Poll: People Fear Retirement Over Death

[Tigerpine]

Interesting poll results.

About 61% of working Americans are more afraid of retiring than of dying, and 64% fear retiring more than getting divorced, according to a national survey for LiveCareer in June.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/09/02/american-workers-fear-retirement-more-than-death/75012002007/

[mistymoney]

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

There seems to be an implication that people should be more afraid of death, but fearing death is not something I personally subscribe too. It has to happen, I hope it is peacefully, but there isn't any way to avoid it so I like to think I am mostly prepared for it, whether it might come next week or on 105th birthday.

Now with retirement, things could go wrong! I mismanage or am unlucky in needing extensive care for decades and run out of money, or I am not positioned for the new great depression, ect. So I could fail retirment. Death, I don't think I have a chance of failing that. Not in long run at any rate.

[Tigerpine]

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

[Ron Scott]

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

It is. And Mistymoney typically has good input but came out with both barrels firing for some reason on this one. It’s OK.

FWIW, these kinds of poll response analyses are not supposed to be interpreted the way this one was. It’s silly and the conclusions are usually not born out or even verified. It’s fun press.

The same is true of the bullshit assessment: Americans care more about the economy than abortion and trust the GOP more than the Dems on the economy, therefore Trump wins.

Easy mon.

[wageslave23]

I'm ambivalent about these reports and/or articles.  What I'd really like to see is hard numbers on what the typical retirees income and assets are. It's frustrating that the federal government doesn't have its shit together. They have access to everyone's 1099s and w2s. They should have access to everyone's asset information as well. This should all be released in an anonymous report or database.  That way we wouldn't have to try and extrapolate from various sources that only have a fraction of the data in order to create the complete picture of the financial wellbeing of retirees.  Amount in 401ks is irrelevant without pension income information.  Income information is irrelevant without invest assets that can be drawn down tax free.  I don't think anyone really has a clue how retirees are doing as a whole.

[bill1827]

That article has a link to another interesting article. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/06/07/retire-without-a-million-dollars/73969717007/

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need $1 million in the bank.

Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to $100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.

“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column by Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published in April in The Wall Street Journal.

which rather goes against the MMM 4% rule.

Another interesting snippet

The average couple who retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security benefits, by Biggs’s calculations.

That is interesting because I live in a country which, allegedly, has a good social security system. A couple retiring with a full NI record here would be entitled to benefits of £23,000 a year, reduced if the NI record is incomplete. Those figures make it look as if the US is the socialist paradise.

[mistymoney]

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

I guess I wanted more info on why you found it interesting. I'm wondering if you fear death, or think others should. didn't intend to sound snarky!

[Cranky]

That article has a link to another interesting article. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/06/07/retire-without-a-million-dollars/73969717007/

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need $1 million in the bank.

Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to $100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.

“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column by Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published in April in The Wall Street Journal.

which rather goes against the MMM 4% rule.

Another interesting snippet

The average couple who retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security benefits, by Biggs’s calculations.

That is interesting because I live in a country which, allegedly, has a good social security system. A couple retiring with a full NI record here would be entitled to benefits of £23,000 a year, reduced if the NI record is incomplete. Those figures make it look as if the US is the socialist paradise.

I watch a YouTuber in Scotland who is retired on a £9k annual pension. Whoa.

[spartana]

That article has a link to another interesting article. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/06/07/retire-without-a-million-dollars/73969717007/

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need $1 million in the bank.

Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to $100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.

“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column by Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published in April in The Wall Street Journal.

which rather goes against the MMM 4% rule.

Another interesting snippet

The average couple who retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security benefits, by Biggs’s calculations.

That is interesting because I live in a country which, allegedly, has a good social security system. A couple retiring with a full NI record here would be entitled to benefits of £23,000 a year, reduced if the NI record is incomplete. Those figures make it look as if the US is the socialist paradise.

I watch a YouTuber in Scotland who is retired on a £9k annual pension. Whoa.

Didn't Jacob at ERE retire on $6k annually? Although that was his half of a combined income with his spouse. So $12k/per childless couple.

I and several other forum members have lived single on under $10k/year ($6k for basics and $4k for fun money) but that was due to having low cost housing, paid off homes (me), shared housing etc and other things like zero debt, no kids and low cost or free medical insurance and hobbies. So unusual but doable for many.  Plus having a bunch of money invested as back up that you can tap makes a huge difference since you really aren't "poor".

Also a lot of these kinds of articles assume you are retiring at normal retirement age and can access money via SS after decades of working. The FIRE people will likely need more then the normal retiree does.

[mistymoney]

That article has a link to another interesting article. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/06/07/retire-without-a-million-dollars/73969717007/

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need $1 million in the bank.

Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to $100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.

“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column by Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published in April in The Wall Street Journal.

which rather goes against the MMM 4% rule.

