Author Topic: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?  (Read 12897 times)

getsorted

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2022, 03:34:36 PM »
It doesn't matter because they were business expenses and not part of his personal spending, so probably stilling living way below $250k $25k per year.  😂🤣😂🤣

Yes, his budget is basically that of a typical middle class American.  The sum of his imputed rent, self insurance, the expenditures put under business, and $25k of discretionary is easily north of $50k/year.  For one guy with half of a kiddo, that's not exactly living on rice and beans.  His rhetoric has been rice and beans, but the numbers he's disclosed have been a pretty middle America lifestyle.


I appreciate you saying this, because his budget numbers have always smelled of hyperbole to me.

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2022, 06:26:02 PM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2022, 08:52:08 PM »
I think there’s a significant difference between buying premium class (or business class) tickets when you’re living paycheck to paycheck vs. buying those things when you’ve got >$4MM net worth. The first makes it unlikely you’ll ever get to >$1MM net worth and the latter is likely to be unaffected by such expenditures, provided you’re spending within a reasonable withdrawal rate figure.

The saying of living like no one else so you can live like no one else later really is applicable.

ender

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2022, 10:29:31 PM »
I just booked comfort+ tickets for my next work flight.

I guess work is paying, and my boss suggested it, but.... am I gonna get kicked out of the forum?

big_owl

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2022, 09:26:38 AM »
If it's more than like an hour flight I always fly first class these days.  It's miserable to be packed in with the heathen in the back of the plane.  Not to mention downright painful on my joints as a taller, more athletic person.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2022, 10:30:16 AM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?
Probably not too different, I’m in the ‘and beyond’ net worth group…. But thanks for letting me gloat a bit.  I just don’t like to waste money.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2022, 10:36:41 AM »
I just booked comfort+ tickets for my next work flight.

I guess work is paying, and my boss suggested it, but.... am I gonna get kicked out of the forum?

That was my point when I said I’m not retired, I make all sorts of un Mustachian choices when work is paying!  Maybe that’s the case for MMM too

mm1970

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2022, 10:49:48 AM »
If it's more than like an hour flight I always fly first class these days.  It's miserable to be packed in with the heathen in the back of the plane.  Not to mention downright painful on my joints as a taller, more athletic person.
I know, almost 95% sure, that I will have to fly to Asia some time in the next year.  I will do absolutely everything I can to not fly coach.  It's an 11.5 hour flight.  Slightly longer than the god-awful flight I took to Europe a few years ago.

It will be a work trip, and I'm 90% sure they won't pay for anything more than coach.  I don't sleep on planes, I don't have any "status" because I don't like travel enough to travel hack.

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2022, 12:14:55 PM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?
Probably not too different, I’m in the ‘and beyond’ net worth group…. But thanks for letting me gloat a bit.  I just don’t like to waste money.
Hmmm, I used to rent cars for road trips. Since newer cars tended to have better gas mileage, they usually paid for themselves in fuel savings alone. I just can't believe the outrage over this. It's not like this is even a business class upgrade, he just paid for a little extra leg room on the flight and chose a vehicle that doesn't burn fossil fuel, which is a total yawner of a non-story, IMO.

Part of Pete's appeal is that what he's preaching is replicatable by virtually anyone. If what he was selling started with, "First you find a free cave to move into..." MMM wouldn't have become the "thing" that it is. Teaching people how to make choices that vastly improve their lives is a significant contribution to society. He is not a saint and he doesn't have to be perfect. If he turned into a Kardashian tomorrow, the world would still be a better place.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2022, 09:18:31 AM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?
Probably not too different, I’m in the ‘and beyond’ net worth group…. But thanks for letting me gloat a bit.  I just don’t like to waste money.
Hmmm, I used to rent cars for road trips. Since newer cars tended to have better gas mileage, they usually paid for themselves in fuel savings alone. I just can't believe the outrage over this. It's not like this is even a business class upgrade, he just paid for a little extra leg room on the flight and chose a vehicle that doesn't burn fossil fuel, which is a total yawner of a non-story, IMO.

Part of Pete's appeal is that what he's preaching is replicatable by virtually anyone. If what he was selling started with, "First you find a free cave to move into..." MMM wouldn't have become the "thing" that it is. Teaching people how to make choices that vastly improve their lives is a significant contribution to society. He is not a saint and he doesn't have to be perfect. If he turned into a Kardashian tomorrow, the world would still be a better place.

I get what you are saying and hopefully my posts don't come across as though I'm outraged or anything, just a bit disappointed that this guy who has claimed for years to be impervious and even downright belligerent toward waste and luxury has finally capitulated.  Here he is in his own words in 2012 -
Quote
The answer was of course that when it comes to buying additional treats for myself, the extra money is in fact no good at all. And that was a very liberating thing to figure out. I have completely lost the desire for any more of the things money can buy than I already have, which means I have completely lost any form of envy, any sense of deprivation, or any sense of missing out on anything – no matter how many rap videos I watch or over-the-top houses I visit.

Some people would question this assertion. “Sure, Mr. Money Mustache claims to be happy living on $2000 a month, but that’s just because he’s good at fooling himself. He doesn’t even go out to restaurants several times a week! If this guy could see my new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and cruise the beach strip a few times, I could shake him out of it. I think it takes WAY MORE MONEY to be truly happy.”

But after punching that guy in the face, I’d question his questioning.  As one form of proof, I’d offer the fact that I actually do have way more money than the amount required to sustain our lifestyle while never running out, and I’m still perfectly happy not spending it on myself. We actually want to find ways to need even less over time, just because it feels like the right thing to do, and the happier thing to do.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, I recall a 'I wasted $1000 and hated it' experiment he posted about...

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2022, 12:42:57 PM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?
Probably not too different, I’m in the ‘and beyond’ net worth group…. But thanks for letting me gloat a bit.  I just don’t like to waste money.
Hmmm, I used to rent cars for road trips. Since newer cars tended to have better gas mileage, they usually paid for themselves in fuel savings alone. I just can't believe the outrage over this. It's not like this is even a business class upgrade, he just paid for a little extra leg room on the flight and chose a vehicle that doesn't burn fossil fuel, which is a total yawner of a non-story, IMO.

Part of Pete's appeal is that what he's preaching is replicatable by virtually anyone. If what he was selling started with, "First you find a free cave to move into..." MMM wouldn't have become the "thing" that it is. Teaching people how to make choices that vastly improve their lives is a significant contribution to society. He is not a saint and he doesn't have to be perfect. If he turned into a Kardashian tomorrow, the world would still be a better place.

I get what you are saying and hopefully my posts don't come across as though I'm outraged or anything, just a bit disappointed that this guy who has claimed for years to be impervious and even downright belligerent toward waste and luxury has finally capitulated.  Here he is in his own words in 2012 -
Quote
The answer was of course that when it comes to buying additional treats for myself, the extra money is in fact no good at all. And that was a very liberating thing to figure out. I have completely lost the desire for any more of the things money can buy than I already have, which means I have completely lost any form of envy, any sense of deprivation, or any sense of missing out on anything – no matter how many rap videos I watch or over-the-top houses I visit.

Some people would question this assertion. “Sure, Mr. Money Mustache claims to be happy living on $2000 a month, but that’s just because he’s good at fooling himself. He doesn’t even go out to restaurants several times a week! If this guy could see my new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and cruise the beach strip a few times, I could shake him out of it. I think it takes WAY MORE MONEY to be truly happy.”

But after punching that guy in the face, I’d question his questioning.  As one form of proof, I’d offer the fact that I actually do have way more money than the amount required to sustain our lifestyle while never running out, and I’m still perfectly happy not spending it on myself. We actually want to find ways to need even less over time, just because it feels like the right thing to do, and the happier thing to do.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, I recall a 'I wasted $1000 and hated it' experiment he posted about...
I'm fairly certain of two things:

Mr. Money Mustache and Mr. Hyperbole are very good friends. Mr. H was an important partner in creating an interesting persona to convey the message in a compelling way.

