Author Topic: Paying the price for others mistakes?  (Read 19191 times)

Gumption

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Paying the price for others mistakes?
« on: August 16, 2017, 09:42:15 AM »
How would you deal with a parent or in-law who's getting up there in age (67+) who's in terrible financial shape?

It takes years of focused hard work and planning to save money let alone become FIRE.
To go through all these years while watching loved ones consistently make poor financial decisions can be tough because we can read the writing on the wall when perhaps they cannot.

This has happened to me with my father in law. We have tried for years (10 or so) to pop hints here and there, even at times asking the harder questions sometimes like, "what does your retirement or long term plan look like?" All these attempts are met with chronic obfuscation.

He has social security, so there is that. I do not feel that he would be homeless, and I would certainly step in before that to help. Certainly, his lack of funds will significantly limit his options in the future though. On his last visit, there were not so subtle hints of moving closer, or in fact, moving in with us. To this, we both are firmly in the "heck no" category.

We all make our decisions in life on how to lead it. Should I be obligated to work more years, delay FI in order to make up for his misdeeds?

Last Night

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 09:55:12 AM »
No one here can answer that question for you.

Obviously from a common sense perspective he made his own bed, you helping him won't change him, and he will be an extra liability.

On the flipside, he is family and I'd be more interested to know how your SO feels about it more than anything else.  If she is ok with not helping him, then you do what you have to do.

For me personally I'd help immediate family.

Zikoris

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 09:59:37 AM »
I'd offer to help them make a budget, and research assistance programs they could apply for. That would be about it.

fluffmuffin

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 10:06:11 AM »
No real advice, just commiseration and solidarity. It's a little different for me since my dad is the financial liability; my future in-laws are fine, thank God, so that removes the additional layer of complexity that you're facing. Like you, though, I've been telling my dad to get his finances in shape for at least 10 years. I've given him advice. I've sent him resources. I've nagged him into meeting with a financial planner. None of it made any difference. Maybe I'm a horrible daughter, but I figure he made his bed, and is going to have to lie in it.

And there is no universe where my father will live in my home, since we already have a strained relationship with my self-imposed two-hour minimum radius of drive time. I've told him the changes that would have to be made for us to have a closer relationship (basically "stop being such a giant flaming racist and misogynist who thinks the Charlottesville protesters had some reasonable points, oh and also maybe try respecting me as an autonomous human being. No, you really do not to ask your future son-in-law questions like 'do you LET her do that?' and think I'm going to want to spend time with you"). He has not chosen to make them and can live with the consequences.

He has social security, Medicare, my late stepmother's pension of $30k/year, and an RV. A human being can survive under those conditions. He also has significant property that he could sell for a rock-bottom price of $400,000, which would clear the mortgage and all his debts, and still leave him with a solid nest egg. But he won't consider selling it for less than top dollar, which he's never going to get. So my already-minimal sympathy is nil.

I've decided that I will offer limited financial assistance, in the form of e.g. Kroger gift cards or utility payments made directly to the company, if it were a truly dire situation where he was facing hunger or homelessness; and that I would help him if he proactively came to me to ask for help with budgeting, or with locating services. Other than that, I just can't get financially involved. It's not responsible for my future self or my future children.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2017, 10:17:50 AM »
He has social security, Medicare, my late stepmother's pension of $30k/year, and an RV. A human being can survive under those conditions. He also has significant property that he could sell for a rock-bottom price of $400,000, which would clear the mortgage and all his debts, and still leave him with a solid nest egg. But he won't consider selling it for less than top dollar, which he's never going to get. So my already-minimal sympathy is nil.

No, indeed, there is no reason to financially help someone who has a basic income and is sitting on a valuable property.
But also, if a person has an income, but has managed to deliberately builds up more debt than they can ever pay off (like mentioned in a thread by Playing with Fire), then should you really help your parents or inlaws? Especially if you have offered to help them by budgetting, changing lifestyle or downsizing? It is there choice. They can always continue to work for many more years, or they could try to file bankrupcy. If a child would help them out they would likely just continue their lifestyle and the child enables it. This is a good reason to not do it.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2017, 10:25:49 AM »
My parents hinted at one point that they were thinking selling the house and moving in with us and I pretty much laughed and brushed it off. Yeah, that's not going to happen. There's social security and my father's pension from work that they can live off of.

I know it can be tough when you care about someone, but one of the things I've learned as I've achieved greater success is that you have to take care of your own needs first. You work hard and you deserve to reap the rewards. Someone else screws up their life, then it's their own problem. We have a social safety net for problems like that.

I hate to be harsh, but why should you pay the price for someone else's terrible decisions? They got to have their fun and then it will be time to pay the piper. It's their choice and they made it willingly.

Sibley

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 08:42:03 AM »
My parents don't really know it yet, but they will be selling their house, getting rid of at least 50% of their stuff, and moving into a small apt nearish to me. They will also declare bankruptcy if the house doesn't sell for enough to wipe out debts.

They will live on SS and a small pension of my dad's, around $500 a month.

None of this is going to go over well, but when you make poor financial decisions for decades, this is the predictable result. Mom says she's not "comfortable" not owning her home. Too bad. She "can't get rid of" furniture and other items that belonged to family members. Not my problem (for that one, I'm staying out of it. It'll be, here's what you've got to work with, let me know what you need help with).

Laura33

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 09:21:10 AM »
First, I'm sorry.

What you can do?  Well, first, don't expect to change him -- it's the old joke about the psychiatrists and the lightbulb, where it just takes one, but the bulb really has to want to change.  I had an interesting situation with my dad, the spendthrift, probably 20 years ago, where I was talking about my own retirement plans and savings (and probably bitching about it).  And the next time we got together, he starts telling me that he was impressed that I was so focused on this at like 30, and that he realized since he was 50 maybe he should start thinking about it, so he set up this appointment with a financial advisor -- and then he whipped out this binder of all of this stuff that he had worked through.  Totally unexpected yay!  But it worked only because my comments triggered a realization in him that he needed to act for himself. 

I think you can do two things now and one thing later:

1.  Figure out with your SO what you are willing to do to meet your emotional obligations to him.  To translate that directly, I mean "what does your spouse think s/he needs to do to avoid feeling guilty for the rest of his/her life?"  Talk, discuss, work out a compromise that you can both live with.

2.  Let your FIL know, very clearly, what is NOT going to happen -- give him the opportunity to plan for himself as best as he is able.  E.g., it may be just fine for him to move closer (that might actually help once he starts failing and needs caregiving help), but not into your house. 

3.  If/when he does whine/complain/passively-aggressively hint for help, offer empathy and resources, but do not let him make you feel like his problems are yours (or, more specifically, your spouse's).  E.g., "wow, that sounds tough -- so what are you going to do about it?  What's your plan?"  Develop a list of local resources that he can call on.  Point him to assistance programs and help him fill out applications.  Etc.  The point is to make it clear to both of you that you care about him and what happens to him, that you cannot solve his problems for him, but that you are willing to do whatever you can to help him help himself.

FireHiker

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 09:30:49 AM »
This is one that actually keeps me up at night, except in my case it is my mother, where my childhood was spent with verbal abuse and actual homelessness. She is currently living with her sister, but I know it can't last forever. She has been entirely resistant to any suggestions or offers of help to do things differently, and she is enabling my youngest sibling (34, no job, living on the couch at my aunt's house I guess?). I have long since realized that nothing I say or do will cause her to change. She is in full on "victim" mode and doesn't appear to ever be willing to change that. She drives me insane when I have to spend more than five minutes with her, and there is zero chance we could live under the same roof and stay sane (well, I couldn't). I don't know how things will turn out. She doesn't ask for money because she knows if she did that would give me license to look into her finances. For several years she was spending hundreds of dollars every month (sometimes over $1000, while only bringing in $1900/mo with social security and a small pension) on crap from ebay, while she was living rent free off the kindness of a friend. This went on for five years, and when her friend finally requested (well below market value) rent, she went and moved in with her sister.

