our mini-retirement during shutdown

[sol]

My wife and I are/were both federal employees.  For the past seven days, we've been legally forbidden from working (checking email, visiting our office building, using work cell phones) and so have been staying home adjusting to life without a job. 

Adjusting to life without a job has been more of a challenge than I anticipated.  I thought it would be great to sleep late and catch up on some house projects, but instead I find we've struggled to stay productive and that has impacted our happiness.  We still have to get up and get the kids off to school, but then it's really easy to surf the internet (hi forums!) and take a nap and suddenly the day is gone.

We did have a Furlough Friday party for some of our former co-workers, which was fun but most of us drank too much.  Catching up with them, it seems many of them are also dissatisfied, spending their days playing Candy Crush or watching television and generally not fulfilling their retirement dreams.

Is this what my future holds?  A listless existence of fleeting empty moments strung together until my health fails?  No thanks.

My wife and I both like(d) our jobs.  We derive enjoyment and meaning and a certain sense of purpose from public sector scientific research.  I think we may end up in the SWAMI category of people who continue to work long after they have any financial need to do so.

I've only been unemployed for a week, but it's already begun to change the way I think about my own retirement planning.  If my eventual "real" retirement is going to be as ugly as the past week, then I should be spending more money on tropical vacations instead of saving 70% of my income so that I can someday stay home and veg in front of a screen.

[DebtDerp]

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/03/23/reader-story-the-man-who-thought-early-retirement-sucked/

[Roland of Gilead]

Come on, really?  We had one of the nicest weekends in the Seattle area the past two days and all you can do is play Candy Crush?  Take a ferry to Friday Harbor and go for a walk at English camp.  Go for a ride into the Cascades and check out the changing leaves or hike to a waterfall.

[2527]

I'm furloughed too, and  I can relate to what you are saying.  I've enjoyed my week off:  connected with people more  than usual, slept to my heart's content, exercised more, was home when the kids got home, did some chores around  the house.  It's been a nice change of pace. 

I could retire today if I wanted to but I continue to work.

On one hand, I would expect when I retire that I would commit to some new things and build a meaningful life around them.  I can't do that right now watching the news and waiting for the phone to ring on a day to day basis. 

On the other hand.  My job, other than a long commute, is pretty easy.  I don't work uncompensated overtime, I get my vacation time, and my holidays, and every other Friday.  So I enjoy what work gives me in terms of extra money and interesting professional work, I try to steer clear of the politics and drama, and then I enjoy my time off and my evenings off.  When it is time to change that, I'll know it, and I'll do it. 

One thing I know is people have a tendency to buy into the "When I X, I will be happy" way of thinking.   X can be "FIRE", get a good job, make partner, buy a motor home, move into the house of our dreams, get divorced, find a boyfriend, lose weight, have a child, get a million dollars.   In some cases, it is true.  In other cases, it is a way to avoid dealing with life.

[RootofGood]

OP, it may take a while for the "retirement" mentality to set in. I'm 1.5 months into it and the reality still hasn't quite settled in yet. 

[Jamesqf]

If my eventual "real" retirement is going to be as ugly as the past week, then I should be spending more money on tropical vacations...

But wouldn't your life be equally a "listless existence of fleeting empty moments strung together" on a tropical island as in the PNW? 

[avonlea]

Any transition takes time.  I think that you and your wife could find plenty of activities that interest you if you retired early, but if you love your jobs, you're already living the perfect life.  Which is great! "Happiness is wanting what you have."

If my eventual "real" retirement is going to be as ugly as the past week, then I should be spending more money on tropical vacations instead of saving 70% of my income so that I can someday stay home and veg in front of a screen.

Sounds like it might be a good idea to add "tropical vacation with the kids" onto your list of things to do before they are grown and leave home.  But, um, how many tropical vacations are we talking about here? ;)

[MissStache]

My sister is having a brief forced retirement from the fed as well, and she is also finding it frustrating.  The thing that has been most challenging for her is not knowing when she will go back to work, so being unwilling to take on any large projects.  Perhaps when you have a more solid schedule of free-time, you'll be able to plan better. 

[wing117]

I'm still a significant number of years away (2024), but I just recently took 9 days off for R&R and went completely unplugged from my job. I'm not sure what your hobbies and interests are but mine revolve around camping, hiking, bicycling, learning, reading, DIY, electronics, woodworking, video games, cooking, baking bread and gardening.

