PhD / Academia

[SharpMi]

Hello Everyone,

I have been a reader of this forum for about a year now – this is an awesome community of great people! I have learned a lot!
Last year I received some really good advice when I asked about pursuing additional degree.  Fast forward one year – I am getting my MBA at a state school and this is fully paid for by my employer ( I will graduate by the end of this year).
 I know the goal for most mustachians is to retire early. In the past few months I have realized how much I actually enjoy studying and the academic environment. I am already an avid reader and the intellectual stimulation I get from school makes me happy.  So, I have thought about pursuing a PhD.  I don’t think in my current situation it would be a good idea to do it full time. However, I found part – time PhD programs in business from schools that are AACSB accredited (for example: University of North Carolina, University of Wisconsin). The total costs of the 3-year programs range from 80,000 – 100,000, which I would be able to pay in cash while still fully funding my retirement accounts.
I would like to study business with possible concentration in accounting or management information systems. The ultimate goal would be to get a job at a small college/university (or even at a community college) and teach. I could even move back to my home country and look for a position there. If I graduate and this is not possible – I can still continue working in my profession.   

I appreciate any input/advice you might have on jobs in academia or a choice of PhD. 

[Tasse]

Quoting from where I posted on your "deleted" thread by mistake.

What does a PhD in business get you? Do you have to have one to teach? What are you hoping to gain?

Do you know anyone doing a business PhD or have you been able to observe any part of the process? I am like you - avid reader, enjoys studying and the challenge of learning new things - and that's not what my biology PhD program has been like, really. Now, I'm sure that biology and business are entirely different degrees to pursue! But you shouldn't assume just because it's the "next step" of academia that it will be just like the last one. In my program we take 1-2 years of classes and then spend 3-4 years in something much more like an apprenticeship program than like studying for a Bachelor's (or Master's) degree. Make sure you know what you're getting into.

I am kind of surprised you can finish a PhD in 3 years part-time. Are you sure? The shortest programs I know are 3 years full-time. But again, different fields.

In summary, your post doesn't sound to me like you want a PhD for a specific reason, but rather because you think it sounds like a fun challenge. There are cheaper and more effective ways to find intellectual stimulation. In my opinion, you should do a PhD because it gives you access to a career path you really want and wouldn't otherwise have. If that's the case for you, then maybe it's a good idea.

[tyrannostache]

Before you make this leap, do 2 things:

1) Find someone (preferably, several someones) who has the kind of job that you want. Talk to them about their training and about their view of the current job market. Also talk about the programs you are considering and how they are regarded in the field.

2) Dig in to some serious research on the field and programs you are considering. Think of this as an investment. What would you be getting for $100,000? What percentage of graduates actually finish in 3 years? What happens to them when they are done? Look at the job placement data. If they can't give you that information, don't go.

I don't know much about the world of business PhDs (more familiar with humanities and sciences), but in general, online PhD programs are not highly regarded, especially if your goal is to teach in a college or university setting. A PhD from a 3-year part-time program is not likely to qualify you for these kinds of jobs. To teach, you usually need teaching experience and a record of research publications in addition to any nonacademic experience you bring to the table.

And I'm going to be the first in what is likely to be a chorus of people telling you not pay for a PhD program. Any program worth the ink on the degree will pay YOU to go in the form of tuition remission and teaching/research jobs. If that's what you truly want to do, why not wait until you are closer to FIRE, then dig in to a more rigorous PhD program? Save yourself $100k or more. If you have that much money to burn, I think you'd be better of sinking it into investments than paying for the privilege of a potentially worthless degree.

To be honest, a love for studying and the academic environment is not a particularly good reason to sink so much cash into a PhD. There are cheaper and more effective ways to satisfy that desire.

[maizefolk]

I'll be the second one in the list of folks tyrannostache predicted saying that, in most fields I have experience in (although there may be exceptions), a PhD you have to pay tuition for, rather than getting a TA/RA/fellowship is already a pretty big red flag in terms of the quality of the degree you are getting.

In a business/accounting PhD do you still need to write a thesis/publish peer reviewed papers? If so, I also agree with Tass that the experience of getting a PhD is very different from the experience of taking classes in a BS or MS. You make like it more. You may like it a lot less.

[OtherJen]

And I'm going to be the first in what is likely to be a chorus of people telling you not pay for a PhD program. Any program worth the ink on the degree will pay YOU to go in the form of tuition remission and teaching/research jobs. If that's what you truly want to do, why not wait until you are closer to FIRE, then dig in to a more rigorous PhD program? Save yourself $100k or more. If you have that much money to burn, I think you'd be better of sinking it into investments than paying for the privilege of a potentially worthless degree.

To be honest, a love for studying and the academic environment is not a particularly good reason to sink so much cash into a PhD. There are cheaper and more effective ways to satisfy that desire.

This. I mostly loved doing my PhD. I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't been given a full scholarship and living stipend with health insurance (i.e., they made it worth my while to leave my lab tech position). Like others have said, there are other less expensive and less mentally/emotionally demanding ways to satisfy your curiosity and further your career.

I also question the timeline. Three years part-time sounds unrealistic. Granted, you're going in with a masters, but that would generally only shave a couple of years off of a standard PhD; in other words, 3 years of full-time education sounds more realistic. Also, with part-time you wouldn't be getting the hands-on experience of academia, which you will need if you intend to teach.

[sol]

Business degrees are a very different beast, unlike normal academic degrees.  They expect you to pay, and what you are buying is prestige and connections.  The textbook learning you do is sort of secondary, and you can absolutely get all of it for free online.

All of the MBAs I know said that most of their peers really focused on the "connections" side, attending all of the fancy parties and refining their name dropping technique. Getting a degree from an online program would seem to undermine this entire point.  You're there to join the global elite, not do homework sets.

My advice: if you genuinely love learning, then go learn.  You don't need a transcript or a diploma to certify your accomplishments, if you accomplish them because you truly desire the struggle and achievement for personal reasons.  Fancy degrees are for people who value fancy degrees, not for people who love to learn.

-sol, PhD '08

[SharpMi]

The 3-year programs I looked at are not online programs. For the first two years students take classes about research methods and other subjects related to their major. The 3rd year is for your dissertation. You are encouraged to do research and publish during your studies. Even though this is a part-time program - the time commitment is significant. These programs were designed for working professionals who don't want to give up the career for 4-5 years to pursue a traditional PhD. In order to be accepted into the program you need a Masters and several years of management experience. I think these are fairly new programs that people are not familiar with.

