Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)

[Moustachienne]

Recent articles in the Atlantic highlight the immense pressures upper middle class parents, and those aspiring to the upper middle class, put on their kids to succeed, starting at a very early age. Mr. MM has pushed back against this in his inimitable way, thank heavens - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/12/avoiding-ivy-league-preschool-syndrome/

But the drumbeat is very loud.  I think almost the saddest thing in the story linked below is how the author has also bought into the myth that unless you're on the "top", you're on the bottom.  There's that doomed "struggling middle class" again.

"Even for those who fear the consequences of the pressure on their kids, they may figure it’s worth getting through a few tough years for a lifetime of economic security. One thing that bolsters this rationale: the steep dropoff in incomes and wealth from the very, very rich to America’s struggling middle class. There is a lot to be gained by being among the very elite. If that's something you have a reasonable shot at, there’s a good argument for taking it."

Why Affluent Parents Put So Much Pressure on Their Kids
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/pressure-affluent-parents/417045/

Also very worth reading the linked story on the Palo Alto suicide clusters. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-silicon-valley-suicides/413140/

JC on a cracker - human nature amirite?  The more wealth and privilege we have, the more we find ways to make our lives an unhappy  prison - and sign our kids up too.

And as a postscript - it's true that "in Canada, where higher education “lacks a steep prestige hierarchy,” the admissions competition is less dire."  Certainly at the undergrad level, all Canadian universities are very good and very similar.  There is not a lot of "name" prestige attached to one over the other.  But our universities are competing  hard to try to create this hierarchy and I fear that Canadian parents will buy in.  We're just like Americans but on a 10-15 year time delay.

PSS - although it's true that there is no dogmatic definition of Mustachianism and everyone on these forums decides what works for them, pushback against the tyranny of competition for more, more, more is the liberating foundation.

[scottish]

There are a lot of folks in developing countries who improved their situation by taking over manufacturing from first world countries.    Now they want to move up the food chain into "professional" jobs.    It's a competitive world out there, hopefully somebody's kids are willing to work hard to compete.  Otherwise our staches aren't going to be worth what they used to be.   In fact my CAD holdings are already not worth what they used to be.

I believe that if you look at the ethnic diversity in STEM and professional programs, you will see more folks who are second generation Canadians than those whose families have been here longer.   Families who remember poverty will work much harder to avoid it.

[justajane]

I read the Silicon Valley suicide article and was really impacted by it. Even though we don't live in such an affluent community, I still found myself thinking of ways that I could better communicate with my sons and how to instill the right values in them. Sometimes as parents I think we don't even realize that we are rewarding and praising success at the expense of our children. We know that we love them no matter what, but by always saying "Good job!" only when they excel, we might be setting them up for emotional difficulties. Maybe not of the magnitude that I saw in that article, but there is still something to learn.

Even here in the forums, you will sometimes come across people who are convinced that living in these affluent areas you encounter more "quality" people who will catapult your child to success. To me that's the real sadness, that these parents choose these districts and spend inordinate amounts for real estate  here because they think it is best for their children. Yes, even if the number is disproportionately higher than elsewhere, the likelihood of your child committing suicide because you move them to Palo Alto is still pretty low. Yet, the author still showed how, even if your child doesn't resort to the worst thing any parent can imagine, the teens in that district are very depressed and overwhelmed by that atmosphere. And even if the parents are entirely supportive and don't push their kids, it's the atmosphere of the school that you likely can't escape. The barometer for success isn't being a good person who is kind and rich in empathy; it's excelling academically and doing "extraordinary" things with your life. I would rather communicate to my kid that work is the sideshow; life is about learning and loving.

[nobodyspecial]

I believe that if you look at the ethnic diversity in STEM and professional programs, you will see more folks who are second generation Canadians than those whose families have been here longer.   Families who remember poverty will work much harder to avoid it.

Or the Asian kids aren't going to automatically get a VC job in daddy's office so had better get "real" degrees to get "real" jobs.
When I was on the staff at Caltech, the 'joke' was: once the asian kids can get into Harvard law school - we, and American science, are screwed.

[justajane]

I believe that if you look at the ethnic diversity in STEM and professional programs, you will see more folks who are second generation Canadians than those whose families have been here longer.   Families who remember poverty will work much harder to avoid it.

Or the Asian kids aren't going to automatically get a VC job in daddy's office so had better get "real" degrees to get "real" jobs.
When I was on the staff at Caltech, the 'joke' was: once the asian kids can get into Harvard law school - we, and American science, are screwed.

One thing that wasn't really confronted in the Silicon Valley article itself but was mentioned a few times in the comments is that Palo Alto is about 45% Asian. Not all the students who committed suicide were Asian, but I wonder if the "Tiger Mom" tendencies present within the culture can really do a number on some of the kids. By asserting that there are only a few roads to success (STEM fields, doctors, etc.), this could be really damaging to a kid that might want to do or be someone else.

