Owning Pets Is Anti-Mustachian

[AM43]

I know I am going to get ear full from pet owners here, but I feel that pets are a road block to FIRE.
My uncle who is not well off has a dog that needs operation at cost of 5K and insurance covers only half, so he has to come up with $2500 that he does not have. Through out his live he is had 2 or 3 dogs and each one had health issues that cost him prob at least 15-20K. Also food, care, doctors appointments etc. would add thousands more considering that average dog lives 10-15 years. Agree, Disagree?

[Thegoblinchief]

Despite liking pets, both DW and I completely resist it because of the $, so I agree with you. That said, knowing how passionate pet owners are about their furry family members, I'm not going to actually argue one way or the other.

[merlin7676]

I love animals with a passion...In most cases more than people in fact. I've had plenty of them in the past including horses, reptiles, rats, fish, exotics.
Partner and I really want to adopt a cat right now. But we are holding off b/c yes animals are expensive. But so are human kids and I don't see people saying don't have kids b/c they are anti-mustachian.
To many people (myself included) our pets are our children. So while the partner and I are holding off for now, we will be getting a cat sometime in the not to distant future.

[sbdebeste]

Expensive != anti-Mustachian

[G-dog]

Kids are arguably anti-mustachian too, as are a lot of other choices folks on the forums make every day.
If the premise of mustachianism is that you don't spend any more money than needed for survival, then fine, almost all of us fail under that criteria.
But if it is you prioritize and spend only on things that bring real value / happiness to you, then pets are mustachianism for some of us.

[Schaefer Light]

Kids are more anti-mustachian than pets, though.  If you want to retire earlier, have pets instead of kids.

[lackofstache]

This sort of post seems silly; mustachianism, if it has a true definition, is not to get to FIRE or save $ or anything else like that; it's don't waste $ on things that don't bring you true happiness & live your life in a manner that sets you up to be able to enjoy life for a long time. If kids/pets/whatever bring true happiness, not just momentary pleasure, it would be mustachian to the person owning/raising/doing it.

[norcalmike]

Kids are more anti-mustachian than pets, though.  If you want to retire earlier, have pets instead of kids.

Yup.

[GuitarStv]

As a guy with both a dog and a kid, I can attest that they are both large drains upon your income and a drag on your chances of early retirement.  I like 'em though.

[bobechs]

Yeah!  kids cost more than dogs &cats!

And clown trucks!  What about clown trucks?

And rocket bikes?!?  And burning down the house on the Glorious Fourth of July???

And you can't eat any of that other stuff when times get really tough, like you can with dogs& cats.

So there.

[barbaz]

You can't just look at the costs and conclude that it's a lot of money, if you consider pets as an investment you also have to account for the gain. Mental health and stress relieve are important factors in daily working live and while there are certainly cheaper ways to get those, there are also more expensive ones.

[bobechs]

You can't just look at the costs and conclude that it's a lot of money, if you consider pets as an investment you also have to account for the gain. Mental health and stress relieve are important factors in daily working live and while there are certainly cheaper ways to get those, there are also more expensive ones.

And don't forget the food value of a herd of well-fattened cats. 

And they make more all the time.  For free!

[Sibley]

AM 43 - I think you need to reconsider your definition of what's Mustachian. The point is not to scrimp and save every single penny. The point is to reduce or eliminate unnecessary or bloated expenditures in order to contribute to your financial security and independence while living a full, meaningful life. Someone with more time feel free to find the blog post that says this please :)

Now, since everyone has different ideas of what a "full, meaningful life" is, how you optimize your finances will vary. Some people want a lot of kids. Some people want pets. Some people want fancy cars (oh! the blasphemy!), or a big house, or tons of travel. The important part is that you consider what is important to you, and do what you can to optimize expenses.

[AM43]

AM 43 - I think you need to reconsider your definition of what's Mustachian. The point is not to scrimp and save every single penny. The point is to reduce or eliminate unnecessary or bloated expenditures in order to contribute to your financial security and independence while living a full, meaningful life. Someone with more time feel free to find the blog post that says this please :)

Now, since everyone has different ideas of what a "full, meaningful life" is, how you optimize your finances will vary. Some people want a lot of kids. Some people want pets. Some people want fancy cars (oh! the blasphemy!), or a big house, or tons of travel. The important part is that you consider what is important to you, and do what you can to optimize expenses.

Lets change the topic then to " Owning Pets is Drain on Your Finances".
Is that better?

