Author Topic: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?  (Read 10697 times)

Seadog

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Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« on: February 16, 2019, 10:56:08 AM »
Saw this article the other day. Basically pro golfer Matt Kuchar was down in Mexico, his regular caddy couldn't make it, so he got a fill in. He ends up winning $1.3m, then offers the caddy the agreed upon money($4k), plus a $1000 tip. Not bad for a few days work I thought.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-matt-kuchar-the-rich-golfer-who-stiffed-his-caddie/

The internet however thought differently. Apparently, the 'going rate' for a tip is 5-10%, closer to the 10% if he finishes in the top 10. The caddy was expecting a minimum of $50k for his weekends work, if not well into 6 figures, and by not paying it he has been castigated by the media as a miserly scrooge.

As I was reading the story, I was kind of on the golfer's side. $5k for less than a week's work is a spectacular payday regardless, forget the fact you're in Mexico where the minimum wage is a few dollars a day. They had an agreement, he more than lived up to it. Had the golfer lost, would the caddy of offered to waive half his fee?

The comments on the story (not sure why I still read comments...) lambasted him be being so cheap. I'm not sure why I think it's dumb, the fact that he's outraged over the $5k payday, or the fact that 5-10% is the expected tip, even if it means paying hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think too I'm just annoyed at human nature. Whenever a big pile of money shows up not wholly expectedly, everyone and their dog has their paws out.

Other people's thoughts? Or am I just just as miserly as this Matt guy. The flavour de jour nowadays seems to railroad people (especially millennials) for an entitlement mindset. But here you have someone who made hundreds of times the local minimum wage, a rate that would put him squarely in 1%er territory in the US, forget about Mexico, and he's griping to the world that it wasn't 10x higher, and they're taking his side.

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2019, 12:18:26 PM »
The real problem is that they did not have a signed, written agreement covering compensation before the tournament began.  Any agreement should have covered the base salary plus any bonuses for placing well.

Since there was a lack of such agreement between the two parties, I think they're both at fault.  Although since Kuchar probably has more power in this context, he probably bears more of the blame.

This is exactly why contracts exist and are regularly used in the business world - to prevent misunderstandings after the fact.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2019, 12:58:50 PM »
I think it's just a problem of expectations. One-off caddies expect a cut of the purse, and he didn't get it.

No different than a waiter expecting 15% of the check regardless of whether you order a salad or the $1000 bottle of champagne.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2019, 01:08:08 PM »
Oh, it wasn’t just the internet who thought the guy’s moral thermometer had dropped, it was other golphers as well. Have you read the golpher’s apology? It’s one of the best apologies I’ve ever read in a situation like this. He admits he got it wrong for a number of reasons. This isn’t about someone being frigidly, this is about someone who initially tried to exploit another human being merely because of his environment, not because of his value. End of the day, it’s your money and you choose the type of person you want to be, winning $1.3m, ignoring the usual tip of $130k to tip $5k and reject $50k says more about you and your morals than it does your financial management.

use2betrix

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2019, 01:11:18 PM »
I think there’s a big difference between your standard caddy who is often like your long time coach/adviser on the field, vs someone standing in because your caddy couldn’t make it.

I think I’d need more details to decide. $5,000 if the standard is 10%-15% is a bit shy (many forum members here make that weekly).

If I was that golfer, even $10k-$20k is a very small part of the pot, unless your caddy was just some completely inexperienced person who offered no help aside from carrying your bag and handing you clubs for a week.

Boofinator

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2019, 01:18:02 PM »
Golf and tipping. An elitist's game combined with an elitist's practice used to show how subservient others are.

Now disc golf on the other hand.... No caddies, no tipping, just right!

