Post COVID, what things in life will be fundamentally different?

[FIPurpose]

I'm not really sure what the US federal government was supposed to do differently.  They don't have the power to shut down businesses.  They don't manage the hospitals.  They actually made a smart move in shutting down travel from China pretty early in the game.  I guess they could have forced businesses to start producing masks and ventilators sooner than they did.

The big mistakes I think the federal government made:

1) Not restocking the national stockpile after the H1N1 flu.
2) Letting coronavirus testing get locked up by mess ups at the CDC (which was both blocking the WHO developed test AND blocking public and academic labs from running their own testing) rather than pushing every competent facility to start rolling out lab developed tests right away.
2B) They should have been doing a lot more contact tracing from confirmed cases, but this would only have been possible with more testing.
3) Ramp up mask production in early February. Ventilators are expensive to make and have long lead times. With 4-6 weeks and tens of millions (not billions) of dollars we'd be swimming in surgical masks right now. (Taiwan did exactly this.)
4) Refusing to recommend regular americans wear masks until a few days ago.

There are other bigger changes that I think they had enough information to make the call on (like shutting down international travel more generally, we now know the outbreak in NYC mostly came from Europe, not China directly), but other country's didn't make that call either and had access to the same information.

Items #1-4 many other countries DID do and are in much better situations than we are today as a result.

The federal government could have also:

5. Not reduced the budget of the CDC
6. Not get rid of the pandemic response team
7. Make bulk purchases of masks and other materials and then distribute them based on need to the states (instead Trump wanted to play a stupid money making game)
8. Deploy the military to work as emergency personnel in the hardest hit locations.

I think we can keep going with this list. In fact, Trump has been uniquely bad at responding to this pandemic.

[RetiredAt63]

The US is way behind in banking. Card use and technology. This has been the case for at least a decade. The banks in this country just did not want to spend the money, and people here who do not travel abroad know no different.

Yes, at least in terms with Canada.  I went to the US almost yearly for shopping from about 2000-2010.  From about 2000 on, I was able to use debit for a very large % of my purchases in Canada.  I remember on one of these trips probably about 2005, someone used a personal cheque at a major retailer in front of me in the checkout line, I was shocked!  I was even more shocked when the cashier accepted it without blinking an eye!  Everyplace in Canada that I knew of stopped accepting personal cheques at some point in the late 1990s.

I now use tap for any purchase I can on my cc, which has been pretty widely accepted here for the last 3 years or so.

And I had no trouble using my Canadian credit card in New Zealand (mostly tap, some charges were over my limit and I had to swipe), and taking cash out of ATMs with CIRRUS. 

My DD even pays for little things (like a coffee) with tap, instead of cash.

[Plina]

The US is way behind in banking. Card use and technology. This has been the case for at least a decade. The banks in this country just did not want to spend the money, and people here who do not travel abroad know no different.

Yes, at least in terms with Canada.  I went to the US almost yearly for shopping from about 2000-2010.  From about 2000 on, I was able to use debit for a very large % of my purchases in Canada.  I remember on one of these trips probably about 2005, someone used a personal cheque at a major retailer in front of me in the checkout line, I was shocked!  I was even more shocked when the cashier accepted it without blinking an eye!  Everyplace in Canada that I knew of stopped accepting personal cheques at some point in the late 1990s.

I now use tap for any purchase I can on my cc, which has been pretty widely accepted here for the last 3 years or so.

And I had no trouble using my Canadian credit card in New Zealand (mostly tap, some charges were over my limit and I had to swipe), and taking cash out of ATMs with CIRRUS. 

My DD even pays for little things (like a coffee) with tap, instead of cash.

I actually had to Google how the current cash bills looked about two years ago when I sold my sofa. Here in Sweden, there are a lot of places that don’t accept cash at all. Even the local athletic club in my small village accepts cards or mobilepayments. I pay everything with a card or with a mobile payment and that is how most of the people do it. The tap has become a norm here during the last years so much that there is a note on the machine if it has not the tap function. But above a certain limit you have to use the pin. I think they have upped the limit to 40 USD now during the coronacrisis.

Order people, in their 80-90ies still use some cash.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

The US is way behind in banking. Card use and technology. This has been the case for at least a decade. The banks in this country just did not want to spend the money, and people here who do not travel abroad know no different.

Yes, at least in terms with Canada.  I went to the US almost yearly for shopping from about 2000-2010.  From about 2000 on, I was able to use debit for a very large % of my purchases in Canada.  I remember on one of these trips probably about 2005, someone used a personal cheque at a major retailer in front of me in the checkout line, I was shocked!  I was even more shocked when the cashier accepted it without blinking an eye!  Everyplace in Canada that I knew of stopped accepting personal cheques at some point in the late 1990s.

I now use tap for any purchase I can on my cc, which has been pretty widely accepted here for the last 3 years or so.

And I had no trouble using my Canadian credit card in New Zealand (mostly tap, some charges were over my limit and I had to swipe), and taking cash out of ATMs with CIRRUS. 

My DD even pays for little things (like a coffee) with tap, instead of cash.

