Owe $8K in taxes....cannot wait to FIRE!!!

[Giro]

I hate doing taxes and building up my anger inch by inch.

It is slightly less than last year but it's still a HUGE chunk of change.  The good thing is that the reasons we owe are that we both earn similar high incomes, have self-employment income and a military pension.  the bad thing is we owe $8K. 

One of both of us could FIRE and instantly drop down to the low tax bracket and not owe a dime in taxes.  :) 

[CheapskateWife]

So why don't you? 

[MoneyCat]

You should move to "Forbes America".  They have a flat tax of only $1!  Here's the link for more info: https://screen.yahoo.com/forbes-america-000000789.html

[Mississippi Mudstache]

And this angers you? I got paid by the federal government last year because they didn't think I earned enough. This year I owe $2000 because I earned $30,000 more. You think I'm complaining about my lot in life? (Hint: I'm not.)

Take a deep breath and count your blessings pay stubs.

[Giro]

anger is the wrong word.  I love my life and count my blessings on the daily.  still doesn't mean I like to write a check for $8000! 

I don't think I'm quite emotionally ready to retire and I sorta enjoy my job.  easy money, as they say.  My hubs wants to work for another few years to get his full retirement pension.  shrug. 

still, $8k is more than I spent on myself for the whole of last year.  I'm sure the government will spend it well.  ha

[skyrefuge]

Two high incomes plus a pension, and you only have to pay $8K in taxes?! Sounds like the world's most incredible deal to me; what the heck are you bitching about? I had to pay nearly $20k in federal taxes last year.

Oh, or do just mean that at filing time, you discovered that your estimate of the amount of taxes you had to pay was off by $8k? That still seems like a silly and meaningless thing to bitch about. I can understand being unhappy with the total amount of your tax burden, but why does the settle-up amount bother you? That's like buying a furniture set and being pissed that the store lets you pay the final 30% of your bill a year later. "Grr, I'm so angry at them for letting me hold onto this money all year!!"

[SaintM]

Two high incomes plus a pension, and you only have to pay $8K in taxes?! Sounds like the world's most incredible deal to me; what the heck are you bitching about? I had to pay nearly $20k in federal taxes last year.

I wonder if that is his total income tax for the year or the check he has to write by Apr 15.

I don't have half of the documentation I need to file my taxes, but I estimate that I will owe $24k for the year and will write a check for $7k.  As much as this pains me, it's only a 7.5% effective tax rate.

And if you wonder, neither of us FIREs because we are both still working towards that military pension.

[stuckinmn]

Two high incomes plus a pension, and you only have to pay $8K in taxes?! Sounds like the world's most incredible deal to me; what the heck are you bitching about? I had to pay nearly $20k in federal taxes last year.

I wonder if that is his total income tax for the year or the check he has to write by Apr 15.

I don't have half of the documentation I need to file my taxes, but I estimate that I will owe $24k for the year and will write a check for $7k.  As much as this pains me, it's only a 7.5% effective tax rate.

And if you wonder, neither of us FIREs because we are both still working towards that military pension.

You paid 24k tax on 320k of income?   I need your accountant.

[Giro]

Two high incomes plus a pension, and you only have to pay $8K in taxes?! Sounds like the world's most incredible deal to me; what the heck are you bitching about? I had to pay nearly $20k in federal taxes last year.

I wonder if that is his total income tax for the year or the check he has to write by Apr 15.

I don't have half of the documentation I need to file my taxes, but I estimate that I will owe $24k for the year and will write a check for $7k.  As much as this pains me, it's only a 7.5% effective tax rate.

And if you wonder, neither of us FIREs because we are both still working towards that military pension.

You paid 24k tax on 320k of income?   I need your accountant.

Yea, it's just the check we have to write..  We paid $32k and owe another $8k.  I need your Accountant because we barely made $300K and paid $40K to federal taxes.  how in the hell did you only pay $24k on $320K????  AWESOME JOB.  I'm jealous.

[OutBy40]

anger is the wrong word.  I love my life and count my blessings on the daily.  still doesn't mean I like to write a check for $8000! 

I don't think I'm quite emotionally ready to retire and I sorta enjoy my job.  easy money, as they say.  My hubs wants to work for another few years to get his full retirement pension.  shrug. 

still, $8k is more than I spent on myself for the whole of last year.  I'm sure the government will spend it well.  ha

Fuck that.  It SHOULD anger you.  It should anger every person who actually works for a living in this country to know that virtually every dollar paid in federal taxes either becomes "unaccounted for" (read: lost), or flat out wasted, by our federal government.  It's not just about the amount...it's the principle of the matter that whatever I pay every year, I have absolutely ZERO expectation that the money that I earned will be put to good use by our government. 

