paleo vs. vegan

[bluecollarmusician]

Hi all-

First let me please say I would really appreciate it if this does not become a mud slinging match. 

This is a topic that has been discussed and argued about all over the place.  I come here to ask this, as this is a more like minded group of folks... perhaps people who think more alike, even though we may attack problems from different directions. 

I am a (former) personal trainer, who has been pretty fanatic about fitness, training, etc. for the last 15 years or so.  As I have gotten a little older, my goals have changed.... lifting heavier is no longer my ultimate goal.  I enjoy feeling my best, and am big part of that is eating right.

With clients, and in my anecdotal experience, there are people who have had great success with all kinds of diets.

I like aspects of both paleo and vegan style eating.  I am not really into the ideal of completely excluding anything from my diet, but am interested in finding a healthy moderate approach that I can live with.  While I am concerned for the well being of all living things, it is not a factor in terms of my diet choices. 

So- convince me- which way should i go??  Would prefer to hear about the positives you have experienced, and what you were doing before.  No trash talking the competition, unless you have "walked a mile in those moccasins...." :)  Thanks for all you insight....

[MrMyMoney]

I learned my eating style was called paleo or close to it.

Switching to this:

-Have a lot more energy
-Great muscle and strength gains
-Incredible fat loss
-Cholesterol shot up: Good cholesterol is higher than average, bad cholesterol is lower
-Can focus my attention for longer periods of time
-Meat is just tasty (and for every animal you don't eat, I'll eat 3).
-Learned the lipid hypothesis is bullshit.

[marblejane]

Check out this article on vegan vs. paleo- http://www.nomeatathlete.com/vegans-and-paleos/

I think he also did a vegan paleo challenge.

[bluecollarmusician]

Thanks for the great article!  This exactly where I am at, and would enjoy a lot more dialogue of this type...

[August West]

Here is my opinion for what it is worth:  my research has also led me to the conclusion that many types of diet - AND - results vary between individuals. 

"Hey I lost tons of weight and I feel great.  My skin is clear, I have tons of energy, etc. etc."
"How did that happen?"
"I started eating paleo/vegan (circle one)"

A lot of people are starting from a typical american diet with a lot of processed grains, dairy, factory farmed animals, hardly any vegetables.  What do you expect to happen when you clean up your diet by going vegan/paleo(circle one)?

By the way I have been vegan for almost 14 years, I feel great, kill it in the weight room, my skin is clear...............

[the fixer]

I think the paleo thing is a good model for constructing your own diet that works for you, instead of viewing it as an "eat this, not this" strict diet.

Do the paleo elimination of unhealthy foods, one week at a time. Take out sugar. Take out dairy. Take out wheat. etc. See how you feel, and where you notice a difference. This is a baseline.

Now, if you don't want to do everything the way paleo says, try adding stuff back in one food at a time, and watch what happens. If you can tolerate milk, wheat, yogurt, beans, etc. without causing problems then good for you. You could reduce or take meat out entirely and get your protein from those other sources.

The problem is that we're really bad at figuring out which foods we can tolerate and which we can't without doing this. I know people who've misdiagnosed themselves with Celiac or lactose intolerance because they just assumed that one food in their diet was causing them problems, when it may in fact be a different one.

[Russ]

Why do you have to do one or the other? You said it best yourself...

I like aspects of both paleo and vegan style eating.  I am not really into the ideal of completely excluding anything from my diet, but am interested in finding a healthy moderate approach that I can live with.

The benefit of paleo or vegan or whatever "natural food"-based-diet for most people is that they stop eating shit with an infinite shelf life and start eating real food. Seems like you're past that, so why not just eat?

[milla]

Traditional food is my choice. As close to the ground as possible, prepared the long difficult way, mostly plants, meat cooked on the bone, grass fed, homegrown when possible, pastured eggs, organic milk only for small children, extended breastfeeding, etc. No junk. Non-chlorinated water. Bone broth. That kind of thing.
Paleo and vegan are extremes I don't understand. Why on Earth would you think that humans have not adapted in millions of years? Why on Earth would you ignore any and all animal sources of nourishment? The malnourished rich country issue is a relatively new one, there's no need to look back too far. Everything I eat now my grandmother prepared and we only buy ingredients. It's labor intensive, which is good because you don't really need to eat that much anyway.
I like this diet by Michael Pollan: "Eat food. Not a lot. Mostly plants."

