Author Topic: Philosophy of frugality fatigue  (Read 5469 times)

PeteD01

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Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« on: February 14, 2014, 08:47:54 AM »
Epicureanism vs Stoicism

In a nutshell, the epicurean path of human happiness (eudaimonia) is one of maximizing pleasure and avoidance of pain.
Contrary to a common misconception, Epicureanism does not aim for a life of luxury when fully developed but to an ascetic lifestyle shared with friends. Epicureanism denies the social aspect of human existence and in its last consequence the adherents withdraw from public life to live out their days in the garden of Epicurus sharing water, bread and figs with their similar minded friends.
So Epicureanism taken to its logical conclusion is a life of voluntary frugality and friendship apart from society.
Epicureanism as a philosophy of life is alive and well in terms of seeing human happiness as maximization of pleasure and minimization of pain. It is at the heart of consumerist culture. Another permutation is deprivation in the present for the purpose of even greater pleasure in the future.
What has been forgotten is the emphasis on poverty and frugality which, for the Epicureans, is a way of dealing with the inevitable fears and difficulties associated with a life of wealth and luxury.
These difficulties are primarily the disturbances of equanimity emanating from the possibility of loss of material wealth and the problem of true friendship among wealthy subscribers to the philosophy. The problem with friendship and wealth appears to be mainly that it is difficult to find friends of exactly equal wealth and therefore opportunity for pleasure.
The other philosophical reason for frugality is the hedonic treadmill, which the Epicureans were aware of.

There are modern attempts to recreate epicurean gardens without the requirement for poverty. Recently, I had the opportunity to see some settlements in Vero Beach, Florida. There you have gated communities segregated by levels of wealth measured by house prices.

Stoicism also has an association with frugality - but for entirely different reasons. For a Stoic, human happiness and flourishing cannot be reduced to maximization of pleasure and minimization of pain simply for the reason that humans are rational and social creatures.
In the Stoic view, a comfort seeking animal following its desires and fears is acting according to its nature and can rightly be called flourishing even if it never achieves full comfort and peace - this is true for most wild animals.
On the other hand, a human, due to the rational faculty, cannot help but realizing that following desires and acting upon fear will never lead to full comfort and peace. The glaring failures of epicurean experimentation serve as a constant reminder.
Now what about the comfort seeking animal? Well, the comfort seeking animal is already flourishing in the act of following its instincts/desires/fears - not in achieving the goals implied in its actions.
For the stoic, the question arises if the rational faculty should be used in following desires and passions ever more effectively even though that same rational faculty asserts that desires cannot ever be ultimately satisfied.
Luckily, human flourishing is not an endpoint but a process and one cannot deny that exercising the rational faculty in the pursuit of pleasure is acting in accord with human nature as a rational creature.
The one question remaining is: What is the ruling faculty? Is it desires or is it the rational faculty?
The stoic answer is that it is the rational faculty and the reasoning is that humans are social creatures at a fundamental level and that human society as it exists is not thinkable without language and rational communication.
For the stoic, it follows rather effortlessly from this point that acting according to human nature means the proper exercise of the rational faculty in the social context with desires and fears playing a decidedly secondary role.

The stoic view of wealth is more complicated than the epicurean.
For an epicurean wealth is something rather to be avoided because of the fear of losing it, among other things.
The stoic does not care about fear but sees wealth as a possible hindrance as conveniences may creep into one's life without one noticing the corrupting effect on the ruling faculty. Frugality becomes the antidote for this character softening effect.
On the other hand, wealth allows the stoic to use the rational faculty in the social context ever more effectively. The stoic therefore sees wealth as a challenge but does not shrink from it.
In the overall assessment, wealth is indifferent to human flourishing in the stoic sense but it is a preferred indifferent.
Preferred indifferents are things not under our control, like all indifferents, but preferred because of the increased freedom to act they convey. Health is another preferred indifferent in the stoic universe.

The final analysis:

Epicurean frugality is a strategy for maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain - in the present or deferred into the future

Stoic frugality is the antidote for the character softening effects of wealth which is otherwise used to fulfill one's responsibilities of not becoming a burden to others and to provide to others in need. It is all about the present.

Typical outcomes of epicurean life philosophy can be seen in the sorry examples of incompetent heirs and many celebrities as well as in adherents of various religious cults.

Many of the most admirable and many of the most powerful people who have ever lived on the planet have been stoics at heart.
 

Thoughts?

Peter

jordanread

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 11:47:19 AM »
I started reading the Guide to a Good life this week. The one thing that I would mention is that I don't think the stoic view of wealth is that complicated, nor is it really truly a big deal. I think it's more of a side effect of understanding value.

From what I've been learning, I don't think that stoicism views wealth as a hindrance, just due to being proactive. Frugality is more of a side effect of being joyful.
When you delay or reverse Hedonic Adaptation, you are made aware of the true value of something or someone. When you have too much stuff, or begin accumulating it, the stoic is able to see that the added value may not actually be there. With the voluntary discomfort, stuff is put into perspective and just isn't that desirable. At least that's my take on it.

