PhD after FI

[bikerdood]

This is one of my interests in FI.  The PhD would likely be in the humanities (Latin, Literature, etc).

Anyone else out there with this aim?  Any insights, realizations, thoughts?

I'm not asking if it's possible - I'm down the FI path at ~60k nw at 26 (started mustachian habits 2 years ago).  More looking for people who are considering the possibility, have done this, or rejected the path for whatever reason.

[Romag]

I am thinking about it...I have a Master's in International Affairs and could do a Ph.D with my GI Bill benefits. I would probably do History, Anthropology or African Studies.

[rocketpj]

I've thought about it at times.  After my Masters I stepped off the academia wagon when I realized I had no interest in spending my life grovelling for tenure. 

To be honest, I think that any PhD I might do now would be infinitely better and more worthwhile than what I might have produced when I was a whippersnapper.  Youth is wasted on the young.  That said, I'm not sure I'd be interested.

[Patrick A]

I've also thought it might be fun (in about 8-10 years) for me.  Right now I'm also 26, and I work in consulting as an Electrical Engineer.  I got my masters and decided not to pursue further since I've never really been interested in the academic world, but doing a PhD with 10 years of really solid experience to guide research direction might be really cool.  You might actually be able to do something that mattered, or you could get really into the nitty gritty on certain topics and become one of those badasses that people will reference in 50 years. 

Plus, a good PhD position provides funding which is the perfect way to ease into your FI years with a small income that helps you not touch your growing stache. 

[Patrick A]

I've thought about it at times.  After my Masters I stepped off the academia wagon when I realized I had no interest in spending my life grovelling for tenure. 

To be honest, I think that any PhD I might do now would be infinitely better and more worthwhile than what I might have produced when I was a whippersnapper.  Youth is wasted on the young.  That said, I'm not sure I'd be interested.

Good points here.  I agree on both.

[Primm]

I've been thinking about this too. It's a fair way down the track for me, but for this reason:

Plus, a good PhD position provides funding which is the perfect way to ease into your FI years with a small income that helps you not touch your growing stache.

PhDs here pay $25k+ a year, tax free. That's another 3 years I don't have to start using my retirement money.

Don't get me wrong, two friends I know have completed their doctorates in the last year, and it's bloody hard work. But I think part of the reason for them is that they also have families and were working part time because they couldn't afford just the PhD stipend.

I'm sure I can come up with some bullshit excuse for the "what I plan to do after I get my piece of paper" part of the application. :)

[daymare]

Hmm, that's an interesting idea.  I have a similar plan to go to law school when I'm older, for fun (obviously assuming I can get it for free/cheap).

I'm currently doing a PhD.  One thing to think about -- do you have the intention of getting funding to do your PhD?  Depending on your age, I wonder whether departments would be interested/willing to admit you.  From their perspective, they want people who are interested in being in academia, which they might think doesn't align with someone who is already 40 or 50.  Not saying this as discouragement, just food for thought.  Also, there is a lot that is lonely & hard about doing a PhD ... you could do a lot of the independent pursuit of learning & knowledge on your own, without doing a PhD program.

Also, as far as funding goes ... stipends can be really generous.  Mine is 31K/year (but at a top program, and my field is quiet lucrative, much more lucrative than humanities generally).  On the other hand, I hung around a lot in the econ PhD forums when I was applying (I am in a similar field), and some of the schools have stipends that are more in line with 12K.

[Calvawt]

I have considered getting my PHD in either finance or economics once achieving FI.

[Grid]

I would totally go into the PhD program here if it weren't for the simple fact that I'll reach FI sooner by heading into industry straight after the Master's.  I don't think I'll reconsider once I reach FI, even though I will probably jump right back into academia when I am FI.  By jump right in, I mean I'll do all the research I want on the topics I'm most interested in, and eventually give back by creatively building on that knowledge.  No PhD label required, no bureaucracy in working with a school system, and I'll learn exactly what I want to learn, and have an impact exactly where my passion lies. 

One of the most frustrating things in my current research is that I'm restricted to developing work within the scope of my advisor's umbrella of knowledge.  Those limits are unfortunate but ever-present in an academic environment.  It's true that similar limits exist on one's behavior in a work environment, and that's one of the reasons many are trying to reach FI.  So, my vote post-FI is just self-guided learning with a mentor here or there.  No need to have an associated degree program or laboratory agenda, just pure self-improvement as the goal.  YMMV of course - perhaps the structure associated with a program is best for some, and the benefits of that structure vary by the subject matter.