One interesting point in the article was about how administrators and counselors had noticed much less rebellion in the kids they advise today. Rebellion and doing counter to what your parents expect can actually be healthy. But apparently less and less kids are doing this, in large part because they have internalized the morals of the parents so much that they don't realize or think there are alternate paths to happiness. Who knows if it is helicopter parents or other things at work, but I found this interesting. So, essentially, when they are depressed or unhappy with the path they are currently on, instead of bucking the trend and doing something else, some of them choose to end their lives instead.

[lbmustache]

I believe that if you look at the ethnic diversity in STEM and professional programs, you will see more folks who are second generation Canadians than those whose families have been here longer.   Families who remember poverty will work much harder to avoid it.

Or the Asian kids aren't going to automatically get a VC job in daddy's office so had better get "real" degrees to get "real" jobs.
When I was on the staff at Caltech, the 'joke' was: once the asian kids can get into Harvard law school - we, and American science, are screwed.

One thing that wasn't really confronted in the Silicon Valley article itself but was mentioned a few times in the comments is that Palo Alto is about 45% Asian. Not all the students who committed suicide were Asian, but I wonder if the "Tiger Mom" tendencies present within the culture can really do a number on some of the kids. By asserting that there are only a few roads to success (STEM fields, doctors, etc.), this could be really damaging to a kid that might want to do or be someone else.

One interesting point in the article was about how administrators and counselors had noticed much less rebellion in the kids they advise today. Rebellion and doing counter to what your parents expect can actually be healthy. But apparently less and less kids are doing this, in large part because they have internalized the morals of the parents so much that they don't realize or think there are alternate paths to happiness. Who knows if it is helicopter parents or other things at work, but I found this interesting. So, essentially, when they are depressed or unhappy with the path they are currently on, instead of bucking the trend and doing something else, some of them choose to end their lives instead.

I'm sure part of it is culture, and part of it is having grown up during a recession + current attitudes. They've probably seen what a lack of money or work can do, and now the popular line of thought is "liberal arts degrees are useless," (see this forum for proof).

If you are confronted with: 1) pushy parents 2) the fear of not having money/a job 3) constant reinforcement that anything outside of STEM (I'm including business etc. in the Math portion of this) is useless - well then the choice is obvious, isn't it? Look at some of the recent threads here: "Earning 100k+ and miserable," "Unhappy at work but I earn a lot," and what is the advice? Stay at your job and suck it up and find enriching stuff outside of work. *shrugs*

FWIW, I am Asian and majored in Communication (humanities/liberal arts). I am 27 and maybe make around 40k, have very little job stability and almost zero benefits. I have a Master's degree and I teach college.

My brother is 21, has a B.S. in accounting - which he does not love - and got a job with PWC for 60k + benefits.

If presented with the choice between those two, I guarantee almost everyone here would say to do accounting, earn the $$$, and retire early, no matter if you are miserable for the 20 years you do have to work.

[obstinate]

It's a competitive world out there, hopefully somebody's kids are willing to work hard to compete.  Otherwise our staches aren't going to be worth what they used to be.   In fact my CAD holdings are already not worth what they used to be.

Uh, I don't get it. Why?

[Moustachienne]

TBH the Asian kids/Tiger Mother influences are a red herring as the article points out.  The same stresses are found in other cities and WASP contexts.  I've certainly seen it in the kids of non Asian friends who are doctors and lawyers, occupations noted in the article.  I'd say at least stereotypical Asian parents are up front about expectations, parents of other backgrounds pretend it's OK to find your passion lol, then are very disapproving when that passion doesn't lead to med or law school.

I've also seen the pressures be tougher on the boys.  Maybe there's still some expectation that girls don't need high dollar "success" but in which case the pressure is to marry the success. No escape!

It's like some weird escalator to higher and higher expectations and pressures.  No wonder kids want to jump off.

These are sad, sad articles.

[Bolshevik Artizan]

there is something in all of this. A friend is a paediatric oncologist (horrible job, but he does it for the children - really) and is German. When he came to Canada he had to resit his medical exams to make sure he was of the required standard - despite 15+ years clinical and lab experience.

Anyway - point is, a lot of the other people he was sitting the exams with were on SUICIDE WATCH because they came from cultures in which they may as well kill themselves if they were to fail their medical degrees in Canada. Weird, sick and sad.

Oh and to the poster who has a BA in Communications above: I was even worse! I had two degrees in literature, took a job I hated to please my family, did my 20 years and now consider I am starting my life for real at 45. It's never, never too late. And if I look back, what would I tell young people? I find that a very difficult and highly nuanced question to answer...

[justajane]

I'd say at least stereotypical Asian parents are up front about expectations, parents of other backgrounds pretend it's OK to find your passion lol, then are very disapproving when that passion doesn't lead to med or law school.

That's true. I remember the author saying it was a red herring, which is possible, but I'm not sure. I guess Palo Alto is just a tragic confluence of multiple factors, including even practical ones like the fact that there is a train that runs right next to one of the schools in question every 20 minutes. You can't discount the way such things effect suicide rates, as in the case of Cornell, which has multiple gorges from which suicidal students can jump.

