Author Topic: Please help me help my parents  (Read 60072 times)

Sandi_k

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #400 on: December 09, 2023, 10:24:30 AM »
Wow. This sounds so much like my sister and her husband of 30 years. He's a binge drinker, and bipolar, so everything is always about walking on eggshells with him so he doesn't feel criticized - which leads to his binge drinking.

My sister is uber-protective of him, which is what marriage confers, OK> But it gets into crazy town when she starts giving us topics which we're not allowed to mention. Such as: college experiences (he didn't go); family plans (all of his immediate family is dead, he's 70 now); travel (he doesn't like hearing about it because he doesn't travel); work (all jobs and bosses are toxic, and if you're successful you're highlighting his inability to keep a job); anything you've seen, purchased, or experienced that might make him feel "less than."

You're much better than I can manage - I finally (10 years after they married, and we had a blowup) told her that SHE had married him, I had not. So I wasn't going to walk on eggshells any more. So we made a couple of boundaries that have worked well:

- We never spend a holiday with them that includes an overnight stay;
- When we come to town and stay with the in-laws, I go to breakfast with my sister, ALONE.

She has now pushed my mom away as well; she's no longer allowed to stay with them while in town (she's 86, FFS). So either she stays with my in-laws (incredibly kind of them), or she rents a hotel room. For Xmas - she's getting a hotel room.

Gah! If I had seen the calendar notation, I would have pointed it out. But that would lead to "future her" never writing it down publicly.

In the end, I think you're doing an amazing job. My only suggestion (other than heavy drinking when you get home!) is to see if there's anything you can do that gives an appearance of time, but reduces talking time. Movies, concerts, museum visits, etc. Then your dad sees the care, but you've limited her time up on the martyr's soapbox.

Gah. So hard. I'm sorry.

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #401 on: December 09, 2023, 04:07:26 PM »
^So I guess that leaves only politics and religion for the conversation, eh? No wonder you go see just your sister. Sorry to read about your troubles. I ditched a problematic alcoholic partner myself for the benefit of my own children, and it was really difficult as I loved the person when sober, but it became clear the binge drinking as massive problems associated with it was never going to stop. Addictions are evil and at some point I had to salvage some degree of normalcy, peace, and predictability in my life. So I have compassion for both you and her. But not for him.

Thank you for the kind words, everyone.

I don't even care if she gets in a snit at me, but I don't want her being nasty to my Dad. He was obviously upset that morning. He's the one I don't want to upset, not her, so I'll keep doing my best when I am there.

I did learn by inquiring at the rental office that what they are paying for room and board to live where they are is just slightly less than what they get from their social security. That's a relief, as I had thought it was more based upon the advertised rates. They also pay utilities, so even just room/board/utilities is over their earnings. It will undoubtedly go up when their lease renews, and it's already ~1200 a month more than what would be recommend as budget for housing and food with their incomes, but it's not quite as bad as I thought. They continue to be massively in the red each month, though, especially since it's clear their discretionary budget burn rate continues at forest fire pace and they no longer have my Dad's income since he finally stopped working.

Sibley

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #402 on: December 09, 2023, 04:21:49 PM »
Have you thought through what you're willing to do when they do run out of money? Soon or later, its going to happen and they're going to get kicked out of the retirement community for non-payment.

Dicey

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #403 on: December 09, 2023, 09:21:57 PM »
Hmmm, usually those places are means tested. I wonder what MIL did to make sure they qualified?

iluvzbeach

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #404 on: December 09, 2023, 09:47:23 PM »
@Dicey, as strange as it may seem, they are not all means tested. We were researching a potential place for MIL earlier this year and I was shocked to learn the place we were looking at only cared about her credit score. No means testing. No buy in. It was very much like an apartment but had a common space for meals. Not sure how many out there were like this but it was part of a large nationwide chain of properties.

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #405 on: December 09, 2023, 10:16:44 PM »
^Yes, this place isn't much different from getting a normal apartment lease other than that they offer the food plan and some organized activities. They have a small non-refundable deposit but it's only about a month's rent up front, not a giant buy-in like some of the graduated-care communities. The activities seem to be free fun things mostly run by the residents themselves (board games, movie night in the common room, singing songs together, that kind of thing.)

As far as what I will do when they run out of money, my Dad's health is very rapidly declining, unfortunately, so he may die before that happens. My plan at one point had been to move him in with me if it came to it, and he really is a sweet guy so that would be fine if it was only him, and I even planned the house I chose with that scenario in mind. But, I can't cope with SM at all at this point, so that's off the table (and I never told them it could on the table, thankfully). If she happens to die first and my Dad is settled in at this current place, then I'll just pay the difference between his social security and the price to keep him there if he is happy. He already seems to know a bunch of people and have a routine there. It would probably be better for him to stay with his friends than be stuck in a house all day with much less social interaction. He doesn't drive, doesn't shop, doesn't use the internet, has good health insurance . . . on his own, his burn rate (outside of room/board/utilities and a few toiletries) is pretty much zero. But because SM spends an absurd amount on her hobbies, I can't plan for the scenario where they both outlive the money other than suggesting that they connect with state and county resources.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 11:53:59 AM by Zamboni »

daverobev

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #406 on: December 10, 2023, 04:42:16 AM »
It's such a shame "we" can't "do something" about these people. This thread has kind of made me realise just how common this awful personality trait is (can't remember what I've said, if anything, but basically my father is the same - nothing's his fault, blames everything on everybody, will spin anyone a yarn if he thinks they will give him money or do favours or whatever - including telling anyone and everyone bad things about everyone else).

So depressing seeing how many lives are wrecked. Like, everyone needs to get at least a little 'narcissist detection/mitigation' training at school, along with personal finance stuff, critical thinking, etc.

I 100% would not have been able to resist pointing at the calendar. MIL is... just evil, honestly. Maybe that's too strong a word, but...

Hugs.

Villanelle

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #407 on: December 10, 2023, 09:09:00 AM »
Is it possible your dad is miserable with her but overwhelmed at the idea of anything else? I'm trying to think of ways to tell him that if he ever wants or needs to leave, you've got space for him, without opening a Pandora's Box, or making him feel like he has to choose between you or her. 

