Author Topic: Paying off mortgage fully at 27 is better than investing? Is my math wrong?  (Read 2297 times)

julia

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If you're in Canada and 'awake', you may have been exposed to a leaked email. I won't get into it but I basically do not want ANY form of debt, including a mortgage. I was doing calculations on the advantages of paying off mortgage in full vs leaving that amount in stocks and it looks like I'd only make an extra ~20k by putting in into stocks over 25 years (length of mortgage)?

Can the experts check my math? Am I missing something?

My mortgage is 212k, for 25 years (currently fixed at 1.79% for 5 years). Ignore the downpayment for ease of calculation at the moment.

Scenario 1:
I currently have more than this in stocks but the sake of argument, lets say I only had 212k in stocks and didn't add anything for 25 years and just let it compound:
-212k invested with a 4% rate of return + compound interest = 565k after 25 years (I used networthify calculator)
-this means after 25 years, I have a mortgage paid off, plus the compounded investments, minus a very conservative 50k in mortgage interest that would likely be much higher since my current term is locked in for 5 years but will likely go up after 5 years.
-So 212k paid off house + 565k investments - 50k interest = 727k networth after 25 years

Scenario 2: Pay off mortgage in full lump sum
-212k is withdrawn from stocks (yes I know I'd have to pay tax on interest but ignore this for simplicity) so theoretically let's pretend I now have zero in stocks but mortgage is fully paid off; it will only cost around 1k in fees to pay off mortgage in full
-I now have an extra 867$ monthly (mortgage payment) to invest
-867$ invested monthly at a 4% interest rate, compounded over 25 years = 446k
-So 212k paid off house + 446k investments + 50k that we'd save on interested = 708k

For peace of mind, I feel like the 20k I'd save over 25 years isn't worth it. Did I miss something?

ender

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Sure, if you pick a historically really low return rate then your payoff decision changes.

Run this analysis with 5%. Or 6%.


BicycleB

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Not a Canada expert, curious to read the answers. Good luck with your decision, @julia.

wageslave23

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I dont feel like checking the math on a Saturday but investment returns are too low.  The 4% we throw around here is inflation adjusted.  So if you want to be really conservative use 4% plus 2% inflation for 6% investment returns as being historically low.  Your mortgage for the next 5 years is fixed, I would look into getting a 30 yr fixed or the equivalent in Canada.  Whether you want to pay it off for piece of mind is up to you, but if you want to know the opportunity cost at least use 5%.  Which is only 3-3.5% real returns for the stock market.

julia

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30 year fixed wasn't an option. Either 4 or 5 year fixed or variable.

RWD

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4% rate of return
A 4% rate of return would be in the bottom 10% for 25-year periods. You picked such a pessimistic number and paying off the mortgage still came out behind.

RWD

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You can always pay it off later too, you know. Right now you have an amazing interest rate that is likely below inflation. If in 5 years that goes up to something unpalatable you can take the money you have set aside and pay off the mortgage then.

julia

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If things are going the way they are in Canada, my investments will be worth nothing anyways.

wageslave23

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I checked. Your math is off.  Here is the calculation 212k compounded at 4% for 25 yrs = 565k.  Vs. 865 mo x12 x 25yrs compounded at 4%= 445k.  You don't double count the interest.  Its irrelevant, either way you have a paid off house in 25 years. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 07:21:41 AM by wageslave23 »

ToTheMoon

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If you're in Canada and 'awake', you may have been exposed to a leaked email. I won't get into it but I basically do not want ANY form of debt, including a mortgage. I was doing calculations on the advantages of paying off mortgage in full vs leaving that amount in stocks and it looks like I'd only make an extra ~20k by putting in into stocks over 25 years (length of mortgage)?

I am in Canada, and I thought I was relatively 'awake' but I have no idea to what you are referring here. A two-second Google brought this up:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/29/facebook-posts/no-evidence-leaked-email-canadian-politician-authe/

I hope this is not what is causing you stress?

If things are going the way they are in Canada, my investments will be worth nothing anyways.

Can you expand on what you mean here? You sound afraid of the future and that is no way to live. Perhaps if we know what it is that is worrying you we can help talk you through it?

