Author Topic: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?  (Read 10956 times)

LightStache

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Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« on: July 21, 2022, 10:45:14 AM »
As someone who typically flies in economy plus or first class, I thought of myself as "Mustachian Light." But the latest from MMM suggests his philosophy is evolving closer to mine:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/07/18/never-run-out-of-money/

Buying premium airfare strikes me as inconsistent with his earlier philosophy suggesting that you should embrace riding your bike through the winter. What do you think?

theninthwall

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2022, 10:50:32 AM »
If you were still in the position of trying to achieve financial independence, then sure. But he's already achieved that (several times over one would have to guess). So he can then look at the numbers, and if the cost of these things doesn't blow his budget under his safe returns, and he values them, then I don't see the issue.

uniwelder

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2022, 11:30:00 AM »
I was a bit disappointed to read the ending of MMM's latest blog post.  I can certainly understand for the $1,000 difference in cost, in his financial position, but I look to him to 'be better'.  I wonder what the $/hr breakdown that $1,000 was worth--- would it have been an extra 5 hours for each of them, so $100/hour to be more comfortable?  Perhaps spend that extra cash in private, rather than shout the message---  "The correct answer is ďShut up, Mustache! You should do whatever you think is most fun and least stressful, without thinking about the money.Ē

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2022, 11:32:42 AM »
As someone who typically flies in economy plus or first class, I thought of myself as "Mustachian Light." But the latest from MMM suggests his philosophy is evolving closer to mine:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/07/18/never-run-out-of-money/
Buying premium airfare strikes me as inconsistent with his earlier philosophy suggesting that you should embrace riding your bike through the winter. What do you think?
It seems he is following a path similar to Dave Ramsey's "live like no else so you can live like no one else." Biking in the winter so that later you can fly in economy plus may not be the trade off I would do, but to each his own.

wageslave23

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2022, 12:29:30 PM »
I love it.  Make money your b*tch.  What else would you have him spend his money on?  He earned it and he doesn't really work anymore so its not like he's chained to a job in order to pay for these little luxuries. 

mm1970

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2022, 01:46:43 PM »
As someone who typically flies in economy plus or first class, I thought of myself as "Mustachian Light." But the latest from MMM suggests his philosophy is evolving closer to mine:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/07/18/never-run-out-of-money/

Buying premium airfare strikes me as inconsistent with his earlier philosophy suggesting that you should embrace riding your bike through the winter. What do you think?
I don't know if premium airfare (aka Economy plus) is any less mustachian than choosing flights by time/ convenience/ days.

You know, red-eye vs daytime, early morning flight vs midday, Weds vs weekend days, long layover vs short, through Chicago vs. through NYC, direct vs 3 flights

Etc.
That's the kind of calculus we do whenever we fly - which is thankfully not often.

Is it ONLY mustachian to get only the very cheapest flights (including transp to + from the airport, parking, etc)?
Is it ONLY mustachian to only pack your own food and never eat airplane or airport food?


LightStache

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2022, 04:36:21 PM »
Some of your points in support of his epilogue decision echo the quotes of the "critics" he was trying to address in this article:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

This 2011 piece and the epilogue from yesterday seem at odds.

Cranky

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2022, 04:57:56 PM »
I donít care how much his plane ticket costs, but Iíd be impressed if he refused to fly.

RedmondStash

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 06:52:44 PM »
I think I'm more interested in applying the principles I learned from MMM that work for me to my own life than in judging how he lives his own life.

Srsly, if you've benefited from what you've learned from him, what difference does it make? How is it anyone's business how he spends his $$?

RFAAOATB

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2022, 06:57:33 PM »
Reading that article on worst case scenarios to lose all your money ignores the most likely worst case scenario: you decide to increase your spending to upper middle class levels on a lower middle class income.  That will get you poor faster and easier than waiting for the government and stock market to collapse.  Premium airfare, frequent hotels, restaurants and cruises are a good way to deplete a million dollars over a few years.

sonofsven

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 07:58:17 PM »
I'd do it too but I'm too cheap ;-)

uniwelder

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2022, 06:27:24 AM »
I think I'm more interested in applying the principles I learned from MMM that work for me to my own life than in judging how he lives his own life.

Srsly, if you've benefited from what you've learned from him, what difference does it make? How is it anyone's business how he spends his $$?