When Pete Adeny invented Mr. Money Mustache, he never imagined how successful his efforts would be. He also wrote the words you cited a decade ago, when his life was very different than it is today. It is blatantly unfair to examine every thing he's ever written and expect him to blindly adhere to every single word of it forever. That's not how life works. Too many moving parts.

I see absolutely no reason to be disappointed. He's a human being, not an oracle. He had a fucking brilliant idea which improved thousands of lives and continues to help the planet. That's a damn fine legacy, one that few can hope to achieve. Lots of people are famous, few actually add so much value to so many people's lives. Also noteworthy is he never asked any of us for any money for the lessons he imparts.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2022, 01:17:02 PM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?
Probably not too different, I’m in the ‘and beyond’ net worth group…. But thanks for letting me gloat a bit.  I just don’t like to waste money.
Hmmm, I used to rent cars for road trips. Since newer cars tended to have better gas mileage, they usually paid for themselves in fuel savings alone. I just can't believe the outrage over this. It's not like this is even a business class upgrade, he just paid for a little extra leg room on the flight and chose a vehicle that doesn't burn fossil fuel, which is a total yawner of a non-story, IMO.

Part of Pete's appeal is that what he's preaching is replicatable by virtually anyone. If what he was selling started with, "First you find a free cave to move into..." MMM wouldn't have become the "thing" that it is. Teaching people how to make choices that vastly improve their lives is a significant contribution to society. He is not a saint and he doesn't have to be perfect. If he turned into a Kardashian tomorrow, the world would still be a better place.

I get what you are saying and hopefully my posts don't come across as though I'm outraged or anything, just a bit disappointed that this guy who has claimed for years to be impervious and even downright belligerent toward waste and luxury has finally capitulated.  Here he is in his own words in 2012 -
Quote
The answer was of course that when it comes to buying additional treats for myself, the extra money is in fact no good at all. And that was a very liberating thing to figure out. I have completely lost the desire for any more of the things money can buy than I already have, which means I have completely lost any form of envy, any sense of deprivation, or any sense of missing out on anything – no matter how many rap videos I watch or over-the-top houses I visit.

Some people would question this assertion. “Sure, Mr. Money Mustache claims to be happy living on $2000 a month, but that’s just because he’s good at fooling himself. He doesn’t even go out to restaurants several times a week! If this guy could see my new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and cruise the beach strip a few times, I could shake him out of it. I think it takes WAY MORE MONEY to be truly happy.”

But after punching that guy in the face, I’d question his questioning.  As one form of proof, I’d offer the fact that I actually do have way more money than the amount required to sustain our lifestyle while never running out, and I’m still perfectly happy not spending it on myself. We actually want to find ways to need even less over time, just because it feels like the right thing to do, and the happier thing to do.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, I recall a 'I wasted $1000 and hated it' experiment he posted about...
I'm fairly certain of two things:

Mr. Money Mustache and Mr. Hyperbole are very good friends. Mr. H was an important partner in creating an interesting persona to convey the message in a compelling way.

When Pete Adeny invented Mr. Money Mustache, he never imagined how successful his efforts would be. He also wrote the words you cited a decade ago, when his life was very different than it is today. It is blatantly unfair to examine every thing he's ever written and expect him to blindly adhere to every single word of it forever. That's not how life works. Too many moving parts.

I see absolutely no reason to be disappointed. He's a human being, not an oracle. He had a fucking brilliant idea which improved thousands of lives and continues to help the planet. That's a damn fine legacy, one that few can hope to achieve. Lots of people are famous, few actually add so much value to so many people's lives. Also noteworthy is he never asked any of us for any money for the lessons he imparts.

Not about Pete, but more philosophically, you think that more money means more spending and results in more happiness then?

I still get satisfaction from optimization, whether I'm at 3% SWR or 1% SWR...  so I am disappointed at the turn Pete has taken, whether you think I should be or not.  I'm not sure if I'll capture my reason as to why I feel this way, but if even the most hardcore of us blogs about spending money on luxuries 'just because', the environment ultimately suffers the negative externalities.  That is the real cost.  I can only vote with my own money I spend, but it sucks when someone like Pete who seems to feel the same way about luxuries posts that they have had a hard discussion with themselves and decided to 'let themselves go'.  But like I said, I still fly coach and carpool when I can (and I do believe he could carpool during his family visit, rather than drive himself around in a Tesla).

That last bit I bolded just sounds defensive.  Is he really helping the planet if the message is, "get rich then spend more because luxuries do, in fact, increase happiness"?  Just because he never asked for money I should be OK with him capitulating on his own message?

The hyperbole point I get, but I still felt that, under the hyperbole, was a bedrock message that luxuries were for consumer suckers, full stop.

mm1970

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2022, 01:31:20 PM »
Quote
The hyperbole point I get, but I still felt that, under the hyperbole, was a bedrock message that luxuries were for consumer suckers, full stop.

But are all luxuries bad for the environment?  Is a Tesla worse than a non-electric car?

What about spending more buying "luxury" locally grown produce or free range meat or dairy or eggs?  Or are those not luxuries?

"Optimization" doesn't necessarily mean "least amount of money possible", does it?  Also, even flying coach is bad for the environment.

iluvzbeach

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2022, 01:39:40 PM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I don’t feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  I’m not even retired like he is!
Hmmm, wonder how your net worths compare?
Probably not too different, I’m in the ‘and beyond’ net worth group…. But thanks for letting me gloat a bit.  I just don’t like to waste money.
Hmmm, I used to rent cars for road trips. Since newer cars tended to have better gas mileage, they usually paid for themselves in fuel savings alone. I just can't believe the outrage over this. It's not like this is even a business class upgrade, he just paid for a little extra leg room on the flight and chose a vehicle that doesn't burn fossil fuel, which is a total yawner of a non-story, IMO.

Part of Pete's appeal is that what he's preaching is replicatable by virtually anyone. If what he was selling started with, "First you find a free cave to move into..." MMM wouldn't have become the "thing" that it is. Teaching people how to make choices that vastly improve their lives is a significant contribution to society. He is not a saint and he doesn't have to be perfect. If he turned into a Kardashian tomorrow, the world would still be a better place.

I get what you are saying and hopefully my posts don't come across as though I'm outraged or anything, just a bit disappointed that this guy who has claimed for years to be impervious and even downright belligerent toward waste and luxury has finally capitulated.  Here he is in his own words in 2012 -
Quote
The answer was of course that when it comes to buying additional treats for myself, the extra money is in fact no good at all. And that was a very liberating thing to figure out. I have completely lost the desire for any more of the things money can buy than I already have, which means I have completely lost any form of envy, any sense of deprivation, or any sense of missing out on anything – no matter how many rap videos I watch or over-the-top houses I visit.

Some people would question this assertion. “Sure, Mr. Money Mustache claims to be happy living on $2000 a month, but that’s just because he’s good at fooling himself. He doesn’t even go out to restaurants several times a week! If this guy could see my new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and cruise the beach strip a few times, I could shake him out of it. I think it takes WAY MORE MONEY to be truly happy.”

But after punching that guy in the face, I’d question his questioning.  As one form of proof, I’d offer the fact that I actually do have way more money than the amount required to sustain our lifestyle while never running out, and I’m still perfectly happy not spending it on myself. We actually want to find ways to need even less over time, just because it feels like the right thing to do, and the happier thing to do.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, I recall a 'I wasted $1000 and hated it' experiment he posted about...
I'm fairly certain of two things:

Mr. Money Mustache and Mr. Hyperbole are very good friends. Mr. H was an important partner in creating an interesting persona to convey the message in a compelling way.

When Pete Adeny invented Mr. Money Mustache, he never imagined how successful his efforts would be. He also wrote the words you cited a decade ago, when his life was very different than it is today. It is blatantly unfair to examine every thing he's ever written and expect him to blindly adhere to every single word of it forever. That's not how life works. Too many moving parts.