[ClassyCat]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

[AM43]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

Just ask any pet owner who is had no luck with health issues of their pets.
You can easily spend close to that and dont forget food supplies and doctors appointments.

p.s It was close to 20K for 2-3 dogs that he is owned, not one pet.

[Cassie]

I inherited my son's old big 80lb dog a year ago. It cost us $3000 in emergency medical care & $75 month pain meds plus food, treats, etc. However, because he makes me walk him everyday I have lost 30 lbs & when a dog started to attack me in a park he saved my life. So worth every dime:))

[Bracken_Joy]

So pets are expensive. So what? You approach it like any other facet of life with a MMM bend- how do I reduce my expenses on this thing that I do, since it will stay part of my life, since it makes me happy?

Waterskiing is mustachian if it brings you joy, and meaning. And it's something you should then look at ways of reducing and managing your expenses.

[sabertooth3]

First off, I hate the term "mustachian". It's a bit cultish for my taste; I prefer "frugal" instead. So really what this post comes down to is "Are pets frugal?" And that varies from person to person.

Are you in CC debt with $50k in student loans? Then pets are probably not the right decision for you whether you love them or not. You need to get a handle on your debt and clear it out before taking on any significant financial responsibility, for which pets qualify.

But if you're reading this you probably have a pretty good handle on your finances, so then it comes down to what you really like and want. Do the financial and time commitments weigh more heavily on you than the joy, companionship, health benefits, and happiness that owning pets can bring? If not, then go for it! Get that dog! If it makes you happy and you figure that it's worth the potential costs, then that's what being frugal is all about.

It's the same calculation that frugal people make every day when deciding whether to purchase something or not: do the benefits outweigh the costs? What are your priorities, both in spending money and life in general? Frugality is making conscious decisions about our resource allocation (time, money, health, etc.).

[bsmith]

I'm going to come down a little on the side of the OP here. While people should spend money on what they love, and expensive isn't the same as anti-mustachian, there's a lot of guilt and gouging that vets engage in. I love my dog and have loved every one I've had. Still, there's definitely a dollar limit where I'd starting thinking euthanasia instead. $2500 is above that line.

I recently read some studies about doctors and the ways they want to die. The majority have advanced directives that preclude almost all interventions, including CPR. Almost 100% would refuse chemo. Point being, our culture encourages people to avoid death at all costs. Maybe that's not the best way to look at it.

[Mr. Crackin the Whip]

I do love my dogs and my kids but boy are they expensive! My poor dog is getting old and I probably won't get another one when she dies.

[Basenji]

Love my doggies, they are expensive and we make it extra expensive with all the extras like doggie day care and good food. It doesn't affect our savings that much in the scheme of things because the largest obstacle to FIRE we have is our mortgage. So, yeah, pets cost more money than people sometimes anticipate and if you don't make much money it can eat up a significant chunk o' change. Pets are a luxury that DH and I can incorporate into our plan. Worth it to us. Worth every damn dollar.

[Chris22]

I'm going to come down a little on the side of the OP here. While people should spend money on what they love, and expensive isn't the same as anti-mustachian, there's a lot of guilt and gouging that vets engage in. I love my dog and have loved every one I've had. Still, there's definitely a dollar limit where I'd starting thinking euthanasia instead. $2500 is above that line.

I recently read some studies about doctors and the ways they want to die. The majority have advanced directives that preclude almost all interventions, including CPR. Almost 100% would refuse chemo. Point being, our culture encourages people to avoid death at all costs. Maybe that's not the best way to look at it.

But there are pet medical bills that are completely unrelated to life or death.  My dog has, over his 7-year life, had about $5k worth of knee surgeries (about $2k ea, plus other various xrays, vet visits, etc; not all at the same time thankfully).  He is now (knock on wood) perfectly healthy, and none of it was about extending a dismal life.

And yeah, $5k is a shitload of money, and no I can't rationalize it in any way at all, except that I wanted to spend it to keep him around and healthy because he's fucking awesome and makes my wife and I happy.

Frankly, posts like the OPs are a reason the "mustachian" (God I hate that phrase) mentality gets the rap that it does, a bunch of people living like they're homeless so they can quit working and continue to live like they're homeless.  If you don't do anything with your money to make yourself happy, well what the fuck point is there?  Just go eat a pistol, the price of bullets has come back down.

