Author Topic: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?  (Read 3733 times)

cars+FIRE

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paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« on: December 02, 2022, 11:36:25 AM »
Just for some background, my wife and I are 12 years out from retirement (38, plan to retire at 50), with timing coincident with our youngest kid going off to college.  We refinanced our house ~1.5 years ago when rates bottomed out at 2.49% and we have essentially been slightly overpaying the mortgage such that the house is also paid off basically simultaneously to our retirement/college plans.

Although it is clear that this is strategy is not 100% financially optimum (i.e. put the excess money in an index fund instead), broadly speaking we are meeting our goals in investing, savings account rates were basically zero, and so we considered this is a small way to diversify and achieve peace of mind.  Everything lines up very neatly and there is satisfaction in that.

Fast forward to today, and my online savings accounts now meet or exceed my mortgage rate.  I am inclined to divert the mortgage overpayment (it's around $650/mo) back into savings and enjoy the higher liquidity of that money.  We'd have to track it and ensure that the money is not spent, and would deposit it as a lump sum against the house at the appropriate time.

I think from a logical perspective, there's no reason not to do it, and yet I struggle.  I imagine people must be in similar boats with their mortgage now effectively running negative against inflation and even online savings accounts, is it more foolish than ever to pay down this debt??

englishteacheralex

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2022, 11:42:35 AM »
We're not putting extra into our mortgage. Our rate is 2.9% and it's really easy these days to beat that in savings options that have greater liquidity than equity.

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2022, 11:49:58 AM »
I would be maxing out Roths, or converting tax-deferred accounts to Roths if you have them. Reasons:

1) Cash and investments will count as assets with FAFSA; retirement accounts and home equity do not.

2) No RMDs from Roths.

3) Roths are a hugely powerful tool for education spending, or inheritance/estate planning.

Our rate is 2.625% on a 15 year note; we don't pre-pay either.

We'll have a mortgage as a result the first 5 years of retirement (age 60-65) and I don't care. We've already set aside 3-5 years of cash needs in our accounts, so we're set. ;)

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2022, 12:03:55 PM »

Although it is clear that this is strategy is not 100% financially optimum (i.e. put the excess money in an index fund instead), broadly speaking we are meeting our goals in investing, savings account rates were basically zero, and so we considered this is a small way to diversify and achieve peace of mind.  Everything lines up very neatly and there is satisfaction in that.

What do you mean by this?
For most people, contributing more towards their mortgage decreases diversification, as it is a single asset with limited liquidity.
As for “peace of mind”, isn’t that a core benefit of having more savings?  If you are not paying off the mortgage in full, how had your situation changed?

Holocene

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2022, 12:08:06 PM »
I think it was pretty foolish to ever pay extra on a 2.5% mortgage.  But yes, it's more foolish than ever now that you can put that money into 100% safe accounts and earn more than your mortgage rate.

Personally, I don't see any need to pay off your mortgage before you retire.  It's just an expense like all the others you'll have in retirement.  Inflation will continue to make it a smaller and smaller chunk of your overall expenses.  People argue about peace of mind and emotionally don't like being in debt.  But I get a lot more peace of mind by having more money.  I don't care about being in debt as long as it benefits me.

So if I were you, I'd just invest the extra and not worry about keeping it separate.  But if you're concerned about spending it or keeping track, just open a separate account and use it only for this and never take money out until you want to pay off the mortgage.  With a 12 year horizon (or longer if you decide retiring with a mortgage is fine), I'd go a bit more aggressive than a savings account.  Maybe put 50% in stocks and the rest in safer bonds.  Completely safe 1 year T-bills are ~4.66% which are also state tax free.  Or you could lock in longer-term notes/bonds which have lower rates (3.5-4% generally) but still beat your mortgage if you really want to take no risk.  Or find a longer-term CD.  Basically anything is better than paying extra on your mortgage at this point.

Open the separate account at Fidelity today (literally, offer ends today) and get $150 once you deposit $50: https://www.fidelity.com/go/special-offer/holiday

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2022, 01:46:15 PM »
Fast forward to today, and my online savings accounts now meet or exceed my mortgage rate.  I am inclined to divert the mortgage overpayment (it's around $650/mo) back into savings and enjoy the higher liquidity of that money.  We'd have to track it and ensure that the money is not spent, and would deposit it as a lump sum against the house at the appropriate time.