Another interesting snippet

The average couple who retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security benefits, by Biggs’s calculations.

That is interesting because I live in a country which, allegedly, has a good social security system. A couple retiring with a full NI record here would be entitled to benefits of £23,000 a year, reduced if the NI record is incomplete. Those figures make it look as if the US is the socialist paradise.

lol, well - but then they deduct your medicare premium from the check monthly. I think it's like 175 a month, for each person of a couple.

well great, now you have health insurance for less than 200 month, not bad! Oh hey - then there is the dedcutible, but that is only 240 a year, each so just another few hundred here and there. Ok not bad. Now you have big medical bills, medicare pays 80%. you need to get a separate insurance policy to pay the other 20% or do it out of pocket.

[Morning Glory]

That article has a link to another interesting article. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/06/07/retire-without-a-million-dollars/73969717007/

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need $1 million in the bank.

Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to $100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.

“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column by Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published in April in The Wall Street Journal.

which rather goes against the MMM 4% rule.

Another interesting snippet

The average couple who retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security benefits, by Biggs’s calculations.

That is interesting because I live in a country which, allegedly, has a good social security system. A couple retiring with a full NI record here would be entitled to benefits of £23,000 a year, reduced if the NI record is incomplete. Those figures make it look as if the US is the socialist paradise.

I watch a YouTuber in Scotland who is retired on a £9k annual pension. Whoa.

Didn't Jacob at ERE retire on $6k annually? Although that was his half of a combined income with his spouse. So $12k/per childless couple.

I and several other forum members have lived single on under $10k/year ($6k for basics and $4k for fun money) but that was due to having low cost housing, paid off homes (me), shared housing etc and other things like zero debt, no kids and low cost or free medical insurance and hobbies. So unusual but doable for many.  Plus having a bunch of money invested as back up that you can tap makes a huge difference since you really aren't "poor".

Also a lot of these kinds of articles assume you are retiring at normal retirement age and can access money via SS after decades of working. The FIRE people will likely need more then the normal retiree does.

I looked at my spending last year and outside of mortgage PI and an hvac replacement we spent less than 30k. Family of 4. Even if we had a large expense like that every year we'd be well under 40k once the mortgage is paid off.

[Cranky]

That article has a link to another interesting article. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/06/07/retire-without-a-million-dollars/73969717007/

If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need $1 million in the bank.

Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to $100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.

“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column by Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published in April in The Wall Street Journal.

which rather goes against the MMM 4% rule.

Another interesting snippet

The average couple who retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security benefits, by Biggs’s calculations.

That is interesting because I live in a country which, allegedly, has a good social security system. A couple retiring with a full NI record here would be entitled to benefits of £23,000 a year, reduced if the NI record is incomplete. Those figures make it look as if the US is the socialist paradise.

I watch a YouTuber in Scotland who is retired on a £9k annual pension. Whoa.

Didn't Jacob at ERE retire on $6k annually? Although that was his half of a combined income with his spouse. So $12k/per childless couple.

I and several other forum members have lived single on under $10k/year ($6k for basics and $4k for fun money) but that was due to having low cost housing, paid off homes (me), shared housing etc and other things like zero debt, no kids and low cost or free medical insurance and hobbies. So unusual but doable for many.  Plus having a bunch of money invested as back up that you can tap makes a huge difference since you really aren't "poor".

Also a lot of these kinds of articles assume you are retiring at normal retirement age and can access money via SS after decades of working. The FIRE people will likely need more then the normal retiree does.

What surprised me is that she’s a retired teacher and did not retire early. That is just not a lot of money after a full professional working life.

[Tigerpine]

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

I guess I wanted more info on why you found it interesting. I'm wondering if you fear death, or think others should. didn't intend to sound snarky!

It's interesting to me, although not surprising.  At least in my small circle, I see a lot of media that talks about the impending retirement crisis or talks about how much one needs to have to fund a retirement.  Inevitably these articles tout large numbers that I think adds to a general sense of unease and helplessness towards retirement in general. 

This article is interesting to me because it gives a look into that general feeling of unease, although I don't find the article particularly helpful beyond that.

I would think that for the average person, death is the standard for fear.  I've only known one person who had actually made peace with death before it came, and I've known quite a few people who have passed away through the years.

So to say one fears anything more than death, in general, either reflects a real palpable fear or demonstrates that people engage in hyperbole to make a point.  Either way, the point is made.

As for myself, do I fear death?  Fear is perhaps the wrong word to describe my thoughts toward it, but I'm in no hurry for it to come about.  I am very happy with my life today, and I wish to enjoy it while I can.

[charis]

I don't think the OP is implying that people should fear death by sharing this article.  Perhaps the article itself does by setting up a survey in that way. 

But I also don't think the article is at all suggesting that people don't fear death.