TTM

julia

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I checked. Your math is off.  Here is the calculation 212k compounded at 4% for 25 yrs = 565k.  Vs. 865 mo x12 x 25yrs compounded at 4%= 445k.  You don't double count the interest.  Its irrelevant, either way you have a paid off house in 25 years. 

I'm not sure what you mean - are you referring to the 50k? The 212k mortgage doesn't include the interest that I pay on the mortgage, hence the 50k extra.

julia

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If you're in Canada and 'awake', you may have been exposed to a leaked email. I won't get into it but I basically do not want ANY form of debt, including a mortgage. I was doing calculations on the advantages of paying off mortgage in full vs leaving that amount in stocks and it looks like I'd only make an extra ~20k by putting in into stocks over 25 years (length of mortgage)?

I am in Canada, and I thought I was relatively 'awake' but I have no idea to what you are referring here. A two-second Google brought this up:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/29/facebook-posts/no-evidence-leaked-email-canadian-politician-authe/

I hope this is not what is causing you stress?

If things are going the way they are in Canada, my investments will be worth nothing anyways.

Can you expand on what you mean here? You sound afraid of the future and that is no way to live. Perhaps if we know what it is that is worrying you we can help talk you through it?

TTM

Though I genuinely appreciate your concern, there is way too much legitimate evidence (actual peer reviewed science and not CBC news) for me to not be 'awake'. The link you provided is indeed what I'm referring to but it did not include the actual letter in it. If you saw the timeline, you'd see that so far, everything has happened in the exact order, matching the dates, etc. I screenshotted it in October 2020 and it is alarming as to how exact it has been. It said that in early Q2, there will be established road checkpoints to ensure you aren't driving outside your area for non essential reasons. What's happening in BC right now? Tyranny.

ender

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I checked. Your math is off.  Here is the calculation 212k compounded at 4% for 25 yrs = 565k.  Vs. 865 mo x12 x 25yrs compounded at 4%= 445k.  You don't double count the interest.  Its irrelevant, either way you have a paid off house in 25 years.

+1

This is the right way to calculate this comparison.

I checked. Your math is off.  Here is the calculation 212k compounded at 4% for 25 yrs = 565k.  Vs. 865 mo x12 x 25yrs compounded at 4%= 445k.  You don't double count the interest.  Its irrelevant, either way you have a paid off house in 25 years. 

I'm not sure what you mean - are you referring to the 50k? The 212k mortgage doesn't include the interest that I pay on the mortgage, hence the 50k extra.


The way you should compare this is to compare the value of the cashflow:

  • $212k * 1.04^25 = $565k
  • Future value of an annuity which is $865/month, 4% interest, compounded monthly for 25 years = $445k

This means if your loan interest rate doesn't increase meaningfully you come out significantly behind if you pay off the mortgage now vs what you'd make by investing the payments.

ToTheMoon

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Though I genuinely appreciate your concern, there is way too much legitimate evidence (actual peer reviewed science and not CBC news) for me to not be 'awake'. The link you provided is indeed what I'm referring to but it did not include the actual letter in it. If you saw the timeline, you'd see that so far, everything has happened in the exact order, matching the dates, etc. I screenshotted it in October 2020 and it is alarming as to how exact it has been. It said that in early Q2, there will be established road checkpoints to ensure you aren't driving outside your area for non essential reasons. What's happening in BC right now? Tyranny.

My mistake. I missed the warning sign to myself when the term "awake" was used that trying to assist would go nowhere.

As someone currently living in a red zone community, mainly due to travel from outside provinces having brought Covid here, I fully support the road checkpoints and wish they existed inter-provincially (for a short time only) though I do agree that the (very few and well broadcast thus easy to avoid) checkpoints within the province of BC are a bit silly and will not make any difference.

I am not interested in any more of a Covid discussion, nor "the gov't is going to steal my house" discussion so I will step out now. Pay off your house if it makes you sleep better. There are pages long threads about how it is not financially optimal, but we all know that is not the only variable to consider.

julia

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I checked. Your math is off.  Here is the calculation 212k compounded at 4% for 25 yrs = 565k.  Vs. 865 mo x12 x 25yrs compounded at 4%= 445k.  You don't double count the interest.  Its irrelevant, either way you have a paid off house in 25 years.

+1

This is the right way to calculate this comparison.