Overseas wars. Funding our enemies, welfare, social security, political corruption at virtually all levels of government.  Federal revenues have hit record-level highs recently, but debt only increases. 

Yes, anger is the right word.

[chicagomeg]

anger is the wrong word.  I love my life and count my blessings on the daily.  still doesn't mean I like to write a check for $8000! 

I don't think I'm quite emotionally ready to retire and I sorta enjoy my job.  easy money, as they say.  My hubs wants to work for another few years to get his full retirement pension.  shrug. 

still, $8k is more than I spent on myself for the whole of last year.  I'm sure the government will spend it well.  ha

Fuck that.  It SHOULD anger you.  It should anger every person who actually works for a living in this country to know that virtually every dollar paid in federal taxes either becomes "unaccounted for" (read: lost), or flat out wasted, by our federal government.  It's not just about the amount...it's the principle of the matter that whatever I pay every year, I have absolutely ZERO expectation that the money that I earned will be put to good use by our government. 

Overseas wars. Funding our enemies, welfare, social security, political corruption at virtually all levels of government.  Federal revenues have hit record-level highs recently, but debt only increases. 

Yes, anger is the right word.

Not in my circle of control to fix it, so there is no point on wasting energy being angry about it.

[Giro]

Fuck that.  It SHOULD anger you.  It should anger every person who actually works for a living in this country to know that virtually every dollar paid in federal taxes either becomes "unaccounted for" (read: lost), or flat out wasted, by our federal government.  It's not just about the amount...it's the principle of the matter that whatever I pay every year, I have absolutely ZERO expectation that the money that I earned will be put to good use by our government. 

Overseas wars. Funding our enemies, welfare, social security, political corruption at virtually all levels of government.  Federal revenues have hit record-level highs recently, but debt only increases. 

Yes, anger is the right word.
[/quote]

This was pretty much my exact point.  I spent less than $8k on myself.  I maybe spent $10K on my daughter.  I gave the federal govt $40,000.  Now granted, of course I invested a crap ton also...but damn....$40,000 to our federal govt that is horrible with money.  absolutely atrocious.

[hunniebun]

[/quote]

Yea, it's just the check we have to write..  We paid $32k and owe another $8k.  I need your Accountant because we barely made $300K and paid $40K to federal taxes.  how in the hell did you only pay $24k on $320K????  AWESOME JOB.  I'm jealous.
[/quote]

Be glad you don't live in Canada...our household income was only 145K and we paid almost 35 K in taxes this year. 

[nycstash]

Didn't you say you are expecting a full military pension? So, at least a portion of your taxes is going directly back to your household both in pension and in your regular income. Taxes are part of how your household's needs are paid for. So seems a particularly strange complaint. Also, I know MMM speaks to a particularly upper income audience (not exclusively, but that seems to be a big part of the audience), but even still I think people should be aware what it sounds like to use the words "barely made" and "$300,000" in the same sentence.  Even after a very small tax rate of 15%, your household still has over $20,000 each month to pay for expenses and savings. This is more than many households in this country make in a year. I'd focus on being grateful that you have so many resources and proud of yourselves for being able to maintain low expenses and high savings.

[skyrefuge]

Yea, it's just the check we have to write..  We paid $32k and owe another $8k.

Ok, it seems you were confused then about what you were angry about.

If you were angry about your overall tax burden, your post would have been complaining about the $40k you pay in taxes, not about the $8k settle-up number.

Complaining about the settle-up number shows that your anger (bizarrely) came from the surprise that you had been granted an interest-free loan, but it's entirely within your control to avoid accepting that loan. Either increase your withholding or your estimated tax payments throughout the year, and then you'll no longer be surprised and angry at filing time.

With that mind, how in the world would you "not owe a dime in taxes" if only one of your stopped working? Your taxes would go from $40k to $0? That's why I think you were confused about how taxes work. You probably meant that you would not have to pay any settle-up at filing time, but again, that has nothing to do with how much money you make or how many people are working, it has to do with the amount of tax you pay (or have withheld) throughout the year.

Given your $8k underpayment, I think you'll be required to make/increase your estimated tax payments throughout 2015 anyway, so it looks like the IRS rules will be solving your problem for you!

Fuck that.  It SHOULD anger you.  It should anger every person who actually works for a living in this country

haha, no thanks! I'd have to be a real dope to waste my energy and happiness on something like that. You should check out the Mr. Money Mustache blog sometime; he has some ways of thinking about things that might improve your life!