I was up at 7:30am every morning, made a wonderful breakfast, went on a hike till noon around several trails with my pup, came home and cooked lunch, maybe started some dough for dinner (homemade pizza? Pitas? etc...), watched some educational videos out in my yard, drinking some tea, played with my dog, checked on my garden/pulled weeds, picked up the cabin, on slower days, I may sit down and read a book too. Evenings consisted of getting dinner ready, the SO coming home, talking about the day, and finishing up with a drink around the bonfire.

As I have a longer time without needing to worry about a 9-5 job, I'd probably hunt out some communities, events and start some monthly/quarterly travel plans. I'm interested in wine/beer/cider making and baking bread and plan on looking at cultivating my own crops to pursue that further. I just went to a farm this last weekend that also did their own cider and had done a hop/cider (Called Hoppin' Johnny. :) ) that was fantastic. If I had grapes, hopes, barley, wheat and apples all on my property, I would spend a lot of time experimenting with different ingredient mixtures.

I am also incredibly interested in Aquaponics for fish/leafy green harvests, so there's something else.

With the MMM lifestyle, I have found more and more of these little things (ie "God is in the Details") I'm interested in that I plan to pursue a little bit now, and significantly more so in retirement.

What are your interests and are there ways to pursue them even more so when you have all this free time? And remember; Financial Independence doesn't mean not working. It means not having to work.

Could it also be that the 'forced retirement' causing a level of stress that is preventing you from enjoying your free time?

[Emerald]

Frankly, I'm having a great time... thanks in no small part to a very healthy emergency fund. 

I get up and go to bed at a resonable hour.  I take naps if I want.  I've completed a lot of long overdue projects around the house.  I've done some volunteer work.  I've drank far too much coffee at the local coffee shop (mustache fail I know!).  I now have time to persue other interests, and I just signed up for Khan Academy.

I didn't want to be furloughed in the first place, but I'm making the best of it.  It's been such a blessing, I plan to take off at least 3 weeks each year to recharge. 

[sol]

We had one of the nicest weekends in the Seattle area the past two days and all you can do is play Candy Crush?

Me?  No, I don't play Candy Crush or any other games on my phone.  I may be lame, but I'm not pathetic.

I can't do that right now watching the news and waiting for the phone to ring on a day to day basis. 

This is definitely part of the problem.  Despite MMM's recent rant against watching the news, I read a ton of news because I need to know when to go back to work and there is no official channel for notifying people since everything is shut down.  My boss literally told me to watch CNN to find out when to report back to the office.

And in the meantime, it's not like I can head to the Bahamas for a week.  I sort of feel like I'm "on call" and need to be ready to go on 12 hours notice, which kind of limits our options.  No camping trips out of state.  No long road trips.  No backcountry adventures.

I've been having friends over for dinner, knitting a ton, and trying new recipes. It's been lovely.

That's part of the problem.  The normal stuff I would be doing anyway, like cooking family meals and cleaning the house and odd fix-it jobs, have suddenly expanded to swallow all of my free time.  The house is in the best shape today it's been in since I moved in, but I certainly don't feel like I have eight hours of free time every day.  A little more sleep, a little more diligence with the dusting and mopping, some touch-ups around the yard, and suddenly it's time to pick up the kids.  It's like my regular jobs is keeping me from doing regular tasks adequately, so without it I'm back to par on life tasks and don't really feel like I've "gained" anything by being home all day.

Could it also be that the 'forced retirement' causing a level of stress that is preventing you from enjoying your free time?

This is certainly part of the problem.  After three years of pay freezes and then dealing with strained budgets due to the sequester, suddenly we're also furloughed?  An outraged public calling for my head on a platter because they think I'm the source of the country's fiscal woes? 

It's hard to stay motivated in that kind of environment.  I'm spoiled having a job that I feel genuinely matters to the country, so losing it hurts.  Perhaps I've conflated my identity and my profession for too long.

[DebtDerp]

I think you’re problem is that you are looking at all of the negatives which really just boil down to the uncertainty of when you will be going back to the office. Instead you should take a step back and focus on the positives. Essentially, you are on a paid vacation or “mini-retirement” as you call it. It is wonderful that you find a lot of meaning in your jobs but I am betting that there is more to your life than just your work. Take some time on your hobbies. Pick up that book you’ve wanted to read. Stop checking CNN and just give yourself ten minutes every night to check your job status.

Sure you can’t do any overnight trips during the week but your kids are in school any way. We are having some amazing weather in the PNW right now. Jump on the bike, go down to your local market, and/or visit a museum. I totally get the frustration you have with the uncertainty of the current situation but you really have no control over it so why let it bother you? You shouldn’t worry too much about not being productive. Don’t feel bad about spending an afternoon doing something fun with your wife instead of fixing something around the house. Look at this time off as a gift instead of a big pain in the ass. ;)

[Another Reader]

It's hard to stay motivated in that kind of environment.  I'm spoiled having a job that I feel genuinely matters to the country, so losing it hurts.  Perhaps I've conflated my identity and my profession for too long.

