POLL: Mustachian Net Worth?

[arebelspy]

Now that we have the demographics for the average Mustachian:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/who-are-you-demographic-poll/msg3965/#msg3965

I'm curious about that average Mustachian's net worth.  I know we have a huge range from people just starting their FI journey (with loads of debt) to others who have made a lot of progress (or may even already be FI!)

Anonymous poll, so no shame, no bragging, just curiosity.  Feel free to comment if you want (and bump the thread), but you don't have to feel any obligation to post, but I'm hoping lots are willing to at least anonymously vote!

For purposes of this poll, let's set the definition of net worth* as:
Any assets you own worth over $500
Minus any liabilities you have.

That would include assets such as house, car, etc.  The $500 limit is so you can skip small items like clothes.  Use your judgement.
Liabilities would include anything you owe.

Here's some things to get you thinking about your Net Worth, if you don't have it on hand (which you should!):
Potential Assets: Cash, Stocks, Bonds, Annuities, Retirement, Home, Other Real Estate, Cars, Personal Property, Other
Potential Liabilities: Home Mortgage(s), Other Mortgage(s), Student Loans, Credit Card, Car Loans, Other

*What exactly net worth is depends on definitions.  While the easy definition is "All assets minus all liabilities," some don't count their primary residence, for example (being that it is a place to live).  I personally don't count any vehicles in my net worth.  I will for this poll though, for uniformity's sake.

[TLV]

I'm irrationally excited to be able to pick the category I did. If you had done this a month ago (or excluded vehicles) then I'd be in the next category down.

What about the potential liability of taxes on tax-deferred accounts?

For the purposes of the poll I'm ignoring them, but for my own spreadsheet and projections I scale my 401k down by the % I expect will be owed in taxes.

[arebelspy]

I'm irrationally excited to be able to pick the category I did. If you had done this a month ago (or excluded vehicles) then I'd be in the next category down.

Hah!  Hope others feel this way, as we're all (hopefully) moving in the right direction!  :D

What about the potential liability of taxes on tax-deferred accounts?

For the purposes of the poll I'm ignoring them, but for my own spreadsheet and projections I scale my 401k down by the % I expect will be owed in taxes.

Oh, good question.  Let's ignore that and just put gross amount in those accounts.

[reverend]

I just realized that if I subtract the $200K I owe on my house, I am pretty far in the hole... damn.

I was just thinking of the cash I could pull out in a weeks notice. :(  (stocks, 401K, checking/savings etc)

On the upside, that also means that I could put a severe dent in my mortgage - let's ignore the issue of whether it's better to have a large mortgage or not - but I won't put a dime extra in the house until it at least breaks even with what I could sell it for. No need to give the bank money for nothing. :)

Of course, throwing in small 5-digit amount would rid me of the PMI, but at $80/month... keeping the 80/month keeps me more liquid.

[MrSaturday]

I just realized that if I subtract the $200K I owe on my house, I am pretty far in the hole... damn.

Make sure you add the value of the home.  A mortgage should only be a negative on your net worth for the amount it's underwater.

[zweipersona]

I wonder how many people looked at 'less than -100k' and thought 'that's me!  I'm at -66k'

Yeah, it's been awhile since I had to deal with greater than, less than, and absolutes :P

[poko]

Yeah, are we including our primary homes here? In my monthly net worth spreadsheet I don't include it .. though the mortgage is in there of course.

I guess I don't include it because I don't want to think about how much I could sell my house for at any given moment and how much it would cost to sell it, etc. Mint uses Zillow for an estimate, so if I'm tired of seeing a negative number (rapidly increasing) in my spreadsheet I take a look at Mint's estimate ;)

[arebelspy]

Yeah, are we including our primary homes here? In my monthly net worth spreadsheet I don't include it .. though the mortgage is in there of course.

I guess I don't include it because I don't want to think about how much I could sell my house for at any given moment and how much it would cost to sell it, etc. Mint uses Zillow for an estimate, so if I'm tired of seeing a negative number (rapidly increasing) in my spreadsheet I take a look at Mint's estimate ;)

Yes, you should include it for this poll.