[gt7152b]

Easy solution: No surgery or Prozac for pets. They still cost quite a bit in basic maintenance care, food, and boarding but a surgery costing several thousand dollars is not a necessity. I love my pets but they don't have the same value as humans. Call me heartless if you want but if I have to put my pet down then I cherish the time I've had with them and move on to saving a perfectly healthy pet from being euthanized because nobody wanted it.

[bobechs]

It's the same calculation that frugal people make every day when deciding whether to purchase something or not: do the benefits outweigh the costs? What are your priorities, both in spending money and life in general? Frugality is making conscious decisions about our resource allocation (time, money, health, etc.).

This is a rational gloss on what for many is anything but a rational calculation.  You can see it in this thread where posters refer to dogs & cats as "investments" which is one of those dog-whistle words when people are talking about are actually their discretionary and even luxury expenses.

In other threads on this forum, and throughout life, pet people will proclaim proudly that such expenses, however extreme, are utterly beyond any examination.  Whatever they spend appears to them a sacred obligation and even a perverse joy.

It ranges from the mild; dedicating a fenced-in third of the surface area of a homesite to a grassy area for the family dog to poop in and bark at whatever passes by, to the truly disturbed; cat ladies living in a closed house with dozens of semi-feral cats and scrimping on heat and light to feed the herd.

I'd like it if pet-driven decisions were as clear-headed as you propose, and I can't say they never are.  But in my experience they verge all too often on cray-cray when examined from across the street.

[I'm a red panda]

Owning pets is a cost that each person must determine if it is "worth it" to them.

Many mustachians have hobbies ranging from golf to private airplanes that cost money.  Some people choose pets.

I'm not seeing it as anti-mustachian at all. MMM himself has hobbies I consider frivolous and spendy.

Owning a pet you cannot afford is another matter.

[bsmith]

Quote from: bsmith on Today at 08:32:08 AM

    I'm going to come down a little on the side of the OP here. While people should spend money on what they love, and expensive isn't the same as anti-mustachian, there's a lot of guilt and gouging that vets engage in. I love my dog and have loved every one I've had. Still, there's definitely a dollar limit where I'd starting thinking euthanasia instead. $2500 is above that line.

    I recently read some studies about doctors and the ways they want to die. The majority have advanced directives that preclude almost all interventions, including CPR. Almost 100% would refuse chemo. Point being, our culture encourages people to avoid death at all costs. Maybe that's not the best way to look at it.


But there are pet medical bills that are completely unrelated to life or death.  My dog has, over his 7-year life, had about $5k worth of knee surgeries (about $2k ea, plus other various xrays, vet visits, etc; not all at the same time thankfully).  He is now (knock on wood) perfectly healthy, and none of it was about extending a dismal life.

And yeah, $5k is a shitload of money, and no I can't rationalize it in any way at all, except that I wanted to spend it to keep him around and healthy because he's fucking awesome and makes my wife and I happy.

Frankly, posts like the OPs are a reason the "mustachian" (God I hate that phrase) mentality gets the rap that it does, a bunch of people living like they're homeless so they can quit working and continue to live like they're homeless.  If you don't do anything with your money to make yourself happy, well what the fuck point is there?  Just go eat a pistol, the price of bullets has come back down.

I *did* specifically say people should spend money on what they love.

Luxating medial patella has four grades. Vets often recommend surgery at 2 or higher, which is ridiculous. I've got a dog at a 2 now. Regardless, how much you are willing to pay is your own choice. I never said I was judging anyone who spent more than I would on their dog. I just said I have a limit, and other people should consider one as well.

[ClassyCat]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

Just ask any pet owner who is had no luck with health issues of their pets.
You can easily spend close to that and dont forget food supplies and doctors appointments.

p.s It was close to 20K for 2-3 dogs that he is owned, not one pet.

Alright, let's look at the costs for my own cat. I give my cat high-quality food because it helps maintain health and prevent things like diabetes down the road. It's roughly $1 a day for me to feed him. He also has a vet checkup every couple years, but let's assume it's each year just for a worst case scenario. That comes out to $365 for food and $50 for vet visits. I also buy cat litter that's $13 every two months. $13 x 6 = $78. Finally, there's heartworm + flea/tick preventatives. These cost me $50 a year because I get a good deal on them from my vet.

$365 + $50 + $78 + $50  = $543

If I have the cat for 15 years, it'll be $543 x 15 = $8,145. Because illness is more common as animals age, let's throw in some random expenses. Past the age of 10, I'll say it costs me $1,000 every year because of an illness that occurs. So $8,145 + $5,000 = $13,145. Let's also add another $1,000 for a lifetime of toys, beds, and treats, even though that number is far too high.