[surfhb]

Yeah well, name another country on the planet that pays the tax rates we do and enjoys the ability to retire when we're in our 30s or 40s.   Investment opportunities, low cost of living areas, social and financial freedom, ect.   

I took an Uber ride the other day with a man from Eygpt who won the immigration lottery.  He left his entire family and life to move here by himself.   He told me stories of burned churches and killings from the Muslim Brotherhood in his city.   

Glass Half Full my friend!!   You're incredibly lucky. :)

[cpa cat]

I am also angry when I have to pay taxes. I feel pain lancing up my arm when I log onto the various government websites to make my payments. Gah! It HURTS!

I scour my tax return for ways to make it untrue.

I became a tax accountant so that this wouldn't happen to me!

Oh... the taste of my failure. Waaaahhh!

I should be pleased that my education and experience has produced the lowest possible (within the law) tax bill! But I'm not! It's never low enough! Never!

[NoraLenderbee]

Didn't you say you are expecting a full military pension? So, at least a portion of your taxes is going directly back to your household both in pension and in your regular income. Taxes are part of how your household's needs are paid for. So seems a particularly strange complaint. Also, I know MMM speaks to a particularly upper income audience (not exclusively, but that seems to be a big part of the audience), but even still I think people should be aware what it sounds like to use the words "barely made" and "$300,000" in the same sentence.  Even after a very small tax rate of 15%, your household still has over $20,000 each month to pay for expenses and savings. This is more than many households in this country make in a year. I'd focus on being grateful that you have so many resources and proud of yourselves for being able to maintain low expenses and high savings.

+2.

[Emilyngh]

Didn't you say you are expecting a full military pension? So, at least a portion of your taxes is going directly back to your household both in pension and in your regular income. Taxes are part of how your household's needs are paid for. So seems a particularly strange complaint. Also, I know MMM speaks to a particularly upper income audience (not exclusively, but that seems to be a big part of the audience), but even still I think people should be aware what it sounds like to use the words "barely made" and "$300,000" in the same sentence.  Even after a very small tax rate of 15%, your household still has over $20,000 each month to pay for expenses and savings. This is more than many households in this country make in a year. I'd focus on being grateful that you have so many resources and proud of yourselves for being able to maintain low expenses and high savings.

+2.

+3

[Giro]

Yes, I'm thrilled to death to write the govt a check and shouldn't complain.

I love supporting a govt that is so efficient and budget conscious.  :)

And yes, I was angry about the $8000 because that meant, $32K was not enough...they wanted even MORE!!

We would have very minimal tax bill if we both retired and lived on the small pension....now please also point out that the pension isn't "small".  It's larger than the average household income.  I KNOW!

It's all relative.  I am grateful for my intelligence, my choice of career, my work ethic and on and on.  Yes, I'm 40 years old and could leave my job today and never look back.  Yes, my life ROCKS. 

still don't want to write the check tho.

[Huffy2k]

It's all relative.  I am grateful for my intelligence, my choice of career, my work ethic and on and on.  Yes, I'm 40 years old and could leave my job today and never look back.  Yes, my life ROCKS. 

still don't want to write the check tho.

+1

[NoraLenderbee]

Nobody likes writing a check for taxes, including me. Griping about doing so when (a) it's because you made a lot of money, (b) your future income comes from taxes, (c) you voluntarily signed up to work for the government is, to put it mildly, in poor taste. Let me get out my violin.

[mm1970]

Yes, I'm thrilled to death to write the govt a check and shouldn't complain.

I love supporting a govt that is so efficient and budget conscious.  :)

And yes, I was angry about the $8000 because that meant, $32K was not enough...they wanted even MORE!!

We would have very minimal tax bill if we both retired and lived on the small pension....now please also point out that the pension isn't "small".  It's larger than the average household income.  I KNOW!

It's all relative.  I am grateful for my intelligence, my choice of career, my work ethic and on and on.  Yes, I'm 40 years old and could leave my job today and never look back.  Yes, my life ROCKS. 

still don't want to write the check tho.

It's kinda funny, because I remember being a little Ensign and making peanuts living in DC, and having a discussion with my friend who was 8 years older, had transitioned to the non-military side of government, about HOW MUCH TAXES we pay and I shrugged.

I shrugged because I was making something like $19k a year, and wasn't paying that much in taxes.
I shrugged because I'd had 3/4 of my tuition paid for through college.
I shrugged because I was about to start my master's, also fully paid for by taxes.