My husband and I are on the same page and unwilling to help her since she is unwilling to help herself. It's definitely complicated by the fact that I don't have a positive relationship with her, and have a huge amount of resentment for my childhood. She is one of those people who would benefit from the Dave Ramsey approach (starting there is better than nowhere) but when I offered to pay for her to take the course she declined.

Sorry I have no answers, just commiseration.

Livingthedream55

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 09:52:03 AM »

He has social security, so there is that. I do not feel that he would be homeless,
That's good.

I think as long as a grown ass adult has shelter, adequate food and medical care then you bear no responsibility to rescue someone from years of selfish and immature choices.  He may need someday to live in a modest environment (like a rooming house) and get food assistance, etc. but as long as his basic needs are met I would not take anything additional on.

We all make our decisions in life on how to lead it. Should I be obligated to work more years, delay FI in order to make up for his misdeeds?


Hell, no!

Gumption

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 10:16:16 AM »
Thanks for your responses. I know this would ring true with some folks out there.
I think Laura33's outline is a very good guideline to follow.

It's a complicated relationship and I think even with the resentment over how he has handled his life, it's impossible to get away without feeling some guilt. But yes, it is a matter of what you are willing to deal with emotionally as well as financially.

We also ask ourselves, would we do this to our kids when we are old? Would we demand from our kids to be obliged in  taking over the financial, emotional, and physical burden of us in old age? That would make me feel terrible and this is part of why I am making sacrifices now to have our house in order. We all have our responsibilities in relationships.

We have let him know a few things: 1) When visiting, it can be for 4 days max. 2) You cant move in with us. 3) Its your life. I may not approve of how you are leading it, but these are your decisions to make.

Financially, We have decided that if it keeps him from being homeless, we will do what we can to offer assistance. This will be at a bare minimum as far as money as we have our our lives and kids to care for.

It seems very harsh to even be writing this; but, it has been a long a hard road in dealing with him already. As long as he has access to our train, hes going to keep riding it and refuse to take a look at himself, his decisions, and his impact on others.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 11:04:48 AM »
As an accountant, I can attest to the fact that there are many retired people who live off social security/medicare. They may supplement with social services assistance or a meager pension. They work for as long as possible until age or disability forces retirement and then they are poor.

If you want to help such a parent, that's a nice thing to do, but if you choose not to, the parent will subsist. That's what social security is for. It's a safety net.

Between free/subsidized healthcare via medicare, social security, and services/benefits available to low-income retired people, the parent will likely be able to live a $20,000-$30,000 a year lifestyle (depending on how much their social security is). It will be essentially tax free. As we know from this forum, it may be difficult, but it is certainly possible to have a comfortable life with that kind of income.

If anything, I believe that help should come from you in the form of researching social services and benefits that might be available to the parent, including things like housing, food, utility, property tax assistance, and with helping them apply. It probably shouldn't come via direct financial assistance from you, unless we're talking about things like paying for a cheap cell phone plan or something similar.

Duke03

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 11:10:15 AM »
When it comes to relatives I live by the motto that they had their entire life to get their crap straight and prepare for retirement.  I'll be damned if my kids go without something so I can take care of a grown ass person that refused to take care of themselves all their life. My mom squandered untold amounts of money her entire life and now she survives on social security.  It's amazing what a person can survive on when they are forced to do something.  My wife knows it's the same deal for her parents.  It's a no bullshit deal with me and I'd divorce my wife if it ever came to me having to support or house her parents and it took away from my children.

Sibley

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 11:52:47 AM »
When it comes to relatives I live by the motto that they had their entire life to get their crap straight and prepare for retirement.  I'll be damned if my kids go without something so I can take care of a grown ass person that refused to take care of themselves all their life. My mom squandered untold amounts of money her entire life and now she survives on social security.  It's amazing what a person can survive on when they are forced to do something.  My wife knows it's the same deal for her parents.  It's a no bullshit deal with me and I'd divorce my wife if it ever came to me having to support or house her parents and it took away from my children.

Serious illness/disability can change things a lot. Dementia even more. I am, and will continue to be, involved in my parents finances. I have to be - dad has dementia, mom isn't reliable about reviewing financial transactions, and there have been problems with dad buying crap. Eventually, I will assume full control of their finances - it's not if, it's when. Yes, my parents have made plenty of poor decisions, but I will step in and ensure that they're ok.

Also, you might want to reexamine your relationship with your wife.

MsSindy

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 12:11:44 PM »
Gumption - You shouldn't feel guilty.  Guilt is when YOU do something you feel is wrong.  You can feel bad/sad for him, but there should be no guilt, as you guys played no part in his unpreparedness.

That being said, I believe we have a moral obligation to ensure (as best we can) that  our parents have a roof over their heads and food to eat - now, to what level of comfort, is entirely up to you.  This could mean they rent a room in a house and get food from a food bank, or it could mean that you provide assistance.  Also, if there is a strained relationship due to abuse, addiction, or manipulation, etc., then all this doesn't apply, and you can do whatever you want (with no guilt).

I think the important thing is that you and your wife are in agreement in advance of what is about to come your way.... and hold to it.

The Fake Cheap

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 05:16:51 PM »
How would you deal with a parent or in-law who's getting up there in age (67+) who's in terrible financial shape?

It takes years of focused hard work and planning to save money let alone become FIRE.
To go through all these years while watching loved ones consistently make poor financial decisions can be tough because we can read the writing on the wall when perhaps they cannot.

This has happened to me with my father in law. We have tried for years (10 or so) to pop hints here and there, even at times asking the harder questions sometimes like, "what does your retirement or long term plan look like?" All these attempts are met with chronic obfuscation.

He has social security, so there is that. I do not feel that he would be homeless, and I would certainly step in before that to help. Certainly, his lack of funds will significantly limit his options in the future though. On his last visit, there were not so subtle hints of moving closer, or in fact, moving in with us. To this, we both are firmly in the "heck no" category.

We all make our decisions in life on how to lead it. Should I be obligated to work more years, delay FI in order to make up for his misdeeds?

I'm with you on this.  My dad's plan is to die.  He is over 70 still working at a crappy job, made terrible financial decisions over his whole life.  He does have a good pension, and could retire comfortably on this...if he were to declare bankruptcy..soooo much debt.  Anyway, if he is unable to continue working there are going to be MASSSIVE changes in his lifestyle (and my moms) that he won't agree with, but will be necessary.  Him and my mom are also hoarders...not tv show hoarders bad, but bad.  I would only be willing to provide minimal financial support, and would only agree to them living Very temporarily with me.  We have tried to set them straight over the years but no luck.  They are very good people, so there is that I guess. 

FireLane

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2017, 01:19:35 PM »
I've told this story in my journal before, but:

My in-laws inherited a chunk of cash and some property from a rich uncle, plus they own a house on Long Island that they bought back when it was cheap. They'd be wealthy if they had any financial sense. Instead, they frittered most of it away over a lifetime of frivolous spending.

The cherry on top was a few years ago when they went through a bitter, expensive divorce. They blew tens of thousands of dollars on lawyer fees, only to end up with the mostly even split that Mrs. FL told them both they should have agreed to from the beginning.

For the first few years after the divorce, they both struggled with routine bills and asked us to lend them money. At one point, FIL asked for an $8000 loan, which is crazypants. It was rough on Mrs. FL. She didn't want to leave her parents in the lurch, but she also didn't want to be a doormat, not to mention we were saving up for a baby at the time.