MrMoneyMustache is an internet personality versus the real life Pete Adeney.  I don't really care as much what Pete Adeney does with his money since it is relatively trivial, but when MMM succumbs to hedonic adaptation, as LightStache is pointing out, it doesn't bode well for the message that he had been trying to push for so many years.

chemistk

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2022, 07:20:04 AM »
First - on the topic of the two case studies he's decided to pull out - I think they're kind of tone-deaf at this point. The people who are seeking the blog aren't a 50-year old doctor with a grown child wondering if she can retire early. The people who (at least I imagine) are seeking the blog are 20-something's who are done with the cutthroat tech culture and 30-somethings with a house and kids who just want to stop having to schlep to the office anymore.

Moreover, his friend, with whom he has been renovating an investment house, lives in a desirable area to travel and as far as I can tell doesn't have a very demanding personal or professional life. His lifestyle is certainly valid and even desirable but it doesn't reflect the reality of the typical person wondering how they can escape a toxic work culture.

I think I'm more interested in applying the principles I learned from MMM that work for me to my own life than in judging how he lives his own life.

Srsly, if you've benefited from what you've learned from him, what difference does it make? How is it anyone's business how he spends his $$?

MrMoneyMustache is an internet personality versus the real life Pete Adeney.  I don't really care as much what Pete Adeney does with his money since it is relatively trivial, but when MMM succumbs to hedonic adaptation, as LightStache is pointing out, it doesn't bode well for the message that he had been trying to push for so many years.

I very much agree. Sure he rented a Tesla, and we all know (from the blog) that the annual trips to Canada happen for him regardless of what people think of them, but it does seem to be quite a far cry from one particularly memorable post where he drove cross-country in his minivan with no A/C with all the luggage while his then-wife and son flew out. That, to me, was more emblematic of the Pete/MMM dichotomy. He paid plenty for the airfare then, but chose to document how it would be possible to travel without flying and being able to bring weeks' worth of luggage.

At this point, I think it might be time for him to retire the MMM persona and adopt a new moniker that reflects his (rightly earned) status as a well-funded early retiree.

uniwelder

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2022, 07:52:25 AM »
Chemistk worded it quite well. Thanks

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2022, 08:06:16 AM »
First - on the topic of the two case studies he's decided to pull out - I think they're kind of tone-deaf at this point. The people who are seeking the blog aren't a 50-year old doctor with a grown child wondering if she can retire early. The people who (at least I imagine) are seeking the blog are 20-something's who are done with the cutthroat tech culture and 30-somethings with a house and kids who just want to stop having to schlep to the office anymore.

Hammer, meets nail, smashes head.

I have a much bigger issue with the examples he tried to use to make his point than the fact that he's being a little wasteful. If you consider how much of an impact his message has made by likely influencing thousands or tens of thousands of people to reduce consumption and therefor make a positive impact on the planet, he gets a pass from me.

The guy is also a multi millionaire with a semipassive business that still earns him multiples of his current spending, you can't take it with you ;)

FIRE@50

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2022, 07:13:18 PM »
His vacation plans are definitely not classically Mustachian but using your expendable cash on fun "luxuries" for yourself and family are absolutely healthy and should be encouraged.

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2022, 10:07:49 PM »
It's not like he chartered a plane or is flying first class, or even business class. Some of these comments are crazy harsh.

Cassie

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2022, 10:43:38 PM »
His premise is sound and has helped many people. I have no problem with him enjoying some of his money.

PDXTabs

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2022, 11:09:45 PM »
It's not like he chartered a plane or is flying first class, or even business class. Some of these comments are crazy harsh.

I concur. Along those lines even if he had bought the first class tickets, is the world a worse place? The private plane would mean more carbon emissions, but the first class seats change nothing.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2022, 01:00:57 PM »
It's not like he chartered a plane or is flying first class, or even business class. Some of these comments are crazy harsh.

I concur. Along those lines even if he had bought the first class tickets, is the world a worse place? The private plane would mean more carbon emissions, but the first class seats change nothing.

It doesn't matter because they were business expenses and not part of his personal spending, so probably stilling living way below $250k $25k per year.  😂🤣😂🤣

But seriously, I FIREd 3 years ago and still worry moderately about running out of money later, although I am not in the 2.5% wr or property owner that theoughs off 2x living expenses, so there that, and 3 school age kids rapidly approaching college.   🤔
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 01:04:34 PM by tooqk4u22 »

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2022, 04:50:26 PM »
It's not like he chartered a plane or is flying first class, or even business class. Some of these comments are crazy harsh.