I actually had to Google how the current cash bills looked about two years ago when I sold my sofa. Here in Sweden, there are a lot of places that don’t accept cash at all. Even the local athletic club in my small village accepts cards or mobilepayments. I pay everything with a card or with a mobile payment and that is how most of the people do it. The tap has become a norm here during the last years so much that there is a note on the machine if it has not the tap function. But above a certain limit you have to use the pin. I think they have upped the limit to 40 USD now during the coronacrisis.

Order people, in their 80-90ies still use some cash.

I never use cash. Bills are paid online, and I'll use a card for purchases. Bigger places have paywave (tap) but the smaller one don't because it costs the retailers to provide it. The supermarkets at the moment are not taking cash except in one special lane where the staff have extra protection.

[shelivesthedream]

I have heard, in relation to another US banking problem, that its about how the US  is organized. In the UK we have a few big national banks. If one does something, that's a big % of UK banking. In the US, it's huge geographically and they have more banks and more non-national banks, so if one does something it's a much smaller % of total banking. So it's harder for one bank to lead the way on something that needs buy-in from someone else because they won't see a return until everyone else adopts it too.

That said, US banking now sounds like UK banking when I was a young child - or even earlier. In the early 1990s people could still pay at tills with cheques but even then it was unusual.

[Freedomin5]

We are kind of living a post-COVID life right now in China. There have been no local cases in Shanghai for the past few weeks and we have only had imported cases. Right now, everyone is still wearing masks and the government has stepped up its use of big data to track public health data. Everyone has a health QR code which you have to show to prove that you are healthy before being allowed enter public places.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

We are kind of living a post-COVID life right now in China. There have been no local cases in Shanghai for the past few weeks and we have only had imported cases. Right now, everyone is still wearing masks and the government has stepped up its use of big data to track public health data. Everyone has a health QR code which you have to show to prove that you are healthy before being allowed enter public places.

The health QR code I don't understand. You could be exposed 2 minutes after getting it. It really means nothing.

[Metalcat]

I'm of the opinion that not much will change, at least in the US, as a result of this. I'm *hoping* the government will pull their heads out of their asses and be more prepared for the next time this happens. But I'm not optimistic.

One thing I really do hope will change is an increase in contactless forms of payment. We were in the UK right when this hit, and were struck by how many people had contactless credit cards. I know Apple Pay is a thing, but I think the credit card technology is going to be where it has to go to make it widespread. Crossing my fingers that when all of my cards renew, they'll be contactless-enabled.

Is contactless pay not a thing in the US?
It's everywhere here, to the point that people get really irritated when there's no tap.

I'm rarely in the US, but I was there 4 years ago when chip cards were ubiquitous here in Canada and absolutely nowhere that I went in the US had them, it was still swipe everywhere.

Can anyone explain this to me?

We use chip readers most places I go, but I still have to tap the screen to confirm the amount (and occasionally for my receipt option). It's an annoyance even when there isn't a contagion sitting on surfaces. Of course I am confirming the amount; that's why I decided to put my card in.

I'm talking about tap, not chip.

I mentioned chip as another example like, 10 years ago chip cards were everywhere in Canada, but then 4 years ago I went to the US and not a single place had chip reader.

We've had tap here in Canada almost everywhere for a few years now. There's usually a limit of $100CAD for tap, but during the crisis, a lot of chains are increasing that purchase limit to avoid contact.

Additionally, before this happened though, several places had already phased out cash. Our national train service had just phased out all cash purchases recently.

I'm just wondering what on earth the difference is between the US and Canada that makes our uptake of banking tech like a decade faster.

However, a PP mentioned number of banks, and that may be a thing? We really don't have a ton of banks here, and the vast majority bank with the "Big 5", who send out new cards with new tech, and then the demand from the public for merchants to accomodate that new tech is enormous.

Seriously, you should see the visible agitation people have here when they can't tap. It's intense. Even if you have a bolded sign that says 'NO TAP', they'll still try tapping a few times, and then get aggravated that it isn't working.

So I'm guessing you guys don't have a lot of places where you can pay contactless with your phones then???

Unless I'm driving, I don't even carry my wallet because I can use my phone as a credit card.

[OtherJen]

Some factions of Evangelical Christianity believe that microchips are the mark of the beast (i.e., the devil). Unfortunately, I spent my teenage years hearing about this due to a parent who had converted to an insane church and took up watching televangelists as a hobby. Given the influence of that cultural background over the US (see the entire GOP), it isn't surprising to me at all that we're more than a decade behind other countries in terms of banking/payment tech.

Some of the larger stores around here have tap pay. I always use it at Costco, for example. I'm just grateful that I can get away with using cards for almost everything, even if I have to insert them in a chip reader. I get annoyed when I have to use cash.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Question for people in the essentially cashless society. Are the fees associated with electronic purchases just a part of life? Are they handled by the government? When I use it at places like the local farmer's market/writing checks to places I want to donate money too/etc. it makes me a little bit happier to realize they are not losing x% of it to fees that are unnecessary. I could care less about it if I buy something at Amazon or Walmart, but it does mean something for certain places that get my money.

[Freedomin5]

We are kind of living a post-COVID life right now in China. There have been no local cases in Shanghai for the past few weeks and we have only had imported cases. Right now, everyone is still wearing masks and the government has stepped up its use of big data to track public health data. Everyone has a health QR code which you have to show to prove that you are healthy before being allowed enter public places.