The law of unintended consequences will end up costing the Feds a lot of their best employees as a result of this situation.  Some of the ones close to retirement will decide they are not appreciated and they enjoy doing what they are doing with their forced time off.  They will retire soon after returning to work.  Others, especially younger more motivated folks, will jump ship to the private sector.  The long term costs of this mess include the loss of these people.

[Frankies Girl]

I know this isn't exactly like what you and most gov't workers are having to deal with, but a few years ago, my area was hit by a hurricane, knocking out the electricity and doing damage over the entire city and outlying areas. It was not as bad as it could have been, but in my case in addition to minor but lots of damage, my workplace building had some pretty serious damage and electrical issues. They had told us "we'll let you know when it's safe to come back to work" and everyone to stay home and take care of themselves. The first 3 days of this, I felt pretty much like you did - I can't go very far away from home just in case (cell phones still weren't very reliable due to towers being taken out and gas supplies were being rationed), I hadn't planned on staying home, so I puttered around and fixed things I could fix but I felt at lose ends and pretty damned useless without electricity as well.

Thing is, this wasn't a planned "vacation" so there wasn't a really good way to relax or figure out cool things to do... special circumstances, and stressful ones at that. You're in the same situation. I would not use this time as a good example of what your retired life will be like. You will know when that is coming as you'll be the one making the plans and in control of the situation. 

And I would say that if you love your job, that is wonderful, but do start doing some thought about how much you have of your identity tied up into what you do at that job. You are more than your job description, and tying too much self-worth into that title and work can make it very difficult to separate if circumstances deem it necessary.

[MrsPete]

I can relate to what you're saying.  I'm a teacher, so I have a mini-retirement every summer.  When the kids were little, I was constantly busy with their care, so I didn't experience what you're describing.  Now that they're older, it's different:  Whereas I used to pour every glass of milk and drive them to swim lessons, now I supervise as they do the laundry, and I give them permission to go out with friends.  I totally understand how you can sleep late, sit down to watch one TV show that turns into four hours of wasted time, goof off on the internet a while, and suddenly it's dinner time. 

I've learned to avoid this by setting goals for each summer.  I usually have some household maintenance projects that've been piling up, and the kids and I always pick out a couple fun outings that we want to be sure to enjoy -- for example, we often meet our cousins at a museum halfway between our homes.  Often the goals have to do with learning something; this past summer, for example, we learned to make homemade cheese.  My youngest is absolutely hooked on homemade cheese.  One thing I always do is purchase (and wrap) most of my Christmas gifts during the summer.

A friend of mine does something similar with her kids:  Every year they pick one thing they want to learn as a family.  One summer it was canning, and since I've been doing that all my life, I helped them get started.  Another summer they chose construction, and they build a super playhouse for themselves.  Whereas I set lots of little goals, they focus on that one thing and really, really do it well. 

Anyway, I suppose when we really retire, it would be wise to periodically sit down and set some goals (maybe every season?).  Otherwise it'd be very possible to suddenly realize that you've been retired for a decade and have only accomplished two of the things you said you wanted to do.

[Roland of Gilead]

We are having some amazing weather in the PNW right now.

Were having.  It is raining like a b.. right now. Got cold again too.  :-(

Come on snow!  I like summer and winter, you can have the cold rain.

[oldtoyota]

Maybe it's no good because you were not expecting to be out for so long and because you are not sure when you go back. Plus, there's the stress of knowing you've got shizola to get done when you're back whether or not you have the time to do it.

What I'm taking a long time to say is that you're not retired. You're furloughed, which means you are in a waiting game. A waiting game sucks.

My sister is furloughed. She volunteered at her daughter's school, scheduled doc appts she'd not previously had time to get to, and is doing things around her house. Also, she's taking exercise classes and exercising around two hours every other day. She seems to have no end of things she wants to do.

[MrsPete]

This is certainly part of the problem.  After three years of pay freezes and then dealing with strained budgets due to the sequester, suddenly we're also furloughed?  An outraged public calling for my head on a platter because they think I'm the source of the country's fiscal woes? 

It's hard to stay motivated in that kind of environment.  I'm spoiled having a job that I feel genuinely matters to the country, so losing it hurts.  Perhaps I've conflated my identity and my profession for too long.