I would always include it anyways, especially if you're using the mortgage counting against you.

If you don't want to normally, I understand why, but please do for this so we're all on the same page/definition.  :)

[shedinator]

somewhere around -60k, with all but $4k of the negative coming from student loans. Mint says if I count my car, I just cracked the -60 barrier and am up to -58. Last May, we were at -76, so I'm really okay with that :).

[James]

My house just breaks even, I owe what I think I could sell it for quickly.  I've got it listed at a higher number, we aren't desperate to sell yet, but I'll probably drop it down to what I owe on it next spring in the hope it will get more interest.

Mint is great for keeping track of net worth, especially if your situation is complex.  Along with using a value for the house that would be a "quick sell", I also use trade in value for the cars.  "Net worth" has meaning, you can have a number that you keep track of that doesn't include your house, but that wouldn't be your net worth, that would be your net worth minus your house. 

[TheDude]

I'm irrationally excited to be able to pick the category I did. If you had done this a month ago (or excluded vehicles) then I'd be in the next category down.

I wish I could feel that excitement.  I think in about another year we should be able to move up.

[Val]

I was expecting most mustachians in the +250K category. It's quite comforting that there are others with negative or zero net worth. In my case, an underwater mortgage and a few health bills put me in the negative.
I feel that the road to FI ahead of me is extraordinary long, and I can't help to get discouraged sometimes. My saving efforts seem to have very little impact on my net worth. But I keep remembering the MMM post about the snowball that grows and inevitably gets bigger and rolls faster. That keeps me motivated!

[poko]

Ok, cool. With the house (as I just voted) I'm in the 100-250k category. Not counting it, I'm at -75k.

I can't wait until I have enough assets to fully "pay off" the house. I won't, of course, because most of those assets are going to be in retirement funds, but it will be nice to have a positive net worth without counting my home (gotta live somewhere!). At our current rate that crossover should happen around Q4 of 2013. But who knows what will happen in the meanwhile!

[James]

I was expecting most mustachians in the +250K category. It's quite comforting that there are others with negative or zero net worth. In my case, an underwater mortgage and a few health bills put me in the negative.
I feel that the road to FI ahead of me is extraordinary long, and I can't help to get discouraged sometimes. My saving efforts seem to have very little impact on my net worth. But I keep remembering the MMM post about the snowball that grows and inevitably gets bigger and rolls faster. That keeps me motivated!

I'm glad you are here.  Many of the extremely wealthy have long miserable roads ahead of them, I'm grateful the satisfaction and enjoyment of life is not tied to net worth!

I don't think mustachian living is about monetary values, it's about lifestyle values.  I think one of the great things about the mustachian lifestyle is how it tears down barriers between people of various net worths, wealth is no longer so greatly evidenced by a  given standard of living.

[arebelspy]

Mint is great for keeping track of net worth, especially if your situation is complex.

I have a few things Mint won't connect to, so I can't use it for net worth.

I much prefer NetWorthIQ: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/mustachian-web-tools-networthiq/

I was expecting most mustachians in the +250K category.

That's part of why I started this thread.  We're all moving along towards FI, hopefully, but at different places.  It is encouraging to see that other Mustachians have the same struggles and have someone to connect to.  :)

Also +1 to Jame's post.

[gooki]

I was surprised to see no category greater than 250k. But it's probably  good thing - gives an indication of where people are at without making the highest category seem unobtainable.

[strider3700]

off the top of my head something like +140k  including the value of the house based on what we expect to sell it for hopefully soon.  ignore the house and remaining mortgage it's  something like +30 or 40k.  I haven't been tracking specifically as it hasn't overly mattered to me.  All that has mattered is my 1 remaining debt of $206,539.69 as of last friday  which is the mortgage on the house.

[Two9A]

Like others above, I was seriously expecting to be the only one who was in heavily negative territory. My current plan is to work every hour the Lord sends, to pay down the mortgages until they at least match the value of the houses in question.

A few years yet until I get to that point...