I think from a logical perspective, there's no reason not to do it, and yet I struggle.  I imagine people must be in similar boats with their mortgage now effectively running negative against inflation and even online savings accounts, is it more foolish than ever to pay down this debt??

You're correct.  It does not make financial sense to pay down a 2.5% mortgage, it is a high risk, low reward proposition.   The part you also want to rethink is paying off the mortgage as lump sum in future.   As your investing career progresses, you'll discover the power of compounding.   One component is that as inflation erodes the future dollars, your mortgage payment will become less and less of financial burden.   Similarly, as your portfolio grows, even small percentage increases will mean large dollar increases.    So you are giving up huge upside to save pennies. 

partgypsy

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2022, 01:56:35 PM »
Please let me know which savings accounts earn more than 2.9%

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2022, 02:15:47 PM »
There's no excuse to put any extra money toward a 2.5% mortgage. One-year US treasuries are yielding 4.5%, and I'm buying investment grade corporate bonds yielding 7%. FDIC-insured bank long-duration CDs are available at 5.2%, meaning you can earn over twice as much as your interest costs completely risk-free.

If you must, mentally segregate the money you put into these higher-yielding things as money you'll eventually use to pay off the mortgage when they mature and when rates are lower again.

Holocene

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2022, 03:54:19 PM »
Please let me know which savings accounts earn more than 2.9%
Pretty much all the online banks seem to be paying 3% for savings accounts right now.  Ally, Discover, Amex, Capital One, Marcus, and I'm sure a ton of others.

I prefer money market funds these days.  They're keeping up with the rate hikes better than savings accounts.  Vanguard has a few good ones: VMFXX and VUSXX have yields around 3.7% now.  At Fidelity, I just moved some FZDXX paying 3.82% from my IRA to brokerage to get around the $100k minimum since it's only $10k in an IRA.  I needed to take my RMD anyway.

And of course t-bills are ~4% and up.  There are finally a lot of good options out there to earn something on safe money.  Of course it took horrible inflation to get here and might put us into a recession...

lifeisshort123

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2022, 05:58:25 PM »
Funny to see this tonight… Dave Ramsey was screaming at a caller just the other day telling him to “listen to people who are actually wealthy” and not to “arbitrage” his wealth who was in this exact situation….

Psychologically he might be “right” about not having any debts, however, mathematically speaking, telling someone to not take a large settlement and invest it (say 300k or so) and instead pay down their 2.5% (or some similarly low interest rate) mortgage…. He got very indignant about it, probably because mathematically his advice was just not justifiable. 

Laura33

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2022, 10:10:28 AM »
So the thing about FIRE is that you need to balance your upside potential with your downside risks.  As long as you are working and saving a big chunk of your income, you can afford to focus on your upside, because having that income creates a huge cushion against market drops.*  Once you retire, however, that safety net goes away.**  So at that point, it is eminently reasonable to protect against your downside in some other way.

There are many ways to do that.  Some do it with a more conservative allocation.  Some folks do bond/CD ladders.  But one other way to do that is to minimize your required expenses.  And since for most people, a mortgage is the largest debt they have, having a paid-off house is usually the most significant thing they can do to minimize the monthly nut.  FWIW, our plan is somewhat similar to yours:  we got a 15-yr mortgage at under 3% that will be paid off around our planned retirement date.

Note, however, that this need to add additional downside protection arises only when the protection provided by the steady income goes away.  Meaning:  it's great to go into retirement with a paid-off house; but that doesn't mean you need to focus on paying off the house when you are still working.  Put your extra money into other investments now.  Then, when you're ready to quit, you can take a fresh look at your situation and pay off any remaining mortgage then if you want to. 


*As does having life/disability insurance and the like.

