sales taxes are, you can buy less, or you can move somewhere with lower taxes. Finally, if you don't like how high the property taxes are, you can own less property or you can move somewhere with lower taxes.

Have you seen HELOC rates recently???

I'm sure they've gone up in lockstep with all the other interest rates in our economy. Hell, Vanguard's money market fund is yielding 5.27% these days. Let's consider the stereotypical "house poor" person who is usually used as a poster child for Prop 13: lower income, retired, little wealth other than a paid-off house that has grown to $1 million in value over the past 30+ years since they bought in. If they sell that house and put the money in a safe money market fund, they'll collect $4,392/month in interest. They should be able to rent a pretty nice place for that much, and the amount they'll no longer be paying in property tax, homeowners' insurance, and maintenance can go straight to the bank.
...


And in a few years when rates fall back to earth, they will be out of the street without enough money for rent?  You people seriously are in favor of retired people losing their homes over property taxes?

GilesMM

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2023, 07:43:13 AM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

JLee

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2023, 08:51:03 AM »
No attacks on billionaires or corporations here. We’re talking about Joe Homeowner, whose largest budget item is tax. Joe Homeowner is being told, if you don’t like it leave.

Does that not apply to all taxes anywhere? If you don't like how high the income taxes are in your jurisdiction, well...two main ways to pay less: either earn less, or move somewhere with lower taxes.

Quick primer: property tax is usually based on assessed value not owner income, and with some exceptions income tax varies by state.

Also there are other ways to deal with high property taxes than running away. In many jurisdictions you can grieve your assessment or sue the taxing authority. I have and it works.  And you can try to lower your taxes through the political process.

Finally, just get used to it: people who pay high taxes in America bitch about it. It’s part of the political process and elections are won and lost on this issue all the time.

If you don’t like people bitching about taxes maybe America isn’t the place for you. You can always  leave…

You still have to file taxes on any US income (you do have a 401k, right?), nevermind the $2350 fee to leave - alternatively, pay a 23.8% capital gains tax on everything to get out.

Anecdotally, "you can always leave" seems to be a silly statement made by people who don't want to talk about problems.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 08:58:24 AM by JLee »

sonofsven

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2023, 09:52:34 AM »
I do have a little sympathy for elderly folks that are on a fixed income via a pension and/or ss that are struggling to keep up with property tax increases.
But they do have the option of selling and renting.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2023, 11:13:42 AM »
And in a few years when rates fall back to earth, they will be out of the street without enough money for rent?  You people seriously are in favor of retired people losing their homes over property taxes?

The last several years with near-zero interest rates were historically unprecedented. Today's rates are more normal really. But yeah, if interest rates go down toward zero this person will have to (*gasp*) dip into their million dollar principal to pay their rent. Should be enough to last for the rest of any senior citizen's lifetime. And that's if they keep the whole thing in cash.

And no, I'm not in favor of retired people losing their homes over property taxes. I already mentioned the programs we have in Washington to prevent this. The key difference from California is in Washington these programs are narrowly targeted at folks whose income is on the low side, folks who might reasonably be expected to have a hard time paying their tax. It's not a blanket giveaway to everyone rich or poor who has lived in the state for a while, at the expense of those who have come in more recently and almost certainly have much higher housing expenses even before they're required to pay half of their neighbor's tax.

bacchi

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2023, 11:28:22 AM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

To emphasize what you wrote, I have no idea what @ATtiny85 wrote. Rollback? Value on the rollback? And 20% of assessed value? Whaaaat?





DeniseNJ

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2023, 11:32:40 AM »
This sounds a lot like getting taxed on the increased value of stocks before you even sell them.  Just bc your stocks have gone up in value does not mean that you have more money.  They could drop too.  Just bc your house has gone up in value does not mean that you have more money.  Even if you budget for tax increases you may not have foreseen your house being worth two or three times more in just a few years.  You could take a heloc but you're borrowing real money almost against imagined gains.  The house value may go back down, and even if your taxes went down (not likely), you'd have paid taxes on a house that never actually changed in value.  I know that property taxes are different than income taxes and that $250K of increased value is tax free, but oddly, when you sell is when you actually have the money.  (I realize that stocks are more volatile but they are also easier to sell than your house.)

And really, if you don't like it move is not very useful.  It costs money to move too.  Do you pull your kids up out of school and upend your life and commute bc your house went up in value and now you can't afford to live there?  But if you sell you're flush with cash and now you can afford to live there.  It's kind of backwards.