The health QR code I don't understand. You could be exposed 2 minutes after getting it. It really means nothing.

Not if they take your temperature every few hours (every time you enter a public space) and report you if you have a fever. Is it perfect? No. Will this type of monitoring allow the gvmt to identify some of the infected people. Yes.

[shelivesthedream]

Question for people in the essentially cashless society. Are the fees associated with electronic purchases just a part of life? Are they handled by the government? When I use it at places like the local farmer's market/writing checks to places I want to donate money too/etc. it makes me a little bit happier to realize they are not losing x% of it to fees that are unnecessary. I could care less about it if I buy something at Amazon or Walmart, but it does mean something for certain places that get my money.

My understanding is that for whatever reason the fees for the mechant are much less or nonexistent for contactless, and I am sure they do more business because of it because people can make small impulse purchases more easily than if they have to have cash. In fact, I know more than one small business that is 100% cashless and only takes card or contactless. The consumer demand for it is huge.

[ctuser1]

There are fees for the cashless - fees that are direct and in your face - and they are typically in the 1% to 2% range.

In comparison, cash usage has costs too. This paper looks at the wider societal costs - https://hbr.org/2014/06/the-hidden-costs-of-cash. How about other types of direct costs to the merchant? cost of time to make a bank run every day? physical cash handling, loss, theft? These are all real costs.

I am too lazy to look up real data driven research right now to compare costs side by side. But, in my anecdotal and personal opinion, there is definitely more value in cashless transactions than the 1 to 2% fees charged. For random, small, one time purchases I'd gladly pay the 2% fee (even if not reimbursed by reward points) for the convenience of cashless transaction. Larger transactions are different, of course!

I think it is better to let the market decide the move. After COVID - I bet more people would hate germ-ridden cash. I'm personally happy to have the marketplace drive that push and drag the unwilling along. Overall, I strongly suspect, it will be a good thing for the entire economy if everyone moved to cashless transactions.

[Metalcat]

Question for people in the essentially cashless society. Are the fees associated with electronic purchases just a part of life? Are they handled by the government? When I use it at places like the local farmer's market/writing checks to places I want to donate money too/etc. it makes me a little bit happier to realize they are not losing x% of it to fees that are unnecessary. I could care less about it if I buy something at Amazon or Walmart, but it does mean something for certain places that get my money.

We're not cashless, a lot of places like farmers markets, etc are still pretty cash heavy. We also still have cheques, however, a lot of places without credit card payments will accept e-transfers. That's how I pay my therapist and physio.

Only some businesses are totally cash free.

[kanga1622]

I LOVE being able to tap my phone to pay. So easy and I don’t have to carry anything else around with me. Unfortunately, the vending machines in my workplace that have the tap feature charge an extra $.10 per item unless you use cash.

But my Walmart and grocery store can both be paid with my phone so that is the majority of my transactions. We only use the checkbook for fundraisers and real estate taxes (if you pay by debit/credit they charge a 3% fee).

DH still likes cash because he can see exactly how much he has available. Although I may convert him after this whole situation where he cannot spend any cash.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Thanks for all the information feedback on this. I was curious and also interested for my personal payment for things. It sounds like my rationale is still sound, at least in my mind, for paying for things I had been with cash/check to benefit them. I can't imagine paying for something with a check, especially if it's a larger single donation, could balance out as worse for the person receiving it than taking 1-2% for a credit card. Farmer's markets still seems like it's benefiting them, but out of curiosity, I may ask some of them whenever we can finally go back to a farmer's market again.

[Cadman]

Some posters have mentioned they've gone entirely cashless...how do you handle private transactions (garage sales, FB Marketplace, Craigslist?). Both as a buyer and a seller.

What do you put in little Johnny's birthday card? If you drop in for a beer at the local watering hole, do you run your card for a $3 purchase knowing they'll get stuck with the fee? When the envelope gets passed around the office, how do you handle that? Eggs for sale at the local farmhouse? A pickup truck load of firewood?

The local courthouse is happy to take a CC for property tax payments...along with a processing fee + 2% on a 4-figure bill. No thanks. Just write a check and drop it in the mail. Though from what I understand, not many EU countries have mail pickup at the home (as a German friend asked, what are those red flags on the boxes?). I was paying our electric bill by CC for points, but being a publicly owned utility, they now also charge a fee in the interest of overhead, so this got moved to a recurring transfer. One more automated payment I have to keep track of.

[Unique User]

I'd love to see "tap" credit card payments, we almost never use cash except tips while traveling.  I sincerely hope that all Americans stay more interested in sanitary practices everywhere.  I also hope that being an anti-vaxxer becomes no longer socially acceptable and that Americans return to valuing experts and intellectuals. 

Not to derail, but hi to @Wolfpack Mustachian!  I'm assuming Wolfpack is a reference to NC State.  My daughter is home from state finishing up her freshman year

[shelivesthedream]

We're not entirely cashless but spend about £10 a month.