Some examples include:

https://www.uww.edu/cobe/dba
https://robinson.gsu.edu/executive-doctorate-in-business/
https://dba.uncc.edu/

I have done some research and currently there is a shortage of accounting PhD's and this is an area I would like to study. I know that in order to teach in a higher ranking school I would need a PhD from a top university, however this is not what I want. My goal is to learn( do research) and teach in smaller school or community college. If based on the opinions - this is not  achievable with a part-time PhD then I will just forget about this idea and maybe pursue a full time program once I am FI.

Thanks for all the input - I appreciate it!

[SharpMi]

Quoting from where I posted on your "deleted" thread by mistake.

What does a PhD in business get you? Do you have to have one to teach? What are you hoping to gain?

Do you know anyone doing a business PhD or have you been able to observe any part of the process? I am like you - avid reader, enjoys studying and the challenge of learning new things - and that's not what my biology PhD program has been like, really. Now, I'm sure that biology and business are entirely different degrees to pursue! But you shouldn't assume just because it's the "next step" of academia that it will be just like the last one. In my program we take 1-2 years of classes and then spend 3-4 years in something much more like an apprenticeship program than like studying for a Bachelor's (or Master's) degree. Make sure you know what you're getting into.

I am kind of surprised you can finish a PhD in 3 years part-time. Are you sure? The shortest programs I know are 3 years full-time. But again, different fields.

In summary, your post doesn't sound to me like you want a PhD for a specific reason, but rather because you think it sounds like a fun challenge. There are cheaper and more effective ways to find intellectual stimulation. In my opinion, you should do a PhD because it gives you access to a career path you really want and wouldn't otherwise have. If that's the case for you, then maybe it's a good idea.

Thank you for your comment. What was your reason for pursuing PhD? 

[Tasse]

What does a PhD in business get you? Do you have to have one to teach? What are you hoping to gain?

Do you know anyone doing a business PhD or have you been able to observe any part of the process? I am like you - avid reader, enjoys studying and the challenge of learning new things - and that's not what my biology PhD program has been like, really. Now, I'm sure that biology and business are entirely different degrees to pursue! But you shouldn't assume just because it's the "next step" of academia that it will be just like the last one. In my program we take 1-2 years of classes and then spend 3-4 years in something much more like an apprenticeship program than like studying for a Bachelor's (or Master's) degree. Make sure you know what you're getting into.

I am kind of surprised you can finish a PhD in 3 years part-time. Are you sure? The shortest programs I know are 3 years full-time. But again, different fields.

In summary, your post doesn't sound to me like you want a PhD for a specific reason, but rather because you think it sounds like a fun challenge. There are cheaper and more effective ways to find intellectual stimulation. In my opinion, you should do a PhD because it gives you access to a career path you really want and wouldn't otherwise have. If that's the case for you, then maybe it's a good idea.

Thank you for your comment. What was your reason for pursuing PhD?

Nominally, it was because I wanted to have a career in research, and you need a PhD to get there. In retrospect, a fair amount of my motivation was exactly what I'm warning you away from: I knew I liked school and I wanted to keep doing something that would keep me constantly learning. But that hasn't been my experience of a PhD; at least in biology, a research degree is as much about creating new knowledge as about obtaining "known" knowledge, and the two processes are very different. Not everyone who likes the second is interested in the first, which is at minimum much slower. "Creating new knowledge" sounds romantic, but it's a grind.

I don't regret starting my PhD, and I still intend to finish it because I still think it will let me do unique and interesting things with my career, but the substance of those goals has changed, and I don't think I had any idea what I was getting into when I committed in the first place. If nothing else, it is rarely or never the fastest or most efficient way to obtain FI (and certainly not if you're paying for the degree, which I am not).

My goal is to learn( do research) and teach in smaller school or community college.

Can you pursue these goals - particularly teaching at a community college - without a PhD? In my experience with community college the lecturers are not required to hold doctorates.

[wbranch]

I considered going a PhD/Teaching for accounting route while in college and discussed it with several professors. I still think about it on occasion. Most I talked to had tuition covered and stipend, they said it did not make sense to do a program if it was not covered. Smaller state school accounting professors starting salaries were around 80k-90k in LCOL areas 10 yrs ago. I just checked the state website and one professor I had that started in 2008 had a 2016 salary of $137k. The smaller state schools are heavier in teaching vs. research.

[nippycrisp]

Everything said by the PhDs ranges from cautionary to discouraging. Although you should have an easy answer, I detect a whiff of, "I'm going to do it anyway" in OPs reply, so I'll add a little more damper.

A real PhD program will require you to make a substantive contribution to the knowledge base of our species. The fact that any of these programs put a defined (and super short) time frame on this process is already a major red flag. Then there's the focus. To me, the distinction between "business" and "economics" degrees is one of pragmatism vs theory, real-world preparedness versus modeling and comprehension. Training is required for business, but further value is imparted primarily by experience rather accumulation of knowledge via experimental means.

I suppose this is a nice way of saying I think it's a useless degree if your goal is to teach business.

On a more negative note, I checked out the UNC-Charlotte program's website for a second. It looks like a thrown-together money grab. $84K for six semesters of one weekend a month? C'mon, man, be real about the value (monetary and otherwise) there. The terms "executive format" and "fast track" do not go with PhD.

Sorry I'm so harsh - this sort of play by Universities is University of Phoenix-type manipulation in my eyes and it hits a nerve.

[OurTown]

Business degrees are a very different beast, unlike normal academic degrees.  They expect you to pay, and what you are buying is prestige and connections.  The textbook learning you do is sort of secondary, and you can absolutely get all of it for free online.

All of the MBAs I know said that most of their peers really focused on the "connections" side, attending all of the fancy parties and refining their name dropping technique. Getting a degree from an online program would seem to undermine this entire point.  You're there to join the global elite, not do homework sets.

My advice: if you genuinely love learning, then go learn.  You don't need a transcript or a diploma to certify your accomplishments, if you accomplish them because you truly desire the struggle and achievement for personal reasons.  Fancy degrees are for people who value fancy degrees, not for people who love to learn.