Having lost a friend to suicide this summer, I do find myself preoccupied with these types of questions. It doesn't help that I also have three boys, and that the suicide rate for male teens is multiple times higher than that of teenage girls.

I went to a top tier university, and while I majored in a "useless" degree in a foreign language and spent most of my time with other students who were interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake and had a true love of learning, I can attest to the pressure I sensed from those in other degree paths. Failure was not an option. Half of my freshman class had said they intended to be pre-med. I don't know if that was because we have a Top 5 medical school or if that is that way at all top tier universities, but it was intense.

I think it has gotten even worse at these types of institutions. I went to college in the 90s. If I applied to my alma mater today with the same scores, I wouldn't get in today. I got in just under the wire when you didn't need 1,000 extracurriculars and top SAT scores to even be considered.

now the popular line of thought is "liberal arts degrees are useless," (see this forum for proof).

 

This is one thing that really annoys me about this forum - the sense that people are stupid for majoring in anything other than something in STEM. Corporate America is chock full of people who majored in the humanities. My husband, who majored in film studies/communications, makes 90K at a financial institution. It might take you longer to get there, but the world needs well-rounded people who can write and communicate effectively.

[arebelspy]

One thing that annoys me on the forum is when people generalize about what "the forum" believes.  ;)

Many of us here defend liberal arts degrees.

I was a philosophy major (poly sci minor).  I wouldn't change a thing.

[Dee18]

Not too long ago I was talking about this with a friend who is an MD and has a graduate degree in statistics.  He pointed out that high achieving parents expect their children to be as smart as they are, but statistically a child is likely to be closer to the mean in IQ than to the 2 parents with high IQs.  This can make it terrifically frustrating for the child who has a harder time academically than his parents did.

I was the first in my extended family to go to graduate school.  Just by going I achieved a new milestone, so it was easy to surpass my family's expectations.  When parents have already achieved those milestones, the children may feel the bar is set awfully high for them.

[Bracken_Joy]

now the popular line of thought is "liberal arts degrees are useless," (see this forum for proof).

 

This is one thing that really annoys me about this forum - the sense that people are stupid for majoring in anything other than something in STEM. Corporate America is chock full of people who majored in the humanities. My husband, who majored in film studies/communications, makes 90K at a financial institution. It might take you longer to get there, but the world needs well-rounded people who can write and communicate effectively.

The reverse of this can be true as well. My first degree was a hard science. And I ended up with a TERRIBLE job (on feet, physically demanding- even more demanding that my current job) making $13/hr and working 55+ hour weeks with rotating shifts including night shift. So STEM fields are also not the panacea for upward mobility that people seem to assume, either. (Of course, my second degree was in nursing, so still pretty STEM-ish, but honestly a lot of the coursework had a very liberal-arts feel to it).

[Yankuba]

I'd say at least stereotypical Asian parents are up front about expectations, parents of other backgrounds pretend it's OK to find your passion lol, then are very disapproving when that passion doesn't lead to med or law school.

That's true. I remember the author saying it was a red herring, which is possible, but I'm not sure. I guess Palo Alto is just a tragic confluence of multiple factors, including even practical ones like the fact that there is a train that runs right next to one of the schools in question every 20 minutes. You can't discount the way such things effect suicide rates, as in the case of Cornell, which has multiple gorges from which suicidal students can jump.

Having lost a friend to suicide this summer, I do find myself preoccupied with these types of questions. It doesn't help that I also have three boys, and that the suicide rate for male teens is multiple times higher than that of teenage girls.

I went to a top tier university, and while I majored in a "useless" degree in a foreign language and spent most of my time with other students who were interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake and had a true love of learning, I can attest to the pressure I sensed from those in other degree paths. Failure was not an option. Half of my freshman class had said they intended to be pre-med. I don't know if that was because we have a Top 5 medical school or if that is that way at all top tier universities, but it was intense.

I think it has gotten even worse at these types of institutions. I went to college in the 90s. If I applied to my alma mater today with the same scores, I wouldn't get in today. I got in just under the wire when you didn't need 1,000 extracurriculars and top SAT scores to even be considered.

now the popular line of thought is "liberal arts degrees are useless," (see this forum for proof).

 

This is one thing that really annoys me about this forum - the sense that people are stupid for majoring in anything other than something in STEM. Corporate America is chock full of people who majored in the humanities. My husband, who majored in film studies/communications, makes 90K at a financial institution. It might take you longer to get there, but the world needs well-rounded people who can write and communicate effectively.

If you go to a top 25 school then it doesn't matter what you study - the biggest and best companies will recruit you even if you majored in the humanitues. Wall Street is filled with English and Poli Sci majors - who went to Ivy League schools. But for people who went to normal or blue collar colleges you really do have to major in something marketable to have a prayer.

The article and thread are both very depressing.

[scottish]

Quote from: scottish on Today at 12:53:23 PM
It's a competitive world out there, hopefully somebody's kids are willing to work hard to compete.  Otherwise our staches aren't going to be worth what they used to be.   In fact my CAD holdings are already not worth what they used to be.
Uh, I don't get it. Why?