[kolorado]

Next week we will be completely debt free when our house in NJ is "closed". We're renting here in CO for now.
I counted our net worth as savings + retirement savings + current value of vehicles + high value items in our home that could be sold - any debt(none!).
I was also surprised and happy with the category I could vote us into. :D

[Val]

I don't think mustachian living is about monetary values, it's about lifestyle values.  I think one of the great things about the mustachian lifestyle is how it tears down barriers between people of various net worths, wealth is no longer so greatly evidenced by a  given standard of living.

You are so right, James. I hadn't see it that way before!

[skyrefuge]

I was expecting most mustachians in the +250K category.

Yeah, me too, sort of, because that's the category MMM is in, that's the perspective he writes from, and thus until I started reading the forum/comments, I didn't expect that people in other categories wouldn't find his writing especially interesting or relateable.  *I* find his writing interesting because I come from a similar background as MMM (high-earning computer engineer, who briefly lived a slightly anti-Mustachian lifestyle but never built up debt), and the "RICH early-retiree" concept filled a blogospheric niche that wasn't filled for me by other financial blogs that focused more on pulling yourself out of debt or cutting your costs by making your own soap.

But then I realized that what truly makes MMM interesting is not that he's just like me, but that he's a future version of who I'd like to be, so it's a preview into the lifestyle I expect to be leading in something like 5 years time.  And if I find him inspirational for a 5-year timeframe, why wouldn't someone feel the same with a 10-year or 20-year timeframe?  And he's probably even more useful for someone with a longer timeframe; I'm just using him to give me a warm fuzzy feeling that my existing plan is actually doable, whereas someone with a longer timeframe can actually use him to learn to *make* such a plan and execute it.

[Kriegsspiel]

I just bumped over 100k last month, but once I buy a house that will eliminate most of my cash.

[fruplicity]

I was also SO excited to pick my category since I just crossed over into above 0 territory two months ago!!!!

I started at around -37,000 in 2009 (the year I began tracking net worth). All from student loans (barf).

None of the loans are paid off yet but it's very encouraging to cross this milestone.

And it'll just keep growing from here!!!

[Nudelkopf]

I'm a 21 year old student with about $10k in savings. Yeah! Although $14,000 in what you'd call student debt (0% government kinda loan)(Australia).

[Gerard]

But then I realized that what truly makes MMM interesting is not that he's just like me, but that he's a future version of who I'd like to be, so it's a preview into the lifestyle I expect to be leading in something like 5 years time.

+1. I find that true for this site as a whole -- people see themselves as being at different stages along a journey, rather than belonging to different static subgroups. It's a lot easier to be a "community" that way. And once you adopt that mindset, it's a lot easier to learn from other people rather than evaluate what/who they are.

[erwannabe]

OK I clicked the wrong one, I thought the first option meant "less than $100,000" not that you were in the red by $100000!!

[Dicey]

With or without real estate, I'm grateful to be at the top of this scale. But here's what really sucks: It's not nearly enough to support an early retirement in my corner of the world. It's easy to say, sell and move somewhere cheaper, but I love my community. I'm an active volunteer and have a rich (and mustachian) social life.
In 2002, I went to a financial planner for the first time. Since then, I have been determined to get my financial house built. My net worth (without real estate, because you have to live somewhere) has tripled in ten years. I don't budget to the bone, but I consider every purchase and expenditure carefully. I tally my net worth monthly. While I monitor spending on a micro level, I have not looked at things in macro much. I was pleasantly surprised at my results when I looked back over two, then five, then ten years. So 250k+ is not enough? No problem. I know if I just keep on keeping on, I will surely get there. Having coaches like ERE and MMM, plus TSD and GRS (especially in their earlier forms) along with a few other favorites really keeps me motivated. Lately, these forums have been very helpful. Glad they exist.

Update 10/4/2013: Holy shit! I had forgotten about this survey. I can't believe how much has changed in such a short time. I fell in love, got married (For the first time! At age 50+!!) and RETIRED! We are now at the highest level on the (revised) scale.

DH plans to retire in 9 years, which is not all that early, but he loves his job and his lifestyle choices espouse the rest of the MMM spectrum. My point in posting this update is to reiterate the point about keeping on and eventually getting to the goal. I got there all of a sudden, but it would not have happend if either of us were unable to manage our wants. Once we combined forces, we smashed through the ceiling and have acheived FI. After years of steady steps, we got there together. It works, it really works!