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #408 on: December 10, 2023, 12:27:53 PM »
I managed to not say "hey, look, you wrote my name right here on today on your wall calendar. Why is that?" because my Dad was obviously already very upset by how she was behaving and I was just in de-escalation mode. Which of course is what she wants. Everyone else is to bow to her and go and do whatever she wants. So I helped her with her project du jour as I always so and moved along.

Somehow she always manages to spend more money buying new stuff for projects even though she has multitudes of the exact same items in storage. Literally on that day to do her project du jour we went to get supplies for the project from storage. I saw what I thought she needed based upon the project description and said "here's a whole box full, shall I bring this?" and she said "no, not needed." And then when got back to their place she had bought brand new, still in the package replicas of what she literally had a whole rubbermaid bin full of in storage.

It's some sort of disorder . . . probably a type of hoarding. She claims her second husband was a hoarder, and maybe he was, or maybe it is just projection. But in any case she definitely seems to be a textbook grandiose narcissist now that I've read up on what that is. She makes up all sorts of tales to make herself sound important and wonderful. For example, she repeatedly claims to have been the founder of a large organization that was actually founded by people in a state far from any place she's ever lived. I mean, the history of that organization is quite easy to look up on their website. But she keeps repeating that story every time anyone else's achievement is mention. It's literally been brought up twice by her in the past 4-5 meals I've had with them, I assume always for the benefit of the new person at the table who is likely to be impressed but unlikely to question her story.

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #409 on: December 12, 2023, 06:07:41 PM »
Is it possible your dad is miserable with her but overwhelmed at the idea of anything else? I'm trying to think of ways to tell him that if he ever wants or needs to leave, you've got space for him, without opening a Pandora's Box, or making him feel like he has to choose between you or her.

This is possible. But the few times we've tried to discuss her with him he fully defends her and makes excuses for behaviors that he must know are a problem. Sometimes he just straight up says "that didn't happen," even with siblings together telling him it did happen and we are worried about him. So, my Dad is all aboard the SM train. I've lost a lot of respect for him in the past couple of years because he supports her in behaviors so unethical that it boggles my mind.

Even more things have happened since my recent posts, but I'm going to give it a rest. All of the disruption of trying to cope with her antics when I visit my Dad is killing my normally chill vibe. Because it's virtually impossible to see him without her there hovering, I'm probably going to stop making so many efforts to see him. This is mostly out of self-preservation since it literally takes me days and days to mentally recover from any interaction with them.

Weisass

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #410 on: December 12, 2023, 07:34:53 PM »
Is it possible your dad is miserable with her but overwhelmed at the idea of anything else? I'm trying to think of ways to tell him that if he ever wants or needs to leave, you've got space for him, without opening a Pandora's Box, or making him feel like he has to choose between you or her.

This is possible. But the few times we've tried to discuss her with him he fully defends her and makes excuses for behaviors that he must know are a problem. Sometimes he just straight up says "that didn't happen," even with siblings together telling him it did happen and we are worried about him. So, my Dad is all aboard the SM train. I've lost a lot of respect for him in the past couple of years because he supports her in behaviors so unethical that it boggles my mind.

Even more things have happened since my recent posts, but I'm going to give it a rest. All of the disruption of trying to cope with her antics when I visit my Dad is killing my normally chill vibe. Because it's virtually impossible to see him without her there hovering, I'm probably going to stop making so many efforts to see him. This is mostly out of self-preservation since it literally takes me days and days to mentally recover from any interaction with them.

This sounds hard, but healthy. Take care of yourself, @Zamboni . You are the only you out there.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #411 on: December 12, 2023, 10:23:50 PM »
Is there any pretense for an activity (perhaps when she is booked) to get some time with your dad alone without her, just to be able to focus on time with him unshadowed by her participation? Maybe something you used to do together without other family which you could phrase as like old times? When you have a loved one so far down another relative’s delusional reality even a brief visit solo helps to get your message of care across to them unfiltered (because we remember not what someone says, but how we felt about it… which can be compromised by a need to emotionally manage the abusive/ narcissistic personality in the room), & also gives a chance for them to say if there’s something they need to share honestly without what amounts to punishment.

I found ways to justify this with my enabler relatives, & those memories reconnected us meaningfully towards the ends of their lives.

Laura33

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #412 on: December 13, 2023, 05:50:09 AM »
^So I guess that leaves only politics and religion for the conversation, eh?

Exactly what I was going to say!  And sex -- don't forget sex.  ;-)

Sounds like she's following the standard abuser playbook and punishing him for seeing you/fomenting discord between you to better isolate him.  Unfortunately you can't help someone who refuses to be helped.  Have you talked to a counseler to help deal with all the stress this is causing you?  Some objective outside advice might help you figure out how and when to let go vs. engage.  It's hard enough to see a parent start to fail under any circumstances, much less choosing an incredibly unhealthy situation in the process.  I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.

Metalcat

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #413 on: December 13, 2023, 07:19:21 AM »
^So I guess that leaves only politics and religion for the conversation, eh?

Exactly what I was going to say!  And sex -- don't forget sex.  ;-)

Sounds like she's following the standard abuser playbook and punishing him for seeing you/fomenting discord between you to better isolate him.  Unfortunately you can't help someone who refuses to be helped.  Have you talked to a counseler to help deal with all the stress this is causing you?  Some objective outside advice might help you figure out how and when to let go vs. engage.  It's hard enough to see a parent start to fail under any circumstances, much less choosing an incredibly unhealthy situation in the process.  I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.

Yep, this is all so textbook it's depressing.

@Zamboni as I've said already, it's so painful to have someone you love choose their abuser over their relationship with you. I've been there with my father and I get it.

Villanelle

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #414 on: December 13, 2023, 09:10:50 AM »
I also keyed in on the abuser pattern.  It's part of why I mentioned trying to find a way to let him know that if he wants out he has a place to go, and not just go, but be welcomed with open arms.  Even helping him to imagine what that life might look and feel like could maybe take leaving from being something he can't begin to consider, to a real possibility.  It might make it seem less scary and overwhelming.