I concur. Along those lines even if he had bought the first class tickets, is the world a worse place? The private plane would mean more carbon emissions, but the first class seats change nothing.

It doesn't matter because they were business expenses and not part of his personal spending, so probably stilling living way below $250k $25k per year.  😂🤣😂🤣

But seriously, I FIREd 3 years ago and still worry moderately about running out of money later, although I am not in the 2.5% wr or property owner that theoughs off 2x living expenses, so there that, and 3 school age kids rapidly approaching college.   🤔
Aren't all school age children rapidly approaching college? Oh, wait. They have to learn to drive first. Fun times ahead.

ender

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2022, 04:56:26 PM »
His vacation plans are definitely not classically Mustachian but using your expendable cash on fun "luxuries" for yourself and family are absolutely healthy and should be encouraged.

I'm not sure that this mantra from the blog itself:

Quote
Blah blah blah. The correct answer is ďShut up, Mustache! You should do whatever you think is most fun and least stressful, without thinking about the money.Ē

is remotely compatible with some of the initial premises he started the entire MMM blog with around hedonistic adaption, etc.

But that being said, for him, given his timeline for FIRE, income recently, etc? This decision is frankly trivial from a financial perspective.

Mr. Green

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2022, 07:09:19 AM »
I think his post is fantastic. It accurately reflects the true nature of aging. In our 20s it's easy to adopt a motto of austerity. Backpack across Europe staying in hostels, crash on a friend's couch for a week, drive across the country without A/C, etc. In our 30s we start to soften. Mental and physical discomfort become less tolerable and it is a fight to keep that rubberband stretched out. I feel this keenly now, about to turn 39, and trying to figure out how to keep my nomadic travel lifestyle alive while realizing there are certain things my wife and I just won't tolerate anymore. MMM is now in his mid-40s. Age is constantly going to be putting pressure on that tolerance rubberband to tighten up and he is succumbing to that just a little bit. And that's awesome, because he is modeling exactly what happens to everyone else. I understand a new reader might not realize that but he does point out that he's older.

If you become a multi-millionaire and at 45 you're still willing scrimp on some once yearly travel comforts to save $1,000 then you are truly a badass. You've kept your rubberband stretched more than basically anyone else. But I think it's good that his post shows that we will naturally soften in our older age, because it's the truth, and something worth thinking about for those considering FIRE while young.

LightStache

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2022, 10:28:22 AM »
I think his post is fantastic. It accurately reflects the true nature of aging. In our 20s it's easy to adopt a motto of austerity. Backpack across Europe staying in hostels, crash on a friend's couch for a week, drive across the country without A/C, etc. In our 30s we start to soften. Mental and physical discomfort become less tolerable and it is a fight to keep that rubberband stretched out. I feel this keenly now, about to turn 39, and trying to figure out how to keep my nomadic travel lifestyle alive while realizing there are certain things my wife and I just won't tolerate anymore. MMM is now in his mid-40s. Age is constantly going to be putting pressure on that tolerance rubberband to tighten up and he is succumbing to that just a little bit. And that's awesome, because he is modeling exactly what happens to everyone else. I understand a new reader might not realize that but he does point out that he's older.

If you become a multi-millionaire and at 45 you're still willing scrimp on some once yearly travel comforts to save $1,000 then you are truly a badass. You've kept your rubberband stretched more than basically anyone else. But I think it's good that his post shows that we will naturally soften in our older age, because it's the truth, and something worth thinking about for those considering FIRE while young.

This is just lifestyle inflation.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 12:30:15 PM by LightStache »

Cassie

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2022, 10:45:19 AM »
I bought a car with AC for the first time at age 37 and my last time in a tent was at 55. Then we bought a used motor home with a real bed. As you age you definitely want more creature comforts.

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2022, 01:42:30 PM »
I think his post is fantastic. It accurately reflects the true nature of aging. In our 20s it's easy to adopt a motto of austerity. Backpack across Europe staying in hostels, crash on a friend's couch for a week, drive across the country without A/C, etc. In our 30s we start to soften. Mental and physical discomfort become less tolerable and it is a fight to keep that rubberband stretched out. I feel this keenly now, about to turn 39, and trying to figure out how to keep my nomadic travel lifestyle alive while realizing there are certain things my wife and I just won't tolerate anymore. MMM is now in his mid-40s. Age is constantly going to be putting pressure on that tolerance rubberband to tighten up and he is succumbing to that just a little bit. And that's awesome, because he is modeling exactly what happens to everyone else. I understand a new reader might not realize that but he does point out that he's older.

