Author Topic: Playing with FIRE documentary  (Read 45305 times)

jim555

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #150 on: December 08, 2019, 08:26:28 PM »
Did they fund that Hawaii vacation with movie funds they raised?  For people who are supposed to be in accumulation blowing dough like that is absurd.

mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #151 on: December 08, 2019, 09:31:38 PM »
Answer this: if your target audience doesn't spend a lot of money, how do you sell to them?

I kind of wonder this about the FIRE ecosystem in general. How does a movement that’s ostensibly anti consumerist generate hundreds of thousands, maybe millions in affiliate marketing sales?

I am extremely impressed with your ability to see the good in the film. You’re right, maybe some people like Scott and Taylor will see it and have their lives changed for the better.

My relentlessly cynical brain has thoughts I can’t let go of though. I think the director and producers (including Scott) cleverly identified a subculture that has lots of people with lots of disposable income generating lots of affiliate sales and used this film as entree into that subculture.

In a broader, more societal sense, it’s hard for me not to see this film as reinforcing the cult of Protestant work ethic by using the outstanding results of rich young people who buckle down and make the right choices.

Sometimes, I wish I could turn my brain off. But in totality, it’s served me very well in my 30 years, so better with the bitter I suppose.

undercover

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #152 on: December 09, 2019, 12:18:46 AM »
Because the hype around FIRE will fade, and so too will this forgettable documentary, because it chose not to pivot, to lean into its few honest moments and transform itself into a much more interesting *and timeless* story.

Just my not-so-humble opinion. Also not a popular MMM viewpoint, I know.

*shrug*

Interesting. I think society is just getting started with “FIRE”. I see it pop up more and more often now. In general, retirement is something that will be forced upon nearly everyone due to automation. If technology keeps progressing, eventually there will be no jobs and therefore you will be born FIRE. Sure, FIRE as it is exists now will be an antiquated way of looking at it, but we’re really just getting started.

This community is like a weird self-selecting subculture that has emerged because people started recognizing it was possible because it wasn’t even possible not that long ago. Society and technology still depends on people to spend and advance in order for it to be able to become mainstream though, so that’s why I am in total agreement that there are many people who straight up shouldn’t FIRE and won’t because they are fine and enjoy their lives of working and spending. Nothing wrong with that either, IMO. And then for a lot of people, FIRE is just another checkmark on the list of an over-achiever’s goals and then they will move onto something else. You don’t need 25x yearly expenses in the bank to feel financially secure, you can feel the same on many multiples less than that.

undercover

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #153 on: December 09, 2019, 12:34:50 AM »
Answer this: if your target audience doesn't spend a lot of money, how do you sell to them?

I kind of wonder this about the FIRE ecosystem in general. How does a movement that’s ostensibly anti consumerist generate hundreds of thousands, maybe millions in affiliate marketing sales?

I am extremely impressed with your ability to see the good in the film. You’re right, maybe some people like Scott and Taylor will see it and have their lives changed for the better.

My relentlessly cynical brain has thoughts I can’t let go of though. I think the director and producers (including Scott) cleverly identified a subculture that has lots of people with lots of disposable income generating lots of affiliate sales and used this film as entree into that subculture.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with monetizing the amount of time you spend curating valuable information. In general I haven’t seen any marketing that promotes consumerism. Credit cards are the most profitable for blogs (other than ads in general) but readers presumably know how to use them properly. Ads are already all over the internet though so if you’re not synthesizing the information being presented and/or you don’t already have ad-blocker then that’s mostly on the reader. In the case of this site, all of MMM’s affiliate links are neatly organized on their own page pretty much isolated from the blog but they’re also useful tools someone looking to save or make money might be interested in anyway.

If anything though, in the case of the film, asking a specific/set amount for it is a more “pure” transaction than maybe accepting product placement deals.

I can’t say whether the doc itself is valuable or not though because I know I have absolutely nothing to gain by watching it, but I think they are probably filling a market need that didn’t exist before. People are consuming more video than blogs these days, mostly YouTube, so I respect the fact that they at least tried to make something more “official” and well-produced in order to reach more people who aren’t really willing to read 100 blog posts even if the idea is intriguing. It’s really difficult for people here to judge it as if they’re someone who is looking at it with fresh eyes on the subject matter.