[horsepoor]

I've cleaned up my diet and lost over 50# over the last three years.  At first, I was just kind of doing the Standard American version of a "diet" by cutting out sugar and having a sandwich with no mayo on a sandwich thin instead of regular bread tracking my food and counting calories - that kind of thing.  Then I decided to go towards more of a vegetarian/flexitarian diet about 18 months ago, and my weight loss just stalled, even as I was training for a half marathon.  After that, I started veering towards paleo, and now I eat about 80-90% paleo, and have been upping the ante with fat in my diet with good success.  My weight has actually been stable over the past year, but I've put on muscle, so have gotten leaner.  I'm female and have had no problem getting my deadlifts up to 175#, and expect to break the 200# mark before too long. The main non-paleo foods I eat include lentils, white potatoes and rice (also some fermented dairy, which is what separates paleo from primal), but only have them in limited quantities.  Eliminating legumes and then adding them back to my diet made it clear that some of the larger beans are not for me, and I especially avoid kidney beans now.

What I really like about the higher fat/lower carb diet (aside from cooking with butter) is that I don't experience any blood sugar roller coaster effects and can go a long time without eating if need be and am not tempted by the cake and candy and crap that shows up at the office.  I also have no need to track calories with paleo.  I just eat when I'm hungry, make sure I have lots of veggies and some good protein, and if I don't feel satiated, up the fat content.  The food is delicious, and we eat tons of produce each week since empty calories from grains and sugars are mostly eliminated.

[Hotstreak]

Vegan is about a few things you DON'T eat.  No meat, no animals, whatever.

Paleo is about what you DO eat.  Vegetables, fruit, healthy fat, meat, nuts and seeds, mostly.

You can be a horrible vegan, dunking a dozen Oreo cookies in your soy latte extra sugar every morning and lose feeling in your feet due to diabetes in 10 years.  But you're Vegan... so it's good, right?  Well of course it's not.

If you want to be Paleo, and a Vegan, you can completely do both and do it easily.  Just eat Paleo, without meat.  Instead of focusing on "no meat", though, focus on eating all the healthy foods you can and leave meat out as an afterthought.

That being said, I'm not sure WHY you want to be vegan.  Meat is very healthy, nutrient dense food that will help you lead a long, strong, fulfilling life, and most people think it's damn tasty.  Unless you're on some kind of moral crusade, don't cut it out completely, you won't gain anything.

[ashley]

So much for not slinging mud, eh?

[Hotstreak]

So much for not slinging mud, eh?

No mud here, just slinging facts.  If you disagree, everyone would like to read your thoughts.

[Empire Business]

I am on a moral crusade.

OP, you can do both at the same time, but you may need to modify a bit to include legumes for more protein.  I did that for a while but was never completely happy with it and eventually backslid to my evil bread and pasta ways.

[LibraTraci]

Eating a diet that is whole-foods-based is always a good thing, for your body and for your wallet.  Processed foods are expensive and contribute nothing to your health, so as much as possible, it is good to eat the whole foods rather than the-foods-that-are-made-from-whole-foods. 

(This is a little rant I sometimes get into -- it drives me nuts sometimes how mainstream American thinks that something that *comes from* a whole food, is still a whole food.  Garbanzo beans are a whole food -- hummus is a processed food.  Soy beans are a whole food, tofu is a processed food. Blah blah blah, end of rant.)

If you do a little research, there is much data indicating humans don't *need* meat or dairy.  If you accept this premise, then you should base your decision on questions like, 'Do you think it's morally preferable to abstain from animal products?', 'Would your grocery bill be cheaper without animal products?', 'Would your quality of life (enjoyment of meals) be better with animal products despite any cost/moral/health issues?'

Personally, I don't eat meat or dairy, but share very little in common with the many unhealthy vegans who make (calorie rich and processed) vegan versions of the things like mac and cheese, pizza, ice cream and cupcakes.  Vegan does not equal healthy -- healthy equals healthy.

The one thing I would add to the discussion -- after all my ranting! -- is to encourage you to eat whole grains (brown rice, quinoa) and intact tubers (potatoes, yams), no matter whether you add the meat and dairy.  Carbs as a whole have gotten a bad rap as of late, but if you keep the fiber in the food, it is both healthy and satiating.  White-flour-based products just don't fill you up, true enough, but people seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 

On a side note, everyone is really civil here, and with such a volatile topic too.  Good job everyone! 

 

[bluecollarmusician]

Thanks for all the insightful replies... I am interested in hearing from as many people on either side of the aisle. 
One great thing about this interweb is that it allows us at the least to expand our knowledge of people's experience.  I only know x number of adherents to this or that lifestyle type.

Something I often wonder about is our societal obsession with optimum results.... I expect that if we all got on board with being 85% healthy, a lot more people would enjoy a healthy weight, less incidence of disease, and live to a ripe old age.  One piece of my anecdotal evidence is my gramps- he ate without dietary restrictions, always had a healthy weight, never got sick.  At a 100 he was just tired, got sick one day, pretty much said "I'm done folks...did what I came to do, time for me to cross the river" and he was out of here.  For those of you that are Tolkien fans, it was straight up a Numenorian King way to go.

