Author Topic: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)  (Read 33270 times)

Neustache

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2015, 11:33:43 AM »
Goodness, I love my parents.

I don't recall them pressuring me to do anything, ever.  I'm a control freak compared to them, and I have to really back off a lot of the time and think of how they raised me and then try to do what they did (not because I turned out awesome, but because I think their way was just really good!)

I don't think they ever even asked me what I was going to do post high school.  I ended up procrastinating and going to the local community college and then transferring.  I did know that going away wouldn't be an option - too expensive for my working class parents.

My husband and I both have bachelor's degrees, and we both agree that our kids don't need college.  If they want it, fine, but they don't have to.  We hope to instill in them that they can do whatever they want as long as they are willing to sacrifice for it (i.e. having roommates to pay rent, etc.).  I hope our kids don't rebel and become super high achievers (although I guess there are worse ways to rebel! ha!)

I feel really sorry for those kids who felt so pressured that suicide seemed like the only way out.  Ugh. 

Napoleon

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2015, 11:52:49 AM »
I went to a good school and had a high IQ and parents who cared about me. Academics came easily to me and I was involved in sport and drama, and dabbled in a few other things like debating. I spent the whole of high school depressed. I was convinced I was a worthless scumbag and didn't deserve anything I got and it was only a matter of time before someone found out I was not as clever as everyone thought and then I'd be humiliated and alone and unloved forever.

My armour cracked when I was 17 and applying to university. I wanted to apply for a subject I wasn't doing for A Levels and my mother told me to go and talk to the head of that subject about it. I freaked. I was convinced the teacher would tell me I couldn't do it because I wasn't good enough. Thankfully the stress made me physically ill enough that I had a week off school. I totally sympathise with wishing you were anorexic or had a "real" illness or problem so you could just take a legitimate break.

That week was good because it actually gave me five minutes to sit down and think about what I wanted for the first time ever. I so desperately wanted to please my parents and make them proud of me. I don't ever recall hearing the actual words "I am proud of you" or "I love you", even though I know that they are proud of me and love me. They just fail totally at demonstrating affection, even though they are not unkind or stand-offish - I realise that now but you can't see that as a child. So the day I got my AS results I told my mother I wanted to go to art school rather than university. She told me I had ruined her day and would end up living in poverty.

Shelved that dream, got into a top university and did my degree. I had waited for years to finally get out of my parents home and start living my own life but it turned out I was still the same insecure person inside and still burdened with the weight of everyone else's expectations. Started seeing a psychiatrist three months after matriculating, attempted suicide after six months. Ended up in A&E and got out of being sectioned by lying through my teeth about absolutely everything. University phoned my parents against my wishes. When I went home for the holidays my mother tried to "help" me by getting me to eat right, sleep regularly and do some exercise. I get that she thought she was being kind but I just wanted to lie in bed and pretend I was dead. My family never asked why I tried to kill myself.

Two years of meds and therapy and I graduated. Shortly before finals I was applying to all the "good" graduate jobs and thought I'd have one last go at art school. Picked one school, the best one, applied and interviewed. I was offered a place. I accepted and decided to give it my best shot because I was the first time in my life I had ever done something just because I wanted to. Graduated from art school two years ago and now I am making an OK career out of it.

The point of my story is that while you are a teenager living at home and going to school, you are totally blinkered by what you are used to. I did not know that there was anything else I could do, and when I did think about doing something else I didn't know how to do it. I had no idea how to get an apprenticeship or find a low-key job. Being in that "must achieve" bubble all the time really fucks with your thinking. And then when I was suddenly "released" from it at university I didn't know how to cope. I had never been shown how to do any life skills or how to study properly (you don't need to think at school to pass exams). It was like going from prison into total freedom when you've been institutionalised. It took me two years to even start figuring out who I was and what I wanted to be and to separate my dreams from my parents' dreams.

My parents never punished me for doing badly or explicitly told me I had to get all As. I just knew. I don't know what would have happened if I had got a B because I never got one. One time I got a C in one module and got an A overall and my mother wanted me to retake that module to get a higher A. WTF?! I told her I wouldn't do it, but that was so hard to do. There was just this expectation that I would succeed. This started early - I remember crying at age eight because I did badly on one maths test and was so ashamed of what my parents would think of me.

There is a strong analogy with this and with 'seeing the light' of Mustachianism. Until someone explains to you that you don't have to spend everything every month and that it's OK to keep your car when you've paid it off, it just doesn't occur to you. Then, when someone has explained it, you can't imagine how you stayed blind for so long. It seems crazy now, but I really did not see any alternative at the time. It is still an effort to push back at my parents now, but not living in the same house as them makes a huge difference. I still have an instinctive fear of failure and I have to make an active effort to show my failures to people and not try to hide them.

I am hesitant to have children because I don't want them to be subjected to that kind of misery, and I'm worried that I would subconsciously transfer that ridiculous expectation to them. My parents always wanted me to be happy, and I don't think they realised what they were doing. I discovered the Raised by Narcissists reddit a while ago and a lot of it rings true about my mother. It helps to read the posts because it validates my feelings at the time, and helps me believe it WAS their fault that I was so worried and anxious about achievement all the time and not mine. How can you blame an eight-year-old for worrying about school? I am still getting my shit together on the "personal responsibility" bandwagon, but I give myself a free pass on everything that happened while I was living with my parents. None of that was my fault, and most of the stuff that happened at university (when I was still transitioning out of that mindset) wasn't my fault either. I am now able to stand up and take control over my own life, but I'm not blaming myself for crumbling under past pressure.

justajane

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2015, 12:29:09 PM »
My parents always wanted me to be happy, and I don't think they realised what they were doing.

My story is similar but with a very different academic trajectory. In my case, I stayed in my Ph.D. program and was miserably depressed for years and years, in large part because I had internalized the values of my parents about education. No one in my family has ever made a lot of money, but we've always been highly educated and valued knowledge. This sounds good on its face, but the pinnacle of success in my parent's minds is that title "Dr.", even if it's of the non-lucrative variety like I have.

After my qualifying exams and about three years into the program, I was miserable. I thought I would love the dissertation writing process and the years of research. Turns out I didn't. I remember many days of not being able to get out of bed. My days had no structure. I was alone all the time. I remember my husband saying, "You know, you don't have to do this. You can quit and do something else." But it wasn't an option. I had this fear that quitting would spiral me into even deeper depression, and I knew how much it meant for my parents, based on the number of times they had bragged about me to other people. In hindsight, I'm sure they would have been fine with me quitting. But at the time, it didn't seem like it was an option.

For this reason, the girl in the Palo Alto suicide article -- the one who attempted suicide but failed and lived to tell her story -- really resonated with me. She was so overwhelmed in high school but didn't see it as an option to quit any of the activities and courses that were making her miserable and sleep deprived. She didn't realize that quitting is not failure. And that quitting something can lead to freedom. If I couldn't do this at 28 years old, how can we expect 15 and 16 years olds to have that kind of courage and perspective, especially when we create this prevailing narrative that quitting something equals failure?

irishbear99

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2015, 01:27:46 PM »
I did not know that there was anything else I could do, and when I did think about doing something else I didn't know how to do it. ... It took me two years to even start figuring out who I was and what I wanted to be and to separate my dreams from my parents' dreams.


Napoleon,
All of what you wrote spoke to me, especially what I've pulled out above. I'm so sorry you went through that.

The ONLY thing that mattered in my family was the appearance of a perfect family. That meant being the perfect child, who got perfect grades, and was perfectly behaved, who would go on to get the perfect job, perfect spouse and children, and continue to be the perfect (adult) child her whole life. In between all this perfect-ness, behind closed doors, any failure to project the image - no matter how slight - resulted in rage. There were several sessions a week, the extra-special ones I was woken up for because apparently the most efficient way to drive home the point of my failure was to wake me at 2 am. Of course, after a night of sleep deprivation, I had to put on the perfect face for school the next day.