1. Private transactions: Paypal or I can do an instant bank transfer on my bank's phone app. (But Paypal is better for refunds.)
2. Birthday cards: we don't. Might be an issue in the future, I guess, but if it's our child or a future niece/nephew I'd do a bank transfer and if it's someone else's child I wouldn't give them cash anyway (a present or nothing)
3. Beer: yes. My experience with small businesses is that they don't mind (and I don't think it is a 2% fee for contactless over here) because they gain other benefits (e.g. not having to carry change, easier accounting)
4. Envelope: don't work in an office. If I did, I would remember to bring in some cash the next day.
5. Eggs/firewood: not a part of my life, but if it was I might keep some cash in the house specially for egg runs and I would pay for the firewoodnin advance or on delivery by PayPal or bank transfer. Though to be frank, these days they might turn up with a card reader - even chuggers have them!
6. Courthouse: it's the opposite here. You would get charged for a cheque, you might get charged for a credit card, debit or bank transfer would be free. I can't believe it when people on this forum talk about mailing cheques to pay bills. Everything is (100% free) direct debit in our house. I know it will be paid on time automatically and I just glance at my bank statement at my leisure a day or so after it's all supposed to have gone through (all bills paid a few days after payday) to check I don't have to dispute anything. Besides, when paying with cheques, aren't you spending money on stamps and envelopes, ornpetrol and time? Automated payments rocks because I can keep track of them on my own time when it suits me, not somebody else's and have to worry about late fees and remembering when things are due. It's never happened, but if I had a problem I could dispute the charges with my bank online.

[mm1970]

Some posters have mentioned they've gone entirely cashless...how do you handle private transactions (garage sales, FB Marketplace, Craigslist?). Both as a buyer and a seller.

What do you put in little Johnny's birthday card? If you drop in for a beer at the local watering hole, do you run your card for a $3 purchase knowing they'll get stuck with the fee? When the envelope gets passed around the office, how do you handle that? Eggs for sale at the local farmhouse? A pickup truck load of firewood?

The local courthouse is happy to take a CC for property tax payments...along with a processing fee + 2% on a 4-figure bill. No thanks. Just write a check and drop it in the mail. Though from what I understand, not many EU countries have mail pickup at the home (as a German friend asked, what are those red flags on the boxes?). I was paying our electric bill by CC for points, but being a publicly owned utility, they now also charge a fee in the interest of overhead, so this got moved to a recurring transfer. One more automated payment I have to keep track of.

1. Venmo, paypal
2. Gift card, check (not exactly cashless)

When we were in Denmark this summer, parking in Copenhagen was all cashless.  App only.  Annoying at first but really cool once you got the hang of it.

[kenner]

Some posters have mentioned they've gone entirely cashless...how do you handle private transactions (garage sales, FB Marketplace, Craigslist?). Both as a buyer and a seller.

What do you put in little Johnny's birthday card? If you drop in for a beer at the local watering hole, do you run your card for a $3 purchase knowing they'll get stuck with the fee? When the envelope gets passed around the office, how do you handle that? Eggs for sale at the local farmhouse? A pickup truck load of firewood?

The local courthouse is happy to take a CC for property tax payments...along with a processing fee + 2% on a 4-figure bill. No thanks. Just write a check and drop it in the mail. Though from what I understand, not many EU countries have mail pickup at the home (as a German friend asked, what are those red flags on the boxes?). I was paying our electric bill by CC for points, but being a publicly owned utility, they now also charge a fee in the interest of overhead, so this got moved to a recurring transfer. One more automated payment I have to keep track of.

For the last one, there's a difference between a debit and a CC transaction.  I'm in the US and while my local courthouse, utility company, etc. will absolutely charge a fee for a CC transactions, debit card transactions are handled just the same as mailing a check and have no fees.

[OtherJen]

Some posters have mentioned they've gone entirely cashless...how do you handle private transactions (garage sales, FB Marketplace, Craigslist?). Both as a buyer and a seller.

What do you put in little Johnny's birthday card? If you drop in for a beer at the local watering hole, do you run your card for a $3 purchase knowing they'll get stuck with the fee? When the envelope gets passed around the office, how do you handle that? Eggs for sale at the local farmhouse? A pickup truck load of firewood?

The local courthouse is happy to take a CC for property tax payments...along with a processing fee + 2% on a 4-figure bill. No thanks. Just write a check and drop it in the mail. Though from what I understand, not many EU countries have mail pickup at the home (as a German friend asked, what are those red flags on the boxes?). I was paying our electric bill by CC for points, but being a publicly owned utility, they now also charge a fee in the interest of overhead, so this got moved to a recurring transfer. One more automated payment I have to keep track of.

1. Venmo, paypal
2. Gift card, check (not exactly cashless)

When we were in Denmark this summer, parking in Copenhagen was all cashless.  App only.  Annoying at first but really cool once you got the hang of it.

Oh man, I love the parking apps. I wish Detroit would update theirs to be compatible with the current Android release (it hasn't worked on my phone in more than a year). At least the meters accept cards.

[jinga nation]

The US standing in the world order will be has been diminished.

The US Government response to Hurricane Katrina was met with dismay in many parts of the developed world. I travel a fair bit, and a consistent refrain was "How could this happen in America?" - referring to the disaster response. The Covid 19 federal response has been met with even more international dismay. The US and the rest of the world is looking at Germany, South Korea - and others - but not the US, for leadership, and a plan for how to get out of this mess.