New ppl pay more in prop taxes bc until the house is actually sold, its value is theoretical.  It's only when someone actually puts money down that its value is no longer an estimate but an actual number so the assessment is most accurate.  That's why the assessment doesn't change much while you own the house.  Property taxes go up based on how much it costs to run a town, not based on how much your house has increased in theoretical value.  Reassessments should be rare, and taxes usually rise a percentage for the entire town.

jim555

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2023, 11:47:10 AM »
In my area if you turn 65 you get a cut, if you are under $50K income and over 65 you get another cut, like 50% off some section of the taxes.  People who live in their own house get a break, if you rent it out you lose that break.

therethere

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2023, 11:56:36 AM »
As a renter, who can't buy because property values have exploded. I currently have zero sympathy for those complaining about increased property taxes. Renters are being told to accept the increases or move to a lower cost of living place. Or to cut back on discretionary spending in other areas to afford rent increases. Homeowner's should take the same advice. Take a HELOC out and pay it if you really need to and draw down on your gains. And if you're complaining about the rates on HELOCs, what about the rates on new mortgages? Reducing property taxes is just widening the gap on the already uneven playing field. Your place has doubled in value, and your payment was likely cut a lot if you refinanced in 21/22. You're holding something of extreme value keeping it unavailable for others, driving up the prices of all housing stock. In these times it makes no sense to pay property taxes on what you bought it for years ago. If that's your argument, why can't I pay rent based on the value of what you bought it years ago?

I do agree with some type of relief for elderly/disabled veterans. But that's about it.

The argument of paying tax before realizing gains is also kind of flawed in my opinion. Because when you sell there is quite a large amount of gains that are tax free.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 12:05:26 PM by therethere »

ATtiny85

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2023, 12:09:23 PM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

To emphasize what you wrote, I have no idea what @ATtiny85 wrote. Rollback? Value on the rollback? And 20% of assessed value? Whaaaat?

Iowa uses something they call "rollback". It is done to make sure increases are done somewhat equally, not allowing more than a 3% difference or something. So we all have what amounts to a discount factor that is applied to our assessed value. Right now that is 55%. So if a house (and land) is assessed at $727,272, the amount subject to tax is the assessed value times the rollback factor, so $400,000 in my made up example. As far as i know, the entire state uses the same factors. I looked at the history from 1999 - 2020 and the residential factor has varied from 56% down to 44% (GFC time). Ag started the century at 100%, then dipped to 43% coming off the 2012 farming boom around here, now back to 84%.

My city website also has a spreadsheet one can download to see the exact figures of how the prop tax is cut up. That's where all the decimal points in my post came from.

So, I pay 20% of the assessed value: (actual assessed value) x (rollback factor) x (tax rate) = (assessed value) x 0.55 v 0.37 = 20% x (assessed value). I do get to take off the $180 homestead credit.

So here in my corner of Iowa, things are very transparent. At least I can see the calculations. I have not dug deeper into the formula for the rollback, I just hold my nose and tell my bank to send the check twice a year.


As pointed out, my math on this hot sticky summer day was off by a factor of 10.

It ends up at 2% due to the "mills' factor. Thank dandarc!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 12:38:10 PM by ATtiny85 »

jim555

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2023, 12:15:33 PM »
In the UK they don't have a property tax, they have a head tax (council tax) based on where you live.  So renters pay the tax, not the owners if the owner doesn't live on the property.

schoopsthecat

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2023, 12:18:32 PM »
I love that on a MMM forum, the majority in this thread are advocating that retired people living on a very low income should be forced to sell or mortgage their houses.  If you retire early with plans to live a spartan lifestyle, and your house happens to increase in value clearly you should be forced to sell to a wealthy investor and move into a van down by the river.

dandarc

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2023, 12:21:42 PM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

To emphasize what you wrote, I have no idea what @ATtiny85 wrote. Rollback? Value on the rollback? And 20% of assessed value? Whaaaat?

Iowa uses something they call "rollback". It is done to make sure increases are done somewhat equally, not allowing more than a 3% difference or something. So we all have what amounts to a discount factor that is applied to our assessed value. Right now that is 55%. So if a house (and land) is assessed at $727,272, the amount subject to tax is the assessed value times the rollback factor, so $400,000 in my made up example. As far as i know, the entire state uses the same factors. I looked at the history from 1999 - 2020 and the residential factor has varied from 56% down to 44% (GFC time). Ag started the century at 100%, then dipped to 43% coming off the 2012 farming boom around here, now back to 84%.

My city website also has a spreadsheet one can download to see the exact figures of how the prop tax is cut up. That's where all the decimal points in my post came from.

So, I pay 20% of the assessed value: (actual assessed value) x (rollback factor) x (tax rate) = (assessed value) x 0.55 v 0.37 = 20% x (assessed value). I do get to take off the $180 homestead credit.