I did watch the first five minutes and I’m not sure if it was the best way to introduce the film, but it also wasn’t bad. I liked how they had MadFientist immediately talk about how “you might like what you’re doing now but you will be a different person in ten years and even if you don’t care about retiring early, you need to plan for contingencies”. It gives people a reason to think about saving even if they don’t care about why exactly they’re saving.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:55:32 AM by undercover »

Travis

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #154 on: December 09, 2019, 05:01:08 AM »


Also interesting that @arebelspy was in the movie, he is a celebrity now.

I watched the movie months ago with my local Choose FI group at the time, one of whom was in that scene with him.  I immediately saw ARS in the circle and pointed him out. Nobody else in the room knew what/who I was talking about.  I couldn't believe that nobody else in my ChooseFI group had been on these forums.

I'm always suprised at the people in the ChooseFI groups haven't even heard of or listened to the ChooseFI podcast, never mind know anything about MMM.

I used to participate in the main Facebook group daily until I had enough of the noob posts of "how do I get rich?" from posters who clearly hadn't listened to a single podcast. There's a difference between answering the same beginner questions over and over, and beginners who completely miss the point.  It's on this point I somewhat agree with and worry about the "fad" of what we're doing. ChooseFI blew up over the last year or two in readership/membership, but I wouldn't go as far to say to say they're all believers or followers.  This movie has been one of their claims to fame for the last year that they won't stop talking about, but as we've discussed here it may not be a very good representation of FIRE if folks draw the wrong conclusions.

Metalcat

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #155 on: December 09, 2019, 05:41:03 AM »
I think the hyper focus on retiring as young as possible may fade, but actual core values of being more financially literate, and being less financially wasteful are here to stay.

-Not depending on a secure career to last well into senior years.
-Not leveraging yourself up to your eyeballs with a full and dangerous dependence on cash flow.
-Realizing that a lot of people who display "wealth" are actually in debt.
-The rising inequality in wealth distribution.
-Mininalism.
-Caring about the environment.
-Being concerned about things like the viability of Social Security.
-Being concerned about things like long term healthcare.
-Etc, etc

These aren't trends, these are solid forces of social change and it's not just the FI community. FI community is just a small enclave of a bigger, massive trend, which is the steady rejection of the "American Dream", consumerist ethos where more is more and bigger is better.

This community didn't start anything. It's a response to something much, much bigger.

chasesfish

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #156 on: December 09, 2019, 05:42:18 AM »
I had the pleasure of meeting Taylor and Scott at FinCon this year and agree with a lot of what @arebelspy said.

- I was thrilled to see all of the FIRE celebrities adding to the film.  I think there are hours and hours of additional interview footage I *hope* they release on Youtube and make a little money.

- This ultimately reinforced the fact that personal finance is personal.  Everyone must find what is right for them.  Personally I would have whacked the luxury car and started side hustling instead of moving away from the community I lived in.  However, that is what *I* would do.  What they chose to do is their choice.   The pursuit of happiness...its been the American way since 1776

slappy

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #157 on: December 09, 2019, 07:26:33 AM »
Did they fund that Hawaii vacation with movie funds they raised?  For people who are supposed to be in accumulation blowing dough like that is absurd.

No that was some sort of house sitting gig I think. I don't remember the specifics, but it wasn't really a vacation.

slow hand slow plan

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #158 on: December 09, 2019, 11:10:12 AM »
C for effort i guess ...

Metalcat

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #159 on: December 09, 2019, 12:19:29 PM »
I'm watching it right now, about halfway through, and it's certainly an...unusual version of a FIRE journey.

Not a lot of people who discover FIRE jump to quitting their jobs and moving in with their parents. I mean, I get that they did that to jumpstart their savings for buying a house, but it's practically the opposite approach of typical FIRE folks who start with cutting the low hanging fruit, not giving up an income.

Also, one partner being the driving force, while being the one to quit their job, also being the one whose parents they move in with, well, that seems a bit extreme. It certainly seems like a lot to push a spouse into all at once, especially when she's not even okay with the idea of driving an economy car.

It's just all so much at once, and none of it representative of typical FIRE community behaviour, which is why it seems so haphazard.

It strikes me far more as though he discovered FIRE, thought "holy shit, that's a GREAT subject for a movie!" and needed to quit his job and live with his parents in order to be able to work on it.

Knowing a lot of hard working spouses of creative types, her distress and frustration make a lot more sense in that context than just in terms of making money-saving decisions.

It also adds up more that she's happy in the end, because the spouses of creatives are often a million times happier when the project is done and the craziness is settled.

I mean, it's obvious that a huge part of the whole thing is that they're making a movie, which is an enormous undertaking and a significant stress and risk, and yet, that part seems to be kind of glossed over/completely obfuscated so far.