I checked. Your math is off.  Here is the calculation 212k compounded at 4% for 25 yrs = 565k.  Vs. 865 mo x12 x 25yrs compounded at 4%= 445k.  You don't double count the interest.  Its irrelevant, either way you have a paid off house in 25 years. 

I'm not sure what you mean - are you referring to the 50k? The 212k mortgage doesn't include the interest that I pay on the mortgage, hence the 50k extra.


The way you should compare this is to compare the value of the cashflow:

  • $212k * 1.04^25 = $565k
  • Future value of an annuity which is $865/month, 4% interest, compounded monthly for 25 years = $445k

This means if your loan interest rate doesn't increase meaningfully you come out significantly behind if you pay off the mortgage now vs what you'd make by investing the payments.

I'm not understanding this. This is exactly what I calculated, without adding/subtracting the 50k that I'd pay over 25 years as mortgage interest.

ender

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I'm not understanding this. This is exactly what I calculated, without adding/subtracting the 50k that I'd pay over 25 years as mortgage interest.

Why does that 50k matter?

If you pay off the mortgage now, you take $212k which would have been invested and compare it to the $865/month annuity. If you take the $212k, you are already subtracting the $50k when you consider the comparison to the annuity stream.

Mortgage interest is not a factor here, as in both cases you end up with a paid off house after 25 years. But in one, you take $212k and invest it all now paying $865/month. In the other, you keep $212k invested and invest $865/month.

julia

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I'm not understanding this. This is exactly what I calculated, without adding/subtracting the 50k that I'd pay over 25 years as mortgage interest.

Why does that 50k matter?

If you pay off the mortgage now, you take $212k which would have been invested and compare it to the $865/month annuity. If you take the $212k, you are already subtracting the $50k when you consider the comparison to the annuity stream.

Mortgage interest is not a factor here, as in both cases you end up with a paid off house after 25 years. But in one, you take $212k and invest it all now paying $865/month. In the other, you keep $212k invested and invest $865/month.

My brain isn't absorbing this. 12 months x 25 years = 300
212k divided by 300 payments over 25 years = 706$
867 mortgage payment - 706 = 151 difference
151 x 300 payments = almost 50k

Therefore the 212k doesn't already include the 50k interest that you'd pay extra over 25 years.

ender

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I'm not understanding this. This is exactly what I calculated, without adding/subtracting the 50k that I'd pay over 25 years as mortgage interest.

Why does that 50k matter?

If you pay off the mortgage now, you take $212k which would have been invested and compare it to the $865/month annuity. If you take the $212k, you are already subtracting the $50k when you consider the comparison to the annuity stream.

Mortgage interest is not a factor here, as in both cases you end up with a paid off house after 25 years. But in one, you take $212k and invest it all now paying $865/month. In the other, you keep $212k invested and invest $865/month.

My brain isn't absorbing this. 12 months x 25 years = 300
212k divided by 300 payments over 25 years = 706$
867 mortgage payment - 706 = 151 difference
151 x 300 payments = almost 50k

Therefore the 212k doesn't already include the 50k interest that you'd pay extra over 25 years.

Think about it from the perspective of the two choices.

Do you agree you are effectively deciding between:

  • Pay $212k now, have $0 mortgage balance/$0 investment balance, add $867/month for 25 years
  • Do not pay $212k now, have $212k mortgage, $212k investments, and pay $867/month for 25 years


MrDelane

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I think your calculations are confusing here.  You are adding and subtracting interest from your networth (which isn’t how it should work) and you are also ignoring the additional funds required to make up for the lost compounding time in the market in scenario 2.

The first most important point is that, as others have mentioned, your estimate of 4% is most likely too low.
And, as you asked, for the sake of simplicity we’ll ignore taxes, downpayments and even the fact that your home will most likely appreciate.

But my main question is - are you calculating what you will gain over 25 years, or are you calculating what your networth will be after 25 years?
Because you seem to be trying to do both simultaneously - and they are two different things.

Scenario 1:
I currently have more than this in stocks but the sake of argument, lets say I only had 212k in stocks and didn't add anything for 25 years and just let it compound:
-212k invested with a 4% rate of return + compound interest = 565k after 25 years (I used networthify calculator)
-this means after 25 years, I have a mortgage paid off, plus the compounded investments, minus a very conservative 50k in mortgage interest that would likely be much higher since my current term is locked in for 5 years but will likely go up after 5 years.
-So 212k paid off house + 565k investments - 50k interest = 727k networth after 25 years


This doesn’t make sense.
Your networth after 25 years would not be 727K.