So here in my corner of Iowa, things are very transparent. At least I can see the calculations. I have not dug deeper into the formula for the rollback, I just hold my nose and tell my bank to send the check twice a year.
That cannot be right - a 20% tax rate? $20,000 per year on a $100,000 assessed home? Or are you paying 20 mills (per thousand dollars) - $2,000 / year taxes on that $100K home?

ATtiny85

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2023, 12:36:17 PM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

To emphasize what you wrote, I have no idea what @ATtiny85 wrote. Rollback? Value on the rollback? And 20% of assessed value? Whaaaat?

Iowa uses something they call "rollback". It is done to make sure increases are done somewhat equally, not allowing more than a 3% difference or something. So we all have what amounts to a discount factor that is applied to our assessed value. Right now that is 55%. So if a house (and land) is assessed at $727,272, the amount subject to tax is the assessed value times the rollback factor, so $400,000 in my made up example. As far as i know, the entire state uses the same factors. I looked at the history from 1999 - 2020 and the residential factor has varied from 56% down to 44% (GFC time). Ag started the century at 100%, then dipped to 43% coming off the 2012 farming boom around here, now back to 84%.

My city website also has a spreadsheet one can download to see the exact figures of how the prop tax is cut up. That's where all the decimal points in my post came from.

So, I pay 20% of the assessed value: (actual assessed value) x (rollback factor) x (tax rate) = (assessed value) x 0.55 v 0.37 = 20% x (assessed value). I do get to take off the $180 homestead credit.

So here in my corner of Iowa, things are very transparent. At least I can see the calculations. I have not dug deeper into the formula for the rollback, I just hold my nose and tell my bank to send the check twice a year.
That cannot be right - a 20% tax rate? $20,000 per year on a $100,000 assessed home? Or are you paying 20 mills (per thousand dollars) - $2,000 / year taxes on that $100K home?

oh geez...nothing like being off a decimal point to really be confusing.

Yes yes yes, so sorry. I should slow down when doing this really really hard math.


moof

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2023, 12:42:03 PM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

https://www.oregon.gov/DOR/programs/gov-research/Documents/303-405-1.pdf
Oregon does have a similar, but less extreme property tax protection called measure 5 and 50.  Your assessed value limited to the lesser of the 1995 valuation (or original valuation if newer) plus at most 3% per year, or the current fair market value.  The throttling follows the house, not the buyer, and is overall a lot more fair way to limit sudden jumps in property taxes.  Of course if new levies are passed, you can end up with more than a 3% jump per year of the actual payment.

While people like to whine about taxes, property taxes usually have a way to be deferred in dire circumstances.  Your heirs might not like it, but you can have the taxes paid out of the eventual sale if you go through the right hoops to have them deferred.

Oregon's system is not perfect, but it creates a lot less insane situations than Prop 13 has.  Newer houses get dinged simply for being newer, which still rubs me the wrong way from a fairness perspective.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 12:53:44 PM by moof »

dandarc

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2023, 12:50:21 PM »
I am in a fairly high property tax jurisdiction. They do a "rollback" to keep things somewhat even. For 2021 the rollback for my area was to 55.0743%. So that first step feels OK. But then that value is taxed at 36.95454%. So our effective tax rate is just about 20% of our assessed value. I have compared to some family members in other midwest states and they pay an effective rate of 5% or something closer to that.
...


I sometimes feel like there isn't enough transparency on rates to enable people who can easily relocate make smart choices on where to live.  We live in Oregon, which has nothing like the Calif Prop 13 rules, but our rate is about 0.5% of assessed value and close to 0.3% of actual value.  With some exemptions for farmland and forest, we are paying less than the previous owner was paying more than ten years ago.  So, rates can be low and assessment/rates can be lowered.  We feel our area is well funded with regard to government services.  (Oregon also has no sales taxes so our overall tax exposure is pretty different to what we had seen in CA, TX and IL.)

To emphasize what you wrote, I have no idea what @ATtiny85 wrote. Rollback? Value on the rollback? And 20% of assessed value? Whaaaat?

Iowa uses something they call "rollback". It is done to make sure increases are done somewhat equally, not allowing more than a 3% difference or something. So we all have what amounts to a discount factor that is applied to our assessed value. Right now that is 55%. So if a house (and land) is assessed at $727,272, the amount subject to tax is the assessed value times the rollback factor, so $400,000 in my made up example. As far as i know, the entire state uses the same factors. I looked at the history from 1999 - 2020 and the residential factor has varied from 56% down to 44% (GFC time). Ag started the century at 100%, then dipped to 43% coming off the 2012 farming boom around here, now back to 84%.