All in all, it makes the whole thing come off as kind of strange unless you mentally add the elephant-in-the-room context of "he quit his job to make a movie" every time they talk about how it's going.

At least that's my interpretation so far. I'll see how I feel at the end.

jim555

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #160 on: December 09, 2019, 12:23:54 PM »
They keep saying FIRE is such a great thing, it better be for all the anguish they are putting themselves through.  If I was going by that movie I would give FIRE a hard pass.

ixtap

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #161 on: December 09, 2019, 12:34:31 PM »
They keep saying FIRE is such a great thing, it better be for all the anguish they are putting themselves through.  If I was going by that movie I would give FIRE a hard pass.

Ha, ha! Now I am almost considering watching...

Zikoris

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #162 on: December 09, 2019, 12:44:21 PM »
They keep saying FIRE is such a great thing, it better be for all the anguish they are putting themselves through.  If I was going by that movie I would give FIRE a hard pass.

I know, right? They totally missed the point. You're supposed to kick ass and do all the fun stuff now, then after you retire just ramp it up even more. Suffering is for suckers.

mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #163 on: December 09, 2019, 12:50:44 PM »
They keep saying FIRE is such a great thing, it better be for all the anguish they are putting themselves through.  If I was going by that movie I would give FIRE a hard pass.

I know, right? They totally missed the point. You're supposed to kick ass and do all the fun stuff now, then after you retire just ramp it up even more. Suffering is for suckers.

Totally agree. The entire point of the % savings to # of years til FIRE equation is that you have almost the same standard of living in retirement as you did while working towards retirement. I can talk to til the cows come home on whether or not that's a good assumption, but it's the assumption the formula makes.

If you make your life difficult and painful just to save for retirement faster, then you're dooming yourself to a difficult and painful retirement. One for reason why their quest for financial independence as portrayed in the documentary felt very inauthentic.

mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #164 on: December 09, 2019, 12:52:40 PM »
This is something of a tangent, but I think media platforms need a word for documentaries that are first and foremost, commercial entertainment products.

It doesn't make sense that something like "Playing with Fire" or "Buy this Juicer, It'll Change Your Life" should be listed in the same section with Ken Burns and PBS Frontline.

ixtap

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #165 on: December 09, 2019, 12:56:03 PM »
This is something of a tangent, but I think media platforms need a word for documentaries that are first and foremost, commercial entertainment products.

It doesn't make sense that something like "Playing with Fire" or "Buy this Juicer, It'll Change Your Life" should be listed in the same section with Ken Burns and PBS Frontline.

+1

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #166 on: December 09, 2019, 01:03:09 PM »
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

ixtap

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #167 on: December 09, 2019, 01:07:37 PM »
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

This is our problem. Our only struggle on the journey has been convincing family that we are fine and will continue to be fine.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2019, 01:12:15 PM »



 This is why so much popular FIRE media has to make up some sort of fake sacrifice, like extreme lifestyle change or deprivation, to try to beat down the fire movement. In reality how many of us feel like we are sacrificing anything, other than the undisciplined life?

Months ago, Ric Edelman used the word "penury" when  speaking of FIRE on his Saturday show.

Edelman peddles advice about "how to manage your money for every stage of life."
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 01:24:17 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

des999

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2019, 01:26:07 PM »

I have the sneaking suspicion that the mysterious work-from-home business that Scott was setting up was the business of selling this documentary to suckers like me. xD


this was my exact thought after I paid money to watch this. 


mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2019, 01:30:50 PM »
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

I'm sure they're perfectly smart. But I don't think the documentary did them any favors on this front :)

Edited to add: I think I misunderstood.

Metalcat

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2019, 01:40:56 PM »
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

DH and I have had a pretty intensely dramatic FI adventure along the way with huge challenges and major lifestyle changes, but not once have we felt deprived or had an ounce of conflict about taking this path.

I'm sure there are plenty of compelling stories out there with tons of struggles that don't amount to angst over not driving luxury cars.

BTDretire

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2019, 01:42:29 PM »
I just finished the movie, I enjoyed it, but even though there was a lot of setup about the freedom that FIRE can bring,
it just didn't show a lot of the daily how to, that we get from the group here. I was interested in Taylor's true angst over the change she made. In the end, the journey is years, so we never got to see the light at the end of the tunnel, no fruition, no Rocky moment, even though we saw many already retired.

  Truth is, when we hit FI, it was not much of a Rocky moment, one day your $1,000 from FI and the next day you are FI, but the $1,000 really didn't make any difference, it was the journey.