We agreed to give them each one small loan. Each of them still owes us money, but it's money we can afford to give away, so it's no hardship if we never see it again. Their financial situations seem to have stabilized for now, so hopefully that's the end of that, but if they come back to us in the future, we'll have solid grounds for turning them down.

CheapScholar

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2017, 01:31:27 PM »
I moved to a different state.  Problem solved.  Hey, gotta look out for number 1.

wenchsenior

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 01:45:15 PM »
Agree with Laura33's points.  We've had a bunch of threads about this over the years, and everyone has to decide what they are willing to do and not willing to do, based on their individual situation.

We have a situation where both mothers were destitute, with incomes of about 1000$ per month and no property of any kind.  One was willing to be totally financially open, move across the country, and be cooperative in how she lived.  The other was stubborn and secretive.  The cooperative one, we moved her across the country, bought a second house and moved her into it, gave her our old car, and paid all her utilities/monthly bills until about 5 years later when she got a small inheritance and was able to take over some of the bills.  The secretive one, we have budgeted approximately 2K/year for the inevitable emergency requests for money.

Two different answers for two different situations. It costs us approximately 7-10K additional per year, but it keeps us from feeling too guilty and shitty.  Other people than us, would just let the parents live super poor, and not feel as guilty.  Still others might help excessively in other ways than money.

You have to examine the situation for specifics: some states have very good support programs for poor elderly, others have almost nothing.  Some people can be relied upon to not spend stupidly when you give them cash support. Others cannot be.

There's no right answer, I don't think.

Imma

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2017, 03:19:04 PM »
It's a difficult question. My s/o and I both have strained relationships with our (both divorced) parents and none are doing too well financially. Two out of four have requested financial support before when we were very young and not really able to stand up for ourselves yet. In both cases the problem wasn't on the income but on the spending side. They were making only a modest income, but enough to live on. We made about half and were still able to save a significant sum every month and support them.

We are not or barely in touch with some of our parents due to all sorts of childhood issues which means they haven't asked us for financial support in recent years, but I fear at some point it will happen again. Only one of our parents is retired yet but that parent is for now mostly dependent on another kid. In the next five years they will all retire and I'm only sure that one parent will manage after retirement.

We don't want any of our parents homeless or going without food, even the ones we have difficult relationships with, but we also don't believe in giving help without knowing what's going on. I'm not going to hand out random cash. As most of our parents are very secretive, I'm not sure how that's going to work out. Another difficult thing is that our parents have certain luxuries that they can't afford. I know one of our parents received a car as a gift from another kid that I suspect also pays for the upkeep. They live in an area with high quality public traffic so there's no need for a car. We don't even own a car ourselves. If this one breaks down I can see the parent ask us for another car because "it's our turn" and we're not going to give it. We don't feel like we owe it just because another sibling feels like that. On the other hand, I understand that sibling isn't keen on paying for another car, but that's not our responsibility.

We don't really feel we owe our parents specifically because they are our parents. They didn't parent us very well. But we do believe that as human beings in a good financial situation, we should share our wealth with people who are less wealthy. We have given food, money and shelter to non-relatives who needed it. It's the family dynamic that makes the decision making surrounding parents more complicated. We do always make sure that the final decision is made by the child of the parent and not the child in law. I might ask my s/o for his opinion and he can give it freely, but I'm the one who makes the decision because I have to live with myself.

Mr Mark

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 04:05:13 AM »
Watch out for so-called "filial responsibility laws" https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/broke-parents-medical-debts/ 

They vary state by state and seem not usually enforced, but as the population of old people dependent on the Government or State for support grows, and with politicians looking to claw back entitlements, there has to be a chance that could change in future. The courts may not look kindly on your huge 'stash when taxpayers are paying for your parents' long term care.

Lmoot

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2017, 04:25:04 AM »
 It's so funny to read all the different responses when this question comes up. My parents are responsible with money, and they were/are good parents. I think the health of the relationship also helps determine how much offspring are willing to help. In my family, both sides, we move the old folks in with us. Everyone from my great great grandparents, lived and died at home with family. So it's kind of been ingrained in myself and my siblings that should anything happen to our parents, whether financially or physically, they will be living with us, no hesitation.

 I'm saying this, not to judge, but just to kind of think out loud that a lot of the situations where there is more hesitation to help/move a parent in to the house, there is an unhealthy relationship, difficult childhood, or just frustration with bad financial habits of the parent. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to make that decision when you feel ambivalent about a parent. I can completely see why the decision wouldn't be so clear, if that person didn't do much for you, and or themselves. If they didn't care enough then, why should you care now? I totally get it. But it still makes me sad, for all parties involved.

frugalecon

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2017, 07:01:07 AM »
I have struggled with this, not in relation to family, but rather a person who had been a friend. I think that the most important thing is to really reflect on what you are comfortable doing to help, and then stick to it, rather than being continually responding. In my experience with this person, he had no interest in any information or advice. He wanted the freedom to continue pursuing behavior that had landed him in the trouble he was in. I ultimately decided I was not willing to provide more resources to grant that freedom.

MishMash

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2017, 03:51:48 PM »
I'm living this nightmare RIGHT NOW.  As in Friday we drive from VA to CA to pick up my father in law, his non housetrained epileptic dog, and his storage locker of SHIT (not enough time to sell it there since FIL won't do it), and move him in with us in our 1200 sq ft house.  I AM LIVID. 

The only reason this is occurring is because he went through a divorce from his trophy wife of 20 years, who cleaned him out pretty well (and considering how high of an income earner he was he should have had A LOT more) and he has completely failed to adult for the last two years. He's basically bed ridden, complaining that his back is a problem and he can't walk.  Except the MRI showed that not to be the case, the CT of his head showed it's not a brain tumor (personality changes as well).  All his blood work has come back fine as well.  So, at this stage we think it's extreme mental illness and depression due to him not taking his prescribed meds.

DH, despite this man not ever being there for him, and him always being a general shitbag, feels obligated to try and get him back on his feet, and refuses to put him in an assisted living facility.  There are 4 other siblings who have refused to lift a finger (in fairness 2 of them are to young to do much). 

He's already said DH gets nothing if anything is left in his will, it's going to his two half brothers.  There won't be anything left, he's going to end up in a home, I have no doubt.  I'm not sure if I'm more pissed at his ex stepmother for bailing when things started getting rough health wise (she hadn't worked for their entire 20 year marriage and is 18 years younger), his dad for not adulting, or my husband for his twisted sense of obligation at the cost of all else.

Oh did I mention FIL has been living off of credit cards these past two years and hasn't paid a dime towards them despite having 2500 a month in SS income and probably around 300k in IRAs.  The estimate he gave is 80k in debt...I think it's higher.


CheapScholar

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2017, 06:16:12 PM »
I'm living this nightmare RIGHT NOW.  As in Friday we drive from VA to CA to pick up my father in law, his non housetrained epileptic dog, and his storage locker of SHIT (not enough time to sell it there since FIL won't do it), and move him in with us in our 1200 sq ft house.  I AM LIVID. 

The only reason this is occurring is because he went through a divorce from his trophy wife of 20 years, who cleaned him out pretty well (and considering how high of an income earner he was he should have had A LOT more) and he has completely failed to adult for the last two years. He's basically bed ridden, complaining that his back is a problem and he can't walk.  Except the MRI showed that not to be the case, the CT of his head showed it's not a brain tumor (personality changes as well).  All his blood work has come back fine as well.  So, at this stage we think it's extreme mental illness and depression due to him not taking his prescribed meds.

DH, despite this man not ever being there for him, and him always being a general shitbag, feels obligated to try and get him back on his feet, and refuses to put him in an assisted living facility.  There are 4 other siblings who have refused to lift a finger (in fairness 2 of them are to young to do much). 