Maybe my view is a little simplistic.  If we can't build competitive products that we can sell worldwide it makes it harder to import products from other countries because we don't have as much foreign exchange.   Then the CAD drops in value and inflation increases.

Lots of examples of this.  BlackBerry being replaced by iPhone and Android.  Motorola phones in general.   Electronics manufacturing (Foxconn, etc.), has moved to Asia.    These were all good middle class jobs when I started out.   But for various reasons we didn't compete well and now these industries have gone away.

[Moustachienne]

Depressing, yes.  But we don't need to give in to the idea that joining the rat race is necessary or that working on Wall Street should be our goal.  There's a RICH world of other experiences out there and Mr MMM is waving us over to jump in.  Our children would benefit big time from a switch in perspective and for all of us, with or without kids, so would our inner child.  :)

I meant this post to be a positive affirmation of how the Mustachian way can free us.  I've been taken aback by the comments basically agreeing with the need to high pressure yourself and your kids.  Whew, let's fight back by creating good lives without fear.

[justajane]

One thing that annoys me on the forum is when people generalize about what "the forum" believes.  ;)

Haha. True, true. I guess I've just read too many "underwater basket weaving" comments in which they invariably combine this mythic major with something like history.

If you go to a top 25 school then it doesn't matter what you study - the biggest and best companies will recruit you even if you majored in the humanitues. Wall Street is filled with English and Poli Sci majors - who went to Ivy League schools. But for people who went to normal or blue collar colleges you really do have to major in something marketable to have a prayer.

The article and thread are both very depressing.

My husband went to a mediocre second (or even third) tier state school, majored in something not marketable, and has done very well for himself.  Nepotism and classism are alive and well, but that doesn't mean that you have to go to one of those schools to earn good money. He had to go through a few more steps than someone like me who went to a well known school might have to, but that doesn't mean he had to major in a field he didn't like just to make money.

I have also encountered reverse classism a few times. Just recently I was talking to some fellow parents at a kids' birthday party, and they had all gone to the main state school here. They were discussing how it was a dry campus when they were there. I brought up my own personal experience about drinking and how at orientation the administration basically said that were could do whatever we want (i.e. underage drinking and light drug use) as long as we didn't hurt anyone else.  One father at the party immediately piped up and said, "Yeah, basically they said, if you're rich enough to come here, you can do whatever you want." I was taken aback by what he said. I tried not to take offense, but it was hard not to be annoyed that he made such assumptions about me even though he didn't know me in the slightest. The only reason my parents could ever afford to send me to this school was because they were Mustachian and I grew up in an insanely frugal household - frugal in ways that people on this forum would probably not even accept.

[use2betrix]

My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life. My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways.

[mrs sideways]

The author of "Bringing Up Bebe" raised similar points: American parents are more neurotic about their children succeeding because they feel like they HAVE to succeed. In America it's hard to live on the minimum wage, it's easy to get fired, and you won't get health insurance without money or a good job, all of which means a combination of bad income and bad luck can absolutely RUIN you.

Plus, the American identity is seeped in the image of everyone standing on their parents shoulders and reaching higher. To not do better than your parents is sad, an indicator something went wrong, and raises the suspicion that your parents must have failed at something.

[franklin w. dixon]

My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life. My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways.

Thank goodness those pushovers killed themselves instead of stinking up the place with failure!

[obstinate]

Maybe my view is a little simplistic.

It is. If you're diversified outside of Canada, a weaker CAD would have a limited effect on you.

[nobodyspecial]

If you're diversified outside of Canada, a weaker CAD would have a limited effect on you.

Except you are buying foreign stocks now with a weak CDN$ and expect to sell them in the future and buy expensive stronger CDN$

[obstinate]

Sure. Diversifying always carries some additional risk. If you're 100% in AAPL, diversifying exposes you to relative risk that the market underperforms AAPL. Nonetheless, it behooves you to diversify.

But, if CDN is stronger in the future, at least there's a decent chance that your domestic holdings have appreciated substantially.

[marty998]

One thing that annoys me on the forum is when people generalize about what "the forum" believes.  ;)

Many of us here defend liberal arts degrees.

I was a philosophy major (poly sci minor).  I wouldn't change a thing.

You humanities thinkers confuse us STEM number crunchers with all your poetic prose. We don't understand it, therefore we just build a bridge (T & E), blow it up (S & M) and throw the pieces at you!

[use2betrix]

My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life. My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways.

Thank goodness those pushovers killed themselves instead of stinking up the place with failure!

I have zero issue with failure, but tons of issue with people who blame their own failures on anyone else/their parents.

It's like when you hear people say, "I went to college because my parents told me to and that's why I'm underemployed with tons of student loans and in the mess I am in today."

If someone made their sole decision for their life for the next 4+ years and the cost going along with it, all because of "what their parents told them to do," without doing any real research on their own then that's their own fault 100%. Same goes for people who choose stupid majors, did you just do zero research and think because underwater basket weaving looked cool, there must also be a huge job market and good pay to go along with it?