 To me, anything that can motivate people to save is good. Even if they only save $100,000 and then quit saving, having $100,000 in the bank to most people would be life changing.

 Another funny thing, 1/2 the population would see you with $1,000,000 and say you are rich, and having earned and saved $1,000,000, you think huh, I can spend $40,000 a year, you're spending $60,000, and you think I'm rich.
I realize at $40,000 you don't need to work, so you do have that. :-)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 01:44:13 PM by BTDretire »

slappy

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2019, 02:14:57 PM »


It strikes me far more as though he discovered FIRE, thought "holy shit, that's a GREAT subject for a movie!" and needed to quit his job and live with his parents in order to be able to work on it.



I thought I've heard him say that this is pretty much exactly what happened. He started the movie pretty quickly after he heard about the FIRE movement, from what I understand.



honeybbq

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2019, 03:41:13 PM »
I think the hyper focus on retiring as young as possible may fade, but actual core values of being more financially literate, and being less financially wasteful are here to stay.

-Not depending on a secure career to last well into senior years.
-Not leveraging yourself up to your eyeballs with a full and dangerous dependence on cash flow.
-Realizing that a lot of people who display "wealth" are actually in debt.
-The rising inequality in wealth distribution.
-Mininalism.
-Caring about the environment.
-Being concerned about things like the viability of Social Security.
-Being concerned about things like long term healthcare.
-Etc, etc

These aren't trends, these are solid forces of social change and it's not just the FI community. FI community is just a small enclave of a bigger, massive trend, which is the steady rejection of the "American Dream", consumerist ethos where more is more and bigger is better.

This community didn't start anything. It's a response to something much, much bigger.

These are basically my fiscal tenets for my life, not necessarily retiring earlier. It's nice to see them all articulated in one place.

I watched it (for free) today. I enjoyed the wife's experiences. As a mom with a career- I get that pang and desire to be with your babies but also wanting to have a career and do good things. It's challenging. I did get the impression (correctly or not so much) that the husband was just dragging his family around and it seemed random and contrived. And their little breakdown over bad weather in Kauai was particularly annoying. They lost nothing other than having to stay home and play board games for awhile, and yet they were "trapped." Ugh.

I did enjoy where they bought a 2005 (although I thought it was a 2006) Honda CRV, because that's what I drive. :D

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #175 on: December 09, 2019, 06:08:15 PM »
I just watched it through Ally and had pretty much the same reaction as most people here.  But I did read the whole thread and was struck by those of you who said you watched it with a spouse or other person who had never shown much interest in FIRE before, and that this had them talking about it for days after (or permutations thereof).  To the extent that it gives a misinterpretation and a bad image of FIRE (and again, I agree), that it gets people interested in it at all could lead them to more sources that will describe it more carefully and/or just a fuller understanding of FIRE over time.  So I'm not super bothered by the fact that this one resource doesn't do a great job of representing "the movement"...since most sources will not, on their own, do so....although maybe it does do a particularly poor job of it.  I never came to FIRE from a completely green point of view.  I was already mostly FI and frugal when I heard about the movement.  But, I do definitely still remember how my impressions of the movement broadened and developed as I started reading lots of different sources.

That said, really glad I didn't pay for it.  And I'm not sure I would recommend my non-FIRE friends and family pay for it, notwithstanding how hopeful I might be about the slippery slope it could create for them as I describe above.

undercover

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #176 on: December 09, 2019, 06:42:25 PM »
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

High income anyway...although intelligence does play a role to get to the high income.

If your income is high enough, and you’re not an extravagant spender, it really doesn’t matter what you do, you’re gonna (more than likely) arrive at FI(RE) automatically.

So is FIRE really only for high income people? To an extent, I’d say yes, but lower income peeps would definitely benefit way more from the principles. That’s a tough sell though when it requires far more sacrifice. If you were already working hard and sacrificing, you’d have a high income most likely. That’s why I think FIRE is a pretty self-selecting group. People already looking to do better with their money end up finding resources like this, not the other way around. So, to that end, the “documentary” (I agree it’s not really) is probably not going to influence anyone’s mind that wasn’t already curious. You really need to make the money first IMO before you worry about what to do with it.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:45:30 PM by undercover »

Telecaster

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #177 on: December 09, 2019, 09:31:01 PM »
They keep saying FIRE is such a great thing, it better be for all the anguish they are putting themselves through.  If I was going by that movie I would give FIRE a hard pass.