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

I guess I wanted more info on why you found it interesting. I'm wondering if you fear death, or think others should. didn't intend to sound snarky!

If I had to guess, people fear retirement more than death because it's a more imminent (in their minds) circumstance that they haven't prepared for either financially or psychologically and it's generally a precursor to death for many. 

[wageslave23]

I don't think the OP is implying that people should fear death by sharing this article.  Perhaps the article itself does by setting up a survey in that way. 

But I also don't think the article is at all suggesting that people don't fear death.

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

I guess I wanted more info on why you found it interesting. I'm wondering if you fear death, or think others should. didn't intend to sound snarky!

If I had to guess, people fear retirement more than death because it's a more imminent (in their minds) circumstance that they haven't prepared for either financially or psychologically and it's generally a precursor to death for many.

Overall it's just a dumb survey question.  If death was imminent, ie you put a gun to someone's head and ask them if they are more worried about death or retirement, it will change their answer. Same thing if you ask an 80 yr old. When the majority of the people surveyed are not near death, then retirement is going to be a bigger concern.

[simonsez]

I wonder what you're taking away from this, that you posted about it?

It's an interesting article.  I thought I'd share.  Isn't that enough?

I guess I wanted more info on why you found it interesting. I'm wondering if you fear death, or think others should. didn't intend to sound snarky!

It's interesting to me, although not surprising.  At least in my small circle, I see a lot of media that talks about the impending retirement crisis or talks about how much one needs to have to fund a retirement.  Inevitably these articles tout large numbers that I think adds to a general sense of unease and helplessness towards retirement in general. 

This article is interesting to me because it gives a look into that general feeling of unease, although I don't find the article particularly helpful beyond that.

I would think that for the average person, death is the standard for fear.  I've only known one person who had actually made peace with death before it came, and I've known quite a few people who have passed away through the years.

So to say one fears anything more than death, in general, either reflects a real palpable fear or demonstrates that people engage in hyperbole to make a point.  Either way, the point is made.

As for myself, do I fear death?  Fear is perhaps the wrong word to describe my thoughts toward it, but I'm in no hurry for it to come about.  I am very happy with my life today, and I wish to enjoy it while I can.

That is great food for thought.  What really is someone's biggest fear?  Personally, just because death isn't my #1 fear does not necessarily mean I've made peace with it but maybe I have based on someone else's terms?  Hard to say and I also draw a distinction between dying and death.  I view dying as one relatively small aspect under the "death umbrella".  Dying will probably suck and something to endure once and then it's over, but that's just a part of the journey and if all the idiots in the world can do it, so can I.  Overall, death is much more profound than just the struggles related to last few moments of a human life IMO.  Nearly every aspect of how a human encounters and deals with death will be different from person to person.  I've thought about death and death-related consequences for many hundreds of hours over the years and while I wouldn't call how I think of it as "peaceful", it's better for me to process and think about it and use the baseline tension that comes with thinking about death to motivate to get on with living and pursuing goals rather than bury my head in the sand. 

At times thoughts related to death can be quite stressful and/or scary but when viewed in totality, it's a net positive while being somewhat mentally stimulating and certainly nowhere as bad as the thought of being alone or having to date again or fertility-related fears or not being able to provide financially/emotionally/physically to my household as the result of some action/accident or accidentally seriously injuring or killing someone else (dropping a small child when going down stairs, hitting someone with car, etc.).  Everyone (out of those that devote mental energy to thinking/categorizing/contingency-planning about and with fears which is certainly not ALL humans!) will have a unique list and there is no correct or incorrect prioritization.  And I expect my own list to vary over time and that some things I consider the most terrible may indeed come to pass and I'll have to deal with it in some way. 

With death from a single person's POV, there is a finality to it whereas with other non-death fears, you still have all of the uncertainty afterward of how you're going to pick up the pieces and move on.  That to me is more stressful and scary than death.  Also, I recognize my own mental limitations as like many humans, I tend to discount things in the more distant future compared to what's in front of my face (good survival mechanism though).  Maybe as my own death becomes increasingly likely on a shorter timescale, my fear of it will increase.   Then again, there have been certain profound experiences where I feel not only prepared to greet/experience death but also am aware of the road map of sorts on how to explore and inhabit that mental space on an as-needed basis.  Much of it has to do with humility, reading, meditation, and communication.  Maybe some would call this making peace with death but in my view I'm not sure I would ever call it that.  For now, my fear of death is in a very manageable place but it takes effort (though this has decreased over the past 20 years) and certain times the maintenance is a little more involved.  I don't expect that to change but am open to the idea of being naive/wrong and evolving my strategies should the fear of death become unwieldy.

To each their own, very interesting topic for sure.

"Do not pity the dead, Harry.  Pity the living, and above all, pity those who live without love." Prof. A.P.W.B.D.

"It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live." Marcus Aurelius

"When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home." Tecumseh