I fled as soon as I was able, but it took a good decade plus lots of therapy to un-fuck the fucked-up message I had internalized as a child. At 18, I had no idea how to be an adult. How could I, when I was raised to be a pretty porcelain doll. Now that I'm nearing middle age, I'm pretty damn happy and don't care whether other people think I'm perfect. (Mostly. I do still slip up at times.)

I feel so much empathy for those kids who feel the only way out is suicide. I wish I could tell them that it does get better...or at least, it CAN get better.

doubled85

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2015, 02:22:42 PM »
I believe that if you look at the ethnic diversity in STEM and professional programs, you will see more folks who are second generation Canadians than those whose families have been here longer.   Families who remember poverty will work much harder to avoid it.
Or the Asian kids aren't going to automatically get a VC job in daddy's office so had better get "real" degrees to get "real" jobs.
When I was on the staff at Caltech, the 'joke' was: once the asian kids can get into Harvard law school - we, and American science, are screwed.

One thing that wasn't really confronted in the Silicon Valley article itself but was mentioned a few times in the comments is that Palo Alto is about 45% Asian. Not all the students who committed suicide were Asian, but I wonder if the "Tiger Mom" tendencies present within the culture can really do a number on some of the kids. By asserting that there are only a few roads to success (STEM fields, doctors, etc.), this could be really damaging to a kid that might want to do or be someone else.

One interesting point in the article was about how administrators and counselors had noticed much less rebellion in the kids they advise today. Rebellion and doing counter to what your parents expect can actually be healthy. But apparently less and less kids are doing this, in large part because they have internalized the morals of the parents so much that they don't realize or think there are alternate paths to happiness. Who knows if it is helicopter parents or other things at work, but I found this interesting. So, essentially, when they are depressed or unhappy with the path they are currently on, instead of bucking the trend and doing something else, some of them choose to end their lives instead.


I'm sure part of it is culture, and part of it is having grown up during a recession + current attitudes. They've probably seen what a lack of money or work can do, and now the popular line of thought is "liberal arts degrees are useless," (see this forum for proof).

If you are confronted with: 1) pushy parents 2) the fear of not having money/a job 3) constant reinforcement that anything outside of STEM (I'm including business etc. in the Math portion of this) is useless - well then the choice is obvious, isn't it? Look at some of the recent threads here: "Earning 100k+ and miserable," "Unhappy at work but I earn a lot," and what is the advice? Stay at your job and suck it up and find enriching stuff outside of work. *shrugs*

FWIW, I am Asian and majored in Communication (humanities/liberal arts). I am 27 and maybe make around 40k, have very little job stability and almost zero benefits. I have a Master's degree and I teach college.

My brother is 21, has a B.S. in accounting - which he does not love - and got a job with PWC for 60k + benefits.

If presented with the choice between those two, I guarantee almost everyone here would say to do accounting, earn the $$$, and retire early, no matter if you are miserable for the 20 years you do have to work.

Maybe, but have you ever worked a busy season?  The attrition rate out of public accounting into "industry" is pretty high. Oh, but he has the chance to make partner and make even more bank! Ya, and PWC is only the second largest public accounting firm - lots of people want that job and you'll likely be working a long time to get there. As others have stated, taking a job purely for the money isn't a good idea.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 02:43:19 PM by doubled85 »

KisKis

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2015, 02:28:02 PM »
The ONLY thing that mattered in my family was the appearance of a perfect family. That meant being the perfect child, who got perfect grades, and was perfectly behaved, who would go on to get the perfect job, perfect spouse and children, and continue to be the perfect (adult) child her whole life. In between all this perfect-ness, behind closed doors, any failure to project the image - no matter how slight - resulted in rage. There were several sessions a week, the extra-special ones I was woken up for because apparently the most efficient way to drive home the point of my failure was to wake me at 2 am. Of course, after a night of sleep deprivation, I had to put on the perfect face for school the next day.

I fled as soon as I was able, but it took a good decade plus lots of therapy to un-fuck the fucked-up message I had internalized as a child. At 18, I had no idea how to be an adult. How could I, when I was raised to be a pretty porcelain doll. Now that I'm nearing middle age, I'm pretty damn happy and don't care whether other people think I'm perfect. (Mostly. I do still slip up at times.)

I feel so much empathy for those kids who feel the only way out is suicide. I wish I could tell them that it does get better...or at least, it CAN get better.

I'll add my voice to this.  As tempting as it is, parents need to restrain themselves from living vicariously through their children.  I was raised by a quintessential tiger mom, who was tough even by Asian standards.  Luckily (or unluckily), I was born with an irrepressible rebellious nature.  I remember being locked in the basement if I talked back or got an A-.  Actually, first I was locked outside at night, but then my screaming embarrassed my mom who though the neighbors might hear so she moved me to the basement.  (Only 5-15 minutes at a time.  This is not an "A Child Called It" story.)  The refrigerator was peppered with news and magazine articles of other successful kids as "motivation" for me.  Caucasian kids said I was being abused, but once I started meeting other Asian kids, I realized that my parents fell into the stricter end of the spectrum, but were still a cultural norm.

The problem is that my parents are not bad people.  It's not so black and white.  They genuinely did what they thought was best for me, and it was no less pressure than they put on themselves.  My parents were immigrants and are extremely successful career-wise, especially when you consider how little they started with.  They were stingy with themselves in order to pay for all my activities and lessons.  My mom drove me around everywhere, and always cooked dinner and provided healthy snacks despite working full-time.  I internalized a lot of this into feeling like I was a disappointment, and lived through one serious suicide attempt.  On the outside, I was a total success.  I won lots of awards in music, sports, and academics.  I did get into Harvard, but I chose another top 10 university in another state further away from my parents.  To this day, my parents don't know I was accepted, because they would have forced me to go.  I forged a wait list letter.

Anyways, it's all a happy ending.  I'm married now with my own kids.  I only see my parents once every two years or so by choice, but I do try to be a good daughter and call every couple of weeks.  DH, on the other hand, was by all metrics equally as academically successful, and he and his more traditionally American parents have a wonderful relationship.  I follow his lead in parenting, but sometimes it's hard to not think that my kids should be doing more.  Sometimes I still feel those old checkboxes creeping in.  Need a sport, need an instrument, some volunteer work, math/chess/debate team, and all As.  Some people manage to have it all, but if something has to go, I think I can learn to accept just healthy and happy kids.  "Normal" or "average" is not as horrifying a concept as my parents led me to believe. 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 02:37:32 PM by KisKis »

doubled85

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2015, 02:54:01 PM »
It seems that the general group has somewhat come to a consensus that parents, consciously or not, may put undue pressure on their children for a variety of reasons that can cause negative outcomes (enough qualifiers in there for everyone?). The question is then: what should parents do? Or, how do we correct that?

No kids of my own but it seems only natural for parents to guide/push/steer/whatever their off-spring toward what they believe are valuable. Think about it: a parent has been doing this for all of the child's life (eat this, not that; don't put that in your mouth; mind your P's and Q's, etc.). It doesn't just turn off when the child turns some magical age of adulthood.

justajane

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2015, 02:55:14 PM »
Is anyone watching Master of None on Netflix? Some of these stories remind me of the dynamic between Raj (Aziz Ansari) and his fictional parents on the show. What's funny is that the people who play the fictional Raj's parents are his real-life parents. But the show is really great. In terms of our discussion here, episode two is the most salient, but the whole thing really delves into societal expectations for certain immigrant groups.