-sol, PhD '08

I concur

-OurTown, Ph.D. '00

P.S.  Also, I discovered it won't necessarily make you any money.

-OurTown, J.D. '09

[SharpMi]

Everything said by the PhDs ranges from cautionary to discouraging. Although you should have an easy answer, I detect a whiff of, "I'm going to do it anyway" in OPs reply, so I'll add a little more damper.

A real PhD program will require you to make a substantive contribution to the knowledge base of our species. The fact that any of these programs put a defined (and super short) time frame on this process is already a major red flag. Then there's the focus. To me, the distinction between "business" and "economics" degrees is one of pragmatism vs theory, real-world preparedness versus modeling and comprehension. Training is required for business, but further value is imparted primarily by experience rather accumulation of knowledge via experimental means.

I suppose this is a nice way of saying I think it's a useless degree if your goal is to teach business.

On a more negative note, I checked out the UNC-Charlotte program's website for a second. It looks like a thrown-together money grab. $84K for six semesters of one weekend a month? C'mon, man, be real about the value (monetary and otherwise) there. The terms "executive format" and "fast track" do not go with PhD.

Sorry I'm so harsh - this sort of play by Universities is University of Phoenix-type manipulation in my eyes and it hits a nerve.

No worries - I want honest opinions even if they are harsh :)  This is why I am asking. Sorry it seemed like I had "I'm going to do it anyway" attitude.  I only want to teach and if this is not possible with a program like this then that's ok too.  I might try teaching part-time at a community college after I am done with my masters. I have a friend who currently does this and he enjoys it. That's the only other way I can teach business without a PhD.

I also have a friend with a biology PhD, who teaches at a state university. He makes a lot less than I do now - so I have realistic expectations when it comes to salary. Maybe I should wait and entertain the idea ( traditional PhD) again once I am closer to FIRE.

Thank you!

[MrThatsDifferent]

I think it’s great that you have this passion, just, be cautious. When you teach you also have to churn out research and it is far less glamorous that it may seem. You’re teach about 1/4 of the time with the rest in near isolation. And then it’s dealing with university systems, which can be a pain in the ass.

But the thing is, if teaching is what you like to do, the work as an adjunct part-time at a local college or community college. If you like research, you can still do it now and still get published. You don’t need a PhD. 

Don’t do any PhD that you have to pay for, not in the US.  If you’re going to do it, get the school to give you the PhD free ride. And if you’re going to do that, yes, I’d do it after I retire because a PhD is hard and doing it part time is a nightmare. If you pay for it, you won’t get your money’s worth.

[garth]

I have a business PhD and am currently TT faculty at an R1 university. PM me if you have specific questions, but I think a 3-year, part-time PhD that you pay for out-of-pocket is an extraordinary bad idea. You won't have put in the time necessary to graduate with a competitive skill set and CV. It does vary by specific discipline, but 6 years of full-time study is common for a business PhD. And the folks who put in their 6 years will be your job market competition. Even if you only want to teach, you'll find that many of the traditional graduates coming out of R1 and R2 schools decide that hardcore research isn't for them and instead go for the teaching jobs you'd be targeting. It will be very hard for you to compete. In fact, I really doubt that a part-time PhD program is meant to prepare you for a academic job. More likely, it's something set up to attract practitioners who want a few more initials after their name or retirees with the interest and means but no real expectation of moving into academia. Basically, I'd guess it's really just an income stream for those mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming.

*The UW and UNC systems have top tier schools in them, but I really doubt that their flagships offer this part-time PhD.

[Blackeagle]

With the caveat that while I have a PhD, its in an entirely different discipline:

• Most PhDs take more than three years working full time.
• A PhD is only really advantageous to your income/job prospects in certain very narrow situations (seeking a faculty position at a university, certain specialized research roles, etc.).  I switched from the faculty route to a non-academic job after a few years after I got my PhD and having a doctorate was probably a net negative when it came to my non-academic job search.  While I use the knowledge I gained during my PhD program, these days the degree itself doesn't mean much (I don't have "Dr." or "PhD" in my email signature or on my business card).

[mizzourah2006]

Business degrees are a very different beast, unlike normal academic degrees.  They expect you to pay, and what you are buying is prestige and connections.  The textbook learning you do is sort of secondary, and you can absolutely get all of it for free online.

All of the MBAs I know said that most of their peers really focused on the "connections" side, attending all of the fancy parties and refining their name dropping technique. Getting a degree from an online program would seem to undermine this entire point.  You're there to join the global elite, not do homework sets.

My advice: if you genuinely love learning, then go learn.  You don't need a transcript or a diploma to certify your accomplishments, if you accomplish them because you truly desire the struggle and achievement for personal reasons.  Fancy degrees are for people who value fancy degrees, not for people who love to learn.

-sol, PhD '08

What business PhDs? I took a lot of classes with management PhDs during my PhD program in I/O psychology and at least at my school their stipends were in the $25-$30k range.

I agree with others if your goal is Academia going to a program that charges you ~$30k/yr isn’t going to be a good start. Also, I haven’t seen PhD programs that are only 3 years. First 3 years for us was coursework and research followed by comprehensive exams to start the 4th year and the dissertation usually takes an additional 1-1.5 years.

[partgypsy]

Community college wise well at least 5 years ago you didn't need a PhD to teach. My mom has a master's and taught part time. My dad who was a businessman, was asked to teach business classes in his particular field. he has a high school diploma. They are looking for people who can teach and or people w relevant real world experience. The caveat being, my mom's college went from 75% full time teachers with benefits and 25% pt, to 75% pt working just under ft rules, and just 25 % actual faculty. Competition is tight for those ft teaching jobs. I don't recommend the paid PhD program if u want to teach. I don't think the pt program you describe would make u competitive if you wanted to do academic research.

[SharpMi]

Thanks a lot for all the input! I will scrap the idea of the part time PhD. Maybe once I FIRE - I will think about a traditional program.
Next year - I will try teaching at a community college to see if I even like it.