Trust me, although I am a state employee and have nothing to do with the furlough, I know exactly how you feel.  Over the last decade or so, we teachers have seen all our authority stripped from us.  Kids don't attend school?  We are forced to give them make-up work and give them passing marks, even if they've only done it halfway.  They can pretty much do anything, say anything to us, and they get a day or two of in-school suspension, where they sit and listen to their ipods and text their friends.  And at the end of the semester, when it becomes apparent that the kid won't pass the class, first the administrators push to see if the teacher has "done everything right", which means having provided all the special needs (such as reading the test out loud or providing teacher notes so the kid doesn't have to take notes himself) and having called the parents five times to tell them that the kid isn't doing well . . . IF the teacher has done everything right, so the kid can actually receive a failing grade, the administration pulls the kid out of class and puts him into an online class, where he miraculously passes your year-long class in two weeks!  Yes, grammar and organization really do matter on my paper, even if this isn't English class.  My personal favorite is when I call a parent to explain what's going on in class, and the parent says, "Well, I'll have to hear Johnny's side of the story before I can do anything."  A close second:  A kid who hasn't done much of anything all year long tells me, "We have five days 'til the end of the class, and I can stay after every day to make up work.  Well, except for Thursday night 'cause that's our baseball awards banquet."  Yeah?  Where were you when I offered extra help on Week 2, Week 3, Week 4, and so forth?   

Yet what's the problem with education today?  Lazy teachers.  Stupid teachers.  Tenure.  Overpaid teachers, who couldn't make it in the business world.  Uncaring teachers, who are just so insensitive to special needs.  The problem couldn't be that we're no longer teaching spelling in elementary school, and we're letting middle schoolers use calculators because the multiplication tables are just so hard.  And I haven't even mentioned state testing. 

Okay, admittedly, the situations above describe only a small percentage of our student body, but it eats away at everything for which we teachers stand, so, yes, I know how you feel when you say the public looks at you like it's your fault.   

[DebtDerp]

Were having.  It is raining like a b.. right now. Got cold again too.  :-(

Come on snow!  I like summer and winter, you can have the cold rain.

It's a bit chilly in Seattle but beautiful and sunny, I'll take it!

[Roland of Gilead]

Were having.  It is raining like a b.. right now. Got cold again too.  :-(

Come on snow!  I like summer and winter, you can have the cold rain.

It's a bit chilly in Seattle but beautiful and sunny, I'll take it!

Oh, I just noticed the sun.  It was pouring just a minute ago.  Fickle weather!

[grantmeaname]

It's hard to stay motivated in that kind of environment.  I'm spoiled having a job that I feel genuinely matters to the country, so losing it hurts.  Perhaps I've conflated my identity and my profession for too long.

The law of unintended consequences will end up costing the Feds a lot of their best employees as a result of this situation.  Some of the ones close to retirement will decide they are not appreciated and they enjoy doing what they are doing with their forced time off.  They will retire soon after returning to work.  Others, especially younger more motivated folks, will jump ship to the private sector.  The long term costs of this mess include the loss of these people.

To say nothing of how much harder recruiters' jobs are now - I'm thinking a lot less seriously about work with the SEC/Fed/FDIC/OCC as a result of this mess, and I bet I'm not the only one.

[Paul der Krake]

It's hard to stay motivated in that kind of environment.  I'm spoiled having a job that I feel genuinely matters to the country, so losing it hurts.  Perhaps I've conflated my identity and my profession for too long.

The law of unintended consequences will end up costing the Feds a lot of their best employees as a result of this situation.  Some of the ones close to retirement will decide they are not appreciated and they enjoy doing what they are doing with their forced time off.  They will retire soon after returning to work.  Others, especially younger more motivated folks, will jump ship to the private sector.  The long term costs of this mess include the loss of these people.

To say nothing of how much harder recruiters' jobs are now - I'm thinking a lot less seriously about work with the SEC/Fed/FDIC/OCC as a result of this mess, and I bet I'm not the only one.

Which means, if you are confident about the long term benefits of a career as a public servant, that now is a great time to join.

[grantmeaname]

I'm not. But I like the arbitrage mindset.

[sol]

Which means, if you are confident about the long term benefits of a career as a public servant, that now is a great time to join.

Good luck with that.  We're shrinking government, remember?  Out staff is down 15 % in the past three years and we've done zero hiring.

Most agencies have a hard hiring freeze.  Some have a soft hiring freeze, where you can request a waiver for individual hires if and only if you can demonstrate a vital need.

The sequester cut all discretionary spending across the board, and unless Congress gets their act together to change it, it has continuing cuts that kick in by default for the next nine years.  There isn't going to be a hiring spree anytime soon.