I see absolutely no reason to be disappointed. He's a human being, not an oracle. He had a fucking brilliant idea which improved thousands of lives and continues to help the planet. That's a damn fine legacy, one that few can hope to achieve. Lots of people are famous, few actually add so much value to so many people's lives. Also noteworthy is he never asked any of us for any money for the lessons he imparts.

Thank you, Dicey. Brilliantly said.

getsorted

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2022, 02:07:59 PM »
The hyperbole point I get, but I still felt that, under the hyperbole, was a bedrock message that luxuries were for consumer suckers, full stop.

I don't think they were-- he drank beer and smoked weed, right? Luxuries were fine, unless you owed somebody money (especially if you owed MMM money)-- then you shouldn't be drinking any beer!

I think feeling that you needed the luxuries and absolutely could not do without them was more his schtick. If you felt you HAD to have a big clown car and were sacrificing your future financial security to pay for it, then you were a consumer sucker.

I always assumed that was why he didn't normally publish his year-to-year budget (apart from when it was an exceptionally low $24,000)- because he was probably buying whatever he felt like by the time he started writing the blog.

Another example would be, when the former Mrs. MMM was spending on ingredients to make soap. He never mentioned how much she spent in the hobby phase-- only that it eventually became a profitable business. Presumably, they also had spending on leisure hobbies that didn't happen to turn into profitable businesses.

I don't personally care how he spends or doesn't spend his money. Obviously, I'm here because I found some useful things in his blog, but I don't personally think the hyperbole really is very helpful; in fact, I think it's counterproductive and usually read it while rolling my eyes-- the idea that "anyone can do this" ignores the fact that he achieved what he did before having a child, had no major health issues, was able to divorce amicably, never experienced job loss, and took on substantial financial risk by not having health insurance that happened to pan out in his case, but could easily be disastrous for anyone less favored by nature or circumstance. I mean, one good car accident and the $400,000 he retired on could be in the wind. Anyone who works in an advisory capacity knows this is the nature of advice; it's rarely universally applicable.

Laura33

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2022, 03:27:24 PM »
Life is always a balance between competing goals and priorities and even philosophies.

On the one hand, I very clearly recall his discussion of Stoicism, because it is something I internalized and think about.  I remember his example of being on an airplane without food and debating whether to overpay for airport food or suck it up, and he chose to suck it up not just because of the money, but as an intentional choice to remind himself that he didn't actually need crappy airport food.  Stoicism involves intentionally choosing discomfort, because surviving that discomfort makes you stronger and healthier.  It can mean going without, like MMM did in his example, or actively choosing something that is very uncomfortable, like going to the gym and pushing yourself, or forcing yourself to take a risk and learn something new and hard.  I think we all need to push ourselves to the discomfort level sometimes, because that's the only way to learn and grow; if we don't, it's easy to become stagnant and flaccid and mentally rigid.

And yet none of us actually wants to do full-bore Stoicism all the time.  We all have our luxuries we like (like, you know, indoor plumbing and electricity).  We need enough hardship and challenge to continue to grow and strengthen our minds, but we also sometimes just need to flop in the recliner and read a book (or is that just me projecting?).  The question is just how far you push the lever.  For most of our modern society, we default to all-luxury, all the time; indeed, commercialism and hedonic adaptation often make us feel that we are behind in our luxury-seeking, and that this is a flaw that we must rectify immediately by throwing money at it.  We need a push towards intentional discomfort.  And the MMM character was designed to do that, often with a degree of hyperbole or showmanship to make the point. 

But the flip side of the MMM personality is that when we do seek to satisfy that "luxury" part of the brain, we should do it in a way that is both effective and efficient.  The first part of that is being aware of how much luxury we already have.  And then when we do spend money, we need to do it right.  Throwing it away on fancy "stuff" isn't effective once you've reached a basic level of security and comfort, because that "happiness" wears off after a while, and we need another hit of name-brand crack to keep the high going.  And when we do find something that we want to buy or do, we can often reach the same result for less money if we focus on the need we're trying to satisfy instead of the brand-name bragging and keeping-up-with-Joneses. 

For me, the "smoother/more comfortable travel experience" upgrade is a worthwhile luxury.  At this point, I have more money than time, and I am a massive bitch when I don't get sleep (I once ruined half of a European vacation because I lost the ability to sleep on a plane and was a total bitch for the first three days while my body caught up).  So for me, if I have a week planned in Europe, and I'm already devoting my valuable money and even-more-valuable time to that week, then I'm going to choose to spend more on business-class seats so that I can actually enjoy all of the time I have once I land.  [And yes, it is getting worse as I get older; both my inability to sleep in an economy-class seat and my inability to recover from the lack of sleep worsened dramatically around 50.  Luckily, my finances had also improved dramatically by that time.]

Now, I'm not Pete; I've never claimed to be a Mustachian purist, so I doubt anyone would call me a hypocrite for making that choice (lazy and entitled, yes, and you'll get no argument from me).  But does paying for extra legroom make Pete a hypocrite?  Well, remember, it's all in the balancing between the stoicism and the luxury.  I think Pete has the stoicism side of things fairly well under control; he leads a disciplined life and pushes himself regularly.  So adding a bit more temporary luxury into the mix doesn't necessary swing the meter too far to the "you're getting soft" side.  But is he doing luxury "right" -- is it effective and efficient?   Well, he's not throwing money at name brands, where the happy will fade almost instantly, and I imagine he'll enjoy the rest of the travel more if he's not cramped and uncomfortable on the flight.  So it's probably effective.  And it's a pretty cost-efficient way to achieve that goal, as extra legroom and direct flights cost a hell of a lot less than first class, and the $1K is a minuscule portion of his 'stache. 

IOW, it doesn't fit with the cartoon MMM stoicism lessons, no.  But that's because MMM isn't all about stoicism -- it's about finding the right mix of stoicism + "good" luxury that makes for a happy life.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2022, 04:05:10 PM »
I reject the notion of following MMM as though he is a Deity-like figure, where one must follow his 14 points or risk eternal damnation.  This is a guy who is sharing a system that worked for him, and encouraging people to find a way towards financial freedom.  And he is sharing his first-hand journey - good and bad, with the world online.  It is very brave to be that personal where you are sharing your net worth, the details of your marriage, and other things to that affect.

If he wants a nice plane ticket, especially in this market, let him buy it.  Maybe you would make the same choice, maybe you should make another choice.

I personally have no issue with the premium air travel, other than perhaps the climate impact.  But, I have spent many a time in a premium cabin, and generally have found it to be well worth it.  But sometimes it isn’t worth it, or sometimes my desire to be frugal carries the day.

Our world is becoming too binary.  It worries me.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2022, 05:06:31 PM »
I'm not going to push it any further, but after reading more comments, I guess I end up with what I have heard on this forum in one form or another lately-

1.  I miss the old MMM.  The one from a decade ago.  He had me questioning my defaults and ridiculing the status quo.  I miss that.  He's just not the same guy anymore in his relatively few posts.  I wish he'd have just preserved his legacy, but it's his blog and he can post whatever he likes.

2.  We are getting more spendy on this site in general, compared to how it was a decade ago.  I'm as guilty as anyone.  People could pick me to pieces on not walking my talk on environmentalism if they wanted to read my journal and take me to task, but I'm also not blogging or trying to influence others (other than when it comes to alcohol, I'm very opinionated when it comes to that).

Thanks for considering my posts and it has been interesting reading the different replies!  I especially liked what Laura33 had to say, and haven't heard from her in a while so that was a nice treat!

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2022, 06:49:06 PM »
[Snip]
I especially liked what Laura33 had to say, and haven't heard from her in a while so that was a nice treat!
Hear, hear!

big_owl

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2022, 06:09:19 AM »
If it's more than like an hour flight I always fly first class these days.  It's miserable to be packed in with the heathen in the back of the plane.  Not to mention downright painful on my joints as a taller, more athletic person.
I know, almost 95% sure, that I will have to fly to Asia some time in the next year.  I will do absolutely everything I can to not fly coach.  It's an 11.5 hour flight.  Slightly longer than the god-awful flight I took to Europe a few years ago.