But expressing concern over the relationship, even in as supportive and non-judgmental way as possible, could also cause him to distance himself from you.  Fear of her reactions, shame, guilt, or not wanting to see reality (assuming that is his reality) can lead abuse victims (or just those in really unhealhty relationships, if it hasn't yet reached the level of abuse) to turn away from help and toward the abuser.  It's all part of the abuser's plan and strategy. 

In your shoes, I might be willing to try it because it doesn't seem like things can get much worse in the relationship between you and your dad.  Do whatever you can to get him alone, express loving concern with maybe one or two concrete examples (like her telling you the visit was a surprise, but it being on the calendar and her berating him about it the night before).  Tell him you love him and respect his choices, but that it seems like a very difficult, stressful, troubling environment and you want him to know that if he ever needs a place to stay, short or long term, your door is always open.  Then leave it there. 

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #415 on: December 13, 2023, 03:49:48 PM »
Thank you for the kind words, everyone. It's really helpful to think about it that way: he is choosing his abuser over his kids. It's also helpful to know he's not the first person to do that, and I'm sure he won't be the last.

If you want some idea how controlling she is: she was completely against him having is own mobile phone. I bought him one anyway awhile ago, as he said he would like to have one, and then she wanted me to set it up with her biometrics for unlocking it instead of his. I refused. I was kind but firm: this is his phone, you already have a phone, he wants a phone and I want him to have it for when he is walking around somewhere if you aren't there. She was very upset and pitched a fit. I'm sure it got worse after I left, because I could see how agitated she was. Basically it made that entire visit difficult. Then my Dad called me the next day to say SM was upset so he needed me to set up the phone with her fingerprint to unlock it instead of his. I politely refused, reminding him that it is his phone, not hers. She has her own mobile phone, I reminded him. I reminded him that she knows how to unlock it another way because I made the passcode his birthday while they were both sitting there. Then, after a couple of months, she demanded that he stop using it because according to her (what she told me) he had made a "pledge" to a telemarketer call. But my Dad knows not to answer their home phone if he doesn't recognize the number, so I have no reason to believe he answered his mobile phone with a strange number. He also doesn't know any of their financial information at all. Seriously. I just don't believe anything she says, but long story short she took the phone away from him and eventually gave it back to me. I suspect she probably told him that I demanded to have the phone back. It would be textbook SM playbook if that's how it all went down.

100% this whole phone absurdity is because she doesn't want him talking to anyone without her there on the other line. I know she always picks up the other phone in their house and listens in when I call because she is short of breath all the time and I'll hear her distinctive breathing, plus often she chimes in out the blue.

At some point I will let him know that she insisted I have his mobile phone. I only took it back because he had stopped answering it, then eventually it stayed uncharged, so I figured she had taken it away (she had.) There's no point in a brand new iphone sitting in their drawer unused because it's been seized.

She always does that type of thing when he's not around . . . seriously just if he ducks in the bathroom or goes to check the mail or goes off to talk with someone else at a social function she'll immediately jump to action with something like that or she'll tell some story to me about how senile/incompetent he is, always with the underlying message that he can only get by because she takes care of him. I never want another moment with her alone with me again.

I think what I'll do is call and call each day until I catch him when she is gone. That's my only chance. Although even the rare occasion I manage to talk with him alone he just gaslights me, so I'm not sure there is any point, but I'll keep calling. "I know she says stuff like that, Zamboni, but she doesn't mean it." "You have to understand she is like this because of how her Mom acted." "SM would never lie to you. I assure you she has never told you a lie." Seriously he'll say that last bit right after telling me that the exact opposite of what she has said is actually true. This has happened several times. It's how I found out she didn't actually have cancer, for example. I was telling him how sorry I was about her cancer and that I didn't want him too worry about the future because I'd always be there for him, and then he just said "oh, the doctor has been telling her all along this isn't cancer. I'm not even a little bit worried because she definitely doesn't have cancer." Then I'll ask if he knows she is saying the opposite, and he'll say "I know." And then if I ask why she is saying something different, and he'll just say he doesn't know, or that she doesn't mean it, or that she is scared. and on and on.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #416 on: December 13, 2023, 04:47:59 PM »
Zamboni, I've been lurking in this thread, but I don't think I've replied up to now. Your post above, after my initial gasp (seriously...out loud), leaves me somewhere between speechless and wanting to say a series of bad words and phrases (ones that could be abbreviated JFC...WTAF?...and so on...). I don't know how you're holding it together. But I'm sure having this thread in which to vent is quite...therapeutic??? 

I just don't even know what to say. I know that's not helpful. I find SM's behavior despicable. And of course abusive.

Hang in there.

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #417 on: December 13, 2023, 04:56:38 PM »
It just occurred to me that I can check the call history on the phone to see if he actually did pick up a strange number . . . nope, almost all call history erased. Lol.

So now my guess is that she took it from him the day after I gave it to him months ago and was using it herself up until a month ago because it is newer than her phone. She had made several remarks about how old her phone was when I was giving the new phone to him. As a mustachian you can probably imagine my response: a cheerful "Cool, my phone is even older than yours, still works!" He would sometimes answer my calls after a few rings when I called from my mobile number that is programmed into the contacts as me, or no one would answer, but she was the one who answered it about a month ago when I called it from my google voice number that wasn't programmed in. I wasn't trying to trick them, just using my google voice out of convenience and to keep that number activated. When she answered I said "Hi SM, this is Zamboni. I'm confused, why are you answering my Dad's phone?" She made some excuse about him not being able to reach it and handed it to him. All call history up to and including that date (which I can see as an outgoing call in Google Voice) is erased. The log has only a small number of incoming calls starting two days after that date, the oldest of which was from her and she left a 20 second breathing "voicemail" where she didn't say anything. I'm guessing she was calling it to make sure she had cleaned out any voicemail greeting. She even erased the log of my incoming calls after that except for the one the day before my arrival when I left a message. Obviously I can see the dates and durations of my outgoing calls to him in my own phone.

So there you go. Careful to cover her tracks, she is.