And now, decades later with a family household 10x of what I made as an ensign?  My tax burden is about 25% which holy cow is more than 2x my gross pay back then.

I still shrug.  Because it's other taxpayers who paid for my degrees.  I know the government isn't perfect, not by a long shot.  We could definitely do better in how we spend taxes and how much.  I can defend the arm of the military I was in though, and I like the fact that several of my friends finally have health insurance after being denied for years due to pre-existing conditions.  So yay!

[Ellen]

Yea, it's just the check we have to write..  We paid $32k and owe another $8k.  I need your Accountant because we barely made $300K and paid $40K to federal taxes. how in the hell did you only pay $24k on $320K????  AWESOME JOB.  I'm jealous.



OP: Are you joking? You "barely made 300K," part of which was a military pension paid for by American taxpayers, as was/is your salary in the military, plus possible educational expenses. Isn't 40K 13% of 300K? Do you truly believe that is unreasonable? Get a grip.

[Tabaxus]

Also, the low tax numbers do seem low.  I paid $52k (federal) on ~$260k of income.  And I did do "happily", in that I think my taxes are way too low for my income level.

[NorCal]

The problem isn't taxes, it's value for money.  Now I'm a high earner, so I have no problem paying some taxes.  But I would at least be able to look at my everyday life and see that I'm getting  a relatively good value for the money.  It's just like everything else I spend money on.

So what did I get value from this last year?

Federal:

Freeways:  These are covered by gas taxes, so this isn't really relevant to income taxes (yes I realize the highway fund is underfunded, but they also spend ~40% of their budget on mass transit that I don't use)
Military & VA:  The US spent just under $600M on this last year, so my families portion would be about $6,000.  This seems a little high for "value", but I'll buy it.
Other Federal Programs: The US spent about another $600B on other discretionary programs.  I didn't receive any noticeable value from these.  To throw out a number, maybe the government "earned" another $2K of value for managing the money supply (Treasury) and the federal court system (DOJ), and other miscellaneous items.

So in total, I got about $8K in value from the government last year.  Heck, I'll even top that up to $10K to make sure I'm paying my "fair share" since others aren't working.

So what was my 2013 tax bill?  About $85K federal.  Damn right I'm pissed.

[JLee]

Nobody likes writing a check for taxes, including me. Griping about doing so when (a) it's because you made a lot of money, (b) your future income comes from taxes, (c) you voluntarily signed up to work for the government is, to put it mildly, in poor taste. Let me get out my violin.

No shit.

I'd be happy to trade for that "problem."...or, if it's really that bad, lower your income so you aren't paying that much.  Not surprisingly, nobody wants to do that. :P I understand that it's frustrating, but I see that your "barely $300k" is 5x my income. No sympathy...

[JLee]

I hate doing taxes and building up my anger inch by inch.

It is slightly less than last year but it's still a HUGE chunk of change.  The good thing is that the reasons we owe are that we both earn similar high incomes, have self-employment income and a military pension.  the bad thing is we owe $8K. 

One of both of us could FIRE and instantly drop down to the low tax bracket and not owe a dime in taxes.  :)

Then why not do that? Live on the military pension and be FIRE now. What's holding you back from doing that if it's financially feasible?

I'm going to guess it's the six-figure pay cut. :P

[Mississippi Mudstache]

I hate doing taxes and building up my anger inch by inch.

It is slightly less than last year but it's still a HUGE chunk of change.  The good thing is that the reasons we owe are that we both earn similar high incomes, have self-employment income and a military pension.  the bad thing is we owe $8K. 

One of both of us could FIRE and instantly drop down to the low tax bracket and not owe a dime in taxes.  :)

Then why not do that? Live on the military pension and be FIRE now. What's holding you back from doing that if it's financially feasible?

I'm going to guess it's the six-figure pay cut. :P

So why complain about taxes? I really don't get it. Don't get me wrong - I scoured the IRS forms for hours to make sure I minimize my tax payments, but I just can't imagine a good reason for complaining about the taxes we have to pay. Do people not recognize that the stability our government is the only reason we're able to earn so much in the first place, or do they simply not agree?

[Giro]

I hate doing taxes and building up my anger inch by inch.

It is slightly less than last year but it's still a HUGE chunk of change.  The good thing is that the reasons we owe are that we both earn similar high incomes, have self-employment income and a military pension.  the bad thing is we owe $8K. 

One of both of us could FIRE and instantly drop down to the low tax bracket and not owe a dime in taxes.  :)

Then why not do that? Live on the military pension and be FIRE now. What's holding you back from doing that if it's financially feasible?