Ha! 

The problem with "Playing with FIRE" is the film makers decided there needed to be  tension otherwise it wouldn't be interesting.  Tension can make things interesting (that's why "House Hunters" exists) but documentary story telling can be interesting too.  The basic math behind FIRE is dry as dust.  But the philosophy is interesting and not common in today's society.  That's the part they should have drilled down on.  They touched a little bit on it in the film, like the Mad Fientist saying giving up your BMW will give you five years of your life and MMM saying you have no choice but to do good.   So who are these people are able to check out of the rat race at age 30?  What makes them tick?  That's the real story here.  I thought @arebelspy 's story would have been much more interesting than Taylor lamenting the loss of her BMW.  I mean, the choice is you can spend all day with your kids for the rest of your life, or you can have a BMW.   Which is the richer life?  That's worth a deep dive, IMO.  I thought the film makers really ducted the interesting parts, and instead went for the "tension."

 

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #178 on: December 09, 2019, 09:39:04 PM »
They keep saying FIRE is such a great thing, it better be for all the anguish they are putting themselves through.  If I was going by that movie I would give FIRE a hard pass.

I know, right? They totally missed the point. You're supposed to kick ass and do all the fun stuff now, then after you retire just ramp it up even more. Suffering is for suckers.

Totally agree. The entire point of the % savings to # of years til FIRE equation is that you have almost the same standard of living in retirement as you did while working towards retirement. I can talk to til the cows come home on whether or not that's a good assumption, but it's the assumption the formula makes.

If you make your life difficult and painful just to save for retirement faster, then you're dooming yourself to a difficult and painful retirement. One for reason why their quest for financial independence as portrayed in the documentary felt very inauthentic.

Well said.

And that's one of the main (ignorant) criticisms of FIRE.

"I don't want to live miserably poor now so I can live miserable and poor forever!"

...totally missing the point.

But yes, you should not "deprive" yourself on your FIRE journey. Build a sustainable life you're happy with.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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fattest_foot

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #179 on: December 09, 2019, 09:40:41 PM »
Wife and I just finished watching, and it's not nearly as bad as I had expected. I think part of that was that we were able to laugh at some of the absurdity of Scott and Taylor's situation (self inflicted situation).

Overall, I thought the message was decent. And I'll also throw in my support that @arebelspy 's portion was a highlight, mostly because it's probably the only time where people who aren't making astronomical incomes give a testimonial (it also helps that I've followed his story from pre-retirement).

I wish they'd have spent a little more time with some of the "guru's" like JL Collins and MMM, but overall I think it's probably "enough" to get people interested.

arebelspy

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #180 on: December 09, 2019, 09:44:38 PM »

The problem with "Playing with FIRE" is the film makers decided there needed to be  tension otherwise it wouldn't be interesting.  Tension can make things interesting (that's why "House Hunters" exists)

Yep.

This is very true:
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

A movie about the typically FIREee who saves for a decade and quits makes for an interesting cocktail story, if it's brand new to you, but a 2 hour movie? They need the tension.

Unfortunately it does make pursing FIRE look miserable.

The great part though, is that it can be super fun and not miserable at all to work towards FIRE! We sure enjoyed it, and I sometimes miss the challenge, and the spreadsheets.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #181 on: December 09, 2019, 11:07:41 PM »
I guess making a movie about two intelligent people who shack up, consciously decide to take control of their finances, optimise their taxes and bills, cut out extravagant spending and steadily increase income while doing nothing particularly notable would not be a good seller.

DH and I have had a pretty intensely dramatic FI adventure along the way with huge challenges and major lifestyle changes, but not once have we felt deprived or had an ounce of conflict about taking this path.

I'm sure there are plenty of compelling stories out there with tons of struggles that don't amount to angst over not driving luxury cars.

I've got a dramatic story too. Thankfully, nobody's been filming that drama, so I have plausible deniability.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #182 on: December 09, 2019, 11:20:35 PM »
If I made a FIRE movie about my life, it would be me graduating from college and moving back home with my parents while maxing out my 401k and stashing while I figure out my next move.  I also convince my GF to contribute as much as she can.  I work hard at the job while daydreaming about freedom, catch a few good breaks (some commuter assignments that I can pocket travel costs, work overtime, etc.), and eventually move out to an apartment with a roommate.  Get excited about a guy we know who bought a duplex and pays the note using the other's rent... 