MrThatsDifferent

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Greystache

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2019, 04:23:53 PM »
I think the problem is that it is customary to pay 10% for a win. If he had been using his regular caddie, there would have been no question about paying 10%. Not paying the local caddie the same rate makes it look like he is exploiting a powerless individual.  They probably never discussed what would happen if he won since Kuchar had not won in 4 years and it was unlikely he would win that week. He should have been happy to finally win again and share his good fortune with the caddie. He has since acknowledged he made a mistake and has agreed to pay more. Keep in mind that Kuchar has won over $40M on tour and has endorsement contracts with Sketchers and others. He will not miss the money.

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2019, 06:29:32 PM »
A regular caddie earns their 10% share of winnings by doing a lot more than just carrying the bag and keeping up - they read putts, help with yardages and club selection, know when to tell a few jokes to distract the player, spend most of their life on the road, etc etc.  There is just no comparison with a local caddie who has never worked with a player before.

From what I had read Kuchar and the caddie had an agreement, which paid a base amount well in excess of what he normally earns with 'bonuses' based on Matt's finishing position. I think the top 10 payout was $4k, so paying $5k for the win is still above what they had agreed.

I don't see why this is a story, other than the media wanting to create controversy and generate clicks. They had an agreement, and he paid above that.

ixtap

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2019, 06:32:52 PM »
Funny that it is OK for the golfer to expect over a million for a weekend's work, but ridiculous for the caddy to expect $50k.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2019, 06:39:37 PM »
It is a story because Kuchar was IMO clearly in the wrong. 

He had a change of heart after being drilled for being a cheap bastard.  He probably also stood to lose far more than $50k in endorsements.

Seadog

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2019, 06:41:03 PM »
I think it's just a problem of expectations. One-off caddies expect a cut of the purse, and he didn't get it.

No different than a waiter expecting 15% of the check regardless of whether you order a salad or the $1000 bottle of champagne.

Don't even get me started on that. I think tipping as a whole is a retarded concept, short of a little extra as a 'thank you for going above and beyond'. That isn't to say I don't think these people should be fairly compensated, but truly it doesn't take 20x the skill and effort to pour $1000 wine as $50 wine (and consequently deserve 20x the compensation).

It's restaurant owners (in the US) who lobbied and got away with paying servers $1.50 an hour who are the real crooks. I like Australia's system. Pay the workers a living wage, no tips, and expect good service because hey, that's their job. If they give bad service, complain and toss those bad workers to the curb. And then go on with your life. It wouldn't be the first time I paid money for something and was disappointed. I'm perfectly fine with meals out costing more, but once you have a system in place, it's either conform or die.

The other thing is that people say it allows the customer to have some influence over their service. Really? If you give a bad tip because the service was garbage, will the server really sit down and reflect about what they did wrong and how they can improve? Or will they take to the internet to castigate the cheapskate who stiffed them because their cognitive dissonance doesn't allow them to reflect honestly on themselves. I've seen 'suggested tipping' guidelines posted in places, and they even say that 10% should be the absolute starting point for showing up. At the end of the day the quality of service is only one factor, and I would bet money that regardless of any quantitative measure of ability, hot girls with big tits make more money than a speedy guy.

Anyways, tipping rant aside, the story said he was hoping to use the 50k to start a laundromat, so that implies he's not exactly swimming in money. But, if he's such a superstar caddy, and at least 10% responsible for this golfer's win, *surely* in the hundreds of times he's caddied in the past and been instrumental in other monumental wins he would have saved up way more?

Or more realistically is he scraping by like most, by luck happened to land himself at an arms reach of a payday, and said gimme gimme gimme.

To that end though, as a mustachian of decent means I do appreciate that all things can't be measured in dollars and cents. I do tip generously, but inside it's begrudgingly. Simply because (as this case demonstrated) the social cost is far greater than the few dollars it costs you, and it can often pay dividends farther down the line in terms of freebies or other perks which are entirely at the discretion of these gatekeepers.

Seadog

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2019, 06:45:35 PM »
Funny that it is OK for the golfer to expect over a million for a weekend's work, but ridiculous for the caddy to expect $50k.