I'm going to guess it's the six-figure pay cut. :P

not really.  I answered a little earlier in the thread.  We just aren't quite ready.  We don't spend much at all.  We don't have any debt or any real financial obligations but we enjoy our jobs and my youngest is still in elementary school so we just all go do our thing during the day and enjoy life.  When the jobs become not as enjoyable we can decide then what to do. 

I guess it's FU money.  We don't have to work BUT choose to work.  Somehow that feels better than when I HAD to work. 

And all of the points about being in the military and complaining about taxes that used to pay the military salary and now pay the retirement are valid, but 24 years in the military gives you a real close-up view of the amount of waste in the government.  I think the government could make HUGE progress when it comes to spending....starting with military spending. 

I'm certainly not asking for sympathy.  I'm just expressing the frustration to watch a great deal of money go into an organization that doesn't operate optimally. 

I love my country...best in the world.  I would do anything to defend it and it's citizens.  Doesnt mean I have to agree with everything it does.

[dino]

So in total, I got about $8K in value from the government last year.  Heck, I'll even top that up to $10K to make sure I'm paying my "fair share" since others aren't working.

I'm in a similar boat, but I see a lot more value in my taxes.  Think of it this way:  with the same skills you have, how much income could you make in a country with no taxes (Somalia, say, for example).  You will see the value of the taxes and more with this method.

[fodder69]

The problem isn't taxes, it's value for money.  Now I'm a high earner, so I have no problem paying some taxes.  But I would at least be able to look at my everyday life and see that I'm getting  a relatively good value for the money.  It's just like everything else I spend money on.

So what did I get value from this last year?

Federal:

Freeways:  These are covered by gas taxes, so this isn't really relevant to income taxes (yes I realize the highway fund is underfunded, but they also spend ~40% of their budget on mass transit that I don't use)
Military & VA:  The US spent just under $600M on this last year, so my families portion would be about $6,000.  This seems a little high for "value", but I'll buy it.
Other Federal Programs: The US spent about another $600B on other discretionary programs.  I didn't receive any noticeable value from these.  To throw out a number, maybe the government "earned" another $2K of value for managing the money supply (Treasury) and the federal court system (DOJ), and other miscellaneous items.

So in total, I got about $8K in value from the government last year.  Heck, I'll even top that up to $10K to make sure I'm paying my "fair share" since others aren't working.

So what was my 2013 tax bill?  About $85K federal.  Damn right I'm pissed.

Find better things to be pissed about than the fact you live in a country where you made enough money to owe 85k on taxes. Flip that around and be happy about what you have versus being pissed. Much better use of your energy.

[horsepoor]

The problem isn't taxes, it's value for money.  Now I'm a high earner, so I have no problem paying some taxes.  But I would at least be able to look at my everyday life and see that I'm getting  a relatively good value for the money.  It's just like everything else I spend money on.

So what did I get value from this last year?

Federal:

Freeways:  These are covered by gas taxes, so this isn't really relevant to income taxes (yes I realize the highway fund is underfunded, but they also spend ~40% of their budget on mass transit that I don't use)
Military & VA:  The US spent just under $600M on this last year, so my families portion would be about $6,000.  This seems a little high for "value", but I'll buy it.
Other Federal Programs: The US spent about another $600B on other discretionary programs.  I didn't receive any noticeable value from these.  To throw out a number, maybe the government "earned" another $2K of value for managing the money supply (Treasury) and the federal court system (DOJ), and other miscellaneous items.

So in total, I got about $8K in value from the government last year.  Heck, I'll even top that up to $10K to make sure I'm paying my "fair share" since others aren't working.

So what was my 2013 tax bill?  About $85K federal.  Damn right I'm pissed.

this is such a fruitless exercise.  looking at it this way I should be pissed about paying local taxes that go to schools, because we don't have kids, so I'm not directly benefitting, and instead subsidize my neighbors' snot nosed brats with their fancy school buses and text books.  But I'll benefit later when there are, you know, doctors and electricians and things around when I'm an old fart.  Because I paid for someone else's kid to go to school.

Like the OP said, taxes go down to essentially nil at the lower brackets, so you aren't just paying for those lazy fucks who don't work, but also subsidizing programs for people who work their asses off for a fraction of what you make.  They need the roads to get to work too.  It's easy to sit up in a tower with a huge salary and bitch about paying so much in taxes, but how many people REALLYmake that amount without standing on the shoulders of lower-paid people?  Lawyers have their secretaries and paralegals, doctors need nurses, phlebotomists and someone to scrub the floor.  At least the lower paid people have a lower tax burden, which means that they might be allowed some opportunities to invest, or get better education, or at least not live paycheck to paycheck, or in total poverty.