Instead I would suggest you look at it as gains over 25 years versus estimated networth in 25 years.

Keep in mind we know that your current networth is 212K.

So in this first scenario you would have spent 272K total on the house (212K mortgage +50K interest over 25 years) while ending with a total of 565K in stocks from your original networth of 212k.

So:
565K - 272K = 293K total gains over 25 years.

Whereas your networth in 25 years would be:

212K home + 565K stocks = 777K


Quote
Scenario 2: Pay off mortgage in full lump sum
-212k is withdrawn from stocks (yes I know I'd have to pay tax on interest but ignore this for simplicity) so theoretically let's pretend I now have zero in stocks but mortgage is fully paid off; it will only cost around 1k in fees to pay off mortgage in full
-I now have an extra 867$ monthly (mortgage payment) to invest
-867$ invested monthly at a 4% interest rate, compounded over 25 years = 446k
-So 212k paid off house + 446k investments + 50k that we'd save on interested = 708k

You may save 50K on interest here, but you will spend 48,100 dollars more on stocks all to make a lower return overall.

In this scenario you would have spent 212K total on the house while gaining a total of 446k in stocks, but also investing 260,100 total over 25 years (867/month over 25 years).  In scenario 1 you only had to invest your original 212K, so this case has an additional investment of 48,100 from you over 25 years.

So:
446k - 212K - 48,100 = 185,900 total gains over 25 years.

Meanwhile your networth in 25 years would be:

212K home + 446k stocks = 658K



EDITED TO ADD: Apologies if others already covered this in the time it took me to type.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:14:17 AM by MrDelane »

julia

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I'm not understanding this. This is exactly what I calculated, without adding/subtracting the 50k that I'd pay over 25 years as mortgage interest.

Why does that 50k matter?

If you pay off the mortgage now, you take $212k which would have been invested and compare it to the $865/month annuity. If you take the $212k, you are already subtracting the $50k when you consider the comparison to the annuity stream.

Mortgage interest is not a factor here, as in both cases you end up with a paid off house after 25 years. But in one, you take $212k and invest it all now paying $865/month. In the other, you keep $212k invested and invest $865/month.

My brain isn't absorbing this. 12 months x 25 years = 300
212k divided by 300 payments over 25 years = 706$
867 mortgage payment - 706 = 151 difference
151 x 300 payments = almost 50k

Therefore the 212k doesn't already include the 50k interest that you'd pay extra over 25 years.

Oh wait, if I am paying 867 into stocks monthly, that extra 151$ (total of 50k over 25 years) is already being accounted for, so I don't have to add it to my total for the 'pay off mortgage now' calculation. But I would still subtract 50k from my networth for the 'payoff mortgage over 25 years'. Is this correct?

ender

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Oh wait, if I am paying 867 into stocks monthly, that extra 151$ (total of 50k over 25 years) is already being accounted for, so I don't have to add it to my total for the 'pay off mortgage now' calculation. But I would still subtract 50k from my networth for the 'payoff mortgage over 25 years'. Is this correct?

Why?

Just look at net worth after both 25 year periods based on what your cashflow looks like.

Interest is accounted for because the mortgage payment cashflow of $867 over 25 years results in the balance being paid off.

julia

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Oh wait, if I am paying 867 into stocks monthly, that extra 151$ (total of 50k over 25 years) is already being accounted for, so I don't have to add it to my total for the 'pay off mortgage now' calculation. But I would still subtract 50k from my networth for the 'payoff mortgage over 25 years'. Is this correct?

Why?

Just look at net worth after both 25 year periods based on what your cashflow looks like.

Interest is accounted for because the mortgage payment cashflow of $867 over 25 years results in the balance being paid off.

Because 867 x 25 years worth of payments doesn't equal 212k (mortgage amount). It equals about 260k. So by paying it off now, I only pay 212k, and not the extra 50k in interest.

Am I not seeing something? I feel really dumb :P

ender

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Because 867 x 25 years worth of payments doesn't equal 212k (mortgage amount). It equals about 260k. So by paying it off now, I only pay 212k, and not the extra 50k in interest.