**To some degree or other depending on your flexibility and skills, of course.

iluvzbeach

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2022, 10:39:24 AM »
I am a fan of paying off a mortgage before retirement and our primary residence is paid off. However, we have another property that has a 2.375% rate and we aren’t paying extra toward the balance, because the rate is so low. We have the funds to pay it off but they are currently earning much more invested in online savings, I-Bonds, etc.

rmorris50

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2022, 08:46:07 PM »
Rare is the person who has made all their financial decisions purely on math and has completely optimized their finances. It’s really a blend of the math and human behavior. Being able to sleep well at night has value.

You already know the math of not paying the mortgage early, and you want to sleep well at night. Only you can find the balance between those two things.

I’ve take more tax hit than necessary in the past to have a larger after tax liquid account. But the math would have said to defer and not take the tax hit.

I do have a 2.5% fixed 30 ye mortgage and never plan to prepay. I value having more liquid investments and cash. Prepaying the mortgage is actually risky in my mind.


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Abe

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2022, 10:39:06 PM »
We're roughly the same age and have the same timeline. Also our mortgage rates are about the same!

I prefer to not pay down the mortgage because I'm not sure what emotional benefit to get from scenario 1: house that's paid off versus scenario 2: house halfway paid off, but a lot more money sitting in our savings.

In every case where interest rates remain >2.75%, by 12 years the interest from the money you saved rather than spent will cover some fraction of the annual mortgage (ranging from ~25% at 2% annual return, ~50% at 4% return up to ~100% at 6% annual return). Keep in mind that this is also an inflation hedge - not only do you get interest on the money you didn't spend, your payments will go down in real terms as inflation rises!

If you choose to stay in the same house, great- your annual payment in retirement is much lower than before! That means your overall risk of being homeless and forced to find new housing (which I presume is the worry) is quite low.

I guess the only scenario where you'd benefit is if you were retired and lost all your money in a Ponzi scheme, thus destitute save for the house you own. Then I guess you could sell the house and get some money to get back on your feet, living in a tent or homeless shelter until you have money saved for rent? I'm not being facetious, but just trying to understand since it's never occured to me that paying early could help my anxiety about the future!

Dicey

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2022, 11:58:05 PM »
Dicey waves to @Abe!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 09:38:10 AM by Dicey »

rmorris50

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2022, 07:03:43 AM »
Worse case scenario you live off Social security in a tiny one bedroom, if you truly lost everything. My mom does that. She can’t afford to go anywhere or do anything, but she has a roof over her head, food, and internet.


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big_owl

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2022, 02:56:34 PM »
Pay off your mortgage.  If you really have second thoughts about that decision and feel buyer's remorse you can always take out a second mortgage.  We both know that you won't do that so yeah, paying off your mortgage is the best choice. 

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2022, 03:34:34 PM »
Pay off your mortgage.  If you really have second thoughts about that decision and feel buyer's remorse you can always take out a second mortgage.  We both know that you won't do that so yeah, paying off your mortgage is the best choice. 

The difference is that mortgage rates have more than doubled since they refinanced. The offer to take out a loan with similar terms if they change their mind is no longer on the table, and may not be for a very long time if ever. Given the current rate environment it's possible to exceed that mortgage rate through risk-free I bonds and/or CDs. Even if you don't want to risk the extra mortgage payments in equity markets, there's really no downside to parking that cash in a CD earning 4% and pocketing the extra 1.5%. You have more liquid cash that way in case something comes up as well.

dandarc

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2022, 03:55:00 PM »
Pay off your mortgage.  If you really have second thoughts about that decision and feel buyer's remorse you can always take out a second mortgage.  We both know that you won't do that so yeah, paying off your mortgage is the best choice.
I actually did pay off my mortgage ~2016 and had second thoughts. Difference here vs. my situation is I was fortunate enough to have my "come to jesus" moment on DPOYM before rates went up to where they are now. OP should be holding on to that 2.49% rate as long as they possibly can.

So I can say from experience that a paid off house feels good for sure, but it is an extremely expensive luxury to not have a mortgage on your house, particularly for anyone who was able to lock in a good rate for a long time during the super-low interest era that we've just recently exited.