My point is- he just ate a sensible healthy diet that was based around real foods.  He ate a little ice cream every night- because he liked it.  Just a little though...

So- because of my background in fitness, I am pretty fascinated with both paleo and vegan style eating.  I understand especially people who have health that requires certain diet restrictions.  But outside that, I just don't understand the very restrictive way of approaching things.

Most of the health benefits touted by both sides are largely untested (in the long term) or are not controlled for what their previous diet was.... I get a little fired up anytime I read a study touting how much people's "bloodwork" improved when they switched from Vegan to paleo (when the people involved were eating a junk vegan diet, rather than a more whole food style with minimal crap from the store aisles.)

I think that most of the info we read is intentionally skewed to pull us one way or another.  The China Study was a real eye opener for me- and while I don't agree (Or don't want to agree) with all of his conclusions, it is certainly more compelling in that is a long term study those shows real results.

Of course the eskimos have done ok too....  so, hmmmmmm what does that tell us....

[matchewed]

Of course the eskimos have done ok too....  so, hmmmmmm what does that tell us....

Eat a relatively healthy diet, it doesn't matter if it contains grains or meat or dairy or none of those. Exercise and eating well will carry you very far for the most part.

Also framing your discussion as "this vs. that" doesn't really lend itself well to avoiding a contentious discussion. :)

Vegan is about a few things you DON'T eat.  No meat, no animals, whatever.

Paleo is about what you DO eat.  Vegetables, fruit, healthy fat, meat, nuts and seeds, mostly.

??

That doesn't make much sense. Can't I just easily say Paleo is about a few things you DON'T eat. No grains, dairy, whatever.

Vegan is about what you DO eat. Vegetables, fruit, healthy plant derived fat, nuts and seeds, mostly.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to illustrate.

[simonsez]

I treat my diet (a paleo lean but by no means strict) akin to my budget.  I don't really have anything official.  I know which purchases/meals aren't exactly contributing to wealth/health but as long as they are the minority, it's alright and total strictness isn't worth it to me.

I have a vague goal with my diet where I try to average 120-ish grams of carbs per day (vague in that I don't write it down, just lazily keep a mental account of what I've eaten that day).  Fat and protein levels vary depending on if I'm going for weight loss/maintain or muscle building.

I appreciate vegan as a choice as it is clearly the more sustainable on a macro food economy scale.  However, I do enjoy meat and find it easier to consume nutrients when the majority of my diet comes from plants AND animals.  i.e. if I was vegan, I would probably want to supplement for the nutrients that are denser in meats (CoQ10, EPA, DHA, B12, etc.).

BTW-I know Sisson has a bunch of articles all over the place on the merits of fiber itself, but it is either Sisson or Wolf that in their book (Primal Blueprint or Paleo Solution, respectively) talk about how the primal/paleo diet already contains adequate amounts of fiber.  i.e. whole grains are what they are but they aren't necessary to consume an adequate level of fiber via diet.

Been repeated, but do what works for you!  And read!  There are so many benefits to either or an amalgam of these 2 that are better than what the average Westerner eats.  I think too many people put on blinders and think they have to be extreme/strict in their diet and when they aren't (and perhaps do not get the results they desire) they despair and revert all the way back to their conventional Western diet.  If strict works for you, great!  If not, partially eating vegan/paleo is better than not eating vegan/paleo at all.

[jfer_rose]

Check out this article on vegan vs. paleo- http://www.nomeatathlete.com/vegans-and-paleos/

I think he also did a vegan paleo challenge.

Thanks marblejane. I really enjoyed reading this article. For those who have not read it, it discusses how vegans and paleos are more alike than different. Both* diets focus on eating whole foods and that is very contrary to mainstream eating habits.

*obviously, some vegans eat just as much junk food as those with more mainstream diets, but those don't tend to be the vegans who choose their diet for health purposes.

[mrsggrowsveg]

This is the big debate right now.  I have been vegan and I have also been paleo.  I like to think of us more as primal now.  We read a lot of Marks Daily Apple.  I went vegan in order to get healthier and because of my love and respect for animals.  I ended up eating meat again because my iron and b12 levels became dangerously low during pregnancy.  We have a farm and raise pastured pork and chicken.  When I was vegan, I ate a lot of grains and dessert type foods that I made "healthy".  Now, I tend to stay fuller longer and am a bit leaner.  I tend to eat more fruit then recommended for paleo, but my body does really well on fruit.  I do not think there is any one diet that is right for everyone.  I eat what makes me feel healthy.  Sometimes I crave green juice and fruit and other times I really crave meat.  I love eating a primal type of diet because it makes it much easier to eat locally. 