KisKis

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2015, 03:12:53 PM »
It seems that the general group has somewhat come to a consensus that parents, consciously or not, may put undue pressure on their children for a variety of reasons that can cause negative outcomes (enough qualifiers in there for everyone?). The question is then: what should parents do? Or, how do we correct that?

Good job with the inoffensive summary! I don't think I can do so well with my response. There is no one size fits all parenting strategy. Every parent is a different person, and every parent with multiple offspring will tell you that what works with one child may not always work for another.  Whenever I would complain, my mom would say some variant of either, "Would you rather that I just not care?" or "I have to be your motivation because you have none of your own. Tell me how else to motivate you."  I don't know if she honestly couldn't think of any other way to behave as a parent. There are ways to be a supportive, involved parent without being pressuring.  Good parenting takes creativity and patience. Punishment should be carefully considered and consistent for the benefit of the child rather than as an outlet for the parent's frustration.  Still, easier said than done, but those are the thoughts I have had in my own quest to be a good parent.  Last but not least, remember to play together.

tthree

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2015, 05:01:03 PM »
I'd love to see this thread start filling up with stories of people who bucked social pressures re "prestige" or "achievement" to create rich lives for themselves.
A co-worker was complaining about how her 17 year old step-daughter has no ambition.  To which I replied (not to her face because I value my life, but other co-workers):"Ambition is overrated. How about we start with a baseline of being a decent human being, and work our way up from there?"

SwordGuy

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2015, 05:59:30 PM »
Rather than excuse people for making bad choices, then excusing them for making more bad choices, then excusing their children for making bad choices, ad nauseum, why not make sure that everyone gets several chances to be taught successful strategies for life?

It won't help everyone, but it at least has a chance of breaking the downward spiral.

And everyone that it helps is one less person taking up the resources those who can't help themselves truly need.

A lot of problems in life, from bad financial information to bass-ackwards beliefs about "how one should act" really can be solved if we just let people know:

1) They aren't alone, other people have had similar problems and prospered (both in money and happyness), and
2) Here are several ways that have worked for people in the past, and
3) They can do it, we believe in them.

Will it work for everyone?  No.  Will it work for many people?  Yes.   It's simply amazing what people can do when folks believe in them, set high expectations, and then help them overcome the obstacles in the way.

It's actually quite amazing how much better people can do when folks just set high expectations and believe in them.  See the Pygmalion effect for documentation on that.


Letj

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2015, 07:00:26 PM »
I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Even in adults, I think it's important to recognize that there are external factors over which an individual often has no control that can and often do lead them to suicide. We'll never know what factors exactly led my friend to kill himself, but one overriding issue he had was growing up in poverty (so the opposite end of this discussion). He eventually ended up as a working class academic who felt marginalized because of his class background. What's the point in saying he should have gotten over it or that ultimately it was his responsibility to take life by the balls and ignore the comments and prejudices he encountered?

Depression, combined with marginalization, can be a toxic combination, especially in young adults or children. Eighteen is not really adulthood, even if you can vote. Very few eighteen year olds have the perspective on life to realize the ways in which they can endure isolating or depressing realities. And, no, it's not all in their heads, just because their parents make a shit ton of money and they seemingly have the world at their feet. And like the OP keeps bringing up, here on this website we have an alternate philosophy in which success and happiness don't hinge on what you do or how much you make. This could be a powerful tool to buck the trend.
It's sort of remarkable that suicide rates are systematically higher in middle and high income countries than in poor ones https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Sucide_rate.PNG

I think it's actually pretty straightforward -- capitalism abolishes kinship (How many 2nd and 3rd cousins to most Americans know well, compared to people in poor countries? How many Americans live with extended family members? Etc.) and it breeds neurosis, because everyone teetering on the knife's edge of having their profession disruptivated by appification is actually pitched as a feature of capitalism. That's what the articles are getting at regarding the barely-barely open window of smushing your kid into a lucrative life path. When people are alienated and agonizingly stressed all the time it is bad for their brains, who knew?

So true. Some of the happiest people I have met are in developing countries.

Letj

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2015, 07:12:45 PM »
I literally cannot believe that in a thread about depression and suicide the personal responsibility brigade has arrived to declare that it's all the fault of the me-me-me dead children. What the fuck.

Even in adults, I think it's important to recognize that there are external factors over which an individual often has no control that can and often do lead them to suicide. We'll never know what factors exactly led my friend to kill himself, but one overriding issue he had was growing up in poverty (so the opposite end of this discussion). He eventually ended up as a working class academic who felt marginalized because of his class background. What's the point in saying he should have gotten over it or that ultimately it was his responsibility to take life by the balls and ignore the comments and prejudices he encountered?

Depression, combined with marginalization, can be a toxic combination, especially in young adults or children. Eighteen is not really adulthood, even if you can vote. Very few eighteen year olds have the perspective on life to realize the ways in which they can endure isolating or depressing realities. And, no, it's not all in their heads, just because their parents make a shit ton of money and they seemingly have the world at their feet. And like the OP keeps bringing up, here on this website we have an alternate philosophy in which success and happiness don't hinge on what you do or how much you make. This could be a powerful tool to buck the trend.
It's sort of remarkable that suicide rates are systematically higher in middle and high income countries than in poor ones https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Sucide_rate.PNG

I think it's actually pretty straightforward -- capitalism abolishes kinship (How many 2nd and 3rd cousins to most Americans know well, compared to people in poor countries? How many Americans live with extended family members? Etc.) and it breeds neurosis, because everyone teetering on the knife's edge of having their profession disruptivated by appification is actually pitched as a feature of capitalism. That's what the articles are getting at regarding the barely-barely open window of smushing your kid into a lucrative life path. When people are alienated and agonizingly stressed all the time it is bad for their brains, who knew?

People in poor countries are also very resilient, spend less time along and have less privacy to spend time ruminating on what's wrong with their lives. They find kinship I shared experiences and are always surrounded by family and friends. I feel that social connections is way more important for happiness than money.

okits

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2015, 12:56:33 AM »
The question is then: what should parents do? Or, how do we correct that?

I'm trying to answer this question and I'm finding it really hard.  Ultimately, my goal is to raise offspring who are happy, healthy, self-sufficient, and ethical.  But will I unthinkingly send out signals of my preferences and bias?  I think that's very hard to avoid.  My adult kid working the counter at a fast-food restaurant can be happy, healthy, self-sufficient, and ethical, but I will honestly admit that a life plan to pursue a professional career will probably attract more excitement from me, if those criteria are (mostly) met.  It is easier for me to identify with things similar to my own life, or things I know about.

I will try to communicate love and acceptance independent of achievement, and try to praise a variety of things, not just stereotypical markers of success.

I haven't managed to completely purge my upbringing and parents' expectations (and suspect I never 100% will), so how do you not raise messed up kids if you, yourself, are still kind of messed up?  I guess I'm aiming to mess them up as little as possible (kinder, gentler messing up?), and accept that some will still get through.

Bertram

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2015, 01:28:30 AM »
I do not see the added "difficulty" when the parents are rich.

My dad was a worker, my mom stayed at home. We didn't have much, but top priority for my parents was always education for us kids. Which was even more pressure when my older brother dropped out of school and even to this day earns less than my dad at an even less interesting/demanding job that he certainly will not be able to keep until retirement. My first paycheck after university in my first job was better than what my dad earned after 35years and shortly before retirement.

If parents want their kids to succeed and invest a lot into that (not always effective, sometimes counterproductive, but always to "the best of their knowledge") there's always a pressure to succeed and make something out of your life. At least when your parents have money you can expect to inherit a couple bucks or a property at some point...

So, I guess what I am saying is that kids/young adults never have it easy. But money in the family does not make it more difficult, all else being the same.

KisKis

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2015, 06:22:40 AM »
So, I guess what I am saying is that kids/young adults never have it easy. But money in the family does not make it more difficult, all else being the same.