The grand total is $14,145, for the life of this cat that brings me happiness on a daily basis for 15 years. That's a hell of a lot less than many people spend on their cars, for a living creature that actively brings me joy. That's a pretty sweet deal, if you ask me. If you want to get more extreme, throw another $4,000 in there for a major medical event. $18,145 total. I still think that's a sweet deal for 15 years of kitty. Some people may disagree, but I'm an animal lover and they make my days brighter. So no, I don't think $18,000 (a pretty worst case scenario number) is anti-mustachian for 15 years of happiness with an animal I love.

Basically, apply this same logic to any number of hobbies that people here have, like traveling. Should people stop traveling altogether? Golfing? It's all about what makes your life better, and it's all relative.

[Zikoris]

Meh. My cat doesn't cost much. According to Mint I spent $288.95 on him last year. I don't intend to have any more cats after he passes on though. Though adopting him was not planned in the slightest, so who knows - I do have a soft spot for homeless kitties.

[iamlittlehedgehog]

I'm not going to delude myself into thinking my pets are mustachian. They aren't. They are very expensive and time consuming. But that is the choice I made and I budget that into my saving and spending.
That said I'll echo above and mention children aren't frugal either, and it is generally frowned upon to consider putting them down if the costs become prohibitive (yes, I'm joking - unbunch your knickers)

In short we all have hobbies and or facets of our lifestyles someone would probably call out as un-mustachian or expensive.

[Chris22]

Quote from: bsmith on Today at 08:32:08 AM

    I'm going to come down a little on the side of the OP here. While people should spend money on what they love, and expensive isn't the same as anti-mustachian, there's a lot of guilt and gouging that vets engage in. I love my dog and have loved every one I've had. Still, there's definitely a dollar limit where I'd starting thinking euthanasia instead. $2500 is above that line.

    I recently read some studies about doctors and the ways they want to die. The majority have advanced directives that preclude almost all interventions, including CPR. Almost 100% would refuse chemo. Point being, our culture encourages people to avoid death at all costs. Maybe that's not the best way to look at it.

But there are pet medical bills that are completely unrelated to life or death.  My dog has, over his 7-year life, had about $5k worth of knee surgeries (about $2k ea, plus other various xrays, vet visits, etc; not all at the same time thankfully).  He is now (knock on wood) perfectly healthy, and none of it was about extending a dismal life.

And yeah, $5k is a shitload of money, and no I can't rationalize it in any way at all, except that I wanted to spend it to keep him around and healthy because he's fucking awesome and makes my wife and I happy.

Frankly, posts like the OPs are a reason the "mustachian" (God I hate that phrase) mentality gets the rap that it does, a bunch of people living like they're homeless so they can quit working and continue to live like they're homeless.  If you don't do anything with your money to make yourself happy, well what the fuck point is there?  Just go eat a pistol, the price of bullets has come back down.

I *did* specifically say people should spend money on what they love.

Luxating medial patella has four grades. Vets often recommend surgery at 2 or higher, which is ridiculous. I've got a dog at a 2 now. Regardless, how much you are willing to pay is your own choice. I never said I was judging anyone who spent more than I would on their dog. I just said I have a limit, and other people should consider one as well.
[/quote]

My dog was grade 4 on one knee almost from birth, and went to grade 4 about a year ago on the other.  We had them fixed when they impacted his quality of life (affected his ability to walk and play) not when the vet told us to. 

My point was just that there's a difference between a $2500 surgery on a 15 year old dog trying to get him to 16, and a $2500 surgery on a 6 month old otherwise playful and happy puppy.

[AM43]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

Just ask any pet owner who is had no luck with health issues of their pets.
You can easily spend close to that and dont forget food supplies and doctors appointments.

p.s It was close to 20K for 2-3 dogs that he is owned, not one pet.

Alright, let's look at the costs for my own cat. I give my cat high-quality food because it helps maintain health and prevent things like diabetes down the road. It's roughly $1 a day for me to feed him. He also has a vet checkup every couple years, but let's assume it's each year just for a worst case scenario. That comes out to $365 for food and $50 for vet visits. I also buy cat litter that's $13 every two months. $13 x 6 = $78. Finally, there's heartworm + flea/tick preventatives. These cost me $50 a year because I get a good deal on them from my vet.