Only reason for OP to pay this loan off early is if they sell the house and therefore have to.

rmorris50

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2022, 04:49:13 AM »
Pay off your mortgage.  If you really have second thoughts about that decision and feel buyer's remorse you can always take out a second mortgage.  We both know that you won't do that so yeah, paying off your mortgage is the best choice.
Can’t take out another mortgage after you lose your job. I was paying down my mortgage on my prior house aggressively then bam, lost my job and was wishing I had more liquid savings. Will never make that mistake again. And now my current mortgage is 2.5% 30 year fixed. Not one extra penny goes towards it.

Now OP is looking to retire early so I could see putting aside the extra money and paying off the mortgage in a lump sum later, and at least the would have liquidity in the mean time. But again can’t take out another mortgage in retirement if you decide you want to.

Also, the rich all the time borrow against their assets  instead of selling them. For the average American the only asset they usually have to loan against to get a large amount of capital is their house.


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cars+FIRE

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2022, 09:30:31 AM »
Thanks for the replies everyone!

As suspected, clearly the math indicates I should not be paying down the house.  I was mostly interested in people that have come into the same scenario as me and it seems like there were a few of you.  I'll look into diverting the extra savings elsewhere.

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2022, 12:33:17 PM »
Thanks for the replies everyone!

As suspected, clearly the math indicates I should not be paying down the house.  I was mostly interested in people that have come into the same scenario as me and it seems like there were a few of you.  I'll look into diverting the extra savings elsewhere.
Awww, I love a happy ending!

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2022, 12:42:21 PM »
A big mortgage at a low rate is your best hedge against inflation! Pre-paying a low rate is just gifting the bank money for their poor investment.

Must_ache

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2022, 02:06:21 PM »
Quote
It does not make financial sense to pay down a 2.5% mortgage, it is a high risk, low reward proposition.   

No, it is a low risk, low reward proposition.  Owning stocks is a high risk proposition because they can take all sorts of directions, hence the generally higher reward.

Quote
Please let me know which savings accounts earn more than 2.9%

I'm currently getting 3.25% with E*TRADE.  It has gone up with interest rates.

Quote
A big mortgage at a low rate is your best hedge against inflation!

Any-sized mortgage at any rate technically is a hedge against inflation, by locking in a level monthly mortgage payment. 

Quote
We'd have to track it and ensure that the money is not spent, and would deposit it as a lump sum against the house at the appropriate time.

I don't think you should pay down the mortgage at all, and with 12 years to go I wouldn't necessarily accept a low return to put this away in something conservative. 
If you think your mortgage balance will be, say, $200K at age 50, increase your retirement goal by that amount.  If you want it to be accessible to pay down the mortgage you might put it in a normal taxable investment account rather than something tax-advantaged.  I suppose you could periodically buy some 5-yr CD's @ 5% or 10-yr Treasuries @ 4.125% but once your time horizon is under 10 years you'll need something short-term.

I might consider something like DVY that focuses on dividend-heavy stocks.  It will be a bit more steady and return less than the S&P, but in the last ten years it has managed +7.7%/yr plus a dividend yield that was about 3% last year.  And it's nearly flat YTD unlike the S&P.



rmorris50

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2022, 03:05:35 PM »
Quote
It does not make financial sense to pay down a 2.5% mortgage, it is a high risk, low reward proposition.   

No, it is a low risk, low reward proposition.  Owning stocks is a high risk proposition because they can take all sorts of directions, hence the generally higher reward.

Quote
Please let me know which savings accounts earn more than 2.9%

I'm currently getting 3.25% with E*TRADE.  It has gone up with interest rates.

Quote
A big mortgage at a low rate is your best hedge against inflation!

Any-sized mortgage at any rate technically is a hedge against inflation, by locking in a level monthly mortgage payment. 

Quote
We'd have to track it and ensure that the money is not spent, and would deposit it as a lump sum against the house at the appropriate time.

I don't think you should pay down the mortgage at all, and with 12 years to go I wouldn't necessarily accept a low return to put this away in something conservative. 
If you think your mortgage balance will be, say, $200K at age 50, increase your retirement goal by that amount.  If you want it to be accessible to pay down the mortgage you might put it in a normal taxable investment account rather than something tax-advantaged.  I suppose you could periodically buy some 5-yr CD's @ 5% or 10-yr Treasuries @ 4.125% but once your time horizon is under 10 years you'll need something short-term.