[Elaine]

Honestly I think you have to try a bunch of different things and see what works. I do a lot of research on nutrition and diets (I'm a freelance writer- I mostly write about food, public health, etc.).

After reading literally hundreds of books on every diet/food research under the sun- I've come to a couple of conclusions:

1. We are always looking for the holy grail diet. I don't think it exists. I think your body type, physical activity, genetic makeup, and even ethnicity can contribute to what works for you. I think in the future we will see advanced DNA scanning that provides more information on what is an optimal diet for different people.

2. Eating a lot of red meat isn't great for you, and a lot of milk isn't great for you either. I'm pretty convinced on this point. Am I saying that I am 100%, beyond the shadow of a doubt, positive that this is true for everyone? No. But I would say that the research backing up this statement is very strong. More studies (with more people and over a longer period of time- and no, not just correlative) have been done on this specific dietary block than on just about anything else. You can argue that it's actually the modern production of meat and milk that makes it so bad. That may be, I don't know of any study that compares individuals who don't eat meat or drink milk, with individuals who eat only the purest meat and drink raw milk (though that would be interesting).

As to your question on vegan or paleo- first I would point out that paleo isn't really a new concept. I don't think there's much evidence to support most claims made by the paleo community (blanket statements like NO grains are good for anyone, that humans need lots of meat, etc.) I believe (based on my own experience, interviews, and research)- that many people see lots of positive effects after transitioning to the paleo diet. I don't think this has much to do with the paleo diet itself, or the concepts behind it- but more to do with the side effects anyone would experience when switching from SAD (Standard American Diet) to a whole foods (no sugar, no grains, no processed foods) diet. If you're paleo, you're not eating a lot of garbage junk food- which is great. I do not think it has anything to do with our species needing a ton of meat or grains being poison. In fact there is quite a bit of research that says originally humans probably ate closer to a vegan diet, and populations who eat large amounts of grains have historically had fewer cardiovascular diseases and cancers- not more. However, if you go from eating pizza and spaghetti and ice cream every night, to eating nuts, lean meats, and vegetables- yes, you will probably feel better.

Vegan diets work for some people but not others. It's possible to eat junk food every single day and be vegan, or to eat only pure organic produce and be vegan. I think it's hard to know the full health effects because it is difficult to find huge populations that maintain a vegan diet from cradle to grave- which means many studies don't have a large vegan population to draw from. Vegetarianism has been better documented in studies (especially since it is mandated by certain religions- so you have large populations that are vegetarian their whole lives). There is a good amount of research that supports that a vegetarian diet makes certain diseases significantly less likely (cancer, heart disease, obesity). If you want to play devil's advocate, you could say this is because many vegetarians (who are so for religious reasons at least) also wouldn't be smokers, drug users, or drinkers. It's hard to know. Dietary research is very complicated. I would point anyone who disputes this to The China Study- which is the single most comprehensive study on nutrition ever done. I think the evidence is quite strong that meat (especially red meat) and an excess of dairy has harmful effects.

Personally, I was a vegetarian for 10 years (ages 9-19), I tried vegan for about a year (recently). I also ate a very heavy meat diet for about three years (paleo + grains) (ages 20-23). I have played with my diet a lot, eliminating different things at different times, and here's what works for me:

1. I Need Lots of Fat- I am naturally very thin- If I were an animal I'd probably be a spider monkey, long limbs, super-fast metabolism, but really hard bottom out if I don't get enough fat. I eat a LOT of nuts, avocados (at least 1 a day), and a fair amount of butter. I eat small amounts of cheese, because I love it. I eat eggs very moderately- maybe an average of 3 eggs a week. I don't eat/drink milk, heavy cream, yogurt, or any other dairy products.
 
2. Grains- I eat rice every single day. I also eat spelt bread. I don't really eat any other grains- they seem to make me bloat.

3. Beans, Greens (spinach, collards, etc) & Cruciferous vegetables (broccoli) are not good for me. Same problem as number 2. They also make me feel sluggish.

4. Fruit- I eat a ton of fruit. In the course of a day I may eat on average : 4 oranges, 2 bananas, 2 kiwis, 1 cup grapes, and 1 tomato. Too much sugar does not seem to be an issue for me. I LOVE FRUIT.

5. Vegetables- I eat lots of winter vegetables (sweet potatoes, potatoes, squash). I also eat lots of tomatoes, green beans, zucchini, all kinds of peppers, garlic, ginger, mushrooms, celery, leeks, carrots. 