I think the point is that money brings with it other negative parental behaviors, so "all else" is usually not the same.  When parents are earning more money, they are usually not able to be home as much to be supportive, even though they may still prioritize education.   This is why mustachian parenting appeals to me so much.  It's a prioritization of time over money.

Also,
My dad was a worker, my mom stayed at home. We didn't have much, but top priority for my parents was always education for us kids. Which was even more pressure when my older brother dropped out of school.
 

You turned out great and with the same parents, so it's difficult to understand all the variables that go into good parenting and successful results by whatever standards have been set.   

Not picking on you, but you hear this sort of thing a lot.  One kid turns out great, another missed some things along the way.  From the child's standpoint, I felt superior, like I somehow raised myself up by my own bootstraps.  Now that I am a parent, I am more at a loss.  All you can do is apply whatever lessons learned as best as you can to give your child the tools to succeed, but there are a lot of uncontrolled random variables that can enter the mix.  I just hope that I am able to stay flexible and roll with the inevitable punches.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 06:25:56 AM by KisKis »

kite

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2015, 08:41:39 AM »
It seems that the general group has somewhat come to a consensus that parents, consciously or not, may put undue pressure on their children for a variety of reasons that can cause negative outcomes (enough qualifiers in there for everyone?). The question is then: what should parents do? Or, how do we correct that?

No kids of my own but it seems only natural for parents to guide/push/steer/whatever their off-spring toward what they believe are valuable. Think about it: a parent has been doing this for all of the child's life (eat this, not that; don't put that in your mouth; mind your P's and Q's, etc.). It doesn't just turn off when the child turns some magical age of adulthood.

It may be a consensus, but in the case of suicide and depression, it isn't supported by science.  It is both cruel to pile on more guilt to grieving parents and not at all helpful towards prevention in the next family.
That consensus forms because we don't know why.  When science hasn't known why, the shorthand conclusion was that Mothers were to blame for everything from ADHD, autism, allergies, anxiety, addiction and homosexuality.  She didn't hold you the right amount, she weaned you or potty trained you at the wrong get time, etc.  Eventually, science finds physiological causes and treatments (if needed) or recognizes these as part of the human variability that doesn't need to be cured.  What gets ruled out is that Mom & Dad "caused" whatever it is by their parenting technique.
Depression is no different.
Depression strikes families who do all the right things.  The may be a genetic component.  It could be something we're all prone to when deprived of adequate rest and nutrition.  Environment plays a big role.  Environment is the common denominator in Palo Alto and also in military suicides.  External factors contribute when victims of bullying and abuse succumb to depression. 

So please, let's not come up with ideas for what parents need to do differently.  Read all the way to the end of Hanna Rosin's article to where the expert admits how much we just don't know.

justajane

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2015, 08:52:06 AM »
I don't ultimately think parents are to blame, kite, but as someone who has already "gifted" my kids with a tendency towards pretty intense depression on my side of the family, I do want to be sure that I approach their education and their happiness in ways that don't exacerbate any mental struggles they might have. Or put them in a circumstance in which they feel trapped and feel like X or Y is essential to gaining my approval.

I absolutely loved one comment from a former Palo Alto student who struggled intensely with the demands and was himself clinically depressed. His advice was simple: tell your kids you love them every day. Show affection towards them. When they are older, ask them once in a while, "Are you happy?" Or "what makes you happy?" Let them know that this is on your radar as a parent. The implication is that, if they are not happy, life can be changed.

Moustachienne

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2015, 09:44:49 AM »
Not a parent myself but speaking as a former child, the one of the good things parents can do is model being happy and satisfied themselves.  Like all of us, kids pay more attention to what role models/parents/bosses do than what they say.  Certainly we all notice gaps between words and actions.

i think this is where Mustachianism is really helpful, that is, as a challenge to be happy in yourself and to strive to improve our relationships and our world, rather than to accumulate external markers of success as ends in themselves.   

Edit: corrected typos that bugged me when I read this again.  :)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 02:15:35 PM by Moustachienne »

irishbear99

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2015, 10:00:27 AM »
Not a parent myself but speaking as a former child, the one of the good things parents can do is model being happy and satisfied themselves.  Like all of us, kids pay more attention to what role models/patents/bosses do than what they say.  Certainly we all notice gaps between words and actions.

+1 I know firsthand that having miserable parents adds a layer of stress, anxiety and tension that magnifies other negative feelings and acts as a powder keg. It's hard to be happy when you're surrounded by unhappy people. It's just another version of putting your oxygen mask on yourself before you help others.

The other thing I think parents can do is listen - genuinely listen - to their kids. Be that safe place your kids can go and confide in you. Even with the little stuff. No, especially with the little stuff. Kids know if they can't safely tell you little things, there's no way they're going to trust you with the big stuff, like "Hey Mom/Dad, I think I'm depressed."

doubled85

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2015, 06:37:17 PM »
It seems that the general group has somewhat come to a consensus that parents, consciously or not, may put undue pressure on their children for a variety of reasons that can cause negative outcomes (enough qualifiers in there for everyone?). The question is then: what should parents do? Or, how do we correct that?

No kids of my own but it seems only natural for parents to guide/push/steer/whatever their off-spring toward what they believe are valuable. Think about it: a parent has been doing this for all of the child's life (eat this, not that; don't put that in your mouth; mind your P's and Q's, etc.). It doesn't just turn off when the child turns some magical age of adulthood.

It may be a consensus, but in the case of suicide and depression, it isn't supported by science.  It is both cruel to pile on more guilt to grieving parents and not at all helpful towards prevention in the next family.
That consensus forms because we don't know why.  When science hasn't known why, the shorthand conclusion was that Mothers were to blame for everything from ADHD, autism, allergies, anxiety, addiction and homosexuality.  She didn't hold you the right amount, she weaned you or potty trained you at the wrong get time, etc.  Eventually, science finds physiological causes and treatments (if needed) or recognizes these as part of the human variability that doesn't need to be cured.  What gets ruled out is that Mom & Dad "caused" whatever it is by their parenting technique.
Depression is no different.
Depression strikes families who do all the right things.  The may be a genetic component.  It could be something we're all prone to when deprived of adequate rest and nutrition.  Environment plays a big role.  Environment is the common denominator in Palo Alto and also in military suicides.  External factors contribute when victims of bullying and abuse succumb to depression. 

So please, let's not come up with ideas for what parents need to do differently.  Read all the way to the end of Hanna Rosin's article to where the expert admits how much we just don't know.

It appears that my question may have been misunderstood. I was trying to address the influence that parents have on their children - both positive and negative. There are consequences of that influence that do not include suicide. Sure, there's plenty out there that says that parents don't have as large as an effect as we may think - Freakonomics/Super Freakonomics (can't remember which one) has an essay on this exact topic of the outcome of children based on parental input.

Let me address your point on suicide. As a survivor of suicide myself (my sister completed suicide 6 years ago to the date today while in college), I know full well that causes of suicide are very complicated. As such, I do not blame my parents. I see how other people look at them, though, and wonder what they (my parents) could have done differently as if it were their fault. And that is sad. Parents shouldn't have to bury their children, as they say, and especially not under this circumstance. My sister was diagnosed and medicated for mental illness so that probably played the biggest contributing factor. But I also believe that there were external factors that played their roles. In reality, only she knows. My wife is an LPC and manages and intake program for the county community of mental health and she is very aware that there may come a time when a client completes suicide even though she's done everything she can. She, better than most, should have all of the answers but she doesn't because mental health doesn't work that way. I hear daily directly from the source the damage that mental disease along with external factors can do.  I could go on whole soap box about mental health in this country but I'll save it. That said, we like things to be clean and have a simple, explainable answer but that isn't always possible. With mental health it seems that there are a lot more contributing factors than there are exact one cause to one effect.