I'm not sure how he 'expected' the $1.3m. He's a pro athlete where luck plays a large role on any specific day, and he could have just as easily gone home empty handed. In which case presumably the caddy would have halved his fee, because after all, win or lose they're both in this together right?

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2019, 06:47:59 PM »
I believe they agreed a minimum payment of $2k. $3k if he made the cut, and $4k for a top 10 finish.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2019, 06:57:49 PM »
I believe they agreed a minimum payment of $2k. $3k if he made the cut, and $4k for a top 10 finish.

Yup. 

But with the lightning strike good fortune of winning the thing, the RIGHT thing to do was to go above the agreed-upon amount.

As Jim Rome said on his show, imagine the good will, the Hollywood-esque story, the feel-good charm of what a great guy Kuchar is if he had done the right thing in the first place.  He'd have been a hero.  Instead he irreparably ruined his good guy image.

All for spare change he has in his couch cushions.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:04:20 PM by Pizzabrewer »

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2019, 06:58:22 PM »
Funny that it is OK for the golfer to expect over a million for a weekend's work, but ridiculous for the caddy to expect $50k.

I don't know much about golf but my understanding is if it was his regular caddy he'd be obliged to pay 10%, but he got a fill-in caddy. It's not clear whether the fill-in caddy was somewhere near as skilled as his regular caddy and doing a similar job (in which case 10% should have been paid) or just some random half-decent caddy (in which case whatever agreement they had between them should be honoured).

What you 'expect' for a weekend's work is whatever you earn. On a good day I can earn $5k but on a bad day I earn $0 - I work in a profession that fluctuates wildly. This doesn't mean that on a good day I'm going to tip my waiter 50% and on a bad day I'll tip 0%. The two things (income/expenses) are completely uncorrelated. On a good day I don't pay more than what I think is market rate and on a bad day I don't pay less. That's one of the keystones of frugality - knowing how to separate your income from your expenses.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2019, 07:00:16 PM »
I believe they agreed a minimum payment of $2k. $3k if he made the cut, and $4k for a top 10 finish.

Yup. 

But with the lightning strike fortune of winning the thing, the RIGHT thing to do was to go above the agreed-upon amount.

As Jim Rome said on his show, imagine the good will, the Hollywood-esque charm, the feel-good story of what a great guy Kuchar is if he had done the right thing in the first place.  He'd have been a hero.  Instead he irreparably ruined his good guy image.

All for spare change he has in his couch cushions.

Yeah, I don't understand this. Say you have a real estate agent who's taking your house to auction. Imagine you're hoping for $20k above reserve but magically you get $150k above reserve due to, I dunno, a really desperate buyer. Would you pay your real estate agent a bonus fee, or just rely on whatever's stipulated in the agreement for the auction fees?

Isn't the whole point of financial responsibility separating your expenses from your income?

Seadog

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2019, 08:00:40 PM »

Yeah, I don't understand this. Say you have a real estate agent who's taking your house to auction. Imagine you're hoping for $20k above reserve but magically you get $150k above reserve due to, I dunno, a really desperate buyer. Would you pay your real estate agent a bonus fee, or just rely on whatever's stipulated in the agreement for the auction fees?

Isn't the whole point of financial responsibility separating your expenses from your income?

Exactly this. By coincidence upon seeing this story, I was also tossing around the idea of making a thread around the whole entire concept of 'affordability'.

The very term implies a relationship between your outlays and your means, such that if you're means are higher, your outlays (to the benefits of people with their hands out naturally...) should correspondingly be so. I can afford to pay $15/lb for my striploin steak. However, I would much prefer to wait until it's on sale, and then buy the further discounted stuff about the expire tomorrow for freezing at a third of that price, enough to see me through a couple months until it's on special again, which is the lowest price it typically hits here over any given year. Getting on a tangent here, but I casually map the cyclical costs of all staples, and only ever buy stuff ouside of milk and eggs when its close to it's typical low point.   