6. Seafood- I eat a lot of seafood. Mostly shellfish, but I also eat tuna and salmon. I eat heaps of shrimp, clams, oysters, and crab (when I feel fancy). I eat tuna and/or salmon probably twice a week- I eat some kind of seafood every day. I also eat a lot seaweed. I know it's odd- I played with my diet for years and years. Something about seafood just makes my body work like a machine.

7. Red Meat & Poultry- As you probably guessed I don't eat much of this. Maybe a handful of times a year. I don't like my own dietary preferences made an issue- so If I come to your house and you serve me steak and pasta, I will eat it. Very occasionally I will also get a small piece of high quality steak to make myself- this is only when I'm on my period, which makes sense. Occasionally when I have a particularly strong period I will crave red meat (Iron!)- this is pretty normal for women, for me this is the only time I crave red meat, I'd say this happens to me maybe three months out of the year. So other than my 3 time a year "lady steaks" (yep, I went there) and being a good guest, I don't really eat much from this category. I think American poultry is basically garbage- unless you're buying from a farm that you know all about or something, it's just completely pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones.

8. Herbs & Spices- These get overlooked a lot- but herbs have major nutritional value. I strongly spice my meals, because I grew up that way. I feel good when I eat lots of spices and herbs. I don't experience heartburn or upset stomach from even large amounts of curries, paprika, garlic, tumeric, oregano, basil, coriander, etc.

9. I also eat a fair amount of fermented things- like Miso and Kimchi. The health studies are all over the map on fermented foods- it's probably too early to tell for sure how positive the effect is. I haven't seen any research that suggests they're bad for you. I say eat them if you like them, if not skip it. I just like the tangy taste.

[Russ]

Ok so once again this

So- convince me- which way should i go??

contradicts this

So- because of my background in fitness, I am pretty fascinated with both paleo and vegan style eating.  I understand especially people who have health that requires certain diet restrictions.  But outside that, I just don't understand the very restrictive way of approaching things.

so I need some clarification... are you looking for reasons to eat paleo vs. vegan (i.e. you know you want to do one or the other but you can't decide), or are you looking for reasons that either is better than eating a regular diet of whatever-the-fuck-you-want as long as it's real food. Seems more like the second to me now, but I think most of the responses you're getting are to the first.

[adam]

Some anecdotal evidence:

Vegan:
My dad is pre- diabetic (and I'm full blown Type2).  I think he found this out for himself after I was diagnosed, so he went and got a blood glucose meter and was checking himself like once a week or once a month.  Right after I was diagnosed I went basically paleo/primal.  He did some research and decided he would go vegan to try the other side and see what kind of results he got.  He was vegan for 6-10 months I think, and he said when he tested his fasting BG it would be in the 80s instead of 110-120 under his normal diet (which was still pretty healthy, but a mix of meat and grains in there).

Paleo/Primal:
I went primal.  I started exercising a little more (20 min in gym 3x week).  I got off all oral and injected medicine and was maintaining an 80-100 fasting blood glucose.  I should also point out that eating all this fat made my cholesterol numbers better than they had ever been in my life.

The reasons both these diets worked for glucose control seem completely opposite (low carb high fat vs high carb low/no fat).  This is what I remember from that whole experience.  With the Vegan diet you ingest no extra cholesterol, your body makes all you need (and you do need it).  But because you have no extra cholesterol, you insulin receptors are much more sensitive because they're not "clogged up", and you can process all that sugar from the carbs you're eating more efficiently.  On the flip side, the way I was eating just didn't put those carbs in my body in the first place.  My body switched from burning straight glucose as its primary fuel to burning all the fat I was eating instead (and, eventually turning that into glucose).

Both worked.  I like meat too much to try vegan so I stayed with Primal (getting back on the wagon after a few years of being a slacker).  Dad considers going back to Vegan every now and then. 

*I'm no doctor, so don' take the above as medical advice.

[jba302]

This is the primary rule - Eat a variety of whole foods that are as close to the source as possible.

Humans are omnivorous and are capable of functioning with an extremely broad array of food sources, or lack thereof. Cut the shit that makes you feel bad and eat what makes you feel good. If you have Celiac's, don't eat grain. If you have issues with dairy, don't drink milk. If you love the hell out of meat and don't have genetic issues with cholesterol, have at. You can even eat full vegan (which up until modern agriculture was impractical) and be completely healthy with the diversity of foods and supplements available to the modern supermarket shopper.

Just please, for the love of all that is logical, don't post a blog about it being the best thing ever.

[simonsez]

If you love the hell out of meat and don't have genetic issues with cholesterol, have at.