It will be a work trip, and I'm 90% sure they won't pay for anything more than coach.  I don't sleep on planes, I don't have any "status" because I don't like travel enough to travel hack.

My wife and also companies I work for know if they want me to go anywhere they're paying for at least business class. Non-negotiable. If it's a puddle jump a state or two over then ok, but otherwise I want reclining seats.  And I don't want to have to stress whether there'll be room for my carry on by the time they call my boarding group. 

big_owl

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2022, 06:40:16 AM »
The hyperbole point I get, but I still felt that, under the hyperbole, was a bedrock message that luxuries were for consumer suckers, full stop.

I don't think they were-- he drank beer and smoked weed, right? Luxuries were fine, unless you owed somebody money (especially if you owed MMM money)-- then you shouldn't be drinking any beer!

I think feeling that you needed the luxuries and absolutely could not do without them was more his schtick. If you felt you HAD to have a big clown car and were sacrificing your future financial security to pay for it, then you were a consumer sucker.

I always assumed that was why he didn't normally publish his year-to-year budget (apart from when it was an exceptionally low $24,000)- because he was probably buying whatever he felt like by the time he started writing the blog.

Another example would be, when the former Mrs. MMM was spending on ingredients to make soap. He never mentioned how much she spent in the hobby phase-- only that it eventually became a profitable business. Presumably, they also had spending on leisure hobbies that didn't happen to turn into profitable businesses.

I don't personally care how he spends or doesn't spend his money. Obviously, I'm here because I found some useful things in his blog, but I don't personally think the hyperbole really is very helpful; in fact, I think it's counterproductive and usually read it while rolling my eyes-- the idea that "anyone can do this" ignores the fact that he achieved what he did before having a child, had no major health issues, was able to divorce amicably, never experienced job loss, and took on substantial financial risk by not having health insurance that happened to pan out in his case, but could easily be disastrous for anyone less favored by nature or circumstance. I mean, one good car accident and the $400,000 he retired on could be in the wind. Anyone who works in an advisory capacity knows this is the nature of advice; it's rarely universally applicable.

Frankly the health care thing really led me.to view MMM as a pompous not-very-smart person.  I give him credit for dropping the scales from my eyes that it was possible to retire early though I sort of discovered that on my own several years early.  I don't hate the guy or anything but there's not much in my life I'd want to model after him anymore. 

getsorted

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2022, 07:52:19 AM »
Frankly the health care thing really led me.to view MMM as a pompous not-very-smart person.  I give him credit for dropping the scales from my eyes that it was possible to retire early though I sort of discovered that on my own several years early.  I don't hate the guy or anything but there's not much in my life I'd want to model after him anymore.

Well, even very smart people sometimes make dumb moves. I'm sure all of us have our areas of hubris. The nature of having a personal blog is that a lot of people will be responding to what you do, for good or ill.

Being a bit bombastic when you're trying to counteract a strong cultural narrative (like unchecked status consumerism) is probably a psychological necessity to some degree. There's a lot of strong messaging floating around that people who don't drive brand-new Teslas and buy giant McMansions are worse people; I like to think part of the whole superiority-complex thing that the MMM persona was using was designed to push back on that.

But, all told, personally, I like the more nuanced MMM.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2022, 09:35:59 AM »
Quote
It's not like he chartered a plane or is flying first class, or even business class. Some of these comments are crazy harsh.

If you read his consumer sukka article and compare it to this I don’t find any contradiction. He’s demonstrating that even as a wealthy person he still is making these calculations constantly and must evaluate them internally. It’s hilarious that anybody commenting in this thread pretends they would regularly spend several hours getting to the airport with their teenage son on the way to an international flight *if they had an affordable alternative.*

However if you want an extreme environmentally focused forum you should go to Early Retirement Extreme. What you’ll find there is a bias towards people who tend to live off grid/well outside norms. As a result, the influence is smaller.

mm1970

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2022, 11:11:36 AM »
Quote
For me, the "smoother/more comfortable travel experience" upgrade is a worthwhile luxury.  At this point, I have more money than time, and I am a massive bitch when I don't get sleep (I once ruined half of a European vacation because I lost the ability to sleep on a plane and was a total bitch for the first three days while my body caught up).  So for me, if I have a week planned in Europe, and I'm already devoting my valuable money and even-more-valuable time to that week, then I'm going to choose to spend more on business-class seats so that I can actually enjoy all of the time I have once I land.  [And yes, it is getting worse as I get older; both my inability to sleep in an economy-class seat and my inability to recover from the lack of sleep worsened dramatically around 50.  Luckily, my finances had also improved dramatically by that time.]

Laura's whole post was awesome, but this right here.

I do not sleep on planes.  I made the mistake of taking a red-eye this summer and: nope.  Same with the trip to Europe several years ago.
For this reason, the 50th birthday trip to Hawaii (that was canceled due to COVID) - I specifically refused a red-eye.  I'll pay more for a non red-eye.

Thus, as I think about what "fun" vacations I'd like to take over Christmas - I'm considering Amtrak, and will 100% pay extra for sleeper cars for everyone.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2022, 12:50:39 PM »
Quote
Im around 20 years older the you @Mr. Green and some of us "old folks" actually enjoy harder more challenging things and a rougher lifestyle with more difficult adventures then we did when younger.

Love this! I think when you have your kids it’s so exhausting that yes you find yourself grasping for comforts. I’m 52 and I can easily sleep on the floor or a tent without throwing my back out. Yet 20 years ago I regularly threw my back out when I tried to camp and I struggled to find the right cushy air mattress.

I went through various sports injuries over the years and age had nothing to do with it, they were injuries that taught me lessons about how my body works and often took years to recover from. But currently I have mobility/strength/endurance/equanimity that exceeds most people much younger than me.

The only thing different about me at 30 or 40 compared to me now is that my face looked so freaking young back then lol! Oh well!

Fru-Gal

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2022, 12:55:49 PM »
Quote
Thus, as I think about what "fun" vacations I'd like to take over Christmas - I'm considering Amtrak, and will 100% pay extra for sleeper cars for everyone.

I so want to do this!!! I got to start watching the Amtrak deals.

Plina

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2022, 03:18:40 PM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.
Sounds like he's still pretty badass at 45. He's just not as badass as he was at 30. Anyone expecting that is going to be disappointed because it's not reality for basically anyone.
Of course it's a reality for some people - again me and numerous other forum members here. If people do experience lifestyle creep. or a desire for  more comfort and time, how much of that is due to having a spouse and kids? Or just middle age lifestyle demands including jobs?  There are compromises and changes that usually have to be made to accommodate those things that us single childless FIREd people don't need to make. Much of those "luxuries"  are done to make life easier for everyone and doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of badassity or need for greater comfort or luxury as you age. If you were single and childless and FIREd without having to make choices based on spouse's, kids, job, pets, etc.., then it's pretty easy to continue to live the same in your 40s, 50s and beyond as it is in your 20s and 30s. So again, not "everyone".

I am single without kids and selfemployed so I rarely need to accomodate anyone. I take the bus to the airport in the morning but if I come back with a late flight that would result in me having to wait for a bus for an hour I rather pay for a taxi home. I probably would have waited for the bus in my 20is. I also take the fast airportrain that cost three times the bus ticket when I get to the capital. I would probably not have done that in my 20ies.

I backpacked 6 months in Asia before the pandemic. I bought 1 st class tickets on most of the trains. I I stayed some nights in hostels with crappy beds. I laughed internally when I listened to 20 something kids that thought the hostel was great because they had free drinks. I upgraded myself next night to a Nice bed and breakfast because I had enough of crappy places. Some meals I ate for a dollar and others for 30 dollars. After a string of crappy hostels and a Airbnb, I spent a couple nights in a five star resort because I got cranky. I didn’t take the dollar ride with the guy on the motorcycel but instead the Uber for 2 dollars. I would have been miserable if I would have made the trip as when I was in my 20ies. I kept my budget and found a balance between cost and comfort.