FTFY.

African countries shunning USA, Europe, World Bank and embracing China's Belt and Road Initiative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

[Schaefer Light]

The US standing in the world order will be has been diminished.

The US Government response to Hurricane Katrina was met with dismay in many parts of the developed world. I travel a fair bit, and a consistent refrain was "How could this happen in America?" - referring to the disaster response. The Covid 19 federal response has been met with even more international dismay. The US and the rest of the world is looking at Germany, South Korea - and others - but not the US, for leadership, and a plan for how to get out of this mess.

FTFY.

African countries shunning USA, Europe, World Bank and embracing China's Belt and Road Initiative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

They'll come calling the good old US of A the next time they need any military assistance, though.

[Cranky]

I’m pretty sure that my most recent cc has tapping capabilities, but I’ve never set it up or tried it. I really only use it for online purchases. What is the advantage of tapping?

And my phone keeps telling me I can pay with the phone but I’ve never set that up. I did pay at Starbucks one time through the app but that’s been ages.

We usually use our debit cards and between the two of us we have maybe 10 transactions in a 2 week period. That includes deposits. It’s a lot fewer right now, of course. I usually get $20 back at the grocery store and use that for odds and ends of cash, like at the thrift store, for a couple of weeks, but I’m not doing that now, either.

[Kris]

I’m pretty sure that my most recent cc has tapping capabilities, but I’ve never set it up or tried it. I really only use it for online purchases. What is the advantage of tapping?

In the context of this thread, not having to touch a credit card payment terminal that hundreds of other people have recently touched before you. It’s contactless.

[former player]

The US standing in the world order will be has been diminished.

The US Government response to Hurricane Katrina was met with dismay in many parts of the developed world. I travel a fair bit, and a consistent refrain was "How could this happen in America?" - referring to the disaster response. The Covid 19 federal response has been met with even more international dismay. The US and the rest of the world is looking at Germany, South Korea - and others - but not the US, for leadership, and a plan for how to get out of this mess.

FTFY.

African countries shunning USA, Europe, World Bank and embracing China's Belt and Road Initiative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

They'll come calling the good old US of A the next time they need any military assistance, though.

Possibly, but given that Trump has spent a significant part of the last 3 years threatening to pull out of NATO and saying we all owe the USA money for Nato, and given his utter cowardice and kowtowing in the face of dictators, I'm not sure any of us think we can rely on y'all providing it any more.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Some factions of Evangelical Christianity believe that microchips are the mark of the beast (i.e., the devil). Unfortunately, I spent my teenage years hearing about this due to a parent who had converted to an insane church and took up watching televangelists as a hobby. Given the influence of that cultural background over the US (see the entire GOP), it isn't surprising to me at all that we're more than a decade behind other countries in terms of banking/payment tech.

Is it really necessary to malign 30-40% of the US population here*?

There is another big reason why US currency persists notwithstanding political affiliations : the underground economy. Both in the US and abroad. If you want to buy drugs or your employer insists on paying you under the table, then nothing works quite as well as the greenback.

*(lest you think I’m favoring one US political faction over the other, I detest strongly dislike both and I don’t vote.)

[ketchup]

American cash-hating millennial checking in.  I use Apple Pay (contactless) on my phone whenever possible.  Plenty of stores don't take it though.  Home Depot and Walmart come to mind.  95% of gas stations don't either.  Most don't even take chip cards.  I'm not sure why gas pumps in particular seem so behind.  Especially now, I'm more aware of that.

I can only think of two cash transactions I've made so far this year.  One was a frozen raw dog food bulk buy (the person coordinating it prefers cash to checks or PayPal), and the other was pot (pot shops take only cash because rules are tricky).  Girlfriend uses cash for parking at dog shows and nothing else.  Cash on the spending side always feels so shady and/or old-timey.  And remembering how much I have on me ($71 leftover from my last month-ago cash transaction), or using a debit card at the grocery store to get cashback is nearly as annoying as physically going to an ATM.

Girlfriend is self-employed and maybe 5% of her income is in cash.  Cash in a pain in the ass there too.  Not losing the fees to CC/PayPal is nice, but the record-keeping is sloppier and less automatic, and it needs to be kept track of and deposited physically at a bank.  Checks can at least be deposited on her phone.

[GuitarStv]

Some factions of Evangelical Christianity believe that microchips are the mark of the beast (i.e., the devil). Unfortunately, I spent my teenage years hearing about this due to a parent who had converted to an insane church and took up watching televangelists as a hobby. Given the influence of that cultural background over the US (see the entire GOP), it isn't surprising to me at all that we're more than a decade behind other countries in terms of banking/payment tech.

Is it really necessary to malign 30-40% of the US population here*?

There is another big reason why US currency persists notwithstanding political affiliations : the underground economy. Both in the US and abroad. If you want to buy drugs or your employer insists on paying you under the table, then nothing works quite as well as the greenback.

*(lest you think I’m favoring one US political faction over the other, I detest strongly dislike both and I don’t vote.)

Interesting.  You believe that pointing to strong evangelical Christian ties with the GOP is an insult?

I don't disagree, but don't often heard the sentiment voiced quite like that.  What percentage of US population do you think is maligned by that comment?