I might consider something like DVY that focuses on dividend-heavy stocks.  It will be a bit more steady and return less than the S&P, but in the last ten years it has managed +7.7%/yr plus a dividend yield that was about 3% last year.  And it's nearly flat YTD unlike the S&P.
I think the high risk associated with paying down the mortgage early is from a liquidity perspective, not an asset valuation perspective.


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Must_ache

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2022, 07:49:11 AM »
I think the high risk associated with paying down the mortgage early is from a liquidity perspective, not an asset valuation perspective.

Risk and return of assets deals with standard deviation and mean of a stock's return.  Liquidity may be another concern, but that's not what risk means in the context of "risk and return".

Psychstache

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2022, 08:29:12 AM »
I think the high risk associated with paying down the mortgage early is from a liquidity perspective, not an asset valuation perspective.

Risk and return of assets deals with standard deviation and mean of a stock's return.  Liquidity may be another concern, but that's not what risk means in the context of "risk and return".

Part of the challenge in a lot of these discussions is that in investing, there are a number of different kinds of risk, but we often shorthand it and assume we are talking about the same thing.

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2022, 08:56:47 AM »
Please let me know which savings accounts earn more than 2.9%

I'm getting 3.91% from UFB Direct.

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2022, 09:06:05 AM »
I think the high risk associated with paying down the mortgage early is from a liquidity perspective, not an asset valuation perspective.

Risk and return of assets deals with standard deviation and mean of a stock's return.  Liquidity may be another concern, but that's not what risk means in the context of "risk and return".

Part of the challenge in a lot of these discussions is that in investing, there are a number of different kinds of risk, but we often shorthand it and assume we are talking about the same thing.

Just to further push this discussion into the weeds - there is risk and risk tolerance. While the former can correctly be defined as above, risk tolerance has proven harder to define and includes things like liquidity and diversity.

LiveLean

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2022, 10:49:51 AM »
We bought our home in 1999. A year later, at what would be the peak of the market before that crash, we considered paying off the mortgage. We were 31 at the time. Nah, we said, let's keep riding the market. Oops.

In 2008, at what would again be the peak of the market before a crash, we again considered paying off the mortgage. This time we did.

We're still in the same house. The thought of still having a mortgage on a home that we've been in for 23 1/2 years seems ludicrous. We have no regrets of paying it off.

But to each their own.


dandarc

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2022, 11:44:01 AM »
Something lost on the "pay it off - you won't regret it" crowd is how expensive NOT having that mortgage actually is.

Lets take a look at the numbers on LiveLean's example. Buying in 1999, your interest rate could have been 8% on a 30-year loan. The S&P 500's worst annualized performance for any starting month in 2008 to today was over 9%, so round down to an even 9%. Even without refinancing (this is a period of time your borrowing cost could have gotten substantially lower from beginning to end), you cost yourself over $20,000 per $100K on the original mortgage amount with that "pay off in 2008" decision. That's today - over $40K at the end of the mortgage in 2029.

But that's with a 1999 mortgage rate and not refinancing. Even in 2008 you could get likely get a 6% 30 year fixed rate mortgage - significantly better than what was available in 1999. The OP says they have a 2.49% interest rate. Making the same decision to pay off 9 years in on a loan at 2.5% like the OP's with that same 9% annualized return after that date is much more costly. $100K at the "7 years from the end mark" and over $200K at the end of the loan. Per $100,000 originally borrowed. And the longer there is to the end date, the more expensive a decision paying off is.

Actually if you make this decision on Day 1 vs. some number of years in, over $600,000 at the end of a 30 year mortgage vs. paying cash with 9% annual return and a 2.5% rate on the mortgage. Per $100,000 that you could borrow.

So OP's decision here is about $200-600k, not $20-40K. And that's if the loan in question is $100K - if the loan is $400k, you're talking about possibly $2 million with the pay cash vs. keep the 2.5% rate to the bitter end. If this is in a truly HCOL area, the cost of paying off the house just gets higher and higher. Even a very small mortgage of $50K we're likely talking about a six figure consequence to the decision at the end of 30 years.