He's already said DH gets nothing if anything is left in his will, it's going to his two half brothers.  There won't be anything left, he's going to end up in a home, I have no doubt.  I'm not sure if I'm more pissed at his ex stepmother for bailing when things started getting rough health wise (she hadn't worked for their entire 20 year marriage and is 18 years younger), his dad for not adulting, or my husband for his twisted sense of obligation at the cost of all else.

Oh did I mention FIL has been living off of credit cards these past two years and hasn't paid a dime towards them despite having 2500 a month in SS income and probably around 300k in IRAs.  The estimate he gave is 80k in debt...I think it's higher.

Dude...


Dude...

Don't know what else to say...

GreenSheep

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2017, 09:06:30 AM »
I'm living this nightmare RIGHT NOW.  As in Friday we drive from VA to CA to pick up my father in law, his non housetrained epileptic dog, and his storage locker of SHIT (not enough time to sell it there since FIL won't do it), and move him in with us in our 1200 sq ft house.  I AM LIVID. 

The only reason this is occurring is because he went through a divorce from his trophy wife of 20 years, who cleaned him out pretty well (and considering how high of an income earner he was he should have had A LOT more) and he has completely failed to adult for the last two years. He's basically bed ridden, complaining that his back is a problem and he can't walk.  Except the MRI showed that not to be the case, the CT of his head showed it's not a brain tumor (personality changes as well).  All his blood work has come back fine as well.  So, at this stage we think it's extreme mental illness and depression due to him not taking his prescribed meds.

DH, despite this man not ever being there for him, and him always being a general shitbag, feels obligated to try and get him back on his feet, and refuses to put him in an assisted living facility.  There are 4 other siblings who have refused to lift a finger (in fairness 2 of them are to young to do much). 

He's already said DH gets nothing if anything is left in his will, it's going to his two half brothers.  There won't be anything left, he's going to end up in a home, I have no doubt.  I'm not sure if I'm more pissed at his ex stepmother for bailing when things started getting rough health wise (she hadn't worked for their entire 20 year marriage and is 18 years younger), his dad for not adulting, or my husband for his twisted sense of obligation at the cost of all else.

Oh did I mention FIL has been living off of credit cards these past two years and hasn't paid a dime towards them despite having 2500 a month in SS income and probably around 300k in IRAs.  The estimate he gave is 80k in debt...I think it's higher.


I did/do not take my marriage vows lightly at all, but this would have me very, very seriously considering divorce. Good luck to you.

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2017, 09:16:07 AM »
Appreciate all the responses. I would imagine this thread is helpful to quite a few. A few points I've been pondering:

1. With the insanely low savings rate that most folks have, I don't see how a financially irresponsible parent wouldn't impact other family members later in life...if not financially, emotionally.

2. It is almost impossible to escape feeling some guilt at some level. Even if we do not have the ideal childhood or parents, there is still an innate desire to have an ideal childhood and parent. It's a bit hard, barring some obvious circumstances, to completely unplug emotionally from those you were born from. To see them get older and more needy is difficult. To cut the cord while this is happening ain't much easier.

3. Should my support of them be based on how I choose to evaluate how they were as a parent? as an adult? as a human? In short, when it comes to matters of money, we all make choices, we all have different values. For me and my life, it has been critical to save money and invest in my future beyond work. I don't want to be a burden on anyone. In this case, my FIL has obviously had different values and has acted upon them accordingly...that has been his choice. If he happened to be the greatest FIL of all time, should I do anything differently? I think not.

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2017, 09:19:16 AM »
I'm living this nightmare RIGHT NOW.  As in Friday we drive from VA to CA to pick up my father in law, his non housetrained epileptic dog, and his storage locker of SHIT (not enough time to sell it there since FIL won't do it), and move him in with us in our 1200 sq ft house.  I AM LIVID. 

The only reason this is occurring is because he went through a divorce from his trophy wife of 20 years, who cleaned him out pretty well (and considering how high of an income earner he was he should have had A LOT more) and he has completely failed to adult for the last two years. He's basically bed ridden, complaining that his back is a problem and he can't walk.  Except the MRI showed that not to be the case, the CT of his head showed it's not a brain tumor (personality changes as well).  All his blood work has come back fine as well.  So, at this stage we think it's extreme mental illness and depression due to him not taking his prescribed meds.

DH, despite this man not ever being there for him, and him always being a general shitbag, feels obligated to try and get him back on his feet, and refuses to put him in an assisted living facility.  There are 4 other siblings who have refused to lift a finger (in fairness 2 of them are to young to do much). 

He's already said DH gets nothing if anything is left in his will, it's going to his two half brothers.  There won't be anything left, he's going to end up in a home, I have no doubt.  I'm not sure if I'm more pissed at his ex stepmother for bailing when things started getting rough health wise (she hadn't worked for their entire 20 year marriage and is 18 years younger), his dad for not adulting, or my husband for his twisted sense of obligation at the cost of all else.

Oh did I mention FIL has been living off of credit cards these past two years and hasn't paid a dime towards them despite having 2500 a month in SS income and probably around 300k in IRAs.  The estimate he gave is 80k in debt...I think it's higher.


I did/do not take my marriage vows lightly at all, but this would have me very, very seriously considering divorce. Good luck to you.

So, are you moving the FIL in with you without your agreement???  or did you get brow-beaten into accepting this?  We have a rule in our marriage that nothing major gets bought or actions taken upon unless we are both in agreement.  If one says  no, then it's a 'no'.   I can't imagine my DH doing this, but if he did (and I wasn't in agreement), I would be telling him that he shouldn't bother coming back.  Your responsibility to your vows come first.

So sorry that you're going through this - very stressful on all accounts...

MsSindy

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 09:29:01 AM »
Appreciate all the responses. I would imagine this thread is helpful to quite a few. A few points I've been pondering:

1. With the insanely low savings rate that most folks have, ....

2. It is almost impossible to escape feeling some guilt at some level. Even if we do not have the ideal childhood or parents, there is still an innate desire to have an ideal childhood and parent. ......

3. Should my support of them be based on how I choose to evaluate how they were as a parent? as an adult? as a human? ...... I think not.

1) Yes, it probably will.  If not financially, def emotionally.
2) Meh.  It depends how you've made peace with your upbringing.  My dad was never abusive, but he was just never around, and provided no support to my mom for us kids (5 of us!!).  I've made peace with this.  I do not long for a 'daddy' any longer, but it took a while to mature into this attitude.  I recognize him for the autonomous adult that he is and accept that he has major flaws and was never suppose to be a father.
3)  I think so.  My mom supported 5 kids and did the best she could to provide a decent life for us.  She wasn't perfect, had her flaws, but damn if she didn't try!  She was just a good person overall.  When she got ill, we had planned to move her into our house (but she passed suddenly).  Dad was not a good father and kind of a shit as a human being (self-centered), so no, I will not be moving him into my house or providing any financial support.  I still talk to him a couple times a year, but that is as far as the relationship goes.  I'd rather save my money and emotions for the good people in my life.

LiveLean

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 09:37:10 AM »
This thread, and similar ones previously, scares the hell out of me.

My long-widowed father is a model of MMM living. He's 78, not in the greatest health, but has made it clear that when the time comes he's to have 24-hour care at his very lovely condo. He will be able to afford it indefinitely, even if he somehow makes it to 110.

In-laws are both 70, never saved a dime despite high incomes, living off SS while health going south in large part due to continuing to eat and drink like college kids. They live 10 minutes from SIL and family, who likewise have high incomes but don't save anything. So I know when the time comes in-laws are suddenly going to be interested in spending regular time (i.e. living with) DW and family 500 miles away for the first time ever.