If you become a multi-millionaire and at 45 you're still willing scrimp on some once yearly travel comforts to save $1,000 then you are truly a badass. You've kept your rubberband stretched more than basically anyone else. But I think it's good that his post shows that we will naturally soften in our older age, because it's the truth, and something worth thinking about for those considering FIRE while young.

This is just modest lifestyle inflation.
FTFY

Mr. Green

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2022, 02:59:06 PM »
I think his post is fantastic. It accurately reflects the true nature of aging. In our 20s it's easy to adopt a motto of austerity. Backpack across Europe staying in hostels, crash on a friend's couch for a week, drive across the country without A/C, etc. In our 30s we start to soften. Mental and physical discomfort become less tolerable and it is a fight to keep that rubberband stretched out. I feel this keenly now, about to turn 39, and trying to figure out how to keep my nomadic travel lifestyle alive while realizing there are certain things my wife and I just won't tolerate anymore. MMM is now in his mid-40s. Age is constantly going to be putting pressure on that tolerance rubberband to tighten up and he is succumbing to that just a little bit. And that's awesome, because he is modeling exactly what happens to everyone else. I understand a new reader might not realize that but he does point out that he's older.

If you become a multi-millionaire and at 45 you're still willing scrimp on some once yearly travel comforts to save $1,000 then you are truly a badass. You've kept your rubberband stretched more than basically anyone else. But I think it's good that his post shows that we will naturally soften in our older age, because it's the truth, and something worth thinking about for those considering FIRE while young.

This is just lifestyle inflation.
Technically true, but my post is still accurate. I know of no one in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who live like they did in their 20s. Inflation or not, it's a part of life for basically everyone.

LightStache

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2022, 03:08:08 PM »
Thanks @Dicey ! ;)

Well damn, I just ran an excursion factoring in all the modest lifestyle inflation I want...looks like I'm going to need an extra 12 years of work and $4.8M. Womp womp.

caleb

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2022, 03:36:59 PM »
I think his post is fantastic. It accurately reflects the true nature of aging. In our 20s it's easy to adopt a motto of austerity. Backpack across Europe staying in hostels, crash on a friend's couch for a week, drive across the country without A/C, etc. In our 30s we start to soften. Mental and physical discomfort become less tolerable and it is a fight to keep that rubberband stretched out. I feel this keenly now, about to turn 39, and trying to figure out how to keep my nomadic travel lifestyle alive while realizing there are certain things my wife and I just won't tolerate anymore. MMM is now in his mid-40s.

This is a little bit of a tangent, but one of the reasons that I'm not really aiming for an early retirement is that I'm not at all confident that my preferences will remain constant as I age.

Camping at state parks is great in our (late) 30s, but will we want a vacation home when we're 60?  Perhaps.

It seems very possible that it takes more money to have the same level of comfort as we age, which is pretty tough to really budget.

The 21st Century idea of FIRE hasn't really been put to the test yet because we haven't seen how people's behavior changes as they age over decades, and the market has so outperformed that people haven't been held to a 4% withdrawal rate.  A decade of sideways market movement as early retirees start to feel the aches and pains of advancing years would be interesting to watch.

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2022, 05:45:55 PM »
Thanks @Dicey ! ;)

Well damn, I just ran an excursion factoring in all the modest lifestyle inflation I want...looks like I'm going to need an extra 12 years of work and $4.8M. Womp womp.
That's a hell of an excursion! Where are you going?

Fru-Gal

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2022, 01:06:45 AM »
Iím 52 years old and recently rode my bike and took a train solo to an all-day event, then came back in the dark alone navigating my way to the train through unfamiliar streets, waiting on the last train home with shady characters, getting off and riding like a demon home to avoid even more shady characters roaming my urban streets. And I had a perfectly good car parked at home that I couldíve used.

Oh and sometimes I like to sleep on the floor (itís great for my back). I believe in keeping myself hedonically unadapted (though I do buy top quality tools for my side hustle).

Fru-Gal

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2022, 01:19:41 AM »
Holy smokes after posting about myself (just throwing in a data point about a 50+-year-old person who is not hedonically adapting) I read the post and yeah people are being way harsh and missing the point of the post. I think itís a point that bears repeating again and again which is that while some of us will not run out of money, we will all run out of time.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2022, 07:43:30 AM »
Heís FI and can as Dave Ramsey would say ďlive like no one elseĒ.  If he wants to spend a small portion of his overall net worth on these items, what is the problem?