My city website also has a spreadsheet one can download to see the exact figures of how the prop tax is cut up. That's where all the decimal points in my post came from.

So, I pay 20% of the assessed value: (actual assessed value) x (rollback factor) x (tax rate) = (assessed value) x 0.55 v 0.37 = 20% x (assessed value). I do get to take off the $180 homestead credit.

So here in my corner of Iowa, things are very transparent. At least I can see the calculations. I have not dug deeper into the formula for the rollback, I just hold my nose and tell my bank to send the check twice a year.
That cannot be right - a 20% tax rate? $20,000 per year on a $100,000 assessed home? Or are you paying 20 mills (per thousand dollars) - $2,000 / year taxes on that $100K home?

oh geez...nothing like being off a decimal point to really be confusing.

Yes yes yes, so sorry. I should slow down when doing this really really hard math.
What's an order of magnitude between friends?

JLee

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2023, 01:06:20 PM »
As a renter, who can't buy because property values have exploded. I currently have zero sympathy for those complaining about increased property taxes. Renters are being told to accept the increases or move to a lower cost of living place. Or to cut back on discretionary spending in other areas to afford rent increases. Homeowner's should take the same advice. Take a HELOC out and pay it if you really need to and draw down on your gains. And if you're complaining about the rates on HELOCs, what about the rates on new mortgages? Reducing property taxes is just widening the gap on the already uneven playing field. Your place has doubled in value, and your payment was likely cut a lot if you refinanced in 21/22. You're holding something of extreme value keeping it unavailable for others, driving up the prices of all housing stock. In these times it makes no sense to pay property taxes on what you bought it for years ago. If that's your argument, why can't I pay rent based on the value of what you bought it years ago?

I do agree with some type of relief for elderly/disabled veterans. But that's about it.

The argument of paying tax before realizing gains is also kind of flawed in my opinion. Because when you sell there is quite a large amount of gains that are tax free.

We should all sell our houses and go live on the street so we free up housing stock!

Log

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2023, 01:52:52 PM »
...
And no, I'm not in favor of retired people losing their homes over property taxes. I already mentioned the programs we have in Washington to prevent this. The key difference from California is in Washington these programs are narrowly targeted at folks whose income is on the low side, folks who might reasonably be expected to have a hard time paying their tax. It's not a blanket giveaway to everyone rich or poor who has lived in the state for a while, at the expense of those who have come in more recently and almost certainly have much higher housing expenses even before they're required to pay half of their neighbor's tax.

+1. Prop 13 is a horribly regressive policy that is bad for California and Californians. And with how big of a deal California's economy is for the whole US, it's a bad deal for the country as well. We should all be outraged about it. Prop 13 may solve the "little old lady forced out of her home" problem, but at ENORMOUS cost. There are less costly ways to solve the problem.

---

In an ideal world, we would tax land value instead of property value, and zoning would be much less restrictive. This would create more virtuous incentives for valuable land to be improved to its highest and best use, as opposed to the current property tax system which incentivizes hoarding under-developed land in high value locations.

A shortage of housing in economically high-value cities is knee-capping our economic growth by inhibiting people from moving for better jobs and more economic opportunity. Our current property tax system means that the owner of a surface parking lot or a run-down low-rise building can easily make their tax bill, while their use of the land is providing very little value and is actually imposing a massive opportunity cost on the public.

And that situation is even worse under the regime of prop 13 in California—if prop 13 were really about the little old ladies, why the hell is it subsidizing the tax bill of some land speculator who owns a bunch of parking lots on some of the most valuable land in the country?? What if every owner of a surface parking lot in Silicon Valley were taking a concrete hit to their wallet every year as the land values rose? At a certain point they would have to either develop, or sell, and that would be GOOD for the economy and the community.

If your tax bill has exploded because the underlying land value has increased, that's a signal that the land is too valuable to be squandered on a low-efficiency land use. Land is fundamentally one of the main public assets of a State. If a State is going to allow private property ownership, a land tax (or, in our imperfect world, property tax) is a sensible way of signaling that private ownership of land imposes a cost on society that needs to be paid for. The story of humanity is the story of technological innovations enabling us to overcome resource limitations, whether that's using a limited resource more efficiently, or discovering a way to use a new resource for the same use. Well, the technologies that allows us to use land more efficiently are taller and denser buildings. We have the solution, we just are so stupid that we made it illegal to use.