$365 + $50 + $78 + $50  = $543

If I have the cat for 15 years, it'll be $543 x 15 = $8,145. Because illness is more common as animals age, let's throw in some random expenses. Past the age of 10, I'll say it costs me $1,000 every year because of an illness that occurs. So $8,145 + $5,000 = $13,145. Let's also add another $1,000 for a lifetime of toys, beds, and treats, even though that number is far too high.

The grand total is $14,145, for the life of this cat that brings me happiness on a daily basis for 15 years. That's a hell of a lot less than many people spend on their cars, for a living creature that actively brings me joy. That's a pretty sweet deal, if you ask me. If you want to get more extreme, throw another $4,000 in there for a major medical event. $18,145 total. I still think that's a sweet deal for 15 years of kitty. Some people may disagree, but I'm an animal lover and they make my days brighter. So no, I don't think $18,000 (a pretty worst case scenario number) is anti-mustachian for 15 years of happiness with an animal I love.

Basically, apply this same logic to any number of hobbies that people here have, like traveling. Should people stop traveling altogether? Golfing? It's all about what makes your life better, and it's all relative.

Thats $18000 + 7-10% interest you could have earned that you will never be able to spend on yourself.

[Chris22]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

Just ask any pet owner who is had no luck with health issues of their pets.
You can easily spend close to that and dont forget food supplies and doctors appointments.

p.s It was close to 20K for 2-3 dogs that he is owned, not one pet.

Alright, let's look at the costs for my own cat. I give my cat high-quality food because it helps maintain health and prevent things like diabetes down the road. It's roughly $1 a day for me to feed him. He also has a vet checkup every couple years, but let's assume it's each year just for a worst case scenario. That comes out to $365 for food and $50 for vet visits. I also buy cat litter that's $13 every two months. $13 x 6 = $78. Finally, there's heartworm + flea/tick preventatives. These cost me $50 a year because I get a good deal on them from my vet.

$365 + $50 + $78 + $50  = $543

If I have the cat for 15 years, it'll be $543 x 15 = $8,145. Because illness is more common as animals age, let's throw in some random expenses. Past the age of 10, I'll say it costs me $1,000 every year because of an illness that occurs. So $8,145 + $5,000 = $13,145. Let's also add another $1,000 for a lifetime of toys, beds, and treats, even though that number is far too high.

The grand total is $14,145, for the life of this cat that brings me happiness on a daily basis for 15 years. That's a hell of a lot less than many people spend on their cars, for a living creature that actively brings me joy. That's a pretty sweet deal, if you ask me. If you want to get more extreme, throw another $4,000 in there for a major medical event. $18,145 total. I still think that's a sweet deal for 15 years of kitty. Some people may disagree, but I'm an animal lover and they make my days brighter. So no, I don't think $18,000 (a pretty worst case scenario number) is anti-mustachian for 15 years of happiness with an animal I love.

Basically, apply this same logic to any number of hobbies that people here have, like traveling. Should people stop traveling altogether? Golfing? It's all about what makes your life better, and it's all relative.

Thats $18000 + 7-10% interest you could have earned that you will never be able to spend on yourself.

Except most people argue having a pet IS spending it on yourself. 

[ClassyCat]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

Just ask any pet owner who is had no luck with health issues of their pets.
You can easily spend close to that and dont forget food supplies and doctors appointments.

p.s It was close to 20K for 2-3 dogs that he is owned, not one pet.

Alright, let's look at the costs for my own cat. I give my cat high-quality food because it helps maintain health and prevent things like diabetes down the road. It's roughly $1 a day for me to feed him. He also has a vet checkup every couple years, but let's assume it's each year just for a worst case scenario. That comes out to $365 for food and $50 for vet visits. I also buy cat litter that's $13 every two months. $13 x 6 = $78. Finally, there's heartworm + flea/tick preventatives. These cost me $50 a year because I get a good deal on them from my vet.

$365 + $50 + $78 + $50  = $543

If I have the cat for 15 years, it'll be $543 x 15 = $8,145. Because illness is more common as animals age, let's throw in some random expenses. Past the age of 10, I'll say it costs me $1,000 every year because of an illness that occurs. So $8,145 + $5,000 = $13,145. Let's also add another $1,000 for a lifetime of toys, beds, and treats, even though that number is far too high.