To answer my own previous question: I think modeling good behavior - actions over words - will help provide a positive influence on my future children. I think questions are more important that answers so I will encourage them to explore, educate themselves, etc. My mom used to say it was her job to give us wings and it was our job to fly. I also think knowing my own flaws, whether inherited, learned or otherwise can only help. Know your enemy kind of thing.

All we can really do is mitigate risk. A lot of share the commonality of FIRE, what have you. One could do all of the right things: save a bunch, cut expenses, invest wisely, etc. Still, something could happen outside of our control that we couldn't recover from but most of us still want to do the right things to get ourselves to our goal.

I don't ultimately think parents are to blame, kite, but as someone who has already "gifted" my kids with a tendency towards pretty intense depression on my side of the family, I do want to be sure that I approach their education and their happiness in ways that don't exacerbate any mental struggles they might have. Or put them in a circumstance in which they feel trapped and feel like X or Y is essential to gaining my approval.

I absolutely loved one comment from a former Palo Alto student who struggled intensely with the demands and was himself clinically depressed. His advice was simple: tell your kids you love them every day. Show affection towards them. When they are older, ask them once in a while, "Are you happy?" Or "what makes you happy?" Let them know that this is on your radar as a parent. The implication is that, if they are not happy, life can be changed.

+1 - Very well said and articulates my thought better than I can.

elaine amj

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM »
A co-worker was complaining about how her 17 year old step-daughter has no ambition.  To which I replied (not to her face because I value my life, but other co-workers):"Ambition is overrated. How about we start with a baseline of being a decent human being, and work our way up from there?"

This resonated with me. I've always had a great relationship with my mother and very happy memories of my childhood. On the other hand, my brother (who is only a year older) has had a challenging relationship with my mother and says his childhood was filled with unrelenting pressure to succeed. I had no idea until we were both adults that he had such a different childhood than I did. 

He is a GREAT person (and has always been). Caring, loving, sweet - a good person through and through. He never took school particularly seriously as a kid but always had a good heart. BUT...My brother is not a financial success (and she is terrified that he will end up like my uncle who would get into one financial mess after the other) although he has a decent, stable, middle management job. (Frankly, my job is pretty similar - but since I am the "golden child", mine is a success whereas his job is not good enough. *sigh*). Looking back (and at the present), the biggest issue was that my mother was never simply proud of him. One day she actually told me he hadn't done anything for her to be proud of. I pretty much freaked out on her on the spot. I think I finally had a breakthrough early this year and she has been much better and more appreciative of everything he is and does.

The worst part is that my mother is a genuinely good person who loves both her kids and has tried very, very hard all these years to be a "good mother". She has been a fabulous mother to me - but somehow missed a lot of marks with my brother. As a mother now of an academically successful daughter and an academically average son, this is a challenge I face every single day in how to encourage and motivate my children while not placing excessive negative pressure.

Relating all this back to the original topic, I do agree that when you have professionally successful parents, you now have added pressure. Both my parents reached the top of their respective fields. There was certainly a lot of pressure on both my brother and I to achieve their levels of professional success. Our solution (unconscious) was to move away. I now live in Canada and my brother lives in London. Our careers are no longer compared against our parents. I'm sure if I had not moved away, I'd be feeling a lot of pressure to be more ambitious. Instead, I'm winding down to retirement.

Cgbg

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2015, 02:06:30 PM »
My mother asked me the other day which of my sons is better.

I thought for a moment she meant better at something (piano? Math? Running?) but no, she was really asking me which son is the best. Yeah, I don't raise my kids that way so I could only say that they are each their own person and I love them the same. Totally explains why my older brother seeks out my advice on nearly everything. Our warped upbringing means that he probably thinks I'm better than he is.

Anyway, I read the first part of this thread earlier this week. Dh and I did move to a better school district right before our oldest started kindergarten, and it meant taking on a bigger mortgage and a longer payoff. We did it because we felt that we should provide them the best opportunities possible (our reasoning back then anyway.) We were quite oblivios to what that meant exactly for the neighborhood we moved into.

Several comments in the thread struck me, and I wandered into our dining room where the oldest son was working on homework. I asked him if he feels like he has to be perfect in school. (I think he is. I'm his mom. But he's also a straight A student, cross country team captain, taking college classes at two local private universities while still a senior in high achool, blah blah blah.) He sat there for a minute and then said that it never crossed his mind that he needed to be perfect. I ended the conversation by letting him know that straight As in college isn't a requirement of his parents.

So maybe I haven't screwed them up too terribly. I am quietly pulling out all of my hair as my son awaits college acceptances, but I prefer to think that is what most parents experience.

WGH

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2015, 02:41:56 PM »
Well as a parent of two toddlers on the brink of starting school this thread has just depressed the hell out of me...

You concern yourself so much with the obvious bad stuff like drugs, alcohol, violence, divorce, parental apathy and lo and behold the other side of the coin can be nearly as damaging.

I guess like most things in life you've got to find a happy medium of support without being overbearing and push without shoving.

What's difficult is there is no foolproof formula to ensure that your child will end up happy. You can only do the best you can do.

Napoleon

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2015, 04:34:30 PM »
Well as a parent of two toddlers on the brink of starting school this thread has just depressed the hell out of me...

You concern yourself so much with the obvious bad stuff like drugs, alcohol, violence, divorce, parental apathy and lo and behold the other side of the coin can be nearly as damaging.

I guess like most things in life you've got to find a happy medium of support without being overbearing and push without shoving.

What's difficult is there is no foolproof formula to ensure that your child will end up happy. You can only do the best you can do.

Parenting advice from a survivor of well-meaning but mentally destructive parenting:

Really, truly, genuinely and demonstratively love all of your children equally and unconditionally.

Don't harbour secret vicarious aspirations for them. Lay out all the options and let them make the choice.

Consciously admire a variety of lifestyles. Children pick up on a "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality. Genuinely embrace alternative ways of living.

Be fair and consistent. Never punish arbitrarily but if they have done something wrong there should be consequences.

Use the actual words "I love you" and "I am proud of you".

Don't laugh at your children's hopes and fears and interests. Their perspective on life is totally different. Maybe they do really want to bring that stick home.

Get a hobby. Something you enjoy that will stop you focusing excessively on your children. Work does not count.

Accept that all you have done is improved the odds, and that what will be will be. Let go.

---

The worst thing about my childhood is that there was nothing "wrong" with it. I was never hit or starved or locked up. I was never even treated unkindly. I was just so lonely because I felt that I had no one to trust, no one to confide in, no one to love me. I struggled hugely in therapy talking about my family and I always said that I loved my parents because I did not know what else to say. Looking back, I realise that I didn't have the words to explain all the absences in my childhood, of everyday affection. No one would ever have been able to point to anything specific but I FELT it in the way that children do.

Moustachienne

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2015, 04:43:53 PM »
I hope that this thread can also be encouraging to parents! 

Your kids' happiness doesn't depend on your worldly goods and success but will be much more influenced by the intangibles of your family life; love, acceptance, encouragement, fun, inspiration, discipline, good role models, etc.  These aren't always easy to supply but they depend on internal rather than external motivations and circumstances.

And I'm saying 'influenced" because parents are not in the end solely responsible for what their kids will make of their life. So many variables at play and all you can do is your best.

gooki

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2015, 11:26:05 PM »
Even under the best of circumstances, an 18 year old is an adult only in the legal sense, but not in any other way that matters. There's not some magic switch that turns on at the 18th birthday that suddenly imbues a person with good reasoning, judgment, or the ability to divine and understand the second- and third-order effects of one's decision making (aka, the prediction and understanding of consequences). Hell, the human brain isn't even fully developed until the early to mid 20s. It takes a lot of life experience - both good and bad - to get to a point where one is reasonably good at figuring out life. (Some people never make it to that point.)