If your ownership of a large-lot single family home in a location with a lot of job opportunities is imposing too much cost on society, your property tax goes up. If you can't pay it, you probably shouldn't be forced to move... but you should probably be allowed to solve your own problem by building an ADU, remodeling your home into a duplex, or splitting your lot to sell the other half. Your new rental income should cover the tax and then some, or if you don't want to work of becoming a landlord, the lot split provides a windfall while also reducing your ongoing tax liability. So much of the property tax discourse is inflamed by the fact that these kinds of common-sense land uses are illegal in so much of the country.

Understanding all this really clarifies how much of the very worst dysfunction of California is directly tied up in Prop 13. Voting property owners were sheltered from the consequences of (and actually rewarded for!) their own worst policy decisions, because their taxes never go up to reflect that their land use policy has banned common sense. In places where land is not as valuable as California's, American-style sprawl can limp along and function okay, but as land becomes more valuable, you need to build up. On the upward trajectory of land values in places like Portland and Seattle, we've seen sensible infill reforms occur much earlier than in California. It's impossible to say for sure, but I'd expect that the lack of Prop 13 played a part. Rising property tax burdens probably led some voters, on the margin, to consider the idea that they could personally benefit from building an ADU or selling off a piece of that over-sized back yard.

/rant

wageslave23

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2023, 02:44:20 PM »
I guess sure don't complain about property taxes. But then you should also send the IRS a check for all your unrealized stock gains.

dandarc

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2023, 03:21:33 PM »
In Florida we have at least the assessment part very similar to how I understand Prop 13 works, but the cap is 3% per year vs. California's 2%. And yet I never hear anyone saying this is a problem - compounding at 3% vs. 2% makes that big a difference that the rhetoric is so much calmer? Millage rates, at least where I am, tend to run about 20 mills (2% of taxable value), but between the homestead exemptions and save our homes, it isn't uncommon for taxes paid to be under 1% of the assessed value (before save-our-homes reduces it). Granted to hit that right off the bat you kind of have to be in a fairly low-end home.

Suppose we just haven't sufficiently hit the intersection of demand and zoning coupled with the assessment caps, even in the big cities, to get to the point people are actually complaining loudly about it? Or maybe we need to realize part of complaints about rent is very directly tied to this - rental properties do not enjoy Save our homes & homestead exemptions so landlords feel the impact of assessment increases and surely pass that along (and probably then some) to tenants?

Or it might be the ~20 year head start California has on this vs. Florida's law.

therethere

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2023, 03:42:21 PM »
I guess sure don't complain about property taxes. But then you should also send the IRS a check for all your unrealized stock gains.

But 250-500k of capital gains on a house is tax free upon sale. Not to mention that capital gains tax on stock earnings goes to the IRS, while property taxes goes to the city/state for city or county services. I fail to see how this could be related at all.

ditheca

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2023, 04:03:21 PM »
Local home prices doubled in the last 5 years, and we're already paying double property taxes.

Why does my city need double the taxes? Inflation isn't 100%. They didn't double the salary of public servants or teachers. Where's all the money going?

slappy

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2023, 07:18:45 AM »
FWIW, most of the property tax complaints I am seeing are in conjunction with other increased cost of living. It's one thing for property taxes to go up. It's another thing for property taxes, food, gas, etc to all go up at once. Granted, costs of things go up over time, but having it all hit at once is a bit of a burden for the folks I am seeing complain.

I do see a lot of renters complain about rent going up as well. They don't seem to realize all the landlord expenses have gone up. Taxes, insurance, maintenance costs, etc.


By the River

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2023, 07:49:01 AM »
I protested my assessment this year mainly due to the discrepancy on the block.  My valuation increased 18% in one year (my friend across the street went up 35%).  The other similar sized houses on the block went up 2%, 6%, 7%, & 7%.  After the hearing, the increase was reduced to 10%. So that was worth the time.  If everyone had gone up around the same, I probably would have skipped the hearing. 

Also, there is a state law that allows homeowners 65+ with annual income <$100K to freeze the assessed value.  The income only has to be <$100k in the year that the freeze is requested and never verified again. 

coppertop

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2023, 08:18:39 AM »
I never thought I would see the day when folks on the MMM Forum would be advocating for retired people to take out HELOC.  As if it's just that easy.  Taking on debt in retirement.  And as an alternative, wanting to force older people to have to move away from the home where they have likely lived for years, have friends and relatives nearby, and have made it comfortable for themselves.  I am 67; DH and I moved to a different state in order to be near one of our adult children.  Let me tell you that this move has been quite difficult for us.  And expensive.  It's disheartening that the younger generations are so heartless when it comes to the needs of their elders.  Obviously the people saying "just sell and move" or "take on debt if you can't afford your property taxes" have plenty of income and can't relate to those who are now on a limited income.  SMH

Chris Pascale

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2023, 08:21:54 AM »
A quote that stuck with me from the early 2000's was something like: "Gas prices are really just keeping pace with everything else. But no one wants to hear that. Instead, they want to be congratulated for being a genius on their house purchase and complain about getting ripped off at the pump."