[SharpMi]

I have a business PhD and am currently TT faculty at an R1 university. PM me if you have specific questions, but I think a 3-year, part-time PhD that you pay for out-of-pocket is an extraordinary bad idea. You won't have put in the time necessary to graduate with a competitive skill set and CV. It does vary by specific discipline, but 6 years of full-time study is common for a business PhD. And the folks who put in their 6 years will be your job market competition. Even if you only want to teach, you'll find that many of the traditional graduates coming out of R1 and R2 schools decide that hardcore research isn't for them and instead go for the teaching jobs you'd be targeting. It will be very hard for you to compete. In fact, I really doubt that a part-time PhD program is meant to prepare you for a academic job. More likely, it's something set up to attract practitioners who want a few more initials after their name or retirees with the interest and means but no real expectation of moving into academia. Basically, I'd guess it's really just an income stream for those mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming.

*The UW and UNC systems have top tier schools in them, but I really doubt that their flagships offer this part-time PhD.

I appreciate your response. I decided against the part time program. Like everyone else mentioned - it would be a bad decision.
Can you clarify what you meant by saying " mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming" ?  I am just curious what " shake out is coming" ?

[partgypsy]

I have a business PhD and am currently TT faculty at an R1 university. PM me if you have specific questions, but I think a 3-year, part-time PhD that you pay for out-of-pocket is an extraordinary bad idea. You won't have put in the time necessary to graduate with a competitive skill set and CV. It does vary by specific discipline, but 6 years of full-time study is common for a business PhD. And the folks who put in their 6 years will be your job market competition. Even if you only want to teach, you'll find that many of the traditional graduates coming out of R1 and R2 schools decide that hardcore research isn't for them and instead go for the teaching jobs you'd be targeting. It will be very hard for you to compete. In fact, I really doubt that a part-time PhD program is meant to prepare you for a academic job. More likely, it's something set up to attract practitioners who want a few more initials after their name or retirees with the interest and means but no real expectation of moving into academia. Basically, I'd guess it's really just an income stream for those mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming.

*The UW and UNC systems have top tier schools in them, but I really doubt that their flagships offer this part-time PhD.

I appreciate your response. I decided against the part time program. Like everyone else mentioned - it would be a bad decision.
Can you clarify what you meant by saying " mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming" ?  I am just curious what " shake out is coming" ?

This is just my guess, but might be about schools becoming too expensive for their own good. The majority of Americans cannot afford to send multiple children to college. So you will have a splitting, between families who are willing to pay anything and fight to get into ivy league type schools for the perceived benefits/prestige, and the families who will have the students go 2 years to community college and then finish up at a regular school, or some other alternative. Overall, there will be less students going to mid/lower tier schools for 4 full years. 

[maizefolk]

I'm not garth, but it is the feeling in many parts of academia right now (or at least the parts I interact with) is that the growth in higher education has probably hit a point of unsustainability.

State support for public universities continues to be cut, so schools are trying to boost enrollment to compensate as tuition cannot continue to rise indefinitely. However, at this point most of the people with the qualifications, abilities, and interest to make it through college are probably going to one college or another. So lots of schools are investing lots of money chasing the same population of students which ultimately becomes a zero sum game.

The value proposition of the top schools is clear, even if you end up paying full sticker price of 1/4 to 1/3 million dollars to attend. There are also a lot of really strong state schools where it clearly makes sense for students to attend. But once you get down into the bottom half of universities in the USA, it starts to be questionable whether they'll continue to be able to recruit enough students who are both able to pay tuition and have the qualifications/interest/motivation to succeed and graduate. Adding to this, the costs of a lot of those schools has been subsidized by international students who payed full tuition without in-state tuition breaks or significant financial aid, however the number of international students applying to mid and lower tier schools has dropped dramatically since 2016.*

Universities can die if they drop below an enrollment where their economies of scale break down. That's what almost happened to Sweet Briar College a couple of years ago. It might actually happen to Mizzou. Their freshmen enrollment is down 35% from 2015 to 2017 and they are shuttering dormitories and cutting services left and right (which in turn makes attending college there less appealing, which makes it less likely their can turn their freshman enrollment around and so on).

*Total international enrollment at US universities declined 4% between 2016 and 2017. When you take into account it takes four years for a change in admission rates to be fully reflected in total enrollment, that's about a 16% decline in total international enrollment if we're at a new steady state.

[garth]

I have a business PhD and am currently TT faculty at an R1 university. PM me if you have specific questions, but I think a 3-year, part-time PhD that you pay for out-of-pocket is an extraordinary bad idea. You won't have put in the time necessary to graduate with a competitive skill set and CV. It does vary by specific discipline, but 6 years of full-time study is common for a business PhD. And the folks who put in their 6 years will be your job market competition. Even if you only want to teach, you'll find that many of the traditional graduates coming out of R1 and R2 schools decide that hardcore research isn't for them and instead go for the teaching jobs you'd be targeting. It will be very hard for you to compete. In fact, I really doubt that a part-time PhD program is meant to prepare you for a academic job. More likely, it's something set up to attract practitioners who want a few more initials after their name or retirees with the interest and means but no real expectation of moving into academia. Basically, I'd guess it's really just an income stream for those mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming.

*The UW and UNC systems have top tier schools in them, but I really doubt that their flagships offer this part-time PhD.

I appreciate your response. I decided against the part time program. Like everyone else mentioned - it would be a bad decision.
Can you clarify what you meant by saying " mid/lower-tier schools* that are scrambling to insulate themselves against the shake out that is coming" ?  I am just curious what " shake out is coming" ?

A good decision. Go for your PhD when you’re FI. partgypsy and maizeman summed up what I think is happening in higher ed.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Panda is spot on. Also, inevitably, with PhDs, life gets in the way at some point and if you’re not focused as hel, committed, with a great support system and great supervisor, it might be tough to get back to the PhD and all that time and effort goes down the drain. Which, brings up the most important thing you’re going to need to do: get an amazing and dedicated supervisor, they will make or break you. Secure that person first.

[maizefolk]

Back when we were rotating the advice I received was that over a lifetime who you pick to marry probably has a bigger influence on your happiness than who you pick to be your advisor, but for the next 5-7 years the effect sizes of those two choices is about equal.

[Padonak]

Another vote against getting a PhD in business (or DBA), especially if you have to pay for it.

If you want to learn more about accounting and MIS, you can find a job where you'll probably learn more about both, at least from a practical point of view, and also get paid 6 figures. If you want to learn something in addition to what you learn on the job, just take online courses.

[FiftyIsTheNewTwenty]

A side note, not directly answering the OP:

While you can teach at a community college (or even a 4 year school) without a PhD, it'll only ever be part-time, and not enough to live on.  The window for full-time professors without PhDs closed a long time ago at 4-year schools, and it's closing at community colleges too.