Congress has decided that government is too big.  Cutting the budget is just one way to force reductions in staff and programs, and I don't see that plan changing anytime soon.

And if you do somehow manage to get on board through the wavier process?  Don't expect to ever get a raise or a promotion, those cost money we don't have.  And beef up your emergency fund, because furloughs are the new wacky word of the day.  There is no security in government employment these days, and I don't see that changing anytime soon either.

[Paul der Krake]

Sol, you are obviously a lot more informed than me when it comes to federal matters, and I appreciate you taking the time to find flaws in my argument.

The reasoning I followed can be summed up with the following points:

1) the United States does not have an unusually high percentage of public sector workers, as far as I can tell. I may be completely wrong on this, it is hard to find good comparisons with other countries as the agencies do not always overlap, or even exist elsewhere.

2) Agencies still need good people, and need to retain them. Market forces being what they are, this is traditionally achieved by competive salaries, solid benefits, and a touch of national pride for serving one's country. Sooner or later, expectations will have to be met, or the country will be run by sub-par workers who couldn't get jobs anywhere else.

3) From a very general perspective, fewer applicants mean stronger negociating power in the labor market, and the possibility of occasional furloughs shouldn't impact a prudent saver much. The whole shutdown is a scary event, but don't see it occuring very often (if ever again).

4) I expect the GOP's hard line policies to be short lived. Losing voters tends to loosen things up. Case in point: immigration reform.

Maybe I'm just a naive fool who drank too much MMM optimism koolaid, but I think things will eventually improve. There may be less workers overall in the future, but there will be room for a talented young graduate willing to wait a little but get a foot in the door early while the market is down. :)

[Cujo]

Regarding #2: In my experience - and I'm going to phrase this carefully so as not to offend - the quality of government employees already suffers badly for the lack of competitive salaries relative to the private sector.

[wing117]

Regarding #2: In my experience - and I'm going to phrase this carefully so as not to offend - the quality of government employees already suffers badly for the lack of competitive salaries relative to the private sector.

As a state employee, I see this evidence everywhere. We also have folks who we have dubbed "Lifers", who no longer do any meaningful work, have no interest in learning or performing, cannot be fired due to their years of service and are only around to collect retirement. Normally they get shifted to less critical positions, but not removed. They're a drain on all aspects of the system.

Sol, slightly off topic, but I wanted to let you know that I have your quote about "borrowing from my own future" printed out and up in my office. Not only has it given me a lot to strive for, but it has also spurred very positive retirement conversations from others who have read it. So I wanted to say thank you.

[sol]

Regarding #2: In my experience - and I'm going to phrase this carefully so as not to offend - the quality of government employees already suffers badly for the lack of competitive salaries relative to the private sector.

I agree this is a problem, especially for people nearing the ends of their careers who just sort of hang on indefinitely without being productive.  Not only does this negatively impact the work we do and our budget, as the rest of us have to pick up the slack, it's also an additional drag on motivation for younger employees.  If you can see examples of people getting paid to totally phone it in for the last ten years of their career, why would you retire early and forego those easy earnings?  Why not just show up and goof off at work all day?  As if pay freezes and sequester and furloughs weren't already management headwinds, now we have to deal with the very attractive option of being a slacker.  It's a problem.

[sol]

Sol, slightly off topic, but I wanted to let you know that I have your quote about "borrowing from my own future" printed out and up in my office.

You're not the first person to bring up that particular one-off comment from a year ago as helping to clarify their thinking.  Clearly, this means MMM should make a me featured writer on his blog.

[CopperTex]

My theory on the seeking of early retirement is just a seeking of control.  Once you realize you were always in control to begin with, you realize work was never keeping you from living the life you wanted.  There's alot to be said for the value of work and the purpose it brings to your life.  MMM touts early retirement to appeal to readers who hate their jobs but the irony is that he works pretty damn hard.

[grantmeaname]

My theory on the seeking of early retirement is just a seeking of control.  Once you realize you were always in control to begin with, you realize work was never keeping you from living the life you wanted.

I'm living the life I want to now. I'm sure some of the hundreds of thousands of readers fit your description pretty accurately, but from the subset that post on the forum, I'd say many more are positive people who have lives they like very much and seek FI either to do things they can't while working (travel the world full time, or be a full-time parent), or seek FI with no intention of quitting afterwards. And yes, there's probably some selection bias there, but since MMM is a change-the-world optimist it can't be that all his readers are grumpy and slowly dying inside.

There's alot to be said for the value of work and the purpose it brings to your life.  MMM touts early retirement to appeal to readers who hate their jobs but the irony is that he works pretty damn hard.