Oh, and I bought a car, even though it would have been cheaper to get rides from others, taking the bus and train as well as renting, because I found it easier to own a car then to be dependent on others and deal with the logistics. During the pandemic I rented a car and drove across the country to my parents. The cost for rental, hotels and gas was probably 1600 USD instead of 50 USD for flying with bonuspoints. Talks about overpaying for the discomfort of 4 days of driving instead of a 4 hour flight and pickup at the airport but I could do it because I wanted to minimize the risk of getting covid.

I don’t follow mmm as a rule book but I rather choose to take the parts that works for me and adapt. I spend on what is important for me and minimise the expenses that are not. I pay ridiculous prices for local food because I want to support local production but I am not going to spend more the necessary on my internetconnection.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 03:24:11 PM by Plina »

Mr. Green

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2022, 04:12:53 PM »
@spartana you are likely the exception not the rule, which is awesome. Sure someone out there is more hardcore in their 40s and 50s than their 20s. I'm sure trying to do it. If you have no physical ailments at 50 that prevent you from going harder than in your 20s that is great! I still think its foolish for people to expect the the same tone from someone who is 15 years older. Of every single person I've ever known, I can think of three who were more badass in their 40s and beyond than their 20s. I would say that fits my definition of basically anyone.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 05:13:35 PM by Mr. Green »

Fru-Gal

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2022, 09:51:23 PM »
I know people who have done an amazing amount of stuff in their 70s and 80s, be it creative, adventure, business (still working part time!). Recently I was helping some old folks out with hard labor on their rural property for a few days and realized just how much they do every day as compared to our household. Even socially, they have so many more commitments — I marvel at how easily they build community wherever they go.

LightStache

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2022, 09:13:51 AM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.
Sounds like he's still pretty badass at 45. He's just not as badass as he was at 30. Anyone expecting that is going to be disappointed because it's not reality for basically anyone.
Of course it's a reality for some people - again me and numerous other forum members here. If people do experience lifestyle creep. or a desire for  more comfort and time, how much of that is due to having a spouse and kids? Or just middle age lifestyle demands including jobs?  There are compromises and changes that usually have to be made to accommodate those things that us single childless FIREd people don't need to make. Much of those "luxuries"  are done to make life easier for everyone and doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of badassity or need for greater comfort or luxury as you age. If you were single and childless and FIREd without having to make choices based on spouse's, kids, job, pets, etc.., then it's pretty easy to continue to live the same in your 40s, 50s and beyond as it is in your 20s and 30s. So again, not "everyone".

I am single without kids and selfemployed so I rarely need to accomodate anyone. I take the bus to the airport in the morning but if I come back with a late flight that would result in me having to wait for a bus for an hour I rather pay for a taxi home. I probably would have waited for the bus in my 20is. I also take the fast airportrain that cost three times the bus ticket when I get to the capital. I would probably not have done that in my 20ies.

I backpacked 6 months in Asia before the pandemic. I bought 1 st class tickets on most of the trains. I I stayed some nights in hostels with crappy beds. I laughed internally when I listened to 20 something kids that thought the hostel was great because they had free drinks. I upgraded myself next night to a Nice bed and breakfast because I had enough of crappy places. Some meals I ate for a dollar and others for 30 dollars. After a string of crappy hostels and a Airbnb, I spent a couple nights in a five star resort because I got cranky. I didn’t take the dollar ride with the guy on the motorcycel but instead the Uber for 2 dollars. I would have been miserable if I would have made the trip as when I was in my 20ies. I kept my budget and found a balance between cost and comfort.

Oh, and I bought a car, even though it would have been cheaper to get rides from others, taking the bus and train as well as renting, because I found it easier to own a car then to be dependent on others and deal with the logistics. During the pandemic I rented a car and drove across the country to my parents. The cost for rental, hotels and gas was probably 1600 USD instead of 50 USD for flying with bonuspoints. Talks about overpaying for the discomfort of 4 days of driving instead of a 4 hour flight and pickup at the airport but I could do it because I wanted to minimize the risk of getting covid.

I don’t follow mmm as a rule book but I rather choose to take the parts that works for me and adapt. I spend on what is important for me and minimise the expenses that are not. I pay ridiculous prices for local food because I want to support local production but I am not going to spend more the necessary on my internetconnection.
Sure lots of people DO upgrade their lifestyle to a greater comfort levels once they have money - which also coincides with getting older usually. I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case.

However I very strongly disagree with @Mr. Green saying "everyone" does that. In my personal experience that's not the case. I know tons of people who haven't really upgraded their lifestyle because of age or increased income as they are already living the lifestyle they want. Lots of journals on just this forum (some by people in their 40s, 50s and 60s  @Mr. Green has met or will meet soon) who continue to do the same things they did in their 20s and 30s despite the discomforts  (or who relish in the discomforts) and do even more because they are FIREed and have the time to do the 100 mile solo backpack. Or the 500 mile one. Who would rather stay at a hostel or travel via local bus rather the a fancy hotel and rental car to experience a greater range of diversity, cultures, and challenges. Sure they might be bit creaky but that doesn't mean they want a softer life. So again, not everyone.

I now plan to FIRE in my early 40s and spend at least a decade on physically challenging adventures while my body's capable.

But I've always had doubts whether I'd be happy FIREing on a middle income. It used to be a core tenet of MMM that you forgo luxuries because the happiness they create is fleeting. And while I practice some frugality and get the stoic philosophy, I've never been really satisfied doing it.

This also comes at a particularly bad time because a classic car that I've been lusting after for over 20 years came to auction a month ago and I'm still mourning its loss.

So this thread makes me doubt whether a middle income FIRE spend is sustainable for me long term. While I think I'll keep my nose to the grindstone for now (I actually can't dip below a 33% savings rate because I setup a pension that requires annual funding for a few more years), it looks like my planned FIRE date might have to become a coastFIRE date.

Ironically, for a blog post that's discouraging OMY, it's causing me to do the opposite. Eventually I'll still be a "new Mustachian," which I guess is just a VHNWI who doesn't work and cares about the environment. It's just a bummer to have my RE date continue to slip right because I really don't like corporate life.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 09:16:17 AM by LightStache »

Plina

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2022, 11:39:35 PM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.
Sounds like he's still pretty badass at 45. He's just not as badass as he was at 30. Anyone expecting that is going to be disappointed because it's not reality for basically anyone.
Of course it's a reality for some people - again me and numerous other forum members here. If people do experience lifestyle creep. or a desire for  more comfort and time, how much of that is due to having a spouse and kids? Or just middle age lifestyle demands including jobs?  There are compromises and changes that usually have to be made to accommodate those things that us single childless FIREd people don't need to make. Much of those "luxuries"  are done to make life easier for everyone and doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of badassity or need for greater comfort or luxury as you age. If you were single and childless and FIREd without having to make choices based on spouse's, kids, job, pets, etc.., then it's pretty easy to continue to live the same in your 40s, 50s and beyond as it is in your 20s and 30s. So again, not "everyone".

I am single without kids and selfemployed so I rarely need to accomodate anyone. I take the bus to the airport in the morning but if I come back with a late flight that would result in me having to wait for a bus for an hour I rather pay for a taxi home. I probably would have waited for the bus in my 20is. I also take the fast airportrain that cost three times the bus ticket when I get to the capital. I would probably not have done that in my 20ies.

I backpacked 6 months in Asia before the pandemic. I bought 1 st class tickets on most of the trains. I I stayed some nights in hostels with crappy beds. I laughed internally when I listened to 20 something kids that thought the hostel was great because they had free drinks. I upgraded myself next night to a Nice bed and breakfast because I had enough of crappy places. Some meals I ate for a dollar and others for 30 dollars. After a string of crappy hostels and a Airbnb, I spent a couple nights in a five star resort because I got cranky. I didn’t take the dollar ride with the guy on the motorcycel but instead the Uber for 2 dollars. I would have been miserable if I would have made the trip as when I was in my 20ies. I kept my budget and found a balance between cost and comfort.