[Smokystache]

My mid-range private liberal arts college in a (relatively low cost of living area of the US) would be happy to give you a tenure-track position. You'll teach a 3-4 and have relatively small classes (20-40 students). Are you OK starting at $48k??

Having said that, my PhD in a different field has opened up numerous doors for me and it satisfied a personal life-long goal.

[marble_faun]

Whew, I'm glad the OP decided not to do this.

A reputable PhD program will pay YOU a stipend. You shouldn't be paying them.

Also: three years, part-time?  That doesn't sound right.

You have the usual terminal "business" degree.  See what you can make of that before returning to school.

[maizefolk]

Depending upon the department, $48k might even be competitive with the starting TT pay at some of the R* schools.

You got me curious so I looked up some of the starting assistant prof salaries in departments at my local BPU (big public university) with reputations for lower pay. Even in places like english and musicology it looks like folks generally come in around $60k/year as a new TT assistant prof. Also, contrary to the stereotype I'd heard, it seems ethnic studies assistant profs make noticeably more starting out (~$75k/year).

Anyway, completely off topic, and this particular BPU is not necessarily representative.

[partgypsy]

My mid-range private liberal arts college in a (relatively low cost of living area of the US) would be happy to give you a tenure-track position. You'll teach a 3-4 and have relatively small classes (20-40 students). Are you OK starting at $48k??

Having said that, my PhD in a different field has opened up numerous doors for me and it satisfied a personal life-long goal.

I disagree with that assessment. Granted this was 20years ago, but I had just gotten a PhD from a competitive school, had a paper in press, and had teaching experience while in school. I applied to a couple small liberal arts colleges in my state. I got thanks but no thanks letters letting me know respectively 200, or 400 people had applied for that position. You had to be amazing to even get an interview. I can't imagine it's any less competitive now.

[SharpMi]

Thank you all for your comments. I have thought about this more over the last couple of days and the part-time program doesn't make sense. I only looked into this because a regular PhD would be a huge sacrifice for me. I already make a little over 100k so I would have to give up a lot to attend a full time program. I like my job and usually only work 40hrs a week (great work-life balance). In addition, my employer just paid 35k for my MBA and although I didn't sign anything I feel obligated to stay for at least couple more years.
After some of the comments - I read more about academia and academic job market and things are not looking good. I will just stick to what I am good at and keep saving money.

I really appreciate everyone's input. Glad I asked before I made a huge mistake!

[SharpMi]

My mid-range private liberal arts college in a (relatively low cost of living area of the US) would be happy to give you a tenure-track position. You'll teach a 3-4 and have relatively small classes (20-40 students). Are you OK starting at $48k??

Having said that, my PhD in a different field has opened up numerous doors for me and it satisfied a personal life-long goal.

I would be ok with 48k but after I am FI. It's just crazy to think how low some of the teaching salaries are. I was making this much without a college degree.

[PDXTabs]

Most PhD students don't have to pay tuition and receive a stipend either for teaching, research, or both.

I have a BS in Computer Science and my partner has a PhD in Biochemistry. She loves her job but I make more money than her, by at least one integer multiple. She would not spend that five years of her life again in that way.

Ironically I might one day quit to do a PhD just for the learning, but I would need to be FI first because there is no way to justify it in my field otherwise.

[Lostcomm]

I have a PhD. I really think it only makes sense if someone else is paying for it, your school or possibly your employer. It will make you very little extra money, but it for sure makes you stand out. You're no longer "candidate X", you're that guy with the PhD, which gets you noticed. (I've had headhunters tell me exactly this.)

If you begin a PhD, you have to understand a few things (in my opinion, please discard this if you don't wish the unsolicited advice.)

-You better have something to say. It's ok to undertake work that no one understands, but you better be able to explain at last a piece of it in about three sentences. I've had colleagues who when asked about their work have told the person asking they literally weren't smart enough to understand the answer. My colleagues were correct by the way, but it comes off as being a jerk. So... what do you want to study? It probably won't be what you finish with, but you must start with something or you'll flail about for years.

-Get through the program. Three years part time is a fantasy. The academic work is easy if you have a masters, it's the dissertation that kills people. Comps are, in my opinion, no big deal if you're working with a committee already. But never forget you're not there to learn anything, you're there to get through the program. You can't help but learn something along the way, but that's not the objective. A fair number of people keep working past where they need to in order to add to the science- do that in post grad. Ask your questions, answer them, graduate.

-It's isolating. Lonely. Literally no one on the planet understands the work you're doing and therefore cannot sympathize with you.

-It's selfish. Everyone around you that you love pays the price for your degree because of the time and energy you'll take from them.

-No one takes a new PhD seriously. In five years people will consider you a "real" PhD. Until then...

-I've heard it say that you have to learn to "think like a lawyer" in law school. PhD work fundamentally changes your thought process. To this day I have a hard time reading long form fiction and can point directly to my dissertation years as the reason. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you should be aware of the change.

-The insecurities of people you meet will manifest in ways you can't even imagine when they find out you're a PhD. Suddenly everyone you meet has a brother who got into MIT or they were accepted into a rocket science program but decided on art school instead. It can be uncomfortable, sad, funny, or just odd. And you'll have to live with it. (You ever see the youtube videos of a guy getting gas in his Ferrari? Everyone comes up to talk about how they used to have a sweet Mustang/whatever. It's similar.)

-Your Committee will ride you hard, and the day you tell them "No, I'm the expert. You guys are all wrong." Is the day you become a doctor. You might not notice it.

-Most people don't finish. I would have quit if I didn't have to pay my employer back.

-If you decide to proceed, find big datasets you didn't have to collect and use those for you research. It'll take two or three years off.

-As a PhD your opinion is worth more even when it shouldn't be. You'll protest that you don't know anything about zoology, but people will think you're just humble even though your PhD is in business (and yes, even a business PhD is a scientist. You might not wear a lab coat, but it's the same work.)

-You'll be expected to teach, even if it's a little. You can quit after a while, but it's a part of PhD credibility. It's easy to do it part time for a bit and then say you just didn't like it.

-You can decide how much you want to trade on the degree. I only have people I really like, or really don't like call me doctor. As an aside, the people you like (friends and family) will brag on you more than you know. "Oh, you're Sally's PhD cousin! I've heard about you!"