Not sure how that ties in.  Much of the research with cholesterol as it relates to low carb types of diets has that consuming cholesterol itself (e.g. from meat) does not equate to cholesterol (as well as the type, size, etc.) that will be stored in the body.  Much in the same way that fat you consume does not equal fat that will be stored in your adipose tissue.

It actually might be more accurate to say if you DO have genetic issues with cholesterol, eat more meat.  At least, one could argue that in a primal/paleo vein....  :)

Edit: I'm not implying primal/paleo means to eat more meat, either which BTW seems to be floating around in public opinion.  I've heard people say something along the lines of "oh that's the one where you eat more meat like a caveman, right?" in a connection with the word paleo.  Just pointing out one could argue the opposite of what you said and it could be more accurate with regard to paleo/primal type diets.

[jba302]

From what I understand, some people have oddly high cholesterol responses to meat consumption. I don't have much awareness of it because my cholesterol levels are fantastic and I have eaten meat every day other than 2 in memory for the last 20 years :).

I thought of something else. Here are some other diet options you can try that I have heard about in the last couple of years, from memory. I have a lot of bodybuilder/powerlifting friends so I hear this shit CONSTANTLY -

Apex/Predator (if protein poisoning were a dietary goal, this would be the way to do it)
One of the 100 variations of Paleo (This is like dieting lite because you can do virtually whatever you want and call it paleo, just remember to kip while you do)
Atkins Diet (He died from head trauma, not a heart attack)
Mediterranean Diet (except buy your olive oil from Costco and ignore one of the primary components of the diet, true EVOO)
South Beach Diet
Weight Weighters (AKA the partial anorexia diet)
Eat Stop Eat (who needs food EVERY DAY? NOT THIS GUY)
Warrior Diet (I did this, you do in fact get lean as shit but then try to murder people around 2:00 PM)
Intermittent Fasting (Martin Berkham's baby. Strong, sexy, partially insane)
No gluten (Good if you have some sort of gluten issue! Kind of stupid otherwise!)
No dairy (ONLY HUMANS DRANK MILK AFTER THEY BABIES HURRR)
No fat (also known as the kill yourself from depression diet)
Fruititarian (wat? yes, actually a thing)
No carbs after 5 (because insulin is like a reverse vampire)
Carb Backloading (eat carbs within some extremely long time span after working out, but not before working out. unless the two time frames overlap. Good luck.)
Ratio diets (pick a C/P/F ratio and STICK TO THAT BITCH)
Pescatarian (because fish isn't meat somehow)
Vegetarian, including Lacto-ovo-whatevs diet (I only eat veggies and certain arbitrary stages of animals. Ethically justifiable in many cases)
Vegan (First rule of vegan club - Tell everyone you are a vegan and why)
Raw food diet (also called the I don't actually understand the effects of cooking diet)
Gwenyth Paltrow Diet (which is truly an anoxeria diet)
Flexitarian (literally eat veggies unless you choose to eat meat. This might be the weakest will powered creation ever)

Thos are the ones off the top of my head that I have seen on facebook within the last... probably year.

[theglidd]

Best diet.

Eat everything in moderation for a balanced diet.

Exercise daily.

Rinse and repeat.

There is no magic bullet.

[ketchup]

Paleo/primal and vegan folks tend to get very militant towards each other, but they both have a LOT in common.  The real ones at least.  Not the "I have paleo-brownies and paleo-muffins for dinner every day" types or the "I eat Doritos and drink Pepsi but those aren't meat so I'm 100% vegan" types.

Really what it comes down to is JERF (Just Eat Real Food), which both paleo and vegan adhere to (at least as dogma) 100%.  No processed junk.  Local, organic produce.  Properly prepared grains (if you eat them).  Grass-fed (ideally raw) dairy (if you eat it).  Pastured meat (if you eat it).

All of this goes very much against the grain of the "SAD" (Standard American Diet).

Looking back at my childhood, I had a pretty lousy diet until the past few years (I'm 22 now).  Literally around 90% of what I ate through around 19 was cereal, skim milk, wheat bread, peanut butter, pasta, and ketchup.  I was an incredibly stubborn picky eater as a kid.  My parents seemed content with my "relatively healthy, low-fat diet", and had me take a multivitamin.

My girlfriend grew up on Pop Tarts, frozen chicken nuggets, and McDonald's, amongst other things.  She by far ate a lot more variety than I did, but she also ate a lot more specific junk (fast food and loads of candy).  Her mom was content to give her kids the cheapest food possible, without regard for their health (Yes, really.  This woman blows my mind with her lack of empathy, care, or really even love for her children, but I digress.).