PeteD01

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 12:33:57 PM »
I started reading the Guide to a Good life this week. The one thing that I would mention is that I don't think the stoic view of wealth is that complicated, nor is it really truly a big deal. I think it's more of a side effect of understanding value.

From what I've been learning, I don't think that stoicism views wealth as a hindrance, just due to being proactive. Frugality is more of a side effect of being joyful.
When you delay or reverse Hedonic Adaptation, you are made aware of the true value of something or someone. When you have too much stuff, or begin accumulating it, the stoic is able to see that the added value may not actually be there. With the voluntary discomfort, stuff is put into perspective and just isn't that desirable. At least that's my take on it.

I agree. The stoic view on wealth is not complicated once one has taken the time to think it through.

The book you are reading (A guide to the good life: The ancient art of stoic joy. William B Irvine) is a good read but there is one problem: While the stoic life is certainly a life not lacking in joy, joy is merely incidental to living live according to one's nature.
Irvine has a read on stoicism which I have not seen elsewhere - most certainly not in any primary texts.

What seems to be a subtle difference in opinion is actually much more profound: Stoic contemplation of the worst case scenario (all is lost) is supposed to confront the meditator with the emotions and underlying thoughts provoked by the visualisation, thereby preparing the meditator for the eventuality.

This is not just a trick to manipulate the force of the emotions as, in the stoic view, emotions or thoughts elicited via visualization or by an actual event are not materially different. They are simply views we are free to examine and agree with or not any time we wish.
 
The deep appreciation felt after opening one's eyes again (reversal of hedonic adaptation) is a welcome manifestation of stoic joy - but not more than a side effect and not what the exercise is really about. For a stoic everything is already lost in a way - expressed differently: on loan for a short while and to be given back on short notice.

There is another recent book, Stoicism and the Art of Happiness: A Teach Yourself Guide by Don Robertson, dealing with some of Irvine's interpretations. It just came out and it will be the book I am going to recommend going forward.

As far as wealth being a hindrance, it was Seneca, one of the wealthiest people of his time, who wrote extensively about the insidious effects of wealth on the stoic philosopher.

Enjoy your studies!
Peter




steveo

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 12:50:03 PM »
To me there are a lot of similarities between Stoicism and Epicureanism however to me the key difference is that Epicureanism stresses friendships as being important and places a very low value in politics and doing a social good. I don't believe that Stoicism values friendships and it does value doing the right thing socially.

Epicurists to me aim to retreat from society whereas Stoics aim to work for societies benefit although they don't believe that society will respect that decision.

I really like both philosophies however I am more inclined to retreat from society and retire when I can rather than keep working as per to me more of a stoic interpretation of how to live a good life.

PeteD01

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 01:18:11 PM »
To me there are a lot of similarities between Stoicism and Epicureanism however to me the key difference is that Epicureanism stresses friendships as being important and places a very low value in politics and doing a social good. I don't believe that Stoicism values friendships and it does value doing the right thing socially.

The high value placed on friendship is a common feature of Epicureanism and Stoicism.

Epicurists to me aim to retreat from society whereas Stoics aim to work for societies benefit although they don't believe that society will respect that decision.

Here you are pointing at a fundamental difference between epicureans and stoics. For stoics, a human is not even conceivable as an entity separate from the community. The stoics even quipped that it was interesting that Epicurus kept publishing his writings even after having retreated to his garden. In essence, they were saying that Epicurus could very well try to retreat to his garden but that he could not leave society behind.

Peter

Jamesqf

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 02:40:34 PM »
In a nutshell, the epicurean path of human happiness (eudaimonia) is one of maximizing pleasure and avoidance of pain.

Still, the connection between this and 'frugal fatigue' is kind of iffy.  The logic seems to be that maximizing spending maximizes pleasure, even though spending today predictably causes future pain.  Far better to find joy in things that cost less, or endure minor discomfort now to avoid greater future pain.

As for instance, if I don't consistently do my back exercises, a minor discomfort, I will eventually throw my back out, and enjoy a few weeks of fairly serious pain.  Logically, therefore, I am being Epicurean when I do the exercises, and so avoid the opportunity to endure the later pain with Stoic fortitude :-)

PeteD01

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 07:29:42 PM »


As for instance, if I don't consistently do my back exercises, a minor discomfort, I will eventually throw my back out, and enjoy a few weeks of fairly serious pain.  Logically, therefore, I am being Epicurean when I do the exercises, and so avoid the opportunity to endure the later pain with Stoic fortitude :-)

No you are not epicurean if you do your exercise. Being epicurean or stoic is not a function of you doing your your exercise because both philosophies would result in you doing the exercise.
The difference only shows up in the view you take of the circumstance you are finding yourself in.
The epicurean view would be that it is proper to perform the exercise, incurring the discomfort it causes, to avert future pain.
The stoic view would be that fate has thrown you a challenge and through use of your rational faculty you are able to surmount it. Stoic gratefulness would focus on this while performing the exercises.

The main difference between the epicurean and the stoic view is that the epicurean view keeps you tangled up in the calculation of present and future reward/pain whereas the stoic view simply looks at present appropriateness of action.