-That's right, you become the title. Similar to the military, where you're "The Captain, The First Sergeant, Whatever," you become "Doctor." Even if it isn't to your face.

-I discourage DBAs. Nobody knows what they are and you might have to explain it. At that point you're behind. It's a real shame, too. Every DBA I know is a genius and has done very solid work.

-If you quit, well, that's another discussion. It's tough to unring that bell.

Good luck on your decision!

[maizefolk]

-If you decide to proceed, find big datasets you didn't have to collect and use those for you research. It'll take two or three years off.

Very good advice in my field. Now that you bring it up, I realize you're right it's really good advice in pretty much any field.

I knew a guy (in another department) that spent two years tracking hyenas in Africa with GPS collars and poking through stool samples in the field before he had enough data to actually start asking questions.

I only have people I really like, or really don't like call me doctor.

I laughed.

[Smokystache]

My mid-range private liberal arts college in a (relatively low cost of living area of the US) would be happy to give you a tenure-track position. You'll teach a 3-4 and have relatively small classes (20-40 students). Are you OK starting at $48k??

Having said that, my PhD in a different field has opened up numerous doors for me and it satisfied a personal life-long goal.

I disagree with that assessment. Granted this was 20years ago, but I had just gotten a PhD from a competitive school, had a paper in press, and had teaching experience while in school. I applied to a couple small liberal arts colleges in my state. I got thanks but no thanks letters letting me know respectively 200, or 400 people had applied for that position. You had to be amazing to even get an interview. I can't imagine it's any less competitive now.

I'll admit this is a n=1, but I was an asst dean for a while and so I really know the salaries we were offering 2 years ago. We have applicants for our business (management, HR, marketing) positions, but not many. We have a terrible time attracting and keeping Econ profs. My area of the country (Southeast Bible belt) and a state are not great for attracting people from across the country - it's beautiful and actually reasonably progressive, but you won't think that if you saw an ad on HigherEdJobs and you lived in a solidly blue state or large metro area.

My mid-range private liberal arts college in a (relatively low cost of living area of the US) would be happy to give you a tenure-track position. You'll teach a 3-4 and have relatively small classes (20-40 students). Are you OK starting at $48k??

Having said that, my PhD in a different field has opened up numerous doors for me and it satisfied a personal life-long goal.

A 3-4 with small classes at an SLAC really doesn't sound that bad if you goal is to have  teaching job. Depending upon the department, $48k might even be competitive with the starting TT pay at some of the R* schools.

It really isn't a bad gig if you want to focus on teaching, don't want to deal with "publish or perish". But if you begin thinking about what you could potentially make in the private sector, you'll drive yourself crazy. We've had some who are closer to retirement age who don't worry about the money and wanted to teach in a small environment.

[Padonak]

Another thing to consider which may not be relevant to OP but important to other people considering getting a DBA or PhD in Business and then getting a good corporate job.

If your plan is to get a job in Finance or another high paying research/analytics type of job in business, get a STEM PhD instead of DBA. Companies would rather hire a PhD in Biochemistry than a DBA because they know how smart and determined a person has to be to get an advanced STEM degree. In the analytics field, employers are mainly looking for analytical skills and work ethic. Studying SWOT analysis or Porter's 5 Forces Model ad nauseum won't help you get a job in business. Even if these frameworks are used in practice, which is very rare outside of Strategy Consulting, a a STEM PhD can learn them pretty quickly on the job. A Business PhD, on the other hand, may struggle to learn and use some of the technical aspects of an analytical job, such as coding and advanced statistical techniques.

[G-dog]

A friend got a professor position via getting her MBA. She’s a CPA as well, and went back to school for the MBA with the objective of teaching at a university.  She also had many years recruiting / hiring for accounting positions, and taught CPAexam prep classes.

She’s at a private college, and did have a chance at another private college. Community colleges also are less likely to require a PhD.

So - you may not need the PHD - especially in an area where there is a shortage, AND you have a good work history.

[sol]

My area of the country (Southeast Bible belt) and a state are not great for attracting people from across the country - it's beautiful and actually reasonably progressive, but you won't think that if you saw an ad on HigherEdJobs and you lived in a solidly blue state or large metro area.

I interviewed for a faculty position at Baylor.  They made it clear that they were looking for a true Christian first and foremost, but a Christian who could also teach a physical science.  I noped out of there fast.

[fiteacher]

I am sorry I didn't read through the full thread and apologize if some of this has been answered. First, if you want to do your Ph.D. in Accounting you should be able to actually get an assistantship with a stipend. The programs you included, including GSU where I got my Ph.D. (not in Accounting) has assistantships). Second, there is a HUGE shortage of accounting Ph.Ds and you would probably be able to get a tenure/track gig (I say probably because it is different depending on the school).

Third, you should only do your Ph.D., however, if you really want to teach/make this your long-term gig. There are a lot of politics with academia. Some of it I like, some of it I don't.

Finally, I might encourage you to get a couple of more years of work experience/well advance yourself to FI before doing the Ph.D.. Just because 3 years of doing a doctorate with a stipend isn't a lot of money to live on and the amount of money you make as a professor, while it can be great for lifestyle/work-life balance is nothing what you can make in the private sector.

You will make more money than a humanities Ph.D. at a university I can tell you that. My business colleagues start at about what I make now and I am a Full Professor. I know there are other professors on these forums, but I would be happy to talk to you over PMs if you want.

[partgypsy]

Just FYI: you don't need a PhD or to become a prof to work in a research environment.
I worked in research at a top Canadian university alongside PhDs doing the exact same knowledge-building work, but I was paid better, didn't have to grind as hard, and didn't hate my life like they did.
I frequently taught classes for the principle professor because he was often away, but I didn't have to hold office hours or grade papers.

My job was contingent on the principle getting enough grant money to be able to pay me, but he was a publishing machine so that was pretty much guaranteed. He had a lot of work and a lot of students to supervise, and very little time, which is why having a consistent research manager like me helped him stay on track and coordinate all of his students. He was too busy, they were too busy with their own stuff, so I basically ran the show and churned out research designs for others to do the grind work on. I got the fun part.