I had never really made an effort to change anything about, or really even think about my diet.  I was skinny-fat but not overweight (which is a great way to built apathy towards one's fitness).  She had been slowly, insidiously, gaining weight, and had pretty bad acne.  She had tried Atkins (although essentially a junk-food Atkins) and other "diets" that had no effect on her weight.  Just made her feel deprived and miserable.

I read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes around two years ago, and it really started me on a track of questioning conventional wisdom and actually caring about what I ate in terms of nutrition.  As I did more research and learned more about what I was eating, I began to make small changes, mostly just in adding more variety.  My real goal at that point (while still in a knowledge accumulation phase) was to finally give my diet some variety, but only adding in healthy foods.  Last April we joined a CSA that gave us fresh vegetables every week for the entire growing season.

As this was occurring, my girlfriend became more casually interested in the same sort of thing, but was still hooked on fast food and candy and such.  She would be happy to cook with me, or eat something I had prepared, but she was just as happy to hit Taco Bell.  That all changed last September.  She did a nutritional 180.  She had read a particular article about relating diet to skin, and that set off a big chain reaction with her, and literally within a day everything she or I ate was incredibly healthy.  As we learned more and more, we began getting more and more into it (visiting farms for meat/eggs/dairy, preparing 99% of our meals at home).  Within a month, she was already down 12 lbs, and her skin was clearing up.  She had never experienced that kind of truly effortless weight loss.  At this point, she was far more into it than I was.  She had absolutely no cravings for junk food or sugar.  I think here Scott Adams' philosophy of knowledge being more powerful than willpower applies.  She simply knew that eating it would make her feel like crap.

Here we are months later, and she's down 45 lbs and her skin has a healthy glow to it.  And it is only getting better.  She's continuing to lose weight and improve her skin. 

I'm doing better too.  It's not as dramatic with me, but my skin has also cleared up some, I've lost some of my skinny-fat wheat belly, and I'm convinced that some of my hair loss (yes, I'm 22) has reversed.

We were able to do all this, not by adhering to strict Paleo or Vegan (although we are pretty close to paleo), but simply by eating real, unprocessed, food.  And we're not following a "diet" or going on a "diet".  We changed the way we eat.  We eat for long-term health, not solely for weight loss.  That's what makes this all sustainable.  If she was eating this way just for weight loss, she would lose the weight, and then go back to "normal".  The weight would creep back on, and then after a year it would be time for the next "diet". 

We eat real food.  Pasture-raised meat and eggs, wild-caught fish, (mostly) raw dairy, (mostly) organic fruits and vegetables, obscene amounts of coconut oil, fermented foods, home-made bone broth, olive oil, lots of herbs and spices, occasional white rice and sprouted wheat flour, raw honey, some nuts, and whatever else we feel like.  So naturally, you could probably call us "mostly Paleo".

We don't restrict anything.  Not anything we would want to eat, anyway.  The only time we ever have to worry about "restrictions" or anything like that is when we go out to eat, which has gotten a lot less frequent.  The usual suspect there is processed soy sneaking into things, but we've found that if you request that your food is cooked in butter instead of soybean oil, places are usually willing to do that.  For the same reason we avoid most places' condiments and dressings.  We can always tell afterward if we ate something we shouldn't have.

My point is, we've gotten where we are not necessarily from what we've eaten, but from what we've not eaten.  Paleo and vegan are both in agreement that walking into a Taco Bell is a bad idea.  We watched the documentary "Forks over Knives" the other day.  When we realized it was vehemently pro-vegan, we didn't stop watching it.  We realized we still agreed with 90% of what they had to say, despite some of the junk science (like The China Study) found in most documentaries. 

Paleo and vegan can be as healthy or unhealthy as you make them.  The best advice anyone can get about nutrition is just to avoid junk.  Everything else is just figuring out what works for you, and what you enjoy.

Shit that got long.  tl;dr Eat real food.

[Elaine]

If you love the hell out of meat and don't have genetic issues with cholesterol, have at.

Not sure how that ties in.  Much of the research with cholesterol as it relates to low carb types of diets has that consuming cholesterol itself (e.g. from meat) does not equate to cholesterol (as well as the type, size, etc.) that will be stored in the body.  Much in the same way that fat you consume does not equal fat that will be stored in your adipose tissue.

That's my understanding as well, most current research I have read supports that dietary cholesterol doesn't relate to cholesterol stored in the body. I'm at work so I don't have that info on me, but I'll poke around and post some sources later.

[MrMyMoney]

If you love the hell out of meat and don't have genetic issues with cholesterol, have at.

Not sure how that ties in.  Much of the research with cholesterol as it relates to low carb types of diets has that consuming cholesterol itself (e.g. from meat) does not equate to cholesterol (as well as the type, size, etc.) that will be stored in the body.  Much in the same way that fat you consume does not equal fat that will be stored in your adipose tissue.