I don't think he ever shied away from work or that many of us trying for ER are effort averse. Perhaps my favorite post of all time on this blog is Get Rich With: Good Old-Fashioned Hard Work.

[Jamesqf]

Sol, you are obviously a lot more informed than me when it comes to federal matters, and I appreciate you taking the time to find flaws in my argument.

Maybe I misunderstand, but I think you might have missed a crucial point of the "too much government" arguments.  It's not really that "Agency X is overstaffed, and the lazy bums are sitting around getting paid for doing nothing", but that Agency X is doing something that either should not be done at all, or - if it's something that's really needed - could be done better by the private sector.  So in this view, staffing Agency X with keen, efficient employees is actually the worst thing you could do :-)

Unfortunately, I think the GOP is losing sight of its own message on this...

[Paul der Krake]

Sol, you are obviously a lot more informed than me when it comes to federal matters, and I appreciate you taking the time to find flaws in my argument.

Maybe I misunderstand, but I think you might have missed a crucial point of the "too much government" arguments.  It's not really that "Agency X is overstaffed, and the lazy bums are sitting around getting paid for doing nothing", but that Agency X is doing something that either should not be done at all, or - if it's something that's really needed - could be done better by the private sector.  So in this view, staffing Agency X with keen, efficient employees is actually the worst thing you could do :-)

Unfortunately, I think the GOP is losing sight of its own message on this...

On the contrary, I believe that some parts of government need more regulation. I'm not saying waste doesn't occur: there are agencies out there of dubious necessity (like like this one, 24m a year and 100+ employees to maintain a list?!) or that could be consolidated with another agency. I don't, however, buy into the argument that we can get rid of entire regulatory agencies because "they hinder businesses" and that we should "let the free market do its thing".

[Mr.Macinstache]

sol, not looking for a debate, just a general inquiry...what about putting your feelers out into the private sector? Not interested or is it not competitive salary/benefit wise?

[Jamesqf]

I don't, however, buy into the argument that we can get rid of entire regulatory agencies because "they hinder businesses" and that we should "let the free market do its thing".

How about getting rid of them because they run roughshod over people's rights?  As for instance the DEA, TSA, BATF? 

[sol]

I think you might have missed a crucial point of the "too much government" arguments.  It's not really that "Agency X is overstaffed, and the lazy bums are sitting around getting paid for doing nothing", but that Agency X is doing something that either should not be done at all, or - if it's something that's really needed - could be done better by the private sector.

I didn't miss it.  I think the GOP realizes they can't just do away with whole departments of government, so strangling the funding is the next best thing. 

They may be philosophically behind abolishing the departments of education and energy, but since that is never going to pass Congress they instead reduce the budget a few percent a year until those departments are no longer viable.  Once those folks are doing a really shitty job, then they will have a stronger case for abolishing them.

And I'd argue that most of what my agency does is work that only comes to us because the private sector can't do it.  We're expressly forbidden by law from competing with private industry, but we have a ton of work because there are certain things private industry won't do or can't do.  Things like maintaining a century long environmental monitoring program, or cleaning up cold war waste sites, or resolving conflicts between other government agencies.

sol, not looking for a debate, just a general inquiry...what about putting your feelers out into the private sector? Not interested or is it not competitive salary/benefit wise?

In my field, the pay is much higher in the private sector even after accounting for government benefits like good health insurance and a pension plan.  Just on the pay stub, I make about half of what my private sector counterparts do, but after you figure in benefits I make more like 75% what they do.

Right now my biggest obstacle to moving jobs is family life.  We have kids in schools we like, and a house we love, and we can ride our bikes to work.  I'd probably have to commute to Seattle to make top dollar, and that's a hassle I'm not prepared to accept.  With five years of federal job experience I know I'm very marketable, but I don't really need the extra money and I'm kind of tied up in my life here.

The shutdown has made it very clear that we're not quite financially ready to retire for real, mostly because the house isn't paid off.  It has also caused me to reevaluate my employment options and decide that I'm riding out my civil service career for a few more years, despite higher paying alternatives.

[brewer12345]

Regarding #2: In my experience - and I'm going to phrase this carefully so as not to offend - the quality of government employees already suffers badly for the lack of competitive salaries relative to the private sector.

I agree this is a problem, especially for people nearing the ends of their careers who just sort of hang on indefinitely without being productive.  Not only does this negatively impact the work we do and our budget, as the rest of us have to pick up the slack, it's also an additional drag on motivation for younger employees.  If you can see examples of people getting paid to totally phone it in for the last ten years of their career, why would you retire early and forego those easy earnings?  Why not just show up and goof off at work all day?  As if pay freezes and sequester and furloughs weren't already management headwinds, now we have to deal with the very attractive option of being a slacker.  It's a problem.