Oh, and I bought a car, even though it would have been cheaper to get rides from others, taking the bus and train as well as renting, because I found it easier to own a car then to be dependent on others and deal with the logistics. During the pandemic I rented a car and drove across the country to my parents. The cost for rental, hotels and gas was probably 1600 USD instead of 50 USD for flying with bonuspoints. Talks about overpaying for the discomfort of 4 days of driving instead of a 4 hour flight and pickup at the airport but I could do it because I wanted to minimize the risk of getting covid.

I don’t follow mmm as a rule book but I rather choose to take the parts that works for me and adapt. I spend on what is important for me and minimise the expenses that are not. I pay ridiculous prices for local food because I want to support local production but I am not going to spend more the necessary on my internetconnection.
Sure lots of people DO upgrade their lifestyle to a greater comfort levels once they have money - which also coincides with getting older usually. I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case.

However I very strongly disagree with @Mr. Green saying "everyone" does that. In my personal experience that's not the case. I know tons of people who haven't really upgraded their lifestyle because of age or increased income as they are already living the lifestyle they want. Lots of journals on just this forum (some by people in their 40s, 50s and 60s  @Mr. Green has met or will meet soon) who continue to do the same things they did in their 20s and 30s despite the discomforts  (or who relish in the discomforts) and do even more because they are FIREed and have the time to do the 100 mile solo backpack. Or the 500 mile one. Who would rather stay at a hostel or travel via local bus rather the a fancy hotel and rental car to experience a greater range of diversity, cultures, and challenges. Sure they might be bit creaky but that doesn't mean they want a softer life. So again, not everyone.

I think the difference is in what we see as a lifestyle upgrade. If you like hiking, why would you stop doing it when you are older if you don’t need to due to health reasons?. Most of the people I know might upgrade their equipment in that case. I do triathlons were the sky is the limits for costs. Most of the people that continue doing long distance triathlons are not looking for a softer lifestyle. Those that don’t have the mental stamina leave it.

Personally, I don’t see rental cars as an upgrade when touristing. It is much easier with public transport at least outside of US but I prefer decent hotels in central locations.

jim555

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2022, 02:55:07 AM »
I read the article.  He has a point.  I see many people on FI forums who have way over what they could possibly spend, and they flat out ignore Social Security.  They end up wasting years of life on OMYs for no reason at all.  I read about people who "need" $150K in retirement spending which to me is absolutely an absurd amount of money.  That could easily be cut WAY down without much effort.  I get it, planning for worst case, but planning that way has a cost, your most precious commodity, time.

He is using the extravagant spending to illustrate the point that you are probably really safe .
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 07:03:13 AM by jim555 »

ixtap

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2022, 10:08:24 AM »
We are impatient and can park for free three miles from the airport. We hoof it.  It all started on a busy evening when it was going to be an hour wait and $80 to take a Lyft, but we decided it isn't so bad and now we walk as a matter of course.

But the money we spend on the other end has certainly gone up!

Mr. Green

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2022, 08:11:11 PM »
What I meant and how it's being interpreted are not matching up. I'm not the clearest writer at times. I think there is a difference between things people "upgrade" because they've become older and their bodies are not as resilient as they once were, and true lifestyle inflation. Could I have made my 65 year old mother fly coach across the country with me for my (probably once in a lifetime) hip surgery? Sure! Would it have been very uncomfortable for her? Significantly more so than for me, who is almost 30 years younger. So we flew first class.

I wasn't thinking of things that people choose to upgrade so much as they feel compelled to because the alternative just isn't tolerable anymore. Could be as simple as a thicker shirt on that long-distance hike or more leg room on a cross country flight. I suppose frequency comes into play as well.

Perhaps I was more unassuming than others while reading his post. He could be flying first class for the hell of it and it's pure lifestyle inflation. I just thought of the aging aspect and think it's a real consideration people should have, one that isn't lifestyle inflation the way we think of it, and that's where my mind went.

There are clearly some folks here this has not been an issue for, but I still believe this will be something the vast majority of MMM readers encounter. So his post came across to me as more of a natural aging of a persona, vs. the perpetually popping wheelies on his bike in the snow, early-30s MMM I tend to think of. And I think that's a good thing overall.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 06:54:27 AM by Mr. Green »

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2022, 09:18:01 AM »
^^^ I totally agree that the aging aspect, as well as the lifestyle aspects, should be a factor when deciding when to FIRE and on how much. Even if you are still popping wheelies in the snow at 60 you might want a fancier bike ;-). Choosing to work longer because you may want more luxuries or more comforts, or deciding to quit earlier and forego those things (currently and in the future) in lieu of greater freedom while younger, is going to be a very individual thing for each person.  And I think it's important that you brought that up as a lot of people probably don't think about that.

My beef is the "everyone" comment. I just don't believe that. I don't even believe it's the majority. I've known so many older people who just don't fit into that so I never assume that, barring disability, injury or illness, the average healthy 50 or 60 or older persons going to have issues. I LOLed at your example of you believing your mom would be uncomfortable flying coach class as my mom was flying long distance solo in her late 70s to travel for a few months a year to places like China, Russia, New Zealand, the Middle East, South America, etc.. Long long flights, as well as long distance overland travel, walking etc.  with no more discomfort then the average person would have.  So I think maybe your mom would have been fine. I can go on with a long list of old people I know or are related to who are doing even more extreme things.

So it's not always the case that you need to work longer and save more to buy greater comfort in your old age. If MMM hadn't had his blog income and just lived off his original FIRE stash I'm pretty sure he would be happily flying coach (and popping wheelies ;-)) well into his old age with little discomforts. I'm sort of living the life original recipe OG MMM would likely have if he wasn't a rich blogger. Just a middle aged (old???) person living on a modest amount of stash doing the same stuff they did when first FIREd and no desire or need to change anything. Especially not go back to work longer so I can afford to buy avocado toast in the future ;-). Noooooo...
Spatana, this is [mostly] a great post! May I please point out that he is still flying coach? All he did was pay for  little extra legroom, which is in the front of the COACH section. Geez, it's not even business class! For that matter, what he chose to pay extra for is merely the legroom that all coach passengers used to enjoy before the airlines squeezed in more seats.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2022, 09:30:37 AM »
-snip-
 For that matter, what he chose to pay extra for is merely the legroom that all coach passengers used to enjoy before the airlines squeezed in more seats.

Hopping up on my high horse real quick...  Like shrinkflation, consumers should not reward companies by paying the same to get less!!  Or, in this case, pay more just to get what you used to get...  I vote with my wallet.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 09:32:34 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2022, 10:54:59 AM »
-snip-
 For that matter, what he chose to pay extra for is merely the legroom that all coach passengers used to enjoy before the airlines squeezed in more seats.

Hopping up on my high horse real quick...  Like shrinkflation, consumers should not reward companies by paying the same to get less!!  Or, in this case, pay more just to get what you used to get...  I vote with my wallet.
Yeah, I'm voting with my wallet, too. Pretty sure no one's listening, lol.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2022, 01:46:03 PM »
-snip-
 For that matter, what he chose to pay extra for is merely the legroom that all coach passengers used to enjoy before the airlines squeezed in more seats.

Hopping up on my high horse real quick...  Like shrinkflation, consumers should not reward companies by paying the same to get less!!  Or, in this case, pay more just to get what you used to get...  I vote with my wallet.
Yeah, I'm voting with my wallet, too. Pretty sure no one's listening, lol.

We can but hope, if enough consumers do Mustachian things like buying high mpg (or high mpg equivalent) cars, biking, skipping drive throughs, etc...  I just have to believe that contributing to the solution is better than the alternative!  Even better that it gets you to FI sooner and makes you more badass in your old age so you can enjoy that FI longer!

lifeisshort123

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2022, 03:16:16 PM »
On some level, consumers are starting to fight back, by buying less.