Maybe that's what we (society) should be focusing on. Instead of formal education in a handful of subjects, broader education and life experiences (successes and failure) will lead to a greater understanding of life, and greater maturity at 18.

Bertram

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2015, 01:40:33 AM »
Even under the best of circumstances, an 18 year old is an adult only in the legal sense, but not in any other way that matters. There's not some magic switch that turns on at the 18th birthday that suddenly imbues a person with good reasoning, judgment, or the ability to divine and understand the second- and third-order effects of one's decision making (aka, the prediction and understanding of consequences). Hell, the human brain isn't even fully developed until the early to mid 20s. It takes a lot of life experience - both good and bad - to get to a point where one is reasonably good at figuring out life. (Some people never make it to that point.)

Maybe that's what we (society) should be focusing on. Instead of formal education in a handful of subjects, broader education and life experiences (successes and failure) will lead to a greater understanding of life, and greater maturity at 18.

Not "instead" but "in addition to". And am actually getting the impression that parents tend to do that, when they have the resources and the necessary life experience themselves. You can't put that onus on schools, simply because it is much too specific and different for each person.

I also don't see the problem with 18 being the marker where someone counts as an adult, some kids are more adult at 14 than others are at 28. Unless you want to give out tests and licenses for "life" you'll always end up with an arbitrary marker where some are more ready than others. Hey one of the most freeing realizations as a young adult was that nobody really knows what they are doing, most people just act in the way as if they did and "wing it" - no matter whether they are mediocre or extremely successful at life/career/hobby/this or that niche. Yes, you do get more out of life when you have it all figured out for yourself, but that's way, way waaaay past becoming adult.

Actually I like the analogy to a license - even in countries where drivers license cost a lot of money, have very strict curriculum and lot of theory and practice - once you get the license it's only your permission to take part in traffic and keep learning on your own. It takes many, many years of experience to become very sufficient. A drivers license is not a certificate that you are a professional driver that knows how to handle every situation, will always make the right calls and act for the greater good of humanity. Same with life. 18 gives you permission to participate fully in adult life, make experiences on your own and keep learning - it doesn't mean you are a master human at the highest zen levels that will not make mistakes and have everything all figured out.

libertarian4321

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2015, 07:49:10 AM »
My parents never pressured me and were very supportive of me and my well thought out decisions my whole life. My father has a masters degree and mother a bachelors. I did some college and a tech school. I went back and got my Associates Degree once I was already making over 100k at around 23. This year at 27 I'll be closer to 200k.


There are a number of these "yeah, well I went to the local community college, majored in basket weaving, and now make $200k at age 27" type of posts.

That's fine.  You are in the top 0.00001% of young community college grads.  Congrats.

But like the disclaimer at the bottom of a late night "get rich quick" infomercial, I would suggest that this result is not typical.

If you go to the Waxahatchie County Community College, you probably ain't going to make $200k at age 27.

But making massive money after thumbing ones nose at conventional wisdom really isn't the point, is it? 

The idea is that you do NOT need to make $200k at 27 (or ever) or even hundreds of thousands to live a good life.


Moustachienne

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2015, 10:49:53 AM »


The idea is that you do NOT need to make $200k at 27 (or ever) or even hundreds of thousands to live a good life.

Thanks libertarian4321.  Exactly!  This is the tl;dr of my original post and the whole thread. 

Miss Prim

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2015, 04:28:59 PM »
I think kids have different reasons for going to college.  Some just want a degree and the experience of going to college and others are there to get a degree that will get them a specific job that they know will be available to them after graduation. 

My parents were clueless about college degrees as neither one had one.  I could have gone into anything I wanted and they wouldn't have said a word.  In fact, at one point, when I almost quit as I was in Elementary education and this was in the early 70's when teachers were not finding jobs upon graduation, my mom who wanted me to finish college really bad told me to take anything I wanted.  Well, even at that age (19) I knew that some degrees did not lead to decent jobs, so I opted to switch to Medical Technology (lab) because I knew the field was open.  Even though I did not have to pay for my degree, I still did not want to waste my time and my parents money on just anything. 

When my kids were going to college, we steered them toward fields where they could get a job after graduation.  I still feel that a degree is a means to an end and nothing else.  One can be well rounded by reading a lot, traveling, visiting museums, etc. 

That is just my opinion, but I'll throw it in the mix!

                                                                                        Miss Prim   

gooki

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2015, 06:27:05 PM »
Actually I like the analogy to a license - even in countries where drivers license cost a lot of money, have very strict curriculum and lot of theory and practice - once you get the license it's only your permission to take part in traffic and keep learning on your own. It takes many, many years of experience to become very sufficient. A drivers license is not a certificate that you are a professional driver that knows how to handle every situation, will always make the right calls and act for the greater good of humanity. Same with life. 18 gives you permission to participate fully in adult life, make experiences on your own and keep learning - it doesn't mean you are a master human at the highest zen levels that will not make mistakes and have everything all figured out.

Well said.

Yet we teach a lot of academically useful information, but the foundation to general life is often missed in schooling. Sure parents should be involved more, but if your child spend 8 hours a day travelling and attending school and 2 hours  a day doing home work and 10 hours sleeping, that leaves 4 hours per day to fit in everything else. What I'm getting at is it seems un-balanced.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2015, 06:44:44 PM »

 spend 8 hours a day travelling and attending school and 2 hours  a day doing home work and 10 hours sleeping, that leaves 4 hours per day to fit in everything else.
Sounds like the perfect foundation for general life

Jtrey17

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2015, 09:44:56 PM »

It's easy to not blame your parents when you had good parents. And it's hard to see that everyone is not so lucky. I would bet your parents are happily married, or at least content with their choices, and have high self-esteem. Most likely THEY had good parents. It's a recipe for producing well-adjusted, accomplished offspring. You are fortunate.

Many parents are not supportive and not accomplished, as yours clearly are. Many are critical, judgmental, emotionally abusive, prickly, naive, personality disordered, tired, uninformed, inexperienced, or overstretched with too many kids and too little money. Many parents had bad parents themselves and grew up to have such low self-esteem it affects all of their children. This is a pathology that can get passed down in families to varying degrees. It can mean that children are launched into adulthood with a lot of baggage in the form of shame, low self-esteem, self-doubts, lack of ambition, lack of discipline, lack of organization, tendencies toward addiction, and a host of other problems that can hinder their progress in early adult life, or even cripple it. Sometimes it means young adults flail about for a while before figuring things out. In some more insidious cases, they think they know what they'd like to do with their life but their hesitant proclamations are met with pressure, criticism, derision, skepticism, or sarcasm from their parents, and they retreat from their plans as a method of self-preservation. This is particularly a problem with people who have a parent with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a lifelong pattern that becomes hardwired and is really hard to overcome. Children - even adult children - must please their parents or face the consequences, usually in the form of emotional abuse. If you haven't experienced this type of pathology in a family, you cannot understand it.

Cheers to the lucky ones who are not crippled by their parents' inadequacies and shortcomings.

+1

Even under the best of circumstances, an 18 year old is an adult only in the legal sense, but not in any other way that matters. There's not some magic switch that turns on at the 18th birthday that suddenly imbues a person with good reasoning, judgment, or the ability to divine and understand the second- and third-order effects of one's decision making (aka, the prediction and understanding of consequences). Hell, the human brain isn't even fully developed until the early to mid 20s. It takes a lot of life experience - both good and bad - to get to a point where one is reasonably good at figuring out life. (Some people never make it to that point.)