If she's afraid of my wrath at this point, then all I can say is that she should be. I'm not going to upset my Dad, but once he's gone I'll be pleasant enough at the funeral, then I'm dropping the gloves and she won't even know what's happening.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #418 on: December 13, 2023, 05:04:02 PM »
I gotta hand it to her. She might just be the most conniving and manipulative person I'll never meet.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #419 on: December 13, 2023, 05:23:03 PM »
I gotta hand it to her. She might just be the most conniving and manipulative person I'll never meet.

And very tech-savvy at her age.

My basic reaction is also WTF?!?!?


Kris

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #420 on: December 13, 2023, 06:17:40 PM »
God. This is just so grotesque. I’m so sorry, Zamboni. It’s amazing to me how awful your SM is.

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #421 on: December 13, 2023, 08:14:28 PM »
Yes, she is by far the most conniving and manipulative person I have ever met. That's completely accurate. There's not even a close second in my life. I wish I could say I never met her.

She has basic tech skills. She's certainly an online shopping addict, and she does all her banking online.

She'd probably go straight from telling me that Dad can't figure out how to answer his phone, and that's why he didn't answer half the times I called (although I never ever said anything about him not answering half the time, this was indeed part of her explanation for why she needed to give it back to me) to claiming that he's the one who took the time to go in and erased the entire call log up through the day she got caught answering it. Oh, and he also deleted all the text messages and voicemails. Sure. Totally makes sense.

I will say this: she knows that I know. Maybe not about the phone, as I'm sure she thinks she fooled me on that one, but she knows I know about the money part. That doesn't stop her from continuing the general grift and con. It's just a way of life for her.

G-dog

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #422 on: December 13, 2023, 08:27:20 PM »
I wish you could say your dad never met her too. 

Metalcat

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #423 on: December 13, 2023, 09:50:18 PM »
Zamboni, have you done any reading about how to cope with people with personality disorders?

I'm obviously not diagnosing her, but I suspect that personality disorder management strategies would be very helpful.

The problem with dealing with people with personality disorders is that you see their behavior through a lense of expecting them to be able to act reasonably. Everything they do that's so egregious feels like a massive deviation from what you know to be acceptable. But to them, it is *totally* acceptable behaviour. In their warped world view, they're not at all "bad" people breaking the rules of interpersonal conduct, they're totally reasonable people doing what's best in any given situation. What's reasonable to them is horribly calibrated.

Everybody lies, but we have an understanding of what lies are reasonable and what aren't. So when someone lies beyond what we consider to be reasonable, we see them as actively breaking the social contract. Someone with a personality disorder knows they're lying, but feels like it is actually within the limits of reasonable even if to everyone else it's a massive violation of the social contract.

It's not that they can't tell that they're being manipulative assholes, it's that being an asshole is fully within the limits of totally reasonable behaviour. Again, we all lie, we all manipulate to some degree, their degree of what feels like an okay amount of lying and manipulation is just broader.

What happens is that a personality disorder can create a person who consistent feels like they're behaving absolutely reasonably, but in reality, they're perpetually engaging in what everyone else perceives as totally unacceptable behaviour. But because they truly feel their actions and reactions are reasonable and proportional, everyone else's outrage and attacks feel unjustified and persecutory.

So how do you deal with that?? Well, it's really fucking hard.

It's a lot easier to deal with someone who is just an asshole be ause they've decided it's worth it, because at least you can intuitively understand their behaviours and motivations. But with a personality disorder, it's extremely destabilizing because you can't Intuit based on your own understanding of what's normal. So a lot of behaviour is seriously shocking and distressing and hard to make sense of, because well, you can't really, not unless you get so intimate with that person that you truly grasp their world view. But why would you do that with someone who treats you and your loved ones like garbage?

The advice I give to people who have to deal with someone with a personality disorder for the sake of someone else is to try and treat them like a series of behavioural patterns. Try to take the morality out of it, because they're not doing the things they're doing for the same reasons that you would if you did them.

You cannot really understand them and no amount of outrage or consequences is going to change them. All you can do is try to understand their patterns and work within that system of patterns. What stimulus triggers them to behave in ways you prefer and what stimulus sets them off more? When they are set off, how much time usually lapses before they circle back and reengage?

It might be absolutely true that she's like this because of her mother. If her mother was abusive, her foundational understanding of how people behave with one another could have been fundamentally warped. Again, this is not an excuse, people can choose to seek help and work on their warped world view instead of choosing to scam everyone around them.

My point is not that you should give her a pass, my point is that you shouldn't let yourself get sucked into getting constantly outraged at her, because that is just a heat sink of suffering that is essentially meaningless.

She may not have a personality disorder, she may just be an epic asshole and fully, accurately aware of how much  of a prick she is and exactly how harmful her behaviours are to the people around her.

Either way, her behaviour is extreme and confounding enough that resources on how to handle people with personality disorders is likely to help you develop strategies to stay more sane in your dealings with her.

I'm currently coaching someone on how to manage encounters with a woman with severe BPD from childhood abuse. She hates her and is dealing with her for the sake of a young child in distress who needs support. Every few days I have to remind her that this isn't about the woman with BPD, it's about the child. The woman with BPD is just a collection of behaviours to manage, it's not worth focusing on her at all as an object or moral outrage. Shell never subscribe to that outrage, she will never be able to even understand it, so it serves zero purpose.

Your outrage with your step mom served a great purpose of curing you of a sense of responsibility to your parents financially. That's cool. But now comes the hard work of trying to contain her in your own mind if you are going to choose to stay connected to your father.

Try to start moving more towards perceiving her as psychologically deranged. When she does something fucking awful, try to imaging how bizarre her sense of normal must be to do such insane shit. How mangled must her experience of the world and the people around her be to get caught lying and then pull this shit to your face?? It's actually kind of unfathomable. It would take balls of steel for someone neurotypical with no personality disorder to consciously and cognizantly do that shit with full ability to anticipate how others would perceive it.

She likely cannot. She likely cannot anticipate how a "normal" person would feel in response to her actions, which is probably why she's able to do them.

It's truly horrifyingly fascinating when you look at it through that lense rather than the lense of what it would take for YOU to behave that way.

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #424 on: December 14, 2023, 06:11:45 AM »
Brilliant stuff right there. My dad's wife is a relatively mild, frugal version of Zamboni's dad's wife. I've learned through the years that when she says or does something awful to just roll my eyes (inside my head), tell myself that's just who she is, and change the subject to one of her favorite topics...and we all move along relatively peacefully. As long as I pretend I'm dealing with a manipulative, broken toddler/senior, I can get through visits without taking things too personally.