Truly I can afford to pay $150/lb for steak. It wouldn't change my life in the least. But what does afford even mean? Able to buy and not go bust? OK then. After my $1200 rent, and $100 power, I guess I can 'afford' to pay 998,700k for my steak and not go bust. But it will mean I have to get a job which is contrary to the whole point of being here.   

Bill Gates should be paying $1m for every pencil because hey, he can 'afford' it.

It's one of my greatest irritants when people go on about affordability, because without fail they are the ones who are the primary benefactor.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2019, 08:19:24 PM »
Then look at it from a purely financial standpoint.  Kuchar had a sterling reputation as an easy-going "nice guy".  That reputation has been worth millions to him in paid endorsements.

Then he does something stupid that makes him look cheap. Even his fellow golfers disagreed with him. When called on it he doubled down with borderline insulting comments.  You'd think he'd have run it by his agent/PR people before shooting himself in the foot.  As a public figure your "brand" is everything. 

I don't know what's not to understand.  Yup, based on their agreement he was fully within his rights to pay the guy $5k.  Stick to your guns, consequences be damned.  I'll bet his sponsors are none too happy.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 08:21:15 PM by Pizzabrewer »

Pizzabrewer

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Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 08:42:37 PM »
Actually, he was fully within his rights to pay the caddie $4k. Instead he paid him an extra 25%.

Sure he could have paid him $15k, or $50k or even $500k and it would have made zero difference to his personal finances.  Kuchar has won over $40m on tour. 

I just don't see why he should be expected to pay more than the agreed rate to a guy who carried his bags for 1 week.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2019, 08:59:58 PM »
Then look at it from a purely financial standpoint.  Kuchar had a sterling reputation as an easy-going "nice guy".  That reputation has been worth millions to him in paid endorsements.

Then he does something stupid that makes him look cheap. Even his fellow golfers disagreed with him. When called on it he doubled down with borderline insulting comments.  You'd think he'd have run it by his agent/PR people before shooting himself in the foot.  As a public figure your "brand" is everything. 

I don't know what's not to understand.  Yup, based on their agreement he was fully within his rights to pay the guy $5k.  Stick to your guns, consequences be damned.  I'll bet his sponsors are none too happy.

It depends on what he thinks his sponsorships are worth and whether being "cheap" will affect his future income stream from sponsorships. Sure, you're right that there is an "optics" component. However, none of the posts to date have analysed his future sponsorship incomes. They have been talking about the legalities/ethics of "under-paying" a caddy.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2019, 09:09:08 PM »
Actually, he was fully within his rights to pay the caddie $4k. Instead he paid him an extra 25%.

Sure he could have paid him $15k, or $50k or even $500k and it would have made zero difference to his personal finances.  Kuchar has won over $40m on tour. 

I just don't see why he should be expected to pay more than the agreed rate to a guy who carried his bags for 1 week.

Yes, I don't understand the 'expectation' argument. In this forum if you say you've gone from a $20k car to a $100k car merely out of "social expectation" because your income went from $100k to $500k I'm sure that you would be pilloried. Well, this is the exact same situation. You need to get a handle on your expenses BEFORE the 'good thing' happens to you. If it is the case that the golfer agreed with the caddy on the rate prior to the "good thing" happening, then he has no obligation to change the rate. This is the fundamental principle of FIRE. Work out your expenses in advance, and don't let lifestyle inflation eat into your savings (unless you specifically want to).

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2019, 09:12:29 PM »
I've now read that the caddie emailed Kuchar (or his agent) some time after the event asking for $50k.  They offered him an additional $15k, and he turned them down and went public.

I realise that I'm in the minority on this issue, but this just sounds like extortion to me.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2019, 09:18:09 PM »
It’s “expected” because the common and customary payout to the caddy is 5-10% for a win.

But I agree, he was well within his rights to stick to the deal. He then better not complain about the consequences. I’m guessing this will cost him far more than$50k in the long run.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2019, 09:19:31 PM »
I've now read that the caddie emailed Kuchar (or his agent) some time after the event asking for $50k.  They offered him an additional $15k, and he turned them down and went public.