The problem is, sometimes, like today, you find out you need a new A/C coil, and you are stuck.  You really do “need” it where I live.  The fact that prices have gone way up, that’s what you have to do.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2022, 08:22:08 PM »
Some of your points in support of his epilogue decision echo the quotes of the "critics" he was trying to address in this article:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

This 2011 piece and the epilogue from yesterday seem at odds.

Not really. One is meant for people who are pre-FIRE. If you buy the expensive vacation, it means you need to spend more time in the desk at the job you don't like.

The other post is for those on the other side. After someone quits and no longer has to go back to their desk job that they don't like, the cost doesn't matter unless the cost is so expensive that it might make you go back to your desk job. Both preach freedom, but from different angles. 

Plina

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2022, 01:22:22 PM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.
Sounds like he's still pretty badass at 45. He's just not as badass as he was at 30. Anyone expecting that is going to be disappointed because it's not reality for basically anyone.
Of course it's a reality for some people - again me and numerous other forum members here. If people do experience lifestyle creep. or a desire for  more comfort and time, how much of that is due to having a spouse and kids? Or just middle age lifestyle demands including jobs?  There are compromises and changes that usually have to be made to accommodate those things that us single childless FIREd people don't need to make. Much of those "luxuries"  are done to make life easier for everyone and doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of badassity or need for greater comfort or luxury as you age. If you were single and childless and FIREd without having to make choices based on spouse's, kids, job, pets, etc.., then it's pretty easy to continue to live the same in your 40s, 50s and beyond as it is in your 20s and 30s. So again, not "everyone".

I am single without kids and selfemployed so I rarely need to accomodate anyone. I take the bus to the airport in the morning but if I come back with a late flight that would result in me having to wait for a bus for an hour I rather pay for a taxi home. I probably would have waited for the bus in my 20is. I also take the fast airportrain that cost three times the bus ticket when I get to the capital. I would probably not have done that in my 20ies.

I backpacked 6 months in Asia before the pandemic. I bought 1 st class tickets on most of the trains. I I stayed some nights in hostels with crappy beds. I laughed internally when I listened to 20 something kids that thought the hostel was great because they had free drinks. I upgraded myself next night to a Nice bed and breakfast because I had enough of crappy places. Some meals I ate for a dollar and others for 30 dollars. After a string of crappy hostels and a Airbnb, I spent a couple nights in a five star resort because I got cranky. I didn’t take the dollar ride with the guy on the motorcycel but instead the Uber for 2 dollars. I would have been miserable if I would have made the trip as when I was in my 20ies. I kept my budget and found a balance between cost and comfort.

Oh, and I bought a car, even though it would have been cheaper to get rides from others, taking the bus and train as well as renting, because I found it easier to own a car then to be dependent on others and deal with the logistics. During the pandemic I rented a car and drove across the country to my parents. The cost for rental, hotels and gas was probably 1600 USD instead of 50 USD for flying with bonuspoints. Talks about overpaying for the discomfort of 4 days of driving instead of a 4 hour flight and pickup at the airport but I could do it because I wanted to minimize the risk of getting covid.

I don’t follow mmm as a rule book but I rather choose to take the parts that works for me and adapt. I spend on what is important for me and minimise the expenses that are not. I pay ridiculous prices for local food because I want to support local production but I am not going to spend more the necessary on my internetconnection.
Sure lots of people DO upgrade their lifestyle to a greater comfort levels once they have money - which also coincides with getting older usually. I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case.

However I very strongly disagree with @Mr. Green saying "everyone" does that. In my personal experience that's not the case. I know tons of people who haven't really upgraded their lifestyle because of age or increased income as they are already living the lifestyle they want. Lots of journals on just this forum (some by people in their 40s, 50s and 60s  @Mr. Green has met or will meet soon) who continue to do the same things they did in their 20s and 30s despite the discomforts  (or who relish in the discomforts) and do even more because they are FIREed and have the time to do the 100 mile solo backpack. Or the 500 mile one. Who would rather stay at a hostel or travel via local bus rather the a fancy hotel and rental car to experience a greater range of diversity, cultures, and challenges. Sure they might be bit creaky but that doesn't mean they want a softer life. So again, not everyone.

I think the difference is in what we see as a lifestyle upgrade. If you like hiking, why would you stop doing it when you are older if you don’t need to due to health reasons?. Most of the people I know might upgrade their equipment in that case. I do triathlons were the sky is the limits for costs. Most of the people that continue doing long distance triathlons are not looking for a softer lifestyle. Those that don’t have the mental stamina leave it.

Personally, I don’t see rental cars as an upgrade when touristing. It is much easier with public transport at least outside of US but I prefer decent hotels in central locations.
I agree. But how many people in their 20s and 30s would upgrade their lifestyle if they had the money to do it? Lots of big consumer debt in the younger (non-mustachian) crowd to have certain luxury things and a more upscale lifestyle. So more likely a function of having money rather then seeking greater comfort due to aging. Although I'm sure for many people they ARE upgrading for comfort reasons. Just, you know, not "everyone" ;-).

I DO upgrade some things myself  - I mean I'm not exactly living in a cave - but they aren't really any different then what I did when I was younger. Some, like staying at motels, eating in restaurants, fancier vacations, fancy clothes, cars, bigger house, etc,  I really don't do at all now because I just don't like them. Although I do like short term monthly apt or airbnb as an alternative when travelling and camping isn't an option. And I do get monthly car rentals often for long road trips because I have a dog and it makes it easier on her then riding on my bike or backpack (she's not a mustashian at all ;-)).   I think there are lots of people here like me that choose to downgrade rather then upgrade. Or when they do upgrade, like MMM,  its generally to make things less of a hassle (like paying extra for a non-stop flight - something most people would likely do if they have the money) and not huge lifestyle changes.

I did upgrade after university but after some years I downgraded again in certain non important areas. I still buy quality clothes that last. There is nothing as annoying to needing to replace things after a short period but I buy less. I realised today that my goretex jacket that have reached end of life have to more then 10 years old so my spendypants years was not totally wasted. Cost per use is pretty low after all these years even if it was expensive to buy. I have never been a big fan of takeout so I eat in restaurants when I travel or with friends. I also rather pay for good food instead of crappy fast food. I think americans have a different mindset when it comes to houses then in the nordics. You don’t buy starter homes and then upgrade. You rather buy an apartments when you are younger and if you want to have a house you by it more for life then for a couple of years.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2022, 06:13:00 PM »
^^^The concept of a starter home has always been weird to me. It does seem like it's an american concept and my parents (German Mom and first generation Swedish-American Dad) just bought one small house and never upgraded. I've downgraded myself going smaller once I didn't have pets - or not as many pets - and was FIREd and not working. But I can see that for many people having a bunch of kids or wanting a better location would mean they'd upgrade from a smaller house. American move a lot and fairly long distance just within their own country too so that may factor in to the constant upgrading.

Another part is the Pre 1997 tax laws that only allowed for paying no capital gains on a home so long as you bought a more expensive home.  I still had to explain that to my Mom in 2017 when I was buying my last house.  The last home they bought was in 1982.  She thought I was giving the government tax money by buying a cheaper and smaller home.  (I was under the 250k gain so nope).

Plina

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2022, 05:39:33 AM »
^^^The concept of a starter home has always been weird to me. It does seem like it's an american concept and my parents (German Mom and first generation Swedish-American Dad) just bought one small house and never upgraded. I've downgraded myself going smaller once I didn't have pets - or not as many pets - and was FIREd and not working. But I can see that for many people having a bunch of kids or wanting a better location would mean they'd upgrade from a smaller house. American move a lot and fairly long distance just within their own country too so that may factor in to the constant upgrading.

Bottom line is that most people (even simple living minimalists like me) like a few nice things and creature comforts and are willing to pay for them. Even harder core MMM. Personally I'd never pay an extra thousand buck to gain a few hours of comfort on a plane but I'd happily pay a few hundred bucks for a month-long car rental upgrade for something more comfortable.