[Huffy2k]

Also, the low tax numbers do seem low.  I paid $52k (federal) on ~$260k of income.  And I did do "happily", in that I think my taxes are way too low for my income level.

Hopefully you wrote a check to the government to compensate them for your perceived underpayment right?

Based on this blog, it seems the government bureaucracy has achieved it's unstated goal when they started taking federal taxes directly from your paycheck, if you've never had it you'll never miss it.  I wonder how many people would be so happy to pay taxes if they had to write the check to the IRS on a monthly or quarterly basis?

Of courses taxes are a necessary component of a civilized society, confiscatory taxes and incompetent and wasteful management of those tax dollars are not! 

[partgypsy]

Seriously get out my really tiny violin, all those who do not feel they get good "value" for their tax dollars, the federal tax rate is extremely low, as well as tax rate for stock earnings and inheritance.
If you do not feel like you are getting a "good deal" living in a country that provides you with such good jobs, a pension to boot, in safety (not in civil conflict or living in a dictatorship) with unpolluted water and air, public schooling, funded libraries, parks and other amenities, I freely ask, nay plead you to move to another country that will "treat" you better. But no, I'm sure you won't, or only will once you are done taken advantage living in a country with civil liberties, public schooling, environmental protections, and good job market where even someone from humble beginnings can earn enough to not only make a good living, actually retire before 30, 40 years of working.

And please give back the military pension and social security and medicare when you become eligible, because as you say your dollars are wasted on such items. 

[Eric]

Based on this blog, it seems the government bureaucracy has achieved it's unstated goal when they started taking federal taxes directly from your paycheck, if you've never had it you'll never miss it. 

I'm pretty sure the bureaucracy's unstated goal is to lend credence to conspiracy theories about unstated goals.

I wonder how many people would be so happy to pay taxes if they had to write the check to the IRS on a monthly or quarterly basis?

If only there was a way we could figure out what amount of taxes we pay!  Damn that sneaky government bureaucracy and IRS for never telling us!

Of courses taxes are a necessary component of a civilized society, confiscatory taxes and incompetent and wasteful management of those tax dollars are not!

So taxes are necessary but taxes are not?  I can see you've given this a lot of thought.

[Huffy2k]

If only there was a way we could figure out what amount of taxes we pay!  Damn that sneaky government bureaucracy and IRS for never telling us!

I'm pretty sure the poster that I was responding to felt his taxes were too low.  I admire his civic mindedness and encourage him to cut that check to pay the government back for their generosity.

So taxes are necessary but taxes are not?

If you can't discern the difference between taxes and confiscatory taxes then I can't really help you. 

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the canidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship.”
― Alexander Fraser Tytler

[Eric]

If you can't discern the difference between taxes and confiscatory taxes then I can't really help you. 

I can't, actually.  Other than an inflammatory adjective, they seem pretty much the same to me.  Oh well.

[partgypsy]

If only there was a way we could figure out what amount of taxes we pay!  Damn that sneaky government bureaucracy and IRS for never telling us!

I'm pretty sure the poster that I was responding to felt his taxes were too low.  I admire his civic mindedness and encourage him to cut that check to pay the government back for their generosity.

So taxes are necessary but taxes are not?

If you can't discern the difference between taxes and confiscatory taxes then I can't really help you. 

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the canidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship.”
― Alexander Fraser Tytler

(from Wikipedia) There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having written any part of the text.[10] In fact, it actually comprises two parts which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first paragraph's earliest known appearance[11] is in an op-ed piece by Elmer T. Peterson in the 9 December 1951 The Daily Oklahoman, which attributed it to Tytler...
The list beginning "From bondage to spiritual faith" is commonly known as the "Tytler Cycle" or the "Fatal Sequence". Its first known appearance was in a 1943 speech by Henning W. Prentiss, Jr., president of the Armstrong Cork Company and former president of the National Association of Manufacturers, delivered at the February 1943 convocation of the General Alumni Society of the University of Pennsylvania.

[Lkxe]

If only there was a way we could figure out what amount of taxes we pay!  Damn that sneaky government bureaucracy and IRS for never telling us!

I'm pretty sure the poster that I was responding to felt his taxes were too low.  I admire his civic mindedness and encourage him to cut that check to pay the government back for their generosity.

So taxes are necessary but taxes are not?

If you can't discern the difference between taxes and confiscatory taxes then I can't really help you. 

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the canidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship.”
― Alexander Fraser Tytler

So it is really easy to cut the government a check https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/23779454 and I have done so- some of those stimulus payments were just silly.