I see so many people blaming their failures on others, which to me only shows a real look at their character and likely the reason they're failing in the first place.

[justajane]

Same goes for people who choose stupid majors, did you just do zero research and think because underwater basket weaving looked cool, there must also be a huge job market and good pay to go along with it?

I knew it wouldn't take long, arebelspy. :)

[franklin w. dixon]

My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life. My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways.

Thank goodness those pushovers killed themselves instead of stinking up the place with failure!

I have zero issue with failure, but tons of issue with people who blame their own failures on anyone else/their parents.

It's like when you hear people say, "I went to college because my parents told me to and that's why I'm underemployed with tons of student loans and in the mess I am in today."

If someone made their sole decision for their life for the next 4+ years and the cost going along with it, all because of "what their parents told them to do," without doing any real research on their own then that's their own fault 100%. Same goes for people who choose stupid majors, did you just do zero research and think because underwater basket weaving looked cool, there must also be a huge job market and good pay to go along with it?

I see so many people blaming their failures on others, which to me only shows a real look at their character and likely the reason they're failing in the first place.

That's why they're so admirable for taking responsibility, and fucking killing themselves. Can you hear yourself talk, or is your entire head just a loudspeaker blaring PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. NO SYMPATHY FROM ME. SUCK A FAT FUCK, EVERYONE ELSE in all directions at all times?

[kite]

Fascinating.  The quotes near the end of the Rosen piece on suicide are apt.  We really don't know a whole lot.  The human instinct is to see patterns, to identify cause & effect so as to take corrective action, to seek someone or something to blame, or to zero in on a feature of the victim  (or victim's family) that is different from us so we can believe it can't and won't happen to us.  But randomness is a tricky beast.  Luck (good/bad) has a greater influence that we can account for with our intuitive minds.
That tragedy strikes the affluent should not be a surprise.  It always has. 

[franklin w. dixon]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

[justajane]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Even in adults, I think it's important to recognize that there are external factors over which an individual often has no control that can and often do lead them to suicide. We'll never know what factors exactly led my friend to kill himself, but one overriding issue he had was growing up in poverty (so the opposite end of this discussion). He eventually ended up as a working class academic who felt marginalized because of his class background. What's the point in saying he should have gotten over it or that ultimately it was his responsibility to take life by the balls and ignore the comments and prejudices he encountered?

Depression, combined with marginalization, can be a toxic combination, especially in young adults or children. Eighteen is not really adulthood, even if you can vote. Very few eighteen year olds have the perspective on life to realize the ways in which they can endure isolating or depressing realities. And, no, it's not all in their heads, just because their parents make a shit ton of money and they seemingly have the world at their feet. And like the OP keeps bringing up, here on this website we have an alternate philosophy in which success and happiness don't hinge on what you do or how much you make. This could be a powerful tool to buck the trend.

[franklin w. dixon]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Even in adults, I think it's important to recognize that there are external factors over which an individual often has no control that can and often do lead them to suicide. We'll never know what factors exactly led my friend to kill himself, but one overriding issue he had was growing up in poverty (so the opposite end of this discussion). He eventually ended up as a working class academic who felt marginalized because of his class background. What's the point in saying he should have gotten over it or that ultimately it was his responsibility to take life by the balls and ignore the comments and prejudices he encountered?

Depression, combined with marginalization, can be a toxic combination, especially in young adults or children. Eighteen is not really adulthood, even if you can vote. Very few eighteen year olds have the perspective on life to realize the ways in which they can endure isolating or depressing realities. And, no, it's not all in their heads, just because their parents make a shit ton of money and they seemingly have the world at their feet. And like the OP keeps bringing up, here on this website we have an alternate philosophy in which success and happiness don't hinge on what you do or how much you make. This could be a powerful tool to buck the trend.

It's sort of remarkable that suicide rates are systematically higher in middle and high income countries than in poor ones https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Sucide_rate.PNG

I think it's actually pretty straightforward -- capitalism abolishes kinship (How many 2nd and 3rd cousins to most Americans know well, compared to people in poor countries? How many Americans live with extended family members? Etc.) and it breeds neurosis, because everyone teetering on the knife's edge of having their profession disruptivated by appification is actually pitched as a feature of capitalism. That's what the articles are getting at regarding the barely-barely open window of smushing your kid into a lucrative life path. When people are alienated and agonizingly stressed all the time it is bad for their brains, who knew?

[thurston howell iv]

One thing that annoys me on the forum is when people generalize about what "the forum" believes.  ;)

Haha. True, true. I guess I've just read too many "underwater basket weaving" comments in which they invariably combine this mythic major with something like history.






Actually... http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/photos/15-bizarre-college-courses/underwater-basket-weaving

[dude]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

+1

[arebelspy]

Same goes for people who choose stupid majors, did you just do zero research and think because underwater basket weaving looked cool, there must also be a huge job market and good pay to go along with it?