MishMash

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 09:38:43 AM »
I'm living this nightmare RIGHT NOW.  As in Friday we drive from VA to CA to pick up my father in law, his non housetrained epileptic dog, and his storage locker of SHIT (not enough time to sell it there since FIL won't do it), and move him in with us in our 1200 sq ft house.  I AM LIVID. 

The only reason this is occurring is because he went through a divorce from his trophy wife of 20 years, who cleaned him out pretty well (and considering how high of an income earner he was he should have had A LOT more) and he has completely failed to adult for the last two years. He's basically bed ridden, complaining that his back is a problem and he can't walk.  Except the MRI showed that not to be the case, the CT of his head showed it's not a brain tumor (personality changes as well).  All his blood work has come back fine as well.  So, at this stage we think it's extreme mental illness and depression due to him not taking his prescribed meds.

DH, despite this man not ever being there for him, and him always being a general shitbag, feels obligated to try and get him back on his feet, and refuses to put him in an assisted living facility.  There are 4 other siblings who have refused to lift a finger (in fairness 2 of them are to young to do much). 

He's already said DH gets nothing if anything is left in his will, it's going to his two half brothers.  There won't be anything left, he's going to end up in a home, I have no doubt.  I'm not sure if I'm more pissed at his ex stepmother for bailing when things started getting rough health wise (she hadn't worked for their entire 20 year marriage and is 18 years younger), his dad for not adulting, or my husband for his twisted sense of obligation at the cost of all else.

Oh did I mention FIL has been living off of credit cards these past two years and hasn't paid a dime towards them despite having 2500 a month in SS income and probably around 300k in IRAs.  The estimate he gave is 80k in debt...I think it's higher.


I did/do not take my marriage vows lightly at all, but this would have me very, very seriously considering divorce. Good luck to you.

So, are you moving the FIL in with you without your agreement???  or did you get brow-beaten into accepting this?  We have a rule in our marriage that nothing major gets bought or actions taken upon unless we are both in agreement.  If one says  no, then it's a 'no'.   I can't imagine my DH doing this, but if he did (and I wasn't in agreement), I would be telling him that he shouldn't bother coming back.  Your responsibility to your vows come first.

So sorry that you're going through this - very stressful on all accounts...

I would vote on the brow beating...DH was like well I don't want him to die alone in his hotel room and have the dog eat his face before someone finds him....literally.   

CheapScholar

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 10:02:04 AM »
MishMash, this situation be cray!

If FIL gets $2,500 per month in SS and has 300K in IRA there's NO REASON you need to take him and his dog into your 1200 sq foot home.  This is easily one of the craziest things I've read in my time on this board. 

You need to help him find an apartment and encourage him to settle his CC debt.  If your husband wants to help this guy, have him over for a meal sometimes.  Most people don't live off the interest on IRAs.  I don't see why he can't live comfortably for a decade+ on SS and his IRA.

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2017, 10:05:29 AM »
MishMash, that sounds awful. If there's no way to keep your FIL from getting into your house at this point, I hope you're able to put up as many boundaries as possible to minimize his impact on your life. I would also recommend getting a counselor, either with your husband or by yourself, to work through this. From an outside perspective, it sure looks like he emotionally bludgeoned you into letting this difficult person coming into your home. I can't see a way that won't have an impact on you and your marriage--and your FIL isn't even in your house yet.

Have you talked to your husband about how long this situation is supposed to last? It doesn't sound like it could possibly be sustainable, and your FIL does have assets at this point that could get him set up in his own place (where your DH can go check on him every day, if he feels so inclined). How about setting some conditions for your FIL continuing to live with you, like taking his medications, seeing a therapist, and getting a referral to PT to work on his back and mobility issues?

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2017, 10:11:39 AM »
Is anyone interested in starting a support group?

My experience:

There is no 4% rule for someone who will always spend more money than they have. Set one financial limit (with your partner) and then let that be it. They will come back for more, and they will keep coming until the stache runs dry or the end of time. There is no amount of money that will fix the problem of someone who always spends what they can.

Get on the same page with your partner, acknowledge that it is hard and sucky and you will feel bad at times and then make decisions together that work for you both.

Giving/lending people money can harm a relationship at the best of times. Our broke irresponsible parents (in-law) are not the best of times. I found it so hurtful to go into my in-law's kitchen and see the food I'd bought for them thrown away, or see them showing off the fancy new clothes they'd bought with the money I gave them for electricity while I sat there in my second-hand jeans. It really damaged the relationship. If the relationship is going to be damaged anyway, you may as well keep the money.

I'd be hesitant about saying "only living with us temporarily". People who are bad with boundaries will not be able to understand or respect this. Draw the line earlier.

It's so funny to read all the different responses when this question comes up. My parents are responsible with money, and they were/are good parents. I think the health of the relationship also helps determine how much offspring are willing to help. In my family, both sides, we move the old folks in with us. Everyone from my great great grandparents, lived and died at home with family. So it's kind of been ingrained in myself and my siblings that should anything happen to our parents, whether financially or physically, they will be living with us, no hesitation.

I'm saying this, not to judge, but just to kind of think out loud that a lot of the situations where there is more hesitation to help/move a parent in to the house, there is an unhealthy relationship, difficult childhood, or just frustration with bad financial habits of the parent. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to make that decision when you feel ambivalent about a parent. I can completely see why the decision wouldn't be so clear, if that person didn't do much for you, and or themselves. If they didn't care enough then, why should you care now? I totally get it. But it still makes me sad, for all parties involved.

I wouldn't have my in-laws live with me because I love them, and do not want to see them murdered, and do not want to go to prison for said murder. There are some relationships that make living together a positive experience, this is not one. We would all be miserable, I would need to move out to not be miserable, and then I would be homeless. I have a level of obligation, but I'm not required to go hungry so they can eat, or lose my home so that they can take it over, or damage my mental health or relationship with my partner to try and salvage a relationship with my in-laws.

partgypsy

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2017, 03:38:11 PM »
My parents don't really know it yet, but they will be selling their house, getting rid of at least 50% of their stuff, and moving into a small apt nearish to me. They will also declare bankruptcy if the house doesn't sell for enough to wipe out debts.

They will live on SS and a small pension of my dad's, around $500 a month.

None of this is going to go over well, but when you make poor financial decisions for decades, this is the predictable result. Mom says she's not "comfortable" not owning her home. Too bad. She "can't get rid of" furniture and other items that belonged to family members. Not my problem (for that one, I'm staying out of it. It'll be, here's what you've got to work with, let me know what you need help with).

Sounds kind of like my Mom, but it will have to be like 75% of her stuff, none of it worth much of anything, and living off of 550 a month. It's gotten so with all the debts, not sure if she will clear much of anything once she sells the house, which she keeps digging her heels in and not selling. Honestly I offered a few years back if she sold the house, she could give me a set amount for me to renovate the attic, I would take attic and she could take master bedroom and bath. A lot cheaper than her maintaining a home or paying rent. But, she also wants to somehow give both my older brother and sister a free place to live, to which I said no. So, I guess they will all be homeless together.

gentmach

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2017, 04:43:31 PM »
I'm glad I found this thread. I was prepared to spend a few thousand to convert a grain bin to general storage so he would stop complaining about a lack of storage.

It is nice to see I am not the only one having issues.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2017, 01:41:18 AM »
I'm glad I found this thread. I was prepared to spend a few thousand to convert a grain bin to general storage so he would stop complaining about a lack of storage.

It is nice to see I am not the only one having issues.

You are not alone.

Also, the grain bin will not stop the complaining forever. Extra storage for an over-storer is like extra money to a spender or extra smack to a junkie. It goes into the bottomless pit that will never be full.