OP I suggest that you find the hard charging E-5 or new minted O-1 in your husbands command (24 years is O-5, O-6 or E-8 or 9) and take great pride in paying his or her salary and focus your pride on what an excellent NCO or Officer they will be when they have 24 yrs in the SERVICE and what a great benefit your tax dollars are to their families future.  Oh and I would look again at your tax estimates on retirement pay - no contributions to tax shelters and aging children may not leave you tax free on military retirement. For this next year, as it is to late to fix the last, maybe you should consider uping your charitable contributions.

[Tabaxus]

Also, the low tax numbers do seem low.  I paid $52k (federal) on ~$260k of income.  And I did do "happily", in that I think my taxes are way too low for my income level.

Hopefully you wrote a check to the government to compensate them for your perceived underpayment right?

Based on this blog, it seems the government bureaucracy has achieved it's unstated goal when they started taking federal taxes directly from your paycheck, if you've never had it you'll never miss it.  I wonder how many people would be so happy to pay taxes if they had to write the check to the IRS on a monthly or quarterly basis?

Of courses taxes are a necessary component of a civilized society, confiscatory taxes and incompetent and wasteful management of those tax dollars are not!

Give me a bloody break.  One does not need to write a check to the Treasury to advocate for changes in tax policy that would require everyone in one's position to pay more taxes.  This is a childish argument and you know it.  I back up my position on general tax policy in the voting booth, not by writing an individual check that will have no effect in isolation.

[rpr]

I love my country...best in the world.  I would do anything to defend it and it's citizens.  Doesnt mean I have to agree with everything it does.

This country is among the best in the world precisely because it spends it's money on schools, roads, education, research, the police, military, our national parks, social security, Medicare, welfare etc. If it didn't, as others said, we would be like a third world tinpot dictatorship instead of a thriving democracy. The above reasons are why I am thrilled to have immigrated to this country.

Not only that, we are right now living at a time, when the people with higher incomes are paying the lowest marginal taxes ever. From 1930 to 1980, the top marginal rates were much higher than 50%.

[Huffy2k]

Give me a bloody break.  One does not need to write a check to the Treasury to advocate for changes in tax policy that would require everyone in one's position to pay more taxes.  This is a childish argument and you know it.  I back up my position on general tax policy in the voting booth, not by writing an individual check that will have no effect in isolation.

You admitted you felt that you didn't pay enough in taxes, what better way to remedy that situation than to contribute what you feel you owe based on your level of income and use of government services.  If you're gonna talk the talk, walk the walk.  I'm going to assume you took the standard deduction on your tax return and didn't maximize your deductions amirite?

[partgypsy]

Give me a bloody break.  One does not need to write a check to the Treasury to advocate for changes in tax policy that would require everyone in one's position to pay more taxes.  This is a childish argument and you know it.  I back up my position on general tax policy in the voting booth, not by writing an individual check that will have no effect in isolation.

You admitted you felt that you didn't pay enough in taxes, what better way to remedy that situation than to contribute what you feel you owe based on your level of income and use of government services.  If you're gonna talk the talk, walk the walk.  I'm going to assume you took the standard deduction on your tax return and didn't maximize your deductions amirite?

Buffet admits the same, that is, the wealthy and particularly the extremely wealthy pay less than their fair share in taxes, but as a businessman is he going to pay in excess of what the existing tax code requires (answer is no). He will readily tell people how he feels about the lenient and flawed tax code, tells his representatives and urges others to tell their elected representatives what they think. One person writing a check is not doing anything to fix the system. 

[Gin1984]

I hate doing taxes and building up my anger inch by inch.

It is slightly less than last year but it's still a HUGE chunk of change.  The good thing is that the reasons we owe are that we both earn similar high incomes, have self-employment income and a military pension.  the bad thing is we owe $8K. 

One of both of us could FIRE and instantly drop down to the low tax bracket and not owe a dime in taxes.  :)

Then why not do that? Live on the military pension and be FIRE now. What's holding you back from doing that if it's financially feasible?

I'm going to guess it's the six-figure pay cut. :P

not really.  I answered a little earlier in the thread.  We just aren't quite ready.  We don't spend much at all.  We don't have any debt or any real financial obligations but we enjoy our jobs and my youngest is still in elementary school so we just all go do our thing during the day and enjoy life.  When the jobs become not as enjoyable we can decide then what to do. 

I guess it's FU money.  We don't have to work BUT choose to work.  Somehow that feels better than when I HAD to work. 