Probably not Hollywood material.  Sure, there was a dotcom bubble in there which was a heady up and down to the networth, and I had an overseas assignment to the Philippines which was cool.  I think I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Filipinos - they are really great people that are treated really poorly many places.  But GF and I got hitched, continued to work hard and stash until kids, then she could be a SAHP with ER already locked in for me.  We would be lean-FI, but I was willing to work and switched jobs and, although this is where the movie would fade out with us being successful FIRE, that is actually when the story got much more interesting...

So yeah, most of the 'work' toward FI is not glamorous, but the stuff at ER and the FI beyond is way more interesting.  Not sure how you turn that in to an 'aspirational FIRE' movie.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 11:24:43 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #183 on: December 10, 2019, 05:15:25 AM »
snip...

The great part though, is that it can be super fun and not miserable at all to work towards FIRE! We sure enjoyed it, and I sometimes miss the challenge, and the spreadsheets.

They will have to pry my spreadsheets from my cold, dead hands.

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #184 on: December 10, 2019, 05:24:45 AM »
K, just finished, here are some thoughts:

-It was better than I expected based on the responses here. My expectations were extremely low, so that helped.

-I think more time should have been spent on what their lifestyle looks like now that they're settled. Their struggles were largely due to massive life upheaval, especially for Taylor.

She had so much angst about all the sacrifices and it feeling meaningless when she still wasn't getting to spend more time with her daughter, but now she's still working full time, I presume, so it's not like she's happy now because she reached FI, she's happy because she's living a good life on the way to FI.

The misery wasn't so much from the reduced spending, but from the total chaos they voluntarily threw themselves into.

-It would have been nice to compare their current lifestyle to their past lifestyle and express how it's really the same quality of life, if not better, at a much lower cost, and they really didn't lose anything by cutting back.

-As critical I have been of them telling a really unorthodox version of pursuing FIRE, I do think there's A LOT of value in seeing a case where people are willing to just pick up and move from an HCOL location. Feeling geographically pinned down is a very real thing, so the more I watched, the more I actually liked that that kind of move was made.

-I STILL think they should have openly talked about making the movie itself and why they chose to lose an entire income.

Them not being able to afford their "dream home" is a lot more profound a relationship issue when one partner has given up an income to work on a passion project that may never make any money. This would have fit in really well in his reflection in the woods scene.

I just can't wrap my head around this not being a core part of their conversations along the way and a lot of the emotional weight on Taylor, which I think does her a real disservice, IMO.

In my marriage, I'm the one who has given up 80-90% of my income and I may choose to give it all up and pursue a passion project instead that may or may not end up profitable. We're not FIREd yet, so I can very much relate. The key difference is my spouse has been pushing me to do this for years.

Whenever we talk about our future it's always about two realities, one where I don't make much money and one where I make substantial amounts. So the phrase "depending on what happens with my income" precedes almost every thought about our future, and the two outcomes are wildly different.

How this part is just completely left out just baffles me. Like, how do they not even address it? I get keeping the filmmaking out of a film, but in this case it leaves a giant, awkward, screaming void in the discourse.

Dropping an entire income is a HUGE deal for FIRE folks. DH only convinced me to do it because he's specifically NOT aiming for early retirement and wants his full pension.

If he was dying to retire, there's no way I would voluntarily take on projects that might not break even.

-Beyond driving a very nice Honda SUV, buying a nice house is a lower cost area backing onto a noisy street, and making breakfast burritos, there was actually very very little about cutting expenses.

-To that point, there were also virtually no numbers beyond previous food spending, savings percentages and costs of houses. I respect this choice to not distract with numbers, but I really wanted to understand if he had income contributing to that final savings rate number.

-Wow, Pete is way more telegenic than he is photogenic, but the content shown for him were odd choices, imo, with a whole focus on the "cult" thing, but little explanation.

-Actually, it was a weird stylistic choice to not give any context to most of the "experts" other than their retirement ages. I don't read any of those blogs, so I only know or know of these people vaguely, so even I was like "wait, what's this person's story?", paused, and googled them to refresh my memory as to what their particular brand is.

-JL Collins is one of the most soothing people, I could listen to him talk about index funds all day and just feel reassured about life

-@arebelspy is definitely a highlight, not just because of being a really relatable story, but because he emanates that calm confidence of someone living really autonomously. It's that intangible and difficult to describe thing that people working towards FIRE are hoping for.

-Overall, better than I expected.