I can attest first-hand that, when you add in the situation that JoeO mentions above, well, that throws a whole new kink in the chain.
+2. My kids father is a total narcassist (why couldn't I see that sooner?). I'm terrified at what it"s doing to the kids...

Erica

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2015, 11:01:53 PM »
Our son has 3 AA degrees and will graduate next month with a 4 year degree in exercise science

We've not had to pay a cent for him. He's always worked even through high school. Having his own medical benefits plans too.

He lives at home but got full scholarships. So we've been lucky but he was also encouraged to go that direction

We did buy his first car so he could get to work. We do not live in the city so a car is required.

Otherwise regarding finances, he's been solely on his own handling his finances his whole life

He will move out when he gets married
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:03:24 PM by Outdoorsygal »

Erica

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2015, 11:06:40 PM »

It's easy to not blame your parents when you had good parents. And it's hard to see that everyone is not so lucky. I would bet your parents are happily married, or at least content with their choices, and have high self-esteem. Most likely THEY had good parents. It's a recipe for producing well-adjusted, accomplished offspring. You are fortunate.

Many parents are not supportive and not accomplished, as yours clearly are. Many are critical, judgmental, emotionally abusive, prickly, naive, personality disordered, tired, uninformed, inexperienced, or overstretched with too many kids and too little money. Many parents had bad parents themselves and grew up to have such low self-esteem it affects all of their children. This is a pathology that can get passed down in families to varying degrees. It can mean that children are launched into adulthood with a lot of baggage in the form of shame, low self-esteem, self-doubts, lack of ambition, lack of discipline, lack of organization, tendencies toward addiction, and a host of other problems that can hinder their progress in early adult life, or even cripple it. Sometimes it means young adults flail about for a while before figuring things out. In some more insidious cases, they think they know what they'd like to do with their life but their hesitant proclamations are met with pressure, criticism, derision, skepticism, or sarcasm from their parents, and they retreat from their plans as a method of self-preservation. This is particularly a problem with people who have a parent with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a lifelong pattern that becomes hardwired and is really hard to overcome. Children - even adult children - must please their parents or face the consequences, usually in the form of emotional abuse. If you haven't experienced this type of pathology in a family, you cannot understand it.

Cheers to the lucky ones who are not crippled by their parents' inadequacies and shortcomings.

+1

Even under the best of circumstances, an 18 year old is an adult only in the legal sense, but not in any other way that matters. There's not some magic switch that turns on at the 18th birthday that suddenly imbues a person with good reasoning, judgment, or the ability to divine and understand the second- and third-order effects of one's decision making (aka, the prediction and understanding of consequences). Hell, the human brain isn't even fully developed until the early to mid 20s. It takes a lot of life experience - both good and bad - to get to a point where one is reasonably good at figuring out life. (Some people never make it to that point.)

I can attest first-hand that, when you add in the situation that JoeO mentions above, well, that throws a whole new kink in the chain.
+2. My kids father is a total narcassist (why couldn't I see that sooner?). I'm terrified at what it"s doing to the kids...
Our best friends, well the wife was like that. They eventually divorced. The daughter followed in moms footsteps while the son followed in his fathers footsteps. Mom had them more often than Dad but after they got to be teenagers and could resist mom, they moved in with their Dad Full time and remained there. A situation he welcomed but she was upset because that meant she would no longer get child support. So to keep her satisfied, he paid her about 25% of the child support and fully supported his kids saying it was best mom and dad not argue about money regarding the children. I agreed and felt it was in the best interest of the kids. Luckily he could afford to do that

coppertop

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2015, 07:29:35 AM »
I was worried about my kids too - after their father walked out and quit his job, leaving me solely responsible for their care.  However, eventually they all stepped up to the plate and grew into responsible adults.  There were a few hiccups, but all three of them worked while they were in school and all have advanced degrees today.  My older son worked his butt off, detailing luxury cars at a dealership full time while also attending school full time.  Daughter worked as a dental assistant, which paid very nicely, and younger son worked in a law firm part time. 

I think, though, that kids appreciate an education more if they actually had a hand in paying for it.  I've seen way too many kids who took their parent-paid educations for granted, screwed around and got poor grades, and even dropping out mid-semester for no other reason than that they were tired of school, or did not like their roommates, and other such nonsense.  Who cares if they waste Mom and Dad's money?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2015, 01:07:46 PM »
Hey it's really tough on those of us whose parents didn't divorce, or didn't helicopter parent us and who went to school and did well - we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2015, 01:38:22 PM »
Hey it's really tough on those of us whose parents didn't divorce, or didn't helicopter parent us and who went to school and did well - we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
Blame for what?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2015, 02:54:58 PM »
Hey it's really tough on those of us whose parents didn't divorce, or didn't helicopter parent us and who went to school and did well - we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
Blame for what?
Everything !


Landlord2015

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2015, 02:24:49 PM »
Hey it's really tough on those of us whose parents didn't divorce, or didn't helicopter parent us and who went to school and did well - we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
Blame for what?
Being not so smart since you asked that:). Don't take seriously any offense of my teasing. I am sure you meant your life has gone fine and you have not failed etc you have success etc.

Well if COMPARING to my father who died to early and I don't want to talk about his death.
Economically I do well I am landlord so on economical scale not worse then my father.
Career: My father was as highlight of his career not only doctor he was the BOSS doctor for a large community hospital.
My sister is more like a nurse and my brother works fulltime high paid programmer and I have part time work+landlord income.

A doctor in Finland does:
A. Overtime and I mean pleanty of it and get paid for it.
B. Shiftwork day, evening and night and weekend.

I can say that none of my fathers children has had such a brilliant career and salary as my father did have at the highlight of his career.

In addition while me and my brother did military service which is mandatory in Finland my father was a fairly high ranked officer and I and my brother are not any high ranked military officers.

My mother lives and she might live decades but regardless I have used what I can and I invest smartly.

The most common problem is that some children do get something inherited and they don't understand how to use it smartly. I can assure you that is not my problem.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 02:43:40 PM by Landlord2015 »

arebelspy

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2015, 02:53:49 PM »
And why would anyone be blamed for you not being as "successful" as your father?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Landlord2015

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2015, 03:01:53 PM »
And why would anyone be blamed for you not being as "successful" as your father?
The only thing I regret that I did not follow my fathers footsteps I should have become a doctor... Choosing IT was a mistake that I regret.

If I could go back in time I would have done my best to become a doctor. Blood horrible to watch? No problem I like horror and action hardcore movies and I can see blood and wounds.

You know back long time in history people did take same career as their father if they were male. I sincerely regret that I did not do that. Doctors studies are extremely demanding and can take like 7 years not anymore starting any such tries not so say it is very hard to get into a doctor school. In Finland if you don't do well in the doctor school they kick you out of it but you don't get huge study debts.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 03:05:26 PM by Landlord2015 »

arebelspy

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2015, 03:04:20 PM »
Okay... But did someone force you not to be a doctor, or to be in IT?  Why would you blame someone else?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Landlord2015

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2015, 03:08:23 PM »
Okay... But did someone force you not to be a doctor, or to be in IT?  Why would you blame someone else?
No one did force me to become doctor or IT. I was always interested in computers(PC) games and from there did it start an interest towards IT.

Thats it I don't blame anyone except myself for my career choice. There was a time also when IT was flourishing in Finland, but that time is clearly gone.

Doctors are highly wanted in Finland. 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 03:13:05 PM by Landlord2015 »

Erica

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2015, 07:06:34 PM »
Just curious but have you researched being a doctor? I mean truly asked multiple doctors in a meek fashion so they'll tell you the truth?