So I ask this - is that good feeling (and a paid off house does feel great - I do not dispute that at all having twice been there myself when I was younger and dumber) worth $500K or more? Because when you're talking about someone with a sub 3% 30 year mortgage with almost all of that 30 years left, that's the scale of number you should have in mind as to the cost of the decision. Minimum hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly into the millions.

cars+FIRE

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2022, 05:09:39 PM »
So OP's decision here is about $200-600k, not $20-40K. And that's if the loan in question is $100K - if the loan is $400k, you're talking about possibly $2 million with the pay cash vs. keep the 2.5% rate to the bitter end. If this is in a truly HCOL area, the cost of paying off the house just gets higher and higher. Even a very small mortgage of $50K we're likely talking about a six figure consequence to the decision at the end of 30 years.

So I ask this - is that good feeling (and a paid off house does feel great - I do not dispute that at all having twice been there myself when I was younger and dumber) worth $500K or more? Because when you're talking about someone with a sub 3% 30 year mortgage with almost all of that 30 years left, that's the scale of number you should have in mind as to the cost of the decision. Minimum hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly into the millions.

OP here, maybe you can help me with the math based on what I'm actually doing.

BTW, as a result of this thread, I stopped my overpayment beginning with my next mortgage payment on 1/1/23.

The loan was ~$550k @ 2.49%.  I was overpaying by $640/mo.  I owe approx $520k on it now.

Assuming the $640/mo goes into the S&P instead of the house, what does that look like 12 years from now when my youngest is ready to go off to college? What about 28 years from now when the loan matures?

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2022, 05:56:55 PM »
Assuming the $640/mo goes into the S&P instead of the house, what does that look like 12 years from now when my youngest is ready to go off to college? What about 28 years from now when the loan matures?

You can't really know for sure, but over long periods of time the S&P 500 has returned (including dividends) about 10%/year.   So that means in 28 years you'll have about $1 million in your investment account. 

Shorter time frames are tougher.  There have been a few (not many, but a few) 10 year periods when the S&P was negative.  So in 12 years you'll probably be a lot better off, but maybe not.  If you get a 5% return you'll have about $125,000.

The part of the calculation I'm not doing is that if you pay down the mortgage, at some point you will have an extra $640/month to invest PLUS whatever you were paying on the mortgage.   But in calculations I've done for myself, it is too little, too late.  You never catch up to the not paying off the mortgage scenario. 


rmorris50

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2022, 05:40:01 AM »
I think the high risk associated with paying down the mortgage early is from a liquidity perspective, not an asset valuation perspective.

Risk and return of assets deals with standard deviation and mean of a stock's return.  Liquidity may be another concern, but that's not what risk means in the context of "risk and return".

Part of the challenge in a lot of these discussions is that in investing, there are a number of different kinds of risk, but we often shorthand it and assume we are talking about the same thing.
Let’s add miscommunication risk on a financial social board to the list of risks .


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dandarc

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2022, 08:18:27 AM »
So OP's decision here is about $200-600k, not $20-40K. And that's if the loan in question is $100K - if the loan is $400k, you're talking about possibly $2 million with the pay cash vs. keep the 2.5% rate to the bitter end. If this is in a truly HCOL area, the cost of paying off the house just gets higher and higher. Even a very small mortgage of $50K we're likely talking about a six figure consequence to the decision at the end of 30 years.

So I ask this - is that good feeling (and a paid off house does feel great - I do not dispute that at all having twice been there myself when I was younger and dumber) worth $500K or more? Because when you're talking about someone with a sub 3% 30 year mortgage with almost all of that 30 years left, that's the scale of number you should have in mind as to the cost of the decision. Minimum hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly into the millions.

OP here, maybe you can help me with the math based on what I'm actually doing.

BTW, as a result of this thread, I stopped my overpayment beginning with my next mortgage payment on 1/1/23.

The loan was ~$550k @ 2.49%.  I was overpaying by $640/mo.  I owe approx $520k on it now.

Assuming the $640/mo goes into the S&P instead of the house, what does that look like 12 years from now when my youngest is ready to go off to college? What about 28 years from now when the loan matures?
I get about $47,000 difference at 12 years for the 640 payment with that 9% return from the S&P, which is lower than a lot of starting points. For simplicity I assumed you started with 2 years of no extra payment - I get balance of $524K today. Then if you don't pay extra on mortgage your mortgage balance is down to $343K in another 12 years, and the investment has grown to $154K. If you put extra towards mortgage, the balance in 12 years is about $236k.