[Cranky]

I’m pretty sure that my most recent cc has tapping capabilities, but I’ve never set it up or tried it. I really only use it for online purchases. What is the advantage of tapping?

In the context of this thread, not having to touch a credit card payment terminal that hundreds of other people have recently touched before you. It’s contactless.

At this point, I’ve been to the store 3 times in the past month. I’ve worn gloves every time and honestly - by the time I get to the register, I’ve touched plenty of other things.

I did use hand sanitizer after ungloving and I did disinfect my card.

But in a general way I don’t feel that tapping my card would add a lot of value to my life. ;-)

[Kris]

I’m pretty sure that my most recent cc has tapping capabilities, but I’ve never set it up or tried it. I really only use it for online purchases. What is the advantage of tapping?

In the context of this thread, not having to touch a credit card payment terminal that hundreds of other people have recently touched before you. It’s contactless.

At this point, I’ve been to the store 3 times in the past month. I’ve worn gloves every time and honestly - by the time I get to the register, I’ve touched plenty of other things.

I did use hand sanitizer after ungloving and I did disinfect my card.

But in a general way I don’t feel that tapping my card would add a lot of value to my life. ;-)

Okey-dokey.

[shelivesthedream]

I've been thinking about the in-person transactions we make most frequently and why I love contactless so much, and actually the main way we use contactless is on public transport. All Tube stations and buses in London are contactless so you just tap your card and you've paid for your journey. No queue, no ticket to hang onto. Buses don't take cash any more which saves soooooo much time getting on when people can't try to pay their fare in farthings or "forget" to have enough money. If you don't have contactless on the Tube, you can queue up at a machine in the station, buy an Oyster card, and top it up with a card or cash, but then you have to keep an eye on how much money is on it and queue to top it up all the time. It's only for tourists now. That's the real value of contactless for me - it's removed an entire category of life admin from my life which I used to have to interact with on a frequent basis.

But even in other contexts I have appreciated how quick it is. Literally two seconds. It makes a difference when you're doing a quick transaction in a long queue. Sometimes I have gone so long only doing contactless I have been on the verge of forgetting my pin! (I only use an ATM every few months.)

[Buffaloski Boris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

[Kris]

I've been thinking about the in-person transactions we make most frequently and why I love contactless so much, and actually the main way we use contactless is on public transport. All Tube stations and buses in London are contactless so you just tap your card and you've paid for your journey. No queue, no ticket to hang onto. Buses don't take cash any more which saves soooooo much time getting on when people can't try to pay their fare in farthings or "forget" to have enough money. If you don't have contactless on the Tube, you can queue up at a machine in the station, buy an Oyster card, and top it up with a card or cash, but then you have to keep an eye on how much money is on it and queue to top it up all the time. It's only for tourists now. That's the real value of contactless for me - it's removed an entire category of life admin from my life which I used to have to interact with on a frequent basis.

But even in other contexts I have appreciated how quick it is. Literally two seconds. It makes a difference when you're doing a quick transaction in a long queue. Sometimes I have gone so long only doing contactless I have been on the verge of forgetting my pin! (I only use an ATM every few months.)

Yes indeed. My trip to London in early March right as things were ramping up was what made me want contactless so badly. It was really cool to see Londoners using it in so many different ways.

[Kris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

[js82]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

At minimum, this crisis is a powerful illustration of how public health problems are PUBLIC problems that can hurt all of us.  The flu may not be as lethal as Covid-19 on a per-capita basis, but it's still absurd that people come into work sick because their company doesn't have a good sick leave policy and/or a culture where it's acceptable for people to stay home while they're contagious.  Or how in many cases, under-insuring our citizens is probably costing everyone more in the long run due to complications from unidentified/untreated medical conditions.

[dividendman]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

I'd like to believe that too.  Unfortunately all of US history shows that American culture is more short sighted than many of the old-world cultures.

We can see clear improvement in the air quality.
We can see the need for individuals to be financially prudent.
We can see clear problems in labor equity.
We can see clear problems in the health system.
We can see clear problems with nepotism and government incompetence.
We can see clear advantages to listening to the experts.

What I think will happen is in 6 months when the strict quarantines are lifted is that people will forget about all of the above. Politicians and policy makers won't look to how we can reduce pollution overall with less economic impact, or even study how the environmental improvements from a brief economic pause helps us. People won't save more and will blow all of their money. The richest folks will get richer because we socialize business failures but privatize the gains. Anti-vaxxers will refuse the coronavirus vaccine if and when one becomes available leading to more outbreaks later - I don't think we could eradicate smallpox today. And ain't nobody puttin' no commie health care up in here.

Sigh.

[Cranky]

I've been thinking about the in-person transactions we make most frequently and why I love contactless so much, and actually the main way we use contactless is on public transport. All Tube stations and buses in London are contactless so you just tap your card and you've paid for your journey. No queue, no ticket to hang onto. Buses don't take cash any more which saves soooooo much time getting on when people can't try to pay their fare in farthings or "forget" to have enough money. If you don't have contactless on the Tube, you can queue up at a machine in the station, buy an Oyster card, and top it up with a card or cash, but then you have to keep an eye on how much money is on it and queue to top it up all the time. It's only for tourists now. That's the real value of contactless for me - it's removed an entire category of life admin from my life which I used to have to interact with on a frequent basis.