[Rich M]

This needs an age consideration.

How about a poll that is

net worth/(age-22)...this indicates a normalized age from the average college graduation age to present.

[arebelspy]

This needs an age consideration.

No, it's a poll designed to answer one question: what is the net worth of the average Mustachian.  Age is irrelevant.

If we added an age consideration, we'd probably also want a consideration based on family size, location, income level, maybe education level, etc. etc. etc.  We could slice and dice it forever.  This is asking a simpler question than that. Namely... regardless of your (age/circumstance/shoe size): what is your net worth?

[Kriegsspiel]

I just bumped over 100k last month, but once I buy a house that will eliminate most of my cash.

Now up to over 122,000.  Once I get my rental deposit back (that place was sparkling when I left it), that will be a few grand larger.

[arebelspy]

I just bumped over 100k last month, but once I buy a house that will eliminate most of my cash.

Now up to over 122,000.  Once I get my rental deposit back (that place was sparkling when I left it), that will be a few grand larger.

22k gain in a month (or 22% gain in a month) is an enviable gain. 

Make sure you record it in your journal.  Also check out NetWorthIQ

[catalana]

I'm not convinced that everyone is calculating net worth, given some of the comments.  Whether you have cash, a retirement fund or equity in a house makes no difference to net worth in my calc.

I'm surprised there are not more people in the highest category too - because you can reach that category and still have some way to go before being able to retire.  $250k at a 4% drawdown rate is only $10k per annum, from which you've got to cover your housing costs.  If you have a paid off house, then you've got to add that to your net worth.

A sizeable finance website in the UK asked the same question, and 23% of respondents had net worth > £250k (about $375k).  Results here if you are interested - http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/poll/16-01-2012/how-much-are-you-worth

[arebelspy]

I'm not convinced that everyone is calculating net worth, given some of the comments.  Whether you have cash, a retirement fund or equity in a house makes no difference to net worth in my calc.

I'm surprised there are not more people in the highest category too - because you can reach that category and still have some way to go before being able to retire.  $250k at a 4% drawdown rate is only $10k per annum, from which you've got to cover your housing costs.  If you have a paid off house, then you've got to add that to your net worth.

A sizeable finance website in the UK asked the same question, and 23% of respondents had net worth > £250k (about $375k).  Results here if you are interested - http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/poll/16-01-2012/how-much-are-you-worth

There are 38% in the highest category - i.e. almost 2 in 5.  That seems reasonable.

And doesn't that poll confirm the results?  Doesn't their 23% greater than 375k align almost perfectly with our 38% greater than 250k?

And yes, it's hard to tell if everyone 100% gets the concept with comments like this:

I just bumped over 100k last month, but once I buy a house that will eliminate most of my cash.

(Whereby cash is irrelevant as it's used in a down payment, your net worth will go down slightly due to closing costs.)  However, if one followed the instructions of the poll, it's fine.  And likely every poll has some confused people answering incorrectly.  I don't think this has that issue more than any other poll.

[catalana]

And doesn't that poll confirm the results?  Doesn't their 23% greater than 375k align almost perfectly with our 38% greater than 250k?

Yep - that's why I thought it might be a bigger proportion in mustachian land.  That website is large enough to attract the general population, rather than being skewed towards people aiming for financial independence.

Perhaps there's a common theme of "being interested in saving money"  :)

[Will]

I just think it is awesome that only 13.5% are in debt/negative net worth. 

[Kriegsspiel]

And yes, it's hard to tell if everyone 100% gets the concept with comments like this:

I just bumped over 100k last month, but once I buy a house that will eliminate most of my cash.

I'm not really sure how buying a house works, so I guess you're right.  After thinking about it for more than a second, it makes sense that you'd be "out" the cash amount, but you now "have" the equivalent value in a house, I just haven't thought about it.

[arebelspy]

I'm not really sure how buying a house works, so I guess you're right.  After thinking about it for more than a second, it makes sense that you'd be "out" the cash amount, but you now "have" the equivalent value in a house, I just haven't thought about it.