At end of mortgage 28 years, the difference is starker - 640 / month with that same return grows to $867,000 in 28 years. If you apply that $640 to the mortgage, the mortgage pays off in a little under 20 years, so you have a larger payment of $2810 that has just over 8 years to grow (I got your P&I to be $2170). FV says $391,000. Either way in 28 years you've got a paid off house, but you have $476,000 more in your investment account at the end if you invest the $640 each month vs. putting it towards mortgage.

So if the plan is forever home, and that's how it goes, then you've got a lot more money by keeping the mortgage vs. applying $640 extra per month.

Attaching sheet in case I made a large error here that I've missed, but seems to be in ballpark to me given past reading & exercising these numbers. One slight nod towards conservative is I assume the whole payment each year would be made once at the end of year vs. true monthly.

And keep in mind that while the mortgage paydown at any point can be determined with certainty, there's a range on investments - if you enter a lower number then things tighten up between the "extra" or "no extra" options, if you enter a higher number, then the difference gets larger. Thing is with a rate as low as yours, the odds are heavily in the "no extra" options favor. And final note - really need to be estimating nominal investment returns for this. Because the mortgage payment itself is fixed and doesn't grow with inflation, so you don't need to factor inflation into the analysis. For a lot of stuff it is appropriate to use real returns since most spending we do probably inflates over time, but the mortgage is an exception.

Anyway, I should actually go to my day job today - good luck with it.

dandarc

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2022, 08:23:13 AM »
Incidentally the reason difference is "only" $400k is the decision is between payoff in 20 years (extra payment) vs. 28 (no extra payment). Whereas if you go hard on paying down, or happen to have the ability to pay the whole thing off today, then you're talking 0-5 years (much larger extra payment) vs 28 (no extra payment) - the larger your investment balance is earlier, the bigger the difference.

dandarc

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2022, 11:09:04 AM »
I guess I forgot that your alternative is a high-yield savings account. If you're going to do that, buy bonds that match your duration (maybe 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?) while the yields are high. You can sell them, but if you hold to maturity you are as close to guaranteed to come out ahead as you can be - if the US government defaults on its debt and doesn't quickly make investors whole, then we're in dire straits indeed. I mean, with inflation you won't come out that far ahead and maybe even behind, but on nominal dollars if you've got a 30 year government bond with a higher yield when you buy it than your mortgage rate, then in 30 years you've 100% for sure got more money than paying the debt. But you have to hold to maturity for that to be true - bond prices fluctuate as interest rates over time.

But really the move is to get comfortable with investing because the spread between 8-12% and 2.5% is so much larger than if your returns are just 3.5-4%. Excessively conservative investing is incredibly costly - and actually riskier than the low-volatility alternatives that most people think of. Just the risk is "working far too much for far too long because I have to make ends meet" or "running out of money later in life because the pile never got big enough in the first place" vs. the volatility risk we usually associate with investing decisions.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 11:12:12 AM by dandarc »

MMMarbleheader

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2022, 12:46:01 PM »
I would keep investing and keep the mortgage until FIRE. Personally we are going to pay off our mortgage when we FIRE to:

1) Need less income to get bigger ACA subsidies
2) Cover the majority of our expenses by side hustles/part time fun jobs
3) Big changes in the FAFSA coming.

https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/mn3d83/possible_fire_impacts_starting_immediately_from/

valaraukar

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Re: paying down mortgage no longer making sense?
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2022, 05:39:46 AM »
our mortgage rate is 3%.  We ran the numbers, and we found that with a 3% mortgage it made more sense to plow money into Roth solo 401k and Roth IRAs than to pay off the house as quickly as possible. 

Having said that, we are retiring in 18 years, and worked backwards from that to figure out what additional payment each month would result in the house being paid off by then.  An extra $500/m does that.

So, instead of paying off the house first, then investing, we're putting max effort towards investing, with $500/m towards the early mortgage payoff.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!