And this environment strongly incents people to do as little as possible.  It kills morale and makes it very hard to give a damn or get more than the absolute minimum done.  It also means that your most able and go-getting employees tend to head for the door over time, leaving you with the B team (at best).  Foolish way to run anything, public or private.

[Mr.Macinstache]

In my field, the pay is much higher in the private sector even after accounting for government benefits like good health insurance and a pension plan.  Just on the pay stub, I make about half of what my private sector counterparts do, but after you figure in benefits I make more like 75% what they do.

Right now my biggest obstacle to moving jobs is family life.  We have kids in schools we like, and a house we love, and we can ride our bikes to work.  I'd probably have to commute to Seattle to make top dollar, and that's a hassle I'm not prepared to accept.  With five years of federal job experience I know I'm very marketable, but I don't really need the extra money and I'm kind of tied up in my life here.

The shutdown has made it very clear that we're not quite financially ready to retire for real, mostly because the house isn't paid off.  It has also caused me to reevaluate my employment options and decide that I'm riding out my civil service career for a few more years, despite higher paying alternatives.

Ok, I didn't know if it was a feasible option without moving. Since you have the down time I figured it might be something productive to look into since you sound unhappy with the downtime.

[simonsez]

They may be philosophically behind abolishing the departments of education and energy, but since that is never going to pass Congress they instead reduce the budget a few percent a year until those departments are no longer viable.  Once those folks are doing a really shitty job, then they will have a stronger case for abolishing them.

Indeed, this will be interesting to see how it plays out.  I cannot speak at all to any aspect of Energy but I work under Commerce basically akin to a contractor for Education but as a FT fed.  If the Dept of Ed does indeed go away, the work I do would still exist most likely, but would just move to the private sector (with individual states/localities paying for what the federal Dept of Ed does now) whereby driving up the costs IMO (economies of scale, federal labor is cheaper than private labor in the technical fields, etc.).  Either that or brain drain will occur with regard to the field of education, which would be a shame and would lead to (further?) decay of our educational system.

[nubbs180]

To say nothing of how much harder recruiters' jobs are now - I'm thinking a lot less seriously about work with the SEC/Fed/FDIC/OCC as a result of this mess, and I bet I'm not the only one.

Grant, The FDIC is a non-appropriated entity; they're still all "working like sled dogs" as my old man puts it!  And he'd know, he runs in that pack.

[grantmeaname]

To say nothing of how much harder recruiters' jobs are now - I'm thinking a lot less seriously about work with the SEC/Fed/FDIC/OCC as a result of this mess, and I bet I'm not the only one.

Grant, The FDIC is a non-appropriated entity; they're still all "working like sled dogs" as my old man puts it!  And he'd know, he runs in that pack.

Well, yes, as is the OCC. But many people rotate between the financial regulators and even if you wanted to work at one of them it would give you fewer options to rotate to. And the image problems apply to all of them.

[arebelspy]

My boss literally told me to watch CNN to find out when to report back to the office.

Here you go, per CNN:

Federal workers should expect to return to work Thursday morning

[simonsez]

Funny, arebelspy!

I kept checking the official status on OPM last night from about 11 p.m. ET onwards and it was still the big yellow exclamation point.  Then I get the MMM forum notification that you had added to this thread.  I immediately refresh the OPM site and BOOM, a nice green checkmark signifying open*. 

*-No way I was showing up only based on CNN or some OMB spokeswoman saying feds should report tomorrow.

[prof61820]

You raise a good point.  How to deal/handle the unstructured environment of retirement?  My mother retired at 62 with grand plans and now spends most of her time watching TV and, unfortunately, dealing with medical issues.  I think MMM is a good model to follow in the sense that you need some things to get excited about BEFORE retiring.  If not, you might want to continue working simply with the thought that you COULD retire if you felt like it.  This is also a wonderful feeling - and some may argue that it's a better feeling than being retired.

Here are a few things that I see MMM getting excited about and that have stayed with him in retirement.  They motivate him to work longer hours some days in "retirement" because he cares about them - unlike his former 9-5 gig.  MMM also has an infectious sense of optimism that keeps him rolling.  Having a plan and knowing yourself is important before pulling the early retirement plug, losing all your seniority and packing on the pounds in front of the tube/screen.

1.  Cycling
2.  Hiking
3.  Investing/Real Estate
4.  Writing
5.  Reading
6.  Efficiency

By the way, glad to see the shut down temporarily averted.  Now get back to work!