Because of that job, I was offered multiple research jobs with the government and the private sector, which would have paid very well compared to academia, and all I had was an undergrad degree. I ended up bailing on research and got a medical field doctorate instead because I was pretty sick of spending my days with fucking miserable PhDs who whined endlessly about their job prospects.

If you take the obvious path, you will always find it crowded.
Look for the gaps in the system that no one is filling, and that's where you will find the richest opportunities.

it's spelled Principal (can't help myself).

I also ditto researching what degree you want in what field, and what kind of demand there is for that. It is possible business or accounting PhDs are in shorter supply than what I got my degree in. Unfortunately graduate schools (at least when I attended) do not do a great job in educating people about possible job and career tracks with the kind of experience you get from that degree. My department emphasized everyone should have the same goal, of getting a tenure track faculty position at a research university. Other options were not discussed or considered a failure. I admit when I went to grad school I only had a hazy idea of what I wanted to do, and would have been better served to ask myself some hard questions of why I was getting this degree and what I wanted my outcome to be, before I went to grad school. 

[Glenstache]

Business degrees are a very different beast, unlike normal academic degrees.  They expect you to pay, and what you are buying is prestige and connections.  The textbook learning you do is sort of secondary, and you can absolutely get all of it for free online.

All of the MBAs I know said that most of their peers really focused on the "connections" side, attending all of the fancy parties and refining their name dropping technique. Getting a degree from an online program would seem to undermine this entire point.  You're there to join the global elite, not do homework sets.

My advice: if you genuinely love learning, then go learn.  You don't need a transcript or a diploma to certify your accomplishments, if you accomplish them because you truly desire the struggle and achievement for personal reasons.  Fancy degrees are for people who value fancy degrees, not for people who love to learn.

-sol, PhD '08

I concur

-OurTown, Ph.D. '00

P.S.  Also, I discovered it won't necessarily make you any money.

-OurTown, J.D. '09

+1 with a PhD '04.

You should also look at the reality of the community college hiring situation. There is a huge reliance on adjunct faculty at community colleges. Adjunct is shorthand for low pay, long hours, no job security. The salaries for tenured faculty may or may not be representative of the situation you would actually find yourself in. YMMV.

Part time PhDs who finish a substantive research project and get their gold stars are somewhat unicorns. I have known only a few that actually finished. I have met lots of people who are still "working on it."

[mizzourah2006]

Business degrees are a very different beast, unlike normal academic degrees.  They expect you to pay, and what you are buying is prestige and connections.  The textbook learning you do is sort of secondary, and you can absolutely get all of it for free online.

All of the MBAs I know said that most of their peers really focused on the "connections" side, attending all of the fancy parties and refining their name dropping technique. Getting a degree from an online program would seem to undermine this entire point.  You're there to join the global elite, not do homework sets.

My advice: if you genuinely love learning, then go learn.  You don't need a transcript or a diploma to certify your accomplishments, if you accomplish them because you truly desire the struggle and achievement for personal reasons.  Fancy degrees are for people who value fancy degrees, not for people who love to learn.

-sol, PhD '08

I concur

-OurTown, Ph.D. '00

P.S.  Also, I discovered it won't necessarily make you any money.

-OurTown, J.D. '09

+1 with a PhD '04.

You should also look at the reality of the community college hiring situation. There is a huge reliance on adjunct faculty at community colleges. Adjunct is shorthand for low pay, long hours, no job security. The salaries for tenured faculty may or may not be representative of the situation you would actually find yourself in. YMMV.

Part time PhDs who finish a substantive research project and get their gold stars are somewhat unicorns. I have known only a few that actually finished. I have met lots of people who are still "working on it."

Yeah Adjuncting almost isn't worth it unless you are extremely passionate about teaching. Most of the time you are lucky to get $2.5-$3.5k for teaching a course, at least that's been my experience.

[sol]

Yeah Adjuncting almost isn't worth it unless you are extremely passionate about teaching. Most of the time you are lucky to get $2.5-$3.5k for teaching a course, at least that's been my experience.

Local community colleges near me pay about $3800 to teach one 5 credit class per quarter.  Figuring in time grading and planning, I calculate it's about $20/hour, not bad for a part time job that keeps you marginally busy for ten weeks per year, but much less than I could make with my PhD elsewhere.  Plus you get other perks like access to the school gym, a little intellectual simulation, a chance to give back to your community and especially your community's disadvantages students, exposure to young people so you can stay hip with the lingo, and tuition discounts for your own kids.

I've considered it as a part time FIRE gig, not so much for the money but for something to do.  I like teaching, and my current (about to be over) job has consistently punished me for giving guest lectures or sitting on thesis committees, because those things are "not included in my performance rubrik" and therefore detract from my assigned duties.

[lbmustache]

Business degrees are a very different beast, unlike normal academic degrees.  They expect you to pay, and what you are buying is prestige and connections.  The textbook learning you do is sort of secondary, and you can absolutely get all of it for free online.

All of the MBAs I know said that most of their peers really focused on the "connections" side, attending all of the fancy parties and refining their name dropping technique. Getting a degree from an online program would seem to undermine this entire point.  You're there to join the global elite, not do homework sets.

My advice: if you genuinely love learning, then go learn.  You don't need a transcript or a diploma to certify your accomplishments, if you accomplish them because you truly desire the struggle and achievement for personal reasons.  Fancy degrees are for people who value fancy degrees, not for people who love to learn.

-sol, PhD '08

I concur

-OurTown, Ph.D. '00

P.S.  Also, I discovered it won't necessarily make you any money.

-OurTown, J.D. '09

+1 with a PhD '04.

You should also look at the reality of the community college hiring situation. There is a huge reliance on adjunct faculty at community colleges. Adjunct is shorthand for low pay, long hours, no job security. The salaries for tenured faculty may or may not be representative of the situation you would actually find yourself in. YMMV.

Part time PhDs who finish a substantive research project and get their gold stars are somewhat unicorns. I have known only a few that actually finished. I have met lots of people who are still "working on it."

Yeah Adjuncting almost isn't worth it unless you are extremely passionate about teaching. Most of the time you are lucky to get $2.5-$3.5k for teaching a course, at least that's been my experience.

You can "hack" adjuncting to be beneficial for yourself. I earn approx $60k a year adjuncting year round. I work 5 days a week at approx 18 hours a week during spring and fall, and 3 days a week at approx 18 hours a week in the summer and winter.