I had to fight my tax assessment. I bought the house in 2021 for $500,000 (the appraisal value) and they assessed it at $670,000. As the court date approached, they called to explain that I probably got a great deal on the house, then they offered a settlement of $560,000, and then we agreed on a tax value of $535,000.

GilesMM

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2023, 08:22:03 AM »
I never thought I would see the day when folks on the MMM Forum would be advocating for retired people to take out HELOC.  As if it's just that easy.  Taking on debt in retirement.  And as an alternative, wanting to force older people to have to move away from the home where they have likely lived for years, have friends and relatives nearby, and have made it comfortable for themselves.  I am 67; DH and I moved to a different state in order to be near one of our adult children.  Let me tell you that this move has been quite difficult for us.  And expensive.  It's disheartening that the younger generations are so heartless when it comes to the needs of their elders.  Obviously the people saying "just sell and move" or "take on debt if you can't afford your property taxes" have plenty of income and can't relate to those who are now on a limited income.  SMH

The same people can't figure out why California voters decided to change the rules with Prop 13.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2023, 08:34:45 AM »
I never thought I would see the day when folks on the MMM Forum would be advocating for retired people to take out HELOC.  As if it's just that easy.  Taking on debt in retirement.  And as an alternative, wanting to force older people to have to move away from the home where they have likely lived for years, have friends and relatives nearby, and have made it comfortable for themselves.  I am 67; DH and I moved to a different state in order to be near one of our adult children.  Let me tell you that this move has been quite difficult for us.  And expensive.  It's disheartening that the younger generations are so heartless when it comes to the needs of their elders.  Obviously the people saying "just sell and move" or "take on debt if you can't afford your property taxes" have plenty of income and can't relate to those who are now on a limited income.  SMH

You're making good points. Not everything is about money. Those same old people contributed to what was once a brand new community and made it as nice as it is. They paid their share, dedicated their lives, and did things we'll never quite know about to make it a desirable community.

Alternatively, in the community where I grew up, people bought homes for $5,000 (not many now since that's a 1950's price), and then worked in an economy that allowed them to retire with a salary of 10x that, and can now sell that house for $500,000. The money is there.

coppertop

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2023, 09:43:55 AM »
You do realize that if someone bought their house in the 1950s, they are now 90+ years old if even still alive? Also, please explain "the money is there." Where is "the money"? You mean the equity in the house? The equity that only equals cash if one sells or takes out a HELOC or mortgage on the home? If that is what you mean, where do these seniors get the cash to make the monthly payments on the loan? Not feasible for most of our elders. My stepmother,age 82, is now having to tap her available cash to pay for care for my father, now 92. Things aren't so simple as some are claiming it to be. Most elderly people are not millionaires. Check out the monthly payment sometime on assisted living or nursing homes. Seniors are best off financially if they can manage to remain in their mortgage -free homes until the end. Should they be forced out due to property taxes? If my father had to move now,it would kill him.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2023, 10:19:26 AM »
Most elderly people are not millionaires.

Very true. The ones who are, though? They should generally be expected to pay property tax at the same rate as their 30-year-old neighbor who just bought their first home. That 30-year-old just scraped together a six-figure down payment, is currently paying a mortgage at >7%, is probably going to be paying a bunch of money for daycare because few can afford to buy a house these days on just a single income. Now you want them to pay double property tax, all so their elderly millionaire neighbor doesn't have to suffer the indignity of reducing their kids' inheritance by borrowing against their home equity (or moving into a smaller home, or selling their back yard to a developer, or any of the other things @Log mentioned) to fund their million-dollar-home lifestyle? Nah. Count me out.

Log

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2023, 12:15:07 PM »
I never thought I would see the day when folks on the MMM Forum would be advocating for retired people to take out HELOC.  As if it's just that easy.  Taking on debt in retirement.  And as an alternative, wanting to force older people to have to move away from the home where they have likely lived for years, have friends and relatives nearby, and have made it comfortable for themselves.  I am 67; DH and I moved to a different state in order to be near one of our adult children.  Let me tell you that this move has been quite difficult for us.  And expensive.  It's disheartening that the younger generations are so heartless when it comes to the needs of their elders.  Obviously the people saying "just sell and move" or "take on debt if you can't afford your property taxes" have plenty of income and can't relate to those who are now on a limited income.  SMH

You're making good points. Not everything is about money. Those same old people contributed to what was once a brand new community and made it as nice as it is. They paid their share, dedicated their lives, and did things we'll never quite know about to make it a desirable community.