Dicey

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2022, 07:50:17 AM »
Iím 52 years old and recently rode my bike and took a train solo to an all-day event, then came back in the dark alone navigating my way to the train through unfamiliar streets, waiting on the last train home with shady characters, getting off and riding like a demon home to avoid even more shady characters roaming my urban streets. And I had a perfectly good car parked at home that I couldíve used.

Oh and sometimes I like to sleep on the floor (itís great for my back). I believe in keeping myself hedonically unadapted (though I do buy top quality tools for my side hustle).
There's something here about avoiding unnecessary risk, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

Mr. Green

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2022, 08:29:51 AM »
Yeah there's way too much angst about a middle aged person spending an extra $1,000 a year in "lifestyle inflation" because said person is no longer as hardcore as they were 15 years ago. It's quite hilarious! I expect everyone here to still be popping wheelies on their bike in the snow in their backyard when they're 80. Pics or it didn't happen!

ender

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2022, 08:36:24 AM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.

chemistk

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2022, 09:06:33 AM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.

This is where I stand, ultimately. Pete has earned his lifestyle, no doubt, but it's kind of antithetical to the principles that are espoused earlier in the blog. I think a lot of the issue for me comes from the fact that some of the core blog posts are about a decade old now and much has changed between then and now. What would he have written had he started the blog this year.

I'll be clear - I'm completely for him being able to do the things he is doing. I am happy that he's at this point in his life and that his dream was successfully accomplished. But his travel is done as Pete, traveling to see family, making the most of that experience as he gets older - not MMM, who's always on the lookout for ways to optimize his lifestyle to be environmentally conscious.

Villanelle

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2022, 09:32:17 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with what he's recently done, and the choices are more in line with how I generally live and spend.

That said, I see a certain... tension with MMM2022 and MMM OG.  His original schtick was so OTT judgmental, and didn't allow any room for differences in life.  That guy would have mocked and facepunched this guy.  To me, this speaks not to the current choices being wrong or bad, but the the old guy being myopic and small-minded. 

Life changes.  Finances change.  Bodies and comfort change.  His old attitude didn't allow space for that.  Quite possibly that's just because moderation wouldn't have gotten as many clicks.  And to address it now would mean eating some crow and admitting that maybe he didn't actually know as much as he thought he did.  But it's hard for me to read today's MMM and not think about what OG MMM would have said to this new, fancy, hedonistic traveler. 

And I guess that's the core of it for me--presumably he gives himself a lot of grace--grace that he never granted anyone else 10+ years ago. 

Catbert

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2022, 10:44:49 AM »
I think part of the problem is that MMM doesn't post much any more.  If he'd been posting once a week for the past 5 years we'd see a gradual evolution of his situation and life.  In contrast, GoCurryCracker started out as two fancy free early retirees traveling the world on little money and paying no income tax.  Now they're a family of four owning and living in a California house and living frugally.  Jeremy posted often enough that you could see the logical changes in his lifestyle.

As others have said better than I can, the OG MMM was a badass caricature of an uber frugal dude with a family.  Now we don't even think we know how he's living. 

Fru-Gal

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2022, 10:59:07 AM »
And yet he was always uber frugal while living an incredibly luxurious lifestyle. He said this repeatedly. Also itís really interesting to see how many people felt like the whole face punching concept was a brutal critique. I never took it that way. I think he was appealing to exactly the kind of lifestyle I live therefore I didnít feel attacked. If he had said no individual should own a single-family home or even one car, no one should reproduce, technology is bad, etc, then yes I would feel attacked.

All along he has been enjoying making careful quality purchases that aligned with his values, renovating homes, living in a Colorado suburb, admiring Teslas (which I think are stupid and wasteful 😂)Ö None of this is a surprise or a deviation from his personality.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 11:03:55 AM by Fru-Gal »

caleb

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2022, 11:12:40 AM »
It doesn't matter because they were business expenses and not part of his personal spending, so probably stilling living way below $250k $25k per year.  😂🤣😂🤣

Yes, his budget is basically that of a typical middle class American.  The sum of his imputed rent, self insurance, the expenditures put under business, and $25k of discretionary is easily north of $50k/year.  For one guy with half of a kiddo, that's not exactly living on rice and beans.  His rhetoric has been rice and beans, but the numbers he's disclosed have been a pretty middle America lifestyle.