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2017, 06:48:31 AM »
I would definitely be willing to give in-depth financial advice to needy family members and essentially teach them what they need to know, but I would not give money to any family member. That often becomes a slippery slope that can lead to disaster and dependency. So unless you are super rich and want to act as your family's welfare system, the don't start giving your money away.

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2017, 06:53:06 AM »
As much as I absolutely hate the word blessed, I kind of feel blessed for not having to deal with stuff like this.

This thread makes me wonder if there's a correlation in life between having shitty relationships and making shitty financial decisions over the long term.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2017, 10:52:44 AM »
Appreciate all the responses. I would imagine this thread is helpful to quite a few. A few points I've been pondering:

1. With the insanely low savings rate that most folks have, I don't see how a financially irresponsible parent wouldn't impact other family members later in life...if not financially, emotionally.

2. It is almost impossible to escape feeling some guilt at some level. Even if we do not have the ideal childhood or parents, there is still an innate desire to have an ideal childhood and parent. It's a bit hard, barring some obvious circumstances, to completely unplug emotionally from those you were born from. To see them get older and more needy is difficult. To cut the cord while this is happening ain't much easier.

3. Should my support of them be based on how I choose to evaluate how they were as a parent? as an adult? as a human? In short, when it comes to matters of money, we all make choices, we all have different values. For me and my life, it has been critical to save money and invest in my future beyond work. I don't want to be a burden on anyone. In this case, my FIL has obviously had different values and has acted upon them accordingly...that has been his choice. If he happened to be the greatest FIL of all time, should I do anything differently? I think not.

Wow, you are not alone!  Many of us are walking through these issues.  Laura33 gave some great points, though I would add a caveat to that last point, which I'll get to.  Alas, I spend much of my time dealing with troubled relationships in one form or another, and have walked through exceptionally difficult family situations (and financial ones) as well.  Some have worked out really well (see this post, e.g.: http://mustardseedmoney.com/index.php/2017/08/18/homeless-to-hopeful/), but others required more boundaries.

As to your questions...

First, I will do something unusual: recommend that you read this book, Boundaries (http://amzn.to/2xfBOQf) and do it now.  It's vital.  It'll help you figure out what to do once you reach decisions, and help you think through them, too.  Don't take my word for it, either: Notice that several posters who gave you solid answers used that word - boundaries - because it's so key when dealing with relatives in tough situations. 

I apologize if you already realize that, but from your question/responses, I wanted to be sure to emphasize the monumental importance of learning and setting good boundaries.  Nowhere is that more important than here, when you have a close relative where you have a financial relationship too. 

Now I'll take your questions head on.

1.  Yes, absolutely yes.  Especially emotionally.  It's like a test of how well you can handle your own personal affairs, too: how good are you at setting and maintaining boundaries, and deciding how to prioritize things? 

2.  Yes, you may feel some guilt, but I do think it's possible to work through and limit the amount of it coming your way.  You may well want to consider a little counseling on this to deal with it, talk it through, and process it *before* you reach the major decision points.

3.  I completely agree with you, especially that last sentence.  This is where posters seem to have the most confusion/differences/uncertainty, so it seems like the place where I may be able to add some value.

Here's how I approach things: I take each day and try to be faithful to everyone in that day.  To do so, I have to prioritize: my faith/God comes first, then my wife, then providing for family, then my family at large, and so on.  I think it helps to list these things out. 

Once I do, I realize: I won't do things that jeopardize my ability to provide for my wife/family.  Period.  If FIL needs money, my wife comes first, and if my family may not make ends meet, or it'll jeopardize that later on, then it's not an option.  Period.  That takes a ton of things off the table immediately. 

For instance, Mishmash posted about a situation where it may jeopardize her marriage: I would never, ever, do that.  My marriage is #2 on my list (and #1 and #2 reinforce each other), so it's automatically off the table.  Decisions this big can't be made alone and go well...  I truly hope Mishmash is able to have a "come to Jesus" talk with her spouse now and draw some boundaries that help them both. 

Next, I consider what my responsibility here is.  I believe (personally) that we have an obligation to provide for our own families, especially kids and sometimes aging parents.  But that responsibility is also tempered: the Bible, for instance, commands the church to provide for "true widows" but notes that irresponsible ones who live large may not be provided for - it's never good to subsidize foolish behavior.  The end goal, in any event, is to be faithful to him/her.

In all cases, people have more than financial needs: often money is the symptom.  They have emotional needs, spiritual needs, and other needs.  (More on that here, in this post - the logic applies just the same to your situation: http://financeswithpurpose.com/gave-away-2500-today-challenge-fellow-bloggers/)

You can be faithful by helping FIL with some of those needs: figuring out why he overspends, for instance, and helping address some of the needs that cause that, perhaps.  It's complicated - humans are complicated - but may prove more fruitful than actual financial assistance. 

Another tip: don't do anything that someone CAN do for themselves.  (Even if they're NOT doing it now.)  In other words, you're usually not helping someone by doing what they could do.  In fact, it'll usually hurt them and ultimately hurt you, too.  (In lots of different ways: building resentment, creating worse dependencies, etc. - it can be complicated.)  I recommend you see the post above re: giving, and the book therein - When Helping Hurts (http://amzn.to/2g8B9M8). 

You can also be faithful by starting these conversations now, first with your spouse. 

I can't recommend enough that you work through the emotional stuff NOW.  Decide what being faithful looks like for your family.  Decide what may work, and what may not.  Decide what boundaries you need with FIL.

Getting to your question, I agree, you are faithful to him because he's your father-in-law/parent, not because of how good he was at it or whether he uses money well.  Those things may impact *HOW* you can best be faithful to him (and others in your life) - what that looks like - but as you suggest, it should have zero impact on *WHETHER* you are faithful to him. 

You can be faithful but not always feel faithful, though - that's important to keep in mind - even if you do a perfect job of it. 

You will almost NEVER make good money decisions or life decisions based upon guilt and the emotions of the moment. 

In general, emotions are helpful: they signal things to us.  But they also deceive us, all the time.  Who hasn't felt guilty for something where no actual guilt (or virtually none) was there?  Or felt fear that was unwarranted?  Or felt anger that was more than warranted?  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Emotions can lead us towards bad decisions.  (For me, they often would.)  Plus, they're often easier to manipulate.  FIL can make you feel bad, strategically, but it's nigh impossible for him to convince you that a long-considered decision about boundaries was wrong as a matter of principle. 

So take them as more of a sign - one to be evaluated and considered - rather than a fixed reality that you must always alleviate.  (The Bible speaks of a man who's battered to and fro by the waves of emotions - letting his feelings and others' actions carry him about in life.  It's not a good life to live.) 

Once you decide things, then go communicate those boundaries.  On that, I agree with Laura33: more communication is better.  More communication sooner is even better. 

It's best to be proactive.  Discuss limits.  Never promise what you won't do, too.  Discuss things you know you could do.  Offer to be an input now.  If necessary, be clear that you need to have some input/information now if help will be expected later.  (Who'd buy a $1M investment if they were told they could never see the books?  It's common sense - where huge financial commitments may be expected or necessary.)  You'll have to judge where those lines are and how much of that is appropriate, based upon how much financial obligation you may believe exists - and that may even depend, in part, upon how responsible someone is being. 

For what it's worth, I'm having these same conversations with a parent currently.  (And working through much more difficult conversations with another relative.)  It's not the same as your situation, but I know that I'm the main family she has who's in any kind of position to help her (and has that obligation), so it'll be me who she comes to if she ever needs to.  As a result, we've been having those conversations for years now, and I'm actually now a part of her finances as well, and help her manage some things.  (Our relationship in that way is good, otherwise, I would never recommend that.)  But the only reason I'm that involved is because I also owe her some responsibility down the line, too.  We're already talking about what those things might look like. 