Ultimately, it is all about the difference between your actions' intrinsic reward versus the imaginary reward consisting in satisfying desire or avoiding pain. The stoic stance is to focus on the intrinsic reward - satisfaction of desire and avoidance of pain may result but is not in our control and so is nothing to us.

Peter


PeteD01

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 11:02:34 AM »
In a nutshell, the epicurean path of human happiness (eudaimonia) is one of maximizing pleasure and avoidance of pain.

Still, the connection between this and 'frugal fatigue' is kind of iffy.  The logic seems to be that maximizing spending maximizes pleasure, even though spending today predictably causes future pain.  Far better to find joy in things that cost less, or endure minor discomfort now to avoid greater future pain.


The basic premise of Epicureanism is that maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain is the path to human happiness/flourishing/eudaimonia. The logical conclusion is to minimize needs in order to avoid future pain. Epicurus himself has stated that being free of pain and fear is indeed the goal.
Frugality thus becomes a strategy for avoiding future pain.
The problem is that pleasure and freedom of pain remain the focus of the epicurean practitioner who is trapped in a situation where she has to forgo a perceived good (pleasure), a minor pain, in order to avoid future greater pain.
This is the spiral of frugal fatigue as there is no end to the conundrum. The practitioner has to constantly evaluate how the present pain stacks up to the future pain avoided. But there is no way to evaluate this objectively as the future is unknown. The other problem is that fear needs to be managed.
Within Epicureanism there is no other recourse than to minimize needs to the extreme in order to inoculate against future material misfortune. Again, there is no end to this - frugal fatigue is virtually guaranteed.
The consequence of the insoluble practical problems posed, by believing that the satisfaction of desires to the greatest possible extent is the path to human happiness, is that the practitioner simply gives up. What is the point, after all, of a strategy, which taken to the logical extreme, leads to severe voluntary deprivation? And all that in the name of maximizing pleasure?
The failure mode of the epicurean is to break the frugality trap by seeking satisfaction in the present. That often results in substantial credit card bills.

The stoic, on the other hand, questions the viability of the proposal that satisfying desires, even properly managed, is a path to happiness at all.
This turns into an investigation into the nature of desire. Interestingly, the epicurean excesses show up in the nature of desire itself. The attempt at satisfying desires turns out to be an infinite recurse which can only be interrupted by extinguishing desire completely. This is what the epicureans found - and typically grow tired of quickly. There appears to be no middle ground as long as satisfaction of desire is a primary objective.
There is another misconception that stoics try to eliminate desires (passions). This is not true. Stoics are students of the passions.
Here is an exercise for you (I use an ice cold coca cola, you may substitute a piece of cake or a Lamborghini): you are thirsty and you go into a store. Visualize an ice cold coca cola while you walk to the cooler. Take it out and observe the condensation on the bottle. Imagine the sensation of drinking the heavenly liquid. Put the bottle back. Go to the water fountain and quench your thirst. Leave the store.
You may have to do exercises like this several times to develop the observation skills needed to see the desire growing and subsiding without ever having satisfied it in the traditional sense.
Of course, the stoic does not believe that desires can actually be satisfied in a traditional sense. Desires arise and dissipate. Desires are ephemeral and their dissipation is their satisfaction. The object of a desire is in the last consequence immaterial to its satisfaction.
The consequences of separating desires from their object as seeing them as mental events independent of their apparent object are profound: the world instantly ceases to be some sort of big department store simply there to satisfy ones desires.
Stoics also see the attempt to satisfy a desire by obtaining its object as a futile attempt at extinguishing the desire for good. This is of course not possible as another desire will take its place and so on. Stoics accept desires as part of the human condition and watch the parade with equanimity without letting it interfere with what really matters in life.

So here you have it: Stoics do not believe that one stays any chance of actually satisfying a desire with an external object and thereby getting rid of the desire for good. Desires come and go and acting upon them or not is entirely up to us.
In the stoic view, frugal fatigue does not exist as it is based upon a misconception of the nature of desire. Or, in other words, frugal fatigue is the inevitable consequence of the belief that desires beyond the immediate bodily needs of an organism can be satisfied by external objects. The stoic is convinced that the satisfaction of a desire is immanent in its nature as a transient mental event and is manifest in its dissipation. And dissipate it will - every time, and that's why the stoic life is a life of plenty.

Peter

Edited for typo
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 02:35:11 PM by PeteD01 »

MrFancypants

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 04:31:10 PM »
My strategy to avoid fatigue is to recognize the things I wish to have in my life because they make *me* (and my wife) happy.  Depriving myself of things that bring me real joy is not a good plan, even if those things are judged to be "fancy" by others here.

sheepstache

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Re: Philosophy of frugality fatigue
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 05:25:10 PM »

So here you have it: Stoics do not believe that one stays any chance of actually satisfying a desire with an external object and thereby getting rid of the desire for good. Desires come and go and acting upon them or not is entirely up to us.


Thank you, I was curious about the difference between stoicism and what I know of buddhist views on desire.

 

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