That's my understanding as well, most current research I have read supports that dietary cholesterol doesn't relate to cholesterol stored in the body. I'm at work so I don't have that info on me, but I'll poke around and post some sources later.

See my first post. It's called the lipid hypothesis and it has been debunked for a while now.

[bluecollarmusician]

so I need some clarification... are you looking for reasons to eat paleo vs. vegan (i.e. you know you want to do one or the other but you can't decide), or are you looking for reasons that either is better than eating a regular diet of whatever-the-fuck-you-want as long as it's real food. Seems more like the second to me now, but I think most of the responses you're getting are to the first.

Ha! I can see how it would be a little confusing... I think when I said " convince me, which way should I go..." I meant it in more of a metaphorical sense.  I am not going to change my diet due to what strangers on the interweb have to say ;)  but I love the MMM community, and wanted to hear from some folks about the good things (or bad) they have personally experienced.  I am constantly quizzing and polling those that I know personally, and wanted to extend that to this community.  I didn't want to start off by sprouting my own (admittedly) strong thoughts on diet... mostly because I didn't want to color this discussion before it got going... I wanted to hear what others had to say.

I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised by the pervading sensible wisdom that most people seem to display here... just another reason why I favor this forum--- a place where people who disagree can still find a lot of ground to agree on.

As for me- I have no real problem with anyone eating anything.  Diets are funny, faddish, and unnatural... and probably only necessitated but the large amount of "unnatural" food that people tend to eat.  If you are really in touch with yourself  your body will actually tell you what you need.  It is crazy but totally true; it works best when you are active and "clean" (i.e. not a bunch of drugs in your system clouding your senses.) There is plenty of evidence to go easy on dairy, red meat etc., but I see no reason to eliminate them... I enjoy a filet as much as the next guy--- but I probably will not be doing GOMAD weight gain diet any time soon...

You are what you eat most of the time.  Simple as that for me... and it would sure help a lot of folks out there to realize that they don't have to commit to some ridiculous restrictive diet in order to be healthy (not commenting on those who do this and are happy with it--- good for you if you are) but simply need to focus on being good most of the time.

[mollyjade]

I don't think there's any one diet that's right for everyone's health, but I do want to put in a good word for beans, which I think don't get their due often enough. They are inexpensive, are high in protein,are  high in fiber, have resistant starch (i.e., low glycemic index), contain lots o antioxidants (some kinds have more than blueberries), and have been shown to improve blood glucose levels and heart health in lots of studies.

[jba302]

That's my understanding as well, most current research I have read supports that dietary cholesterol doesn't relate to cholesterol stored in the body. I'm at work so I don't have that info on me, but I'll poke around and post some sources later.

You know what, ignore that part of the post. I thought I had read something by a reputable source (specifically that there is a group of people that do have blood cholesterol levels affected by red meat consumption) and I cannot find it for the life of me.

I thusly retract my statement. Green flag to consume more red meat. My thoughts on "diets" stands :).

[Kaminoge]

I'm vegetarian, mostly vegan at home (basically that means I eat cheese/yoghurt when I'm out, those play a huge role in the standard food here so it makes life much easier).

I don't care at all what other people choose to eat. I love the taste of meat and have no issues watching other people eat it. I gave it up because of ethical reasons (which is the reason most vegans I know are vegan - I don't know anyone who did it for their health although they might experience health benefits as a side effect).

If I lived on a farm and had my own chickens which lived a happy life I'd eat the eggs for sure. And probably the chickens too. I actually have no issues with killing animals, it's how we treat them when they're alive that bothers me. That and the antibiotics that are overused in the meat industry.

I'd definitely agree that whatever food sources you choose to eat avoiding processed as much as possible is the best way to be healthy.

[thurston howell iv]

My own results:
Tried to go vegetarian (vegan too tough)- cheated too much.
Tried Paleo. Been with it for 1.5 years. (Can't always do the super strict grass fed stuff but it's pretty clean)

Actual results:

I have had my blood drawn with a full panel to "see" what's going on (mostly higher cholesterol). Numbers were ok but not great before Paleo. After and during paleo with some minor, totally non-scientific experimentation on my part, we saw all the good numbers go up and the bad go down... (Stupid myths like "too many eggs increase cholesterol"- debunked. I eat 6-12 every day. No issues)  I eat lots of meat, lots of fats like almonds and avocados, lots of salads. No "protein shakes or supplements". Just good food.

It's not for everyone but, I have found that if I deviate too much (like having some bread), I'll feel tired and worn down. (and I love bread!)  Anyway, just my .02... 

I've also dropped 20lbs and kept it off. (Doing crossfit regularly might help with that as well!)