It's aggravating that others don't see it, but it's the cost of having a relationship with my father since she's the gatekeeper.

Zamboni's situation is 100 times worse than mine...I'm not sure I could pull it off if I had to deal with that level of awful.


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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #425 on: December 14, 2023, 06:44:47 AM »
Brilliant stuff right there. My dad's wife is a relatively mild, frugal version of Zamboni's dad's wife. I've learned through the years that when she says or does something awful to just roll my eyes (inside my head), tell myself that's just who she is, and change the subject to one of her favorite topics...and we all move along relatively peacefully. As long as I pretend I'm dealing with a manipulative, broken toddler/senior, I can get through visits without taking things too personally.

It's aggravating that others don't see it, but it's the cost of having a relationship with my father since she's the gatekeeper.

Zamboni's situation is 100 times worse than mine...I'm not sure I could pull it off if I had to deal with that level of awful.

Yep, it's impossible not to get angry when someone is hurting someone you love, but the key is to not let that person suck you into making all of your feelings about the situation be about them.

Someone with a personality disorder can really monopolize space in your head if you don't try to contain it.

If Zamboni is being emotionally affected for days after encountering her, then SM has burroughed in and taken root in her psyche. That's why it's great that there are so many resources out there for how to manage people with personality disorders.

They're pretty common in society, so tons and tons of people have learned the hard way how to handle them while minimizing the emotional damage to themselves.

The person I'm helping coach right now, I had to have a harsh talk with her and say "you realize that you call me every two days and talk exclusively about (person with BPD). You used to tell me stories about the child, but I haven't heard about her in nearly 6 weeks. Instead I get a detailed accounting of every awful thing that (person with BPD) does and how everyone involved is angry about her."

It wasn't said from a place of judgement, I just needed this person to realize how much of her psychic energy she was dedicating to someone who will NEVER change her behaviour. I said "this is normal for her, having people pissed off at her is NORMAL for her, she's just going to conclude that you're an asshole. No amount of outrage or anger from you, or catching her in lies is going to prompt her to change her behaviour because people being outraged at her and catching her in lies is her normal. Unless you contain how she impacts you, you will be the one to suffer from her mental issues, she'll just keep on trucking as she always has because none of this is unusual for her. Her brain is conditioned to tolerate *and welcome* exactly this kind of drama, yours isn't."

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #426 on: December 14, 2023, 07:17:04 AM »
Dating a crazy narcissist in my late 30s gave me a crash course on personality disorders. Until then I'd led a relatively drama-free life. I had no idea what I was dealing with because I'd never experienced it.

It took another person pointing out his patterns (and using the term "personality disorder") before I could extricate myself from the relationship.

Even then, he took up a lot of space in my head. Gaslighting and emotional abuse do a number on you...and these people are adept at knowing just how to manipulate their marks.

Metalcat

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #427 on: December 14, 2023, 07:31:42 AM »
Dating a crazy narcissist in my late 30s gave me a crash course on personality disorders. Until then I'd led a relatively drama-free life. I had no idea what I was dealing with because I'd never experienced it.

It took another person pointing out his patterns (and using the term "personality disorder") before I could extricate myself from the relationship.

Even then, he took up a lot of space in my head. Gaslighting and emotional abuse do a number on you...and these people are adept at knowing just how to manipulate their marks.

Yeppers!

I have a BPD mother, so I have a pretty attuned sense of personality disorders, but it meant that for most of my life I actually attracted them to me because I was so good at dealing with them. For years I would end up working with only narcissistic bosses because narcs are super generous and supportive of staff who are skilled at stroking their egos and don't take their cruelty personally. So I was getting huge professional benefits all while causing consistent emotional damage to myself.

Fun times.

ETA: fun fact though, my mom's BPD seems to be gone now that she's had massive frontal lobe brain damage. So that's kind of cool. She's also suddenly way more reasonable about money. So that's a single anecdote that supports the concept that personality disorders are a form of neurodivergence that is caused by structural alterations to the brain as a response to early trauma, which is a concept that has been floating around for a good long time.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 07:38:16 AM by Metalcat »

LaineyAZ

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #428 on: December 14, 2023, 07:43:25 AM »
Not having reliable access to a phone is the most alarming to me.  I'd be contacting Adult Protective Services.

But I like your idea of calling every day.  Your persistence in helping protect your dad is admirable.  He may not appreciate it but you're a good son.

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #429 on: December 14, 2023, 10:53:28 AM »
I just needed this person to realize how much of her psychic energy she was dedicating to someone who will NEVER change her behaviour. I said "this is normal for her, having people pissed off at her is NORMAL for her, she's just going to conclude that you're an asshole. No amount of outrage or anger from you, or catching her in lies is going to prompt her to change her behaviour because people being outraged at her and catching her in lies is her normal. Unless you contain how she impacts you, you will be the one to suffer from her mental issues, she'll just keep on trucking as she always has because none of this is unusual for her. Her brain is conditioned to tolerate *and welcome* exactly this kind of drama, yours isn't."

The best part of all of this is that if you can manage to emotionally detach from the person and treat them as no more significant than a horse treats a horsefly buzzing around, that is by far the best way to piss them off, because your anger/engagement is part of the payoff they get from their behavior, and depriving them of that payoff frustrates the hell out of them.

It'll still all be your fault, of course.  ;-)  But you'll be a lot healthier in the process.

Metalcat

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #430 on: December 14, 2023, 11:41:26 AM »
I just needed this person to realize how much of her psychic energy she was dedicating to someone who will NEVER change her behaviour. I said "this is normal for her, having people pissed off at her is NORMAL for her, she's just going to conclude that you're an asshole. No amount of outrage or anger from you, or catching her in lies is going to prompt her to change her behaviour because people being outraged at her and catching her in lies is her normal. Unless you contain how she impacts you, you will be the one to suffer from her mental issues, she'll just keep on trucking as she always has because none of this is unusual for her. Her brain is conditioned to tolerate *and welcome* exactly this kind of drama, yours isn't."