This is your life, and your family should remain #1 to you, especially your wife.  There's no reason you *have* to spend decades in guilt, especially if you take time now.  I can't promise you that you'll never feel any, and, in fact, it can be hardest watching those we love make poor decisions that cause themselves and others serious emotional pain.  It can hurt for a while.  But working through all this now will alleviate tons of guilt and allow you to be in charge of the situation emotionally - being as faithful as you can, while remaining most faithful to those you need to be most faithful to (and you can't forget yourself in it all, either!).  None of us can tell you exactly what to do, but this is where I would start - and have started - when facing these issues...

I'm sorry you're headed into a difficult situation, but on the other hand, this is also a real opportunity to grow in areas that will enhance the rest of your life, too, and hopefully make other situations easier to handle.  Let us know how it goes!

For me personally, I wouldn't give any money, but I would offer my parents to stay with me. That is kind of what my parents did for me, so it seems fair to reciprocate. I lived at home for about 12 months after undergrad. I worked as a substitute teacher and construction during the summer and saved some money for grad school.

My parents are divorced and both remarried. One couple is really good with money and the other couple is really bad with money. The differences are fascinating. I kind of feel like I'm the author of rich dad poor instead. However, instead of it being dad's, it's two separate sets of parents.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2017, 11:36:59 AM »
Ugh I worry about this a lot. I see our parents struggling with the poor financial planning of their parents (our grandparents) and it has definitely taken a toll on them financially. In turn, my own parents, while better off than most of my grandparents, are still at risk of running out of money and living off SS if they make it past their mid 80s. Sadly, they are in this position due to poor financial planning and spendy habits that are unlikely to change substantially.

Take-aways from my family:

Avoid financial-legal responsibility like the plague – do NOT cosign for assisted living or nursing facilities and be prepared to face pressure to do so, as many places do not want to take destitute old people and rely solely on medicaid reimbursement. Find a place that will take the parent without a cosigner if needed. You will be on the hook long after they are dead. Yes, these facilities may not be as nice, but as long as the care is good and the place is safe, then you get what you get.

Talk early and often about retirement/finances with the older person to try to get a handle on where they stand financially. They will most likely balk and ignore you and obstruct to some degree, but keep trying (nicely). One set of our grandparents completely blindsided their kids with their poor finances halfway through their 80s…no one realized how poor they were until it was too late to really help stop the damage. The kids just assumed they were fine.

Set firm lines now about what you will and won’t do, with yourself and your spouse. Make sure these boundaries are detailed (how much will you spend on assisting this person, what types of assistance you will offer, what types you absolutely will not offer under any circumstances, etc). If it helps, write it up like a little informal contract for yourselves. Refer back to it when the going gets tough and you have to put your foot down, or if one of you starts to waiver out of guilt. Do not make decisions on the fly…as they will just keep coming and coming. You need a plan of attack from the start.

Foster complete transparency with your spouse starting today – You both need to be a united front on this, and therefore you need crystal clear communication even if the topics are uncomfortable or upsetting. My dad never told my mom he cosigned for his mom's nursing care…she found out later when the bills started coming. It was not good.

gentmach

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2017, 09:11:19 PM »
I'm glad I found this thread. I was prepared to spend a few thousand to convert a grain bin to general storage so he would stop complaining about a lack of storage.

It is nice to see I am not the only one having issues.

You are not alone.

Also, the grain bin will not stop the complaining forever. Extra storage for an over-storer is like extra money to a spender or extra smack to a junkie. It goes into the bottomless pit that will never be full.

I know. After 10 years it had gotten to the point that a year or two of quiet is worth a few thousand dollars. But those Grain bins are actually going to be used so my plan is out the window.

Tris Prior

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2017, 09:00:17 AM »
Posting to follow as I may find myself in this situation. My mother is still paying a mortgage that's just a few hundred dollars a month less than her SS check (her only income). She has some small savings from my father's life insurance policies but said she is running through them quickly due to needed home repairs (and credit card minimum payments as that's how she's paying for food and other bills). Utterly refuses to consider selling the house and moving; has too many pets to go into assisted living or a senior apartment and of course also refuses to rehome any of them. Spends way too much on her pets and on her garden, yet calls me crying if the electric bill goes up by $10.

I have no idea what she's going to do if she needs care; she has told me many times that she will not leave her house, will not accept any sort of outside caregiver, etc. I imagine she's expecting me to drop everything, quit my job, leave my partner, and move in with her (she's hinted as such), but given that she is VERY emotionally abusive I don't think I am capable of that.

I'm in my mid-40s and only really got serious about saving a couple years ago, so I am really scared about what this could mean for my small stash.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2017, 09:34:26 AM »
I have no idea what she's going to do if she needs care; she has told me many times that she will not leave her house, will not accept any sort of outside caregiver, etc. I imagine she's expecting me to drop everything, quit my job, leave my partner, and move in with her (she's hinted as such), but given that she is VERY emotionally abusive I don't think I am capable of that.

This is not a reasonable request. At all.

wenchsenior

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2017, 09:47:23 AM »
Posting to follow as I may find myself in this situation. My mother is still paying a mortgage that's just a few hundred dollars a month less than her SS check (her only income). She has some small savings from my father's life insurance policies but said she is running through them quickly due to needed home repairs (and credit card minimum payments as that's how she's paying for food and other bills). Utterly refuses to consider selling the house and moving; has too many pets to go into assisted living or a senior apartment and of course also refuses to rehome any of them. Spends way too much on her pets and on her garden, yet calls me crying if the electric bill goes up by $10.

I have no idea what she's going to do if she needs care; she has told me many times that she will not leave her house, will not accept any sort of outside caregiver, etc. I imagine she's expecting me to drop everything, quit my job, leave my partner, and move in with her (she's hinted as such), but given that she is VERY emotionally abusive I don't think I am capable of that.

I'm in my mid-40s and only really got serious about saving a couple years ago, so I am really scared about what this could mean for my small stash.

Oh, boy.  This type of attitude is exactly what made the difference between us extending a lot of help to one  parent, and very little to the other.  One was open about finance, willing to move, willing to stick to budget, etc.  The other was similar to your mother, except she didn't own a home...just refused to go into low-income state housing (too much paperwork, didn't like options, didn't like being on waiting lists), refused to give up animals, etc.  Eventually she ended up homeless, crashing briefly with friends and relatives,  lived in a tent for a while, then in an old camper with no electricity.  We did not  help except for occasional emergency cash infusions, which we budget for (e.g., to buy her a camper when we found out she was in a tent), because she won't do the practical things required to help herself.  It sucks, but you can't force people to do things.  Her living with us is absolutely not an option and never would be.

It sucks, but you have to figure out in advance what you are able and willing to reasonably do, make sure they understand it, and then stick with it.

Gumption

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2017, 10:13:55 AM »
I would imagine that in most cases, we generally know if a parent has prepared for retirement or not.
I think, just as we need to have a conversation about end of life items (in-home nurse, nursing home, assisted living, etc) we also need to have a conversation about how they are planning to fund their years of later retirement.

In my experience, my parents and my MIL have saved and considered these options, have the funds to make it all happen, and (thusly) are pretty open to talking about that and letting us know that they will be okay. Certainly, we may need to help out organizing when they start to lose more of their cognitive functioning, but the money is there and the plan is in place.