I realise that I'm in the minority on this issue, but this just sounds like extortion to me.

Depends on the terms of their contract. If there was an open-ended interpretation then maybe the caddie was just arguing his own point. However, if the terms could reasonably be construed as being "$4,000 for a top 10 finish" then yes, the caddie was basically blackmailing the golfer.

I have always thought that you analyse income and expenses separately. I can't believe so many FIRE proponents would buckle on the basis that the golfer "could afford" to pay. What you can afford to pay is completely irrelevant.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2019, 09:21:24 PM »
It’s “expected” because the common and customary payout to the caddy is 5-10% for a win.

But I agree, he was well within his rights to stick to the deal. He then better not complain about the consequences. I’m guessing this will cost him far more than$50k in the long run.
But as stated, the caddy he used was not his customary caddy, and he agreed on separate terms.

I'm sure if the golfer did poorly, and earned only $10,000 from the tournament, and tried to get away with paying $750 (7.5%), the caddy would not have been happy.

Like it or lump it, you have to stick by your contractual agreements.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2019, 09:35:28 PM »
It’s “expected” because the common and customary payout to the caddy is 5-10% for a win.

But I agree, he was well within his rights to stick to the deal. He then better not complain about the consequences. I’m guessing this will cost him far more than$50k in the long run.
But as stated, the caddy he used was not his customary caddy, and he agreed on separate terms.

I'm sure if the golfer did poorly, and earned only $10,000 from the tournament, and tried to get away with paying $750 (7.5%), the caddy would not have been happy.

Like it or lump it, you have to stick by your contractual agreements.

I’ll say it again, yes he was 100% within his rights based on their agreement.  Like it or lump it, he’s done serious damage to his public image.

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2019, 09:41:53 PM »
There is no customary or accepted payment % for a one-off caddie. People need to stop perpetuating this myth.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2019, 09:42:32 PM »
...and one last point, from the statements of both parties it appears there was no agreement in the event of a win. Probably because neither expected it given his 4 year drought. So chipping off an extra thousand (again when the custom is 5-10%) is a cheapskate move.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2019, 09:54:52 PM »
Why is it a cheapskate move?

He's simply followed the tenets of FIRE:

- Separate your expenses from your income
- Try to use LCOL areas to reduce expenses
- Treat each expense on its merits and try to find a good deal
- Pay what something is worth, not what others expect you to pay
- Be brave and buck societal conventions if it doesn't fit with your analysis

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2019, 09:59:40 PM »
Why is it a cheapskate move?

Because the customary payout is 5-10%.

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2019, 11:01:28 PM »
Because the customary payout is 5-10%.
Except it's not. I've addressed this above. A regular, professional caddie does a lot of things to earn that share of winnings that a one-off, local caddie will not be expected to do.

The attempts to claim otherwise are either ignorant or deliberately misleading.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2019, 11:11:44 PM »
Because the customary payout is 5-10%.
Except it's not. I've addressed this above. A regular, professional caddie does a lot of things to earn that share of winnings that a one-off, local caddie will not be expected to do.

The attempts to claim otherwise are either ignorant or deliberately misleading.

Except Kuchar himself admits he did the wrong thing and the caddy was worth more.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2019, 11:23:27 PM »
Because the customary payout is 5-10%.
Except it's not. I've addressed this above. A regular, professional caddie does a lot of things to earn that share of winnings that a one-off, local caddie will not be expected to do.

The attempts to claim otherwise are either ignorant or deliberately misleading.

Well the Golf Channel
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/thats-not-story-matt-kuchar-denies-only-paying-local-caddie-3000-after-mayakoba-win

and Golf Monthly magazine
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf-monthly.co.uk/news/tour-news/matt-kuchar-denies-caddie-pay-rumours-172043/amp

as well as others including current and former PGA players, disagree with you.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2019, 11:38:45 PM »
And this interesting article from Golf.com shortly after the tournament:

https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/2018/11/11/matt-kuchar-wins-local-caddie-cashes-in/

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2019, 01:23:01 AM »
You are completely missing the point. I'll try one last time.