The grand total is $14,145, for the life of this cat that brings me happiness on a daily basis for 15 years. That's a hell of a lot less than many people spend on their cars, for a living creature that actively brings me joy. That's a pretty sweet deal, if you ask me. If you want to get more extreme, throw another $4,000 in there for a major medical event. $18,145 total. I still think that's a sweet deal for 15 years of kitty. Some people may disagree, but I'm an animal lover and they make my days brighter. So no, I don't think $18,000 (a pretty worst case scenario number) is anti-mustachian for 15 years of happiness with an animal I love.

Basically, apply this same logic to any number of hobbies that people here have, like traveling. Should people stop traveling altogether? Golfing? It's all about what makes your life better, and it's all relative.

Thats $18000 + 7-10% interest you could have earned that you will never be able to spend on yourself.

Okay? So $1,800 in interest. What would you like me to buy myself? Clothes? I don't want clothes, I have plenty from the thrift shop. Exotic food? I love cereal, beans, rice, and veggies. Occasional chicken. A bigger house? I don't like huge spaces that I have to clean and pay more to heat/cool. A new car? That's idiotic. So guess how I choose to spend my money? My cat! You act like it's a dreaded expense that eats up money I'd rather pour into material possessions. Spoiler alert: not true.

Are you unable to see that people gain happiness from different things in life? Are you saying that we should give up anything beyond the bare necessities in order to gain FI? Animals improve my life tremendously for a small cost, and given my frugality in almost every other aspect of my life, FI is easily achievable alongside them, without sacrificing my own happiness.

[AM43]

As others have said, this argument can easily be applied to kids, which are more expensive than pets. But just like kids, people have pets because of the joy they bring. To avoid that joy purely for monetary purposes would be more anti-mustachian, in my opinion. Besides, I would say it's more uncommon to have a pet cost $20,000 in operations. Similarly, you could have a kid who needs $50,000 worth of surgery that isn't covered, but you don't avoid kids just because of that what-if scenario.

The new topic isn't any better, because again you can complain "having kids is a drain on your finances." You don't see people doing that as much because kids bring happiness (to some people). Just like pets bring happiness.

Just ask any pet owner who is had no luck with health issues of their pets.
You can easily spend close to that and dont forget food supplies and doctors appointments.

p.s It was close to 20K for 2-3 dogs that he is owned, not one pet.

Alright, let's look at the costs for my own cat. I give my cat high-quality food because it helps maintain health and prevent things like diabetes down the road. It's roughly $1 a day for me to feed him. He also has a vet checkup every couple years, but let's assume it's each year just for a worst case scenario. That comes out to $365 for food and $50 for vet visits. I also buy cat litter that's $13 every two months. $13 x 6 = $78. Finally, there's heartworm + flea/tick preventatives. These cost me $50 a year because I get a good deal on them from my vet.

$365 + $50 + $78 + $50  = $543

If I have the cat for 15 years, it'll be $543 x 15 = $8,145. Because illness is more common as animals age, let's throw in some random expenses. Past the age of 10, I'll say it costs me $1,000 every year because of an illness that occurs. So $8,145 + $5,000 = $13,145. Let's also add another $1,000 for a lifetime of toys, beds, and treats, even though that number is far too high.

The grand total is $14,145, for the life of this cat that brings me happiness on a daily basis for 15 years. That's a hell of a lot less than many people spend on their cars, for a living creature that actively brings me joy. That's a pretty sweet deal, if you ask me. If you want to get more extreme, throw another $4,000 in there for a major medical event. $18,145 total. I still think that's a sweet deal for 15 years of kitty. Some people may disagree, but I'm an animal lover and they make my days brighter. So no, I don't think $18,000 (a pretty worst case scenario number) is anti-mustachian for 15 years of happiness with an animal I love.

Basically, apply this same logic to any number of hobbies that people here have, like traveling. Should people stop traveling altogether? Golfing? It's all about what makes your life better, and it's all relative.

Thats $18000 + 7-10% interest you could have earned that you will never be able to spend on yourself.

Okay? So $1,800 in interest. What would you like me to buy myself? Clothes? I don't want clothes, I have plenty from the thrift shop. Exotic food? I love cereal, beans, rice, and veggies. Occasional chicken. A bigger house? I don't like huge spaces that I have to clean and pay more to heat/cool. A new car? That's idiotic. So guess how I choose to spend my money? My cat! You act like it's a dreaded expense that eats up money I'd rather pour into material possessions. Spoiler alert: not true.