[Prepube]

Depending on your age, I wonder whether departments would be interested/willing to admit you.  From their perspective, they want people who are interested in being in academia, which they might think doesn't align with someone who is already 40 or 50.  Not saying this as discouragement, just food for thought.  Also, there is a lot that is lonely & hard about doing a PhD

Re: the "lonely and hard" part of a PhD, there is nothing more true.  The divorce rate among doctoral students in general is very high... in my group it was 100% (8/8).  Re: the academia and age piece, it totally depends on the type of degree you are seeking.  There are plenty of areas that a person could study that are not aimed at academia, and where age is an asset.  I never even considered working at a university when I was completing my PhD.  I am hoping to return to school and study veterinary medicine when I FIRE in a year or two. Don't know if I will get a DVM or not, but the programs I have spoken to have no interest in the fact I am in my 50's; my experience in other fields is, in fact, helping to attract some interest from potential programs.  Not saying that all older people like me should expect easy entry to a program.  Only that there are plenty of degree programs that don't care that much where the stipends go as long as the work you do for them now is good.

Having said that, if I wanted to simply increase my knowledge in the humanities as the OP does, and the PhD doesn't figure into my plans for a specific job, then I'd pick up a few good books and go to the beach rather than go the PhD route, because most programs are long, arduous, and not worth the money you spend on them.   

[Little Nell]

I encourage you to do it. What else financial independence for?  (from a Classics PhD).

[MrsPete]

Nope, I have no interest in pursuing more degrees.  I would only work towards another degree if it would help me financially (and in my own situation, it would not).

I would gain nothing either financially or emotionally from another degree. 

[arebelspy]

There are lots of things I want to learn in FI.  I'd love to go back to school for some advanced degrees in math and physics.

Most of the things I want to learn though are non-academic.

[Cressida]

I've thought about it at times.  After my Masters I stepped off the academia wagon when I realized I had no interest in spending my life grovelling for tenure. 

To be honest, I think that any PhD I might do now would be infinitely better and more worthwhile than what I might have produced when I was a whippersnapper.  Youth is wasted on the young.  That said, I'm not sure I'd be interested.

I could have written this word-for-word.

[Thegoblinchief]

I love to learn new things, but learning at the PhD level requires narrowing your mind so much. I'm much happier being a well-read generalist than an expert. Modern Renaissance man FTW.

[arebelspy]

I love to learn new things, but learning at the PhD level requires narrowing your mind so much. I'm much happier being a well-read generalist than an expert. Modern Renaissance man FTW.

There's nothing that says you can't do both - read lots on many subjects and delve deeply into one or two.

You don't have to get a phd, but without that level of study, there's certain things you won't be able to do.

[rocketpj]

When I think about what I'd like to learn if I had the time, I find myself more drawn to something completely non-academic, like apprenticing in fine furniture making or welding.

That said, there are definitely some interesting questions in my old academic field that I think I could apply a fair amount of experience to.  I have no issue with the work - in my consulting days I routinely wrote much harder, much longer reports and analysis than I would ever have to do in academia, even for a thesis.  I just don't know if I want to deal with academics any more.

[Patrick A]

I love to learn new things, but learning at the PhD level requires narrowing your mind so much. I'm much happier being a well-read generalist than an expert. Modern Renaissance man FTW.

I think the PhD process is different for everyone.  Sometimes it is extremely rigorous and narrow focus -- sometimes not.  How rigorous and narrow the experience is likely depends on your advisors, department, etc.

If you get the right combination of variables, it can be kind of like a vacation!  (compared to normal full time work)

[rubybeth]

My DH is currently in grad school and has mentioned his dream of doing a PhD someday, likely after we've reached FI (but he may keep working, depending on his job at the time). I think the only way he'd have time to write a thesis would be to quit his job, or be really part-time.

[Maybe Later]

I've thought about it at times.  After my Masters I stepped off the academia wagon when I realized I had no interest in spending my life grovelling for tenure.

I think you'd find achieving tenure isn't the problem. From my experience the hardest task is getting the job.  Competition is fierce and those that get hired won't need to grovel at all.  Of course there are exceptions, like vanity schools, but many, if not most, Assistant Profs at places like Harvard are there as a stepping stone and are not expecting to be there in 5 years.