A regular, professional caddie will get paid a small salary (that barely, if at all, covers expenses) and a share of earnings. That share will vary, both by player and by result. It will probably be in the range of 5-10%.

BUT to earn that money a regular, professional caddie will do some or all of the following - carry the bag, keep the clubs clean, keep the grips and player dry in the rain, learn the players game inside out so that they can provide advice on club and shot selection, discuss course strategy, help with yardages, read putts, know when the player needs to focus or relax (and know how to help them do that), overrule a player on shot selection, live out of a suitcase and follow the player around on tour... and probably a bunch of other things that I've either forgotten or don't know about.

Ortiz, who reportedly doesn't speak much English, would have been expected to do a fraction of what Kuchar's regular caddie does - basically carry the bag and not much more.  That is why a regular caddie gets paid what they get paid, and why a random replacement does not.

So, if you are basing your view that Kuchar underpaid him on 'custom', I don't think you understand golf.

If you are basing it on the fact that Kuchar is already rich and doesn't need another $1.3m (less taxes, agents fees, etc), then that's a completely different argument. I disagree with it, but it's not a totally unreasonable conclusion.

And I don't think Kuchar is sorry at all. He gave his honest view when this first blew up. I'm also sure that plenty of players ageee with him, but none are going to risk the backlash from the media or uninformed 'fans'.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2019, 05:19:21 AM »
Why is it a cheapskate move?

He's simply followed the tenets of FIRE:

- Separate your expenses from your income
- Try to use LCOL areas to reduce expenses
- Treat each expense on its merits and try to find a good deal
- Pay what something is worth, not what others expect you to pay
- Be brave and buck societal conventions if it doesn't fit with your analysis

Being cheap is not part of FIRE. If you go to a restaurant and tip 5% because it doesn't fit your analysis, you're a jerk.

Also, could you please use any examples from this guy's life (his home, cars, vacation style, etc) to show he is in anyway planning his finances using "tenants of FIRE". He's an extraordinary rich guy who was trying to get away with being cheap.

Cheap and frugal are not the same thing.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2019, 05:57:04 AM »
That's because restaurants expect a 15% tip.

My understanding is that only regular caddies expect 5-10% of winnings and ad hoc caddies get whatever they contract to. If that's the case, then there's no such expectation.

If the convention is that all caddies including ad hoc caddies get 5-10% of winnings then yes, the guy should have paid more. But it seems that there was a clear agreement that $4,000 would be the figure.

The fact that he is extraordinarily rich does not mean he can't follow FIRE principles. FIRE is about being financially independent and taking control of your spending - not about necessarily doing so without being very rich. I intend to be very rich one day, but I still intend to be frugal, because two good things are better than one.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2019, 06:38:09 AM »
Yes I understand golf.

Here is another article you won’t read that says you’re wrong. If you did read it, I’d advise you pay particular attention to the statements of the former PGA pro who occasionally one-off caddies on the LPGA.

http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/was-matt-kuchars-5k-caddie-payout-after-winning-1-3m-actually-wrong/

I'm a red panda

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2019, 09:11:15 AM »
That's because restaurants expect a 15% tip.

My understanding is that only regular caddies expect 5-10% of winnings and ad hoc caddies get whatever they contract to. If that's the case, then there's no such expectation.

If the convention is that all caddies including ad hoc caddies get 5-10% of winnings then yes, the guy should have paid more. But it seems that there was a clear agreement that $4,000 would be the figure.

The fact that he is extraordinarily rich does not mean he can't follow FIRE principles. FIRE is about being financially independent and taking control of your spending - not about necessarily doing so without being very rich. I intend to be very rich one day, but I still intend to be frugal, because two good things are better than one.