I knew it wouldn't take long, arebelspy. :)

Sure, people say that here. But I think less here than in the general population.

I wasn't claiming no one ever said that, but that generalizing that belief to "the forum believes X" is silly.  The forum population, as a whole, is quite diverse and varied.

[use2betrix]

My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life. My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways.

Thank goodness those pushovers killed themselves instead of stinking up the place with failure!

I have zero issue with failure, but tons of issue with people who blame their own failures on anyone else/their parents.

It's like when you hear people say, "I went to college because my parents told me to and that's why I'm underemployed with tons of student loans and in the mess I am in today."

If someone made their sole decision for their life for the next 4+ years and the cost going along with it, all because of "what their parents told them to do," without doing any real research on their own then that's their own fault 100%. Same goes for people who choose stupid majors, did you just do zero research and think because underwater basket weaving looked cool, there must also be a huge job market and good pay to go along with it?

I see so many people blaming their failures on others, which to me only shows a real look at their character and likely the reason they're failing in the first place.

That's why they're so admirable for taking responsibility, and fucking killing themselves. Can you hear yourself talk, or is your entire head just a loudspeaker blaring PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. NO SYMPATHY FROM ME. SUCK A FAT FUCK, EVERYONE ELSE in all directions at all times?

What? Where did I mention or even insinuate anything to do with suicide. Suicide is a terrible thing, and something I had no intention of discussing. You do sound depressed to be taking things such out of context and turning them into somethings suicide related. When you are through wiping the tears off your keyboard you may want to seek some help.

Same goes for people who choose stupid majors, did you just do zero research and think because underwater basket weaving looked cool, there must also be a huge job market and good pay to go along with it?

I knew it wouldn't take long, arebelspy. :)

I don't care what major anyone chooses. I changed my major several times. My point was only that no one should hold anyone else accountable for their success/failure in school and their career.

[arebelspy]

If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't generalize and insult everyone who takes those other majors you don't approve of.

You'd take issues with the people claiming to be victims, which clearly isn't everyone of any particular majors.

[use2betrix]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Who mentions anything remotely close to that? If directed at me I'm unsure how my words became so misconstrued. They are pretty black and white. I was merely referring to ones success or failure being no real fault of anyone other than the individual.

I was quoted in another text as if I was referring to what you said, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

[use2betrix]

If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't generalize and insult everyone who takes those other majors you don't approve of.

You'd take issues with the people claiming to be victims, which clearly isn't everyone of any particular majors.

Which majors exactly did I say I didn't approve of, underwater basket weaving? I don't think that's a real major.

Like I said, I don't care what someone majored in, just as long as they don't blame it on someone else. Like, "oh I majored in xxx and I'm failing at life and I'm blaming it on my teachers and guidance counselor."

That's what doesn't work for me.

There are clearly degrees in which success in regards to jobs and monetary reimbursement is much higher. If someone chooses something they "love" even though it's obviously a risk, don't blame others that you aren't doing as well.

[franklin w. dixon]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Who mentions anything remotely close to that? If directed at me I'm unsure how my words became so misconstrued. They are pretty black and white. I was merely referring to ones success or failure being no real fault of anyone other than the individual.

I was quoted in another text as if I was referring to what you said, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

The thread is about people who are so pressured and depressed that they frequently commit suicide and you marched into it with a smug ass brag about your personal income and declared, "One's success or failure is no fault of anyone other than the individual." Basically I think we have an answer to the question about whether you can hear what you sound like to everyone else.

[franklin w. dixon]

"What's the matter, Fred? You're looking down," said Trixr.

"It's been a rough month," said Fred. "My cousin committed suicide."

"She probably chose the wrong major, lol," said Trixr. "I'm rich bitch!"

Later, Trixr wonders why he keeps getting "misconstrued."

[use2betrix]

I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Who mentions anything remotely close to that? If directed at me I'm unsure how my words became so misconstrued. They are pretty black and white. I was merely referring to ones success or failure being no real fault of anyone other than the individual.

I was quoted in another text as if I was referring to what you said, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

The thread is about people who are so pressured and depressed that they frequently commit suicide and you marched into it with a smug ass brag about your personal income and declared, "One's success or failure is no fault of anyone other than the individual." Basically I think we have an answer to the question about whether you can hear what you sound like to everyone else.

While that might have been the main point there were several other members who went off on tangents that I was referring to.

Again, my post had nothing to do with suicide, as I mentioned and as you can blatantly see in my post, because it was never mentioned.

Having been hospitalized for over a week due to depression as a teen, I'm pretty sure I can relate as much as most anyone here, if not more.

[justajane]

While the term affluenza gets a bad wrap because it has been used as a legal excuse, I do think the term is appropriate to describe some of these upwardly social mobile communities in which teenage drug abuse and other problems appear to be more rampant. Although I would imagine you would need to separate the causes out - consumerism versus the entrenched expectations that professional success is the only option.