The best part of all of this is that if you can manage to emotionally detach from the person and treat them as no more significant than a horse treats a horsefly buzzing around, that is by far the best way to piss them off, because your anger/engagement is part of the payoff they get from their behavior, and depriving them of that payoff frustrates the hell out of them.

It'll still all be your fault, of course.  ;-)  But you'll be a lot healthier in the process.

Exactly.

A parallel that I draw is to imagine someone who thinks it's totally normal to get into fist fights. When you have conflict with someone who is neurotypical and mentally healthy, you can pretty much bank on the fact that like you, they perceived a conflict escalating to violence as an extreme and incredibly unwanted outcome.

But say you have someone who was raised in violence and genuinely feels like punching people in the face is a totally reasonable response to any degree of confrontation. They're just going to keep punching you in the fucking face and they're absolutely fine with you punching back. You're engaging in something unacceptable and traumatic, and they're engaging in something that's just their run of the mill Tuesday. Hell, you're not even the first first fight they've had today, it's that normal for them.

No matter how many times you scream at them "you punched me in the fucking face you asshole!" They're never ever going to internalize the message that punching you was an unreasonable thing to do. To them, you're just a whiny bitch who doesn't understand the point of punching. And if you charge them with assault, you're an asshole who made a HUGE DEAL out of nothing and persecuted them for their totally normal punching behaviour.

Your reaction to them punching you in the face is unreasonable,.not them punching you. And they will never see it any other way.

They *can* if they get really good therapy, people with personality disorders aren't hopeless cases, but they can be incredibly difficult to treat, so someone with an untreated personality disorder who is deep into toxic behaviours is essentially a hopeless case unless and until they choose to seek help, which the most toxic ones generally won't, because, why would they? They're not the assholes freaking out about a normal punch in the face.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #431 on: December 14, 2023, 01:54:03 PM »
This is helpful for me also.
I have a stepfather [I prefer Mom’s husband] who is estranged* with his adult children.
I’ve learned to smile and laugh, despite his provocative behavior, and that simmers him down quite a bit.

I’m not above being barky myself, but that is what he feeds on.
Also beneficial was blocking his phone. 
I didn’t like doing it, since Mom no longer is capable of using anything with buttons, but my sanity was slipping.
I have since unblocked it , without announcing it loudly , and now only truly vital messages are sent.

*spot for a text from youngest daughter. “He can take the rest of his time in this planet and shove it up his diapered ass”
 I thought that was a bit harsh at the time. I then changed to total agreement.  Now I’m just ‘whatever, meh” about him.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 02:14:40 PM by markbike528CBX »

Turtle

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #432 on: December 15, 2023, 09:53:39 AM »
I just needed this person to realize how much of her psychic energy she was dedicating to someone who will NEVER change her behaviour. I said "this is normal for her, having people pissed off at her is NORMAL for her, she's just going to conclude that you're an asshole. No amount of outrage or anger from you, or catching her in lies is going to prompt her to change her behaviour because people being outraged at her and catching her in lies is her normal. Unless you contain how she impacts you, you will be the one to suffer from her mental issues, she'll just keep on trucking as she always has because none of this is unusual for her. Her brain is conditioned to tolerate *and welcome* exactly this kind of drama, yours isn't."

The best part of all of this is that if you can manage to emotionally detach from the person and treat them as no more significant than a horse treats a horsefly buzzing around, that is by far the best way to piss them off, because your anger/engagement is part of the payoff they get from their behavior, and depriving them of that payoff frustrates the hell out of them.

It'll still all be your fault, of course.  ;-)  But you'll be a lot healthier in the process.

Exactly.

A parallel that I draw is to imagine someone who thinks it's totally normal to get into fist fights. When you have conflict with someone who is neurotypical and mentally healthy, you can pretty much bank on the fact that like you, they perceived a conflict escalating to violence as an extreme and incredibly unwanted outcome.

But say you have someone who was raised in violence and genuinely feels like punching people in the face is a totally reasonable response to any degree of confrontation. They're just going to keep punching you in the fucking face and they're absolutely fine with you punching back. You're engaging in something unacceptable and traumatic, and they're engaging in something that's just their run of the mill Tuesday. Hell, you're not even the first first fight they've had today, it's that normal for them.

No matter how many times you scream at them "you punched me in the fucking face you asshole!" They're never ever going to internalize the message that punching you was an unreasonable thing to do. To them, you're just a whiny bitch who doesn't understand the point of punching. And if you charge them with assault, you're an asshole who made a HUGE DEAL out of nothing and persecuted them for their totally normal punching behaviour.

Your reaction to them punching you in the face is unreasonable,.not them punching you. And they will never see it any other way.

They *can* if they get really good therapy, people with personality disorders aren't hopeless cases, but they can be incredibly difficult to treat, so someone with an untreated personality disorder who is deep into toxic behaviours is essentially a hopeless case unless and until they choose to seek help, which the most toxic ones generally won't, because, why would they? They're not the assholes freaking out about a normal punch in the face.

This is such a good illustration.  Very helpful break down, and applicable to so many aspects of dysfunctional behavior.  Thank you.

getsorted

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #433 on: December 15, 2023, 10:08:13 AM »
A parallel that I draw is to imagine someone who thinks it's totally normal to get into fist fights. When you have conflict with someone who is neurotypical and mentally healthy, you can pretty much bank on the fact that like you, they perceived a conflict escalating to violence as an extreme and incredibly unwanted outcome.

But say you have someone who was raised in violence and genuinely feels like punching people in the face is a totally reasonable response to any degree of confrontation. They're just going to keep punching you in the fucking face and they're absolutely fine with you punching back. You're engaging in something unacceptable and traumatic, and they're engaging in something that's just their run of the mill Tuesday. Hell, you're not even the first first fight they've had today, it's that normal for them.

No matter how many times you scream at them "you punched me in the fucking face you asshole!" They're never ever going to internalize the message that punching you was an unreasonable thing to do. To them, you're just a whiny bitch who doesn't understand the point of punching. And if you charge them with assault, you're an asshole who made a HUGE DEAL out of nothing and persecuted them for their totally normal punching behaviour.