Are you unable to see that people gain happiness from different things in life? Are you saying that we should give up anything beyond the bare necessities in order to gain FI? Animals improve my life tremendously for a small cost, and given my frugality in almost every other aspect of my life, FI is easily achievable alongside them, without sacrificing my own happiness.

What I am saying is you should eliminate unnecessary expenses.
Food and shelter are necessary, pets are luxury just like fancy cars.

[Lanthiriel]

One of the main reasons I love my dog is because having him around means there is always another heartbeat in the house. I don't like to be alone, so I married young and got a dog. There is always someone in my house to talk to, interact with, and cuddle. When my husband had to be away for three months for work, my dog basically saved my sanity. While my dog is VERY expensive (allergies), he's much cheaper than therapy.

[G-dog]

What I am saying is you should eliminate unnecessary expenses.
Food and shelter are necessary, pets are luxury just like fancy cars.

MMM may actually argue that ALL cars are a luxury.

This is beginning to feel rather troll-like to me...

[Bracken_Joy]

What I am saying is you should eliminate unnecessary expenses.
Food and shelter are necessary, pets are luxury just like fancy cars.

So you're deciding that he or she should eliminate all unnecessary expenses? Why? They said their pet brings them enjoyment. That is what they want to spend their money on. The whole point of frugality is to have the money to have the freedom to do what you want, not to live like a pauper in every aspect.

I could save money by living in my car, but I sure as hell am not going to do that because I like having a home. I could eat *just* beans and rice, but I don't, because I like a variety of foods.

What the hell is the point of life if you sit in one place and never do anything that costs a single dime? That is just silly and short sighted.

[bobechs]

One of the main reasons I love my dog is because having him around means there is always another heartbeat in the house. I don't like to be alone, so I married young and got a dog. There is always someone in my house to talk to, interact with, and cuddle. When my husband had to be away for three months for work, my dog basically saved my sanity. While my dog is VERY expensive (allergies), he's much cheaper than therapy.

And since your doggy likely could not come along on an exploration of the planets, it is saving you the cost of a private manned spaceflight program. 

Now that puts you billions of dollars to the good.

[FLA]

I will always have one dog from the shelter. I love dogs and truly have been unhappy during dog-less periods of life.  They can be expensive, but I have not been overburdened by expense.  I had a dog riddled with cancer, chemo was offered. I worked for hospice and we did that type of care instead, he was kept home and comfortable, without expensive chemo when it was obvious looking at him that this dog was not long for this world. No one pushed the chemo thing. 

I've had a change in finances, I explained that to the vet a few months back, she stopped certain vaccines older dogs no longer require.  She is big into putting the dog under and giving dental care for $700. She said they could use it but if I can't afford it, it's fine, they are not experiencing dental issues. And she gave me a discount, I've gone to her forever. 

now that I'm disabled, I will not meet my financial goals, cost of dogs (eventually one dog) are factored in and I will go without tons of stuff, I will cut every corner I have to, to have a dog.

[cars+FIRE]

What I am saying is you should eliminate unnecessary expenses.
Food and shelter are necessary, pets are luxury just like fancy cars.

It seems like everyone who has a pet here has done the math to conclude that it's worth the incremental increase in their FIRE date.

AM43, do you feel the same way about kids?

[Kaspian]

I don't think pets are anti-Mustachian.  If you're hitting your 50%+ saving rate, then it's not really an issue.  Travel also isn't anti-Mustachian.  Buying a Hummer and then driving 3 minutes to work where you have to pay for monthly parking is definitely anti-Mustachian.

[Blatant]

AM43 sounds like a really fun person to hang out with.

[bobechs]

It seems like everyone who has a pet here has done the math to conclude that it's worth the incremental increase in their FIRE date.

If by do the math you mean mostly not do the math, I'd have to agree with you.

[FLA]

I will always have one dog from the shelter. I love dogs and truly have been unhappy during dog-less periods of life.  They can be expensive, but I have not been overburdened by expense.  I had a dog riddled with cancer, chemo was offered. I worked for hospice and we did that type of care instead, he was kept home and comfortable, without expensive chemo when it was obvious looking at him that this dog was not long for this world. No one pushed the chemo thing. 