I know people who upgrade when they move from bigger cities to smaller ones with cheaper housing. A house here cost the same as a two room apartment in the last city where I lived. It is like a house or apartment sale. So in a year or two I will probably upgrade to a small house or larger one with some rental apartments to pay my bills. I want a yard.

Enough

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2022, 08:46:59 AM »
So yes he has the money to spend and he should enjoy it and spend it, but I hate the non-equivalent comparison.

When it comes to other people spending vs saving money, he takes into account the opportunity cost of not investing that money and compounding (at 8%):

Quote
dropped her annual expenses by over $500 per month, or six thousand dollars per year. And she will of course invest these savings, which will then compound to about to about $86,000 every ten years.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/08/22/1000-per-hour/

But when its himself, spending an extra $1k/yr over 50 years just $50k instead of $571,475.08! if he assumed the same investment and compounding at 8%:

Quote
Why? Because the difference between the cheapest and most stressful trip, and the most expensive one in this case, is only about one thousand dollars.

Even if I did this every single year for the rest of my life, I’d blow $50,000 on luxurious trips to visit my family (and I could drive my Mom to her 125th birthday in style!)

And based on my own worst-case spreadsheet, I am never going to wake up and think,

 “Damn, if I just had one thousand more dollars, or even fifty thousand dollars more in this net worth column, I’d be a happier person”
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/07/18/never-run-out-of-money/

LD_TAndK

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2022, 06:12:23 AM »
Definitely don't enjoy the softening in message, even if it is a natural progression as we age and completely financially responsible.

The special spark that made this blog worthwhile to me was frugal badassity. There's a thousand other blogs where you can get a Live Below Your Means message and feel justified in small luxury expenditures.

I want someone to challenge my assumptions and suggest I do crazy shit like spraying myself with water to avoid AC usage.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2022, 09:38:32 AM »
Our bodies do become less resilient as we age (I'm talking 60s, 70s, 80s here).  But that doesn't mean we can't still be "badass" in other ways.  What I have still happening my life as a result of MMM is really examining what I need/want versus what is a passing whim.  Examining what matters a lot to me versus what doesn't matter much at all.  In other words, the real result of MMM is learning to examine our own priorities instead of letting society (really advertisers) determine our priorities.

Which is why I now own a baby SUV (Mazda CX3) - my creaky knees really appreciate getting in and out of a higher seat. Which means I am no  longer dreaming of owning a Mazda Miata, sigh.    ;-)    I aged out of that dream.

Similarly, I laughed when DD told me I was still living like a University student - because I didn't bother with luxuries I could technically afford but didn't really care about.  But I'm not living like a University student - back then (especially as a grad student) I really had a super tight budget, now I just can't be bothered with a bunch of things becasue I know for me they are just a waste of money.  I have trained myself well.    ;-)

mm1970

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #96 on: September 07, 2022, 10:52:27 AM »
So yes he has the money to spend and he should enjoy it and spend it, but I hate the non-equivalent comparison.

When it comes to other people spending vs saving money, he takes into account the opportunity cost of not investing that money and compounding (at 8%):

Quote
dropped her annual expenses by over $500 per month, or six thousand dollars per year. And she will of course invest these savings, which will then compound to about to about $86,000 every ten years.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/08/22/1000-per-hour/

But when its himself, spending an extra $1k/yr over 50 years just $50k instead of $571,475.08! if he assumed the same investment and compounding at 8%:

Quote
Why? Because the difference between the cheapest and most stressful trip, and the most expensive one in this case, is only about one thousand dollars.

Even if I did this every single year for the rest of my life, I’d blow $50,000 on luxurious trips to visit my family (and I could drive my Mom to her 125th birthday in style!)

And based on my own worst-case spreadsheet, I am never going to wake up and think,

 “Damn, if I just had one thousand more dollars, or even fifty thousand dollars more in this net worth column, I’d be a happier person”
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/07/18/never-run-out-of-money/
1. Person #1 asked for his help.  I know no other details than that, like their NW or income or age.
2. Do you think MMM is gonna live 50 more years?  Possibly, but the numbers aren't with him (biking and lifting aside).
- Also, $571k is what percentage of his current/ future net worth?
I mean, I don't know his NW, but let's say it's $4M, what do you get after 50 years at 8%?

These things matter.

Laura33

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2022, 09:58:06 AM »
So yes he has the money to spend and he should enjoy it and spend it, but I hate the non-equivalent comparison.

When it comes to other people spending vs saving money, he takes into account the opportunity cost of not investing that money and compounding (at 8%):

Quote
dropped her annual expenses by over $500 per month, or six thousand dollars per year. And she will of course invest these savings, which will then compound to about to about $86,000 every ten years.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/08/22/1000-per-hour/

But when its himself, spending an extra $1k/yr over 50 years just $50k instead of $571,475.08! if he assumed the same investment and compounding at 8%:

Quote
Why? Because the difference between the cheapest and most stressful trip, and the most expensive one in this case, is only about one thousand dollars.

Even if I did this every single year for the rest of my life, I’d blow $50,000 on luxurious trips to visit my family (and I could drive my Mom to her 125th birthday in style!)

And based on my own worst-case spreadsheet, I am never going to wake up and think,

 “Damn, if I just had one thousand more dollars, or even fifty thousand dollars more in this net worth column, I’d be a happier person”
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/07/18/never-run-out-of-money/
1. Person #1 asked for his help.  I know no other details than that, like their NW or income or age.
2. Do you think MMM is gonna live 50 more years?  Possibly, but the numbers aren't with him (biking and lifting aside).
- Also, $571k is what percentage of his current/ future net worth?
I mean, I don't know his NW, but let's say it's $4M, what do you get after 50 years at 8%?

These things matter.

And isn't this really part of knowing what is "enough"?  We talk about this all the time with respect to commercial goods, and we talk about it with folks dealing with OMY syndrome.  But it applies just as strongly here.  When you are already happily FIRE'd with more money than you would ever need, an extra half-million bucks in 50 years is freaking meaningless -- it improves your life not one teensy diddly squat.  So what is the value in accumulation for accumulation's sake? 

I strongly agree that you need a different analysis pre-FIRE and post-FIRE.  Pre-FIRE, an extra $500/yr savings can literally buy your freedom months or even years earlier.  But post-FIRE, you've already achieved that freedom.  So the only remaining questions are (a) are you living the life you want, consistent with your values and interests, and (b) is that life still within your means?  It's about getting the most value out of what you have.  And sometimes a small* indulgence brings more value than more money for Future You ever could.**


*No, objectively, $1K itself is not "small."  But relative to Pete's NW it's entirely irrelevant. 

**Yeah, I'm probably over-sensitized on this one, but I am older and facing the prospect that some of my future plans may be physically beyond me if I leave them too much in the future.  Nothing bad, but the aches and pains and longer recovery times are making me feel likely future constraints in a very real way.  I just got back from an international trip, and I am hurting from the travel -- and that was with business class (Condor airlines, so price was normal-airlines economy, but still).  I have saved my whole life, always placed the future ahead of the now, and that has put me at a place where I need to carpe me some diem while my body can still manage it.  So, yeah, I totally feel the value in nonstop flights and more legroom, because I know up close and personal how not having those things puts a major crimp in my ability to enjoy a trip. 

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2022, 07:27:41 AM »
^^I read this with the screen blown up so I couldn't see the author.^^

I was nodding along, so I shrunk the screen to find out who was stringing these pearls of wisdom. Of course it was you,  @Laura33! Lol at "carpe me some diem." Totally stealing that.

Random thought, not directed at L33: how long after the event that triggered this thread is over will it still be dissected here? Let it go...

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2022, 09:21:46 AM »
I wonder if the Mr Money Mustache that appears in Netflix's 'Get Smart With Money' is the facepunch the clown car owner MMM or the pinkie in the air premium air travel and Tesla renting MMM?