Alternatively, in the community where I grew up, people bought homes for $5,000 (not many now since that's a 1950's price), and then worked in an economy that allowed them to retire with a salary of 10x that, and can now sell that house for $500,000. The money is there.

I don't think it's fair to interpret anyone's arguments here as "wanting to force older people to move away." No one is saying that. If you've benefited personally from these kinds of tax policies, it's a natural human tendency to want to defend them, and it's easier to discount other people's arguments if you think of them as "heartless." I assure you we're not.

Policy disagreements descending into any kind of framing of "I'm good and moral, and the other side is heartless and evil" is never helpful. Policies have goals, and they have costs, and they have second-order effects that may or may not have been well-considered when the policy was enacted. It's our job as voting citizens to consider how effective the policy is at achieving its goals, if the cost is worth it, and whether the second order effects are additional benefits, or additional costs.

To reiterate/add a couple different points:
1) We should offer a targeted solution to protect those at risk of losing their homes instead of giving a regressive handout to a bunch of people who don't need it at all. Deferring overly burdensome tax liabilities until the sale does sound like one sensible way of doing this.
1.5) Another reason Prop 13 is awful is that the tax subsidy can be INHERITED, meaning even MORE regressive tax cuts for the inter-generational landed gentry of California.
2) Older people who've owned large family homes for decades may WANT to move, to be closer to family as you did @coppertop , or to just have a smaller space with less maintenance. Prop 13 disincentivizes these kinds of rational moves.
3) NIMBY policies that ban infill development also make it so that many people who want to downsize, but also want to stay in their neighborhoods, have NO smaller options. ADUs are alternatively called "Granny flats" for a reason. Maybe Prop 13 protects Granny from being forced out of her home by her property tax bill, but instead she's forced out by the cost of housekeepers and gardeners, and when she finally does decide to downsize, there aren't any options for her to stay in the neighborhood!

If you perceive a lack of sympathy on the part of younger folks, please consider what these increases in housing costs over the last few decades represent for us. For you it may have been a double-edged sword - you're richer on paper (even if the gains haven't been realized yet, it's still future wealth for you or your heirs), but your property tax goes up a bit. For us there is no upside. The rent is just too damn high. Also, please seriously consider the idea that the "little old lady forced out of her house" rhetoric implicitly assumes that homeowners are worth protecting and renters aren't. Property tax subsidies do nothing to protect the little old lady who's rented the same apartment for 30 years, and is now getting evicted. Maybe Californians in the 1970s didn't care so much about those little old ladies because they're not white? Just a thought.

If you're bothered by the fact that your wealth increases your tax liability, you could vote for a policy regime that would make housing cheaper. You wouldn't really be any worse off, right? Since it's an unrealized gain?

wageslave23

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2023, 12:16:47 PM »
I guess sure don't complain about property taxes. But then you should also send the IRS a check for all your unrealized stock gains.

But 250-500k of capital gains on a house is tax free upon sale. Not to mention that capital gains tax on stock earnings goes to the IRS, while property taxes goes to the city/state for city or county services. I fail to see how this could be related at all.

I'll spell it out:

The tax laws are written so that you don't pay taxes on money that you don't yet have.  So when stocks go up 10x, you aren't forced to sell or borrow against them in order to pay taxes on money you don't have. The same should be true for property taxes. Just because you bought a house for $100k and it went up to $1M value doesn't mean that you have the ability to pay 10x the original property taxes. If anything, the state could charge capital gains tax on the gain when you sell it. That would make more sense because then you'd actually have the money.  People on a fixed budget shouldn't be forced to sell their long-term home just because politicians don't know how to stick to a budget. Inflation adjustments each year should be plenty.

DeniseNJ

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2023, 12:19:03 PM »
I guess sure don't complain about property taxes. But then you should also send the IRS a check for all your unrealized stock gains.

But 250-500k of capital gains on a house is tax free upon sale. Not to mention that capital gains tax on stock earnings goes to the IRS, while property taxes goes to the city/state for city or county services. I fail to see how this could be related at all.
I think that's the point.  It doesn't seem to make sense to increase prop taxes based on assumed value since you don't realize that value until you sell, just like stocks.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2023, 12:57:34 PM »
I guess sure don't complain about property taxes. But then you should also send the IRS a check for all your unrealized stock gains.