The USA changed physical therapist to requiring a Doctorate Degree now. So they can prescribe meds if needed. My son will have a degree in exercise science within a few weeks but still cannot decide

whether to go to med school. He is in with Apple, already has benefits and makes $14 per hr. I mean it's a shoe in. But a few doctors

warned him about how things are now with the affordable care act. His personality isn't to screw over patients, he seems to hold himself

and his decisions with high integrity. I am not sure if being a doctor is for him and he could live with some of those forced decisions.

Without knowing your age, and where you'd be a doctor AT...(the options) and the Finland healthcare system I won't pretend to have a clue

what to tell you. But just research it because you  may find that you made the right decision. I work with someone whose hubby works for Apple.

Same path my son is on. Hes been with them 8 years and makes $22 per hr. With how tough the economy is, and the fact he

works less than 30 hrs a week with full benefits, stock options, 401k, it seems a good deal imho. Too good to risk attending Med School though we have family members who are physicians, hence part of the influence. He could still change his mind and go to med school but he'd be loosing his job in the process.  My suspicion is you are very lucky (if you work from home). Being a landlord is conducive to that. Remember when you are at home, you save on gasoline and time driving to work. You can chop vegetables while on the phone making dinner (after you get good and go off of your brain and not the script). You could be making homemade laundry soap. Not alot of free time but some here and there. The cost to heat the house might be more but overall, its a pretty great lifestyle.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 11:55:12 PM by Outdoorsygal »

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2015, 12:12:24 AM »
A co-worker was complaining about how her 17 year old step-daughter has no ambition.  To which I replied (not to her face because I value my life, but other co-workers):"Ambition is overrated. How about we start with a baseline of being a decent human being, and work our way up from there?"
OMG, this is a fucking lightbulb moment for me. Thank you for this, tthree. My DSS has no ambition, no organization skills and is exceedingly shy. His mom died a couple of years ago and his dad got married again (to me) fairly quickly. The poor kid seems totally lost.  He's 23, still in junior college, but only part-time. He lives with us and his grandmother, who has Alzheimer's. He seems to have no friends, has never dated or even held a job. I worry about him a TON. Since he is, in fact, a decent human being, I think I'll just use this new benchmark as a fresh starting point with him. Thanks for this insight.

Landlord2015

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2015, 02:53:43 AM »
Just curious but have you researched being a doctor? I mean truly asked multiple doctors in a meek fashion so they'll tell you the truth?

The USA changed physical therapist to requiring a Doctorate Degree now. So they can prescribe meds if needed. My son will have a degree in exercise science within a few weeks but still cannot decide

whether to go to med school. He is in with Apple, already has benefits and makes $14 per hr. I mean it's a shoe in. But a few doctors

warned him about how things are now with the affordable care act. His personality isn't to screw over patients, he seems to hold himself

and his decisions with high integrity. I am not sure if being a doctor is for him and he could live with some of those forced decisions.

Without knowing your age, and where you'd be a doctor AT...(the options) and the Finland healthcare system I won't pretend to have a clue

what to tell you. But just research it because you  may find that you made the right decision. I work with someone whose hubby works for Apple.

Same path my son is on. Hes been with them 8 years and makes $22 per hr. With how tough the economy is, and the fact he

works less than 30 hrs a week with full benefits, stock options, 401k, it seems a good deal imho. Too good to risk attending Med School though we have family members who are physicians, hence part of the influence. He could still change his mind and go to med school but he'd be loosing his job in the process.  My suspicion is you are very lucky (if you work from home). Being a landlord is conducive to that. Remember when you are at home, you save on gasoline and time driving to work. You can chop vegetables while on the phone making dinner (after you get good and go off of your brain and not the script). You could be making homemade laundry soap. Not alot of free time but some here and there. The cost to heat the house might be more but overall, its a pretty great lifestyle.
Have I researched being a doctor? Well enough regarding my country Finland and same goes for many westernized European countries though not sure how it works in all of Europe.

My father was a doctor and he has not been dead for many years. Another thing
Finland has public statistic what fields are most wanted and doctors belong to the most wanted ones and IT workers to very bottom!

I tell the trutha about Finland IT salaries. Finland IT salaries are between 1800 euro-4000 euro/month.

12 month* 1800 minimum= 21600 but since by law they pay so much for holiday money benefits it reallly should be multiplied 12,5 though we are entitled to 5 weeks paid holiday.
so 12,5*1800= 22500 euro/year very low for IT salary and not in the capitol area such salaries.

12,5*4000=50 000k euro/year. I know really many IT workers in my country and none of them earn more then that.

In Finland IT workers do not earn any freaking 100k-150k/year that I see people posting about this!

Doctor salaries? Honestly don't know normal maximum salaries for doctors in Finland but minimum should EASILY be 5000 euro/month. In that sum is included
extra payments for shiftwork and some normal overtime that doctors need to do in Finland. It is not like oh that patient came in from traffic accident sorry let the patient die since I can not do overtime.

Very rough estimate doctors in Finland earn between 5000-10 000 euro/month.
12,5*5000=62500 euro/year 12,5*10k=125 000 euro/year.

There are much more demand for IT in other countries in Europe in Finland and likely more demand for more IT in USA.

Homeworking? It is not that easy in Finland sounds like you suggest become entreprenur from home. Once you become entreprenur you loose many good social benefits in Finland and these are really good benefits. I am starting an entreprenur evening course that is held 2 evenings/week during next week. That does not mean I will ever become an entrepreneur since there are great risk etc. but I will keep it as one possible option.

I am not saying I am done with IT and I am busy with rental issue but when I get those fixed during next year spring 2016 then finally I am in a position that I could really move abroad and I did work 2 years in Sweden.

IT is going down in Finland. IT is not going down in whole Europe or USA. In fact I don't have any facts about USA so no I can't say how it works in USA.

The doctors studies in Finland? No study debt, but it is one of the hardest schools very hard to get in and if you don't do well they kick you out and no amount of study dollars or euros will save you from that:).

My age? None of your bussiness though 30+ and I am not freaking studying to doctor anymore perhaps if I would be 25. Honestly it is very hard to become doctor in Finland even if I try I am not sure I would succeed with that and only waste years of my time in that effort.

Doctors studies in Finland are not some IT engineer 4 year studies. Usually doctor studies in Finland can take 7 years.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 03:17:20 AM by Landlord2015 »

Landlord2015

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2015, 03:04:29 AM »
Outdoorsygal you are absolutely correct in frugal lifestyle though. I live in a small town(though not far from a fairly big city) while the 3 apartments that I rent to other people are in capitol area.

It is much more frugal to live where I live compared to capitol area and real estate is crystal clear cheaper here.

As for career path Outdoorsygal regarding your sons(I got the impression you have 2 sons with different salaries and work) I am not sure what is the best option since studies cost so much in USA. Talk with other USA people and I am sure other forum members from USA might be better adisors regarding for your sons career path.

I am confused when you talk hour salaries... but clearly your other son earns more then the younger one I guess.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 03:24:49 AM by Landlord2015 »

Erica

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Re: Poor little rich kids - really (longish rant)
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2015, 05:01:56 PM »
Outdoorsygal you are absolutely correct in frugal lifestyle though. I live in a small town(though not far from a fairly big city) while the 3 apartments that I rent to other people are in capitol area.

It is much more frugal to live where I live compared to capitol area and real estate is crystal clear cheaper here.

As for career path Outdoorsygal regarding your sons(I got the impression you have 2 sons with different salaries and work) I am not sure what is the best option since studies cost so much in USA. Talk with other USA people and I am sure other forum members from USA might be better adisors regarding for your sons career path.

I am confused when you talk hour salaries... but clearly your other son earns more then the younger one I guess.
Landlord you really sound like you've done your homework. And wow is Finland different from the US! Yes in the US, especially Northern California is where whats known as Silicon Valley. So I made a false assumption everywhere IT is hot and pays well. Best of luck to you, you seem to have a great head on your shoulders.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!