Quite possibly that's just because moderation wouldn't have gotten as many clicks. 

Yeah, a schtick of tech dude comes out of college without debt during the go-go dot com days, learns to live like an ordinary person without a cocaine habit, and invests the leftover money with a strategy anyone can figure out in an afternoon right as assets go to the moon isn't exactly going to earn a big following. 

Presenting ordinary thrift as radical self denial and minimizing the luck involved in his timing sells much better.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 08:50:36 PM by caleb »

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2022, 11:19:09 AM »
It's not like he chartered a plane or is flying first class, or even business class. Some of these comments are crazy harsh.

I concur. Along those lines even if he had bought the first class tickets, is the world a worse place? The private plane would mean more carbon emissions, but the first class seats change nothing.

It doesn't matter because they were business expenses and not part of his personal spending, so probably stilling living way below $250k $25k per year.  😂🤣😂🤣

But seriously, I FIREd 3 years ago and still worry moderately about running out of money later, although I am not in the 2.5% wr or property owner that theoughs off 2x living expenses, so there that, and 3 school age kids rapidly approaching college.   🤔
Aren't all school age children rapidly approaching college? Oh, wait. They have to learn to drive first. Fun times ahead.

It really is a blink of an eye how fast they grow up.  Oldest is starting to drive so more worries, and the extra 1500-2000 per year for insurance.  Fun times indeed.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2022, 11:26:52 AM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.

Part of combatting lifestyle inflation is so that it does not interfere with your long term goals of FIRE. If someone happens to be so fortunate that they ďFIREĒ and then their passive income explodes due to side hustles they enjoy, is it that big of an issue to enjoy some Ďnicerí things, when it has zero impact in the long run?

If someone is in the working stages and buys a $250 mountain bike to enjoy so they can continue to save, thatís great. If they are in FIRE and all of a sudden their $1MM nest egg turns to $4MM in side hustles, plus they have a passive income of $150k/yr, and they decide they really want to get into mountain biking and buy a $3k mountain bike, is that a big problem now?

Iíd bet that MMMís savings rate is higher now than it was at the peak of his working years, isnít that what itís largely about?

I understand that thereís the whole ďbadassityĒ aspect, the drive to minimize hedonic adaption, etc., but there are certainly some modern conveniences that certain income/net worth people may wish to take advantage of.

Mr. Green

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2022, 11:42:59 AM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.
Sounds like he's still pretty badass at 45. He's just not as badass as he was at 30. Anyone expecting that is going to be disappointed because it's not reality for basically anyone.

ender

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2022, 12:03:50 PM »
No one cares (much) if the average person experiences lifestyle inflation.

But when someone who made a blog with a central theme of being badass and not having lifestyle inflation does, it's a bit more hypocritical.

Part of combatting lifestyle inflation is so that it does not interfere with your long term goals of FIRE. If someone happens to be so fortunate that they ďFIREĒ and then their passive income explodes due to side hustles they enjoy, is it that big of an issue to enjoy some Ďnicerí things, when it has zero impact in the long run?

If someone is in the working stages and buys a $250 mountain bike to enjoy so they can continue to save, thatís great. If they are in FIRE and all of a sudden their $1MM nest egg turns to $4MM in side hustles, plus they have a passive income of $150k/yr, and they decide they really want to get into mountain biking and buy a $3k mountain bike, is that a big problem now?

Iíd bet that MMMís savings rate is higher now than it was at the peak of his working years, isnít that what itís largely about?

I understand that thereís the whole ďbadassityĒ aspect, the drive to minimize hedonic adaption, etc., but there are certainly some modern conveniences that certain income/net worth people may wish to take advantage of.

You're missing the point.

Do you think 2012 MMM would have said "go ahead and buy a 3k mountain bike instead of a used one" or "go ahead and buy a brand new SUV" to anyone, regardless of income level? If not, why?

That said, I see a certain... tension with MMM2022 and MMM OG.  His original schtick was so OTT judgmental, and didn't allow any room for differences in life.  That guy would have mocked and facepunched this guy.  To me, this speaks not to the current choices being wrong or bad, but the the old guy being myopic and small-minded. 