The major cons are commuting sucks, the *initial* prep time to get started is huge (but once you have your courses put together, it's very little time to put everything together semester to semester), very little job security (depends on your union), no benefits like PTO or health insurance. You also have to get used to the idea that you're not seen as particularly useful to your department, although some are better at adjunct inclusion than others. Students can be frustrating at times and sometimes it feels like you have to teach to the lowest common denominator (community college, not university).

The major pro is flexibility with time. If I teach 6 classes (at 3 hours each), I only "work" 18 hours a week. Of course add commuting (I don't teach at schools more than 20mi away*, and try to avoid teaching around rush hour times) and grading BUT if you are clever with your time, grading can be an non-issue. (For example, I grade while my students take exams, or I grade in between classes, which means I have very little take-home grading). You can pick what days and times you work (easier to navigate childcare or other life situations). You generally earn a pretty high hourly salary (I average about $70/hr). You don't really have to interact with co-workers. I don't teach online, but that's always an option. 

Adjuncting is not amazing, but it's not terrible. I think the perfect adjunct is someone who is FIRE and just doing it for fun or for a little side income.

Please be financially prudent (and realistic) if you take this route! Those articles where adjuncts are earning $18/hr (what?!), living out of their cars, hoping to get a full-time job that will never materialize... don't be that person. I think a lot of people get "stuck" in academia and see no other options. I would absolutely NOT adjunct if I was earning less than $50/hr, minimum.

*I live in Southern California so there are colleges in almost every city. YMMV in other parts of the country.

[mizzourah2006]

Yeah Adjuncting almost isn't worth it unless you are extremely passionate about teaching. Most of the time you are lucky to get $2.5-$3.5k for teaching a course, at least that's been my experience.

You can "hack" adjuncting to be beneficial for yourself. I earn approx $60k a year adjuncting year round. I work 5 days a week at approx 18 hours a week during spring and fall, and 3 days a week at approx 18 hours a week in the summer and winter.

The major cons are commuting sucks, the *initial* prep time to get started is huge (but once you have your courses put together, it's very little time to put everything together semester to semester), very little job security (depends on your union), no benefits like PTO or health insurance. You also have to get used to the idea that you're not seen as particularly useful to your department, although some are better at adjunct inclusion than others. Students can be frustrating at times and sometimes it feels like you have to teach to the lowest common denominator (community college, not university).

The major pro is flexibility with time. If I teach 6 classes (at 3 hours each), I only "work" 18 hours a week. Of course add commuting (I don't teach at schools more than 20mi away*, and try to avoid teaching around rush hour times) and grading BUT if you are clever with your time, grading can be an non-issue. (For example, I grade while my students take exams, or I grade in between classes, which means I have very little take-home grading). You can pick what days and times you work (easier to navigate childcare or other life situations). You generally earn a pretty high hourly salary (I average about $70/hr). You don't really have to interact with co-workers. I don't teach online, but that's always an option. 

Adjuncting is not amazing, but it's not terrible. I think the perfect adjunct is someone who is FIRE and just doing it for fun or for a little side income.

Please be financially prudent (and realistic) if you take this route! Those articles where adjuncts are earning $18/hr (what?!), living out of their cars, hoping to get a full-time job that will never materialize... don't be that person. I think a lot of people get "stuck" in academia and see no other options. I would absolutely NOT adjunct if I was earning less than $50/hr, minimum.

*I live in Southern California so there are colleges in almost every city. YMMV in other parts of the country.

Yeah, I've never adjuncted a class more than once, so to me the initial prep time was always a huge hurdle. I've also yet to teach a class in my true areas of expertise, so all my courses have required a bit more prep time to ensure I'm up to date on the specific area. Also, my experience with UGs has been very little wanting to learn and a lot of wanting to find out how to get an A. Pretty disheartening when you try to integrate relevant applied discussions, etc.

[clarkfan1979]

A side note, not directly answering the OP:

While you can teach at a community college (or even a 4 year school) without a PhD, it'll only ever be part-time, and not enough to live on.  The window for full-time professors without PhDs closed a long time ago at 4-year schools, and it's closing at community colleges too.

I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology and currently teach full-time at a community college. Yes, some of my full-time co-workers only have a MA degree. However, they were hired 25 years ago.

My Ph.D. was 7 years full-time and another 4 years part-time finishing my dissertation. A 3 year Ph.D., part-time? This is absolute garbage and will not be considered a legitimate education for academic positions.

[mizzourah2006]

A side note, not directly answering the OP:

While you can teach at a community college (or even a 4 year school) without a PhD, it'll only ever be part-time, and not enough to live on.  The window for full-time professors without PhDs closed a long time ago at 4-year schools, and it's closing at community colleges too.

I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology and currently teach full-time at a community college. Yes, some of my full-time co-workers only have a MA degree. However, they were hired 25 years ago.

My Ph.D. was 7 years full-time and another 4 years part-time finishing my dissertation. A 3 year Ph.D., part-time? This is absolute garbage and will not be considered a legitimate education for academic positions.

I’ve been hearing a lot of this lately where it takes people 8-10 years to finish. That’s crazy to me. In our program they actually forced you to start re-taking coursework after 7 years and coursework itself was only 3 full years with probably another semester’s worth of courses scattered throughout your fourth year after comps. That means that for me to get to 9 years I would have to be working on my dissertation for 5 years alone. I got a full-time job before I proposed my dissertation, didn’t spend nearly as much time as I should have on it in my free time and it only took me 1.5 years to finish, so 5.5 years total. I don’t understand why faculty and programs would let people drag it out for that long.

[sol]

I don’t understand why faculty and programs would let people drag it out for that long.

Sometimes you don't have a choice in the matter.  One of my friends spent his first four years in graduate school designing and building an instrument for a NASA mission that blew up on the launch pad.  He never got a single piece of data.

Several people I knew in graduate school, mostly in the biological sciences, were scooped.  They spent years in the lab collecting data, but withthheld publication while they chased down some loose ends, and then someone else published nearly identical work first and their work was worthless.  In some cases, the loose ends they were chasing down were pointed out by the very people who ended up scooping them (apparently in an effort to slow them down).

And one guy I knew was in a horrific motorcycle accident and broke both of his arms in the middle of the labwork portion of his degree.  It's hard to do science with no arms, much less write a thesis.