But even in other contexts I have appreciated how quick it is. Literally two seconds. It makes a difference when you're doing a quick transaction in a long queue. Sometimes I have gone so long only doing contactless I have been on the verge of forgetting my pin! (I only use an ATM every few months.)

I think it really makes a difference that you live in a big city, and I don’t!

I don’t stand in long lines.  It wouldn’t really save me any time to tap instead of pin. The busses aren’t currently running here, but it doesn’t slow anybody up when I put my change into the bus paying thing, especially since I’m often the only person riding the bus.

But I also only use my debit card a couple of times/week and don’t need to save those 5 seconds.

[Villanelle]

I think it is making me more motivated to FIRE.  Some have posited that this situation will make FIRE less popular.  Setting aside for the moment where the market might settle our and what that will do to FIRE plans, I think that in our case, it will make us more aggressive about getting out of the workforce, not more hesitant to do so.

While we are worried and anxious and stir-crazy, being home and together all day has been lovely.  A version of this life where we can go on walks and hit up museums and travel and explore and have a picnic?  It's always sounded lovely, but now I feel like we've experienced the together-all-day aspects of it, as well as the we-have-all-the-time-we-need aspects.

DH is currently working in the office one day a week, and from home the rest of the time.  I think it's going to be difficult for him to go back to an everyday office schedule. 

[Kris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

I'd like to believe that too.  Unfortunately all of US history shows that American culture is more short sighted than many of the old-world cultures.

We can see clear improvement in the air quality.
We can see the need for individuals to be financially prudent.
We can see clear problems in labor equity.
We can see clear problems in the health system.
We can see clear problems with nepotism and government incompetence.
We can see clear advantages to listening to the experts.

What I think will happen is in 6 months when the strict quarantines are lifted is that people will forget about all of the above. Politicians and policy makers won't look to how we can reduce pollution overall with less economic impact, or even study how the environmental improvements from a brief economic pause helps us. People won't save more and will blow all of their money. The richest folks will get richer because we socialize business failures but privatize the gains. Anti-vaxxers will refuse the coronavirus vaccine if and when one becomes available leading to more outbreaks later - I don't think we could eradicate smallpox today. And ain't nobody puttin' no commie health care up in here.

Sigh.

Agreed.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

One of the few ways we can get all of the above is through widespread unionization. The politicians certainly aren't going to volunteer to do it, and the corporatists sure aren't going to volunteer to pay for it. 

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.   

[Kris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

One of the few ways we can get all of the above is through widespread unionization. The politicians certainly aren't going to volunteer to do it, and the corporatists sure aren't going to volunteer to pay for it. 

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.   

So, how do we organize?

[Buffaloski Boris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

One of the few ways we can get all of the above is through widespread unionization. The politicians certainly aren't going to volunteer to do it, and the corporatists sure aren't going to volunteer to pay for it. 

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.   

So, how do we organize?

The same way you you organize anything: by talking. Most of the current US unions don’t seem terribly interested in organizing and labor busting seems to be a well oiled machine. Still, I think events of the past few weeks can safely put lie to the myth that companies will bend over backwards to keep their staff employed. Nope, at the first sign of adversity they will lay people off as quickly as they can. So from a marketing perspective I do think that unions have a pretty good story to tell. I also think that given the large number of foreign born and raised Americans that there is a little less of the bootstrap idea that an individual has as good of an opportunity to negotiate with management as a union does.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

One of the few ways we can get all of the above is through widespread unionization. The politicians certainly aren't going to volunteer to do it, and the corporatists sure aren't going to volunteer to pay for it. 

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.   

So, how do we organize?

The same way you you organize anything: by talking. Most of the current US unions don’t seem terribly interested in organizing and labor busting seems to be a well oiled machine. Still, I think events of the past few weeks can safely put lie to the myth that companies will bend over backwards to keep their staff employed. Nope, at the first sign of adversity they will lay people off as quickly as they can. So from a marketing perspective I do think that unions have a pretty good story to tell. I also think that given the large number of foreign born and raised Americans that there is a little less of the bootstrap idea that an individual has as good of an opportunity to negotiate with management as a union does.

Why are people surprised by this?? You're only a thing of use to an employer. Stop being of use and you will be replaced. And that works both ways, btw. If they're not working for you, don't work for them.

[Plina]

Question for people in the essentially cashless society. Are the fees associated with electronic purchases just a part of life? Are they handled by the government? When I use it at places like the local farmer's market/writing checks to places I want to donate money too/etc. it makes me a little bit happier to realize they are not losing x% of it to fees that are unnecessary. I could care less about it if I buy something at Amazon or Walmart, but it does mean something for certain places that get my money.

The fees are included in the price for the purchase as for cash. You are not allowed to take out a separate fee for use of cards. It costs to make cash deposits and there was a fee for checks already 20 years when I worked in retail. Cash has also the cost of counting, making deposits and bank costs to handling deposit. Not to talk about the cost of robberies and security costs related to cash. That is a big driver to a cashless society.

[Plina]

Some posters have mentioned they've gone entirely cashless...how do you handle private transactions (garage sales, FB Marketplace, Craigslist?). Both as a buyer and a seller.