And all of the points about being in the military and complaining about taxes that used to pay the military salary and now pay the retirement are valid, but 24 years in the military gives you a real close-up view of the amount of waste in the government.  I think the government could make HUGE progress when it comes to spending....starting with military spending. 

I'm certainly not asking for sympathy.  I'm just expressing the frustration to watch a great deal of money go into an organization that doesn't operate optimally. 

I love my country...best in the world.  I would do anything to defend it and it's citizens.  Doesnt mean I have to agree with everything it does.

I know a few military members who have mentioned the same thing, but I don't often get to ask many questions.  If you don't mind, what kind of things and approximate savings of those things, do you think the military should cut?

[Huffy2k]

Buffet admits the same, that is, the wealthy and particularly the extremely wealthy pay less than their fair share in taxes, but as a businessman is he going to pay in excess of what the existing tax code requires (answer is no). He will readily tell people how he feels about the lenient and flawed tax code, tells his representatives and urges others to tell their elected representatives what they think. One person writing a check is not doing anything to fix the system.

So Buffet is a hypocrite?  Got it!

Good talk.

[NoraLenderbee]

I wonder how many people would be so happy to pay taxes if they had to write the check to the IRS on a monthly or quarterly basis?

You're aware that self-employed people do exactly that, right? I paid quarterly estimated taxes when I was self-employed. I didn't ENJOY it, but I accepted it as a necessary part of living in this society.  I don't ENJOY slowing down in school zones or waiting behind schoolbuses with flashing red lights, but I do it even though I don't have kids.

[Eric]

Buffet admits the same, that is, the wealthy and particularly the extremely wealthy pay less than their fair share in taxes, but as a businessman is he going to pay in excess of what the existing tax code requires (answer is no). He will readily tell people how he feels about the lenient and flawed tax code, tells his representatives and urges others to tell their elected representatives what they think. One person writing a check is not doing anything to fix the system.

So Buffet is a hypocrite?  Got it!

Good talk.

I don't think hypocrite means what you think it means. 

In this case, it would be if Buffet said publicly that he supported higher taxes but then voted (or told people in private) the opposite.  So unless you have some basis to believe that Buffet doesn't actually support the policies that he says he supports, then your "criticism" is a non-sequitur.

The whole claim of "you should just pay more if you don't think taxes are high enough" is pretty much the worst argument in the history of the world.  You're essentially arguing that Joe Taxpayer could pay an extra $20K if he wanted to, and that contribution which is 0.00000001% more than the IRS would have collected is going to make more of a difference than Joe Taxpayer voting to adjust current tax rates for everyone.  It makes no sense.

[Tabaxus]

Give me a bloody break.  One does not need to write a check to the Treasury to advocate for changes in tax policy that would require everyone in one's position to pay more taxes.  This is a childish argument and you know it.  I back up my position on general tax policy in the voting booth, not by writing an individual check that will have no effect in isolation.

You admitted you felt that you didn't pay enough in taxes, what better way to remedy that situation than to contribute what you feel you owe based on your level of income and use of government services.  If you're gonna talk the talk, walk the walk.  I'm going to assume you took the standard deduction on your tax return and didn't maximize your deductions amirite?

(A):  I took the standard deduction because it is higher than my itemized deductions.
(B):  As I said earlier, this "OMG YOU'RE A HYPOCRITE WRITE A CHECK" line of argument is childish, and you know it.  "The talk" is "it would be sound fiscal policy to increase tax revenues by increasing taxes on people making X."  "The walk" is "voting for people who agree with this stance."  If I fashioned "X" to be just slightly higher than my income level so that I wouldn't personally feel the bite, you could call me a hypocrite, and if I advocated for this publicly but voted against it privately, you could also call me a hypocrite.  Neither of those things is true.  I "walk the walk" by voting for people that support my views of tax policy (or, more accurately, something closer to my views).  I advocate where I can that the bars that are currently set are too high.

That said, if you want to argue as a child would argue, that's your own business, I just won't engage with it further.

[Huffy2k]

That said, if you want to argue as a child would argue, that's your own business, I just won't engage with it further.

I fail to see how my argument is childish?  Certain posters here state they are under-taxed, yet they make sure they take all their deductions and don't contribute further so as to hit their fair share?  It's a valid point, regardless of the minimal effect a single taxpayer would have?  I would argue that if everybody that feels that way would donate, there would be an effect (especially if the Buffet's and Gates's of the world jumped on board).  By calling me childish, methinks thou doth protest too much.

Furthermore, I'd say the schoolyard bully tactics of those who jumped all over my initial post were the ones acting childish.