Arebelspy, I'm noticing based on this thread and the Paris thread that generalizations really get your goat. I can respect that. Although generalizations are not all bad and can be useful on occasion, it's just hard to accurately quantify them, since we all generalize differently and see communities and what they say differently. In my analysis of things, I likely fall back on them too often.

On topic, Palo Alto students were absolutely pissed about how the author of the Atlantic piece generalized about them, but in order to engage with cultural trends at some point you have to generalize.

[franklin w. dixon]

While that might have been the main point there were several other members who went off on tangents that I was referring to.

Again, my post had nothing to do with suicide, as I mentioned and as you can blatantly see in my post, because it was never mentioned.

Having been hospitalized for over a week due to depression as a teen, I'm pretty sure I can relate as much as most anyone here, if not more.

I really hate it when people do this weaselly backtrack bullshit so I'm going to call it out specifically:

You are lying. The claim that you were referring to "several other members who went off on tangents" is not true. Your first post in this thread began with, "My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life," which was clearly a response to the overall topic of the thread: the immense pressure put on certain children. You weren't quoting anyone and you weren't addressing anything tangential. You began by directly framing your biography in contrast to the articles in the OP. So far so good.

You then continued, still biographically: "My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k." At best, this is an argument that outcomes are best when children are not pressured. At worst, it's a braggart dropping his income like a kid pulling out the holographic Charizard at recess.

Finally, and bizarrely, you turned your post into a non-sequitur attack on young people's life choices: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways."

There is no way to read this as anything other than an attack on the children and young adults in the articles. You aren't addressing anything new or different. You weren't responding to someone else's post. You just decided that this thread at this time was the right place to randomly insult 18-year-olds for making incorrect choices.

For Christ's sake, at least own your words. Don't give me this feeble politician nonsense like, "Oh, uh, I, uh, wasn't referring to THOSE children." Yes you were.

[arebelspy]

Arebelspy, I'm noticing based on this thread and the Paris thread that generalizations really get your goat. I can respect that. Although generalizations are not all bad and can be useful on occasion, it's just hard to accurately quantify them, since we all generalize differently and see communities and what they say differently. In my analysis of things, I likely fall back on them too often.

Generalizations get EVERYONE'S goat.  Because all generalizations are false.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist those two.)

Yes, I think generalizations almost always detract from a conversation rather than leading to understanding.

[use2betrix]

While that might have been the main point there were several other members who went off on tangents that I was referring to.

Again, my post had nothing to do with suicide, as I mentioned and as you can blatantly see in my post, because it was never mentioned.

Having been hospitalized for over a week due to depression as a teen, I'm pretty sure I can relate as much as most anyone here, if not more.

I really hate it when people do this weaselly backtrack bullshit so I'm going to call it out specifically:

You are lying. The claim that you were referring to "several other members who went off on tangents" is not true. Your first post in this thread began with, "My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life," which was clearly a response to the overall topic of the thread: the immense pressure put on certain children. You weren't quoting anyone and you weren't addressing anything tangential. You began by directly framing your biography in contrast to the articles in the OP. So far so good.

You then continued, still biographically: "My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k." At best, this is an argument that outcomes are best when children are not pressured. At worst, it's a braggart dropping his income like a kid pulling out the holographic Charizard at recess.

Finally, and bizarrely, you turned your post into a non-sequitur attack on young people's life choices: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people are 18 when they go to college. While their parents may influence, they are ultimately adults and in charge of their own lives forward. I don't take the, "oh my parents fault," as an excuse past that. All that shows is you're a pushover and probably wouldn't have succeeded much anyways."

There is no way to read this as anything other than an attack on the children and young adults in the articles. You aren't addressing anything new or different. You weren't responding to someone else's post. You just decided that this thread at this time was the right place to randomly insult 18-year-olds for making incorrect choices.

For Christ's sake, at least own your words. Don't give me this feeble politician nonsense like, "Oh, uh, I, uh, wasn't referring to THOSE children." Yes you were.

Weasling back would be saying I didn't say something in which I actually did. All I'm doing is telling you that your ASSUMPTION of what I said was wrong, and for whatever reason you are getting really worked up over this.

[franklin w. dixon]

Weasling back would be saying I didn't say something in which I actually did. All I'm doing is telling you that your ASSUMPTION of what I said was wrong, and for whatever reason you are getting really worked up over this.

Ah yes, the ultimate rejoinder, a "u mad bro" xkcd meme.

Well, yes, I'm mad, because you are being a tremendous asshole.

MOD NOTE: No, not okay, even if you are mad.

[irishbear99]

It's easy to not blame your parents when you had good parents. And it's hard to see that everyone is not so lucky. I would bet your parents are happily married, or at least content with their choices, and have high self-esteem. Most likely THEY had good parents. It's a recipe for producing well-adjusted, accomplished offspring. You are fortunate.