Life changes.  Finances change.  Bodies and comfort change.  His old attitude didn't allow space for that.  Quite possibly that's just because moderation wouldn't have gotten as many clicks.  And to address it now would mean eating some crow and admitting that maybe he didn't actually know as much as he thought he did.  But it's hard for me to read today's MMM and not think about what OG MMM would have said to this new, fancy, hedonistic traveler. 

And I guess that's the core of it for me--presumably he gives himself a lot of grace--grace that he never granted anyone else 10+ years ago. 


Yup. This is the only reason I even care on this, albeit still not much at all.

OG MMM would have smacked MMM2022 hard.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2022, 12:12:23 PM »
And yet he was always uber frugal while living an incredibly luxurious lifestyle. He said this repeatedly. Also itís really interesting to see how many people felt like the whole face punching concept was a brutal critique. I never took it that way. I think he was appealing to exactly the kind of lifestyle I live therefore I didnít feel attacked. If he had said no individual should own a single-family home or even one car, no one should reproduce, technology is bad, etc, then yes I would feel attacked.

All along he has been enjoying making careful quality purchases that aligned with his values, renovating homes, living in a Colorado suburb, admiring Teslas (which I think are stupid and wasteful 😂)Ö None of this is a surprise or a deviation from his personality.

I didn't feel at all attacked, and never did even when I was making choices that MMM at the time would have scoffed at.  I'm pretty comfortable with my lifestyle and spending choices, which I'd peg as somewhere between 2010 MMM and 2022 MMM.  But he was certainly judgmental and rigid in his thinking, so it's interesting to me to watch someone who was pretty sanctimonious about choices outside what he deemed as acceptable now make choices outside of what he deemed acceptable.  He isn't subjecting himself to the same scrutiny as he subjected others too.  And of course that's going to get, well... scrutiny.  It seems a lot like "do as I say, not as I do", especially when he hasn't actually addressed the changes in his mindset and approach. 

And I don't see how that's not a deviation from his personality.  Are you telling me that 10 years ago, he wouldn't have shat upon premium travel as hedonism at it's worst and a terrible, face punch-worthy waste?  That this somehow isn't a fairly significant shift in his supposed spending criteria and overall philosophy about finances and badassity and DIY and hedonistic adaptation?

And even that is fine.  People change.  They learn.  They evolve.  They experience different things.  They have different, unexpected needs.  But when you are repeatedly on record as being one way and judging that as basically the One True Way, and they you start living a different way, yeah, that's going to get some attention.

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2022, 12:17:37 PM »
Ultimately it proves that luxuries are nice to have once you can afford them, despite all the years MMM proclaimed his 25k budget afforded a volcanic explosion of comfortÖ. Itís hypocritical when you blog that luxury leads to bedpans and flabassity, no other word for it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 12:27:20 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2022, 01:07:43 PM »
First, the topic of the blog post is about how to feel secure in your FI and not worry about running out of money when it's abundantly clear you won't. If you read it in that spirit, I think it works.

Also, the whole topic of hedonic adaptation builds on the fact that if you do something nice all the time, you'll adapt to it. It would be different if he said that, since he'll never run out of money, he's going to fly first class everywhere and buy a giant SUV. A single splurge doesn't mean you're hedonically adapted, and it seems to me that his choices also didn't lead to increased carbon emissions (renting a Tesla instead of a Suburban, etc).

mm1970

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2022, 09:33:58 AM »
Ultimately it proves that luxuries are nice to have once you can afford them, despite all the years MMM proclaimed his 25k budget afforded a volcanic explosion of comfortÖ. Itís hypocritical when you blog that luxury leads to bedpans and flabassity, no other word for it.
First, the topic of the blog post is about how to feel secure in your FI and not worry about running out of money when it's abundantly clear you won't. If you read it in that spirit, I think it works.

Also, the whole topic of hedonic adaptation builds on the fact that if you do something nice all the time, you'll adapt to it. It would be different if he said that, since he'll never run out of money, he's going to fly first class everywhere and buy a giant SUV. A single splurge doesn't mean you're hedonically adapted, and it seems to me that his choices also didn't lead to increased carbon emissions (renting a Tesla instead of a Suburban, etc).

Just to be clear, are we actually defining an Economy plus seat and renting a Tesla that's about the same size as a Honda CRV as luxury?  So...six inches?

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Re: Premium Air Travel & Car Rentals are Mustachian Now?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2022, 01:36:05 PM »
I just flew regular economy and am carpooling and I donít feel deprived, so yeah a bit luxurious and wasteful for someone who espoused stoicism.  Iím not even retired like he is!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!