Your reaction to them punching you in the face is unreasonable,.not them punching you. And they will never see it any other way.

They *can* if they get really good therapy, people with personality disorders aren't hopeless cases, but they can be incredibly difficult to treat, so someone with an untreated personality disorder who is deep into toxic behaviours is essentially a hopeless case unless and until they choose to seek help, which the most toxic ones generally won't, because, why would they? They're not the assholes freaking out about a normal punch in the face.

I know this is your imaginary example, but I have had almost this exact conversation with someone. They went on to punch a lot of people in the face and basically ruin their own life. They still believe all those people deserved it and made a big deal out of it, and that they are the real victim.

My therapist said something to me that helped me understand why I had bent so far to accommodate this person: "When someone has an extremely rigid, inflexible way of being in the world, they're like a boulder in a stream. Of course it makes more sense to go bend around them. You're never going to get anywhere if you don't."

It is so, so hard to stop expecting reasonable behavior from someone who seems entirely capable of reason. But they aren't. There is a psychic shield of self-protection around their minds. The person in my life who is this way, would rather blow up his entire life than change anything about himself-- and has done, more than once. @Metalcat used the word "dehumanize," and it's very much like that. I think of it like, there's a bear who lives in a human house and wears human clothes. He can do a lot of human stuff. But when the chips are down, he's not going to do what a human would do. He's going to do bear shit.

The best predictor of what people will do, is what they have always done.

Kris

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #434 on: December 15, 2023, 10:58:30 AM »
A parallel that I draw is to imagine someone who thinks it's totally normal to get into fist fights. When you have conflict with someone who is neurotypical and mentally healthy, you can pretty much bank on the fact that like you, they perceived a conflict escalating to violence as an extreme and incredibly unwanted outcome.

But say you have someone who was raised in violence and genuinely feels like punching people in the face is a totally reasonable response to any degree of confrontation. They're just going to keep punching you in the fucking face and they're absolutely fine with you punching back. You're engaging in something unacceptable and traumatic, and they're engaging in something that's just their run of the mill Tuesday. Hell, you're not even the first first fight they've had today, it's that normal for them.

No matter how many times you scream at them "you punched me in the fucking face you asshole!" They're never ever going to internalize the message that punching you was an unreasonable thing to do. To them, you're just a whiny bitch who doesn't understand the point of punching. And if you charge them with assault, you're an asshole who made a HUGE DEAL out of nothing and persecuted them for their totally normal punching behaviour.

Your reaction to them punching you in the face is unreasonable,.not them punching you. And they will never see it any other way.

They *can* if they get really good therapy, people with personality disorders aren't hopeless cases, but they can be incredibly difficult to treat, so someone with an untreated personality disorder who is deep into toxic behaviours is essentially a hopeless case unless and until they choose to seek help, which the most toxic ones generally won't, because, why would they? They're not the assholes freaking out about a normal punch in the face.

I know this is your imaginary example, but I have had almost this exact conversation with someone. They went on to punch a lot of people in the face and basically ruin their own life. They still believe all those people deserved it and made a big deal out of it, and that they are the real victim.

My therapist said something to me that helped me understand why I had bent so far to accommodate this person: "When someone has an extremely rigid, inflexible way of being in the world, they're like a boulder in a stream. Of course it makes more sense to go bend around them. You're never going to get anywhere if you don't."

It is so, so hard to stop expecting reasonable behavior from someone who seems entirely capable of reason. But they aren't. There is a psychic shield of self-protection around their minds. The person in my life who is this way, would rather blow up his entire life than change anything about himself-- and has done, more than once. @Metalcat used the word "dehumanize," and it's very much like that. I think of it like, there's a bear who lives in a human house and wears human clothes. He can do a lot of human stuff. But when the chips are down, he's not going to do what a human would do. He's going to do bear shit.

The best predictor of what people will do, is what they have always done.

I think I'm going to boil all this down into a statement to remind myself when I need it: "Bears do bear shit."

Metalcat

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #435 on: December 15, 2023, 11:27:20 AM »
I think I'm going to boil all this down into a statement to remind myself when I need it: "Bears do bear shit."

Yep, and I'm 100% stealing it

ETA: it reminds me of DH's former therapist during his divorce, the therapist kept saying something similar, he kept saying "Stop trying to make sense of her actions, she's a criminal, she thinks like a criminal. You're not a criminal, you don't think the same way. She will never make sense to you."
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 11:28:55 AM by Metalcat »

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #436 on: December 15, 2023, 01:45:53 PM »
Yes, this is all basically how my therapist reacted to my recounting of SM's shenanigans. The advice was that I was letting her drag me down with her antics every time I visited them, which spoiled my time with my Dad, when the best thing to do is just hold my head high and look beyond her to better things in life.

So the last few visits I've combined going to see them with seeing other friends from childhood. That way I don't feel like I went out of my way and spent my time & money yet again to let someone shit on me for the entire weekend. Instead, I reframe it as I went to see my friends John and Mike, which was great, and I just happened to do a few things with Dad along the way, and SM was there trying to steer the ship into another iceberg but I'm much stronger and can control the rudder anyway.

Apologies for the people who like insects, but SM is way more like a mosquito than a bear.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #437 on: December 15, 2023, 08:45:01 PM »
Yes, this is all basically how my therapist reacted to my recounting of SM's shenanigans. The advice was that I was letting her drag me down with her antics every time I visited them, which spoiled my time with my Dad, when the best thing to do is just hold my head high and look beyond her to better things in life.

So the last few visits I've combined going to see them with seeing other friends from childhood. That way I don't feel like I went out of my way and spent my time & money yet again to let someone shit on me for the entire weekend. Instead, I reframe it as I went to see my friends John and Mike, which was great, and I just happened to do a few things with Dad along the way, and SM was there trying to steer the ship into another iceberg but I'm much stronger and can control the rudder anyway.

Apologies for the people who like insects, but SM is way more like a mosquito than a bear.

Mosquitoes are major disease transmitters.  I like this analogy.