Many parents are not supportive and not accomplished, as yours clearly are. Many are critical, judgmental, emotionally abusive, prickly, naive, personality disordered, tired, uninformed, inexperienced, or overstretched with too many kids and too little money. Many parents had bad parents themselves and grew up to have such low self-esteem it affects all of their children. This is a pathology that can get passed down in families to varying degrees. It can mean that children are launched into adulthood with a lot of baggage in the form of shame, low self-esteem, self-doubts, lack of ambition, lack of discipline, lack of organization, tendencies toward addiction, and a host of other problems that can hinder their progress in early adult life, or even cripple it. Sometimes it means young adults flail about for a while before figuring things out. In some more insidious cases, they think they know what they'd like to do with their life but their hesitant proclamations are met with pressure, criticism, derision, skepticism, or sarcasm from their parents, and they retreat from their plans as a method of self-preservation. This is particularly a problem with people who have a parent with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a lifelong pattern that becomes hardwired and is really hard to overcome. Children - even adult children - must please their parents or face the consequences, usually in the form of emotional abuse. If you haven't experienced this type of pathology in a family, you cannot understand it.

Cheers to the lucky ones who are not crippled by their parents' inadequacies and shortcomings.

+1

Even under the best of circumstances, an 18 year old is an adult only in the legal sense, but not in any other way that matters. There's not some magic switch that turns on at the 18th birthday that suddenly imbues a person with good reasoning, judgment, or the ability to divine and understand the second- and third-order effects of one's decision making (aka, the prediction and understanding of consequences). Hell, the human brain isn't even fully developed until the early to mid 20s. It takes a lot of life experience - both good and bad - to get to a point where one is reasonably good at figuring out life. (Some people never make it to that point.)

I can attest first-hand that, when you add in the situation that JoeO mentions above, well, that throws a whole new kink in the chain.

[use2betrix]

It's easy to not blame your parents when you had good parents. And it's hard to see that everyone is not so lucky. I would bet your parents are happily married, or at least content with their choices, and have high self-esteem. Most likely THEY had good parents. It's a recipe for producing well-adjusted, accomplished offspring. You are fortunate.

Many parents are not supportive and not accomplished, as yours clearly are. Many are critical, judgmental, emotionally abusive, prickly, naive, personality disordered, tired, uninformed, inexperienced, or overstretched with too many kids and too little money. Many parents had bad parents themselves and grew up to have such low self-esteem it affects all of their children. This is a pathology that can get passed down in families to varying degrees. It can mean that children are launched into adulthood with a lot of baggage in the form of shame, low self-esteem, self-doubts, lack of ambition, lack of discipline, lack of organization, tendencies toward addiction, and a host of other problems that can hinder their progress in early adult life, or even cripple it. Sometimes it means young adults flail about for a while before figuring things out. In some more insidious cases, they think they know what they'd like to do with their life but their hesitant proclamations are met with pressure, criticism, derision, skepticism, or sarcasm from their parents, and they retreat from their plans as a method of self-preservation. This is particularly a problem with people who have a parent with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a lifelong pattern that becomes hardwired and is really hard to overcome. Children - even adult children - must please their parents or face the consequences, usually in the form of emotional abuse. If you haven't experienced this type of pathology in a family, you cannot understand it.

Cheers to the lucky ones who are not crippled by their parents' inadequacies and shortcomings.

+1

Even under the best of circumstances, an 18 year old is an adult only in the legal sense, but not in any other way that matters. There's not some magic switch that turns on at the 18th birthday that suddenly imbues a person with good reasoning, judgment, or the ability to divine and understand the second- and third-order effects of one's decision making (aka, the prediction and understanding of consequences). Hell, the human brain isn't even fully developed until the early to mid 20s. It takes a lot of life experience - both good and bad - to get to a point where one is reasonably good at figuring out life. (Some people never make it to that point.)

I can attest first-hand that, when you add in the situation that JoeO mentions above, well, that throws a whole new kink in the chain.

Both very good points, something easy to take for granted.

[Moustachienne]

I'd love to see this thread start filling up with stories of people who bucked social pressures re "prestige" or "achievement" to create rich lives for themselves.  Even better if you have examples of how your parents fostered those opportunities for you!

I'll start.  I have 3 degrees and work in academic administration.  Women of my generation married "up" or at least lateral so doctor/lawyer/even teacher :) as husband material was expected.  All my friends' husbands have at least one degree and most are "professionals".

My husband has a tech diploma and is incredibly talented with his head and hands.  He works with physicists and engineers on scientific/precision instruments.   He is the best read person I know and he is always exploring new ideas and projects.

But the best thing is that his strong sense of self, divorced from degrees and so-called professions, liberated me from these markers as well.  We have a very satisfying life.

My parents?  They were disappointed at first lol, but got over it.

[use2betrix]

I went out of the norm compared to most my family. My mom, dad, brother, sister, 2 aunts, their husbands, and 5 out of their 6 children all have bachelors or masters degrees. I was a Junior at a big division 1 college when I decided to leave school and go to a 7 month technical school. My other 1 cousin without the degree also went through the same technical school. Needless to say, my decision was not especially popular among my family and friends and it took a lot of convincing that I was making the right choice. It has paid off and I don't regret the decision at all.