My FIL, however, is and has been in denial about anything beyond today it seems. As i have stated above, if anything, his plan has been to drop hints about his theory of "familial obligation" and how many times the little kids said "yes!" when he has mentioned to them if it would be good if he "moved closer." This passive aggressive offensive reached a breaking point last visit when he mentioned that a friend of his told him, "well, looks like you need to move out there with your daughters family." He knows how we feel about this, and therefore never had the spine to ask directly about moving in.

So, at the end of the last visit, my SO had to lay the hammer down and let him know that: 1) No, you cannot move in with us; 2) the fact that you have no plan for retirement is very frustrating to us, but, in the end, its your life so do what you want. This is as much of a "discussion" that we can expect from him after trying nicely for 10 years. He doesnt want to deal with it, so we had to simply let him know where we draw the line. Now its his turn to deal with it or not.

In short, the sooner you can have the conversation, the better. If they don't have their finances in order you need to save yourself and let them know where you stand and where you draw the line. People might be mad, feelings will be hurt, rifts might set themselves in stone; but in the end, you need to do what is right for you and the children that you brought into this world.
"Familial Obligation" to me means having your ship in order and not being a burden on those around you.

My feeling is that if you have SS then you have some means of avoiding homelessness. It is your life and you alone are responsible for your decisions. If saving for your later years hasn't been a priority, then you will have to live accordingly. Sure, there is guilt in saying "too bad for you, I am retiring early," but, these are the choices we make and have to live with.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 10:26:36 AM by Gumption »

Tris Prior

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2017, 10:40:59 AM »
I have no idea what she's going to do if she needs care; she has told me many times that she will not leave her house, will not accept any sort of outside caregiver, etc. I imagine she's expecting me to drop everything, quit my job, leave my partner, and move in with her (she's hinted as such), but given that she is VERY emotionally abusive I don't think I am capable of that.

This is not a reasonable request. At all.

Oh, I know. Thanks to a LOT of therapy to help me work through my feelings of obligation. She did that for my grandmother (my parents actually bought my grandma a townhome! I do not have the money to do that for her!) and my father so expects that I will fall in line too. :(


just refused to go into low-income state housing (too much paperwork, didn't like options, didn't like being on waiting lists), refused to give up animals, etc.  Eventually she ended up homeless, crashing briefly with friends and relatives,  lived in a tent for a while, then in an old camper with no electricity.  We did not  help except for occasional emergency cash infusions, which we budget for (e.g., to buy her a camper when we found out she was in a tent), because she won't do the practical things required to help herself.  It sucks, but you can't force people to do things.  Her living with us is absolutely not an option and never would be.

I'm sorry that happened, and I worry a lot about that happening to my mother. She doesn't have anyone in her life except me; has run off all other friends, relatives, neighbors, etc. If she lost the house I honestly do not know what she would do as she cannot live with me, not only because of the toll on my mental health, but I live in a walk-up city apartment that isn't suited to someone elderly.

She will not consider low-income housing or any other low-income senior services, because she refuses to show her finances to anyone. She thinks that's how you get identity theft and "my money is no one's business but mine! Why can't they just believe I am poor?" Uh, it is if you're trying to prove you qualify for help?

It really sucks to be sitting here watching the train wreck and knowing that there's nothing I can do to help. Any money I gave her would just go poof.

EmFrugal

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2017, 12:43:53 PM »
You are definitely not alone here. My husband and I worry about this frequently with my parents. The irony being that my FIL is a financial blogger focused on retirement for my parent's generation. I am so very thankful that I have been able to learn from my husband and his dad about how to properly take care of finances since I definitely was not taught as a child. And MMM of course has been great as well.

While I don't have to worry about my in-laws, in my parent's case lack of financial knowledge and mental illness killed their wealth. My dad inherited a decent chunk of change but squandered it within two years on hoarding (he has OCD) and other luxuries that put them under. Also, he cannot hold down a job for various reasons that were not apparent when my mom married him. Divorce was never an option for her so his financial problems became hers, despite her working. I didn't feel it when I was young because wealthy grandparents wrote a monthly check to band-aid the bigger problems. But that band-aid never taught financial knowledge or addressed long-term issues. I thought we were financially secure. When my grandfather passed, things tanked fast. I was in college at that point on a fully funded account but my younger brother was still in HS. He still has anxiety from the shock of almost losing everything.

When the recession hit, my parents could not afford to make their house payment and had to get loans from siblings. They also dipped into my brother's college account and he now has loans because of it. There were mountains of debt due to my dad's hoarding, and he had failed to properly report taxes, so the IRS stepped in to collect their funds. It was a giant nightmare and mess. At the time my husband and I were newlyweds just starting out. Yet we felt an obligation to help. And I felt GUILTY given what had happened to my brother. So we gave some money when a tree in the backyard fell into the neighbor's yard and my parents could not afford to have it removed. We also gave a little here and there when they could not pay their electric bill.

That experience really honed in the importance of having an emergency fund for us, the importance of financial literacy, plus began the conversation about how much money to give my parents in the long term.

In some ways, my parents will be the "charity" we donate/lose money to. We both understand that. But we also have agreed that we must become financial custodians for my parents so that money is never squandered if we are providing it. They are stable now, thank God, but they still have no savings. My mom still works full-time with benefits and will have to work for a very long time. She only has Social Security to rely on when her working days come to an end. My dad receives disability payments + Medicare. But honestly, his health is so poor that I don't know how much longer he may live. We have not quite figured out how much we will supplement, but the likely course of action will be selling their house "as-is" (it needs too much work like electric and plumbing in addition to aesthetics) and moving my mom to something she can actually afford. The payment is was too high for her teacher's salary. Selling the house now with my dad still in it presents too many issues due to his mental illness though. Ideally they would be out of it now but his rage in unreal when his "stuff" is touched or moved. And none of us want to go there.

Sorry for hijacking with my story, but it is overwhelming sometimes!

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2017, 01:33:12 AM »
...
So, at the end of the last visit, my SO had to lay the hammer down and let him know that: 1) No, you cannot move in with us; 2) the fact that you have no plan for retirement is very frustrating to us, but, in the end, its your life so do what you want. This is as much of a "discussion" that we can expect from him after trying nicely for 10 years. He doesnt want to deal with it, so we had to simply let him know where we draw the line. Now its his turn to deal with it or not.
...
My feeling is that if you have SS then you have some means of avoiding homelessness. It is your life and you alone are responsible for your decisions. If saving for your later years hasn't been a priority, then you will have to live accordingly. Sure, there is guilt in saying "too bad for you, I am retiring early," but, these are the choices we make and have to live with.

These are so important. First being on that same page as your partner (and if there are other siblings involved, that is a bonus) is key to setting and reinforcing boundaries. It is a recipe for disaster if the parent/in-law gets a different message from each of you.

Second is that it is so rare in this day and age for (older or vulnerable) people in developed countries to have no money and no access to services. If the parent/in-law doesn't like that situation then they should make different choices or reflect on the fact that they are living with previous choices.

I struggle with how/if we would explain retiring early to our wasteful in-laws. I also struggle with whether I would actually do that or feel an obligation to work OMY to feed the black hole of overspending. My gut feeling, is that as I would be living on so much less than them, I'd come around to being fine with it, but that isn't the same as feeling good about it.

Cassie

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Re: Paying the price for others mistakes?
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2017, 02:28:12 PM »
As a baby boomer I am  always shocked by these  types of  threads.  I  would  never be  a burden to  my kids and my parents  felt the  same  way.   After my dad died my mom's  income  went down  but she adjusted  the  budget. Because  she lived until  90 she outlived  her savings  but prepaid all her funeral  costs and  lived on her monthly  income.  Before  she died she told  us to  sell her car to  treat  everyone' that  came to  a nice  lunch. We  did that.  We sold what was in her  apartment  and  no bills  went  unpaid. She n  a great  mom and responsible  through the  end.