One can be extraordinaryily rich and also follow tenants of fire. I was just asking where you see that he does? Seems to me he quite likes luxury that comes with megamillions. He isn't the millionaire next door.

This is not a matter of "taking control of your spending".  No one is asking him to make it rain at a Vegas club.  This is understanding frugality does not include stiffing other people and being a cheapskate.  Many many people involved in the world of golf agree what he did is NOT convention Tor a winner.  And as people here have pointed out, he may have saved pennies to lose pounds...his name has a negative association now which may cost him sponsors. And since this will was rare, sponsors are pretty big deal for him.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 09:13:44 AM by I'm a red panda »

LWYRUP

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2019, 11:50:15 AM »
You are completely missing the point. I'll try one last time.

A regular, professional caddie will get paid a small salary (that barely, if at all, covers expenses) and a share of earnings. That share will vary, both by player and by result. It will probably be in the range of 5-10%.

BUT to earn that money a regular, professional caddie will do some or all of the following - carry the bag, keep the clubs clean, keep the grips and player dry in the rain, learn the players game inside out so that they can provide advice on club and shot selection, discuss course strategy, help with yardages, read putts, know when the player needs to focus or relax (and know how to help them do that), overrule a player on shot selection, live out of a suitcase and follow the player around on tour... and probably a bunch of other things that I've either forgotten or don't know about.

Ortiz, who reportedly doesn't speak much English, would have been expected to do a fraction of what Kuchar's regular caddie does - basically carry the bag and not much more.  That is why a regular caddie gets paid what they get paid, and why a random replacement does not.

So, if you are basing your view that Kuchar underpaid him on 'custom', I don't think you understand golf.

If you are basing it on the fact that Kuchar is already rich and doesn't need another $1.3m (less taxes, agents fees, etc), then that's a completely different argument. I disagree with it, but it's not a totally unreasonable conclusion.

And I don't think Kuchar is sorry at all. He gave his honest view when this first blew up. I'm also sure that plenty of players ageee with him, but none are going to risk the backlash from the media or uninformed 'fans'.

Another point is that I don't think this guy normally wins $1.3 million every tournament.  So your normal caddie is with you in lean times and boom times, and they share in your fortune when you hit it big.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a sub would get the same windfall.  Now, I think the golfer was being really cheap with the $5k even for a sub.  If he had offered more to begin with, this mess wouldn't have happened.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2019, 03:59:01 PM »

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a sub would get the same windfall.  Now, I think the golfer was being really cheap with the $5k even for a sub.  If he had offered more to begin with, this mess wouldn't have happened.

He wasn't asking for the "same windfall".  He was asking for 3.8%.  Blowing him off at that level was a big mistake.

LWYRUP

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2019, 06:29:59 AM »

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a sub would get the same windfall.  Now, I think the golfer was being really cheap with the $5k even for a sub.  If he had offered more to begin with, this mess wouldn't have happened.

He wasn't asking for the "same windfall".  He was asking for 3.8%.  Blowing him off at that level was a big mistake.

I agree.  I think you read into my post more than I was trying to say. 

Davnasty

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2019, 08:38:31 AM »
What kind of bonus did his regular caddy who couldn't make it get?

If a regular caddy does all the things that have been discussed here, it sounds like they're a part of the "team" and they should be the one getting a bonus, not the guy who filled in and didn't do all those other things.

I think everyone arguing that he hurt his image isn't thinking this all the way through. Why is his image tarnished? Because of the people like you who are judging him, not because of what's truly right or wrong.

As for the proper etiquette, it may be normal to pay a fill in the full tip but if that's the case, well that's pretty dumb in my opinion. Saying that it's standard doesn't make it right.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2019, 09:11:01 AM »
What kind of bonus did his regular caddy who couldn't make it get?

If a regular caddy does all the things that have been discussed here, it sounds like they're a part of the "team" and they should be the one getting a bonus, not the guy who filled in and didn't do all those other things.

I think everyone arguing that he hurt his image isn't thinking this all the way through. Why is his image tarnished? Because of the people like you who are judging him, not because of what's truly right or wrong.