To the OP:  I consider a second PhD .. or a different research area, if not the formal credential, for when I am approaching retirement.  I like the idea of volunteering my time researching diseases afflicting children or less glamorous diseases of the underdeveloped world. It would be a way to use my distinct skill set to a societal benefit that would give me personal satisfaction also.

[No Name Guy]

OP: 

Why pay? 

The PhD would likely be in the humanities (Latin, Literature, etc).

If you want to do humanities, what do you need to pay anyone for?  Libraries are free.  If you simply want the knowledge / wisdom that comes from studying, you can do it on your own.  You don't need anyone to validate you in this regard.

If you want to learn for the sake of learning....do it on your own, you don't need to pay for the privilege of doing so.  If you believe you do need to pay / go to grad school, you've fallen for one of the biggest consumerist sukka lines out there.

[MrsPete]

Most of the things I want to learn though are non-academic.

Yes, I'd say that too.  Most of the things I want to learn would not require tuition and would never lead to a degree.

[rocklebock]

I dropped out of a prestigious humanities PhD program. I didn't see eye-to-eye with my advisor, I couldn't see myself spending 8+ years researching a single narrow topic, and I found the lifestyle very isolating and lonely (and I'm an introvert). I don't regret it. I don't see myself going back, though the idea of timing it so that I'd get a $25k or so stipend around the time I hit FI is intriguing - I never thought of that before reading this thread.

For those suggesting just going to a library and reading books on your own - as a librarian, I'm all for that, but it's not the same thing as PhD-level education. As well as lots and lots of reading, PhD study involves rigorous training, research, writing, and review by peers and mentors so you can make an original, unique contribution to your field. Generally people go into PhD programs because they want that experience, not so they can read lots of books.

[MsRichLife]

I've been thinking about this too. It's a fair way down the track for me, but for this reason:

Plus, a good PhD position provides funding which is the perfect way to ease into your FI years with a small income that helps you not touch your growing stache.

PhDs here pay $25k+ a year, tax free. That's another 3 years I don't have to start using my retirement money.

Don't get me wrong, two friends I know have completed their doctorates in the last year, and it's bloody hard work. But I think part of the reason for them is that they also have families and were working part time because they couldn't afford just the PhD stipend.

I'm sure I can come up with some bullshit excuse for the "what I plan to do after I get my piece of paper" part of the application. :)

It's definitely something I'm considering post-FIRE.

I'm just finishing up an MPhil (full-time) and have thoroughly enjoyed the experience so I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy doing a PhD. I'm an Engineer, but my research this year has been in Humanities and Social Science and that's where my interests lie these days. I have less than zero desire to undertake a technical PhD.

Also, the $25K p.a. stipend for 3 years would be a nice little bonus so we can leave the stash alone to grow some more.

[RootofGood]

I already have enough doctorates for one lifetime, although I did briefly consider going back for a FIRE PhD just for kicks.  Maybe I'll still do it once I'm not as busy with the kids? 

It probably wouldn't be in a field I studied previously (civil engineering and law), but who knows? I have a pretty broad range of academic interests some of which would be well-satisfied by a PhD program.  For example, a combo of materials science and construction engineering to study and develop longer life, lower maintenance, lower cost construction materials to make housing more affordable and longer lasting.  I know of a great materials science and construction engineering department that would give me a big enough stipend to cover our whole annual ER budget, but then it would become work.  I doubt it would be possible to go very part time like I would want to.   

So far I've sated my curiosity and intellectual interests with a combo of online learning (duolingo and coursera) and writing (blog, freelance writing).  I tend to get really interested in something for a few days or few weeks, learn a lot about the subject or topic, and then find something shinier to learn about and move on.  Hence the PhD format might not work too well for me if I'm just doing it for fun. 

[Argyle]

I have a PhD and admit PhD students in our program at my university.  I have to dispute the above statement about universities letting in anyone who has their own funding.  We don't look at applicants' funding in their applications; we don't ask and they don't say anything about it.  So we'd have no way of knowing what your funding situation was even if we were inclined to admit you because of it.  The funding information goes to a wholly different office which decides what funding you get only after you're admitted.

We also have to teach you.  If you're a blockhead with enough money to pay your own way, we still don't want to have to deal with you.  It doesn't do your professors any good to have your own funding — we don't get paid any differently  no matter where the funding comes from.