I've had a change in finances, I explained that to the vet a few months back, she stopped certain vaccines older dogs no longer require.  She is big into putting the dog under and giving dental care for $700. She said they could use it but if I can't afford it, it's fine, they are not experiencing dental issues. And she gave me a discount, I've gone to her forever. 

now that I'm disabled, I will not meet my financial goals, cost of dogs (eventually one dog) are factored in and I will go without tons of stuff, I will cut every corner I have to, to have a dog.

this makes it sound like I cannot afford my dogs.  I can choose to take money from retirement vehicles now and know how much I can take and never touch the principle.  I am choosing not to do that and try to live solely on disability. So they are factored into my budget for disability. However, if the need arose, I can use some retirement safety net monies. It's too soon to know for sure if I will be able to do it all on a disability budget. 

dogs, especially rescued ones, are luxuries? I cannot think of a single luxury I want or have more than my luxurious rescues.  I'm sorry but that is absurd

[Sibley]

What I am saying is you should eliminate unnecessary expenses.
Food and shelter are necessary, pets are luxury just like fancy cars.

MMM may actually argue that ALL cars are a luxury.

This is beginning to feel rather troll-like to me...

Beginning?

[FrugalTravelGal]

There is no doubt that kids and pets are money pits! However, I can't imagine my life without my 3 kids. We are also on our 2nd cat (age 4), after our first cat died at age 13. Our cat is a beloved member of our household, although we treat him like a pet and not like one of our children.

There is no shortage of opportunities to spend money  - whether it's for  one's pets, kids, or self.  Spend your money on things that are important to you, and don't worry that someone else on the internet thinks differently!

[iamlindoro]

This post is timely.  I am a multiple dog owner, and have always read the opinion on whether pets were objectively "Mustachian" with some interest (and often more than a little disagreement).  I had been working on a post for my new blog about finding cost savings on your pets, and it seemed relevant here.  I started writing it when I got the animal license renewal form from my city, and found some options to get the rabies vaccination we need to get done for $6.

http://frugalvagabond.com/2015/08/13/saving-on-pets-best-care-bottom-dollar/

Personally, I think pets are obviously not an investment in the traditional "expect a tangible return" sense, but they are deeply Mustachian to me in the "carve away that which does not make you intensely happy" way.

[ClassyCat]

Okay? So $1,800 in interest. What would you like me to buy myself? Clothes? I don't want clothes, I have plenty from the thrift shop. Exotic food? I love cereal, beans, rice, and veggies. Occasional chicken. A bigger house? I don't like huge spaces that I have to clean and pay more to heat/cool. A new car? That's idiotic. So guess how I choose to spend my money? My cat! You act like it's a dreaded expense that eats up money I'd rather pour into material possessions. Spoiler alert: not true.

Are you unable to see that people gain happiness from different things in life? Are you saying that we should give up anything beyond the bare necessities in order to gain FI? Animals improve my life tremendously for a small cost, and given my frugality in almost every other aspect of my life, FI is easily achievable alongside them, without sacrificing my own happiness.

What I am saying is you should eliminate unnecessary expenses.
Food and shelter are necessary, pets are luxury just like fancy cars.

Gotcha, so eliminate anything else in my life beyond food or shelter, despite the fact that I live on 35% of my income. Sounds pretty groovy.

[GuitarStv]

Easy solution: No surgery or Prozac for pets. They still cost quite a bit in basic maintenance care, food, and boarding but a surgery costing several thousand dollars is not a necessity. I love my pets but they don't have the same value as humans. Call me heartless if you want but if I have to put my pet down then I cherish the time I've had with them and move on to saving a perfectly healthy pet from being euthanized because nobody wanted it.

I used to think the same.  It's different when the situation is in front of you though.

Last winter my rescue beagle of several years stopped eating (very unusual for a beagle).  We took her down to the vet, he didn't know what was wrong and sent us back.  She seemed to be having some kind of problem with her mouth, would pick up food, then yelp in pain and drop it.  This went on for two days.  On the third day when we woke up in the morning, our dog had a severely distended left eyeball . . . it was popping out of her head and she was obviously in some pretty horrific pain (panting and panting, refused to stand, shaking and trembling).

We went down to the emergency pet hospital, had her looked at and the vet there thought that she had developed an abscess.  He wanted to sedate her, then lance and drain the abscess from the roof of her mouth.  Total costs were estimated at around 1800$ for the follow up drugs, anesthetics, couple night stay in the pet hospital and surgery.  I paid it, without hesitation.  Our dog recovered in about a week, and is perfectly healthy now.  Absolutely worth it to me, not to have my dog senselessly die confused and in agony.  It was one of the times that I was really thankful to have arranged my life to where dropping a couple of grand for a loved one is not an unbearable financial hardship.