It's more a story of dealing with total life upheaval, but there's some decent personal reflection about spending in the process. I think Gen Pop would actually relate to a lot of it pretty well.
I think FIRE community people will mostly be left confused because he purposefully avoids talking about making the film or what his ambitions are, which gives us virtually no context to frame his decisions.
I think he made his wife a sacrificial lamb for the sake of drama...I'm curious how intentional that was.

Travis

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #185 on: December 10, 2019, 05:58:11 AM »
Quote
-JL Collins is one of the most soothing people, I could listen to him talk about index funds all day and just feel reassured about life

He recorded a video a few months ago when the market was having one of its fits in which he's walking you through a meditation session. I'm dead fucking serious.

The TED talk-like thing that MMM did at the end of the movie is a great video to watch in its entirety. It gives a great breakdown of how most of us feel about FIRE and why he does what he does.  IMHO it would have been far more meaningful to the movie audience than the actual movie.

Metalcat

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #186 on: December 10, 2019, 06:02:21 AM »
Quote
-JL Collins is one of the most soothing people, I could listen to him talk about index funds all day and just feel reassured about life

He recorded a video a few months ago when the market was having one of its fits in which he's walking you through a meditation session. I'm dead fucking serious.

The TED talk-like thing that MMM did at the end of the movie is a great video to watch in its entirety. It gives a great breakdown of how most of us feel about FIRE and why he does what he does.  IMHO it would have been far more meaningful to the movie audience than the actual movie.

Amazing.

Travis

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #187 on: December 10, 2019, 06:07:16 AM »
Quote
-JL Collins is one of the most soothing people, I could listen to him talk about index funds all day and just feel reassured about life

He recorded a video a few months ago when the market was having one of its fits in which he's walking you through a meditation session. I'm dead fucking serious.

The TED talk-like thing that MMM did at the end of the movie is a great video to watch in its entirety. It gives a great breakdown of how most of us feel about FIRE and why he does what he does.  IMHO it would have been far more meaningful to the movie audience than the actual movie.

Amazing.

For your listening pleasure.

https://youtu.be/OOGU94eL07E

Metalcat

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #188 on: December 10, 2019, 06:19:58 AM »
Quote
-JL Collins is one of the most soothing people, I could listen to him talk about index funds all day and just feel reassured about life

He recorded a video a few months ago when the market was having one of its fits in which he's walking you through a meditation session. I'm dead fucking serious.

The TED talk-like thing that MMM did at the end of the movie is a great video to watch in its entirety. It gives a great breakdown of how most of us feel about FIRE and why he does what he does.  IMHO it would have been far more meaningful to the movie audience than the actual movie.

Amazing.

For your listening pleasure.

https://youtu.be/OOGU94eL07E

Absolutely brilliant.

neo von retorch

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #189 on: December 10, 2019, 06:49:41 AM »
I think what @fattest_foot and @Malkynn said sums up my feelings well. We enjoyed it more than I expected.

As others have said, her story was the highlight, and she was relatable. My spouse turned and asked what our savings rate was when it came up initially (JD Roth) and she was nodding along to a lot of the commentary on what it feels like to break out of the cattle lanes of mainstream life and judgement and start making your own choices.

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #190 on: December 10, 2019, 07:18:31 AM »
This is something of a tangent, but I think media platforms need a word for documentaries that are first and foremost, commercial entertainment products.

It doesn't make sense that something like "Playing with Fire" or "Buy this Juicer, It'll Change Your Life" should be listed in the same section with Ken Burns and PBS Frontline.

Documercial?

neo von retorch

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #191 on: December 10, 2019, 07:25:32 AM »
Also the first half hour being about how they live with their parents and don't pay rent was pretty distracting. Every time the topic came up we looked at each other and rolled our eyes. Someone should really tell them:

You don't have to pay for transportation if someone else pays for it!
You don't have to pay for food if someone else pays for it!
You don't have to pay for vacations if someone else pays for it!

fattest_foot

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #192 on: December 10, 2019, 07:31:49 AM »
Also the first half hour being about how they live with their parents and don't pay rent was pretty distracting. Every time the topic came up we looked at each other and rolled our eyes. Someone should really tell them:

You don't have to pay for transportation if someone else pays for it!
You don't have to pay for food if someone else pays for it!
You don't have to pay for vacations if someone else pays for it!

I mean, my major criticism (and several people have discussed it already) is just that they went about it in such a crazy, anti-FIRE movement way. Instead of cutting down to one car (or one luxury car and one beater), or downsizing their house, or cutting their $3000 a month food budget, they...decided to quit one of their jobs and move all over the country?

I think one (maybe several?) of the experts they interviewed even said, "This isn't about depriving yourself." But that's the route they went.