What do you put in little Johnny's birthday card? If you drop in for a beer at the local watering hole, do you run your card for a $3 purchase knowing they'll get stuck with the fee? When the envelope gets passed around the office, how do you handle that? Eggs for sale at the local farmhouse? A pickup truck load of firewood?

The local courthouse is happy to take a CC for property tax payments...along with a processing fee + 2% on a 4-figure bill. No thanks. Just write a check and drop it in the mail. Though from what I understand, not many EU countries have mail pickup at the home (as a German friend asked, what are those red flags on the boxes?). I was paying our electric bill by CC for points, but being a publicly owned utility, they now also charge a fee in the interest of overhead, so this got moved to a recurring transfer. One more automated payment I have to keep track of.

Most of the people have Swish, the electronic payment option that is connected to your cellphone number. I would say that about 90 % of the transactions are made through it. If I sell something and someone gives me cash, I accept it but I probably would not bother to buy anything if they would not offer the ability to pay electronically.

Farmers markets and other professional vendors either offer pay through Swish or through cards. There is a thing for taking card payment for smaller businesses because if you make money over a certain threshold you have to have a cash register, which I guess is the deal for farmers markets and other kinds of markets.

The birthday card - I only have a niece and I have opened an account were I deposit and invest the money. In the bar I pay with a card. Many don't even accept cash. Money envelopes don't exist anymore. It is an email with a telephone number where you can Swish the money.  I have never bought eggs from a farm or firewood but I guess that they would have swish. For the firewood purchase I would probably make sure that I knew how he/she would like to have the payment. Property taxes are dealt with in the tax return so if you need to pay for it, you can make a direct deposit to you specifik tax account.

It is not like you can't take out cash from an ATM for use but most of the people don't find it necessary anymore because there are better options. Also the ATMs are getting less and less common when people are turning away from cash.

[Nick_Miller]

I realize that most folks here have some self-restraint when it comes to spending money, especially what I'd categorize as "impulse buys." I think I'm in that camp too.

But...

Even I admit that spending cash is psychologically harder for me than just swiping a card. I tend to really be conservative with my spare cash, partially I guess because it's limited, but also because it's more "real" on some level, when I have a $20 bill in my hand, and I tend to question my purchase more.

I know "cashless" or some version near that, is going to happen soon, and I've already pointed out how it will hurt the elderly and lower-income people, but it won't exactly help the "generally middle-class Dave Ramsey caller" types either. By that, I mean the folks with decent jobs who still tend to spend everything they make and save little for retirement.

And the easier we make it to spend money (card swiping becomes just a tap, a tap becomes a wave of your hand, or just looking at something with your eyeballs), the most these people will struggle with their impulses. Cash can slow down people a little. I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but there's a reason Dave talks about cash so much, because on some level it DOES create at least a bit of friction.

Is it really a good thing, if in 2 years, you can order from Amazon just by looking at an item and blinking? I mean, isn't SOME level of friction a good thing to balance between convenience and many people spending more recklessly and mindlessly than they already do?

[Kris]

Getting back to the topic, something that I've found pretty heartening of late is the number of labor strikes within the US.  Maybe organization of labor will be one of the good things that comes out of it?

I'd like to believe that Americans won't forget so quickly. Better labor practices, better sick leave policies, and health insurance reform really all ought to be a result of this wake-up call.

One of the few ways we can get all of the above is through widespread unionization. The politicians certainly aren't going to volunteer to do it, and the corporatists sure aren't going to volunteer to pay for it. 

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.   

So, how do we organize?

The same way you you organize anything: by talking. Most of the current US unions don’t seem terribly interested in organizing and labor busting seems to be a well oiled machine. Still, I think events of the past few weeks can safely put lie to the myth that companies will bend over backwards to keep their staff employed. Nope, at the first sign of adversity they will lay people off as quickly as they can. So from a marketing perspective I do think that unions have a pretty good story to tell. I also think that given the large number of foreign born and raised Americans that there is a little less of the bootstrap idea that an individual has as good of an opportunity to negotiate with management as a union does.

Problem is, a very large chunk of the people who will need to be convinced by this are Trump supporters.

They have been taught to think everything is Great(tm) and that talk like that is socialism.

I don’t think the story will sell well to them.

[RetiredAt63]

Is it really a good thing, if in 2 years, you can order from Amazon just by looking at an item and blinking? I mean, isn't SOME level of friction a good thing to balance between convenience and many people spending more recklessly and mindlessly than they already do?

Oh, you mean like one tap for kindle books on Amazon?  I've had that for years.  ;-)

More generally, societies did not always run just on cash.  Lots ran on barter, we are mostly past that.

Agricultural communities and the general store, each family had an account that was paid when payment for the cash crop came in.  Farmers and their families were not historically crazy spenders. 

The jar/envelope system has been around for a long time - you get that chunk of cash from your paycheque, you don't spend it, you put the rent/mortgage money in its envelope, the food money in its food envelope, etc.  Gail Vaz-Oxlade used this on 'Till Debt Do Us Part for people to learn how to budget.

It is the easy credit mind set, not the method of payment, that really matters.  We have had functional budgeting methods in the past.  The trick is to relearn them using present-day methods.