[dude]

I'm a Fed too (though I was excepted from the furlough).  I'm feelin' a lot of what you're saying, Sol! Though not about the early retirement part! Granted, I don't know what it feels like, but each time I'm away on an extended vacation, I realize more and more that I want to be done with this office work thing.  I like my job -- as jobs go -- and I'm incredibly grateful to have it; it is a key part of making my early retirement dream a reality.  But I'm tired of the commute and want the freedom to pursue things that truly interest me and provide personal fulfillment.  That being said, I do worry to some degree about not having others to play with, so to speak, when I retire, as the people I spend the most time with (in general, recreating) will all still be working Mon-Fri.  But I don't think it's an insurmountable obstacle, and I'm sure as hell looking forward to the opportunity to find out.  I've got 5 years to go until eligibility . . .

[arebelspy]

Funny, arebelspy!

I kept checking the official status on OPM last night from about 11 p.m. ET onwards and it was still the big yellow exclamation point.  Then I get the MMM forum notification that you had added to this thread.  I immediately refresh the OPM site and BOOM, a nice green checkmark signifying open*. 

*-No way I was showing up only based on CNN or some OMB spokeswoman saying feds should report tomorrow.

Sorry, I decided to update this thread with funny pictures before I changed that status.  Figured it was more important.

[fallstoclimb]

We're back at work now, but Sol I felt the same way you did.  I had an existential crisis that had little to do with the uncertainty of our time off (although that didn't help) and was more about all my free time.  How can you look forward to relaxing when there's nothing to relax from?  But it wasn't like I was looking forward to going back to work exactly, I like my job but its still a job.  I spent my time off "wisely"....lots of biking, saw some friends, did some house projects....but I still felt completely lost without a purpose in my day and tackled the house projects a little frenetically to try to manage the constant anxiety I was facing.

I agree that it makes me wonder about retirement.  BUT, if I was retired I imagine I would get involved in some volunteer organization or another, which would help.  My goal has always been about just having more freedom, so that doesn't change.

[DoubleDown]

I think it would be a big mistake to associate the gov. shutdown furlough experience with what ER life would be like. I understand the obvious connection of "time off", but it's very much a phantom connection. It would be like comparing eating a nice dessert because you've been looking forward to it and planned it in your diet, to eating the same dessert not because you want it, but only as a way to get down the cancer medicine you're taking in an uncertain and anxious attempt to save your life. Same dessert, very different association and meaning to you.

The furloughs represented:

• Unplanned (and mostly unwanted) time off, with a very uncertain duration (changed day to day, no ability to plan any activity or project since you could be called back to work at any time)
• Uncertainty/anxiety over when you would receive your next paycheck
• Uncertainty/anxiety over whether you would ever receive pay for the time off
• All happening in the context of a completely dysfunctional employer and concern over the country's direction
• Implied (or in some cases explicit) devaluation of your "worth" as an employee (such as being called "non-essential") or tea party types insinuating it would just be better if half or more of the federal employees never came back to work

I think a person's attitude towards what they would do in ER dictates just about everything, and the shutdown in no way is associated with a planned ER attitude. I am certain things will be much different when you leave work, on your own terms, able to do all the things you want without the uncertainty and negativity of the shutdown polluting everything, and a plan (even if vague) of how you'd like to spend your days without the constraint of being called back to the office at any moment.

@Sol, or others with similar feelings: Also, I bet you never internally gave yourself permission to do nothing. You felt you should be doing something -- that is, you wanted to be at work doing what you feel is important, and mostly sitting around was the only real alternative offered with an unplanned layoff of uncertain duration. I often remember the stories I've read somewhere on MMM that when you ER, you'll likely want to just chill out for a couple of months. If you just go in with that attitude, then after a couple of months you will naturally develop a motivation to do some bigger things and take on some interesting projects or activities. Again, much different experience than a temporary layoff.

[Another Reader]

I'm not convinced the folks at the IRS were ever on furlough.  I mailed in a check when I filed the return on Tuesday (October 15).  It was CASHED yesterday (October 16) and deducted from my account.  So unless someone stole it, the IRS folks, at least the ones that process incoming money, were working yesterday.

[Paul der Krake]

I'm not convinced the folks at the IRS were ever on furlough.  I mailed in a check when I filed the return on Tuesday (October 15).  It was CASHED yesterday (October 16) and deducted from my account.  So unless someone stole it, the IRS folks, at least the ones that process incoming money, were working yesterday.

Yep, they had people processing money coming in, but nobody writing checks back out.

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/15/234833260/the-irs-cant-take-your-questions-it-will-take-your-return