Am I not seeing something? I feel really dumb :P

Don't focus on the payment summation.

For this analysis you are considering two scenarios:

  • Starting net worth
  • Ending net worth

In both your starting is the same. So you need to consider the ending. Which is based on:


  • Pay $212k now, have $0 mortgage balance/$0 investment balance, add $867/month for 25 years
  • Do not pay $212k now, have $212k mortgage, $212k investments, and pay $867/month for 25 years


Any interest you pay for the mortgage payment is already built into these. For the first, you "save" all that mortgage interest because 100% of your $867/month payment goes towards investments in an annuity.

In the second, you are paying that interest, which is why your investments only increase based on the starting value of $212k.

MrDelane

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Ender is correct. You are confusing yourself.

You can ignore the interest in this scenario because your plan is to pay the same amount into stocks regardless.

So you either spend 260K on the house over 25 years in scenario 1
or you spent 260K in stocks over 25 years in scenario 2
(867/month over 25 years in both instances)

So the amount spent will be the same in either case.
You can just look at the ending networth (which I summarized in my post above)

Scenario 1: Pay mortage over 25 years
212K home + 565K stocks = 777K

Scenario 2: Pay off mortgage now
212K home + 446k stocks = 658K
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:41:21 AM by MrDelane »

julia

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I'm going to just trust you guys instead of trying to wrap my head around the math :P Damn so it's more of 120k difference. That's annoying.
But I suppose if what I'm reading is correct and the dollar collapses, at least the gov couldn't take my house if it was paid off vs. investments going to zero.

Metalcat

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Go ahead and pay off your house if you feel like it.

Chances are you won't come out ahead financially, but if it makes you feel better in the face of being convinced that you are vulnerable to upcoming government policies otherwise, then go ahead if it helps you sleep at night.

If you feel you have the power to predict what the Canadian markets will do because you are "awake", then cool, have fun capitalizing on that and go make way more money than the rest of us.

Don't just protect your property, go get rich.

Metalcat

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I'm going to just trust you guys instead of trying to wrap my head around the math :P Damn so it's more of 120k difference. That's annoying.
But I suppose if what I'm reading is correct and the dollar collapses, at least the gov couldn't take my house if it was paid off vs. investments going to zero.

The government can take your house whenever they want to. Debt or no debt.

If you think our dollar is going to fully collapse, then why sink more money into this economy? The smarter bet would be to not ever have any equity in your house and invest it all in markets that you do have faith in.

How on earth does doubling down into the Canadian market in the ONE asset that government can take from you at any time make sense if you are afraid of the government?

julia

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I'm going to just trust you guys instead of trying to wrap my head around the math :P Damn so it's more of 120k difference. That's annoying.
But I suppose if what I'm reading is correct and the dollar collapses, at least the gov couldn't take my house if it was paid off vs. investments going to zero.

The government can take your house whenever they want to. Debt or no debt.

If you think our dollar is going to fully collapse, then why sink more money into this economy? The smarter bet would be to not ever have any equity in your house and invest it all in markets that you do have faith in.

How on earth does doubling down into the Canadian market in the ONE asset that government can take from you at any time make sense if you are afraid of the government?

I've had the same thoughts. Nothing makes sense anymore. But I suppose if they'll force people into a debt forgiveness program, then those without debt are the glitch in the matrix.

Metalcat

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I'm going to just trust you guys instead of trying to wrap my head around the math :P Damn so it's more of 120k difference. That's annoying.
But I suppose if what I'm reading is correct and the dollar collapses, at least the gov couldn't take my house if it was paid off vs. investments going to zero.

The government can take your house whenever they want to. Debt or no debt.

If you think our dollar is going to fully collapse, then why sink more money into this economy? The smarter bet would be to not ever have any equity in your house and invest it all in markets that you do have faith in.

How on earth does doubling down into the Canadian market in the ONE asset that government can take from you at any time make sense if you are afraid of the government?

I've had the same thoughts. Nothing makes sense anymore. But I suppose if they'll force people into a debt forgiveness program, then those without debt are the glitch in the matrix.

I don't know who "they" is, but I do happen to know a number of senior government officials who are currently working on our future economic policies, and I'm privy to many of the debates and conflicts between departments as to how to move forward, and none of it makes me nervous about having a mortgage or holding debt.

seattlecyclone

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A dollar collapse, should it occur, would actually turn out really nicely for those who owe a lot of dollars to others. The real value of what you owe would decrease dramatically in this situation and would become correspondingly easier to pay off.