Exactly.  On your personal "balance sheet" your cash goes down, home equity goes up.  It's a wash, minus closing costs.  Net worth remains the same.

[grantmeaname]

Bump bump bump. It's been a month with a ton of new members, so I'd love to see some more responses on this out of curiosity.

Looks like the largest demographic is those well on their way, followed by people with a small, positive net worth.

[Will]

Interesting (and encouraging) that this poll closed with only about 14% in debt!

[Another Reader]

I think you need to add some higher ranges, for those of us that have been at this a long time (and the Facebook millionaires, of course).  Lots of over 40's read this blog.

Add:

$250-$500,000
$500-$750,000
$750-$1,000,000
$1,000-$2,000,000
Over $2M

My guess is you are going to be very surprised at the results.

[Saving mom]

Agree with Another Reader.

[arebelspy]

There may be more now, I agree, but initially it was more skewed younger (especially due to the ERE crowd coming over).  Though I guess age is one thing not included in the demographics poll linked in the OP.

I also felt over those limits tend lead to less truthful answers, though that may not be the case here on the MMM forums, and at some point it gets in the way and becomes bragging.  (Why would one feel a need to have a separate 2MM category, and not be happy checking a 1MM+ category?) In any event, the poll results ended fairly balanced, and too many categories tend to flatten results.

I do agree on a category of, say, 250-50, and then 750+ (or maybe just an FI one).  I don't see much of a point on over that.  What's the difference between 1.5MM and 2MM?  MMM himself has 750-800ish (plus the paid off house), and it's plenty for him.

Nevertheless, you're right that a higher end category could be added next time the poll is done, maybe in a year or two.

[Another Reader]

Depending on where you live, $400,000 may only buy you a one or two bedroom condo. In my Bay Area tract neighborhood, houses now start in the $800's.  I would not be FI with a net worth of $700-$800,000, and neither would most folks in the high housing cost areas of the country.  $800,000 plus a paid off 2,600 sf house in Longmont probably totals over $1,200,000, making MMM a member of the high net worth group.

It's not about bragging and most folks here seem pretty honest about their finances.  Most higher net worth individuals reading this blog got to be higher net worth by applying a high savings rate and consistent, disciplined investing over many years.  You are probably going to find a lot of your 40 year old plus readers have net worths above $1MM.  It's easily done even for a single person, as long as you maintain the high savings rate and invest wisely.  With your real estate investing goals, YOU will be joining the $1MM club in the not too distant future.  These folks are proof that the principles underlying the MMM approach really do work.

This is my 100th post, making my facial hair suddenly quite a bit longer.  Mustaches are generally considered unattractive on ladies, so there better be something positive about this change!

[arebelspy]

Yes, I agree with all of that, with the exception of (perhaps) the beginning of that last sentence.

[Petruchio]

Yup, I'm about -50,000, due to student loans. :( I was looking to get out of this hole, and that is when I found the MMM. Now I just need a new job to go with my badassity...

[momo]

Any chance we can get an updated or on-going version of this net worth thread? :) Because this one is closed no one else can vote. Thanks for considering the idea.

Cheers!

[arebelspy]

I've unlocked it.

[momo]

Excellent! Thanks arebelspy. Looking forward to learning more about our wonderful MMM community. Oh and I concur with Another Reader we should add more categories over the 250k mark.
$250-$500,000
$500-$750,000
$750-$1,000,000
$1,000-$2,000,000
Over $2M

The results will be quite interesting.
Cheers!

[TheDude]

I forgot about this thread. I just moved up! Its not enough yet but every step counts!

[dragoncar]

Excellent! Thanks arebelspy. Looking forward to learning more about our wonderful MMM community. Oh and I concur with Another Reader we should add more categories over the 250k mark.
$250-$500,000
$500-$750,000
$750-$1,000,000
$1,000-$2,000,000
Over $2M

The results will be quite interesting.
Cheers!

Why don't you just make a new poll?  People have saved a lot over the last year, as evidenced by the 2012 networth increase thread.