But 250-500k of capital gains on a house is tax free upon sale. Not to mention that capital gains tax on stock earnings goes to the IRS, while property taxes goes to the city/state for city or county services. I fail to see how this could be related at all.

I'll spell it out:

The tax laws are written so that you don't pay taxes on money that you don't yet have.  So when stocks go up 10x, you aren't forced to sell or borrow against them in order to pay taxes on money you don't have. The same should be true for property taxes. Just because you bought a house for $100k and it went up to $1M value doesn't mean that you have the ability to pay 10x the original property taxes. If anything, the state could charge capital gains tax on the gain when you sell it. That would make more sense because then you'd actually have the money.  People on a fixed budget shouldn't be forced to sell their long-term home just because politicians don't know how to stick to a budget. Inflation adjustments each year should be plenty.

A couple of things:

1) The idea that a 10x property assessment increase will lead to a 10x property tax payment is a common misconception. At least here in Washington the property tax rate is not fixed. Each year the government starts from setting an amount they want to collect (the "levy"). The levy is then divided by the total value of the property in the taxing district to determine that year's tax rate. In our state this levy cannot be increased more than 1% each year without a public vote, but that obviously will vary from place to place. If everyone's property increases in value by 10% but the levy only went up 1%, everyone will see their taxes go up 1% (not 10%). I have had years where my property increased in value but my tax amount went down, all because my property appreciated a bit less than average that year.
2) A property tax is not an income tax, it's a consumption tax, so it's not really useful to compare it to something like capital gains taxation. The cash in your bank account didn't go up when your home increased in value but your imputed rent certainly did. You don't see much of a change in your day-to-day cashflow because you're acting as your own landlord, but the fact is that the non-property-owning class would have to pay more to occupy a home like yours this year than they would last year. The value of your housing consumption experienced a real year-over-year increase, and the whole point of a consumption tax is to collect money proportional to the value of what is consumed. If you think that consumption taxes are the wrong way to go about collecting local government revenue, and that an income tax might be fairer, that's a fine conversation to have, but it's important to note that policies such as Prop 13 generally move us farther from that ideal than closer to it.

wageslave23

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Re: Property tax complaints
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2023, 01:03:33 PM »
I guess sure don't complain about property taxes. But then you should also send the IRS a check for all your unrealized stock gains.

But 250-500k of capital gains on a house is tax free upon sale. Not to mention that capital gains tax on stock earnings goes to the IRS, while property taxes goes to the city/state for city or county services. I fail to see how this could be related at all.

I'll spell it out:

The tax laws are written so that you don't pay taxes on money that you don't yet have.  So when stocks go up 10x, you aren't forced to sell or borrow against them in order to pay taxes on money you don't have. The same should be true for property taxes. Just because you bought a house for $100k and it went up to $1M value doesn't mean that you have the ability to pay 10x the original property taxes. If anything, the state could charge capital gains tax on the gain when you sell it. That would make more sense because then you'd actually have the money.  People on a fixed budget shouldn't be forced to sell their long-term home just because politicians don't know how to stick to a budget. Inflation adjustments each year should be plenty.

A couple of things:

1) The idea that a 10x property assessment increase will lead to a 10x property tax payment is a common misconception. At least here in Washington the property tax rate is not fixed. Each year the government starts from setting an amount they want to collect (the "levy"). The levy is then divided by the total value of the property in the taxing district to determine that year's tax rate. In our state this levy cannot be increased more than 1% each year without a public vote, but that obviously will vary from place to place. If everyone's property increases in value by 10% but the levy only went up 1%, everyone will see their taxes go up 1% (not 10%). I have had years where my property increased in value but my tax amount went down, all because my property appreciated a bit less than average that year.
2) A property tax is not an income tax, it's a consumption tax, so it's not really useful to compare it to something like capital gains taxation. The cash in your bank account didn't go up when your home increased in value but your imputed rent certainly did. You don't see much of a change in your day-to-day cashflow because you're acting as your own landlord, but the fact is that the non-property-owning class would have to pay more to occupy a home like yours this year than they would last year. The value of your housing consumption experienced a real year-over-year increase, and the whole point of a consumption tax is to collect money proportional to the value of what is consumed. If you think that consumption taxes are the wrong way to go about collecting local government revenue, and that an income tax might be fairer, that's a fine conversation to have, but it's important to note that policies such as Prop 13 generally move us farther from that ideal than closer to it.

I understand how property taxes work. I'm a CPA and also have my real estate license.  I'm saying that value taxes are already stupid because you don't have the cash to pay for unrealized gains, so property tax increases should be capped.  If you have property tax increase caps in your state then that's wonderful.  Exactly what I think there should be.