That's the part that annoys me. We were able to laugh at the absurdity of it, but it really gives a false narrative about what the whole thing is about. It's the same reason clickbait articles about FIRE piss me off. They make it sound like you have to be a miser to pursue FI.

arebelspy

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #193 on: December 10, 2019, 07:55:51 AM »
Thanks everyone for the kind words about my small apearance.

I don't remember what I said, but I'm glad I didn't put my foot too far in my mouth. :)

Quote
The TED talk-like thing that MMM did at the end of the movie is a great video to watch in its entirety. It gives a great breakdown of how most of us feel about FIRE and why he does what he does.  IMHO it would have been far more meaningful to the movie audience than the actual movie.

It definitely would have been more practical and useful.

It was a talk at the World Domination Summit.

I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #194 on: December 10, 2019, 08:46:31 AM »
This is something of a tangent, but I think media platforms need a word for documentaries that are first and foremost, commercial entertainment products.

It doesn't make sense that something like "Playing with Fire" or "Buy this Juicer, It'll Change Your Life" should be listed in the same section with Ken Burns and PBS Frontline.

Documercial?

I can dig it!

mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #195 on: December 10, 2019, 09:01:05 AM »
I second (third, fourth?) that a "typical" FIRE story wouldn't make for a compelling documentary. Nobody wants to hear about how I got a good job, bought a used car, got a good deal on my house, and take cool vacations with the help of credit card churning.

arebelspy

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #196 on: December 10, 2019, 09:19:04 AM »
I second (third, fourth?) that a "typical" FIRE story wouldn't make for a compelling documentary. Nobody wants to hear about how I got a good job, bought a used car, got a good deal on my house, and take cool vacations with the help of credit card churning.
I'm intrigued, tell me more.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Metalcat

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #197 on: December 10, 2019, 09:35:33 AM »
I second (third, fourth?) that a "typical" FIRE story wouldn't make for a compelling documentary. Nobody wants to hear about how I got a good job, bought a used car, got a good deal on my house, and take cool vacations with the help of credit card churning.

I don't agree.
If there's an audience for the blogs, forums, podcasts, and books, then there's a market for a movie/tv show.
There have already been multiple tv shows about people tackling debt. You could absolutely do a dpocumentary/docuseries about people who reject the level of lifestyle they could afford in favour of financial independence. How they socialize, their life hacks, what their friends and family think, what the hell they do with their time once retired, etc, etc.

Documentaries/docuseries looking into the day to day life of people who live just a bit off the beaten track are often hugely popular.

I just watched a series called "Couples Therapy", it's literally just watching normal people in couples therapy, and it's fucking transfixing.

mathlete

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #198 on: December 10, 2019, 09:43:21 AM »
I second (third, fourth?) that a "typical" FIRE story wouldn't make for a compelling documentary. Nobody wants to hear about how I got a good job, bought a used car, got a good deal on my house, and take cool vacations with the help of credit card churning.
I'm intrigued, tell me more.

ROFL! I almost put in a caveat that YOU GUYS might be interested. Just not the broad, documentary viewing audience.

DadJokes

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Re: Playing with FIRE documentary
« Reply #199 on: December 10, 2019, 09:49:27 AM »
I second (third, fourth?) that a "typical" FIRE story wouldn't make for a compelling documentary. Nobody wants to hear about how I got a good job, bought a used car, got a good deal on my house, and take cool vacations with the help of credit card churning.

I don't agree.
If there's an audience for the blogs, forums, podcasts, and books, then there's a market for a movie/tv show.
There have already been multiple tv shows about people tackling debt. You could absolutely do a dpocumentary/docuseries about people who reject the level of lifestyle they could afford in favour of financial independence. How they socialize, their life hacks, what their friends and family think, what the hell they do with their time once retired, etc, etc.

Documentaries/docuseries looking into the day to day life of people who live just a bit off the beaten track are often hugely popular.

I just watched a series called "Couples Therapy", it's literally just watching normal people in couples therapy, and it's fucking transfixing.

I would absolutely watch a series that followed couples who were living the "unusual" FI lifestyle. There are many flavors of FI living, and I think there is a lot to explore there. It can cover people who are already FIRE'd, those late in the process, and those who are new to the concept and starting out.

I think non-FI people would be interested as well, because it can present a different side of FIRE than what they hear from the mainstream media. Instead of seeing it as deprivation, they can see that people living a FIRE lifestyle find happiness and fulfillment in many different ways.