As for the proper etiquette, it may be normal to pay a fill in the full tip but if that's the case, well that's pretty dumb in my opinion. Saying that it's standard doesn't make it right.

"What is truly right or wrong" is ONLY determined by how people make judgements.
There are no moral absolutes in the world.

Davnasty

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2019, 09:42:19 AM »
What kind of bonus did his regular caddy who couldn't make it get?

If a regular caddy does all the things that have been discussed here, it sounds like they're a part of the "team" and they should be the one getting a bonus, not the guy who filled in and didn't do all those other things.

I think everyone arguing that he hurt his image isn't thinking this all the way through. Why is his image tarnished? Because of the people like you who are judging him, not because of what's truly right or wrong.

As for the proper etiquette, it may be normal to pay a fill in the full tip but if that's the case, well that's pretty dumb in my opinion. Saying that it's standard doesn't make it right.

"What is truly right or wrong" is ONLY determined by how people make judgements.
There are no moral absolutes in the world.

That's a deeper discussion but I think I can rephrase what I said in a way that doesn't require us to get into it.

I think everyone arguing that he is in the wrong because he hurt his image isn't thinking this all the way through. You're participating in a positive feedback loop in which the more people think he was wrong, the more wrong he was. Instead, you should be making a decision based on your own opinion and not letting the opinion of others influence you. So the "true" right or wrong I was referring to should be based on one's own morals.

Saying he should have given the tip to save his public image despite his own moral compass is saying he should have sold out. In the end he did and I don't blame him. The speed and power of viral hate has become a terrifying beast in today's world of instant media.

bacchi

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2019, 09:48:24 AM »
I think everyone arguing that he is in the wrong because he hurt his image isn't thinking this all the way through. You're participating in a positive feedback loop in which the more people think he was wrong, the more wrong he was. Instead, you should be making a decision based on your own opinion and not letting the opinion of others influence you. So the "true" right or wrong I was referring to should be based on one's own morals.

Saying he should have given the tip to save his public image despite his own moral compass is saying he should have sold out. In the end he did and I don't blame him. The speed and power of viral hate has become a terrifying beast in today's world of instant media.

Thank you. I'm glad someone was able to more succinctly express this than me.

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2019, 10:08:09 AM »
Why is it a cheapskate move?

He's simply followed the tenets of FIRE:

- Separate your expenses from your income
- Try to use LCOL areas to reduce expenses
- Treat each expense on its merits and try to find a good deal
- Pay what something is worth, not what others expect you to pay
- Be brave and buck societal conventions if it doesn't fit with your analysis

Being cheap is not part of FIRE. If you go to a restaurant and tip 5% because it doesn't fit your analysis, you're a jerk.

Also, could you please use any examples from this guy's life (his home, cars, vacation style, etc) to show he is in anyway planning his finances using "tenants of FIRE". He's an extraordinary rich guy who was trying to get away with being cheap.

Cheap and frugal are not the same thing.

I agree with you here.

golfreak12

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Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2019, 11:13:47 AM »
I think a lot of you guys are missing the the $5000 payout vs the agreed $4000.
Someone mentioned this earlier. Kucher did paid his caddie $5000 initially.
He then realized he needs to offer more money to the caddie so he offered him an additional $15,000.
The caddie rejected the $15K and asked for $50K. I think the caddie realized that hey "the usual payout is 10%" so I should be able to ask for 4%.
I think Kuchar got annoyed by the caddie rejecting the extra $15K and said screwed you.
Kuchar is not dumb. He's giving in because of all this bad publicity and no one is willing to stand on his side.
He knows he has more to lose than the $50K.
Listen, if it was me and I offered somebody $16K more than the agreed amount and they rejected it. I'd be a little pissed too. Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.
I don't care what people say about Kuchar earning $1.3 milliion. He earned that by playing well.
I think he was generous to offer the extra $16K. The bad publicity got him to remorse.