BicycleB

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@julia, please forgive me for saying this, but - as an American, your phrasing sounds a lot like our QAnon believers. As if someone has been prompting you with unsettling "clues" about an untrustworthy government that you're being led to be afraid of. If there's any pattern to these clues, it seems to me that the pattern is make you unsettled. They're quite effective at that, but my guess is that calmness and confidence will lead to better decisions than tracking conspiracy hints and thinking the government is a manipulative alien force. From an outsider's perspective, Canadians live in a lovely thriving democracy with healthy reasonable policies and the "clues" are probably some Russian plot to make us Westerners quibble amongst ourselves.

Financially, believing that we live in capitalist democracies with a somewhat enduring balance between capital and labor is more likely to be a good guide to action than anything else, because we've been that way for centuries and probably will continue to be. Individual capital holders including homeowners are pretty likely to keep on being able make a profit, with tolerable intermittent demands like taxes and not harming others.

Whether you pay off the mortgage or not is a personal decision. It brings some forms of security in exchange for the opportunity cost of investing mortgage payoff money. Historical returns suggest this means losing some real money, maybe CA$100,000 or more apparently in your case. But if 25 years of the secure feeling you anticipate is worth that, as it is to quite a few members of this forum, go for it.

My personal observation is that a secure feeling depends on you as well as your situation. Whatever you do, I hope you are able to find a secure and healthy approach to it. By saving the money as you obviously have, you must already have established skills of work, saving, responsibility and so on. I suspect you're going to be fine. I hope it feels that way soon.

Again, I apologize if these remarks make incorrect assumptions, or are overly personal. Just thoughts from some faraway internet guy. Best wishes!!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 02:20:42 PM by BicycleB »

American GenX

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In this market and inflationary period, except low returns and much lower "real" returns, even lower than what the government inflation figures might tell you.

I paid my mortgage off early when interest rates were much higher.  Do what is best for you.  There are some existing long threads on these matters.

lutorm

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I just want to point out that you ignored capital gains taxes on selling off your investments, "for simplicity". I don't know what Canadian tax rates are but depending on how much gains you have in those investments that might translate to a substantial tax hit. This tax hit is the only known quantity here. This makes the pay off your mortgage option even worse, maybe by 25%. And even if you do decide to pay off your mortgage, you're likely much better off spreading the sale out over a few years.

Rdy2Fire

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Well I won't get into the politics

As for math, historical returns, etc and as someone who paid off their house at 29, and wishes they invested the money instead, I'd say you're making a mistake if you pay it off.  As people pointed out, your interest rate is incredibly low and you could make much more than the 4% people indicated. Of course you may end up not even making 4% but even if you break even there is an opportunity cost with little gains in paying off your house. With all that said, if it makes you sleep better and debt is your biggest concern (it was mine, I get it!!!) then pay it off.

However, if you're going to ignore the math, just due to politics, then you might as well consider the fact that an asteroid might hit the planet therefore don't pay off your house and go blow the money on a big party :)

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I've never had the white/black good/bad feeling myself over pre-paying/paying off at all on mortgage decisions.  I kinda just view it like holding bonds or cash (I understand its different but a lot of the same reasons for action are behind it), there's a time and place for paying down that debt to de-risk/diversify/whatever and that time and place differs per person (per risk tolerance and stage of life). 

At 30 I was 100% equities and wouldn't/didn't consider it.  At 40 I was taking some business risks and getting close enough to FIRE to start wanting to mix to de-risk a little, so that was the time I was aggresively pre-paying on my mortgage (which doing so made me feel better still being 90%+ equities). Today on the cusp of RE the mortgage is paid off, and again I think not having that payment required allows me to feel better about being still as high in equities as I am (being not esp. fond of bonds right now).  Of course the value of my home is only like 7% of my net worth, so its just not that huge a "allocation" anyway if viewed that way.

Zikoris

  • Magnum Stache
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I don't have anything to contribute to the question, but I have to say that it is super fascinating watching someone real-time get sucked/conned into conspiracy theory. You just don't often get a peak inside someone's head during the process, so thank you for that.