TomTX

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #438 on: December 15, 2023, 09:08:54 PM »
If you are the executor of an estate that has more debts than assets I'd look into whether it's legally possible to refuse to act.  Otherwise you have to sell all the assets for the best price possible and distribute the proceeds to the debtors and there will be rules about how that should be done and who gets paid first.  If you are next of kin to someone who dies with more debts than assets and haven't been appointed executor then run, don't walk: not your job to volunteer as debt collector for the people stupid enough to have lent money to the dead deadbeat.
My MIL's father died about 20 years ago. As far as I can tell, nothing was done with regard to the estate - she simply ignored it and moved a bunch of her crap* into the house to use it as a storage facility. Tax records show it's still in deceased dad's name, and someone is paying the taxes.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #439 on: December 15, 2023, 11:56:13 PM »
...So the last few visits I've combined going to see them with seeing other friends from childhood. That way I don't feel like I went out of my way and spent my time & money yet again to let someone shit on me for the entire weekend. ...
This is excellent. I did something similar, though for me the greater benefit was being grounded immediately before or afterwards in a non-disordered reality - it helped me avoid spending days afterward ruminating on the why of it because I didn't need to reassure myself that the dysfunctional parties were in fact the ones with the issues, perhaps because I was no longer outnumbered.

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #440 on: December 16, 2023, 08:48:42 AM »
Lordy, google obviously tracks what I write here because YouTube started suggesting bear attack videos. Great.

Now imma have to retrain it to go back to videos on surfing, skiing, macroeconomics, feng shui, shoplifting arrests, Bill Burr, glitter bombs, singing parrots, literally anything but bear attacks. Because it appears bears are pretty badass if they decide they need to eat you for their survival right before they go into hibernation. And the worst part about these videos is that the poor hungry bear is invariable then found and killed by other people . . . for being a bear.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #441 on: December 16, 2023, 08:58:48 AM »
Or you could switch to Firefox, & your Youtube recommendations will stay related to what you do on Youtube & Google websites specifically. Strongly recommended.

Google has abandoned the last vestiges of their former "don't be evil" motto with the current incarnation of Chrome. Ad companies do ad company shit, & Google is now an ad company.

Zamboni

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #442 on: December 16, 2023, 09:52:20 AM »
Yeah, I sacrifice myself to Chrome for the rest of my family. One child uses Firefox and the other uses Safari. This prevents all of us from having to login and logout of gmail all of the time on the shared computer. This paragraph brought to you by my frugality muscles.

iris lily

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #443 on: December 16, 2023, 10:42:56 AM »
Lordy, google obviously tracks what I write here because YouTube started suggesting bear attack videos. Great.

Now imma have to retrain it to go back to videos on surfing, skiing, macroeconomics, feng shui, shoplifting arrests, Bill Burr, glitter bombs, singing parrots, literally anything but bear attacks. Because it appears bears are pretty badass if they decide they need to eat you for their survival right before they go into hibernation. And the worst part about these videos is that the poor hungry bear is invariable then found and killed by other people . . . for being a bear.
I like  Bill Burr too.



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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #444 on: December 16, 2023, 10:48:28 AM »
Ad companies do ad company shit, & Google is now an ad company.

Worse than bears.  If you aren't paying for it, you're the product, not the customer.  (Or, it's nonprofit and open source!)

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #445 on: December 16, 2023, 11:24:30 AM »
Yeah, I sacrifice myself to Chrome for the rest of my family. One child uses Firefox and the other uses Safari. This prevents all of us from having to login and logout of gmail all of the time on the shared computer. This paragraph brought to you by my frugality muscles.
Firefox has profiles now! Their text - "Each profile is a separate world which contains separate history, bookmarks, settings and add-ons." You can set your kid's as the default profile but swap to yours without altering their setup. Just open a new Firefox window and type
Code: [Select]
about:profilesThen hit enter, & get started with Create a New Profile to create your own.

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #446 on: December 16, 2023, 11:25:41 AM »
Yeah, I sacrifice myself to Chrome for the rest of my family. One child uses Firefox and the other uses Safari. This prevents all of us from having to login and logout of gmail all of the time on the shared computer. This paragraph brought to you by my frugality muscles.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profile-manager-create-remove-switch-firefox-profiles?redirectslug=profile-manager-create-and-remove-firefox-profiles&redirectlocale=en-US

You could have multiple shortcuts that open Firefox with different profiles loaded.

Google are evil (or as close to it as a soulless corporation run by greedy people without morals can be).

markbike528CBX

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #447 on: December 16, 2023, 11:52:59 PM »
Yeah, I sacrifice myself to Chrome for the rest of my family. One child uses Firefox and the other uses Safari. This prevents all of us from having to login and logout of gmail all of the time on the shared computer. This paragraph brought to you by my frugality muscles.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profile-manager-create-remove-switch-firefox-profiles?redirectslug=profile-manager-create-and-remove-firefox-profiles&redirectlocale=en-US

You could have multiple shortcuts that open Firefox with different profiles loaded.

Google are evil (or as close to it as a soulless corporation run by greedy people without morals can be).
From my favorite webcomic (surprisingly deep sometimes, as well as being funny)
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2004-09-23
Transcript
Captain Tagon: What's on your mind, Rev?
Reverend Theo: I'm worried.
Reverend Theo: It's our employer. . . Petey, the A.I. who spans a fleet of warships. . . The entity bent on dominating an entire star system.
Reverend Theo: Captain, we're not working for a person. We're working for a giant, soulless, all-consuming thing.
Captain Tagon: How's that any different from working for a corporation or a Government? I mean, besides the fact that the pay is better?
Reverend Theo: I'm never going to get these people into Heaven, Lord.

You could probably put any number of substitutes in for the character of Petey

Dicey

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #448 on: December 18, 2023, 09:10:33 AM »
Damn, I learn so much on this forum! Thanks, all.

Just Joe

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Re: Please help me help my parents
« Reply #449 on: December 19, 2023, 07:18:59 AM »
Yeah, I sacrifice myself to Chrome for the rest of my family. One child uses Firefox and the other uses Safari. This prevents all of us from having to login and logout of gmail all of the time on the shared computer. This paragraph brought to you by my frugality muscles.

I believe if you switch to Chromium you dodge Google's privacy issues. Maybe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)

I prefer Vivaldi for personal stuff and Firefox for work stuff.